Climber kills another climber with a hammer

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Messages 1 - 87 of total 87 in this topic
CA.Timothy

climber
California
Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 15, 2014 - 12:42pm PT
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/David-DiPaolo-Geoffrey-Farrar-Man-Accused-of-Killing-Fellow-Climber-With-Claw-Hammer-240162931.html



This may have been posted already, but I just came across it online. CRAZY!
CA.Timothy

climber
California
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 15, 2014 - 12:42pm PT
be warned the reporting is pretty horrible
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Jan 15, 2014 - 01:01pm PT
"Rock Climbing Official"


yay Media!

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 15, 2014 - 01:08pm PT
When the media addresses climbing they NEVER get it right. Are we to assume they get things we are less knowledgeable right?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 15, 2014 - 01:13pm PT
The guy is obviously not a clean climber.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 15, 2014 - 02:20pm PT
You're a moRong.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jan 15, 2014 - 02:24pm PT
I knew this thread would draw a gun related comment within 10 posts.

Anyway, what a crazy crime. Who brings a claw hammer to go climbing? Were they pulling vegetation out of cracks or something?
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jan 15, 2014 - 02:29pm PT
Sad story, condolences.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 15, 2014 - 02:31pm PT
a man is dead, horrible

the suspect claimed he "found" the claw hammer off the trail?

he was arrested in New York two days later, far from the crime site

claimed they had an argument....
crunch

Social climber
CO
Jan 15, 2014 - 02:31pm PT
Who brings a claw hammer to go climbing?

Umm, me......

Reeotch

climber
4 Corners Area
Jan 15, 2014 - 02:40pm PT
You ain't gettin' my hammer!
That's where I draw the line.
Urmas

Social climber
Sierra Eastside
Jan 15, 2014 - 02:45pm PT
Yeah Crunch, I remember your stories of that ascent. Still the most epic sufferfest I have heard of on the Captain, at least where no one died!

Hope you're doin' well, old buddy!
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Jan 15, 2014 - 02:46pm PT
Hammer the point home that this isn't about guns.

Sure, guns got hammers. But when hammers are finally outlawed, only climbers will still have a few stashed.

I'm an old drunken "hammer."
Not a funnkin' spammer...
From up on the Rio Grama.
Git a Rong, rittle doggie, git a Rong...

What about all the "attempts at Suicide" we keep hearing about in the climbing media, huh?

No one suggests that is a problem. How narrow-minded. :0)

Laughter in the face of death: One coping method.

Anastasia

climber
Home
Jan 15, 2014 - 03:01pm PT
Unless in an act of protection, I don't see how anything can be worth killing another.

In fact most fights I see are about small stupid issues, egos and yeah, egos. C'mon folks, when are we all going to get tired of being angry and miserable and find excuses for being happy instead. Yes, excuses because really, half the times we are miserable and angry is because we choose it.


AFS
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Jan 15, 2014 - 03:07pm PT
Oh, dream on...
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Jan 15, 2014 - 03:13pm PT
Does this mean I need to start carrying a gun when I go climbing in case my partner wants to whack me with a hammer?

Is there a greasemonkey script that shows a person's rap sheet next to their supertopo alias? What about their list of current/previous prescriptions?
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Jan 15, 2014 - 03:20pm PT
"Young man, my name's Bubba. Yer in the Rong bunk. Have you any 'ludes?"
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jan 15, 2014 - 03:21pm PT
guy is 31, hardly a 'youth'

he has a history of mental illness, so i would actually believe his story that he (believed) he was being strangled and responded with violent force. aka paranoid delusions

i hope he is assessed and gets the help he needs instead of ending up in solitary

in any case, he has to live with the guilt that he killed his 20 year friend and climbing mentor.

very sad.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Jan 15, 2014 - 03:27pm PT
Ron you kind of need to get a life.

Advice I'm sure you'll ignore, but hey just thought you should know you're pretty much ruining it for everyone else here.

Crazy shat about the claw hammer I'm sure there's nothing about that piddly little choss pile worth dying over.
Christopher Paik

Trad climber
md
Jan 15, 2014 - 09:37pm PT
Something a little off-putting about the tone here -- unless you are the sort of person who doesn't mind jokes when one of your friends goes splat --
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 15, 2014 - 09:46pm PT
There was an earlier thread here which had minimally more tact: http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2311879/RIP-Geoff-Farrar

Christopher said:
"Something a little off-putting about the tone here -- unless you are the sort of person who doesn't mind jokes when one of your friends goes splat -- "

We all use to do that sort of thing around the campfire (classic Roper story from the 1960's of finding the dead guy in LA Chimney and yelling down that the dead guys down coat didn't fit as an example), it doesn't carry over well to the internet where family searches can bring up total bullsh#t. This is some pretty strange stuff, and it's still damned sad for the old guy who got killed family and friends. Thanks for the reminder.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
Jan 15, 2014 - 10:12pm PT
I am never impressed till stuff like this involves backhoes.

clinker

Trad climber
California
Jan 15, 2014 - 10:17pm PT
"Typical white
boy behavior."

Now that is a racist making a racist comment.
Rudbud

Gym climber
Grover Beach, CA
Jan 15, 2014 - 10:18pm PT
Did it have something to do with a disagreement on ethics? If so does anyone know what there handles where on the taco?
abrams

Sport climber
Jan 15, 2014 - 10:55pm PT
Someone find some pictures of the base of the rock where
'it' happened. Why was a hammer just laying there? Was someone
building a port-a ledge or a rain shelter?
v.

climber
Jan 16, 2014 - 12:02am PT
geoff will be missed immensely. he is a huge loss to the carderock climbing community.
if you wish, view actual affidavit by criminal investigator here
http://www.scribd.com/doc/199906565/David-DiPaolo-affidavit
note that poor geoff had hits on his hands/arms...
jstan

climber
Jan 16, 2014 - 12:49am PT
I was at Carderock between 67 and 83. Don't remember Geoff however. Carderock has always been a great place to talk to friends and get in a bit of running after work. Spent many fine hours there. This is horrible beyond belief.


GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jan 16, 2014 - 01:33am PT
So sad to hear. Have respect people, this was one of us.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Jan 17, 2014 - 03:03am PT
They also say they questioned him about these lacerations, thus implying they were hammer blows, but the medical examiner labels them "lacerations", which is technically defined as a jagged tear of the skin distinctly different from an incision. Given I cant imagine repeated hammer blows to the hands would result in "lacerations", but instead do fit well with someone trying to remove that persons hands if they were choking them, I imagine this is why manslaughter was filed instead of murder.

I was a carpenter for 40 years. I guarantee you I can give you lacerations with the claw end of a hammer.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Jan 17, 2014 - 10:37am PT
Y'all need to really worry when your partner brings along the #1 murder weapon in the USA: a baseball bat; ball and peen hammers are ranked #2. At least according to the FBI...
little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
Jan 17, 2014 - 03:06pm PT
Looking over the Rock And Ice article on Honnold's latest solo I saw a link to an article on the incident written by long time local climber Hunt Prothro. Thoughtful and well written, for those who care. http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/carderock-geoff-farrar-killed-by-climbing-friend
v.

climber
Jan 19, 2014 - 11:33am PT
absolutely agree. very well written and carefully thought out. that is our irreplaceable carderock geoff.
One day, I was by the cliff and watched as this Pekingese approached. It was growling, barking, and angry and I wondered why. Then alongside it, I saw dave and realized that the dog belonged to him. I have never seen a dog behave that way towards his “master”. it was amusing at first...
David Plotnikoff

Mountain climber
Emerald Hills, CA
Jan 31, 2014 - 05:23am PT
This is the latest as of 1.30.14, from the Washington Post.

Bristow, Va., man indicted on manslaughter charge in fellow rock climber’s death

By Matt Zapotosky, Published: January 30

A rock climber who authorities say killed a fellow climber in the Carderock Recreation Area near Potomac was formally indicted Wednesday on a federal voluntary manslaughter charge.

David DiPaolo, 31, of Bristow, Va., was arrested earlier this month in connection with the death of 69-year-old Geoffrey Farrar, who was found bleeding from the head and lying mortally injured at the base of a cliff near the Billy Goat Trail in Montgomery County on Dec. 28.

Word initially spread through the rock-climbing community that Farrar — known to some by the nickname “Carderock Geoff” because he was such a fixture at the recreation area that is part of the Chesapeake and Ohio Canal National Historical Park — had taken a tragic fall.

Federal investigators, however, found his injuries were not consistent with a fall, but instead with blows with blows from a silver-colored claw hammer that was found on the ground nearby.

According to court documents, DiPaolo told police that Farrar tried to choke him at the base of a cliff. Fearing that he was about to lose consciousness, DiPaolo told police, he hit Farrar in the head with the hammer, according to a criminal complaint.

DiPaolo’s father, Vincent, has said his son — who met Farrar at Carderock 20 years ago as an 11-year-old interested in climbing — was “no murderer” but would act to defend himself. No lawyer was listed for David DiPaolo in court records Thursday.

DiPaolo had already been charged with manslaughter in connection with the death, and the indictment is merely a formal step to move the case through court. He was scheduled to appear in federal district court in Greenbelt, Md., Thursday, prosecutors said.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Jan 31, 2014 - 01:08pm PT
At least he didn't use an ice ax, either store bought or custom.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 31, 2014 - 01:09pm PT
You can have my hammer IF you can pry it from my cold, dead fingers!
weezy

climber
Jan 31, 2014 - 01:21pm PT

all you big tough guys need hammers to compensate for your tiny penises.

obama's coming to take your claw hammer, you nutjobs.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 31, 2014 - 08:48pm PT
All I got to say is he'd better be afeared of the pointy end if he shows up. Cold, dead fingers, I tell ya!

And prolly both hands too!

v.

climber
Feb 3, 2014 - 10:32pm PT
Latest update... so on the ball.
Http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/climbing/rock-climbing/Hammer-Blow-The-True-Story-of-the-Carderock-Murder.html
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Feb 3, 2014 - 11:41pm PT
From the article linked by V. :

"...and more than a tiny bit of hand-wringing by national climbing groups concerned that this incident might somehow be interpreted as another sign that the heyday of traditional rock climbing, and the largesse of the industries that support it, may be drawing to a close"




Huh?

A little something from the author of that article to support that claim would have been nice.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Feb 4, 2014 - 12:23am PT
real reporting. fascinating story
Gunks Guy

Trad climber
New Paltz, NY
Apr 27, 2016 - 05:13pm PT
"David DiPaolo, 33, will likely be sentenced to 10 to 15 years in prison."

"DiPaolo came back and found Farrar. DiPaolo was carrying his claw hammer, a climbing implement that soon became a deadly weapon." Great reporting.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/rock-climber-pleads-guilty-to-killing-his-mentor-with-a-claw-hammer/2016/02/08/2b347826-cea6-11e5-b2bc-988409ee911b_story.html
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 27, 2016 - 05:55pm PT
You can tell it's an "assault hammer" by the style of grip. And those should be illegal for the common climber to own. Who needs an assault-style hammer except for the professionals?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Apr 27, 2016 - 06:00pm PT
Locals only.....braj
WBraun

climber
Apr 27, 2016 - 06:30pm PT
Obama will now take yer hammer away.

Only pin head hammers allowed for Americans ....
overwatch

climber
Arizona
Apr 27, 2016 - 06:31pm PT
post deleted due to poor taste
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 27, 2016 - 06:52pm PT
HAHAHA Richard !

Congratulations on all that thinking that led you to compare a hammer with an automatic rifle.

HAHAHA Jim!

Congratulations on all that thinking that led you to think that the tool of choice is the problem.
zBrown

Ice climber
Apr 27, 2016 - 07:31pm PT
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 27, 2016 - 07:53pm PT
And I'm humbled in your effort to restate and confirm my point !

Perhaps as humbled as I am by your efforts, but doubtful.

Oh, wait. I'm not doing it right....

But DOUBTFUL.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Apr 27, 2016 - 08:51pm PT
Congratulations on all that thinking that led you to think that the tool of choice is the problem.

Saying there is no difference between a hammer and high powered semiautomatic rifle with a 30 round clip (well you didn't say that be we are paraphrasing here right?) is ridiculous. How many mass killings were committed with a hammer?

Mental illness is the root of the problem, but the tool available is a huge problem when NRA types won't allow any limits to keep those tools out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them.

I'm not for banning "assault" rifles, but I am for reasonable regulations that will keep them out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 27, 2016 - 09:41pm PT
How many mass killings were committed with a hammer?

Or clubs? Or fire? Or whatever? Depends on what country you're in.

Mental illness is the root of the problem

Regarding "mass killings" (properly defined, since the common definition of "3 or more" is a ridiculous line to draw), you're probably right. But as a nation we've now fully conflated moral failings with "mental illness." The phrase has become a catch-all that is frightening in its ubiquity.

... keep those tools out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them.

"Shouldn't have them" as defined by who? More on that question in a moment.

I'm not for banning "assault" rifles, but I am for reasonable regulations that will keep them out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them.

Your "line" seems more reasonable to me than most, but it's just YOUR line. While I might agree, that would be just MY line. But why should WE (even a majority, as defined in Federalist 10 as "majority faction") get to decide regarding the rights of others? That question leads directly to....

"Shouldn't have them." Quick story.

A man in my church just two weeks ago told me that he had gone in to buy a handgun. The background check found that he was on the federal terrorist watch list, so he failed the background check and was declined the sale.

Now he's in the very process of trying to figure out WHY he's on the list and get OFF of it! Meanwhile, without ANY due process of law or conviction of ANY crime, he is denied the exercise of his constitutionally-guaranteed right.

He's just one example that happens to be "close to home," but these sorts of cases will multiply. And when you get the (itself whacked out) mental-"health" industry involved, you'll have more and more cases of people who should NOT be denied their right, but they will be, just because "somebody" said, "shouldn't have them."

"Oh, Joe seems angry to me this last week. I'm gonna call the authorities and have them take Joe's guns. I know, it's just my 'assessment,' but I'm frightened, and my feelings necessarily trump Joe's rights." We're already THERE in some states, and the feds WANT that slippery slope to end up all the way to the bottom.

Furthermore, if you take drug-related and gang-related shootings out of the statistics (which are not going to be "solved" by ANY proposed legislation), and you take suicides out of the statistics (more on that in a moment), you are MORE likely to be killed by walking... that's right, walking, than being killed by a gun. I posted the WHO statistics on this on one of the gun-control threads.

Regarding suicides, you might say, "Classic examples of 'shouldn't have them," but you face at least three problems there:

1) You usually cannot tell enough in advance in order to "ensure" that a suicidal person isn't going to gain access to a gun.

2) Even if you can, and you succeed in "preventing" the suicide at that point in time, will you then forever after deny that person access to a gun (as if you could)? No? Well, then, you have "prevented a suicide" in one narrow time-slice for a subset of potential "victims," but you will not keep somebody intent on offing themselves from doing so unless you "make it harder" enough that you just keep them in a padded cell. And, fundamentally, it's our RIGHT to off ourselves at will (although I fully grant and have repeatedly engaged in the efforts to talk people out of it).

3) What gives ANY of us the right to legally deny such a person their constitutional right to a gun, when they are not a danger to anybody else's rights? Educate, counsel, intervene... yes, yes, and yes. But legally deprive somebody of their rights without due process of law just because "somebody" asserts that somebody else "might be suicidal?" I mean, where can you possibly draw principled lines here?

So, yes, suicidal people will "more easily" kill themselves with access to a gun. That's a lot of (at least temporarily) "preventable" tragedy if only guns could be completely eliminated! But guns cannot be eliminated, and even if you could somehow legislate just the right lines around just the right people (all the suicidal ones, and not any that are not really suicidal), you could not keep guns out of their hands. As an example of legal access, no proposed legislation would have kept even Holmes from access to the weapons he used.

Thus, you're left with some statistical realities:

1) The majority of murderous shootings CANNOT be prevented by any slate of gun-control, because the people doing the shootings are druggies/gangland types that laughingly flout the law already. So, the people you would agree are MOST "not supposed to have them" are the very ones you cannot in principle keep from having them. You can't even make it "somewhat hard" for them to have them!

2) The suicides will largely not be prevented by any slate of proposed legislation, because you will either have to keep "such people" in a padded room forever or finally agree that their "right to bear arms" is restored, at which time they can yet again enter a suicidal state from which you won't rescue them the next time. Meanwhile, they are no threat to others, and the government is NOT about protecting me from myself (otherwise we had better have sweeping anti-fat, anti-free-soloing, etc. laws IMMEDIATELY); it's about protecting the rights of people from the infringements of others (which, ironically, it seems to forget in its present lust to infringe the rights of law-abiding citizens in its quest to "solve" completely the wrong "problems").

3) Take (1) and (2) out of the mix, and you're left with a higher probability of walking yourself to death than dying by gunshot. So, it's a problem NOT in need of a solution, particularly not at the federal level!

And if you could somehow manage to eliminate guns, or "keep them out of the hands of those who shouldn't have them," then we'd become like countries where people kill each other with knives, fire, and, yes, hammers. And we WOULD do even that more frequently than many other countries, because we have an epic GANG problem and other problems that many other countries do not have, which are problems of PEOPLE rather than of implements.

And, yes, just as Australia found, when you reduce mass-shootings, the perps then proceed to kill about as many people using fire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Australia

Look at the implement of choice following the gun-ban of 1996. Count up murders in the relevant years prior to and following the buy-back and ban in 1996, and you'll see nary a difference in the numbers, just in the implement of choice. Fire (mostly), stabbing, clubbing, and a few people shot.

The gun-ban had zero statistical effect on mass murders in Australia; it simply changed the implement.

So, I have zero confidence that we even CAN "keep them out of the hands of people that shouldn't have them" for many reasons, and even if you could, we have zero reason to think that it can be done without violating a LOT of legitimate peoples' rights, as "shouldn't have them" is already misused and will only become more so.

Now, can somebody tell me how my friend is supposed to PROVE his "innocence" and get off of a watch list he should not be on? He can't go to trial, because he's not on trial. He's CHARGED with nothing whatsoever! Yet, just being on the list denies him his rights. Please explain this one to me, with solutions!
MisterE

Gym climber
Small Town with a Big Back Yard
Apr 27, 2016 - 09:50pm PT
Anyone else notice how the fire of conviction has been lit under Jim Brennan's ass in the last year or so?

He used to be a moderate-posting kind of guy.

What changed Jim? A little SADS? It's what drove me out of the PNW.

Maybe a drier environ would suit you?

I know it did wonders for me - just sayin'
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Apr 27, 2016 - 10:28pm PT
MB-
Furthermore, if you take drug-related and gang-related shootings out of the statistics (which are not going to be "solved" by ANY proposed legislation), and you take suicides out of the statistics (more on that in a moment), you are MORE likely to be killed by walking... that's right, walking, than being killed by a gun. I posted the WHO statistics on this on one of the gun-control threads

For argument sake- let's summarily dismiss the most prolific cause of gun violence (drugs and gangs) and because this source of violence does not statistically include middle aged men like myself, let's also consider gun legislation for inner cities as having no affect on white middle aged men.

So let's move on to the overriding subject matter; because I have waved my well manicured, pink hand- the notion of gun legislation is an exercise in futility (as it statistically relates to me). I say divert more revenue towards sidewalk repair in suburban areas!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 27, 2016 - 10:55pm PT
For argument sake- let's summarily dismiss the most prolific cause of gun violence (drugs and gangs)

If only we could.

Well, actually, we could address this "most prolific cause."

Consider that "the epidemic of gun violence" and gangs were essentially non-existent prior to prohibition. What did prohibition get us as a nation?

1) Gangs, specifically an organized approach to crime that was virtually unknown in this country.

2) Income taxes and an IRS to enforce them in Gestapo-like fashion (remember what got Capone).

3) Ultimately the end of prohibition but not the baleful results of it.

A few decades later, we go for "prohibition" regarding "drugs" (well, the arbitrarily-defined subset of them). And what motivated that new prohibition?

The case is compelling that it was largely racially-motivated, as an effort to wave a legislative wand over "minorities" and thereby criminalize them.

What did we get as a nation from this new prohibition?

1) GANGS! Epic levels of gangland activity and its associated non-drug-related crime and associated violence at levels never-before seen.

2) Filled courts and prisons (mostly by non-violent, mere-possession "offenders").

3) No perceptible reduction in the quantity of available drugs nor frequency of usage.

4) Increased types of drugs made available to an eager (black) market.

5) Hundreds of billions spent and thousands of lives lost in this utter failure of a "war on drugs."

6) Ever-increasing government involvement in the lives of everyday citizens (under the rubric of keeping us "safe").

"Prohibition" of any item-for-sale for which there is an eager market must necessarily fail, and the resulting black market will necessarily empower and enrich those ruthless enough to "rise to the top" of the supply side.

Legalizing drugs (as was done with alcohol after the end of prohibition) would produce a legitimate revenue stream (rather than cost billions in wasted dollars) and remove a significant gangland revenue source. Legalize other "vices" such as prostitution and gambling, and you undo the revenue streams and motivations of gangland America.

It is the federal involvement in criminalizing (thereby moralizing about) particular victimless behaviors that has fed the emergence and violence of gangland America. And, yes, with those hundreds of billions, we could have fixed a lot of sidewalks (thereby actively reducing walking deaths).

Laws that exist to protect people from themselves qua individuals are doomed to fail, and we can only thereby create black markets. These "wars on" are a waste in every sense.

I want the feds legislating LESS, even undoing obviously failed laws that they had no right to make in the first place. Let them do THAT rather than to perpetually make more laws to "fix" the messes their previous laws caused!

As Tacitus said: "In a state where corruption abounds, laws must be very numerous." A perhaps better translation is: "The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws."

Quit with the "prohibitions" of "moralizing," and, amazingly, the FREE market will make gangs (and their associated violence) largely a thing of the past.

Finally, I see a great irony in pro-choice people actively fighting laws designed to "make otherwise legal abortions so difficult to obtain that they are functionally illegal," while these same people want to "make it difficult" for law-abiding citizens to exercise a right explicitly recognized and mentioned in the Bill of Rights (recently interpreted, and rightly so, by the SCOTUS as an individual right).

Somehow the argument that, "if you make it difficult to obtain, you will reduce the incidence of abuses" seems to "work" for them regarding guns but not abortions (which are nowhere mentioned in the constitution).

My point is that "prohibition" does not work! It doesn't work with alcohol, drugs, abortions, OR guns. And you can't honestly cherry-pick among the "wars on" your particular moral leanings happen to "support" as "necessary."

Yup, let's fix some sidewalks and quit "prohibiting," particularly at the federal level!
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Apr 27, 2016 - 11:15pm PT
I'm pleased you didn't blow up at my wise-ass barb- but Tacitus? I want to debate each and every point so bad but your late night filibuster wins the day...
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Apr 28, 2016 - 02:45pm PT
Mad presents a moderately cohesive argument, or so it seems. His biggest trick is to suggest that we want anything more than the 'regulation' guaranteed by the constitution. "Well Regulated".

Then he shows his true colors by bringing up Women's healthcare and his "Religious Establishment Laws" against abortion.

He's a conservative white guy who regurgitates the best of a very poor argument to promote a punitive authoritarianism based on an arbitrary and capricious creation mythology.

He is a wordy anti intellectual.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Apr 28, 2016 - 02:58pm PT
Climber kills another climber with a hammer
Eric Sloan- Perhaps you may want to rethink your dream of a "climber's camp" at Yosemite?
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Apr 28, 2016 - 05:03pm PT
In Australia, after a number of mass shootings, they had a country-wide gun turn in, where a lot of people who really did not need guns, turned them in. Deaths from gun violence went down. I believe it was voluntary, but I don't know the entire story.

In China, a man went berserk with a knife and stabbed 25 people or so, but they all survived. With a high powered automatic, the same man could have killed 25-50 people. He was mentally ill, that is the root cause, but it is still true that guns make it possible for these people to kill a lot more than they can without one. Private citizens are not allowed to own artillery, grenades, or nuclear weapons, don't know why people are so ga-ga about guns.
Gunks Guy

Trad climber
New Paltz, NY
Apr 28, 2016 - 05:27pm PT
You guys are awesome. A simple update on a tragic/bizarre event involving the climbing community morphs into a wide ranging discussion on pathos, politics, and personalities. This is why, like a moth to the flame, I stop by here almost every Fukking day. Carry on.

ionlyski

Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
Apr 28, 2016 - 05:28pm PT
His biggest trick is to suggest that we want anything more than the 'regulation' guaranteed by the constitution.

His biggest trick is to write such lengthy and argumentative nonsense, known as the Wall of Richard that readers just give up, not really wanting to read his entire rant and that's how he wears you down. In the end he kind of thinks he won on intellect but mostly people just give up. Kind of like WOS.
WBraun

climber
Apr 28, 2016 - 05:37pm PT
His biggest trick is to write such lengthy and argumentative nonsense

Not really.

I bet you anything he can type very fast, almost as fast as his mind moves.

He has a good intellect.

Thus folks who can type fast will have lengthy posts.

LEB was a fast typer too.

The problem many of you have is you get too twisted by reading those posts.

I can speed read pretty good but can type like maybe 10 to 20 words a minute ever.

I type so slow that I'll lose my original thoughts by the time I finish one sentence.

I'm useless ....
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Apr 28, 2016 - 06:06pm PT
I honestly could go in and tear down MB's lengthy argument piece by piece and I may- or I could go upstairs right now, take a little pipe hit and daydream about that forest trail I'm working on to a hidden fist crack- stand by...
rick d

climber
ol pueblo, az
Apr 28, 2016 - 09:06pm PT
aspendougy wrote
"Private citizens are not allowed to own artillery, grenades, or nuclear weapons, don't know why people are so ga-ga about guns. "

Sorry but you are wrong. There are a number of destructive devices including 3" and 5" naval deck guns, 105mm howitzers, and 90mm canons that private US citizens can own, possess and fire. I have seen the 90mm fired (see http://www.armamentsales.com/videos.htm);.

I shot the 3" near Globe myself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZQpR888QuU

There are 180,000 fully automatic weapons that can be bought and sold to private parties on a form 4 (https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/form/form-4-application-tax-paid-transfer-and-registration-firearm-atf-form-53204); ranging from mac submachine guns to a fully automatic Bofors 40mm gun.

I believe there also to be some grenades in the registry but at $200 tax stamp each they are a waste to throw.

You dont have to be ga ga about guns but dont be an ass to those who use them. Your stats about offshore crime are also disputed. Across the globe there are bad people who do mean things with many weapons including money.

***More important, Geoff was a friend and we always spoke at length whenever I came back to Carderock and it is a tragic loss that he was killed by a fellow climber he considered a friend.
zBrown

Ice climber
Apr 28, 2016 - 09:06pm PT
So will DiPaolo be killed in prison?

Did he kill anyone while awaiting plea bargaining?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 28, 2016 - 09:35pm PT
'regulation' guaranteed by the constitution. "Well Regulated".

First, you mistakenly call a "guarantee" what is really the antecedent of a conditional.

Second, "well regulated" doesn't mean what you say it does. "Regulated" in that day meant "trained," and the idea was that a "gun culture" would ensure that the everyday person would be comfortable and competent with firearms, so that the everyday person could be called into service as necessary for national defense (there was not supposed to be a professional, standing military as we know it today).

Finally, the 2nd amendment does not grant any right; it refers to and presumes the preexistence of the right of self-defense, which implies the right to bear arms.

So, the "guarantee" you get from the 2nd is that the everyday person is well-versed in the usage of firearms for their own defense and the defense of the nation. Sounds good to me!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 28, 2016 - 09:38pm PT
I honestly could go in and tear down MB's lengthy argument piece by piece

Impressive bravado. LOL

Okay, why don't you start with the Australian stats? We're not talking about knife wounds that weren't fatal. The cited stats included only deaths... "mass murder." You know, as many of them in a comparable period before and after the infamously ineffective gun-ban that the left keeps citing as "how to do it." Yup, just a shifting of chosen implement, and it turns out that fire is pretty effective after all.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Apr 28, 2016 - 10:17pm PT
And Mad Bolters fans go wild with cheers.

Chirp chirp

120 IQ tops.

(Hey genius, if you're holed up in your house and I've got a tank of gas then who you gonna call?) ( your philosophy is one of force but the aggressor always has the advantage. Cmon genius? Start the synapses. Show us your intellect)
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Apr 28, 2016 - 10:44pm PT
Mad Bolter- I see your love for statistics. I also see how you like to confine debate to the statistics of your choosing.

If we're going to study the gun debate through statistics, let's move to the most definable and contrasting circumstances related to gun ownership. This will yield the most definitive results for comparative analysis.

The United States- Highest gun ownership per capita in the world at 112 guns per 100 people.

United Kingdom- 6.6 guns per 100 people, ranked 82nd lowest per capita.

The US had 30 times more gun murders per capita than the UK in 2012.

Sorry Madbolter, I like my statistics better than yours.

Oh, and please read on...

Mass shootings: There were 372 mass shootings in the US in 2015, killing 475 people and wounding 1,870, according to the Mass Shooting Tracker, which catalogues such incidents. A mass shooting is defined as a single shooting incident which kills or injures four or more people, including the assailant.
Source: Mass Shooting Tracker

School shootings: There were 64 school shootings in 2015, according to a dedicated campaign group set up in the wake of the Sandy Hook elementary school massacre in Connecticut in 2012. Those figures include occasions when a gun was fired but no-one was hurt.
Source: Everytown for Gun SafetyResearch
All shootings: Some 13,286 people were killed in the US by firearms in 2015, according to the Gun Violence Archive, and 26,819 people were injured [those figures exclude suicide]. Those figures are likely to rise by several hundred, once incidents in the final week of the year are counted.
Source: Gun Violence Archive
How the US compares: The number of gun murders per capita in the US in 2012 - the most recent year for comparable statistics - was nearly 30 times that in the UK, at 2.9 per 100,000 compared with just 0.1.
Of all the murders in the US in 2012, 60% were by firearm compared with 31% in Canada, 18.2% in Australia, and just 10% in the UK.
Source: UNODC.
Homicide rate graphic
The home front: So many people die annually from gunfire in the US that the death toll between 1968 and 2011 eclipses all wars ever fought by the country. According to research by Politifact, there were about 1.4 million firearm deaths in that period, compared with 1.2 million US deaths in every conflict from the War of Independence to Iraq.
Source: Politifact.
Total number of guns: No official figure exists but there are thought to be about 300 million in the US, held by about a third of the population. That is nearly enough guns for every man, woman and child in the country.
The NRA: The right to own guns is regarded by many as enshrined in the Second Amendment to the US Constitution, and fiercely defended by lobby groups such as the National Rifle Association, which boasted that its membership surged to around five million in the aftermath of the Sandy Hook school shooting.
Gun violence and terrorism: The US spends more than a trillion dollars per year defending itself against terrorism, which kills a tiny fraction of the number of people killed by ordinary gun crime.
According to figures from the US Department of Justice and the Council on Foreign Affairs, 11,385 people died on average annually in firearm incidents in the US between 2001 and 2011.
In the same period, an average of 517 people were killed annually in terror-related incidents. Removing 2001, when 9/11 occurred, from the calculation produces an annual average of just 31.

It's coming-

The...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 28, 2016 - 10:49pm PT
Would you be as Libertarian Richard if you didn't want to bear arms but your government made it a legal obligation to do so ?

With my IQ of merely 120 (tops), I don't follow your question. Or perhaps you don't follow what "libertarian" means. I'm not sure.

For the government to legitimately issue any "legal obligations," it has to demonstrate that such obligations fit within its enumerated powers and that it is not violating negative rights in the process. There could well be situations (such as actual defense of the nation, and I'm not talking about foreign entanglements or "police actions") in which a "draft" can be legitimate. I can be both "libertarian" and agree with principled force of government.

The problem most of your guys have is that you conflate legitimate force with ALL force, and during our lifetimes the vast, vast majority of governmental force has not been legitimate.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Apr 28, 2016 - 10:54pm PT
You make retarded proclamations. Full of yourself, much? In truth, the vast majority of government force ( call it work as defined by science) has been collaborative and cooperative.

You're a scared child crawling under his desk with a pop gun. Grow up chicken sh#t.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Apr 28, 2016 - 10:56pm PT
MBter, you took the wrong turn in the worm hole...

... call for rescue when ready..
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 28, 2016 - 10:56pm PT
your philosophy is one of force

You are wildly confused if you think that my philosophy is one of force.

I'm one of the very few on the taco stand that is not about force!

You guys want to force all sorts of things, when I prefer to be (particularly by the feds) left pretty much alone. You are the ones wanting to force everybody to conform to your positions, while my philosophy is literally the opposite of force!

You want to smoke, drink, do drugs, do prostitutes, gamble, or any other vice? More power to you! Doesn't violate any of my rights; have at it.

Wanna have (or support) abortions? More power to you. Doesn't violate ANYBODY'S rights that I know of; have at it.

Wanna not have a gun? More power to you. Have a gun? More power to you.

Wanna butt-ram another guy? More power to you. Lesbian, trans, whatever. I don't care. Doesn't violate any of my negative rights. More power to you.

You name it, and unless it violates negative rights (and most behaviors don't), I encourage you to do what you will!

YOU guys are the ones cherry-picking what government must demand and prohibit to fit your particular preferences, not me.

So YOU guys are the ones that are all about using governmental FORCE to get your way, not me.

but the aggressor always has the advantage

LOL.... If you are convinced of that, you will certainly be the one to start a fight. But we'll see if you can finish it as the last man standing.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 28, 2016 - 11:07pm PT
I like my statistics better than yours.

Of course you do, but you're shifting the argument.

You started out talking about other countries, and many on these threads cite Australian gun-control as "the way." So, I pointed out, just as I said, that if you can manage to take away a lot of guns, people still commit mass-murder; they just use other implements.

It was my only point regarding the statistics cited, and the point has strong empirical support in other countries that have tried it.

Unless you can remove the violent mindset that had bred in this nation for many, many decades, then you'll have to eliminate guns (not just reduce their quantity) to have any measurable effect. And even if you could eliminate guns, the same sorts of people would just choose other implements (fire being particularly effective) to kill others.

Instead of drive-by shootings, you'd just get drive-by Molotov cocktails.

The problem in this nation is not the number of guns, as the vast, vast majority of gun owners are law-abiding citizens who will never misuse (or even have an accident) with their guns. "The problem" that grabs headlines are the edge-cases that are the tiny minority.

In typical liberal fashion, you are trying to solve entirely the wrong problem, and your "solution" is to penalize the vast majority for the evils of the tiny few.

Look, you are NOT going to eliminate guns in this nation. And anything short of that solves nothing (and won't even have a statistically significant effect). So, why don't you think about the actual nature of the problem, which is not the chosen implement, so that you can devote efforts where they actually might do some good?

You cannot prohibit your way to utopia, safety, or security.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Apr 28, 2016 - 11:07pm PT
Is that a wimpy call-out?

You've never been in a fight or you wouldn't be such a wuss. Typical conservatard, would rather shoot an innocent kid than take a punch like a man.

You're a caps and exclamation point pussy.

My comment about the aggressor versus the defender is based on military theory. No amount of guns will protect your little prefab castle from a middling siege. All your armaments are useless against a few jugs of petrol.

Tell me you've got someone in your life that doesn't just tolerate you. You're a mad and close minded sophist.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 28, 2016 - 11:17pm PT
Regarding your list of stats, they've been cited in countless ways and times by people just like you on various threads. They all suffer from a few basic problems:

1) They are comparing relatively small, relatively culturally homogeneous countries with the USA, which is not a small nor culturally homogeneous society.

2) They are comparing governments that are constitutionally much freer to infringe on the negative rights of their citizens in order to achieve the goals of the "masterminds." That's fine... for them, and if you want that sort of government, then you should move to one of those countries. Our nation was not supposed to be anything like them.

3) They are comparing societies that have been around much, much longer than the USA and have settled into cultural norms that are almost universally adopted. By contrast, the US is a fairly young nation that has grown incredibly rapidly and without a corresponding settling-in regarding cultural norms.

4) They are comparing societies that during the lifetime of the US have been relatively non-violent by comparison to the US that violently took its place in the world. Violence is embedded in the American mindset in ways that it simply is not in the other compared societies.

5) The US has bred pockets of violence in a few inner-cities that do not exist in the comparative countries. (See 1.) If you take the top five most violent cities in the US out of the US statistics, then the US rates suddenly drop to the "norms" cited in the comparative countries. So, "the problem" is not a "US" problem but is instead concentrated in a very few "hot spots" that are not found in the comparative countries.

There is more, but this is becoming another "wall of text."

"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics." Of course you like yours better than mine. That's the nature of statistics!

But I'm not attempting to use MY stats to violate any of your rights, while you are depending upon yours as "justification" to attempt to violate mine.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 28, 2016 - 11:26pm PT
Is that a wimpy call-out?

LOL... just wow!

You strike me as exactly the sort of aggressor that is why America will always be a violent place compared to "more civilized" nations.

You "argue" with insults, attempting to out-aggressive your "opponent."

You've never been in a fight or you wouldn't be such a wuss.

Wrong. And "wuss"? Are you serious? LOL

Typical conservatard

Again, flat-wrong. I'm the farthest thing from a conservative. Your ignorance is palpable.

would rather shoot an innocent kid than take a punch like a man.

Seriously, get a grip. And if you'd like to meet somewhere and trade punches to see who can take it like a man, I'm game. I'm in the Denver area. Drop by sometime. I'm sure we can find a nice, quiet place to play.

You're a caps and exclamation point pussy.

More insults. Reasonable people will take this as evidence that "the aggressor" does not "always have the advantage."

My comment about the aggressor versus the defender is based on military theory. No amount of guns will protect your little prefab castle from a middling siege.

Your cherry-picked subset of "theory." Not starting a fight doesn't mean you just sit on your ass and wait for the aggressor to take you out! LOL

Wow.

All your armaments are useless against a few jugs of petrol.

Are you serious? I mean, really. You have to be trolling.

Tell me you've got someone in your life that doesn't just tolerate you.

Well, by definition somebody that just doesn't tolerate me isn't going to be "in my life." Duh.

You're a mad and close minded sophist.

LOL

ROFL

At least I try to argue, which is the necessary condition for sophistry. You just devolve into insults, which is even more close-minded.

Pot calling kettle.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Apr 28, 2016 - 11:36pm PT
Did someone say pot?
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Apr 29, 2016 - 06:38am PT
Sophistry is false by definition.

And there you are.



( I don't debate with gun nuts. I just mock them)



9-11, every terrorist attack and every mass killing prove my point that the aggressor always has the benefit of surprise, timing and position. You're just a blabber mouth.

"“Go, prick thy face, and over-red thy fear, Thou lily-liver’d boy.”- MacBeth (that's a Shakespearean insult.

zBrown

Ice climber
Apr 29, 2016 - 07:52am PT
Prohibitions which for the most part work. Add your own.

In California one is prohibited from driving a car without a valid license, insurance and registration. Is it violated? Most certainly.

How often? I'm sure someone can dredge up the stats.

Who does it benefit? Most certainly insurance compainies. but also people who get get by other cars.

overwatch

climber
Arizona
Apr 29, 2016 - 07:55am PT
Shakespeare's insults are the s. h. i. t! Saved for future use, thanks
brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
Apr 29, 2016 - 08:02am PT
Stoopid punk.

Killing someone more than double his age.

These a-holes have no respect nowadays.
couchmaster

climber
Apr 29, 2016 - 09:01am PT
^^^Yup^^sounds like a total shithead. From the article: High on my list of unforgivable things--->
"frequently stealing equipment and clothing from other climbers."

"it was clear to everyone that DiPaolo, whose best friend seemed to be a wildly ungroomed dog named Caesar, had emotional issues that grew more pronounced as he aged and descended into a life of darkness, dominated by addiction to heroin, oxycodone, and cocaine. He supported his habits with some part-time construction work—acquaintances and authorities say he kept many tools in his van—a trust fund that provided several hundred dollars a month, and petty thievery. DiPaolo had several brushes with the law, in part, authorities say, because of his involvement with gang activity in Baltimore, and he drifted in and out of drug-rehabilitation programs.

It seems that every local climber has a story about DiPaolo: openly snorting cocaine at the base of a Carderock climb, staging the theft of his climbing rack to collect insurance money, and frequently stealing equipment and clothing from other climbers. His former climbing partner Matt Kull stopped climbing with DiPaolo in the late 1990s because of his drug use on the rock, his stealing, and his sloppy safety practices, which led to several incidents in which other climbers suffered severe injuries when DiPaolo dropped them on belay."

zBrown

Ice climber
Apr 29, 2016 - 09:27am PT
Well, it wasn't a hammer, but probably worse in the annals of punk-ass sheeit on the ocean.

Machain said he watched as Skylar Deleon grabbed an anchor and some rope, tied the Hawks to the anchor and brought them to the back of the boat.

"Then Mr. Hawk was able to lift his leg somehow and he literally tossed Skylar off his feet, knocked him on his butt … and right behind him the black guy [Kennedy] just takes a big swing at the side of his head and just, I'm pretty sure, he knocked him out." It was a final act of defiance by the powerful captain of the Well Deserved.



http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=6803295&page=1
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 29, 2016 - 11:23am PT
Prohibitions which for the most part work.

I said prohibitions on for-sale items for which there is a market. And I gave many examples. "Driving a car without a valid license" is not an item for-sale for which there is a market.

Of COURSE you can legally prohibit people. But if there is an item for-sale that people want, you are not going to stop them from getting it; all you will accomplish is to create a black market. And that market will always be fueled by the people ruthless enough to operate the supply side. The more desirable the item, the more thriving of a black market you'll have, and the harder it will be to prosecute any "war on" that market.

There is no "market" for "driving without a license," as there's no item for sale.

skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Apr 29, 2016 - 01:25pm PT
Hmmm, flip flop forgot "idol of idiot worshippers", one of my own personal favorites... Although "fusty nut with no kernel" is another one not listed. Going to have to see some summer Shakespeare....
overwatch

climber
Arizona
Apr 29, 2016 - 01:44pm PT
Man that is one messed-up story ZBrow

Mr Hawks was a warrior, we should all comport ourselves so well in a situation so dire

I like those too skreediesea.
zBrown

Ice climber
Apr 29, 2016 - 06:39pm PT
Quote Here - OK. "Yoou don't neeed a weatherman to know which way the wind blows."


"Driving a car without a valid license" is not an item for-sale for which there is a market.

Wrong. There most certainly is a black market [where money changes hands] for illicit licenses. Call it whatever you wish. It's a commodity which I don't track. Perhaps Reilly knows.

ovrW:

By and Large the good guys like Mr. Hawks are dominating our world, but one or a couple "foul lumps of deformity" can make for an overpowering stench that clogs up our perceptions of what the world is really like.



overwatch

climber
Arizona
Apr 29, 2016 - 08:58pm PT
I have trained and worked and been friends with many such men, honorable professionals out there for us every day. And humanity owes all of them a debt for if just one generation went by without such men the human race would cease to exist
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