Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 1, 2014 - 10:23pm PT
In the brief hours I've been a forum member, I've seen many contentious and political threads regarding firearms. I perused the back issues for a thread of this nature... Didn't exist. Enough non-argumentative interest in the topic to warrant a little bandwidth, though.
Ya well!!! Fuk you gun-loving tards. Jest cause I own 12, that are clean, oiled, and full of bullets: doesn't mean I'm one of you gun-lover-paranoid-nutholes.
Guns r Jest part of Idontno culture.
Jest because yere paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to git-ya!
I go to 4x4 forums full of conservatives and promote the idea of freedom of speech, individual thought, and natural conservation.
Judging by the number of off-topic posts, I'd guess you could start a thread for just about anything! Except boobs. No boobs. At least, no pictures of boobs. Err... no NAKED pictures of boobs.
Oh wait... gun thread. Yeah. I like my guns. They bring home the bacon. I mean elk. And chukar. That is... when I can find them. And then, by some impossibly fantastic anomalous thrashing of all the odds ACTUALLY hit one, they bring home the chukar. No wait.. I mean biscuits.
Which can only mean, according to the published statistical analysis by some of the more intellectually minded of this forum, that I'm more likely to shoot myself in the foot than I am to ever win the lottery.
I priced .44 special hollow points not very long ago and the truth is after not too long if you walk through my front door uninvited you'll be staring at blanks.
maybe I need a cross-bow.
and by they way... you did a poor job of searching for gun appreciation threads. I'm not holding that against you. I'm jus' sayin'....
Well hear here. It's about time the gun huggers had a thread for their appreciation of fire arms.
What I've always objected to was the way every thread about a tragic incident involving guns got shot to hell with appreciation of firearms rather than condemnation of the heinous act.
I didn't appreciate that.
thanks albatross. I got a cow elk tag as well. Bull tags hard to get, and i dont much care about trophies. Hope you enjoy that meat! Good stuff. Burger, steak, jerky, smoked roast. Now if i could just find a good pattern to sew up some climbing boots and a source for sticky rubber i could make some oldschool hi-tops...
A little something different, a WWII Bren in .303, legally acquired and built into a semi-auto from a parts kit. Sights are offset to the left to accommodate the top mounted magazine. Very fun and different feeling to shoot.
I have some training in long range shooting, here's me with a 700 meter group, .308 shooting 180 gr Sierra Gameking handloads.
I use a simple formula to determine distances using a specific scope.
One of my first major interest was firearms. I still have a love for fine antique 17th-18th century guns. In that time frame, firearms were an expression of art of the highest order. I have a few fine examples in my collection.
I owned a 16 guage shotgun as a teenager. My Special Forces Team used AR-15's, UZI's and M-79's. Since leaving the army i've bird hunted a couple of times. I'm familiar with firearms but i think that the obsession with weapons in the US is appalling and that the NRA is evil incarnate.
Many threads, all contentious and political in nature.
Anyway, back to the topic...
Interest and proficiency in firearms is no different to me than organic gardening, stained glass work, carpentry, scuba diving, or building an anchor.
Lots of black powder folks... Interesting. I had a TC Hawken, but just didn't shoot it often. I still have a repro 1860 Army, I cast balls for it, and enjoy shooting it.
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 2, 2014 - 01:27pm PT
"My most accurate shooting is with a hair trigger set up."
So that the next time Ron is attacked by a meth-ed out tube of biscuit dough, he can give it four in the butt & two in the head faster than you can say 'Poppin Fresh!'
Edited to add:
Before I get labeled some gun hatin' pinko liberal, let it be known that I own the following:
.50 cal Knight endloader muzzleloader (I prefer the endloader style for hunting as the caps do not get wet as easily and the hammer design is just simpler to work with than the more traditional hammer style shown upthread. My dad has a Hawken .50 cal, nice gun but the endloader is more modern).
20 ga over/under Investarm, excellent rabbit gun, taken many deer too
ill just point out that it wasnt gun advocates posting pictures of obscenely large breasts nor engage in talk depicting acts of oral sex here on this thread.. hhrmffff...
I'll just point out that you have no idea what my gun status is.
But I will make it clear that you can't lump my guns into my patriotism, so feck off, in the biggest way that I can politely describe. Yeah, that's you Ron, my dead bird stuffing pal.
Sh#t, Michael, youngster, maybe you should chill out and let us old people appreciate breasts. They are beautiful, I'm only in my mid thirties, but I still love boobies. Shut your mouth and love them like you should.
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 2, 2014 - 10:28pm PT
"Soooo in an appreciation thread to guns, which many around here equate with lower class citizenry, ill just point out that it wasnt gun advocates posting pictures of obscenely large breasts nor engage in talk depicting acts of oral sex here on this thread.. hhrmffff..."
Look out, Survival! Ron's gonna report you to the mods!
You'll be the next notch in his pathetic mouse pad!
so Ron A, you dig my boyz with Simken Heights crew above, in the photo? where, then do I get an extendo mag for my nine and learn to wave it towards my temple. that, as you say, is lower-income gun appreciation.
sorry man, I totally dig your ideas on white trash being the last minority and all, but if we are going to revere and toy with killing machines, well then, so can poor folks from the inner city that rhyme about murder.
"put the barrel in his mouth, made him suck it like a dick,
the last sound he remembered was my trigger going click."
and I do agree that po' folk owning them is truly a good thing for the preservation of liberty and self-defense in this country. I mean, that dude stole his crack.
FUNNY THING: My PWT buddy showed me his nine and little lever action .22 winchester in front of the fam, all beerzy the other night. The woodgrain and finish was splendid on that little plinker. Truly beautiful. Just don't shoot yerself in the member.
"No, she's absolutely right," said Zeb, patting the enormous pistol at his hip. "This is a penis substitute. After all, if I could kill at a range of thirty meters with my penis, I wouldn't need to carry this thing around, now would I?"
Like Messrs. Donini & Gill, I owned a shotgun when I was
young, but mine was a 12 gauge. But when I stopped squirrel
hunting, I sold it, legally, to a friend of mine.
I mean, who can't appreciate single-handing an MP5, amiright? Especially those of us that are underprivileged economically and societal-ly. PWT and PBT love guns! Wow!
that's not a .454, right?
kiss for the gun: true love
chicks love guns. chicks understand and can embrace their pseudo-phallic essence.
kids love 'em: I REALLY loved guns when I was her age.
who woulda thought guns would evoke a stronger response than, say, admitting you do illegal drugs? oh wait, colorado fixed that problem. unless you do meth. or coke.
i would be more comfortable coming out of the closet than admitting to owning a firearm around you fine upstanding citizens, you know, if i was gay.
its ok. keep smokin yer stuff, pretending to claim the high moral ground. its ok.
ive got some backcountry bolts to drill. and a ruger. and a six pack. not they all go together, but hey... you,re free to assume.
wish I could take the parallel path here like DMT.
However, J-Rig just pointed out another group of gun-lovers that are WAY under-appreciated: homosexuals!
EDIT:
Scar-baby, dood, this is a gun appreciation thread: yes, I recognize that Dayton Family music is not the finest, yes I recognize that their Flint meth (and the coke, let's be real) suck, but they are gun appreciators. Can you not dig it?
gays, women, and yes... even liberals own guns (as exhibited by my liberal better half).
personally, i seem to like the old single action revolvers best. lucky for me most shootings occur with more modern arms, so i wont likely lose them any time soon. the 44 vaquero is a workhorse, and has more style than most autos these days while still being affordable on the used circuit.
now, if ya dont mind im gona go hide in a closet and try to get some sleep away from the snoring baby and better half.
what do the bi chicks prefer? they,re twice the fun, with fewer hangups...
funny- my guntard friends think i,ve a deathwish for climbing, my gay cousin thinks the same about that and my hunting trips, you guys seem to think having a couple guns makes me a probable mass murderer, and i think you people who fly around on jet-liners are just nuts.
SWIM has a couple-three mini-14s and they are just so fine. totally great on the perforation potential, and the maim/kill ratio (high) is pretty nice for conventional human-terror effect as well. it all depends on the ammo, though, right? and zombies do knott care too much about maimage....SWIM drives around in town with a couple of bushmasters in his jackie
the bushmaster is really technically a pistol in the eyes of MI law, which is fairly reasonable when you consider the fact that is within .25 inches of the max length, holds 30 rounds of .223, and fits in your jacket on a handy sling while driving with the CCW. practical, you know? in case of carjacking. in flint. from other gun owners (TDF anyone?).
EDIT: dual wielding the bushmaster? YES!
yes, the carbon 15 bushmaster beefed up zero malfunction, bad-accurate, pencil-type barrel, gas-piston operated schlong along with the picatinny macro micro backup, wet-runnable, pistol-kit-capable, upfront red dot sighted, with the 1:3 bongdong quadrail, four grip acid tactical very rugged very reliable budget level 800 dollar person perforator, yes. a 15 with the classification of a handgun.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
yes, though, Ron, trigger replacement is an issue. but not shooting maiming non-fatal Safariland holes in living things. you can attach a sling, too.
wherever you point the red dot, it will hit. people too. including yourself. or your kid. careful out there, bongers. "feels like a toy, almost, right?" Yep, shoots great.
BONUS EDIT: with a gun a 9 yr old can kill a samurai, but can she climb 13b?
yes?! [Click to View YouTube Video] okay, nevermind
TRIPLE DOUBLE EDIT:
this coyote appreciates guns
[Click to View YouTube Video]
funny how the shooter sounds something like a mix between Lee Malvo and Jeffrey Dahmer, sort of like an adult man that was sexually abused as a child taking vengeance on a smaller lower life form. You know?
If he had been really smart he would have shot the coyote in the face. Pussy.
When I was a kid, I had a Savage .22 single shot bolt action that was pretty nice. Some scumbag broke into my apartment and stole it. My dad had a JC Higgins 20 gauge. I killed a bird with it and felt sad.
My brother-in-law and sister were Mother Earth News types when they bought a 100 acre farm in the hills of Southern Indiana. 20 acres was plantable and they had corn there. When they moved in the posted the property No Hunting.
The deer during hunting season, of course, figured this out very quickly. The 20 acres of corn didn't last very long. Deer can really eat corn.
The coyotes figured it out, too, and soon over ran the place.
Before you know it, the No Hunting signs are taken down and my brother-in-law is on the porch with a .30-30 blasting coyotes.
Meanwhile:
The Armed Citizen:
A Glendale woman is expected to recover after being shot in the shoulder Wednesday as her husband was clearing a handgun for a safety check, police said.
The woman, 43, was in stable condition at Huntington Memorial Hospital in Pasadena, where she was being treated for a non-life-threatening gunshot wound to her shoulder, police spokeswoman Tahnee Lightfoot told the Glendale News-Press.
The woman’s husband, who wasn't identified, was “very distraught” over the shooting, which detectives have preliminarily determined to be accidental, Lightfoot added.
The wife was standing in the kitchen about 5:30 p.m., while her husband was seated on a couch in their home in the 2600 block of Sleepy Hollow Drive in Glendale.
As he opened the case containing the .22 caliber handgun to clear it for her brother, who was moving out of their home, it suddenly discharged and struck his wife, Lightfoot said.
The bullet missed several vital organs and reportedly struck her shoulder blade.
This has worked wonderfully. After posting climbing topics that received 0 responses, or 1or 2 tepid comments, this thread is over 100!
Sigh... So much vitriol, so much anger. Assignation of attributes to an inanimate object, straw-man arguments, hyperbole, disgust. The object, even the image of it, offends to the core. Peculiar. So many other tragic icons (alcohol, pharmaceuticals, maladaptive behavior of every strain) bandied about in jest and with lightness.
On Supertopo, more than any other idea or image, the firearm is the lightning rod for hatred.
A little something different, a WWII Bren in .303, legally acquired and built into a semi-auto from a parts kit. Sights are offset to the left to accommodate the top mounted magazine. Very fun and different feeling to shoot.
I'm an ardent advocate for more gun control, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate fine guns.
The Bren is even more fun in full auto, and when someone else is paying for the ammo! I once spent an afternoon helping my reserve battalion expend its entire year's allowance of .303 Bren ammo. My thumbs were shredded from reloading, fingers burned from fumbling barrels, but what a great time!
Despite the number of gun-nuts here, I bet I'm the only one who was assigned a SMLE, Bren, FN-FAL and Steyr-Aug as personal weapons in just three years of reserve military service. Trivia for Gun/Military heads, where was I?
Naw Dingus, it's not like that. I'm not "above" anything or anybody. I really did scroll through about 4 pages of search results. What I found was that guns were a consistent topic. There are loud voices pro and con. There seem to be a lot of ST folk who are moderates, like myself, who get lost in the din. It's easy to get sucked in to the arguments, the accusations, the wild claims and line in the sand way of thinking.
I've deliberately avoided addressing any social or political issues. My opinion is my opinion, and that's not the premise of the thread.
I clearly opened the thread with that idea.
There's folks who can't stand the idea of guns.
There's folks who can't stand the idea of folks who can't stand the idea of guns.
Well, this thread ain't for them, there's a couple dozen like that already.
my old man hated guns. still does. mom grew up with them though, so they let grandpa teach me how to hunt. or, i should say poach. and not very well.
so i quit all that and had no guns for a decade. then i inherited a shotgun- remington mod 11 in 16g, full choke. now im back to hunting and shooting for fun. with better ethics these days.
@TBC- what are you vegan or something? ive never seen or heard of anyone masturbating to their gun, or the furry/feathered critters that theyve shot. kinda skewed perspective ya got there. i mean, really- do you rub one out when you send some backcountry rockpile? i bet you like climbing more than some here like guns, so if your question holds water, then i wouldnt want to be following you up a route. just sayin.
Guyman, I'm getting the lay of the land, that's for sure.
The BAR was interesting. For starters, it's massive. It seems almost like an oversized prop. Furthermore, to have carried enough ammunition to use it must have taken 2 people.
It's so big and heavy that you really don't notice any recoil, and it was surprisingly accurate.
My Dad built several CVA kits, they all came out top notch and will make nice heirlooms.
I fondly remembered shooting his Pennsylvania flintlock. I talked it up so much to a surfing buddy that he went and bought one. We went to shoot it, and I did terrible. I have gotten so used to the instant ignition of modern rifles, I had forgotten about the delay associated with the flintlock. I pulled the trigger and immediately flinched back from all the sparks as racket 3" in front of my nose. It was pretty funny.
We went to one of those Rendezvous shoots in Oregon. At the time (being a super cool teenager) I thought it was kind of dorky... All these guys in buckskins throwing hatchets and camping in tepees. Now, I really appreciate the mastery of skills, flint knapping, leatherwork, etc.
Since we got horses, I've looked at a few "traditional" pioneer trail rides. It would be neat for the family, but the cost is formidable. It's taken us a long time to invest in decent modern gear. I don't have the $ to re-equip the whole family with obsolete stuff, too.
Speelyei.... the BAR had at least a 2 man crew, more if in a hot combat situation. My Father-inlaw was in New Guinea during WW2..... BAR was used to make folks hide while other folks tried to outflank.... .306 round is pretty impressive.
Man o man I sure am glad that I never had to go to the two way firing range that was named Vietnam.....
Why would anyone go hunting rabbits? They reproduce faster than you can eat them. My dad just reached into the hutch and grabbed dinner. The extras we sold for pharmaceutical lab testing. That paid for the feed. The guy that bought them was always interested in the veins in their ears.
I always wondered if maybe those rabbits would have preferred being eaten.
sweet bren! I love the BAR too! It's totally legal to own full auto BAR, just the cost of the firearm would be prohibitive though… you ever go to Big sandy? haha, no not on HD. Anybody go to Big sandy shootout in AZ? looks like fun, and want to check it out
For me, I love 1911's in 45 ACP. probably the best feel and look, not to mention the glass rod like trigger break. Dan Wesson is my favorite 1911 maker right now… hand made and fit, all tool steel no MIM parts… Then I love single action army colt revolvers… Colt 45… the original… so cool. DE 50AE are fun, but I'm not so interested. Lever action 30-30 are so fun too. Springfield M1A a great semi 308win. I shot 1 inch groups on paper at 100 yards, and lefty… We recently got into AR's which we didn't like so much until LWRC new 2013 IC's which are great. Piston driven action, nickle-boron coated bolt carrier that is super easy to keep clean… they make wilson combat seem like junk, and WC are definitely not junk. Also, who doesn't like plinking .22lr… cheap all day fun. Skeet shooting is way fun too! looking to join the 50BMG and winchester 45-70 clubs sometime.
My brother and I have been reloading (9mm, 38/357, 40, 44mag, 45ACP, Colt 45, 30-30, 223/556, 308 win 30-06,50AE) for the better of 25 years, mostly him, but I know a fair amount, and that is a fun part of it all as well. loading necked rifle stuff is a pita, but worth it. anybody else here hand load?
my interests with firearms are target shooting (iron sights, no optics) paper, clays, and metal targets 200 to 600 yards out , and hopefully get to shoot at ranges out to 1000 yards with some glass. I've never hunted, though if for some reason, I absolutely had to, I would. I'm usually in CT and NJ, sometimes Chicago, and for 3 months a year, in the bay area, mostly in the valley :)
I don't see anything wrong with this thread as the OP is just trying to find others in the climbing community with similar interests in firearms, pertaining to the legal uses. I would like to add that am not offended by boob pics, and love butt pics of the female kind. :)
I made this 22 caliber target pistol when I was 22 years old--over 45 years ago. It took me about 1000 hours. All parts were made from raw steel; including the screws. I hack-sawed a piece of steel, from a fork lift blade for the main receiver. All other parts were made from tool steel, and heat treated.
The barrel, which slides in a dovetail, is made of 3 pieces, and the inner sleeve was made from a turned down M16 barrel. I know the twist is probably wrong, but it shoots straight.
I was in Vietnam, when I made this and I had the use of a small machine shop.
I had plenty of time on my hands, since I was stuck there for the duration.
Very few people have seen this and since I just bought a modern digital camera, I'm spraying a little. I've made a 45/70 single shot rifle, of my own design as well.
I shoot very rarely these days. Kind of lost interest.
A5Scott, thanks for jumping in!
I handload for .308, 30-30, and .357/38sp. Originally, I thought I would save money, but it's become a hobby of it's own.
I only own a few firearms, personally. I take the opportunity to shoot other peoples stuff when I can, that's my only exposure to the "exotic" stuff.
SteveA, that is an excellent pistol, and an interesting history, too. Were you a machinist by trade? I'd love to see your rifle.
Also, A5Scott, I haven't been to Big Sandy, but I went to Saddle Butte in Oregon. It was very interesting. I got to shoot a lot of firearms, especially some Axis WWII stuff. That was before the Nation went insane.
I don't shoot that often now, but if .22 becomes widely available again, I will go more often.
Looking out at the 1000yd target (10"x12" steel plate) at the first range we built on the Oregon Coast.
We had targets at approximately 200, 400, 600,800 and 1000 yards, all about the size of a sheet of notebook paper. By moving our shooting position, it became necessary to re-range the targets each time. That's where the real skill is, estimating the distance, reading the conditions, and getting a first round hit. I have never owned a laser range finder, I like using the mil method.
Ron, so far, for me, it's been free. The guys who owned those rifles said they're spending $3-$5 a shot, a little less if they use cast bullets.
The guy in the green in my Oregon pic was shooting a Wby .338-378 magnum, and I think he was at $3/round, handloads.
My .308 is pennies by comparison, but still expensive in my opinion.
Well yesterday, while all you people were talking guns, I went down to the Firebase and had a very good day of shooting. It was sunny and 67 degrees!
I ran thru some drills, function tested my new Sigg 938, went crazy with the cans and my Buckmark carbine, then pulled a 2" five shot group @ 200yds with the Rem 700 .308
If guyman was referring to my Draco at Kor acres, yeah, its a firebreather, but now I have a PTR 91 with light, laser and 50round XS Products .308 drum mag.
Just the ticket for "vehicular interdiction", hehe
Oh and scarcollector, look a little more closely.
It is not an MP5K.
Look at the selector and receiver. It is an SP89.
Speelyei, nice bench! yeah we started with an RCBS rockchucker supreme and piggyback for progressive setup. We got some dillon stuff last year, which is great too but totally has it's headaches and things that make you say wtf dillon? saving money by loading is impossible haha… just shoot more for much cheaper…
yeah 308, it's a man's round haha, compared to .223 anyway, and has the ability for some long range stuff, like .338 lapua or 50 BMG. I'd love the Barrett bolt action or bolt with the 5 round box mag.
That range you are at in Oregon looks way fun! There are places in PA for the same thing… would love to do that.
cool Ron! my dad just got a pre ban HK91 (kind of the same thing)… in CT. who knew, you can still buy em in CT as long as they were made before the original AWB (sept 13, 1994) They should be fun!
Sheesh! I just bought one of those (last they had) at Dixie Gun for $16.95 last month and was kvetching because I bought tons less than 2 years ago @ $14.47
the MG 42 is an all time fav! that think is cool… there is a range in MD that rents MP5's, full auto, for not super expensive. This shop in CT used to make cheap MG 42's out of an AR lower, and a fairly good replica MG 42 upper… chain fed, semi, or with the NFA tax stamp, full auto.
anybody ever use a trust to get type II or class III stuff versus the $200 tax stamp way?
Not Germany, not Falklands. I'm not stupid, I joined a military that wasn't likely to be shot at! Shooting guns is fun, being shot isn't.
Late eighties, the Irish Defence Forces Reserve (An Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúl/FCA) was still using .303 SMLE's, with Carl Gustav M45's for NCO's and .303 Brens as squad LMG. One day we even uncrated a few dozen brand-new Brens, I've no idea where they'd been sitting for the previous forty years, but they were fun to make un-brand-new.
When the regular Army adopted the Steyr about 1988, we were handed down their FN-FAL's, making us slightly less obsolete, but far less accurate. Just before I left, our battalion shooting team got to fire the Steyr, but not until the Celtic Tiger did it replace the FN-FAL for the reserves.
The FCA was desperately underequipped and underfunded, but there was an almost unlimited supply of ammo for the shooting team, and the shooting ranges were in the beautiful Wicklow mountains. One afternoon a week in competition season, I got picked up at the gates of my University and got some great stress relief at taxpayers expense. In a place where all guns are registered, handguns are prohibited and rifles can be no more than .22 caliber, legally firing a full-auto weapon for free every week was hard to beat. Tax free beer in the barracks bar was just a bonus.
I'm sitting on a couple tons of legal 'fabulous killing devices' that have never killed, and hopefully never will, anything.. (ok ok... a skunk or two)....
And of the thousand or so fine people I've shot competitions or for fun with over many decades I can't remember one who seemed intent on violence against any people. In fact, most of us with a lot of experience shooting targets and/or in combat know full well the potential energy going downrange and take it quite seriously.
People kill people, as well as many other "things". Just because you don't, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It has been going on for quite a while now too.
In some places, the things that make it very easy to kill other things are less readily available. Over there, other things are killed less readily. We all make choices. It is pretty straightforward.
My uncle said something like: "There is evil in this world, therefore we need strong men."
Sitting on a pile of well machined precision killing equipment is pretty attractive. Is it worth giving up that feeling in order to make yet another mass shooting a little less likely?
born raised in texas, got red ryder for christmas when i was 8 like in christmas story lol, got my chl when i was 21, run a family business in downtown dallas carry everyday, watched people get stabbed over 6 times, and cops shoot a guy pulling his gun over 5 times inside the building, glad i only work there lol
Hey cowboy I believe that's called "bump fire". it looks like a standard semi auto beretta 9mm or forty cal, but basically his fat belly pushes the pistol forward and his trigger finger is stationary... The movement of the pistol causes it to fire at such a high rate. If he's not careful, he may wind up a victim of Darwinism... This method of fire control is better suited for long semiautomatic rifles, well with at least a 16" bbl... Easier to control
Jim, I totally respect your wife's and your position. I think governments and powers that be (dictators and such Mao and Ché etc...) have killed way more than any firearm out there. You think back in the late 1940's when china was slaughtering its own by the tens of millions (between 45 and 60 million) that maybe they wished they had a chance to defend themselves with something other than a stick? I also believe that about 99.9% of legal gun owners don't commit murder. In fact, they tend to commit other crimes less frequently than the avg citizen. Maybe has somethjng to do with fingerprints on file with the FBI or the fact that they enjoy their hobby and wish to peacefully continue with it. Yes some firearm owners do crossover to the dark side an use them in crimes. Are people gonna drink less cause some people get stupid drunk and do dumb ass things? Are people gonna do less drugs because drug cartels are murdering lots of people? Will people use less coke or marijuana because dealers and other criminals involved with the drug trade are killing innocent as well as other criminal coworkers or gang members? I seriously doubt that anyone thinks for a millisecond about all the people that die as a result of the drug trade just before taking a hit of whatever their form of recreation may be. Gangs and drug trade commit the majority of murder, at about 70-75% How about make pot legal everywhere, free up prisons and courts tax it appropriately, and just bring the hammer down on those that commit violent crimes. The folks that commit violent crimes are not likely on this forum... Most of us on here are lovers! This just happens to be a thread where we enjoy some fine machinery.
He was a Veteran of the Army and the Navy, and had been on several tours overseas to Iraq.
He wanted to shoot my .30-06 at a long distance. So I dialed it up on the scope, got the rifle all set...
He lays down and pushes his eye up against the end of the scope. I was just kind of staring, dumbfounded, I thought he was... I dunno, I don't know just what he was doing. But I felt out of place to correct him..
Well, just as I'm about to say, "hey, there friend.." he jerks the trigger, giving himself a big crescent eyebrow, which starts to bleed profusely.
I was able to find a couple panty-liner pads int he glove box, which he idiotically refused to wear. He peeled off the adhesive backing and used it like butterfly bandages. Initially he accused me of "tricking" him into shooting that "cannon".
Often military folks who do not come from a rural background know pretty much nothing about guns outside of their MOS. So your friend who perhaps spent 3 years mostly shooting a 5.56mm carbine may have never fired a high power bolt gun?
I have been shooting for 45yrs and the highest power scoped rifle i have ever shot was .243 I could be a prime canidate for scope eye if someone handed me a 30-06 w/ a scope.
My 06 popped me in the eye twice on the elk hunt due to the poor position I shot from. Sunglasses left the bridge of my nose bruised. Had smoked elk sandwich, French dip style for dinner tonight though.
hey TGT… I think many first shot's miss too because for the average person, killing another living creature especially another human goes against natural instincts and impulses… what was the ratio in WW2? like 10,000 rounds fired per actual KIA? i think something like 15-20% of trained soldiers shoot high their first time in battle, just because they don't want to kill.
my guess on the photo is france and the rifle could be a mauser bolt action… K-98
Perfect shooting weather, sunny, 52 and not a breath of wind.
Usually I avoid going to the range 2 miles from here because of redneck yahoos with poor gun handling habits with their cheap plinkers and Hi-points, but lately traffic is way down (they're out of .22s), and today I had a pleasant surprise.
One of the first times I've been outclassed there. I pulled up and laid 2 Thompsons and a Sig on the table, but the only other party was 2 old guys with a scoped AR with a chrome barrel.
A brand new first time at the range Les Baer with a Nightforce 5-25X scope!
He was sighting it in for a Colorado prairie dog hunt.
Turns out he's related to my lawyer.
I have had a SWAT Monolith on order from Les Baer for a year!
I have a friend who is going to SHOT who is going to swing by his booth and make noises.
Toker, would love to see pics of that thompson… 45 ACP? stick clip?
plus Toker, have you seen the AR's from LWRC? They make piston operated with nickel-boron impregnated BCG which is great… pretty much self lubricating and just wipe clean, both that the bolt gets too dirty in a piston driven… The new LWRC IC's are worth checking out… built to run, built to last, ambi everything, and look amazing. so far have about 1000 flawless round down range thru mine. plus they eat up 556 reloads perfectly
Could be a Mauser or a Czech imitation, but it is already a beater rifle in 1937 in the hands of a guerrilla fighter, and look at the way she carries it with the sling attached to a band well back on the fore end.
I'd venture a guess that it is a Lebel M1886 which fires an 8X50 rimmed cartridge.
If so the cleaning rod is not fully inserted.
EDIT
A5, standard Thompson semi-auto rifle and mare's leg pistol version.
I have 2 drums but they're jamarama. The sticks work better.
Oh yah guys! So you are not just a bunch of stoned has beens here
after all. Catching the eye ball pressed to the scope boo-boo
in that picture from Predators.
Had a pal who bought a break barrel pellet Gamo to protect his
vege garden. His first gopher also sent him to the emergency room with a bleeding eye from the scopes sharp edge!
The photograph is of the recently deceased Marina Ginesta, taken by Juan Guzman on the roof of the Hotel Colon on July 21 1936. One of the Spanish Civil War's iconic images.
Mr. Toker Villain: I bought a Volunteer Arms Commando,(Thompson clone) for one hundred dollars a few years ago. Cheesy...Wannna-be...45 ACP..Grease gun mags...It looks cool and feeds ball ammo all day. Don't know anybody else that has one or even heard of one...But hell..A non firing replica wall hanger costs more than it did..Maybe someday it will be worth more than the hundred I paid for it,...Frank
Blakey, good on you, mate. I'll buy you a couple of pints, if a tenner will
do so these days. Meet me in Cortina in September to collect. Oh, I was
thinking the armed lassie was in Havana but it didn't look to be Havana and
the Cubanos were too chauvanistic to indulge in feminine icons.
Hitting a target at 1,000 yards is a skill once only possessed by a few
elite snipers. But all that has changed, thanks to a high-tech bullet
guidance system created by Texas gun manufacturer TrackingPoint. For
better or worse, anyone with $20,000 to burn can
now buy a rifle that will let them shoot like a highly trained sniper.
The smart rifle operates quick and easy, just differently from a
traditional weapon.
ONE: You look through the scope and push a red button near the trigger to
electronically tag your chosen target. A dot appears on the imaged target
and stays there even if you move the rifle.
(nothing is visible down range to any observers)
TWO: A computer calculated red reticle aim point then appears based on the
bullet’s expected trajectory determined by conditions, somewhere in the
scopes image and usually not over the tagged target.
THREE: The shooter pulls the trigger but the gun does not fire yet.
The shooter slowly moves rifle so the red reticle COVERS the previously
tagged taget dot. "Bang! ...the rifle fires itself and a perfect 1000yard shot is made by
a complete gun noob.
It takes an especially demented gun nut to think shooting someone in a hospital is a good idea. A hospital? You mean the building where all of the equipment and staff needed to save someone's life from something traumatic like a gunshot wound is kept?
Thats about two miles from home here. Shooter was 88 years old. Maybe if we had better health care...
Somehow it seems to lack the outrage that school shootings carry.
Dont worry, Im sure they,ll put him away for life.
On a brighter note, a friend is coming by with his 12 year old tomorrow to do some 4x4ing, climbing, and (gasp!) target shooting. We,ll follow that with elk burger and beer.
I'm sure those computer guided rifles have been around for a while. looks like a Remington 700 clone... sounds like a cheap drone program. boring. $25,000 and some NFA paperwork will get some way more fun toys
just about anything can be set up remotely. replace the fire control with electronics and telescopic camera with the signal to a control terminal. servos to articulate the rifle. It's a drone that doesn't move. From what i read, early types are/were on the N korea DMZ and even on berlin wall. not as sophisticated as the one mentioned in the article.
remote control isn't a new subject. imo a waste of $25k
Like you Braunini I also didn't understand why some of my friends were freaked out by TrackingPoint finished product.
For the price of a cheap suv any noob can now get a TrackingPoint rifle and outshoot the best trained snipers in the world.
Repeated bullseyes at 1000yrds from target tag to bullet impact in less that 8 seconds. Targets the size of a persons head peaking out from around a car.
i don't have any interest debating the subject. remote control guns have been around for a while. drones. on the side of military ships to shoot down incoming missiles. that's not rumor. didn't you ever see the movie The jackal bruce willis? or shooter? mark wahlberg?
i imagine this is just the most sophisticated iteration to date.
you are welcome to be concerned about this and I wouldn't call you wrong. I worry more about less sophisticated threats.
at least that stupid f*#ker isn't leaving 'em laying around the house loaded for the kiddos. he is just legislating my belongings into illegality. I mean, what's wrong with that?
Remington is now marketing a dumbed down version that does all the math,but doesn't implement the hold point tracking/trigger release for about 5.5k for rifle and sighting system..
It is totally disgusting that some CEO gets to buy that tracking rifle and take it to africa or Idaho or whatever and make a long range kill on some animal that the creep would have zero chance of bagging on his own with a normal rifle. then he has the head cut off and mounted on his wall so everyone will know what a bad ass he is supposed to be.....
on a lighter note i mounted an Eotech on the AR a few days ago :)
Essentially what you have is a rifle with a scope.
The factors that a shooter compensates for are vertical drop over a given distance, and horizontal drift due to wind and atmospheric conditions.
The scope cannot sense wind at varying yardages between the muzzle and the target.
Even if the scope were capable of taking all environmental factors into consideration, the rifle must be pointed in exactly the proper direction at exactly the proper angle with no side to side cant at the moment the round is discharged, regardless of the trigger system.
For the rifle to "automatically" be able to shoot with the exaggerated precision envisioned in this thread it would require some sort of automated adjustable chassis system, similar to the self tracking mounts used by astronomers.
I shoot to 1k yds and beyond on a regular basis.
I shot against (not at) a tracking point shooter... I won.
Tracking point will eventually get there but it's not there yet.
My rifle scope cost is about $8500. Much less than a tracking point set up...
Jus'saying
im all for guns, i think everyone should own one. you just have to be smart and responsible. a few months back one of my climbing partners had his gun in his room. his 5 yr old son is used to playing with air soft guns. they were playing a shooter game on tv on xbox i believe, long story short, the 5 year old ran into his room, grabbed what he thought was the air soft hand gun, ran into the room and shot the tv with a 22 hand gun. just wanted to play like his dad. i share this story to show that if your stupid and not responsible than guns can be very dangerous. but if your smart and responsible there no more harmful than driving a car smart. i own 12 guns and there all kept in a safe except for a handgun thats kept loaded by my bed in a finger print quick safe. i am not worried one bit about my son getting into danger with them as i am responsible with gun safety.
We had a case here of a mother in debt and fired who attempted a murder / suicide with her daughter. She botched her suicide and now sits in prison for her daughter's killing.
.22s kill more people only through their ubiquity (maybe that'll change now). They are a really bad choice though.
I went to the SHOT show for a day last week; was able to order a Swarovski 5-30 with a ranging reticle for my Les Baer SWAT monolith.
Apparently NightForce scopes are WAY backordered.
Pretty soon X-Products will have a 50rd drum for MP5s soon. Yahoo.
The scope can work the simple calculations needed for windage and elevation.
It doesn't aim or shoot the rifle. The rifle rests on a bipod and and the rear of the stock on a rest, the shooters hand, or a monopod. It just sits there. The barrel doesn't articulate, the rifle doesn't move itself.
If you are not on target, you're not on target. The bullet is committed to it's flight path once it leaves the muzzle. The rifle must be aimed accurately and precisely to get a hit. It's not "automatic". It doesn't replace the shooter. Even with their gizmo to reduce the chance of a jerked trigger pull, the rifle must still be aimed, steady, and on target.
I shoot at 1000yds + on a regular basis.
I'll give you a scenario, and you explain to me how the scope and rifle they show will overcome it:
You observe a basketball at 1,025 yards away. The terrain is relatively flat, and there is little wind to speak of. You lay down with the scope and rifle, your bipod is steady, the rifle is level without any side to side cant. You actuate the scope, and it automatically determines that for the atmospheric conditions, distance, and performance of your bullet it needs to adjust point of aim 416 inches vertically and 38 inches to the right to account for windage. You relax, you are very careful not to move the rifle... Just as you are about to touch the remote trigger button, the ball slowly rolls 6 feet to the left.
How will the scope deal with this independent of the shooter?
A little ditty I remember from basic training. "This is my rifle, this is my gun (appropriate gesture), this is for fighting, this is for fun (appropriate gesture).
Calling a rifle a gun was a big no no.
Also about that video... Every shot the camera seemed to come off target and start to point to the sky and then come back down to level. A compensated rifle would never do that, it would just push back. Seems kind of bogus.
EDIT: If you want to save some $$$ off the Schmidt and still out pace the Swaro, take a look at the Vortex Razor HD. The new one they revealed at SHOT is nice. I picked up a few... But so far nothing will replace my Schmidts for spending extended time with my eye in the glass.
BREAKING: Smith & Wesson M&P Pistols to Fall Off CA DOJ Approved List
January 21, 2014 at 13:08
Written by Robert Farago
Hot on the heels of Ruger’s announcement that it will allow all of its pistols to fall off the California Department Of Justice approved list, ending Ruger’s pistol sales in the Golden State, Smith & Wesson’s taking their M&P pistols off the menu. Guns Direct Facebook page let slip news of [what is in effect] a manufacturer boycott: “Attention: California gun owners. Smith & Wesson Corp. just informed us that all the M&P pistols will be falling off the Ca DOJ list of approved handguns in the next 60 days. So if your [sic] thinking about one, now is the time.” Ruger stopped sales claiming they could not satisfy the CA DOJ’s microstamping requirement. As of yet there’s no official statement from Smith. [h/t MV]
yeah, my family just got a pre ban HK 91. I love LWRC and want a 308 REPR bad, but everything seems to go back to the FN SCAR. Toker, would you say that you don't particularly like 308 AR's? THat sig 716 looks like a good deal too haha
I've wanted an M1A for a long time, but I just can't bring myself to spend that kind of money on a rifle. Plus, I have a friend that was an Army National Guard sniper and sniper school instructor who did several tours in Iraq, and was issued an M14. He said quit pining, they're not all that great. With all the bedding and tweaks and icing you're still looking at a 3moa rifle. I still want one.
I shot a G3, full auto, it was a handful.
Another rifle I really want is this wacko frankenstein bolt action called the FR8. I think it would be a neat little hunting rifle, but not at todays prices.
I like shooting the AR's fine, but I find them to be a chore to clean.
hey Speelyei, I only got into AR's the last year or so... kind of digging piston op just because they run better and cleaner. WMD does a great job nickel boron coating metal parts that are way easier to clean.
Speelil - don't think anyone was under the illusion that TrackingPoint rifles had servo motor drives as your previous posts indicate maybe you did. It claims 3 gyro scopes and an accelerometer but its not a little
Phalanx CIWS.
The media hype calling it a smart rifle that aims itself perhaps is like
how no one expects smart phones to fly out our their pockets and hover
next to their ears. Tracking Point is a hands on product.
Not perfect, but hey it eliminates trigger jerk and the math for hitting
long shots, cold bore, on the 1st shot. Many calling it a game changer.
Copy cat competitors are already working on their own versions of this
system.
No reason it should could cost a lot more than a Wii videogame
controller and a knock off brand point and shoot digital camera.
I never used to be into guns, but several years ago I started target shooting and found it absolutely exhilerating, and fun!
Now I own 4 firearms. They are actually quite beautiful pieces of hardware believe it or not. This is why I understand why people have so many different guns. They are really nice.
My favorite is my Kimber .45 ACP. Beautiful gun.
I want to get in to hunting in the future, maybe go up to Ron's and get some lessons on cleaning.
RonA and speelyei are close.
First pic is a '48 Remington Model 81 ("Woodsmaster"), modification of the original Model 8 by J.M. Browning; production ended 1950. Chambered in .300 Sav, but between the two, you could get .25, .30, .32, and .35 Rem as well. (edit: was also an FN version, the 1900, with a very limited run).
The break-actions are Savage 24s, with their kissing cousin the 242.
L to R, .30-30/20ga, .22mag/20, .22/.410 (with side, not hammer, selector, making it an earlier run), the 242 (.410/.410), and .222/20. There are several other 24 combos out there (.357/20 is pretty hard to find, some folks rebore to .357max for increased options); then you get all worked up about selector/break lever locations, brazed vs banded barrels, etc based on changes in manufacture. I'd rather have a wooden-stock .30-30; the scope came with this one, maybe will swap out for a Weaver peep for that and the .222.
Still not a gun-nut, but some are prettier than others, eh?
Dale
Hey blue, love the 1911's. They feel perfect in the hand... Which kimber did you get? What are your other 3?
Scott
I have the base model Kimber, Custom II. Funny how their base model is such a sweet, custom gun compared to the trad 1911 or 1991 Springfield (which is still the benchmark 1911).
Henry Arms AR-7 Survival Rifle in semi-auto .22lr. Very accurate too! The whole rifle collaples into the butt, includes 2 magazines. Cool rifle.
Last was my first, a World War II surplus Turkish Mauser 8MM. It even has Nazi stamps on some of the action near the serial#s. Also has Islamic crecents on it. A flashback to the Turks making German engineered gear for the war effort. I have 2 of these (I guess that makes 5 guns then). The first one I bought I discovered to have a bent barrel! Dude holding it prolly got rolled by a Sherman tank. It's a slow bend, maybe pass a round, but generally unsafe. A wall unit.
I had to buy another one that was remotely fireable. Never fired either rifle yet, just cleaned 'em up real good. They come packed with tons of grease in the barrels and action to preserve the metals.
I still need to take them out and string-fire them to make sure they don't explode.
Also need to find some 8mm Mauser ammo that's compatible to the rifle.
Best part about the Mausers? They cost $60 each at Big5 Sporting Goods!!!
Yeah Bluering, Kimber makes a nice 1911 that's for sure... I rented a kimber ultra carry II 45 ACP because it was the closest thing to the Dan Wesson ECO... before I bought the ECO. The kimber 3.5" barrel ran real nice and was pretty accurate. My next 1911 will be a bobtail 4.25" commander size 45. can't get enough of the 1911... haha
Anyone carry in the backcountry? Hip holsters are horrid for both climbing harnesses and hip belts on packs. Has anyone else encountered that? How do you deal with it?
I have a tex shoemaker holster that drops a wheelgun down out of the way.
I do sometimes. I have a Hunter brand leather holster that is pretty easy to attach to the waist belt on my backpack. I have also attached the holster where I can get to it on top of the pack, and that works pretty well. I have hooked it on the shoulder strap/sternum strap when scrambling and sliding, too.
For long guns, I have a backpack made by a company called Eberlestock, it has an integral scabbard, so the rifle rides vertically against your back between you and the pack body. I use that to lug my long range stuff and for hunting trips and for hunting trips. I wish I had gotten the next size larger, but i have really gotten a lo of use out of that bag.
I have never had occasion to wear a holster and a harness at the same time, I guess if I was looking at that, a shoulder holster would be the way to do it.
The pack with a scabbard sounds gond for the hunts. Rifle gets heavy sometimes. Coworker modified the top of his freighter pack frame with a V to act as a rest, if he wants it. I dont have the money to go buy new rigs, so I just make do. And I lucked out on the shoemaker holster in a pawnshop bargain bin for ten bucks. Its 160 new.
Now before people get all agro over the gun/climbing thing, thats way back in the sticks where the rest of you dont usually venture, and we,ve met some questionable characters. Or maybe other folks have decided we were the questionable ones. heh heh.
Well I was pretty close, not having anything for scale, but with todays "wheel" 410s the ubiquitous nature of the ammo makes it desirable to a 28.
I have a Governor and a Judge. The S&W is a far superior weapon, taking moon clips holding an extra round and having a smoother action.
Trouble is it is a 2.5" chamber.
What the hell is Blue talking about with alternating rounds? You can load any sequence of rounds that fit the chamber.
haha, the 454 brass is only like .01" longer than 45 LC or Colt 45 brass... my brother's Colt 45 reloads would probably obliterate the Judge cylinder haha... I'll stick with the Ruger
I used to have an orighnal 1881 marlin in 45-70. It got me started reloading. Boy, it was a sustbucket, but it went bang. Had to sell it. Hated that, as it had been my step-dad,s. Irreplaceable and all that.
Would kinda like to get one of marlins Cowboy versions, someday. It was fun shooting those blackpowder rounds.
How does the Judge perform with 45? Could you keep everything on a sheet of notebook paper at 15 or 20 yards?
My backcountry/horseback gun is a Ruger Blackhawk in .357. I have only good things to say about it. I have been sort of interested in a Judge since they came out, but have never shot one.
Speel, I bet I could do a 3" group @ 15m with the Governor.
My handgun beast is a .308 semi-auto, but it is quite controllable.
Never shot a .45-70 Contender, but I do have many barrels including .45/ 410, .44mag, a rare .44spl with a choke for snakeshot, and a .30-30!
I was at the Vegas range trying to knock over heavy silhouettes with the .44mag but it was bouncing off. So I went to the .30-30 and was able to knock them down, but it is not fun to shoot.
Whereas my 10" barrel Super Blackhawk really tames the .44 mag.
Got me a S&W .460 XVR. It ain't no 500
but soo versatile. Got the 8" barrel and
gonna hunt mulies w/it if'n I draw out
for a permit. Plinks .45LC like a .22 and
handles the.454 with ease.
Definitely a 45/70 w/octagon barell is going
to get into the collection some day.
had the hi-point 9mm carbine at one time. surprised me, as recoil was sharp, if not strong. i prefer a 12gauge or 30-06 to it. was fairly accurate, but it too had to be sold. Cant hunt big game with such a thing, so i dont have much use for em besides plinking.
im partial to ruger pistols, got a 357 blackhawk and a 44mag vaquero. either will fit the drop holster, but the vaquero is still shiny, so its the beater 357 that mostly goes places. thinking of sending it in for the transfer bar conversion so i can keep six rounds in, vs five.
If I was gonna get a large cal wheel gun, I'd get a ruger... Super Blackhawk 45LC or .44 Mag, or ruger 454 casull. Ruger makes burley revolvers. If you wanted to go governor route, find a place that rents them and try it out. Are they double action only? Or SA too.? I think DA the judge has 13 pound pull. My brothers SA ruger 45 LC had a 2.5 pound trigger with no take up... Lol.
Or a colt SAA, polished nickel with ivory grips haha... Silverado.
If you want semi, check out LAR grizzly 44 mag... I bet 44mag is great for backcountry walkabout
Yeah Ron... 9mm carbines rule. Colt AR 9mm carbine or ruger 9mm carbine... Cheap shooting rifle fun
LtR:
Remington model 11 16g was my grandfathers.
Stevens model 311 12g. Bought for $150 at a pawn shop.
Colt woodsman, the original that belonged to my grandfather (1st gun I ever shot) was taken by PD and never returned, despite court order to do so. I replaced it with this much later, it's been poorly reblued, has some rust, but shoots ok.
Ruger 3screw Blackhawk 357. all-around beater gun.
Ruger 44 vaquero. the only "pretty" gun I own. $400 pawnshop.
Grandpas old 30-06, Remington 760. I refinished the stock, sanded the rust off and cold blued it. Added a scope in a horrible botched mounting. Took two elk with it, one at 260 and another this year about 300yds, so that'll do.
Uncle's old 8mm lebel. Uncle once saved granma and grandpa on a hunting trip when they wandered onto a grow-plot by accident. Two dudes surprised GnG while they ate lunch, holding them at gunpoint and actually discussing how to dispose of them. Uncle stepped in on flank, surprised the dudes, and grandpa was then able to grab the old pump gun in this photo. Grandpa was going to kill them. Uncle talked him out of it. Uncle was hunting with this lebel.
Anyone got load data for the 8mm lebel?
I've had a lot of other guns over the years, and many of them went away in my divorce, because those things are expensive. Some I wish I still had, due mostly to sentimental value, some just because they were fun. But that's the way things go sometimes.
I have a Marlin Camp rifle, but in .45acp, takes 1911 clips.
But I have loads of 9mm carbines, love 'em.
Got a carbon fiber AR that takes the same 32 rd sticks in my old Colt, and yet a third AR in 9mm, an Armalite that takes Glock clips (super reliable), and I also have a Suomi that can empty its 72rd drum in under 10 seconds, but the best by far are my HKs
The HK94 is the most fun gun to shoot in my entire collection.
oh, i wont be buying anything but diapers for awhile. ;)
and i do have a carry gun, nothin interesting about that really though. it goes bang when its spose to.
Price= if you are asking you cannot afford it...
My guess 40k for the Fuch's before you start engraving...
Looking around the net a similar Fanzoj triple shotgun was going for 73K...
The most valuable firearms in the world are on display at the Metropolitan Museum in NYC. They were presented to Catherine The Great by a Polish prince.
Literally priceless, they were donated after being bought nearly a century ago for a reputed $5M.
The governor also shoots.45acp with the moon clips.
Anybody else shoot clay? I started shooting 5 stand and
It's too much fun trying to keep up with the boys and
their semi-autos and fancy over/unders with my 12g pump
gun.
Back when Sporting Clays got started I'd shoot several times a week. Usually International Skeet during the week and a few rounds of sporting clays on the weekend.
A first generation Browning GTI 28" stack barrel.
After a year or so I had it fitted and it cost more than the gun. (at the time $750 for a fitting)
The process involved an entire morning on a clays course with the fitter/gunsmith with a Try Gun that adjusted six ways to Sunday. Everything was shot from an unmounted stock position and he'd stand behind me, watch the pattern and make small adjustments between targets till I was consistently getting a good gun mount and centered patterns.
He then took my gun and his try gun back to his shop where he had a gig fixture with a tank of 300 deg. heated linseed oil to soften the wood an a clamping arrangement to twist and bend the stock to match the settings on his try gun. The stock was left clamped in that position for a week to set.
I ended up with a perfectly fitting piece that points like an extension of my eye and arm, but if someone else shoulders it it feels wrong and they usually can't identify why.
I'm a southpaw so it has cast on instead of cast off, the cheekpiece is twisted to fit my face, and the butt twisted to fit the shoulder pocket. It's subtle. Visually it's no different than stock.
There was a battle at the time between competing groups over who would set the rules for the sport and the big money group won out after a couple of years and pussified the rules. About that time I got back into climbing and lost interest.
There was an article on the net today, saying that each day, an average of 20 children are injured in accidents with firearms. I am not opposed to anyone's right to own them, but those who are parents, they need to be very cautious.
A serious question. I heard that it is possible for ammo to get a micro stamp upon firing that links it to the gun used more accurately and more quickly than traditional rifling patterns.
Police forces appear to be in favor of legislating that as a reasonable gun law. But gun manufacturers, in particular $mith & We$$on, and the NRA oppose the move.
What do you think about the idea of micro stamping bullets?
philo I am not familiar with this technology. A link would be helpful. I know you are anti-firearm, but please consider the following:
As you probably know, sportspersons (men and women who hunt and fish / target shoot) already pay considerable taxes every time they purchase a fishing lure or license, boat, boat motor, firearm, bow, ammunition, etc. These heavy taxes have been used to protect and preserve countless fish and game species, improve habitat, hunter and boater education, shooting safety classes, etc. As a result our country may well have one of the best managed fish and game populations in the world.
In other words, next time you're gazing out at a herd of Buffalo or Bighorn Sheep or see a Bear or Mountain Lion in the wild, you can thank sportsmen who have been so supportive of these wonderful creatures.
If the microchip could somehow prevent a psychopath from taking a shotgun into a school and shooting others it is a grand idea. I'd like to see some evidence of this possibility.
"As a result of the recent debate over guns, gun rights, and gun-related violence, there has been a marked increase in sales of many weapons as well as ammunition. Through an excise tax on firearms and ammunition, such sales have a marked beneficial effect on funding for state wildlife programs through the Wildlife Restoration Program (also known as Pittman-Robertson or P-R)."
You can go to any state game and fish website to see more facts in regards to these taxes...
I believe that micro stamping is where the firing pin has a special code engraved in the tip, which leaves a unique impression in a spent primer of centerfire ammo. Any semi auto pistol that isn't already on CA's approved list is required to be sold with micro stamping firing pins. this could be a way to find evidence against criminals, assuming they don't file off the micro stamp or swap firing pins with an unstamped firing pin, or simply police their brass.
each time a firearm manufacturer updates a model with new features or improvements, would require that manufacturer to fit the updated firearm with micro stamping firing pins. Smith&Wesson, as well as ruger decided not to comply, and may stop sales of semi auto pistols. They may even go as far as to terminate service contracts to law enforcement and other CA state employees... which means they will have to find other vendors for parts. Ronnie Barrett wrote a letter to Cali saying that he basically won't sell to CA state employees or service their firearms after CA banned Barrett 50 cal rifles.
Seems like another way to micro manage the average lawful citizen, while criminals and gangs continue with business as usual
One can defeat any firing pin based micro stamping scheme by simply shooting - and not cleaning the gun. Eventually - and it shouldn't take long - the numbers and letters will be fouled beyond use by normal gun filth, or battered into illegibility. The more "micro" the stamp, the faster this will happen.
AK-47: It works though you have never cleaned it once every couple years.
AR-15: You have a special cleaner and use it after every day.
Mosin: It was last cleaned in Berlin in 1945… maybe?
AK-47: You are able to hit the broad side of a barn from inside
AR-15: You are able to hit the broad side of a barn from 600 meters
Mosin: You can hit the farm from two counties over
AK-47: Cheap mags are fun to buy
AR-15: Cheap mags melt
Mosin: You know what a clip actually is!
AK-47: Your safety can be heard from 300 meters away
AR-15: You can silently flip off the safety with your finger on the trigger
Mosin: What’s a safety?
AK-47: Your rifle comes with a cheap nylon sling
AR-15: Your rifle has a 9 point stealth tactical suspension system
Mosin: You rifle has dog collar
AK-47: Your bayonet makes a good wire cutter
AR-15: Your bayonet is actually a pretty good steak knife
Mosin: Your bayonet can stab someone on the other side of the room
AK-47: You can put a .30″ hole through 12″ of oak, if you can hit it
AR-15: You can put one hole in a paper target at 100 meters with 30 rounds
Mosin: You can knock down everyone else’s target with the shock wave of your bullet going downrange
AK-47: When out of ammo your rifle will nominally pass as a club
AR-15: When out of ammo, your rifle makes a great wiffle bat
Mosin: When out of ammo, your rifle makes a supreme war club, pike, boat oar, tent pole, or firewood
AK-47: Recoil is manageable, even fun
AR-15: What’s recoil?
Mosin: Recoil is often used to relocate shoulders thrown out by the previous shot
AK-47: Your rifle can be used by any two bit nation’s most illiterate conscripts to fight elite forces worldwide.
AR-15: Your rifle is used by elite forces worldwide to fight two bit nations’ most illiterate conscripts
Mosin: Your rifle has fought against itself and won every time
AK-47: Your rifle won some revolutions
AR-15: Your rifle won the Cold War
Mosin: Your rifle won a pole vault event
AK-47: You buy cheap ammo by the case
AR-15: You lovingly reload precision crafted rounds one by one
Mosin: You dig your ammo out of a farmer’s field in Ukraine and it works just fine
AK-47: Service life, 50 years
AR-15: Service life, 30 years
Mosin: Service life, 100 years, and counting
AK-47: It’s easier to buy a new rifle when you want to change cartridge sizes
AR-15: You can change cartridge sizes with the push of a couple of pins and a new upper
Mosin: You believe no real man would dare risk the ridicule of his friends by suggesting to shoot anything but 7.62x54r
AK-47: You can repair your rifle with a big hammer and a swift kick
AR-15: You can repair your rifle by taking it to a certified gunsmith, it’s under warranty!
Mosin: If your rifle breaks, you find a new one at the gun buy-back
AK-47: You consider it a badge of honor when you get your handguards to burst into flames
AR-15: You consider it a badge of honor when you shoot a sub-MOA 5 shot group
Mosin: You consider it a badge of honor when you cycle 5 rounds without the aid of a 2×4
AK-47: After a long day the range you relax by watching “Red Dawn”
AR-15: After a long day at the range you relax by watching “Blackhawk Down”
Mosin: After a long day at the range you relax by visiting the chiropractor
AK-47: After cleaning your rifle you have a strong urge for a stiff shot of Vodka
AR-15: After cleaning your rifle you have a strong urge for hotdogs and apple pie
Mosin: After cleaning your rifle you have a strong urge for shishkabob
AK-47: You can accessorize you rifle with a new muzzle brake or a nice stock set
AR-15: Your rifle’s accessories are eight times more valuable than your rifle
Mosin: Your rifle’s accessory is a small tin can with a funny lid, but it’s buried under an apartment building somewhere in Budapest
AK-47: Your rifle’s finish is varnish and paint
AR-15: Your rifle’s finish is Teflon and high tech polymers
Mosin: Your rifle’s finish is low grade shellac, cosmoline and Olga’s toe nails
AK-47: Your wife tolerates your autographed framed picture of Mikhail Kalashnikov
AR-15: Your wife tolerates your autographed framed picture of Eugene Stoner
Mosin: You’re not sure there WERE cameras to photograph Sergei Mosin
AK-47: Late at night you sometimes have to fight the urge to hold your rifle over your head and shout “Wolverines!”
AR-15: Late at night you sometimes have to fight the urge to clear your house, slicing the pie from room to room.
Mosin: Late at night, you sometimes have to fight the urge to dig a fighting trench in the the yard to sleep in.
AK-47: You can pick off a deer pretty easy at 300 meters
AR-15: You can pick off prairie dogs at 300 meters all day long
Mosin: You can pick off a moose from the next province
AK-47: Sometimes mistaken for spare parts
AR-15: Sometimes mistaken for a toy
Mosin: Sometimes mistaken for an artillery piece
AK-47: Makes a Boom when fired
AR-15: Makes a Pop when fired
Mosin: A group of Germans just yelled “Vat Vas Dat Noise?”
AK-47: I think I shot the enemy!
AR-15: I shot the enemy
Mosin: I got the enemy and the 4 standing behind him!
AK-47: Heavily dents the metal gong and makes a loud gong sound
AR-15: Scratches the metal gong and makes a ping sound
Mosin: Can’t tell if you hit the gong because it goes straight through
AK-47: Puts a big hole through a tree
AR-15: Puts a small hole in a tree
Mosin: Chops and stacks the tree into firewood
AK-47: Cost you $600
AR-15: Cost you $1200
Mosin: Free with a tank of gas
AK-47: Can start the hand guards on fire from too much shooting
AR-15: Can start a fire if too close to a magnifying glass
Mosin: Can start a fire from the fireball from the muzzle
AK-47: Iron sights are good enough
AR-15: Lots of fancy optics available
Mosin: Barrel is so long who needs sights to aim, it always shoots point blank
AK-47: Can take down deer sized game
AR-15: Causes an argument if asked if it can take take deer sized game in US
Mosin: Causes a call from the US Government asking if you know what happened to their satellite
AK-47: Invented 60 years ago by wounded tank sergeant
AR-15: Invented 50 years ago by a consummate engineer
Mosin: Invented 117 years ago by two drunks on a budget
AK-47: Used with ammo not in accordance with the Geneva Convention
AR-15: Used with ammo accordance with the Geneva Convention
Mosin: One of the reasons the Geneva Convention was written
AK-47: Useful against unarmored foe
AR-15: Useful against armored foe
Mosin: Useful against tanks
AK-47: Five to six inch groups at 100 yards
AR-15: One inch group at 100 yards
Mosin: Muzzle is one inch from target at 100 yards
AK-47: Low cost, low maintenance
AR-15: High cost, high maintenance
Mosin: Free with a tank of gas and hasn’t been cleaned since WWII
AK-47: You can put a .30″ hole through 12″ of oak, if you can hit it
AR-15: You can put one hole in a paper target at 100 meters with 30 rounds
Mosin: You can knock down everyone else’s target with the shock wave of your bullet going downrange
I remember sighting in my Mosin I asked my spotter how my shot placement was and he replied "I have wait for my eyeballs to stop vibrating and I'll tell you". And the fire ball off that surplus ammo is a weapon itself.
TMC,
RUAG is a new brand I discovered this month at SHOT. They had a booth about 100m from Bluewater and Yates'.
Swiss made lead free frangible projectiles loaded here and fairly competitive in price. For example 115 gr 9mm @ $.24/ rd
Frangible is not only safer to shoot steel plates at close range for practice, but is devastating in combat due to the instantaneous energy dump. At that cost you can practice and function test at the same time.
Hey crankster, I started a climbing thread about conservation, barely a hundred bites. Where were you?
Somebody tell me why the Mosin was used as a sniper rifle in Nam if it was such a beast. I
realize they didn't have much to choose from but it sure seems rather cave.
Any of you guys ever build large precision rifle on a Remington 700 action? The question more specifically is this, after straightening the action, is it important to oversize the bolt bore and use a larger bolt? The bolt face will be trueed also and must be opened up.
This is probably the most I will ever put into a rifle and I want it as close to perfection as possible. Any of you been there done that?
Yesterday I loaded some .357 coppers for pig hunting tomorrow. At 75 yards I was high and right about six inches, but I stacked two and third was within an inch and a half. The stack was total luck cause I could barely see the target through my open sights. Shooting a Rossi model 1892.
Bullet- Barnes XBP 140gr HP
Powder- Alliant 2400 12.0gr
Shell- Nickel Plated 1.575 C.O.L
Unfortunatelly, the chrono wasn't working, but I think it should be around 1200-1300 fbs.
Gunna try to chrono again later.
Anyone else have .357 load data?
Hey, this just in, I checked my load data for handguns, as I load a lot of this caliber for my wife. The pistol load for this caliber only gets up to 1047 fps with 12.5 grains of 2400, so your estimate may be off slightly for velocity. The rifle data I have is for a speer bullet but it suggests that a HP at 140 grains with 2400 that 14 grains is a minimum starting load, and produces a velocity of 1631.
I am not familiar with how strong the action of the Rossi is, but the load you tried seems a little light to me. Hope the chrono gets up and running. Keep me posted, as the group you shot seems quite impressive for a slow load. Hint, more muzzle velocity will result in more energy to the pig, which seems to be the goal.
I started to respond to this once, and then decided that handguns and rifles are two differend beasts, and I had nothing to really offer you, but after looking at my data, and loading a lot for my lever gun, and handguns just couldn't leave this one alone.
Thanks Bob.
I couldn't find any data outta the Barnes Book for this powder, but looking at burn speeds and powders close to the 2400, I decided 12.0 gr was a good starting point. I'll post the Hornady info below. They actually used my exact rifle model, so that's cool. I actually think it's around 1400-1500fps, looking at the Hornady load info. I'm shooting coppers and they are longer than lead FPs, so any more powder and I'm worried about a compressed load. These Data are from a 180gr because I think the length of the bullet is about the same.
Also, appreciate your viewpoint and info. I hope to chrono today and end my guessing.
Also Also, it has 140gr @ 12.1gr a velocity of 1500fps. Max load at 14.7gr. I'll keep you updated if I find anything and if I get a pig.
Thanks. Interestingly, something like a million sales declined by NICS during a 14 year period. I'd call that significant.
Notice, though, that there are more legal purchases going on now.
Tone of the article seems sad that they aren't declining more sales. Meh.
Private sale loophole. Keep hearing that phrase. Don't fool yourself into thinking that requiring universal background checks would stop illegal sales.
Ron. some of your rules are stupid and paranoid and you left out two of the most important rules. #1 use your brain and stay out of troubble. #2 that little pointy thing on the end of the barrel is the front sight. LOOK AT IT!
ELM, I love the Hornady website and their ballistic calculator is how I calculate my drop charts. I only need to tweak the results slightly and is most likely due to air density and whatnot. Good stuff, and it's free.
Burly Bob
Bob, I'm going to chrono today. Or try, we got the thing to pick up .22s, so shot a copper through and nothing again. It was when the light was fading so all we can think is it wasn't picking up the shadow. I might try to load some blue dot as well, a lot less powder, but first gotta get that chrono working.
As far as the pigs, took us all day to find them, when we did they were in the thick brush. My buddy almost fired but they quickly evaded us. Then I found where they were, they winded me and scurried well off this time. My buddy was carrying a Henry .44 mag and I had the Rossi .357 mag. Perfect for that thick brush and close range shots..
I've found my chrony to be sensitive to the direction of light hitting the shades. If you can, try rotating to a different direction or tilting it on its side. Not always convenient, but if you need the data...
Not sure why you are so down on 7.62 short? Pinging 5" steel targets @ 200m my friends SKS was hitting just as many as my AR but knocking them with more athority farther off the stand. then we broke out my .303 and the steel took a real beating. 5.56 tips em over. 7.62 short knocks em about a foot. 303 sends em flying ass over teakettle
How good are you guys? Can you identify these? Brownie points for load data on the left rifle in the 2nd picture! It's the only one of the four I still have.
Actually the one right center looks closer to a Lebel- Berthier with an aftermarket scope mount, and the one on the left looks like an Artillery Musketoon Mle 1892.
But that was also developed by Andre Berthier.
If it is then you have a 8X50Rmm cartridge which in 1892 was black powder, though many made the conversion.
Top photo might be a Winchester 94 and a Mauser Gewehr 98.
Top photo is an 1881 marlin in 45-70. From the factory it was equipped with double set triggers, and the magazine tube would have been the full length of the barrel. Somewhere in its history the mag tube was cut and the set trigger removed. I learned to reload just for this gun, and shot some rounds loaded with pyrodex. This gun had been my step-dad's, and when he died mom didn't have a use for it.
Along with it is an Arisaka type 99 in 7.7. It had the original bayonet, but as with others the mum was ground off. I've discovered that standard dies will reform 30-06 brass acceptably, though sometimes they bubble in at the neck, and the case must be subsequently trimmed. The base is also a few thousandths smaller, so I only use a reformed round for two loadings and then toss it. Also from my step-dad. Both guns were so covered in rust it took months to get them in questionably shootable condition. Both were first fired in an old tire. Both had to be sold during my divorce.
Lower left picture is indeed a Berthier, which I've not found acceptable load data for as yet. I did buy a box of factory rounds, and have shot it. They are not black powder, and they seem to shoot fine. Expensive though. This was my uncle's rifle, which he used to hunt deer. How he ever managed to hit one, must have been at very close range. The sights are godawful, and the rear is loose.
Lower pic right is a Mosin m44, to which I added a 2x pistol scope on a cheap mount. Had to use a piece of soda can as a shim to keep it accurate. Also discovered adding or removing the bayonet changed the point of impact by two horizontal feet at 100 yards. It too went away in the divorce. That's 250 rounds of ammo in my closet in a caliber I no longer own. Oops.
This one, I grew up with. Sort of. Grandpa had one an taught me to shoot with it. Then when I was 18 the local PD confiscated it, and never returned it despite a court order to do so. F*#kers. So I eventually replaced it. This one was super cheap, as it has some rust and a terrible re-blueing. But it's got the high-speed housing and shoots ok. Someday I'll break the sight adjustment loose and dial it in.
Oh, and most all my guns are ugly... they come cheap that way, so I can just toss them in the truck and not worry. They all go bang.
Ron O. Not sure why you are so down on 7.62x39? Pinging 5" steel targets @ 200m my friends SKS was hitting just as many as my AR but knocking them with more athority farther off the stand. Then we broke out my .303 and the steel took a real beating. 5.56 tips em over. 7.62 short knocks em about a foot. 303 sends em flying ass over teakettle. sure seems like the 7.62X39 has more power than the 5.56? seems reasonably accurate @ 200m have not shot sks out beyond that in a controled setting.
I won't argue that it has more power. I'd even admit that in a 200m firefight in a stand of bamboo or even relatively thin trees that the round would prove superior, but overall I have not invested much in the round because the 5.56mm has far more applications.
And of course it is far more portable, giving the user an advantage in a sustained action.
The cool thing about 7.62x39 is the throaty report. (Actually a useful facet since sometimes firefights are determined by "he who makes the most noise".)
Don't get me wrong. I am totally happy with my AR but a few things I have noticed. shooting my 5" x 6" steel targets @ 420m up at my sisters farm I could hit the plates from prone w/ my backpack as a rest but they would not tip over. Did not have the Mk4 303 with me but doubt that I could see the plates at that distance without optics @ My age. No doubt that If I could see them I could hit them and they would go flying ass over teakettle.
New 1000 yd target, piece of scrap steel from salvage yard, suspended by pieces of chain from an axle made of steel tubing. Discarded 50gal drum makes for a stand/screen combo, since it's planted on public land. Carrying the components out to the spot was a good workout. Makes a nice loud PONG, and swings noticeably. I think it will hold up to my friends .50, too.
Another steel swinger made from scrap and crap. The disc is 3/8 mild steel, the frame is one of thousands left all over the desert by now defunct realty companies. Perfect for pistol and 100/200 yd rim fire.
Range Systems has a 25% off sale and I just got a heavy duty silhouette on a stand that deflects downward and has a red 5" COM inner target that flips back and resets.
Might even try it out today (sunny and 70s predicted).
Cool. I had tons of fun with reactive targets BINTD we had swingers. you hit a steel plate and it would knock a supporting post from under a weighted pendulum with a target on the top end of the pendulum. Floppers you hit a steel plate and the exposed target would flop over and dissapear as a 2nd target popped up. Another cool setup you hit the steel plate and the exposed weighted target falls in a spiral track that turns the target sideways as it falls. all of those targets required a lot of speed and accuracy for the follow up moveing target to be engaged. I generaly put a no shoot/hostage target on the moveing target leaveing only a small portion of the shoot target exposed forceing accurate shooting. Full size IPSC target is effin huge.....
CA Gun Rights Advocates:
Local pecker-heads are trying to shut down Chabot Gun Club shooting range for good, put in a dog walking park or some crap. Place is a stronghold for firearms training and has a great selection of ranges suitable for most all your arsenal. To lose this place would be a tragedy to the East Bay Area, but even worse, yet another feather in the cap of CA anti-gun ball lickers. Your signing this petition will help preserve Chabot Gun Club and make a statement to the local residents who've bought and built homes closer to the range and are now petitioning it to close: http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/chabot-gun-club-safe?source=s.fwd&r_by=9998194
Or you can check out the club website and access the petitions from there: http://chabotgunclub.com/
Agree with Trusty Rusty. That's a great range and if you happen to be in the Bay Area it's worth a visit. It'd be a shame if they closed it down. It's a safe place and great service to the community, kinda of a Bay Area fixture. I don't know of any nearby Bay Area ranges like it. It only takes a few seconds to sign the petition.
A truly fantastic day at the range. 70 degrees, no wind no clouds.
I spent 5 hours and for the first three I had the place to myself.
Shot nearly a thousand rounds at cans and the silhouette.
First a gumby with a 4 year old girl and a pellet rifle shows up and says, "I've only got this pellet rifle." and lowers it so that it is pointed right at me.
I'm not sure which of the 2 required more instruction.
Then 4 mexicans with a single 9mm and 2 clips shows up, but they at least kept their muzzle pointed down range. We got along since I knew "Alto fuego!" and "Comenzar".
When the light got low out came the PTR91 with a laser. That .308 handgun is LOUD. I shot a clip and looked over and they all had their hands on their ears and their mouths open.
They really liked the target, and so did I.
Center of the target hits sound different, even with a mere .22
And the .308 at 40 yards didn't hurt it, so I'm gonna get lots of mileage out of it.
Any of you muzzeloader fans out thhere know the avereage value of an old Kentucky Long Rifle? A friend of mine has one that was passed down thru her family sitting in their living room, curious about the worth.
Cheers! and ka-blooey.
Today every citizen of Ukraine understands why our country has hundreds of thousands of policemen. Last illusions were crushed when riot police used rubber batons and boots at the Independence Square on peaceful citizens.
After such actions we realize that it is not enough to only adopt the Gun Law.
As of today Ukrainian Gun Owners Association will start to work on the preparation of amendments to the Constitution, which will provide an unconditional right for Ukrainian citizens to bear arms.
People should have the right to bear arms, which will be put in written into the Constitution.
Authorities should not and will not be stronger than its people!
It's fodder for a separate thread, and there are certainly plenty of thoughts and treatises on the matter already...
But the language of the 2nd amendment is so odd. Compare it with the 1st and 3rd. Those have much less ambiguity.
Gun Control Misfire, Sinking Ratings: Why Piers Morgan flopped
Piers Morgan believes he shot himself in the foot by crusading for gun control, with his CNN show as the final casualty.
But the self-inflicted damage was far deeper than that.
The British journalist undoubtedly alienated many in the audience (and perhaps delighted others) with his crusade against guns. But when he would bring on gun advocates and rail against them as “stupid,” well, it was hard to watch.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/02/25/gun-control-misfire-sinking-ratings-why-piers-morgan-flopped/?intcmp=latestnews
Maybe people are tired of having this issue shoved down their throats by the mainstream media. CNN obviously has an agenda on gun control, to tow the democratic party line.
Hell, we probably could have passed some reasonable legislation on background checks and clip capacity, but the tactics used to push it were so over the top, that there was a backlash against any attempts to control gun ownership.
Nice job Piers!
Definitely the most stupid thread in this forum! Weapons are for people without brain!
So many peolpe get killed in the world with weapons, and then this thread?!?!?!?!?
The language has many presumptions that were commonly understood when it was written. I agree with many that think it should be rewritten or eliminated. Here's why....
If it were eliminated, then the Feds would have to very explicitly demonstrate how it is among their constitutionally granted powers to regulate guns. It is not, unless the commerce clause is yet again written just a big larger and a bit larger. But that slippery slope leads directly to tyranny. The FEDS have no business in this debate. It's a states' rights and local municipalities' issue.
If a rewrite, it should plainly state what is merely inherent in it at present: "The People" (you and I) HAVE a right to have and bear arms. What it is that "shall not be infringed" IS that right. All the other language is "fluff" compared to the inherent presumption of that right.
Governments do not grant the right to self-defense. That right is an inalienable human right. Thus, governments cannot take away that right or infringe upon it.
But that right presumes the MEANS to self-defense... appropriate means to neutralize the sort of threats one is likely to encounter.
Making guns illegal does not remove them from the hands of criminals. So prospective threats against my person (qua individual) will always include the threat of gun violence. Hence, I have an absolute right to have and bear guns as a function of my inalienable right of self-defense. No government grants that to me, and no government can take it away from me, nor "infringe" upon it.
This isn't a "tanks appreciation" thread, but that's fine because I have no need to have and bear tanks (or nukes). Tanks are not a presumptive threat against my person in this society. And nukes are neither immediate threats nor threats against MY person (qua individual). Thus, I have no presumptive need to have and bear tanks (or nukes) for SELF-defense. However, there are "societies" on Earth in which laying your hands on a tank might well be a very good idea!
The sort of "arms" one has a right to bear are directly tied to the presumptive threats one may have to face (qua individual). Thus, guns are a given in this society, and always will be. And the requisite "arms" must scale with the presumptive threats to individuals.
So, yes, I very much appreciate firearms held and borne by law-abiding citizens in this society! And any "reworking" of the 2nd amendment should more clearly explicate the nature of the inalienable right to self-defense and defense against tyranny.
Thank god we have a Supreme Court and a Constitution that makes changing it
extremely difficult. The alternative is Italy, Argentina, or California.
Now if we had cops whose priorities were locking up criminals instead of
securing a nice cushy pension then we wouldn't need to have this discussion.
madbolter nailed it! That was the most well reasoned and worded argument I have heard yet. +10
And since he derailed it, I'll keep pushing. His points are all fine and reasonable, except that he has previously asserted that second amendment to mean much more: He has claimed that it allows him (or codifies his inalienable right to) own any gun he desires and sell or give that gun to any person he desires.
appropriate means to neutralize the sort of threats one is likely to encounter.
The sort of "arms" one has a right to bear are directly tied to the presumptive threats one may have to face (qua individual).
NOBODY here or in Congress or in any state government has proposed any legislation that would infringe on that right.
Requiring registration of certain guns, or all guns does not infringe on that right.
Making it illegal to sell guns to criminals does not infringe on that right.
Limiting the number of guns a person can buy in one month does not infringe on that right.
Requiring ID to purchase ammunition does not infringe on that right.
Requiring training for a person wishing to carry a loaded firearm in a public place does not infringe on that right.
Requiring registration of certain guns, or all guns does not infringe on that right.
Making it illegal to sell guns to criminals does not infringe on that right.
Limiting the number of guns a person can buy in one month does not infringe on that right.
Requiring ID to purchase ammunition does not infringe on that right.
Requiring training for a person wishing to carry a loaded firearm in a public place does not infringe on that right.
1)Registration of all guns, hmmm, where did I hear that before? Oh yes, 1935 Germany.
2)It already IS illegal to sell guns to criminals.
3)One gun per monthly limits? To accomplish what? Keeping a father from buying 2 single shots for his 14 year old twins' birthday?
4) Requiring ID for ammo? For age checks fine, but otherwise see #1)
5) Requiring training? THEY ALREADY DO.
Haha, 99 percent huh? Anyone who reloads doesn't leave their brass. Even some that don't reload pick up their brass. Then again I can't always find it all! so guess I am part of the 99 percent. Oh well, I'm a dick.
^^^ Upon second thought you are right. It is not 99% and I should not have stated it that way. It is however the majority and enough to leave a bad taste in the mouth of non shooters when they encounter it all over the place. And I think very few shooters reload.
I usually clean up any existing crap first, before shooting ( I carry a lawn rake for just that purpose ) so my brass of known history doesn't get mixed in with whatever crap the last guy was shooting. Makes cases easier to find, too. Even if no garbage exists, I rake a nice clean patch where I expect the cases to land, to simplify finding them.
I was just giving you a hard time, I knew what you meant and I agree it is a dick move. It's littering. There are plenty of reloaders out there though, especially after the ammunition shortage and prices.
His points are all fine and reasonable, except that he has previously asserted that second amendment to mean much more: He has claimed that it allows him (or codifies his inalienable right to) own any gun he desires and sell or give that gun to any person he desires.
Please quote from any thread where I have said that I have a "right" to give or sell my gun to any person I please.
Regarding my right to own any gun I please, yes, that it precisely what I assert. As argued above, having and carrying any GUN (not tank or nuke) that is commensurate firepower with the sort of threats I could be expected to meet in this society, is implied by my right to self-defense.
NOBODY here or in Congress or in any state government has proposed any legislation that would infringe on that right.
Not true.
Congress actually has passed laws that infringe upon this right. When government passes laws that limit, for example, the clip-size, use of a grip (that makes a weapon an "asualt" weapon, lol), a ban on automatic weapons, and so forth... these ALL infringe on my right to have commensurate firepower at my disposal that criminals can (and do) bring to bear against individuals. So, these laws already DO infringe upon my inalienable right of self-defense (regardless of 2nd amendment interpretations).
One of the many pressing stories that remains to be told from the Snowden archive is how western intelligence agencies are attempting to manipulate and control online discourse with extreme tactics of deception and reputation-destruction. It’s time to tell a chunk of that story, complete with the relevant documents.
Over the last several weeks, I worked with NBC News to publish a series of articles about “dirty trick” tactics used by GCHQ’s previously secret unit, JTRIG (Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group). These were based on four classified GCHQ documents presented to the NSA and the other three partners in the English-speaking “Five Eyes” alliance. Today, we at the Intercept are publishing another new JTRIG document, in full, entitled “The Art of Deception: Training for Online Covert Operations.”
By publishing these stories one by one, our NBC reporting highlighted some of the key, discrete revelations: the monitoring of YouTube and Blogger, the targeting of Anonymous with the very same DDoS attacks they accuse “hacktivists” of using, the use of “honey traps” (luring people into compromising situations using sex) and destructive viruses. But, here, I want to focus and elaborate on the overarching point revealed by all of these documents: namely, that these agencies are attempting to control, infiltrate, manipulate, and warp online discourse, and in doing so, are compromising the integrity of the internet itself.
Among the core self-identified purposes of JTRIG are two tactics: (1) to inject all sorts of false material onto the internet in order to destroy the reputation of its targets; and (2) to use social sciences and other techniques to manipulate online discourse and activism to generate outcomes it considers desirable. To see how extremist these programs are, just consider the tactics they boast of using to achieve those ends: “false flag operations” (posting material to the internet and falsely attributing it to someone else), fake victim blog posts (pretending to be a victim of the individual whose reputation they want to destroy), and posting “negative information” on various forums.
inalienable right to self-defense and defense against tyranny.
Not to say I don't like firearms. They are fun, and we have a longstanding tradition of ownership in the US, and it is protected under constitution... However I feel the "defense against tyranny" argument is outdated.... Do threats against liberty persist? Certainly... Are guns a good deterrent? Maybe? We live in 2014 not 1900 a bunch of "well armed" citizens are not gonna defeat a modern military machine... Even the Boers lost back in the day, and they technically better small arms and home field advantage....
Still need more expensive sporting arms pictures....
Try to forget about the constitution, the framers and ally thing to do with the laws regarding firearms. You don't understand those things on the most basic levels. That's why your reasoning is so flawed and painful to read.
LOL
When you get a Ph.D. in logic, political philosophy, and ethics, as I have, and you have written formal articles on the subject, as I have, then your statements might have a shred of credibility.
At present, you are arguing like one of those people that (sadly) think that everybody's opinion should have the same weight.
Until you can explain what morally grounds these (miraculous) "choices" you talk about (hint: rights), you are just hand-waving.
We live in 2014 not 1900 a bunch of "well armed" citizens are not gonna defeat a modern military machine...
It's an old argument that enjoys prima facie credibility. But it's not a good one for at least several reasons.
* You don't have to "defeat" the military machine. Think Afghanistan. Think terrorism. You only have to consistently cause enough trouble over a long enough period to cause a tyrant to deal or withdraw. And a good sniper rifle in the hands of someone that can use it can entirely change the course of history.
* In this country, if enough people took up arms, they would not even have to number in the majority, and you'd find that the "military machine" would largely or entirely lose the will to fight the uprising. "Dealing" would happen sooner than later. Remember that the members of that "machine" would know people, have parents and siblings, and so forth, that were among the militants. Long before actual force of arms was employed, the fact that force COULD be employed would have such people looking each other eye-to-eye and asking some hard questions of each other: "Are we really going to go brother against brother AGAIN? Better let's talk this through very carefully!"
* The argument is DEEPLY question-begging. It essentially says: "The founders (who, btw, decried a standing military for (in part) this very reason) imagined an ARMED citizenry so that the citizenry would have the in-principle capacity to rise up against its government. And yet they actually wrote up a 2nd amendment SO fundamentally flawed that the 'infringements' they worried about would become the VERY infringements that disallowed the citizenry from even HAVING the arms needed to put up a good fight against their government." Ridiculous! If anything, this argument makes a STRONGER case for the 2nd amendment referring to weapons equivalent to those possessed by the "military machine" that the founders didn't want to arise in the first place! The argument DEEPLY begs the question when it asserts that the 2nd amendment CAN be interpreted to literally disallow one of the primary reasons it was written in the first place!
The answer(s)?
Cut the "military machine" down to that and only that needed to defend THIS country from external forces (not act as policeman for the whole world). Do we really need 20+ super carrier groups, as planned, to defend this country? Do we really need a "military machine" that can outfight the next 13 nations combined?
ARM the citizenry with comparable weaponry such that it can in principle put up enough of a fight that the above principles seriously come into play.
Continually growing the "military machine" WHILE continually infringing on the armaments possessed by the people is the sure path to tyranny and flies in the face of the founders' CLEAR intent on this subject. But that imbalance can be rectified on both sides by principled-thinking people using the electoral means at our disposal.
^
Boers still lost despite "consistently cause enough trouble over a long enough period"...
Same with the chechen separatist....
Afghans are more on the exception side of things and not the rule.
Besides they don't exactly have a "longstanding democratic tradition" when we leave they are going back to warlordism and Taliban tyranny anyway...
ARM the citizenry with comparable weaponry such that it can in principle put up enough of a fight that the above principles seriously come into play.
Except we don't... Last I checked it very hard to obtain MPADs, RPGs or high explosives needed to wage modern asymmetrical conflict.
this is getting old...
Can we agree the democratic process is likely the best way to achieve meaningful change?
Still need more esoteric.French luxury firearms on the thread...
Except we don't... Last I checked it very hard to obtain MPADs, RPGs or high explosives needed to wage modern asymmetrical conflict.
Actually, it is absurdly easy to make your own comparable things. And your idea of "lost a conflict" is amazingly short-sighted. Where are men and women like our founders that were prepared to fight and die for the mere EFFORT, for the mere HOPE?
The fact that it is hard to obtain the actual weapons (rather than home-made knockoffs) is because of how far we have drifted in our lackadaisical attitude about such quotes as: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." We have entirely lost our way and sought out only comfort, money, and an utterly fake "security." We suckle at the government teat, ever forgetting that the flow is not free, while any awareness of the price we pay is lost in in the din of many voices crying out for more, more, more.
We applaud passages like Jefferson's while naively asserting to ourselves that such men and attitudes were for a different time, a distant time, and that such a time will not arise in the United States again. Certainly that time is not NOW!
But here is a bit more of what Jefferson said surrounding the more well-known passage quoted just above: "And what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.... What signify a few lives lost in a century or two?"
Where is the "spirit of resistance" among us now? Where is the willingness to be among the lives lost by taking up arms?
We have ALLOWED it to become hard to defend OURSELVES, as we have let the tree of true liberty so wither that what we now, today, call "freedom" is a dried up husk of its former glory. Ahh, but we're "safe" and comfortable!
this is getting old... Can we agree the democratic process is likely the best way to achieve meaningful change?
Perhaps. Maybe even "likely." As long as it is not factious!
Part of the problem with agreeing is that I don't have any idea what you mean by "meaningful change."
If what you mean by it is what was signified by Obama's notion of "change," then I say that THAT sort of "change" is nothing but extending the overreaches of tyrannical government that was brought so fully into the light during the Bush administration.
I'm not partisan in my disgust for what our government has become, what we have ALLOWED it to become! And that "change" SLOGAN is not meaningful change! That "change" is just driving us FURTHER down the path toward the utter destruction of liberty in this (once) great nation.
What administration besides a tyrannical one contemplates our current IRS and NSA and MOUTHS the word "change" but actually helps them on their way?
We are OWNED, not free. And we are inured to the depths of our servitude.
So, can I agree that the democratic process is the panacea? No, and Jefferson, Madison, and Hamilton were themselves afraid of the abuses of the democratic process that lead to the very state of faction we now "enjoy." Notice: Many of the tyrants of history were elected to their tyranny.
Yes, I APPRECIATE firearms, and there should be more and more of 'em, of all sorts, in the hands of an AWAKE and RESISTANT citizenry!
Can you imagine if only ten million or so of taxpaying Americans agreed that they simply weren't going to pay any more federal taxes until there was REAL and meaningful tax reform? And let's talk about only the big picture issues that surely ten million could agree upon, such as: The IRS in its present form must completely go away; replace the "progressive tax" we now have with a flat tax with no deductions; EVERYBODY pays the same percentage (rich, poor, corporations, whatever); the filing form is less than one page and proper completion requires only an 80 IQ or better and a calculator that can compute a single-digit percentage.
Notice, I'm not even suggesting doing away with an income tax, although income tax is the worst form of taxation for maintaining a robust economy. I'm saying only that real tax reform amounts to little more than that EVERYBODY PAYS. Everybody, and the exact same percentage of income.
If you're making minimum wage, you pay very little. If you're a big earner, you pay a lot. No deductions (which are nothing more than the government deciding your personal values for you). No exceptions or exemptions. The same percentage from everybody.
Now, imagine that those same ten million were SO committed to tax reform that they were willing to pay ANY price to punch the system between the eyes? They KNOW and have seen it their whole lives: giant corporations and special interests will NEVER voluntarily allow real tax reform to happen! So, what if they were all prepared to go to prison and/or fight and die before their arrest?
Is the rest of taxpaying America really prepared to sit back and watch that level of carnage without demanding immediate and sincere dialog about TRULY "leveling the playing field?"
The current taxation system is so outrageously, egregiously unfair that it is nothing but outright theft, as "progressive" really means "pander to the increasing number of poor, so as to solidify power." Meanwhile, taxpayers pay and pay and pay and PAY to support the ever-increasing number of people that do not contribute but instead just keep poppin' out more and more kids to perpetuate the swirling vortex. And the rich and the corporations laugh all the way to the bank.
But it only takes a significant MINORITY that are really will to pay any price to cry out "ENOUGH," and then you will see "meaningful change."
Is that the "democratic process?" I doubt that's what you mean by the phrase. No, it is instead a robust "spirit of resistance" for which this country is LONG overdue!
it's probably been discussed up thread,
but how about the lovely scenario
where one decides to take a walk
in the national forest, to escape
the hustle.
5 minutes in, just as the serenity
begins to blanket the angst,
I don't reload (yet), but have been fleecing up my brass for decades. (Have quite a stash)
Part of it is just being a good tracker I instinctively minimize my sign.
But sometimes that works the other way, and I know more about my quarry by the empty cases they leave.
So, back to pretty guns.
Sometime I'll post pics of some of the reproductions of late 19th century firearms I have.
Limited edition Winchester lever actions including my dad's Centennial
other lever guns from Henry and Browning and Uberti
the Pedersoli Quigley .45-70 with 34" octagonal barrel
I even have a revolving cavalry carbine
but the prettiest is probably the Browning rolling block Bicentennial Edition .45-70 that comes in its own wooden case with red velvet lining. It is one of a thousand made, and has an eagle inscribed on the receiver along with other scrolling, absolutely incredible furniture with a well checkered fore end.
I bought it from the estate of one of the greatest desert climbers too, my friend Mike Baker.
You mean like the one in the photo of me and Layton in Valley Of Fire?
Its so light that I have a lanyard on it to keep it from floating away.
Yesterday a friend asked me if I could only have 3 handguns then what would I keep;
that would be one of them along with my Sigg 938 and Les Baer Thunder Ranch.
Madbolter, I get that you are impressed with your educational background.
Uhh, no, actually I was responding to your claim that I have no background to know what I'm talking about. It seems that your claim was a case of rocks and glass houses.
Unfortunately, you seem to have lost all common sense.
See above.
You gave up your "right" to self defense long ago, when you started looking for it in documents and grants of authority from the government. I choose to keep mine.
You apparently can't read with comprehension either. My argument ACTUALLY was that governments (and their documents, including the 2nd amendment) are utterly irrelevant to the possession and exercise of inalienable rights, including the right of self defense. So, I was ACTUALLY making precisely the opposite point you now attribute to me.
I AM glad, however, that you have (somehow) taken the substance of my point into your heart, because you WERE arguing the opposite.
So, if for you to get it, in your own mind it requires that we "switch places" in the argument, well, at least you finally get it.
I can't get behind any philosophical 'logic' that claims inalienable rights to posses RPGs. I will vote for politicians who see, as I do, the utter need to regulate firearms.
In this society, today, there is no need of RPGs for SELF defense. Hence, no inalienable right to have them. However, let society change to the point where RPGs are needed for SELF defense, and the right to have (and use) them will not be in any way dependent upon any government's perspective on the matter.
Regarding your voting, that is also your right, and more power to you. I guess that we'll be canceling each other's votes out on this issue. ;-)
Irate man shoots himself in the foot by alienating community members with constant interruptions of the same rant.
Ron, you mentioned Steven Segal shooting .45s. I know people like to bag on him here, but the guy has accomplished a few things in the real world even if he can't act very well. I saw him shoot a .45 in his cop show and he does appear to have some skill there. I'd like to compete against him with my Les Baer and see what he's got.
Looks like 60s, sunny and calm, and the range is 2 miles away, and far less crowded these days. I think I'll send a few.
Clouded up and got a crosswind, but that target is like the crack cocaine of shooting.
Don't underestimate those Finns. After the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917 they staged a little rebellion of their own to secure independence from the former Russia.
Guns are the tool of freedom, so a company was started by the Finnish Guard in Helsinki in 1921 that quickly outgrew its facilities, and relocated to Riihimaki (isn't that something that nature makes?) in 1927 where it continues to this day.
The company is Sako, a name that is synonymous with the most accurate bolt action rifles on the commercial market. It has a long and storied history that includes producing the weapons that allowed the Finns to shake off the Soviet Union once again in the Winter War of 1939.
(Things didn't go so well the following year though)
I love my Suomi 9mm, even though my momma told me,"Don't you buy no ugly gun!"
edit; that picture is interesting but is it a rifle or a slot machine?
My dad has a Sako varmint rifle in .222rem he inherited from his Uncle, with a custom made hand checkered stock. Its a very nice shooting rifle, and really a testament to craftsmanship.
You mentioned reloading Toker. I think I posted a pic of my reloading set up a while back.
My Dad bought me a Lee hand-loader years back, and I have then since added bit by bit. I use a single stage press, balance beam scale, and trickle my loads by hand. I bought old, milled and machined metal components and it cost me very lttle. The reloading has become almost as much of a hobby as the actual shooting.
A lot of guys go whole hog and buy a progressive loader and start loading 8 different calibers, but my advice would to pick one rifle caliber, start with for maximum quality, not quantity, and let your interest and proclivity guide you from there.
Well, the world is your oyster. If you can shoot it, you can reload it!
I suggested a single rifle first because, to me, it's going to cover all variables. When i started, I was loading for 30-30, .30-06, 308, and 223. I was always swapping out dies and had three different powders and a buch of different weight bullets, two sizes of pimers, etc, etc.
The process is the same, but it gets to be a lot of data to keep track of.
Now, if you just pick a load out of the manual, load that, and are happy, things are much simpler. Load as calibers as you want! But if you start trying to fine tune a load, powder, bullet, cartridge to wring the utmost precision for a specific individual firearm, it gets to be a lot to keep track of.
I guess I'll recant my initial advice and say if you're going to load for pistols (or pistol caliber carbines and stuff), especially semi-autos, a progressive press is the way to go.
Once you load twenty of anything, you'll have the idea.
Ya can't reload rimfire. Seems to be in short supply around here.
Read something about being cautious which 40cal firearm you reload for... some of them don't fully support the casing and can cause a bulge at the rear of the brass which prematurely weakens it. Maybe verify yours isn't one of those.
Saw some 380 ammo at the local Walmart the other day. Didn't buy it. Should have... can't find any today. Oops. Oh well.
I would go single stage first, just to get the hang of it. The progressive is really nice for pistols, especially if you're just loading rounds for plinking. I use the single for hunting cause each round needs to be the same or as close as possible and it's easier to focus on each round with the single stage. Reloading is a lot of fun, you get to expirement with different powders and bullets to see what makes the best load for you. Keep good notes and follow the charts and have fun.
When you get a Ph.D. in logic, political philosophy, and ethics, as I have, and you have written formal articles on the subject,
I must first acknowledge and appreciate your extensive knowledge of these fields which continue to enlighten me, and I'm sure others too, however it is this extensive knowledge that makes your repeated intellectual dishonesty more troubling than the relative ignorance espoused by others.
You continually fail (or pretend to fail) to recognize the difference between a philosophical or moral point, and a legal one. You assert tenets of a narrow political philosophy as fact, despite the reality that they are neither provable nor refutable. You fail to acknowledge any variations in political philosophy which do not precisely match either your intended point or actual beliefs.
You have previously said that you have taught students on these topics, but if your lectures follow the pattern of your assertions here I fear that those students have been only selectively enlightened, which is possibly worse than not enlightened at all.
In response to a conversation about selling to criminals:
you haven't explained exactly how my SALE of a gun constitutes a violation of anybody's negative rights. If that gun is later used in a murder, the GUN didn't violate anybody's rights; the USER of the gun did and should be held accountable for that ACTUAL violation of a negative right.
Libertarian philosophy is an admirable moral position, but thankfully only one of many philosophies incorporated into the US Constitution. You act as though this nation was originally a Libertarian Utopia and that all subsequent governments have strayed illegally from that. Your idea that a constitution ratified by the undemocratically appointed delegates of less than four million people has more moral authority than subsequent democratic votes by an exponentially increasing population is absurd.
If the Gun Lobby itself felt that the US Constitution protects an inherent right to unrestricted gun ownership as broad as you claim it does, then they would be actively seeking passage of restrictive laws to challenge in court. Compare the actions of the Gun Lobby with gay-rights activists, who are happy to go to court because they are confident they will win. The Gun Lobby fights passage of laws because it cannot afford a case to go to the Supreme Court, they know that uncompromising positions like yours will not survive legal scrutiny even in the current court.
Ron, with your list of rounds, I would suggest looking at progressive presses. I went with Dillon and have not been sorry. Wildcat loading is not always doable on them though. I no longer have the need for my 40 dies if you get to tooling up.
Always here via e-mail if questions arise. After all I gleaned beta on Zion from you, so I owe you.
I must first acknowledge and appreciate your extensive knowledge of these fields which continue to enlighten me, and I'm sure others too, however it is this extensive knowledge that makes your repeated intellectual dishonesty more troubling than the relative ignorance espoused by others.
I think that you must not be clear on what the phrase "intellectual dishonesty" really means. And you find me very rarely touting my background. I did so in this case to show how ridiculous it is in a forum setting to tell somebody (merely because you don't agree with his perspective) that he has no business talking on the subject because he clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. Agree with me or not; I do know what I'm talking about. So, the potentially fruitful way to discuss is to talk about actual principles and what grounds them.
You continually fail (or pretend to fail) to recognize the difference between a philosophical or moral point, and a legal one.
No, I have repeatedly distinguished between moral principles and legal ones. For example, I despise supposedly "fellow Christians" who have themselves conflated their own narrow notion of morality with what "should" be law in this country.
On the other hand, there is a huge difference between meta-ethics and applied ethics. Our laws had BETTER cohere with meta-ethical principles, or they are entirely wrong-headed and/or arbitrary. So, there cannot be a complete and utter disconnect between "ethics" (really meta-ethics) and legislation in a legitimate government. Are you suggesting (as you call me to task for this) that our laws do not need ANY principled grounding? And if they do need SOME sort of principled grounding, exactly what would be the nature of the principles?
You assert tenets of a narrow political philosophy as fact, despite the reality that they are neither provable nor refutable.
I have NO idea what you are saying here. I cite tenets of the foremost political philosophy that grounded the founding of this nation, and I can prove that it was the grounding philosophy. If you are saying that I can't "prove" the principles themselves, I have NO idea what the "prove" bar you are talking about even is. YOU can't "prove" that you have hands!
You know how to compose sentences well enough that you can appear to make a claim that is in fact bereft of meaning. "Neither provable nor refutable?" Are you trying to say that Libertarian principles are in fact vacuous? Are you saying that philosophical argumentation is itself worthless? (If so, then you are yourself engaged in a self-refuting enterprise in your own post.)
I honestly have NO idea what you even think you are trying to say here.
You fail to acknowledge any variations in political philosophy which do not precisely match either your intended point or actual beliefs.
Obviously false. I not only acknowledge them, but I take arguing against them very seriously! And "precisely match" is (again) an entirely hyperbolic account of my perspectives.
You have previously said that you have taught students on these topics, but if your lectures follow the pattern of your assertions here I fear that those students have been only selectively enlightened, which is possibly worse than not enlightened at all.
There is a HUGE difference between teaching and arguing on a forum for a particular perspective. You should know that and not even bother with an obviously ridiculous comment like the above. In fact, that comment reveals the true nature of your "argumentation."
Oh, on that other point....
The cited post in NO way says that I "support selling to criminals." I talk about "if the gun is LATER used in a murder...." That does not suggest or state that the gun was sold to a known murderer.
What I've said is that the burden of argumentation is on the part of anti-gun-people to explain exactly HOW (the principled basis of) their legislative proposals are internally consistent. And the problem for them continues to be that they are QUICK to suggest sweeping laws that criminalize GUNS, when instead they should be seeking solutions that take seriously the problem of human responsibility in the USE of guns.
As I said in the passage you cited, the issue is not GUNS but is instead the problem of human responsibility and accountability. You do not legitimately get from that passage that I support the sale of guns to known criminals, and I do not. I merely point out how unprincipled these various knee-jerk and reactive proposed "solutions" really are.
Libertarian philosophy is an admirable moral position, but thankfully only one of many philosophies incorporated into the US Constitution.
That statement is ludicrous on many levels. I don't know where to begin. You literally do not understand the distinctions that would underlie a proper refutation of that statement.
You act as though this nation was originally a Libertarian Utopia and that all subsequent governments have strayed illegally from that.
False. The word "utopia" is hyperbolic. I believe that the United States was far, far more Libertarian-principled at its founding and that is has indeed drifted far from such philosophical principles. We have swung from Libertarian to Communitarian in our thinking, voting, and legislating; and that cannot be denied. But "utopia" makes a straw man of my perspective.
Your idea that a constitution ratified by the undemocratically appointed delegates of less than four million people has more moral authority than subsequent democratic votes by an exponentially increasing population is absurd.
Actually, the perspective you have just stated is philosophically unsustainable.
But I see that you prefer to make sweepingly dismissive (and incorrect) statements of my positions, so I will respond in kind. The fact is that that document DOES have far more "moral authority" than the bare majority vote among hundreds of millions today. And the fundamental problem YOU keep ignoring is the problem of "majority faction" (Federalist 10). If you ever come to understand the nature of that problem, you will START to see why your statement is just ridiculous.
If the Gun Lobby itself felt that the US Constitution protects an inherent right to unrestricted gun ownership as broad as you claim it does, then they would be actively seeking passage of restrictive laws to challenge in court.
And you know ANY of this how? You are privy to the "Gun Lobby" secret-handshake strategy? You know in and out how "they" (whatever that means) prioritize what they can get to fly and what they know can never fly in this present climate?
Compare the actions of the Gun Lobby with gay-rights activists, who are happy to go to court because they are confident they will win. The Gun Lobby fights passage of laws because it cannot afford a case to go to the Supreme Court, they know that uncompromising positions like yours will not survive legal scrutiny even in the current court.
Thank you for making my just previous point. YOU cannot have it both ways. Either "the strategy" (as if it were as monolithic as you suggest) is a function of what is really believed by the "Gun Lobby" but that cannot possibly fly in THIS CLIMATE, or it reveals that the Gun Lobby itself doesn't believe in "unrestricted gun rights" (again, whatever that means, and however it is relevant to a discussion with ME, since I do not believe in "unrestricted" anything!). In one paragraph, you have argued for both positions. How does "the strategy" provide for both?
The two problems I think you have in arguing with me on this subject are:
1) You have me believing what I don't believe and asserting positions that I have not asserted. So, you repeatedly argue past me.
2) You suggest that "philosophical" or "moral" points can be entirely separated from "legal" ones. I state that they cannot (and still have laws remain principled and legitimate). I continually press anti-gun-people to explain what philosophical/moral principles ground their proposed legislation. You seem to think that I'm being disingenuous and even "intellectually dishonest" for so doing. Sorry. I don't budge on this one.
Do you consider "classical liberalism" and "libertarianism" to be interchangeable philosophy within the context of the founding of are nation?
There are definite and significant similarities, although I would not call them "interchangeable" for several reasons:
1) "Classical liberalism" emerged as a distinguishable philosophical position later than the founding of our nation. So, whatever you might call the "liberalism" of the founders, it doesn't perfectly map onto "classical liberalism." Here is just one example of a disconnect. Most of the founders (to the extent that they talked about it) did not believe in laissez faire economics, yet this is a defining characteristic of "classical liberalism." So, the founders were not "classical liberals" in that sense.
2) "Libertarianism" is a fairly recent term, so would not have been known to the founders, even though I think that "philosophical libertarianism" most closely maps onto the majority perspective among the founders (federalists and anti-federalists alike).
3) The term "libertarianism" today suffers from a significant ambiguity. What most philosophers think of by that term is not what most non-philosophers think of, thanks to the "libertarian party." So, a distinction really must be made between "philosophical libertarianism" and "political libertarianism." Thus, the "interchangeability" you mention would have to be very clear about even which "version" of "libertarianism" you were talking about.
Perhaps such distinctions seem merely "academic," but diving into them and becoming even more clear has real value. For example, "classical libertarianism" has a very significant economic-theory element, which is to say that it presumes a certain economic "meta-theory," if you will. And that economic meta-theory was not (at least not apparently) shared by the founders.
What the founders, philosophical libertarians, and classical liberals all share are some core principles about the primacy of the individual over the collective. And from a few of those core "axioms," you can derive the reason this nation was founded as it was, including the particular verbiage you see in the founding documents.
For example, the notion of an "inalienable right" grounds rights in individuals, apart from all governments and societies, and therefore immune to the vagaries of governments, majorities, community interests, and so forth. This was (obviously) a founding principle, and it is shared by philosophical libertarians and classical liberals. It is rejected by communitarians; indeed it is one of the "axioms" of communitarianism to reject this principle.
Another example is the primacy of values. Philosophical libertarians believe that individual values are logically prior to community values, while communitarians believe that the logical priority is reversed. Again, quite obviously this country was founded on a libertarian notion of the primacy of values. And it's of note that what you believe on just this one principle alone will "inform" a whole host of implications for how you think legislation should be done and what "legitimate" legislation should look like.
On that point, the reason Federalist 10 is so important is that it clearly explicates the threat to the libertarian notion of the primacy of individual rights and values, namely "majority faction;" and it provides the only possible remedy for majority faction in a democratic republic. So, that article by itself clarifies the extent to which the founders were libertarian as opposed to communitarian in their thinking, as well as the extent to which they feared ANY "community" (even if composed of a "majority") making laws that would violate individual rights and impose a set of "community values."
We can get into the definitions in as fine or coarse-grained detail as proves useful in this sort of discussion. In a forum setting, I try to not get too "heavy," because most people won't tolerate the clarifying and clarifying that is the bread and butter of fine-grained distinctions.
Suffice to say that the founders were very fine-grained in their thinking, and they understood exactly what they were setting up. We can apply this or that label now, long after the fact, and those labels (meaning what we take them to mean now) will more or less map onto the founders' thinking.
For the purposes of discussions here, I have preferred to, in quite coarse-grained fashion, simply contrast philosophical libertarianism and philosophical communitarianism. I think that in coarse-grained fashion, those two schools of thought best capture what the founders intended to set up (the former) as opposed to the sort of principles they most feared and that are now becoming more and more the majority perspective (the latter).
"Interchangeable?" No. Close enough for rock and roll. Sure.
"Classical liberalism" emerged as a distinguishable philosophical position later than the founding of our nation. So, whatever you might call the "liberalism" of the founders, it doesn't perfectly map onto "classical liberalism."
Madbolter, Pelut didn't jack yer thread about his weak sauce with a namby
pamby euro take on libertarian bashy smashing so why don't you start an
anti-gun thread of its own. On this thread you gots no choir to preach
to anyway and we and the SCOTUS have heard all that high falutin' talk before. ;-)
Jonnyrig,
damn right you should have grabbed the .380
Almost as rare as rimfire. I picked up 300 rds at Walmart a month ago scoring big time (and now that I have a Sigg 938 the only time I'll pick up my LCP is low light but not dark, for the laser).
Bob,
I'm way ahead of you with about 50,000 once fired cases, thousands of primers of different sizes, a variety of popular powders, over 10,000 bullets in aforementioned calibers (plus some to load black powder .45LC and .45-70), a Dillon 650 NIB, and a bunch of accessories stacked in the garage.
Now I need a loading room (I can see getting other presses too. A guy I know of in Arizona has a loading room with 7 presses.).
I can take my time though. Not gonna run out of cartridges for a few decades.
72 People Killed Resisting Gun Confiscation in Massachusetts!
Posted by Staff on March 09, 2014
Boston – National Guard units seeking to confiscate a cache of recently banned assault weapons were ambushed by elements of a Para-military extremist faction. Military and law enforcement sources estimate that 72 were killed and more than 200 injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw.
Speaking after the clash, Massachusetts Governor Thomas Gage declared that the extremist faction, which was made up of local citizens, has links to the radical right-wing tax protest movement.
Gage blamed the extremists for recent incidents of vandalism directed against internal revenue offices. The governor, who described the group’s organizers as “criminals,” issued an executive order authorizing the summary arrest of any individual who has interfered with the government’s efforts to secure law and order.
The military raid on the extremist arsenal followed wide-spread refusal by the local citizenry to turn over recently outlawed assault weapons.
Gage issued a ban on military-style assault weapons and ammunition earlier in the week. This decision followed a meeting in early this month between government and military leaders at which the governor authorized the forcible confiscation of illegal arms.
One government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, pointed out that “none of these people would have been killed had the extremists obeyed the law and turned over their weapons voluntarily.”
Government troops initially succeeded in confiscating a large supply of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However, troops attempting to seize arms and ammunition in Lexington met with resistance from heavily-armed extremists who had been tipped off regarding the government’s plans.
During a tense standoff in the Lexington town park, National Guard Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the government operation, ordered the armed group to surrender and return to their homes. The impasse was broken by a single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of the right-wing extremists.
Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing exchange.
Ironically, the local citizenry blamed government forces rather than the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be restored, armed citizens from surrounding areas had descended upon the guard units. Colonel Smith, finding his forces over matched by the armed mob, ordered a retreat.
Governor Gage has called upon citizens to support the state/national joint task force in its effort to restore law and order. The governor also demanded the surrender of those responsible for planning and leading the attack against the government troops.
Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, and John Hancock, who have been identified as “ringleaders” of the extremist faction, remain at large.
And this fellow Americans, is how the American Revolution began, April 20, 1775.
On July 4th, 1776 these same "right wing anti-tax extremists" signed the Declaration of Independence, pledging to each other and their countrymen their lives, fortunes, and sacred honor. Many of them lost everything, including their families and their lives over the course of the next few years.
Ruby Ridge, white supremacist religious nuts... I mean Merkin heroes. Question is, would they still be heroes if they were La Raza in Arizona?
30 years ago NO ONE talked about this sort of thing that is now commonly discussed.
Bullshit! My right-wing religious gun nut relatives have been talking about this sort of thing since as long as I can remember. Many of them bought remote land way up in the hills, armed themselves to the hilt, and have been waiting for the revolution for well over 40 years. Generations before that did similar things. The anti-American miscreant mentality has existed since the country was formed... usually in the right-wing racists conservative faction.
I didn't say anything about foreign invaders dipsh#t. You simply assume they are foreign because they are brown and proud of their heritage? That's pretty racist. You think white folks aren't foreign invaders?
So if they are born and raised here, but take pride in their Hispanic heritage, they are foreign invaders? But a white supremacist in Montana is somehow different? Racist.
yeah you firearm afficianatos are really great. down the street from my house people have started up a shooting range on public land. now trash,broken glass, old car parts,left-over targets and spent casings litter the area. used to be a great place to run my dog but now he is a little freaked out from all the rounds going off. sweet!
How far from your house? They,re probably doing it illegally, and you should call the cops.
Likely they are-
a. too close to a residence. most juristictions have minimum distance requirements
b. littering, or taking advantage of others litter as convenient targets. either way, not good.
So in addition to bitching here maybe you could be proactive in solving your problem.
An old boar that's been rutting for acorns most of it's life would probably be just about uneatable unless you were starving to death.
During WWII dad was a USMC MP assigned to a remote location on the N end of Oahu. They'd do frequent patrols both via jeep and horseback of the back paths and roads looking for infiltrating Japs and anyone else that wasn't supposed to be there.
Now troops in the pacific that did get fresh meat subsisted on a diet heavy with mutton imported from NZ and Australia. not tender lamb, but grizzled old sheep that no longer produced wool.
His unit had a good navy cook, but they were burned out on a diet of mutton and fish, (mostly acquired via hand grenade fishing).
On one patrol they saw the brush moving and got out to investigate the cause. it was a rather large boar. The prospect of fresh pork was too much to pass up.
now dad was armed with a Thomson SMG with a 50 round drum. The pig was at close range so he had it on single shot and put a .45 round right between its eyes. The pig just grunted and started after them. Dad jumped in the back of the jeep and his driver hit the gas with the pig in hot pursuit. Switching to full auto he unloaded the full 50 round drum on the presumptive porcine.
When they butchered him the skull was over an inch thick and the fat provided several inches of body armor. The Between the eyes shot produced a mere flesh wound and most of the rounds tunneled and tumbled thru the fat layers doing no mortal damage.
Once I was waiting for a flagperson to reopen a road under construction. The work was visible from a mile off. After a minute a car pulled up behind my truck. A minute later the flagperson's eyes suddenly bulged and she jumped back just as I heard a crash. Then I got hit from behind.
Some ditz was too busy to watch the road and had totalled herself on the car behind me sending it into me so hard that, even ignoring the damage the the rear of the car it was a total wreck on the front end.
Trailer hitch caught most of it with $400 damage to the bumper.
Oh, and, turns out the ditz fancies herself a climber.
I was in SE AZ last year, literally a hundred yards from the border, when I
come across this illegal in the bushes. We had about a five second staredown
and then he charged me. I thought I was gonna have to go all Bruce Lee on
his little brown azz but he veered off at the last second.
Cute piggy thingy.
Yeah, im ok. Just one of those days. Such nice weather, it would be nice to climb something. Or fish a bit. Or shoot targets.
But if im not watching little kids im playing host to parents, or fixing somebody else' broke down POS.
Going to be putting in for tags soon. Hope to get another elk. We'll see.
"yeah you firearm afficianatos are really great. down the street from my house people have started up a shooting range on public land. now trash,broken glass, old car parts,left-over targets and spent casings litter the area. used to be a great place to run my dog but now he is a little freaked out from all the rounds going off. sweet!"
OMG! YOU CAR DRIVERS ARE REALLY GREAT. SOME ASSHOLE DID A BUNCH OF DONUTS WITH HIS CAR IN MY FIELD, SLINGING MUD EVERYWHERE AND DIGGING DEEP TRACS, AND THE TAKE AWAY FOR ANYONE ON THIS IT THAT ALL YOU F*#KING CAR DRIVERS ARE ASSHOLES. THANKS ALL YOU CAR DRIVERS, MY PLACE IS TRASHED AND THE DOG CAN'T RUN IN A STRAIGHT LINE ANYMORE CAUSE OF THE BIG DITCHES.
I find redneck/bait fisherman to be the biggest slobs but our local bootleg/unregulated range is a shithole as well. I cleaned the range up once on greenup day and 3 months later it was a complete trash pile again. the fisherman/creatures are beyond the pale. these folks are defintly wall marts finest customers. Fishing holes always seem to sport cigertete butts, tangled line, bait containers, food wrappers,dead fish, bud light cans, used diapers and dog sh#t. Why do people fish when they don't even like to eat fish. they just catch them, kill them, leave em laying there to rot while they dig into annother bag of Doritos.
Good thing the local boy scouts get out to the range for a cleanup every couple of years, but the residual micro-trash is beginning to create a "Little Falujah" feel to the place.
N FRANCISCO -- A California state senator who advocated gun control legislation asked for campaign donations in exchange for introducing an undercover FBI agent to an arms trafficker and told him how to get shoulder-fired automatic weapons and missiles from a Muslim separatist group in the Philippines, according to court documents unsealed Wednesday.
The allegations against state Sen. Leland Yee were outlined in an FBI affidavit in support of a criminal complaint. The affidavit accuses Yee of conspiracy to deal firearms without a license and to illegally import firearms. He was arrested Wednesday and appeared later in federal court, where bail was set at $500,000
Yee discussed helping the agent get weapons worth $500,000 to $2.5 million, including shoulder-fired automatic weapons and missiles, and took him through the entire process of acquiring them from a Muslim separatist group in the Philippines to bringing them to the United States, according to the affidavit by FBI Special Agent Emmanuel V. Pascua.
Suppose I invent an atomic gun. You know, that kind which shoots radioactive bullets. Is my right to right to own and open (or closed) carry this device protected by the "gun-runner" amendment to the Consitution? Or even, a weakly radioactive one?
Depleted uranium is very dense; at 19,050 kg/m³, it is 1.67 times as dense as lead, only slightly less dense than tungsten and gold, and 84% as dense as osmium or iridium, which are the densest known substances under standard (i.e., Earth-surface) pressures. Consequently a DU projectile of given mass has a smaller diameter than an equivalent lead projectile, with less aerodynamic drag and deeper penetration due to a higher pressure at point of impact. DU projectile ordnance is often inherently incendiary because of its pyrophoric property.
At Dixie Gun & Fish it has been black friday every day since black friday. It looks like half their inventory is sold. They normally stock 40-50 Glocks, but they sold the last one 4 days ago!
The pistol cases are so empty that it looks like the Scarf Store after Johnny Depp went shopping there.
There was a gun show in San Diego this weekend. One ammo merchant sold out
his 20,000 rounds in an hour. If he made a nickel/round he made $1000 in an hour.
Not bad!
I understood it when there was Obama paranoia, or even the run on .22 (stupid hoarders), but what is the crisis now? Is this really a knee jerk response to Paris and San Bernadino? Equally stupid.
Let us know!