Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
James
Gym climber
City by the Bay
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2003 - 10:11pm PT
|
1.Yes, we are as#@&%es
2.No, we don't care what all you supertopos weenies think
3.The "bolt police" are simply those who decide to take action
4.It goes unspoken that any chopped holes should be filled
5.No bolts should exist anywhere in proximity to a crack which accepts gear
6.The very fact that you all have so much time to waste in front of your computer screen tells us that you have not spent one tenth of a percent as much time in the park as ourselves. Our relocation to a metropolitan area is simply because we have a combined 2 dollars in the bank, after months of tireless dirtbagging.
I could go on and on about our superiority, but, in the long run, why bother?
P.S.- For Sale: many rusty quarter inch hangers (historical background can be provided!)
P.S.S.- Of course it's on the forum, do you think that it was posted for your benefit? We just wanted to see what lame comments you losers would come up with....
Love and wet kisses,
James and Max
|
|
BCD
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
Ah yes, Jim and Max send their love!
What's the matter, fun boys? Did those bolts get your panties in a bundle? Are you looking for a way to prove your "manliness"?
You mock people for "wasting time in front of their computers". Yes, some people waste time on the internet. Others waste time by chopping bolts. While other people MIND THEIR OWN GOD-DAMN BUSINESS!!!!
Why do soooooo many city-folk feel like they need to "prove themselves"? Especially when they are on vacation? Why do these simple-minded morons need to "leave their mark" in this world?
Why can't they just visit Yosemite, enjoy the views, climb a few routes, and then simply leave? Is that so difficult? In the future, PLEASE mind your own business. Seriously. People like you are the scum of the earth.
Next time you (or your life partner) are feeling insecure, seek professional help. Don't involve us.
|
|
Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
|
|
BCD...James was local. Don't know about Max. If you are going to flip out about us city folks, don't have it be over these two.
James and Max...I'm curious to know if you'd ever climbed OZ before you went up their with your hammers and pickle forks? Did you climb it knowing nothing of these bolts, make the choice for yourself that they were offensive, and go back and remove them? Or, did you hear Way or another self-proclaimed 'conscience of the Meadows' complain about them, so you went up there prepared to chop them on-sight? Did you talk to Bard or were you uninterested in knowing why he placed them or why he had specifically asked that they not be removed?
|
|
Binks
Social climber
i am of the universe and you know what it's worth.
|
|
james craves attention, the classic symptom of lack of self-esteem.
|
|
Kevin
Social climber
Oak-town
|
|
right on with the bolt chopping!
if any lame ass wank gumby had put up oz (or anyone w/o less credibility than bard) had placed those bolts, they would have have been beat within an inch of their lives on the same day and the bolts would have been chopped
why are we beholden to the heroes of yesterday?
|
|
Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
|
|
"why are we beholden to the heroes of yesterday?"
Because they had the vision and took the time to establish the fine line that you would have been otherwise enjoying? Becasue they did it in a style that reflected the time in which the route was put up, and seeing reminders of that time makes us realize just how much bite our cams and sticky rubber take out of some of those old school routes? Because they are not dead and gone but probably are climbing harder than than the people who declare that their day in the sun has passed? Because they earned the respect of the people that consider them heros by committing deeds that spoke of there talent, boldness, and good judgement? Because it takes, as Ammon put it last time James played here, someone who thinks that they have "a pretty big pair" to decide that they are more justified in altering the purported hero of yesterday's route than he is in requesting that it be left as it was.
Still, I agree to some extent. A time can come when it would seem that the utility and reason for preserving an old style has passed. It seems like a slippery slope though...If you chop the bolts on OZ against FA wishes, can you justify adding bolts to run-out routes that used to be led with pitons? Should we chop bolted anchors on old routes with 90ft pitches? There was probably a reason why Bard requested that those bolts left alone. Maybe it was a lame one and his experience is irrelevant to his wishes. I'd be curious to know what it was about though.
|
|
FREEclimber
Social climber
SF
|
|
1.Yes, we are as#@&%es
DUH...
2.No, we don't care what all you supertopos weenies think
DUH...
but i think the real "weenie" has been quite apparent in many of james' previous posts.
3.The "bolt police" are simply those who decide to take action
LOL! james, you are such a man of action. i particularly enjoied the time you sprayed all about AM's faulty parenting skills and then ran for cover w/ your "weenie" tail between your legs (after he personally threatened your well being in this very forum!). that was classic, nice come back- action boy.
4.It goes unspoken that any chopped holes should be filled
it's also goes unspoklen that many observers would apparently expect less than par from someone w/ your apparent distain for anything but james.
5.No bolts should exist anywhere in proximity to a crack which accepts gear
so when are you chopping all the bolts on serenity & sons? CPoF? EBoEC? and can't we walk off of daff dome? when are you chopping those rap bolts? what about all the other similar cases? btw- what about the FA and their opinion(s)?
6.The very fact that you all have so much time to waste in front of your computer screen tells us that you have not spent one tenth of a percent as much time in the park as ourselves. Our relocation to a metropolitan area is simply because we have a combined 2 dollars in the bank, after months of tireless dirtbagging.
lots of other dirtbaggers are far more worthy of our collective respect, including dale bard. you are just on permanent light duty, action boy, and making noise is your own insecure little way of crying out for the attention you have been craving since you were a bed wetting punk in a crib (most of us got over that by the 9th grade).
I could go on and on about our superiority, but, in the long run, why bother?
go read some freud instead, dude.
P.S.- For Sale: many rusty quarter inch hangers (historical background can be provided!)
you are sooo cool!
P.S.S.- Of course it's on the forum, do you think that it was posted for your benefit? We just wanted to see what lame comments you losers would come up with....
i predict that someday there will be some really good stories about your mouth getting you into a mess you can't beg and backtrack your way out of...
Love and wet kisses,
James and Max
keep 'em for your cousins and their youngins
-Fc
|
|
Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
|
|
James, you give bolt choppers a bad name.
Yur choppin the wrong bolts!
|
|
DB
Social climber
yosemite
|
|
|
Aug 11, 2003 - 10:52am PT
|
Hi James and Max,
Be aware that next time you come up to TM you will not be welcome. Lincoln the climbing ranger has been informed of your heroic deeds. The rangers have been informed and they will be on the lookout for you as you swill in the parking lot and try to drive away to you illegal camping spot. Search and Rescue does not want you arrogant idiots around any more.
All of us local climbers will be on the look out for your black Chevy truck with Vermont license plates. BTW how long have you lived in California? If it is over 30 days the Rangers will be interested in why you still have Vermont registration.
So do us a favor and stay AWAY!
TM Local
|
|
nature
climber
some other life
|
|
|
Aug 11, 2003 - 12:53pm PT
|
I'll hold my absolute opinion on this matter until I get on the route again. But with that in mind allow me to offer my rant.
I'm not sure I like the tone of James' post. It does seem a bit abbrasive. At the same time I'm not sure they did something as horrible as everyone is making it out to be.
I'm not sure I don't like the idea of some of those bolts going away. I've done the route twice - last year most recently - and I do remember wondering "WTF are those bolts there?!?!". Allow me a guess - in '75 the great Bardini probably had a rope no longer than 45 meters and we KNOW he had not a single spring on his rack (Ray released them springy things circa 1979). My guess is those mid-way belays were due to a shorter rope. But I'd also guess that since they were going into the unknown they chose "natural" belays. We, the lame-ass second-plus accentionist, KNOW the beta - we know what we are in for. They didn't. Maybe there were just a bit "conservative" in their FA approach.
Now clue me in - did I miss something - did all the bolts get replaced as well? Is that first pitch a bit more safe? If so then good work, if not then WTF were "you" doing up there "fixing" the route?
Ok, now here's a suggestion. I think the idea of having rap stations on Drug dome for that route is a reasonable idea. Instead of ya'll going after these guys maybe take the opportunity to install safe, LOGICAL, rap stations for the route? My guess is you won't be replacing that station part of the way up the crack if you do. The walk down isn't bad with no snow but I'm sure it's misserable with it. Though at the same time if you add a rap station who will go to the top of that thing and drool over Hobbit Book? ;-)
So... though his tone in the post probably deserved a bit of a flaming I'd have to say that ya'll should hold your opinion until you get on the route and see what he's done. And before you go taking it upon yourself to make it right again let's discuss it here, no?
And if you've never been on the route how can you offer much of an opinion?
Finally, though it's not obvious - it's pronounced ounce - think drugs people - Gram traverse, Sunsine (read liquid sunshine?)[which is a scarey route =-)].
|
|
nature
climber
some other life
|
|
|
Aug 11, 2003 - 01:12pm PT
|
Thanks dingus.... I am an idiot. That'll teach me to type with no coffee. Will you make me an espresso before my next babble? No milk or sugar :-)
|
|
LMB
climber
|
|
|
Aug 11, 2003 - 02:44pm PT
|
Bolt Choppers Suck-
Your post makes me sick. It is to bad you think telling rangers about this incident is helpful or appropriate. What was done on OZ by James and Max (James may be a dick) was nothing but a good thing. James' attitude about reporting it may be offensive, but that is exactly the way he wants it to sound. I am sure he is rolling hearing all you folks get your panties in a bunch over how much of an ass he is. Your just falling into his trap. Also, Mike you should know that the anchors midway up the first pitch are not the anchors of Ice. I was very bummed to see them there the first time I climbed the route and am thankful they are gone.
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2003 - 12:55am PT
|
James may be offensive, but that midway anchor in the dihedral was on the official ASCA "to chop" list after we talked with Dale Bard last year (before we replaced a couple bolts, didn't have time to get to those or the last pitch bolts). It was not original. The anchor half way up the first pitch is for a "new" route which may be a retrobolt of a Dimitri Barton 5.11+ X route that was chopped by Bachar and friends along with a couple other rap bolted routes on the wall (the 11+ X route was ground-up, but it got included in the mass chopping). Dimitri is working on a new route way to the right, and he has a pile of my specialized 3/8" 5-piece sleeve pulling tools to go clean up the chopped bolts on various routes, he's not sure what he'll do with the apparent retrobolt (since whoever did it likely did not know there was a chopped 11+ X route over there).
James and Max, if you get a chance, please chop the three 1/4" bolts on Braille Book, Bridwell confirmed that they are not original and that they were added at least 7 years after the FA.
And please talk to active locals in Tuolumne before doing more chopping, some bolts ought to be removed, but it should be done in a respectful manner after confirming the facts with the FA team. I have chopped non-FA bolts on Regular Route on Fairview, South Crack, Great White Book, and others, but not without first talking to FA teams or people who know the story. Explain your actions and stand by them, but don't piss everyone off, because sooner or later the mass of gym-educated climbers who expect "safety" could start retrobolting everything in sight. Some spots in Europe have entirely bolted cracks, sometimes even with rocks glued in the cracks for good footholds! We have to educate people, not offend them, if we want to avoid that sort of retrobolting.
Greg
|
|
nature
climber
some other life
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2003 - 09:53am PT
|
Greg,
Thanks so much for clearing things up. Some how I knew there was way more to this story. Maybe one day you should get into politics - it was as heated in this thread as it is in the middle-east.
You wrote: 'and he has a pile of my specialized 3/8" 5-piece sleeve pulling tools to go clean up.'
Can you explain what this is/means? I'd like to see the mechanics behind such a beast and how it works (figured I'd start on the El Cap TR only project *grin*). Actually, we've got some old holes around here in AZ that need some cleaning up.
Thanks again,
Doug
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2003 - 12:35pm PT
|
Hey Doug,
pulling the sleeves on 5-pieces is pretty simple, except getting the sleeve itself out, which is where the tools come in. Basically: unscrew the bolt, remove the hanger and washer (blow out hole), screw just the bolt back in a few turns, give it one sharp tap with the hammer (unseats the cone from the sleeve), unscrew the bolt. Now, use needle nose pliers to get out the upper sleeve if it's a long one ("6-piece"), if that upper sleeve hasn't already fallen out. For the lower (main) sleeve, there's several techniques:
1) hook - make some small hook that you can fish around for the sleeve with. I made one just out of a big piece of copper wire I found on the ground somewhere, but my friend made a much better hard steel hook. That works pretty well, especially in combo with a pair of pliers to work the hooked sleeve out.
2) drive a thin steel pin or a nail in along the seam in the sleeve, which curls it in, and after a couple times the sleeve should be easy to pull with pliers.
3) special expanding tool: Mike White made some of these, a couple pieces of thin steel which are bent to hooks at the end (actually just bent horizontal, not curved around like a fish hook), then uses a retractable piece to expand them. You place in the hole, fish around until you find the gaps in the sleeve, then push the center piece in which expands the other two. From there, use pliers on the extractor to work the sleeve and extractor out. I need to take pics of them and put them on line somewhere, I'm sure I'm botching the explanation.
If the bolts are way rusty, the sleeves tend to disintegrate as you're trying to pull them, but then it's easy to fish out the fragments.
Once the sleeve is out, blow out the hole again, then screw the bolt back in with a beater hanger, and use a funkness device to yank out the cone.
Hopefully more folks will start using stainless bolts, because the above procedure is going to become all too familiar to rebolters in 20-30 years as bolts going in today need replacement due to excessive rusting. I've seen threads rusted to nearly nothing on Owens anchors less than 10 years old, and they never had rusted heads like many 5-pieces have in wetter climates...
Greg
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2003 - 04:15pm PT
|
Dingus,
the ASCA replaces old nasty bolts. We ought to figure out which ones are original. We should chop excess bolts at anchors (i.e. replace three 1/4" bolts with two 3/8" stainless). We should replace doubled 1/4" protection bolts with a single modern bolt. Pretty much everyone agrees on that. So what to do with other non-original old manky bolts?
Chris Mac disagrees with me on the "old bolts that are added or not needed with modern gear" issue. He thinks we should just leave them to avoid controversy. I think that we should remove them since they are basically trash on the wall, and they are also dangerous to climbers foolish enough to trust them. Besides, the rust from old bolts kills lichen in Tuolumne (many old bolts in black streaks can be found by looking for little vertical white lines).
I think old bolts should either be replaced or removed. If we call up Dale Bard to ask about replacing an anchor and he says it's not original, we can either replace it, ignore it, or remove it. Replacing it would be a slap in the face to the guy you just asked about the FA bolts. I don't like the middle option since it leaves potentially dangerous and ugly trash on the wall, so I choose the third and remove excess old bolts.
If bolt replacement folks are handicapped by a "any bolt that is there must be left there" rule, then bolts will accumulate on the walls. Might as well be the folks taking responsibility to replace old mank that also take the responsibility to remove bolts that shouldn't be replaced. As anyone who replaces old bolts knows, no matter what you do, some people will be pissed at you. So why leave old junk that the modern climbing community generally agrees ought to be removed, just out of fear of a reaction, especially since you'll have clueless folks spreading rumors about all the bolts you added anyway?
But we're not exactly "policing" things and removing modern bolts that someone added to a route, etc. There's a huge difference there. Besides, two out of the three members of the ASCA board of directors disagree on the issue (haven't asked Jeremy what he thinks)...and you don't have much to worry about as far as the massive infrastructure of Big Brother corporate ASCA chopping bolts left and right and policing the vertical world...
Greg
|
|
Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2003 - 04:28pm PT
|
I'm not necessarily talking about OZ but more Greg's last post. It seems to me that distinction between ASCA deciding to replace a three ancient bolt anchor w/ 2 stainless fatties or replace twin pro bolts one new one is not even remotely similar to removing an anchor or a lead bolt all together. It's not to say that I don't think that there is a time and place for removing things altogether, it just seems a bit beyond what I understood the mission of ASCA to be.
Maybe "Greg" can chop bolts that he finds offensive and "ASCA" (which is likely to be Greg acting on behalf of the ASCA) can replace originals? The distinction is subtle and the outcome with respect to the rock is the same. However, if I happen to be in favor of replacing bolts, but not chopping non-FA bolts that have nonetheless stood the test of time wrt the community and/or FA desire to see them removed, I can still send my check to the ASCA w/o thinking that I'm going to be supporting the feared bolt police state.
I really applaud the FA research that you guys do though before getting involved in a replacement where the details are fuzzy.
|
|
Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
|
|
|
Aug 13, 2003 - 02:10am PT
|
Well said, Greg.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
SF Bay Area
|
|
|
Aug 13, 2003 - 12:25pm PT
|
DMT-
from where i am typing, it seems like the ASCA puts lots of energy into the thoughtful replacement of old and unsafe fixed protection, during the course of which they are in contact w/ many FA'ists WRT many climbs in many climbing areas...
...seems like a no brainer that they would have to make a list every now and then, just to keep it all straight.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Bishop, Ca.
|
|
|
Aug 13, 2003 - 01:16pm PT
|
I'm with Greg on this one. Whether the ASCA has a "chop" list or not on paper does not really matter. Extra non FA bolts should go. Better the researched, clean and scarless removal of these bolts than some A-hole with crowbar and no research.
And as usual, I'm not sure what Mellissa was mumbling about..... probably a byproduct of my low SAT scores.
adios,
Russ
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!