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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Jan 29, 2014 - 05:57pm PT
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Wasn't it the very next month after the Red Rocks botch job that Jeff "The Chisel Champion" Jackson published his essay on the virtues of rock modification?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jan 29, 2014 - 06:10pm PT
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Just looking for a little journalistic integrity, tough to find these days.
How is "journalistic integrity" qualitatively different than what you feel or believe? Are you suggesting that there is some stand-alone, objective position, absolutely free of biases, to which Jeff and Rock and Ice are none the wiser to, but you are? If so, what is it, in plain English?
So far, what I have read sounds more like a personal issue with you staking claim on some imaginary high ground. What is the real issue here, in your opinion - NOT what Rock & Ice are doing, but with the topics themselves?
JL
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Jan 29, 2014 - 06:32pm PT
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Largo,
I'm not sure I completely understand your question.
As far as my comments, I believe it is irresponsible for a magazine to have the headlines, "Climbers disobey Red Rock bolting ban". Said article continues with a harsh judgment of the land managers and their handling of climbing at Red Rocks. I believe we should be working with, not against, land managers to solve these issues we have with management of public lands.
I haven't seen the latest issue dealing with climbing on banned Navajo lands, yet from what I gather from what is written here, it does not seem wise for a magazine to be promoting climbing on prohibited lands.
I won't sugar coat it, my beef with Jackson is personal, too. I believe the man and his magazine owe the climbing world a sincere, heartfelt apology for the damages they have caused to access. I know that life is not fair, but it does not seem reasonable that a tiny minority is making money (however slight) at the expense of the world climbing community.
AN
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2014 - 07:05pm PT
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Journalistic integrity has nothing to do with my climbing ethics. It's a measure of how fairly and honestly a publication presents the writings of others and editorializes about sensitive issues in a non-destructive manner. Perhaps Rock and Ice is out to stir up sh#t with the 'powers that be' but more likely they're just trying to sell glossy paper.
The topics themselves...are not the issue here, it's how they're being treated by this publication.
And when I say journalistic integrity is rare, I'm also referring to the published word beyond Carbondale's little piece of crap.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Jan 29, 2014 - 07:26pm PT
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The ban on climbing in the navajolands was first informed on the climbing community in the June 1971 Summit mag (I am staring at the letter).
I believe it is a major disservice to relations between climbers and the navajo leadership with this article coming out. The chances of opening the reservation to permitted climbing are now going to be set back a decade because Haas et al had to show off for his advertisers. I have spoken to Quentin about climbing on the res, but I doubt he understands what the tribal elders will think and what their actions will be. I know for now, the police will be out in force until this is settled.
by the way, the shot through the tree of angel wing is not the bandito route but the back side 'oreo girls' because I was there first mo fos.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Jan 29, 2014 - 07:31pm PT
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I believe it is a major disservice to relations between climbers and the navajo leadership with this article coming out.
1+
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jan 29, 2014 - 07:38pm PT
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How is "journalistic integrity" qualitatively different than what you feel or believe? Are you suggesting that there is some stand-alone, objective position, absolutely free of biases, to which Jeff and Rock and Ice are none the wiser to, but you are? If so, what is it, in plain English?
My own take would be that journalistic integrity is not a position at all, but a goal.
No journalist can ever achieve a stand-alone, free-of-bias position. But good journalists try to be as objective as they can within all the constraints they have to deal with. Some do better than others.
I have a beef with the Forbidden Peak article. It tries to pin blame for a fatal rappelling accident on the actions of a specific NPS ranger, who is named. A very serious, heavy accusation. The accusation is not supported by the facts presented in the article. Repercussions from a well-known climbers' magazine making such accusations may haunt climber-NPS negotiations over access and fixed anchors for years to come. So the accusations against the ranger in question are unfounded and also detrimental to the climbing community.
Whether the fault lies with Jackson or with some unnamed editor who hacked his article to pieces and added a nasty title I don't know.
Anyway, a thread like this can be good feedback for the R&I people, help them tread more carefully, achieve more "journalistic integrity" in the future.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jan 29, 2014 - 07:39pm PT
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+ 2
It is not so much about journalism as it is about respect. This kind of thing won't get you very much on the Rez. You have to give it to get it.
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telemon01
Trad climber
Montana
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Jan 29, 2014 - 08:05pm PT
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I canceled my subscription to R&I years ago; piece of sh#t climbing drivel is all it is
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Jan 30, 2014 - 08:42am PT
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Is Rock and Ice Magazine really, "A magazine for climbers, by climbers"?
I sincerely hope that the Federal and Tribal Law Enforcement Officers reading this thread realize that this magazine in no way represents the view of many climbers.
crunch, that is too bad about the bolt chopping piece, it sounds like the article was not well thought out.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jan 30, 2014 - 09:52am PT
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BASE used to not only be legal on the Res, it was admired. We would go down to the park service office and get out permit to enter Canyon de Chelly, meet up with our Navajo guide (don't dare go into that place without your legally required guide), and then jump all that we wanted.
It closed down when the park service district manager found out about it, but it had been going on for years. We were very discrete. We never allowed any pics to be published, that kind of stuff.
I remember one thanksgiving where our guide invited us to his house for thangsgiving dinner. We were told to sit at the small table while all of the women, kids, and old folks sat on the floor to eat.
The walls were covered with BASE photographs from Carl Boenish onwards.
After the ban, which was not the idea of the Navajo, we stopped going in there. The Navajo really do not like white people going in there without paying. Out of respect, since we could no longer pay a guide without getting him into trouble, we stopped. It was a damn good site, too.
We were always more than happy to pay our guide, and one time we found a new site that was owned by a 90 year old woman who didn't speak English. We paid her for the opportunity, and her grandson's drove her in with her sitting in a big recliner in the back of an old pickup. They built a warm fire and we jumped all day with her watching, and obviously having a good time.
So yes, part of it is about money. The other part of it is about the poverty of the reservation, and a general dislike of white folks who bullied their way around without paying, in some way, for the permission of the Navajo.
Of course I have friends who have done Spider Rock and the Totem Pole. If they catch you, they won't be happy. When whitey visits the res, he is not the boss. A lot of it revolves around that last sentence.
Having been entertained and treated with far more respect than we deserved, none of us ever went back to jump. Others still do it, but if you set foot in the Canyon floor without permission, expect to get your ass handed to you if you are caught.
If I were caught, I would first offer a nice chunk of change.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jan 30, 2014 - 10:09am PT
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I also happen to know the Rock & Ice staff fairly well. Jeff Jackson is without a doubt the nicest guy that I've ever met. A good writer to boot.
All of this "I don't read the rags anymore" is almost synonymous with the phrase, "I don't climb anymore." Anyone who is climbing hard reads the mags, and they have taken Rock & Ice to the top. Climbing mag is the one that was bought by a big corporation. The main crew at Climbing all quit at once and then pooled their money to buy Rock & Ice. They mortgaged their houses and bet the farm, so they damn sure do care about the magazine.
I rarely read it, but it is because I'm old, fat, and don't climb anymore.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jan 30, 2014 - 10:22am PT
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"Unbiased journalisim is a contradiction of terms."
Hunter S Thompson
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 30, 2014 - 10:39am PT
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Amen, Jaybro. If they had any pretense to being unbiased they would voluntarily refrain from using adjectives and adverbs.
"Just the facts, ma'am"
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jan 30, 2014 - 12:00pm PT
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The climbing world has always been big enough to hold all opinions, included the ones stated here. As I have said for years - having known all the people involved with the mags - the publication is only as good as the contributions. If you disagree or want to improve the thing, contribute and do us all proud. Lobbing bombs from the sidelines feels passive aggressive to me, especially when personal issues are driving things.
Also, there are many ways to look at something. The evidence against the ranger chopping the anchor is much more than what was presented and is pretty harrowing if you know the whole story. Likewise, just because some land manager declares a ban on bolting in the entire Red Rocks, those not heeding the decree are "criminals" to some and just climbers to others. These are all just words, depending on your title.
Climbers have always considered themselves the last word on what is good and not so good about land management issues. What you have there is a control issue and those with an authority streak will always side with the feds - others, not so much. Seeking a sober, rational relationship with the feds on this account has always been a thorny issue - not because of prickly climbers, but because the feds loath being questioned, and especially hate being singled out for, say, destroying a rappel anchor.
What you see at play here is human nature, having little to nothing to do with journalism.
JL
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jan 30, 2014 - 12:16pm PT
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I agree with John Long. The article about climbing on the Rez talks about what is unfolding now that there are a few Navajo climbers and that some "land owners" are giving "permission" to climb a few of the taboo towers. This is what is going on currently. This may or may not piss off some people; both Navajos and off Rez climbers. You may or may not agree with what is going on currently on the Rez. Reading the article doesn't necessarily mean that climbers will flock to the area to climb. Maybe this article will set things back years as far as policy and the Navajo Nation;....maybe it will bring about awareness and change and open things up some.....who knows?......Irresponsible journalism?....I think not;.....Jason is just talking about a real place that exists and what is going on now-a-days. Like it or not;..it's real and it exists. Are there problems out there....you bet. It's not a place for pussies. There are climbing access issues, bad rock, shitty roads, foul weather, bad anchors, wild Indians, booze, wind, cold, blazing heat, isolation, sketchy pro, lack of climbing beta, no climbing gyms, no climbing stores, no
Starbucks, no McDonalds or Walmarts (not enough)..........no wonder I like climbing out there so much;..it's got all MY favorite things........
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Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
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Jan 30, 2014 - 12:28pm PT
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CRUSHER: your book is such an amazing gathering of historical info, in Canada we have "Pushing the Limits' as our pride and joy for a hardcover heirloom.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 30, 2014 - 12:31pm PT
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You're right they don't like whitey.
When I was there they thought Kauk and my wife Merry were Indians so they loved them and I was the the white nigger ......
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Jan 30, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
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Totally off topic, but i just had to expand on this a little.
Feeding pot to 3-year-olds? On the face of it this is criminal and totally immoral. And yet....
The low thc strains they are feeding these kids contain high levels of cannabinol which is what helps these poor kids lead a more normal life. Without the harsh side effects of pharmaceuticals.
As far as r&i goes, overhyping things is a standard way to sell them. Seems like a pretty standard tactic these days. Doesn't make it right, by any means, but all the cool kids are doing it!! Lol
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telemon01
Trad climber
Montana
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Jan 30, 2014 - 03:27pm PT
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Base 104- good points on the worthiness of Rock and Ice. It sounds as though it has changed a lot since I used to read it. I just remember the "Schlock and Vice" days and I shiver. Time flies...
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