Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
darod
Trad climber
South Side Billburg
|
|
Amen to that Fet, well said!
|
|
tomtom
climber
Seattle, Wa
|
|
You guys really sh#t on folks you disagree with?
Wow.
|
|
dryfly
Trad climber
utah
|
|
nvrws..I am decidedly not a warmonger.However I will defend myself,my family, and my property, as we all should.My point in bringing that up,was all part of the accountability issue. These are intelligent men that made a concious choice not to react to the bullys.Fine, no problem, but with that choice, as with all choices comes consequences.Observe any grade school and you will soon learn that not reacting to bullies,while it is the higher road, will always lead to more troubles with said bullys.These guys knew or should have known that.My point is that they are not standing buy there decision to stick to the high road.Starting this crap , at this point, is in opposition to said high road.Now is not the time to fight, that boat left 25 yrs. ago .Live with it.
|
|
deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
|
|
Golsen, thanks for your post and insightful commentary.
My intent is not to "diss" Wings of Steel. No one has walked by that magnificent slab of rock and not wondered of the possibilties. I think the route points the way to a future free climbing effort still beyond today's capabilities. My point is just that at the time, it used techniques and tools (more bolts than the norm) that were, and still are, controversial.
The math is clear. If you look at the routes put up in the 80's, using the Walt Shipley innovation of precisely counting holes, rivets, and bolts (which always included belay bolts, by the way), Wings of Steel will be at the top of the list in terms of number of drilled holes per length of new climbing. Today, bolts are used by climbers indiscriminately in rock all over, so it is a moot point; but in the 80's it was not.
Perhaps Chris Mac or some other El Cap historian could enlighten us with the actual hole counts (and number of new pitches) for the routes put up in the era.
It's true I never climbed the route and therefore should probably keep my mouth shut. But back when I was climbing hard stuff, I chose my repeats carefully, and didn't like routes that were rumored to be enhanced, for the simple reason that enhanced routes favored the first ascentionists (especially for hooking cruxes), who made the enhancement based on their body type, position, and previous placement.
So perhaps the question is really one that cannot easily be answered: were there numerous enhancements, as was originally admitted by one of the first ascentionists, or were there only a few, as later claimed? The evidence of enhancements will be invisible today, of course. Perhaps a sister route up the same slab by a bold, chisel-free climber will give the best assessment of the quality of Wings of Steel in the end.
|
|
landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
|
|
Stitch, what county in Colorado did this occur?? In my eyes thats attempted murder. Put a front range rattle snake in his vehicle.rg
|
|
MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Deuce,
There’s some validity to observations in your last post, among them that questions arise “that cannot easily be answered.” I’ve not tried to do the math to compare WoS with other climbs, but its holes-per-foot count is certainly high on a relative basis. (Btw, the 1987 Meyer/Reid guide, history of Yosemite section mentions the hole count correctly but then massively understates its length at only 1200’, thereby giving a totally false sense of the ratio.) If holes-per-foot was the best or only measure of a route, then WoS would certainly be a bad one. I completely disagree with your assertion that we have changed our claims about the flake or other enhancements. You need to provide some quotes to back that up.
If you indeed “chose [your] repeats carefully, and didn't like routes that were rumored to be enhanced” then you certainly didn’t do many of the classics like Pacific Ocean or the Sea.
|
|
Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
|
|
Deuce -- Well said. Thank you for the response to my response. Your post has an air of personal honesty to it seldom seen in WoS threads, and I appreciate that. It seems as though your prowess on the rock carries over to your communication skills.
I agree that the slab still holds a lot of potential for the future. No doubt! And I can certainly see how there is a difference in the expectations then and now. The exaggerations were pretty extreme though, don't you think, and seem to lend to the theory of just getting people worked up into a frenzy. Seeing some numbers from CMac, or someone else would be phenomenal!
I never really looked at enhancements from the standpoint you speak of, but it makes sense. Interesting. Logical. I definitely agree that the question, in regards to enhancements/enhancing, is a tough one to answer clearly after a period of time has passed and the evidence has gone. Any contradiction would make things difficult, at best (I'd have to read back through the threads on these points). Moreso, however, I'd agree that a sister route, on top of an SA of WoS would answer all kinds of questions and provide the best assessment.
Your post is very insightful to me a much appreciated! Thanks!
|
|
anachronism
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
|
|
It is very interesting to me to read the truth regarding WoS (or what very much appears to the truth).
Getting the sh|tters to admit they "did it" is a pipe dream. In some ways it will serve no purpose. I won't hold my breath that the world will ever know. Correcting the smear campaign (Grossman et al) in my worthless opinion does serve a purpose.
I'd like to see Richard and Marks story in print in one of the climbing rags. Alpinist seems the best venue. [not sure it would be appropriate in the American Alpine Journal. It certainly wouldn't get the public recognition that the rags garner] Many of this forum now have a new opinion of what happened with/on WoS. That's just a small corner of the climbing community.
Suggestion: Anyone supporting Richard and Mark should write (petition?) Alpinist to allow them to publish their story. It strikes me that public support for "the truth" will go a long way.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Why I will not reveal the two suspects.
I heard it from second hand and never from the so called guilty source.
How would I ultimately know who really were the perpetrators?
Then you rant about accountability.
You spew out pseudo-zen crap reference, I never made any zen references. Even if theoretically I did you do not know. You do not have any clue.
Therefore you can not be trusted. You rant and speculate too much.
|
|
deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
|
|
QUOTE from MSmith October 28,2005 on Supertopo:
"There are many enhanced hook placements on Wings of Steel"
QUOTE from Madbolter, April 27, 2006 on Supertopo:
"...our FEW enhancements..."
and posting again on the same day regarding the number of enhancements:
"There are a few, and I mean a FEW"
Perhaps we need to discuss whether 'many' is the opposite of 'few'?
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
|
|
"If holes-per-foot was the best or only measure of a route, then WoS would certainly be a bad one."
well, so if you make that statement yourself, then what is this all about? i don't get it.
not trying to be a smart ass here (not that i have to try)-
but i am going to play devil's advocate for a moment. please view this as an opportunity to explain yourselves more fully, rather than as yet another attack (but honestly, i am confused by some of these arguments).
for starters, back in the day, some guys sh#t in yer ropes, and clearly that was mean. those guys were not nice, and that was a tasteless way of telling you what they though of your route. no argument from me, i agree w/ you. but, that alone is not worthy of this amount of attention. a quarter century is plenty long enough to get over that, IMO (go ahead and sh#t on my ropes, i'll be pissed for 10 years, tops). again, that act clearly stands out as especially gross, and you want to know who it was, and their friends wouldn't then and won't now rat them out (which surprises noone)- but that is not what you are focussed on, right? or is it? (as was said earlier, what exactly do you want?
more to the point, you said that you were a victim of an unfair smear campaign, noting this passage:
"Conflicts may arise from the local climbing community. Pressure to climb in good style and according to local precedent, can be intense. A perceived lack of ability or judgement [sic] can detract from the satisfaction of completing a first ascent. Such is the case with Wings of Steel on El Capitan."
so if the prevailing opinion at the time was (and as you even state yourself, as quoted above), that your route was a departure from the norm ("pressure to climb in good style and according to local precedent, can be intense"), a notable increase from the accepted standard of the day (and not judging by what we- or pete on TR- view today as reasonable or allowable in terms of drilled holes per pitch), would that not be adequately described as "a percieved lack of ... judgement"? (it does say ability OR judgement)
so what the author was refering to would be your judgement, as percieved by all these other guys, who all seemed to think you were forcing a route up an unnatural line, a line which was requiring more bolts than they had seen before, and you were doing it on el cap, both the cradle and the shrine of NA rock climbing, where you had never previously set foot(!), isn't that right? (specifically, i mean isn't it right that it was their perception, that you were forcing, that you were overbolting, and that you were new?)
now then, isn't it also true that the reaction of 'the community' at the time, "detract[ed] from the satisfaction of completing [your] first ascent" ?
as i see it, that statement is apparently accurate, as much as you might not enjoy reading it. so how is that a smear? because you felt insulted? well, i think that is what werner has been saying all along, that you are more concerned w/ the reaction of others, rather than w/ your experience on the climb. the time to be concerned about the legacy of the climb was when all these guys were giving you sh#t, telling you what everyone else thought of the line you'd selected. (sorry for being so direct)
as for the opinions of others, you can't do a climb that takes you almost 6 weeks of continuous effort and then say nobody that hasn't climbed it gets to have an opinion, especially when you are bolting your way up a slab, sorry, no f*#king way that's valid.
now please help me out with this part-
some guys think you have started to force a route up an unnatural line. they expect that because you seem to be new, they can just run up and chop what they and others feel are too many bolts or whatever. when they try the moves, low and behold, this stuff is pretty hard and inobvious. now then, does that fact add to, or diminish their feeling that the route itself is forced?
on the topic of ego: these guys were upset by what they saw of the route before they tried to climb abd chop, right? so how is it a question of ego? it's not as if they hopped on your lines to steal the route, were stumped, and then chopped your bolts- that to me would equate w/ this idea of jealousy of the 'local elites', which has been floated in these threads. i just don't see it that way. you guys were bolting your way up the slab, in their eyes at least, and they though it was a desecration of their holiest temple.
to revisit these issues in 2006 and not to firmly entrench the conversation in the standards of the day is pointless. where are the old dads who are saying that you were wronged? where are the old dads who now say that those bolts weren't too many and the community over reacted, and wronged you? i am not seeing any of that, looks like the opposite, if anything.
getting guys on the line today, and having them be impressed w/ the route's climbing and it's difficulty, as i see it, that does absolutely nothing to address what i am understanding to have been the problem in the 1st place, and it also is absent of context. who was bitching that the route was too easy? who was bitching that it was too hard? no, that wasn't the issue at all, was it...?
JM notes a dilema or problem w/ hard hooking lines and the structural advantages that the FA has w/ free will and a clean slate, as opposed to following in anothers hook prints. having never even done a hooking pitch, i have no insights, but those arguments hold weight because of who they come from. now take those arguments and make the hooking extra hard and scary, and before you know it, all those bolts are in place for just one ascent!
maybe the ratio to consider ought to be bolts per climber over time, rather than bolts per feet of rock climbed? in that case, you have a pretty large ratio.
as for the idea that you can just go to yosemite, because it's a national park that we all own, and just put bolts where you see fit- ok fine, go ahead and do that today and see what happens.
anyways- it looks from the devil's advocate's position that if you want to call this route visionary and ahead of it's time, you may have to be reffering to looking ahead to a time when greater # of bolts per pitch had become commonplace.
(platter for ranting is now served, have at it kids)
|
|
nutjob
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
|
|
Werner,
Spiritual acceptance and perspective aside, we're living in our bodies here and now, and physical stuff like climbing gear can be a gateway for our bodies to make a spiritual connection.
If you know about property damage... in the most insulting way imaginable by SH!TTING on it... well you're silence is over the line.
It's up to victims to find forgiveness independent of the external world and others' acceptance of responsibility.
I think their rants are not about this... I think they are doing their part for "society", a part that others should have done long ago.
To the extent that we all contribute to the society in which we live, I believe we all have a responsibility to draw the line about what's OK or not, and how to handle those who cross that line. If you do not, you are contributing to a societal attitude that tolerates shitting on other's stuff. You can say "I don't advocate shitting on others" but for those who lack their own moral accountability (a pre-req for being able to pull down your pants and push out fecies onto something that somebody else has worked for and purchased for their pleasure), your message seems to say "but if you want to sh#t on people's stuff I'll not get in your way".
I guess we all pick our battles in life, too many to be noble in all.
EDIT: Werner, sorry if my tone is judgmental toward you, just read your post immediately preceding mine. Only clear line of action is if you know directly about the offenses... Other situations are murky and really come down to how much you want to go to bat for someone else's cause or for society in general.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2006 - 04:32pm PT
|
Thread drift:
FOR 20 FUKKIN YEARS THESE WOS GUYS HAVE BEEN BURING MY ASSs ABOUT THE FISH HOOK..... ( not really, but this method is attention getting )
But, to quote:
Regarding the Fish hook, it may well be that Fish with the help of you and others concurrently developed it. What I know is that we showed Fish our hook from the trunk of our car in September of 1987. Fish seemed really interested and didn't say "Oh, yeah, that looks like the ones I've already designed." Later the Fish hook shows up on the market in the same width, thickness, grade of steel, and shape. The only difference is the tie-off hole.
The above was in response to the Deuce... so I dig up the paper work from Walt.... he was a big stickler for details.... full plans, materials list, and notes in the margin from the Deuce... dated 9 April 1986, and it starts with "sorry for the delay in the response time". Ummmm... that predates the fukking trunk of your car. ( now would be a good time to say 1987 was a typo, and it was really 1982 or something)
Either way, big-whoop-tee-doo.... the Fish hook is hardly an engineering marvel. Even with the massive brains of Walling, Middendorf and Shipley it is still a 7" piece of steel hot bent around a pipe. Even though we all wore black ninja suits and creeped around R & D-ing ( that is Rip off and Duplicate to those not in the industry ) every hook on the market, this was still the best we could come up with.... real similar to the designs used in Europe in the late 1800's!!! Shiit! Don't tell the Marquis, or we'll have a 116 year asss chapping going on.
Carry on... I think I just saw a "shitter" over there behind that bush......
locker style edit:
Werner.... there is a scale drawing of Averys hook on these pages too! Courtesy of Werner Braun......
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Nutjob
You can't read either, and you're speculating also.
Edit: Russ LOL hahahaha
|
|
Bilbo
Trad climber
Truckee
|
|
It seems.........Since nobody has repeated the route....It is not worthy.....its one thing to put a trad route (say a .12 OW)that you know only the sickest of individuals would ascend (if anybody at all), but a run-out hooking nightmare with holes and bolts on El Cap?
It was probably a great adventure for the FA's, but it SEEMS not worthy(Only due to the fact that nobody will repeat it in ALL this time) and the damage to the stone should be repaired.
The sh#t storm was a clue to this....
If the route is worthy....show the community with a repeat ascent...
|
|
golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
|
|
Matt, you do bring out a good point. The perspective of the early 80's was much different than today. I wonder what those guys would have said about a hood ornament on El Cap of a british car by a brit?
bilbo, that bachar-yerian thingy goes up beautiful rock but the damn thing does not get climbed much, way too few repeats and technically it aint hard by todays "standards". Must not be worthy...yeah, thanks for the excuse as to why I didnt get on it...Who wants to climb an unworthy route anyway, sheesh...Come to think of it, I dont think that Deuces route on Trango has seen a repeat.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
|
|
couple guys i know have done the BY, just in the last couple years, plus there are not too many bolts, and thus nobody's upset. find another route that is/was percieved as OVERbolted by the local standards, and that doesn't see ANY traffic, is w/in 100s of yds of other routes that do see lots of traffic, and your examples will then be better.
|
|
golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
|
|
matt, I get your point. However, on the one had some say it is overbolted and not ever climbed. On the other hand it is a runout scary nightmare and difficult to climb. About the only thing that I could get out of bilbo's post was that since it was not climbed it was not valid. Certainly, it is hard to deduce that it is overbolted and a runout nightmare? This goes under things that make you go hmmmmmmmm...
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
|
|
G-
there is a contradiction there, you are right.
i disagree (w/ bilbo's assessment) that an unclimbed route is necessarily "unworthy" (whatever that word means), but it is possible that an unclimbed route is simply unappealing to many or most, for whatever reason. truthfully, the hard and scary stuff is very appealing to a few (and that, if anything, seems to be where the hardguy ego comes into play).
let me preface this next comment by saying that i am not personally making any judgement on WoS (again, i think the people to do that are the climbers of that era, and i think they have basically said their piece, both here and over the last 25 years or so).
regarding that contradiction, perhaps the resolution can be found in the explaination that the route is "forced"? perhaps in the ethic of the era in question, repeated runout and scary hook moves do not justify what the others in "the community" at the time viewed as too much unnatural protection, in the absence of any significant natural protection, or an aestheticly interesting or otherwise appealing line?
again, i am not passing that judgement or saying that's so, i just get the idea that's what people felt as a group at the time, and i don't think that anyone's idea of how that climb compares to anything else in their modern view is relevant to what people thought at the time. that's my opinion, i guess i'll have to wait untill next week to have it 'splained to me...
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!