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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 9, 2013 - 10:35pm PT
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I have my own definition but i'm interested in what others think. The definitions for rock climber, boulderer, gym climber, ice climber and sport climber are obvious. I don't think that is the case for "alpinist".....what's your take?
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this just in
climber
north fork
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"walking slowly, feeling poorly"
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Grippa
Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Alpinism is:
Remote
Commmitment required
Objective hazards
Ice
Rock
Snow
Summits
Failures
Gravity is your worst enemy
Cold
Boots
I feel like alpinism is used a little to generally now to describe what is essentially cragging after a few hour walk. This encompasses 75% of the climbs in the sierra, wasatch, rockies, and tetons.
But then again it's all condition dependent right? As the scots say you need to climb Ben Nevis in "True Scottish Conditions" or else your ascent doesn't matter. Ahhhh f*#k it I'm grabbing a beer...
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dagibbs
Trad climber
Ottawa, Ontario
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I think alpinist is someone who is interested in alpine ascents... reaching peaks/ridges, with less focus on the difficulty or specific technique of the ascent, but more on the goal itself.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Gettin' up early to play dice with God.
Go back to sleep and dream about Doc Johnson.
Define "balls."
Grippa got the right idea.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Alpinism.
At minimum
Technical (class 5 or higher) climbs of peaks where snow or ice is a factor during the climb, approach or descent. Line is climbed once top to bottom from the base. (gray areas exist here) (compare contrast capsule, and expedition style)
Support personnel beyond basecamp not allowed, cacheing on route not allowed.
Most Seirra peaks in summer don't quite apply (Hulk, Whitney etc).. perhaps as very lightweight intro alpine climbs.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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I have my own definition but i'm interested in what others think. The definitions for rock climber, boulderer, gym climber, ice climber and sport climber are obvious. I don't think that is the case for "alpinist".....what's your take?
Alpinism: climbing that's too cold and starts way too early in the day.
Curt
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Dingus says it is clipping more than 40 bolts on one route.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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And the colder it gets up there the more Doc just shrivels.
Don't gimme no Freudian gar-BAGE aboot spires, aiguilles, towers, and giant ice fallus, just gimme the scared-too-my-toes, snot-dripping-down-my-nose, gotta change my underclothes, look at how the sun just rose...
Define "soul."
Hulk ain't a cling-on on Anna's butt cracks, no offense to the travel-impaired, of which I am a voluntary member, having no particular desire to "go high."
Getting vertical is quite a job, nowdays.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Go up!
Till there ain't no more
up.
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MisterE
climber
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I had something to say, but I got all hot and bothered by The Larry.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Drink up! Till the ice is gone!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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when I think of Alpinism I think of long lines on mountains done as a self-contained team...
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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You might be an alpinist if this is a familiar scenario.
(ripped off from Gregory Couch on ST)
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Suffering with a good view sometimes.
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speelyei
Trad climber
Mohave County Arizona
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Cold fingers, stinging toes.
Smell of cold sweat, not unpleasant...
at first.
Sound of cracking, clattering, shattering.
I am alien here.
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Johnny K.
climber
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Alpinism is when half your pockets are filled with dead mylar balloons you collected on the way down from the summit...
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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The definitions for rock climber, boulderer, gym climber, ice climber and sport climber are obvious. IE much less fantastic than you, the "alpinist" -- Oh brother!
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Dingus, always with the parasols...
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Lanthade
climber
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Alpinism is when you drink more while preparing than you do while recovering.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Well, obviously, it means climbing in an alpine environment.
With the constraints and objective hazards of that environment.
North Face of the Eiger perhaps is the epitome of this.
Lessee, umm, huge faces, loose rock, snow, bad weather, falling rocks, cold, wet....mostly an unpredictable mix of all of these, requiring the "alpinist" to be very versatile and hardy, able to transition effortlessly from hard free to aid to thin slab to post-holing--and come out smiling.
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Edge
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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One foot on rock, one foot on snow, and one foot in the grave.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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I always thought of it as any kind of technical terrain up in the ice and snow country.
A mountain peak, with roped climbing requiring tools=Alpinism
Is hiking an easy snow covered peak alpinism also, or is that just peak bagging?
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clinker
Trad climber
California
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Ice-screwed.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Bishop/Flagstaff
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Alpinism=a love of suffering. A love so strong, survivors always return.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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As a "sworn-off" alpinista------ has been: I offer up this 1971 Ascent Magazine cover shot by Chouinard.
When I was "into" alpinism, I always thought this photo was "so----cool."
When I finally encountered a similar situation where I had spindrift not only coming over me, but piling up and forcing me out from an ice-bulge, during a early 1980's January climb of the North Face of Mt. Colchuck in the Cascades, I actually had the momemtary thought that I had reached that point of alpinism coolness.
I got over it.
The Chouinard photo was a Scottish waterfall climbing shot of Chouinard's buddy Doug Tomkins, and a winter ascent of the North Face of Colchuck is "a walk in the park" as compared to current alpine achievements.
That "Alpinista schist" is dangerous!
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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It's more like exploring than actually climbing. All that heavy gear and layers, they can't climb hard with that sh#t on. So it's like a Halloween party, where guys go to dress up in scary costumes and pretend to be something.
If you can't do it in a spaghetti strap top and yoga pants it ain't climbing.
good luck getting her into your single wall tent dude
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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"The alpinist knows he must eventually find the truth if he has the courage to continue."
Albert Einstein.
Websters:
mountain climbing in the Alps or other high mountains
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WBraun
climber
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Alpinism
Where no sane man ever goes ......
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 10, 2013 - 12:01am PT
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Jim, you turning into another trouble maker?
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Dec 10, 2013 - 12:02am PT
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Bottom to top with what you can carry on your back.
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skywalker
climber
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Dec 10, 2013 - 12:09am PT
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I read about the Rumdoodle. I think its like that.
S....
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Dec 10, 2013 - 12:42am PT
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Remote
that would've prevented alpinism in the alps. remote from paris or london or berlin. but not from geneva and certainly not from a jillion other small-medium sized places in central europe.
but it's on point because it helps to highlight the difference between europe and north america when it comes to mountain climbing. the alps were smack dab in the center of europe-- brueghel and goethe had to cross them just to get to italy. folks had been crossing even dicier high passes since at least the bronze age.
whereas the US doesn't have a single cultural capitol anywhere near a mountain range. the villages closest to major peaks were native villages and either depopulated by disease and war or by post-treaty events before "mountaineering" became a recognizable activity.
in the us, alpinism has come to refer to stuff that's comparatively hard to get to.
and the postwar distinction between aline style and expedition style doesn't have the edge it had when that us team was up on latok.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Dec 10, 2013 - 12:53am PT
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alpinism is a mindset about style of ascending.
mountaineering is the mechanics of alpinism.
Alpinist is the name of a magazine about alpinism.
BAM!
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crøtch
climber
Whale's Vagina
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Dec 10, 2013 - 01:05am PT
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Climbing cold rock with an axe strapped to my back and clouds building; comfort and security getting farther away by the moment.
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MisterE
climber
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Dec 10, 2013 - 01:24am PT
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Dammit! Wish I lurked so I could respond.
Nobody else to blame here - I got nothin'.
Carry on.
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Lasti
Trad climber
Budapest
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Dec 10, 2013 - 01:39am PT
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One am breakfast.
Oatmeal and salami again?
Just get out of your sleeping bag already.
Singles of everything will be fine, let's go light.
Whoah, that's a big face.
Sure looks nice with a bit of snow.
Feeling a bit queazy, intimidated by the face lingering above.
Talus and scree climbing for hours.
Postholing for hours.
Still the face lingers.
Take a dump. Maybe two. Damn stress. Pass TP to partner, five feet away. He used it all. Go for the snow.
Is it getting lighter? We're late... No, no, conditions are good. Yeah but... No, nothing.
Rock paper scissors. So happy to belay that crumbling wet corner of a start.
Damn it's gonna be cold.
It'll be OK in boots, it's too cold.
Should have brought double #3s.
Can barely remove shoulder slings because of jacket.
Can't remove jacket because of slings.
Should have put rock shoes on.
Pro? Why, how far out am I? 40 feet? OK, another 20 and there's some pro...
Rock's rotten, I'll just go for it.
It's too damn hot.
Don't fall, the belay is a bit sketch.
Hurry up, it's cold.
Look at the clouds. Very bleak.
Is that thunder?
Rockfall.
Whadya think?
UP.
OK.
A bit of sunshine on the back of your neck. An ebb in the hounding wind. A glimpse of the ridge through the clouds. A good belay stance. A great bivy ledge. Better remember that. But not for today! The rest of the route is 5.easy. Conditions are better on the top half. Partner knows everything from a glance. Smiles. Sitting on the summit. Showing off booty and scars. Ridgelines everywhere. New possibilities. An easy descent. Laying in the sun at basecamp.
Should have brought more whisky.
Repeat.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 10, 2013 - 01:49am PT
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Hermann.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
I got lost on the Piz Badile, for golly sakes!
Wait till Marlow wakes up.
He'll go for it.
Loved your 'repeat' at the end of the climb, Sti!
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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Dec 10, 2013 - 01:50am PT
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The Call Of K2 Lou
climber
Denial State U
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Dec 10, 2013 - 02:18am PT
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The "textbook" definition of alpinism seems to be mountain climbing in a self-sufficient style, as opposed to siege tactics.
I like to think of it the way Mark Twain feels about golf: "A good walk spoiled."
I love third and fourth class scrambling, sleeping out in the open, and hard liquor (currently "sipping" a little Ardbeg). I must be an alpinist, no?
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nah000
climber
canuckistan
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Dec 10, 2013 - 03:02am PT
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alpinism essences [essenci?]:
1. mountain summiting based objectives
2. self/ropemate-reliant
3. existence of objective and/or commitment based hazards
4. an element of technical difficulty
5. an element of endurance based difficulty
6. no yo-yoing for supplies
7. minimal to no use of bolted protection
get rid of any one of those seven and it ceases to be alpinism in my book.
without 2, 4 and/or 6 it becomes the dreaded "mountaineering".
otoh subtract 3 as well as possibly 1, 5 or 7 and it becomes the ever appealing "cragging".
ironic how a pursuit that on the surface seems so self-explanatory and "anarchic" ends up having a lot of unwritten rules.
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose and south lake tahoe, ca
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Dec 10, 2013 - 04:49am PT
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suffering is almost exclusively involved.....btw just bought an expedition north face tent....
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steveA
Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
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Dec 10, 2013 - 07:13am PT
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This will do:
Stolen from SuperTopo-Credit Alex Lowe--Charlie Fowler on the Diamond, just before his long
fall. A picture says a thousand words.
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Michael Fascinan
climber
Chamonix, france
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Dec 10, 2013 - 08:57am PT
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The great Russian alpinist Pavel Shabalin
"Alpinism was exceptional and sacred because it was closed to the masses.
And now it finds itself in the same historical situation as is love.
When love was poetry, it was exceptional and sacred. When mass media put love
in TV and magazines, it became pornography.”
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Dec 10, 2013 - 09:49am PT
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Jim Donini, John Bragg, and Jay Wilson on Torre Egger. . .
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Dec 10, 2013 - 10:02am PT
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If the conquest of a great peak brings moments of exultation and bliss, which in the monotonous, materialistic existence of modern times nothing else can approach, it also presents great dangers. It is not the goal of "grand alpinisme" to face peril, but it is one of the tests one must undergo to deserve the joy of rising for an instant above the state of crawling grubs
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 10, 2013 - 10:08am PT
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Bruce Kay--he's really O. Reginald Kay, the noted humorist and part-time Temp at Wiki, where he's known as Okay because he's always right on. He is a true original, which is strange, considering his name and all. Notice his text lacks the standard appeal for additional verification. Must be a know-it-all like I.
And as to text, this here volume of the supertopo series on Topics that Smack of Climbing is one which seriously needs MORE PICTURES!
The Lives of the Alpinists is brought to you by Kitty Biscuits, the only sack of shtuff you need on the upward trail.
We now rejoin STorming Norming on the "trail"--as it was known back in the Golden Age of Sierra Exploration--in to the Sierra Nevada fastness for the umpteenth time. Not so big a deal, considering he lives right damn there! He is stumping along, thinking to himself (obviously--who else would he be thinking to?):
"Bo-doh-di-oh-doh, gonna give it a goh, poke me in my eye Moe, gotta bushwhack a little mo', so what...pork butt. I can wait till three, but I gotta pee...like, right now, right now, MF! Good thing no ladies are present. If I number those canyons as 'recesses,' will anyone get my pun on being a teacher? Why on earth do they not call them the European Himalayas if they can call THEM the Himalayan Alps??? Why are they called 'fastnesses' when time moves so slowly up here???"
Yes, it's no wonder he "wandered alone," this rebel lad, for though he was panther quick and weather wise, this rebel, only the truly weird and crazy (many of whom were from Berkeley--nothing strange about that, really) would go out climbing with him. Well, they just couldn't keep up, is what it was, for reals but hardly a little-known fact, of which there are few known of this giant who predated Kelty Packs, Himalayan Packs, and even Jim Donini! Like them, he's legend.
We are all climbing alone with the rebel...Fade to cat food commercial.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Dec 10, 2013 - 10:18am PT
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Alpinism's not a sport, it's a way of life, it's no hobby.
It's a way of looking at the mountain and saying
"Hey bud, let's party!"
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Dec 10, 2013 - 10:37am PT
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Wow...great thread, Jim!
To me...its climbing something of a technical nature in the alpine environment.
You wouldn't use crampons on Mont Aiguille...(well, maybe on a shady route in winter (having done the south face in off season, chilly, but doable in rock shoes). Ha ha...the "birthplace" of alpinism?
Cheers!
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thirsty
climber
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Dec 10, 2013 - 10:54am PT
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I think you have to break it down into routes that require general mountaineering skills and technical alpinism. Most technical alpinism requires good general mountaineering skills to get to and from the technical alpine sections fast enough to be safe. Some summits only require general mountaineering skills. WHen you are doing routes that require technical alpine skills like climbing mixed ice and rock in the dark, in serious cold and / or at altitude you do pay attention to and try to work towards greater difficulty. All general mountaineering and technical alpinism involves exposure to a greater range of objective hazards than ice or rock cragging, both of which can be multi-pitch and serious.
From my persepctive, technical alpine routes that require gereneral mountaineering skills like the abiity to move very fast on moderate angle ice and the ability to deal with glacier crossings for the approach to the hard climbing are where all the experience and skill sets come together. My best memories for sure.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Dec 10, 2013 - 11:01am PT
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alpinism is climbing with a piss bottle that also functions as a water bottle and is always at risk of freezing up
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kaholatingtong
Trad climber
Nevada City
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Dec 10, 2013 - 11:05am PT
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the top of the climbing pyramid?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 10, 2013 - 11:13am PT
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Isn't this like the Pope asking people to define Catholicism for him?
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Dec 10, 2013 - 11:13am PT
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Alpinism is climbing in plastic boots.....that also serve as pee bottles.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Dec 10, 2013 - 11:18am PT
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"Alpinism was exceptional and sacred because it was closed to the masses.
And now it finds itself in the same historical situation as is love.
When love was poetry, it was exceptional and sacred. When mass media put love
in TV and magazines, it became pornography.”
WOW cool quote.
Alpinism to me is doing a committing climb of a peak (or a face/point) that involves a lot of different skills (ice climbing, rock climbing, aid climbing sometimes), in conditions that are not friendly and could change fast. For example, climbing a 6,000M+ peak by a route that has water ice 3-4, M5 climbing (5.9-5.10a in crampons and boots), and spending 2-3 days on that 7,000 ft face. With accent on routes that are rarely done, not crowded, and first ascents.
Like Burchy said, majority of what I did till now I would not define as true alpinism. More like getting the needed experience. It is hard to become an alpinist in 3.5 years of mountaineering/climbing. I think that's why majority of alpinists in their prime are in mid 30s to late 40s.
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WyoRockMan
climber
Flank of the Big Horns
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Dec 10, 2013 - 11:19am PT
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its climbing something of a technical nature in the alpine environment.
This reminds me of the Wolf in Pulp Fiction, “Just because you are a character, doesn’t mean you have character.”
From a general perspective I agree with Brian’s definition, but I think it sort of falls short when viewed from a climber’s perspective. As an example, running a lap on the Grand via the Exum ridge, while technically in the alpine, long approach, mountain weather, technical climbing etc. it doesn’t feel like alpinism. However, looking down the Black Ice Couloir, I imagine that would qualify.
So I would add the following to the definition: Alpinism is climbing something of a technical nature in the alpine environment requiring rock, ice, and snow skills to reach a summit.
Where is Tarbuster, to keep score and make sure the definition is bulletproof?
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pb
Sport climber
Sonora Ca
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Dec 10, 2013 - 11:19am PT
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its not in the ism but the ist as in artist
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Dec 10, 2013 - 11:34am PT
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I don't think alpinism "has" to be a mix of disciplines to qualify as alpinism per se, but, maybe just the risk of it.
As in, the bear has to have the opportunity to eat you.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Bishop/Flagstaff
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Dec 10, 2013 - 11:48am PT
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Jim Donini, John Bragg, and Jay Wilson on Torre Egger. . .
Jim Donini, Jeff Lowe, George Lowe, and Michael Kennedy-N Ridge, Latok 1
Mark Twight, Steve House, and Scott Backes- Czech Direct, Denali
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 10, 2013 - 11:52am PT
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The deriving of sexual gratification, or the tendency to derive sexual gratification, from being physically or emotionally abused, is one of the things that some climbers call alpinism.
The deriving of pleasure, or the tendency to derive pleasure, from being humiliated or mistreated, either by another or by oneself, certainly is part of the make-up of a climbing personality.
A willingness or tendency to subject oneself to unpleasant or trying experiences--well, that happens right here, to alpinist, hedonist, or masochist alike.
"Why are there never any ladies out here, anyhow? Conjugate that, Steinbeck!"--more alpine muttering by Mr. Clyde
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 10, 2013 - 11:57am PT
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T hee!
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Dec 10, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
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The deriving of sexual gratification, or the tendency to derive sexual gratification, from being physically or emotionally abused, is one of the things that some climbers call alpinism.
The deriving of pleasure, or the tendency to derive pleasure, from being humiliated or mistreated, either by another or by oneself, certainly is part of the make-up of a climbing personality.
A willingness or tendency to subject oneself to unpleasant or trying experiences--well, that happens right here, to alpinist, hedonist, or masochist alike.
I don't know man, for me it's more about the power of will and art rather than the power of masochism or unpleasantness. These latter things just happen sometimes and we tolerate them for the greater good.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Dec 10, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
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"It doesn't have to be fun to be fun."
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2013 - 12:58pm PT
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Wow....people care! Great answers from the humorous to the profane. I posed the question because of some perceived acrimony between the sport and trad camps.
I believe alpinisim is the culmination of ALL types of climbing with the additional aspects of exploration and the intense desire to be in that greatest expression of the world's topography....mountains.
Alpinisim to me, as has been stated, is technical climbing in the mountains as opposed to the snow step kicking ascents of big non-technical peaks.
To be an alpinist you need to develop all of the skills......rock, ice, route finding, planning, hazard assessment, winter camping etc.
Sport climbing and even gym climbing and bouldering contribute to the skill set needed for serious alpinisim. The different types of climbing are not discrete but are on a continuum although many choose to concentrate on one or two types.
So rather than divide up into camps and snipe at each other be aware that we all shelter under the same big tent.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 10, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
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Real alpinists don't use tents...
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TwistedCrank
climber
Bungwater Hollow, Ida-ho
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Dec 10, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
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It's like pornography.
You can't define alpinisim, but you'll know it when you see it.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Dec 10, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
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Alpinism- setting up fixed lines and stocked camps on the mountain which can be accessed at one's leisure
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
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That's expedition style climbing, long out of vogue but still practised by some.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Dec 10, 2013 - 01:10pm PT
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I know. I was being facetious. I just like the idea of leisure being involved.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
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Lot's of leisure.....festering for days of bad weather in a tent for example.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Dec 10, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
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So in reality, Alpine style climbing has more leisure days than actual climbing days....sign me up!
Of course, I will need a full gamut of technology to both entertain myself and keep the Facebook/twitter/Instagram/sponsor world fully updated regarding my awesomeness.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Dec 10, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
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So rather than divide up into camps and snipe at each other be aware that we all shelter under the same big tent.
Oh, hell no! I am not sharing my tent with a sport climber! (just kidding)
I also think that bouldering in the gym, big walls in Yosemite, dayhiking a moderately difficult 13-14er, climbing a longish route on the Hulk, short ice routes in Ouray, etc is a way to train for big alpine faces. Best way is probably getting on cl 4-5 alpine routes in Sierra in winter. Or finding some chossy big face in Sierra that would probably be doable and climbing it in Winter with snow everywhere.
E ridge of Carl Heller for example, is only class 4 in summer, but in winter was a great challenge when I was a beginner. Great training for alpinism. I heard East Ridge of Russell (class 3) when covered in snow is a great winter challenge.
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Mt-Carl-Heller-Winter-ascent-of-East-Arete/t10996n.html
Of course, I will need a full gamut of technology to both entertain myself and keep the Facebook/twitter/Instagram/sponsor world fully updated regarding my awesomeness.
LOL Alpinism IS NOT gonna get you any pussy or fan-boys! I think the reason it is so awesome is because it is so personal, and no one understands what you been through unless you were there. It is sort of like an art and a way to self-express while exploring and pushing your limits. Without cameras or spotlights, unless you are Ueli Steck, Steve House or David Lama (than you can look like a superman to others). But most people think it is a snow hike like Shasta, and there are fixed ropes that you ascent. lol
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Dec 10, 2013 - 01:39pm PT
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Alpinism=any route that may be skied some day.
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bergbryce
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Dec 10, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
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lurk = reads but does not post
alpinism = fast, light, you'd better have your $hit in gear because it could get real serious real fast up there. Requires skill on rock, ice and snow, a high level of fitness as well as strong understanding of the high mountain environment. The finest form of climbing in my humble opinion. The finest pitch of whatever on rock simply does not compare to the feeling of having been on the move for 20 hours and completing the objective.
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Dec 10, 2013 - 01:51pm PT
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Hrm...you guys make it seem like alpinists require very....specific porn...
!!!
HAHAHA
Crazy people!!
Cheers
LS
ps - awesome pics, yum.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
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Mike.....routes that may be skied some day = mountaineering.
Guess the porn part is what keeps people coming back.
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richross
Trad climber
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Dec 10, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
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Sean Connery drove a sunbeam alpine in the first Bond movie. Does that make him an alpinist?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2013 - 02:26pm PT
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No.....but the word is he was allpenis.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Dec 10, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
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I tried climbing The Line at Lover's leap in big mountain boots with a heavy pack with a little ice and snow. Complete and utter fail.
I had done it many times in sticky rubber climbing shoes and nice weather, and thought it was casual. Pretty different animals.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Dec 10, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
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I think it means mountain climbing.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Dec 10, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
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But most people think it is a snow hike like Shasta, and there are fixed ropes that you ascent. lol
"How do you guys get the rope up there?" "or do you guys like.... free climb"
Also, you are an Alpinist if you like getting up reallllly early and enjoy long periods of time without sleep while freezing/suffering, are obsessed with the weight of all of your gear, have a bunch of dead friends and/or have almost bit it a number of times ( luck was on your side that day etc)
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Dec 10, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
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routes that may be skied some day = mountaineering.
Donini nailed that one down :)
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 10, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
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Alpinism: climbing that's too cold and starts way too early in the day.
Curt
Good one, Curt.
O.K. I'm not a lurker, but to me, Donini's concept hits the target. All of the various styles seem to be subsets of terrain, technique, commitment and equipment (Somewhat akin to Lito Tejada-Flores's "Games Climbers Play"). Alpinism involves the union (as opposed to the intersection) of all of those subsets. Instead of asking "How much ice is there?" or "Is the rock good?" or "How far do I have to hike in?" etc., you reply "Let's do it!" (To quote Gary Gilmore's last words).
John
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William Finley
Social climber
Anchorage
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Dec 10, 2013 - 03:27pm PT
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routes that may be skied some day = mountaineering. Like the Frendo spur and the Black Ice couloir?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Dec 10, 2013 - 03:28pm PT
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Donini...seems like your spell check malfunctioned..?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 10, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
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Dingus McGee has put up some of the best Sport-Alpine routes in Wyoming... well bolted, equipped belays and potentially fatal objective hazards! even via ferrata to get to the base!!
A big tent?! sounds like siege tactics to me... how about a ginormous bivy bag?!!
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Dec 10, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
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Steve A love that photo of fowler. That is definitely alpine.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Dec 10, 2013 - 04:28pm PT
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I've never tried big mountain boots on edgy slab stuff. But they sure suck on slippery thin cracks.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Dec 10, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
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I guess some days it's alpinism some days it's skiing and on those days it's just mountaineering.
Conditions change.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 10, 2013 - 05:05pm PT
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A big tent?! sounds like siege tactics to me...
That's the Expedition Game (in contrast to Alpine Style).
I still remember that when I first started climbing, the climbing hardware company in Ventura called itself Chouinard Equipment for Alpinists.
John
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Dec 10, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
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Climbers who lurk here, please...define alpinisim.
Activities that take place in an Alpine environment.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Dec 10, 2013 - 08:33pm PT
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climbing in any temps below 75 degrees.
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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Dec 10, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
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It's what I climbed as a boy in the hills of PA and W.VA, and then the Whites in N.H.
Then as I grew up I was fortunate enough to climb bigger mountains in places like the Alps and Alaska.
Alpinisim to me is going with little to no support and gettin 'er done! Total Adventure Climbing at its Finest!
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Griff
Social climber
A decent motel not too far from the action.
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Dec 10, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
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Alpinism=WWMD
What would Mugs do?
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Dec 10, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
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Good question Jim,
When does mountaineering become alpinism?
Is alpinism the ascent of an "Alpish" formation?
Something steep, angular and compelling that requires some navigation of glaciated terrain, although you might not have to actually be on the glacier.
An ice axe has to be involved, possibly crampons.
Rock would have to be at least stiff 4th class with a dash of fifth where an unroped fall would be a long spectacular plummet to certain death.
Steeper rock could be augmented by or substituted with longer stretches of ice climbing over 50 degrees.
Tricky route finding, some rockfall danger.
Possibly a summit where when you get there you can't relax because it's definitely not over?
Local examples;
Slesse, Chehalis, The Cascades fer sure, Tantalus Range, Joffre, Waddington Range, much of the Coast Range?
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Dec 10, 2013 - 11:34pm PT
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I like this definition and prefer to leave the suffering to other people. :-)
"climbing for the purpose of enjoying climbing itself as a sport or recreation"
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Scole
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
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Dec 10, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
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An alpinist is someone who has embraced every aspect of mountain travel, and is drawn to mountains by their beauty, not their grade. Lionel Terray described the alpine experience succinctly when he said " A mountain is more than the sum of it's difficult passages".
A large part of alpinism is what leads up to the actual climb. Often this involves long periods of preparation, sometimes studying questionably acquired photocopies of old top maps in dingy, smoke filled, bars. Figuring out how to get you and your gear to the base of a mountain you have never seen, and which happens to be half way around the world with no money, is another aspect of alpinism which is rarely discussed.
Above all "The climber must be well victulated" (Doug Scott). An unprepared alpinist might spend months sitting in a leaky tent: It's nice to have some party favors.
The biggest question for any alpinist, is always "how can I pull this one off". Making it home alive is an important aspect of alpinism. How to successfully reach the base, actually climb the peak,make it down in one piece,and to be able to talk about it later has always been the greatest challenge in alpinism, both today, and in the past
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2013 - 09:37am PT
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Alpinisim is best done sparingly lest you desire an abbreviated lifespan. Looks like a good weather window in Sedona.......ah, warm sandstone and a touch of basalt!
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Dec 11, 2013 - 10:07am PT
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Ed,
Dingus McGee has put up some of the best Sport-Alpine routes in Wyoming
Sport routes typically occur near what kayakers favor, canyons and they often bear that word in their title. The one you refer to is in French Creek Canyon, Snowy Range. But for that area I chose a more majestic name, 4 Stories Snowy Range Sport Climbing Area. Maybe the coolest sport wall in WY but I use it only in July/August.
Climbing there in Dec/Jan would be sport-alpinism, a seldom referenced topic. By doing the whole wall in one pitch you get 240 ft. of ovehanging ice and snow with no sun all day.
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steve shea
climber
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Dec 11, 2013 - 10:55am PT
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How do you get to French Crk canyon? I like the Snowies. Only done the MB Diamond once, and fished some. All above timberline in the cowboy state. Alpinism.
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steve shea
climber
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Dec 11, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
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Seems like a lot of folks think suffering is involved in alpine climbing/alpinism. I suffered more on El Cap than any Alpine route. Or does that make El Cap an alpine route? Maybe I was doing it wrong.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 11, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
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^^^^ Hear, hear! I thought I was gonna die of thirst on El Cap. Wait, I
thought that was gonna happen on Mt Shuksan, Slesse, and Denali, too. But
El Cap was by far the worst.
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Johnny K.
climber
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Jan 10, 2014 - 09:54am PT
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.....:)
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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Jan 10, 2014 - 08:45pm PT
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A hauntingly sparse movie of 12 minutes that says it all. Terse dialogue over continuous background of tribal Pakistani music - universal and ageless.
On the summit of Muztagh Tower, not triumph, utter exhaustion, barely able to stand up.
On the way up, no food for the last two days.
"I can't tell if it's cold or not. My brain is mummified." Said while observing that his clothes are thoroughly wet after days of non-stop snowing while on the face.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRnkNwpTeSE
Need to give credit to another ST poster for locating this great video.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2316979/Muztagh-Tower-expedition-film
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jan 10, 2014 - 09:00pm PT
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TWP, thank you for posting that video, it is quite good. Real alpinism. Another good Russian climb, that has not seen much deserved hype, is the alpine style ascent of a huge face on Cho Oyu. http://russianclimb.com/chooyu2009/co_southeast_en.html
HUGE climb.
Bruce Kay did you masturbate this morning with rock fall and over hanging ice fantasies in your head?
You know you did you protesteth too much you perv!!!
LOL that made me laugh out load, thanks DMT!
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jan 10, 2014 - 09:29pm PT
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bigbird
climber
WA
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Jan 10, 2014 - 10:15pm PT
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Nick Bullock wrote a interesting article about "super alpinism" stating
"Super-Alpinism is actually disgustingly messy. No slick set-up-images to be had (hardly worth doing then?). To be involved with Super-Alpinisim the climber has to be prepared to get weak, throw up, get the shits, fight red-tape, bribe officials, spend months away from the gym and be out of contact with everyone. Relationships at home fall apart, you’re bank account haemorrhages and it takes months to regain the grade you rockclimbed at a year before. But succeed or fail, you will have gained more. You will have yak bells ringing in your memory. You will have the early morning wood-smoke hazing the view of the churning river in the valley below. You will have a memory and experience that will last for life."
All credit to NIck Bullock and his blog
http://nickbullock-climber.co.uk/writing/motivations/
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bigbird
climber
WA
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Jan 11, 2014 - 12:12am PT
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This could just be me, but has alpinism in the alps been "dumbed down". Between the cable cars, ease of access and the fact most of the trade routes are done in a day. The alps has turned into more of an "alpine playground" then anything else. The sense of mystery, that defined early alpinism has been lost, replaced by a far more "sportified" alternative.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Jan 11, 2014 - 12:21am PT
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No one ever said it was a pleasure. As Todd skinner put it, "we slept like babies, woke up every few hours crying".
And Alex Lowe, "the sufferfest"!
These are tougher men than I have ever been. If you don't like it don't do it.
You can always stay home and b-ch about on the computer.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2014 - 12:23am PT
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I agree with you bigbird. Alpinisim began in the Alps....hence the name, but with telepheriques giving easy access and helicopters poised to pluck people out of precarious situations, the Alps have, indeed, become a playground.
Athleticisim has trumped exploration and stop watches now measure accomplishments. Remarkable things are being done but in a sanitized situation without the true adventure of exploration.
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bigbird
climber
WA
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Jan 11, 2014 - 02:02am PT
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Those Russian guys I never heard of...
There is a whole tribe of very accomplished alpinist from the former USSR and eastern europe whom most will have never heard off. Some times you might hear about them on occasion, mostly because at least one team tends to win a piolet d'or every year. Last year it was the muztagh tower team, the year before that it was Denis Urubko and Gennadiy Durov for an ascent of Peak Pobeda.
When I think of hardcore alpinism I think of this....
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Jan 11, 2014 - 07:47am PT
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Alpinism = Poetry
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Jan 11, 2014 - 09:49am PT
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Spooning
Love it! Especially while being afraid to slide off that sloped, snowy ledge!
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jopay
climber
so.il
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Jan 11, 2014 - 11:10am PT
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Alpinisim was always my definition of being a climber, and from my beginning days I've wanted to develop and hone the skills necessary to be in that league. I began in trad times, and quickly got mentored in ice. I devoured Freedom of The Hills,read The White Spider and dreamed Eiger dreams. Stuck here in the mid west I even proposed an alpine adventure in my own back yard, I told a couple of climbing friends that the first night it was predicated to be zero, we would lead "Ant Killer" 5.9 at Drapers Bluff and bivy on the ledge at the top, and so the weather finally cooperated and I led the climb at 18 deg., took aiders but managed to free it, spent the night in open bags and it got to 5 above, close enough. Unfortunately life's circumstance's has not permitted me to as yet to embark on the Alpine excursions I've dreamed of.
I think the definition of an Alinist is having the skills, rope work and confidence to venture forth in the mountain realm. Tenacity, misery index and the ability to run on empty would help. Its not for everyone who ropes up but when I read the recent thread of The North Face of North Twin I still want to be one.
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steve shea
climber
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Jan 11, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
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Donini's last post could also describe Kahiltna Base and the Khumbu. Of course you could always walk in for "adventure". It is quite a hike to Lukla if you skip the plane ride. Same from Talkeetna to the air strips.
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yosemite 5.9
climber
santa cruz
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Jan 11, 2014 - 03:02pm PT
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I think of it as getting from the tree line to the summit.
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Ham and Eggs
Mountain climber
Aoraki/Mt Cook Village
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Jan 11, 2014 - 03:12pm PT
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As Marko would say, a lot of 'tasty talk' here
Mix of rock, snow and ice
Will need to use two tools in hands for some of it
Climb rock in crampons for some of it
Steep enough that abseils would be needed if you had to retreat parts of the line of ascent
More vertical than traverse
The route ought finish at the summit of an actual mountain
Most commonly typified by rock in the 5.7 to 5.10 range that requires a bit of grovelling (jamming elbows and shoulders etc.)
Snow/ice steeper than 40 degrees
Not sure if the Infinite Spur typifies it - never climbed it. Though perhaps Garribotti and House saw it more akin to mountaineering than true Alpinism - I might have mis-understood their summary. But know they see some cable car and helicoptered access still getting you to the base of solid alpine routes.
Chopper access/egress for rescues does not by default discredit an alpine route. House on Alberta? Had you used at least a little bit of fixed line on Latok or for FA's in Patagonia for descent, JD?
Nothing wrong with a stop watch when it helps to push the new game
Pain, cold, hungry, man-spooning - that stuff ain't exclusive to alpinism. You can experience that living in a city
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 11, 2014 - 03:17pm PT
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Spooning? Pffft, that's for those luxury bivies. Standup guys do standup bivies.
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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Jan 11, 2014 - 03:35pm PT
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Not sure if the Infinite Spur typifies it
If it doesn't, then I'm not sure alpinism even exists in Alaska.
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bigbird
climber
WA
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Jan 11, 2014 - 03:39pm PT
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I think the "new game" especially in the alps is more a symptom of a lack of lack of opportunity for exploration, then a evolution of alpinism.
"The man who climbs only in good weather, starting from huts and never bivouacking, appreciates the splendor of the mountains but not their mystery...." —Gaston Rebuffat, 1953
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Ham and Eggs
Mountain climber
Aoraki/Mt Cook Village
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Jan 11, 2014 - 03:39pm PT
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Much Respect to you Mark
Stirring the pot a little
I think of what Joe would say about my quip as well
On the Infinite Spur discussion, exploring where the defining lines are
You and Joe shared that route, didn't you?
Spent a big full moon on the Third Flatiron with KC when he was recovering from yet another accident
KC talked well fondly of how stellar a guy, was Joe
Guess you don't so readily get the opportunity to build those types of relationships in other pursuits
Perhaps 'being' an Alpinist is in part marked or scarred by the list of friends lost in the pursuit
Big Bird: Stopwatch is a good thing when you are paying for a film crew to document it. Ueli mocks himself a fair bit and would agree with much of your thinking
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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Jan 11, 2014 - 03:56pm PT
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Much Respect to you Mark
Stirring the pot a little
I think of what Joe would say about my quip as well. Heard he was a great guy
Thanks, yeah I get it. :) Joe would certainly have a comment or two! I wish we could hear it.
I suspect Donini's original question is somewhat loaded, by design. I think alpinism means something different to everyone and involves more than a prerequisite list. That said, all I can add is that alpinism provides a lesson and an experience that a day of cragging simply can not, and it sticks with you for ever.
It's funny, Carl Tobin and Barry Blanchard graded the Infinite's rock pitches 5.10, Rolo called them 5.6. I suspect the weight of their respective backpacks probably factored into that wide range. The Infinite is technically much harder than the Cassin Ridge, but a lot easier than the south face of Denali, north buttress of Hunter, etc. But it's the most committing thing I have been on, hands down.
Steve Shea mentioned the Kahiltna basecamp and Khumbu airplane access. I think it is important to note that apart from the Thayer route on Denali in 1954, everything that has been pioneered on the south side of the Alaska Range has done so with airplane support. It is certainly more adventurous to walk in and out, but doing so without at least an airdrop of food would be an epic amount of load carrying. Also, it would seem really strange slogging in with all that stuff and seeing 50 planes pass overhead each day, going to the same place you are going.
The most dramatic change in "alpinism" for any region I have personally witnessed is in Argentine Patagonia. The scene today is a far cry from my first trip there in 2001; I can only imagine what Jim D. would say given that even in 2001 there was a semblance of infrastructure developing. In 1976 it was like being on the moon...
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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Jan 11, 2014 - 04:02pm PT
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You and Joe shared that route, didn't you?
Indeed. And many others, though that was the last big one we completed together. I wanted to keep going bigger in AK and Patagonia, while he went to the Himalayas.
Guess you don't so readily get the opportunity to build those types of relationships in other pursuits
No, pretty hard to do.
Perhaps 'being' an Alpinist is in part marked or scarred by the list of friends lost in the pursuit
Unfortunately that seems to be the case. the mountains have an appalling death toll. It has definitely taken a lot of the fun out of it in recent years, or at least, provided much more cause for reflection.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2014 - 04:14pm PT
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Yes....and I much preferred the wildness and remoteness of 1976. However, alpinisim is still alive and well in Patagonia....once away from the clamor of Chalten you are on your own and had better be ready for self rescue.
I would definetly consider the Infinite Spur alpinisim as opposed to mountaineering. There may be disagreement on the technical difficulty but it IS technical as well as long and quite remote.
Just back in from some ice climbing in balmy temps.....the Ice Festival is in full bloom. Jeff Lowe is here and will be at the Community Center tonight for the awarding of the second annual Jeff Lowe Award, given for exemplary contribution to the Ice Park.
Leaving for Patagonia (a wild and remote part) on 1/30....chomping at the bit.
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bigbird
climber
WA
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Jan 11, 2014 - 04:21pm PT
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Big Bird: Stopwatch is a good thing when you are paying for a film crew to document it. Ueli mocks himself a fair bit and would agree with much of your thinking
Do you have exact quotes?
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Ham and Eggs
Mountain climber
Aoraki/Mt Cook Village
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Jan 11, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
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Thank you for sharing Mark. Kelly's eyes watered a little when he recounted how you had to be the one to deliver 'the news' to Chad Kellogg about his wife on Mt. Wake. A life of heavy lifting, has been yours
do you have exact quotes?
For the cost of a film crew? :)
Ueli is at zer ice fest and super approachable. Have a chat with him if you can get the chance. Or flash him an email
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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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Jan 11, 2014 - 04:43pm PT
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However, alpinisim is still alive and well in Patagonia....once away from the clamor of Chalten you are on your own and had better be ready for self rescue.
Very true, Jim. Hoping for anything other than self-rescue there is folly, and no amount of civilization in El Chalten will change that. And given the weather, an immobilizing injury high on one of the big peaks holds a high probability of being fatal. Several accidents in recent years underscore this fact.
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Ham and Eggs
Mountain climber
Aoraki/Mt Cook Village
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Jan 11, 2014 - 05:14pm PT
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However, alpinisim is still alive and well in Patagonia
Rolo's "Patagonia Vertical" is a beautiful piece
Though that so many renowned Alpinists have left so many old fixed ropes on 'their' routes is disappointing to read
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bigbird
climber
WA
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Jan 11, 2014 - 06:49pm PT
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Though that so many renowned Alpinists have left so many old fixed ropes on 'their' routes is disappointing to read
A modern example of this would be "Royal Flush" on Fitzroy... The first ascent team blatantly bolted next to perfectly protectable cracks... They "freed" most the route, but placed 120 bolts to do it..
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bigbird
climber
WA
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Jan 12, 2014 - 03:25am PT
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Steve Shea mentioned the Kahiltna basecamp and Khumbu airplane access. I think it is important to note that apart from the Thayer route on Denali in 1954, everything that has been pioneered on the south side of the Alaska Range has done so with airplane support.
It is possible to do a technically demanding route on Denali without the use of air support.
On the north side of Denali at least one route was pioneered in such a manner The obscure "Butte Direct" (Alaska Grade 5, 5.10, A2) put up in 1997 by Jim Wilson and Jim Blow, is the most recent example.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 12, 2014 - 10:13am PT
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Having airplane access doesn't mean that a route is not alpinisim anymore than having car access to within ten minutes of the base of El Capitan means those routes are not big wall.
The route itself defines what it is.
In the case of Chamonix, the ready access and, more importantly, the nearly instant rescue by helicopter have taken some of the seriousness away from the climbs. "Alpine Playground" is probably an apt descriptive term for Chamonix. The climbs themselves, however, require the full aresenal of skills needed for alpine climbing.
The remoteness and seriousness factor has diminished in many areas with helicopter and plane rescues more commonplace than before, but, anyone, who ventures onto ANY alpine climb ANYWHERE thinking that rescue is assured does so at their own peril.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jan 12, 2014 - 10:42am PT
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The first book about Norwegian climbing (1904): Slingsby's "Norway - the Northern Playground"...
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Byran
climber
San Jose, CA
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Jan 12, 2014 - 02:11pm PT
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Well I've learned something new today.
I've always assumed that the root word in alpine is 'pine' and that the word simply means 'above timberline' or the altitude at which there are no more pine trees. At a closer look this doesn't make sense because the prefix al- just means 'all', as in 'almighty' or 'altogether', which would give alpine a meaning quite opposite of 'above timberline'.
As it turns out (and perhaps most of you already knew this) the root word is 'alp' as in the French/Swiss Alps. And that mountain range in turn draws its name from the Latin 'albus' meaning 'white' (this root is still apparent in the modern english word 'albino'). The suffix -ine means 'of or relating to', so alpine is 'of or relating to the Alps'.
So an alpinist then, at least with regards to etymology, is one who climbs, skis, hikes, or otherwise recreates in Alps. Or its meaning could be further extended to include any mountain range which is sufficiently snowy to be considered 'white'.
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Guck
Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Jan 12, 2014 - 02:29pm PT
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An alpinist is mostly a person who knows and respects the mountains. An alpinist will ask mercy from the mountain before starting the climb. An alpinist appreciates the flowers on the "green" as well as the icicles on the overhangs and the plumes on the ridge. He is inspired to challenge himself to the limit. He is in awe and fear of what a mountain can give. To survive, an alpinist must not only be a technical climber but also be humble (...and lucky); he knows when to turn back, when the mountain has decided the time is not right. An alpinist does not have to brag about his experiences, the passion is always in their eyes.
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bigbird
climber
WA
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Jan 12, 2014 - 03:02pm PT
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donini-
I was more alluding to the point that it is possible to climb in the alaska range without the use of air support. It just depends on ones "tolerance for adversity" and the sheer amount of time you have available to climb. Indeed the route defines what is alpinism and what is not an approach or perceived sense of danger.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Jan 12, 2014 - 05:08pm PT
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I learned from John Clarke that it is an alpine start if "you are in the alpine, and you're starting".
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