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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 14, 2013 - 02:07am PT
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Mystery Nut - Colorado Nut/Clogwyn/Gendarme
This is the nut I am trying to identify.
John Markwell made a hex similar to this in 1965, called a Markwell Hex. Sometime later (years?) the hex was called a Gendarme Hex.
Gendarme Nuts -1971/1972 - Steve Richards, John Markwell, John Livingston.
I have yet to find proof that a Gendarme Hex was mass produced and sold previous than 1969. John Markwell opened a climbing shop and started manufacturing Gendarme Nuts in 1971/1972, which were sold to the public. This Gendarme Hex was supposedly available, being sold to the public predating Dolt Saddlechocks in 1967. If true then John Markwell is credited for being the first to manufacture nuts (Gendarme Hex) in the USA.
 Below is the 1969 Holubar Catalog.
This 1969 catalog shows that the mystery nut is a Colorado Nut. The Colorado Nuts listed are numbered in inches, which is exactly what is stamped on Colorado Nuts. The hex shown in the catalog photo is 1 1/2 in size which is the same size as the 1 1/2 Colorado Nut. Colorado Nuts were first manufactured in 1968 in the full range up to the 1 1/2 size. But the 1 1/2 Colorado nut looks different than the catalog photo. So if Holubar was ordering hexes from the Colorado Nut company, and its obvious that nuts look different, where did this nut photo come from and why is it in the catalog?
Below is the 1970 Holubar Catalog.
This 1970 catalog shows that the mystery nut is now a Clogwyn Nut, with a listing as Hexagons. The Hexagon listing is in numbers not in inches, so Colorado Nuts I guess are completely removed. There does however exist a photo of a Colorado Nut with a #5 stamp. Hence another mystery. So now Holubar is selling Clogwyn Hexagons up to size #7. Size 7 is 1 1/2, same as the mystery nut. But Clogwyn Hexagons look different than the Hex in the catalog photo, but yet again the photo of the mystery nut is still there, rather large picture, rather obvious, but Holubar does not sell this nut…..?)
--Below is the 1971 Holubar Catalog.
This 1971 catalog shows that the mystery nut is a Clogwyn Hexagon. But now the listing for Hexagons does not include the #7 size. The listing stops at 1 1/4, but the mystery nut in the photo is still the possible Gendarme Hex, which is 1 1/2. Why did Holubar stop selling the Hexagon #7 anyways? So my question is, is this mystery nut a Gendarme Hex? Why would Holubar not identify it as a Gendarme Hex since it would have been an obvious different hex, with similar size, to the sets they were selling. These days many catalogs sell many of same item stuff (ex: sets of cams to choose from), but back in the late 1960s, it was one of each item stuff.
Always an Adventure! Happy Holidays! -------Marty
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dec 14, 2013 - 04:15am PT
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The main difference between your mystery hex and the others
is the diameter of the long hole - it is small and not countersunk.
Most of the nuts in your color photos have larger diameter holes,
or the hole is countersunk.
The Holubar catalog uses the same photo in different years to
sell different brands, so it is not very definitive.
Better would be to have an ad made by the company who made the nut.
[Edit:] based on the posts and photos below, it seems clear now that it's a prototype Colorado Nut.
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local
Social climber
eldorado springs
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Dec 14, 2013 - 10:36am PT
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It could be a Colorado Nut. Early on, in particular, we experimented with a lot of variations in hole size, location, countersink configurations and depth, etc.
From the photo, it doesn't look like there are band saw marks on the cut ends, which many of our early prototypes had before we started cutting the hex stock with a carbide toothed cutoff saw. Later production models were sanded on the ends, the sling holes countersunk with a radius countersink, then tumbled to a bright finish. The holes in the sides were replaced by a larger hole drilled in the end.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Dec 14, 2013 - 10:51am PT
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Did you stamp “Colorado Nut” on your early prototypes, or did this logo come later?
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local
Social climber
eldorado springs
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Dec 14, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
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It's been over 40 years, so my memory is a bit foggy, but this is what I remember.
We started making nuts in the basement of a house in the Capitol Hill neighborhood of Denver in 1967 or 68. We moved the shop to Eldorado in 1970, then out to Marshall in 71 or 72. Most of the production runs were done in Eldorado.
We made a series of prototypes without numbers or inch designations. We basically drilled holes in anything that would fit into a crack.
We used number stamps until we had the inch stamps made.
We did not have the equipment to drill the large hole in the ends of the 1 1/2 hexes, so we had that work done at Triton Tool in Boulder.
At one point, we had a dozen or so dealers selling our gear. We decided to suspend operations for several reasons.
We weren't sure what our liability was if something broke.
We were getting enough orders that we needed to spend 8 hours a day on the drill press or cutoff saw, and we weren't sure if that was what we wanted to do for a living. We weren't making all that much money, anyway.
It became clear that evolving designs were superior to our hexes and I-beams and it would require a considerable investment in tooling and custom extrusions to keep up with the rest of the industry, which was quickly becoming saturated with new designs.
When we informed our dealers that we were suspending operations, basically because we were too successful and it was too much work, they were a little taken aback, but quickly got over it and were well supplied by other companies that came along.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 14, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
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Thanks for the details, Billy!
I posted a shot of a Gendarme Hex without the lightening holes here.The edge finishing details match the Gendarme wedges to my satisfaction based on the source. I got it along with another Gendarme nut in an auction lot.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1397992&msg=1878381#msg1878381
In the absence of a stamp makes it a matter of matching the finish details, taper and dimensions against known entities. The points on a Gendarme Hex aren't ground away like the Colorado and Clog versions.
Check your nut against a Clog wedge the same approximate size. By the center hole size and length I think that is likely a Clog hex (as shown in the catalog shot) but it all has to match to your liking.
The Colorado Nuts are fabricated to overlap by increments of 1/8" one to the next and the lengths usually are set to fill in the sizes between the standard hexagonal stock dimensions. I don't know if Clog tried to keep to this scheme.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 14, 2013 - 02:31pm PT
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With their wide flare Gendarme wedges work really well in Eldo.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 14, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
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Markwell used the taper from the classic MOAC nut and simply reduced the height to produce the classic Gendarme wedge shape.
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pimp daddy wayne
Gym climber
Manchester, VT
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Dec 14, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
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This is awesome
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 14, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
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Those Seneca Rocks Museum shots are pretty fish-eyed.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 15, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
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Billy- How much did you guys vary the taper on the end cuts for the hexes during early production?
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local
Social climber
eldorado springs
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Dec 15, 2013 - 09:42pm PT
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I don't recall the angle, but we settled on something that seemed to work well in cracks around Boulder, the Platte, and in the Park. Strictly trial and error.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 15, 2013 - 10:34pm PT
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The reason that I ask is to help Marty nail this down by matching the end taper on his mystery nut if you guys were reasonably consistent on that detail during production which seems likely to me. Two Colorado hexes with the same end taper should yield a straight run when opposed and in line.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Dec 15, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
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Markwell's stoppers were really good!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Dec 16, 2013 - 03:30am PT
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great story fort mental
love that scrap heap pic up a few posts.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 16, 2013 - 04:43am PT
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What this country needed Back Then was a nut that you could auto-click to enlarge or smallen.
Who and when whill whee see a camming device museum?
Whoo-hoo, start collecting, boys, girls, and mystery nuts!
I hope there's lots of Good Stuff in all your stockings, too, lads & ladies:
Nuts, orange webbing, and cams, lots of cams, eh? Maybe even new shoes in the stocking?
Ed Hartouni & Peter Haan, especially, have a Wide Christmas!
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
Technically...the spawning grounds of Yosemite
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Dec 16, 2013 - 09:04am PT
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I love this thread. ")
So much to learn, I'm just really diggin' it.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2013 - 11:34am PT
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So Billy,
Have you been lurking since July and decided to chime in on a relevant post or were you alerted to this thread? Just curious.
I'd like to check out that junk pile at Sibleys but am afraid to stop by as every time I se him he asks if I'll help put a new metal roof on the shop....
Cheers Billy ... etal.
Prod.
AKA Guy Kenny
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Dec 16, 2013 - 11:44am PT
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That scrap heap hurts just a bit... Been trying to get ahold of some of the I-beam chocks for years, ever since climbing with one crazy bastard who had one he bootied. That thing was magic on almost every pitch.
To see a whole grave yard full of your own white whale just hurts a bit...
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Prod
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
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Moof,
You can buy I beam aluminum and cut it with a carpentry chop saw or table saw. Note on the table saw. It can and will bind and kick back more than wood. So stay aware and out of the kick back zone.
Helps if you wax the blade with a candle or bowling alley wax.
Prod.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Dec 16, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
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Good stuff guys!
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local
Social climber
eldorado springs
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Dec 16, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
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Guy, nice to hear from you. I'm just working away at the AMC. If you do stop out at Marshall, you'll find the scrap yard has been scraped clean and recycled. I'm sorry to say there are no more scrap I-beams or hexes.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Dec 17, 2013 - 11:27am PT
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Sorry to hijack but...
Marty's post got me thinking about a hex I received last week. It was sold to me as homemade due to off center drilling but it just seems more substantial. What do you think about this mystery hex?
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Dec 20, 2013 - 11:12am PT
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Mine has rounded corners...doubt a DIY'er would bother with that. Colorado Nut?
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Dec 20, 2013 - 12:14pm PT
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Good observation(s)!
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local
Social climber
eldorado springs
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Dec 20, 2013 - 12:15pm PT
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Looks like it could be either an early prototype Colorado Nut or a home made piece. We definitely did some crude work like that, but not a lot of those pieces made it into circulation.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Dec 20, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
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The end holes are counter sunk on some of the pics up thread.
I'll check with the guy that sold to me to see if he remembers where/who it came from. Let you know...once I hear back!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2013 - 11:16am PT
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Thanks everybody for your replies! Thanks Billy for filling us in on the Colorado Nut history.
A few questions remain. Maybe Stephane can answer the Clog questions.
-When Clog Hexagons were first created, was it a set of 6, where the #7 was added years later?
-Did Clog ever create a #7 Hexagon with extra lightening holes? (Which would look similar to the Gendarme / Colorado Proto Hex #7).
-What year was the Gendarme Hex Nut first created for public sale?
Steve, can you show us a side photo and angled/overall photo of your Gendarme Hex?
Happy Holidays everybody! Marty
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 21, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
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Moof- I was stoked to dig around in that pile too when I saw the photo.
Once I actually came to Sibley's shop to interview those guys to my horror he had TAKEN IT ALL TO BE RECYCLED!
Twas a dagger through my collector's heart!
Fortunately Billy and Paul had no problem with the idea of coming over with a length of the proper I-Beam stock and making a couple of sets of I-beams in the original manner. They still have all the stamps to get the job done and I get to video the entire process for historical sake.
I love the I-beam chocks! Charlie Porter made some really nice ones too.
Deep in the bowels of Moby Dick Center when the light is right you can see a big I-beam winking at you along with a few other goodies.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Dec 22, 2013 - 04:37am PT
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-When Clog Hexagons were first created, was it a set of 6, where the #7 was added years later?
-Did Clog ever create a #7 Hexagon with extra lightening holes?
In 1966, in the long-abandoned cinema of Deiniolen (Wales), Denny Moorhouse and Shirley Smith, two original personalities, created the most mythical factory of climbing hardware, Clogwyn Climbing Gear, known as Clog for short. At that time, a day on which they produced 24 nuts was reckoned to be a good one! At the end of that year, Denny Moorhouse made his first Hexagons which inspired many later on. The size 6 was called Jumbo, the size 7 Mammoth! In few years, Clog became the generic word for nut in the language of climbers around the world. In the early 70's, Troll and Clog marketed a full arsenal of passive nuts covering a wide range of crack widths.
Troll, but not Clogwyn Climbing Gear, produced Hexagons with extra lightening holes.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 22, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
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Thanks Stephane, wonderful history!
-So this leaves one question .....-What year was the Gendarme Hex Nut first created for public sale?
Hmmmmm.........1971/1972 with the first Gendarme nuts..........or earlier?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 22, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
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Unless you see a Gendarme Hex in one of their catalogs, I am not sure they even offered them for sale. I don't have any of their catalogs for reference.
The Hex design didn't have anything new to offer and they are certainly much less common that the wedge shape.
Marty- I will try and post a picture of the end taper for you here soon.
Billy- Did you guys do end tapers with a bandsaw at any point?
The milling marks on the nut that Roots has were certainly cut that way.
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local
Social climber
eldorado springs
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Dec 22, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
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Yes, we did make end cuts with a little horizontal band saw until we started using a 14" cut-off saw with a triple chip carbide blade. We blew up at least one blade cutting I-beam. There were several carbide teeth stuck in the ceiling of the old Eldorado Shop as a reminder to build and use bombproof jigs. Scary business.
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Dec 23, 2013 - 03:22am PT
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Marty, Steve, to my knowledge, the Gendarme Hex Nut has never been shown in a "The Gendarme" catalog.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Dec 23, 2013 - 11:49am PT
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Ditto that...fantastic stuff!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 23, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
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Here is another clue...
Markwell angled his sling holes to taper along with the ends.
If you compare the hole separation on top and bottom they are different with the top a bit wider.
The Clog offerings are drilled in parallel I suspect so scale yer nuts brother and report back.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 27, 2013 - 09:35pm PT
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Mystery Bump...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 31, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
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Gear Bump...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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The Gendarme Hex that I have is milled from 1 1/4" stock.
The cut width of the top is just shy of 1 5/8" and the bottom width is just over 1 1/4" (-/+ 1/32"). That makes the side cut of the ends about 5/32".
The sling holes are angled half that angle with top edge separation of 3/8" and bottom 3/16".
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Apr 14, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
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The hex I posted above was homemade. I was able to confirm this with the guy that made it.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2014 - 08:51pm PT
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So resolving the mystery nut I am calling it a first generation Colorado Nut.
I still wonder however if the Gendarme Hexes were ever mass produced for public sale. Good stuff!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Unless you find one listed in one of their catalogs then the answer is no.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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I made about three sets of nuts out of scrap hex stock back around 1970-71 Tobin ended up with one set. I can't remember who ended up with the other ones.
I didn't chamfer the lightening holes that deep, so that's definitely not one of them.
I would imagine there were plenty of home made hexes produced in the late 60's and early 70's.
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local
Social climber
eldorado springs
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The nut on the purple sling looks like it could be one of ours before we had the Colorado Nut stamp, or it could someone else's. The technology to make one was certainly there for everyone at the time.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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I was perusing some catalogs this morning and noticed that Clog hexes topped out at 1 1/4" and the nut shown above looks to be a tad larger which would favor the Colorado Nut option.
Edit: I just saw the #7 Clog hex listed in your OP at 1 1/2" stock width so the above isn't definitive.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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How about this hex? S.C.2
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nutstory
climber
Ajaccio, Corsica, France
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Roots: "S" stands for Simond (Chamonix) and "C" stands for Chock. Your nut is a Simond Chock #2. Simond Chocks hit the market in 1977. On the smallest sizes "Simond" cannot be full stamped.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Wow - thank you for the help! I never would have guessed that stood for Simond Chock. Very nice.
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Gunks Jesse
Trad climber
Shawangunk, NY
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Thought I'd add a couple of photos of two Colorado Nut Hexes to the discussion. Some of you may have seen the Colorado Nut aluminum I-Beam Chocks sell on eBay a few weeks back. These will soon have the same fate as I thin down.
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Gunks Jesse
Trad climber
Shawangunk, NY
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Aug 25, 2015 - 07:06pm PT
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Can anyone provide the dimensions of the Colorado Nut hexes? I have the dims of the two I showed above, but want to complete the set with my own homemade versions. Would just need dimension across flats and overall length. I can work out the rest.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 10, 2016 - 08:08am PT
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Early Clog experiments? These are carrying the mark "Rejected"
Early Clog - carrying the Clog logo
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Aug 10, 2016 - 08:13am PT
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Mark Force, ? Roots? We need to talk!
I'm not after it but you should be, I'm not going to share although you know, I'm sure of what it is that I alluded to a month or so ago in da flames....
See you I hope
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 10, 2016 - 08:47am PT
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Gnome.
What did you allude to?
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Aug 10, 2016 - 09:44am PT
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Sorry, that was cheesy of me; There Is a hoard of old Gear that may or may not be available. Im not at all able to transact but have the contact info to the Daughter of the original owner. She has passed the responsibility to another 'climber', A complete N00b, with no knowledge of what it is he has. sadly I stepped out of the 'back & forth, and the Innocent Legacy mis-understood there delicate nature of acquiring said Valuable items for a reasonable price.
S.O.P, is to not let this, stuff pass out of the most dedicated of the tribe.
so now Im thinking of the need for a Big gun, or at least someone with more than a dust filled wallet to come and save this stuff, I would also love to get some of these things to THEE ORIGINAL so her daughter can have some of her grandfathers home made gear...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 10, 2016 - 10:25am PT
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Check your email Gnome.
Cheers
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 10, 2016 - 12:24pm PT
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Gnome.
I can help save this stuff for a reasonable price. I will stay away from gear of American origin and cams.
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Duderino
climber
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Sep 14, 2017 - 05:55am PT
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Cool thread.
I just got a bunch of gear from an old swedish alpinist, and started researching the pieces I haven't seen before. These doesn't seem to be all that common. Thought I'd post up (first time) and add them to the known specimens. I think the previous owner was the first and only owner, I have to ask how he got them. In the same pile of gear, there was also a couple of the troll one hole wedges shown by Marlow upthread.
The photos are bad but they are both stamped REJECT, only the wire nut has CLOG 4 stamped on the opposite side.
Would be interesting to know how many of these are out there.
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