Camelot..50 years later. Lone man or conspiracy?

We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard

No chance in hell Oswald acted alone..

Fatal shot obviously came from front..

the best trained snipers in the world; fbi hostage rescue teams, couldnt manage to repeat that feat of shooting when they tried

Scientific acoustical evidence establishes a high probability that two gunmen fired at President John F. Kennedy. Other scientific evidence does not preclude the possibility of two gunmen firing at the President. Scientific evidence negates some specific conspiracy allegations.

The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee was unable to identify the other gunmen or the extent of the conspiracy.

WTF did Kennedy DO?

oswald was NOT highly skilled with a rifle,
the only people who believe that are ignorant of that fact that "marksman" is the LOWEST qualification ranking allowed to remain in the service...

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2013 - 08:31am PT
I personally do not buy into any of the conspiracy theories.

I believe Oswald was not unlike the modern day whack jobs we see all too often, wanting to make a name for themselves....take our their aggressions, etc.

He was also clearly a communist sympathizer....one can only imagine what would have been found out had Ruby not acted, and Oswald went to trial.

I think Ruby was an ardent Kennedy supporter, and acted out of rage...alone. And unwittingly, Ruby's act more than anything else, sealed the case to forever be debated as a conspiracy.

oswald was NOT highly skilled with a rifle,
the only people who believe that are ignorant of that fact that "marksman" is the LOWEST qualification ranking allowed to remain in the service...

So many of you seem to have some personal investment in this issue.

Solid. So this "professional" apparently relies on ad hominen attacks to diminish the character of those he wishes to discredit, and this is the most worthy thing to point out about what he did right in his book. I guess anyone who questions that Oswald acted alone is also as kooky as a $3 bill. That alone seals the deal on my opinion of this guy personally. I would be interested in any actual example of him "picking apart" any fact based theory, with a reference to said theory to be sure he truly picked it all apart, but something tells me I wouldn't actually find that anywhere in that 1600 page book.

in the base of Kennedy's neck above the scapula,

exit through the anterior surface of the neck.

Or perhaps I can save myself the time by sending the known iformation through my B.S. filter first to see if it's worth investigating further.

I really wanted to believe in a conspiracy because the movie JFK was so entertaining, such a great story!

But, I've wasted many hours through the years keeping up with the theories... the audio recordings from the motorcycle really looking substantial for a short time... but there's just nothing to ANY of the theories once reviewed.

Was there a government cover-up? Hell yeah. They were/are so corrupt that there were hundreds of things they didn't want the public to know. But, was there a second shooter? I sure haven't read of one bit of evidence to show me that there was. As interesting as it would be, it's just not there.

Gerald Posner, who wrote the book "Case Closed" in 2003

Curt lacks that. Notice how he claims these theories were proven false without actually providing any kind of specifics. Just "they were wrong".

The conspiracy theorist has faith that life has meaning. It is a secular sort of faith and its faith object is not divine, but malignant. The meaning of life is malicious. It operates the way it does because evil people behind the scenes refuse to allow for any coincidences or random chance. No sparrow shall fall because a dozen secret agencies are always monitoring it from space.

It is a faith not in good, but in evil.

The left cannot make history come out the way that it wants to, but it can always lie about it. Its myths of the past, dreams shattered by vast right-wing conspiracies, swallowed up by the greed of the 80s and 00s, are tawdry attempts at refusing to learn the lessons of history so that it will be given the freedom to repeat its terrible mistakes.

Lee Harvey Oswald was the stepchild of the left's destructive ideas on society. The same madness that led to Guyana and the bombing of the Pentagon had its day fifty years ago in Dallas.

There is a theory that one of the bullets might have come from one of the cars behind where Secret Service was riding

Your worldview requires an unbelievable number of sequential low probability events to make it all add up consistently. On the other hand, people who think Kennedy's assassination was a conspiracy and believe our government perpetrated 911 have a nice consistent narrative that makes sense and is free of all the crazy outlandish explanations, requiring only high probability events to make it all add up.

I guess I'm the only one who sees the Kennedy/911 link as obvious.

A good example is the fact that the steel in those towers could absolutely NOT have melted in a fire of that temperature

Curt, all of that has been shot down by credible sources.

As for the Kennedy assassination, I would assume...

He pissed off all the guys behind the curtain running the real show.

He was going to take all their power away.

Thus they were forced to knock him off to keep their bullsh!t stupid agenda going.

Stupid Americans have no clue who's really running the show ......

You're joking, right?

WTC #7

Yep, and Unicorns exist, and the Ancient Aliens will arrive soon, and you fart giant green and blue bubbles that you dance around and eat and claim taste like candy. Why? Cause I say so, that's why.

Awesome. Again, do better research.

OK, let's do this. You tell me which Kennedy assassination conspiracy theory is correct--they can't all be correct. Was Kennedy killed by the CIA, FBI, Cubans, Mafia, LBJ, etc. Once you tell me which conspiracy you believe to be correct, I'll then attempt to explain why that isn't so. Fair enough?

we see youve never heard of elevation curt

Today there is nothing more to be gained from the endless speculation except the money it puts into the pockets of the people publishing their conspiracy theory books.

Though Kennedy's presidential limo, famously dubbed the "Death Car" by the Associated Press, was sleek and stylish, it was not equipped with many security features. In addition to the removal top, the Lincoln was equipped with two radio telephones, flashing red lights, four retractable steps for Secret Service agents, and a hydraulic rear seat that could be raised ten-and-a-half inches to elevate the president.

Yet another of the low probability events needed for your worldview to make sense. Keep spitting them out. There has to be more. You are full of them. It's awesome. It's literally like talking to someone who thinks we faked the moon landing.

The carcano bullet can go through 36 inches of pine, with very little deformation.

See the demonstration at 25 minutes below:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/cold-case-jfk.html

You seem to be missing the point that your Discovery Channel special only was able to produce some kind of circumstance under which a bullet could intersect a bone yet remain intact.

The path of their single bullet (followed by high speed photography) duplicated, almost exactly, the wounds suffered by the victims that day.

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Katzenbach_Memo

The Katzenbach Memo

On November 25 1963, the day of the Kennedy funeral, Assistant Attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach sent a memo to Bill Moyers of the new Johnson White House. He had begun writing it the day earlier, within hours after Oswald's death at the hands of Jack Ruby.

The second paragraph stated: "The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial."

Given that the authorities could not possibly by November 25 know these things to be true, and Katzenbach later admitted he knew very little at this stage, the memo is clearly advocating a political course irrespective of the truth of the assassination.

The motivation for this political course may be glimped in the succeeding paragraph: "Speculation about Oswald's motivation ought to be cut off, and we should have some basis for rebutting thought that this was a Communist conspiracy or (as the Iron Curtain press is saying) a right-wing conspiracy to blame it on the Communists. Unfortunately the facts on Oswald seem about too pat--too obvious (Marxist, Cuba, Russian wife, etc.). The Dallas police have put out statements on the Communist conspiracy theory, and it was they who were in charge when he was shot and thus silenced."

Katzenbach's memo advocated a public FBI report to satisfy this "objective," though he noted the possible need for "the appointment of a Presidential Commission of unimpeachable personnel to review and examine the evidence and announce its conclusions." He ended by advocating a quick public announcement to "head off speculation or Congressional hearings of the wrong sort."

To many observers, the Katzenbach memo provides the blueprint for the cover-up which followed.


The 2 page memo:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=756877

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=62268&relPageId=30

Scientists examined the Zapruder film. They found that, while most of it looks completely genuine, some of the images are impossible. They violate the laws of physics. They could not have come from Zapruder’s home movie camera. Zapruder’s film is a very good forgery. It is almost perfect. Some mistakes took almost 40 years to find. The scientists also proved that Zapruder’s film was not just changed a little bit. The whole film is a fake! A movie film is just a strip of little photos (“frames”). The fake film was made by cutting and pasting real photos and film frames together to make new frames. Because the Zapruder film is only 27 seconds long, less than 500 photos needed to be made. The forgers had almost a year to create them, before they were published. This was not difficult to do in 1963 and 1964. People had been creating high quality fake photos since the 1850s!

Simply stated “There is no detectable evidence of manipulation or image alteration on the "Zapruder in-camera- original" and all supporting evidence precludes any forgery thereto.”
The film that exists at NARA was received from Time/Life, has all the characteristics of an original film per my report. 􏰀The film medium, manufacturing markings, processing identification, camera gate image characteristics, dye structure, full scale tonal range, support type, perforations and their quality, keeping shrinkage and fluting characteristics, feel, surface profile of the dye surface. 􏰀It has NO evidence of optical effects or matte work including granularity, edge effects or fringing, contrast buildup etc.

You guys never even knew that there are several different doctored versions of the zapruder film.

None of you have ever seen the original.

The autopsy photos were doctored also.

There was a massif coverup of the original event.

Many witnesses were assassinated afterwards.

Stupid Americans believe everything thrown at them on television .....

Stupid Americans trying to think for themselves.

See the Final Report on the Collapse of World Trade Center Building 7, NIST

NCSTAR 1A, page 48, which states: “A more detailed analysis of the descent of the north face found . . . (2) a freefall descent over approximately eight stories at gravitational acceleration for approximately 2.25 s. . . . .”

This was an absolute bombshell admission by NIST, and it should have been the biggest media story of the century. Even though NIST only conceded free fall for one third of the collapse of WTC Building 7, any amount of free fall can only occur through expertly executed controlled demolition using carefully placed and perfectly timed explosives. Without saying the actual words, NIST’s announcement was essentially an announcement of controlled demolition of WTC Building 7, and therefore an announcement that there must have been some level of inside involvement with at least some of the events of 9/11.

To further clarify the descent of the north face, NIST recorded the downward displacement of a point near the center of the roofline from first movement until the north face was no longer visible in the video. Numerical analyses were conducted to calculate the velocity and acceleration of the roofline point from the time-dependent displacement data. The instant at which vertical motion of the roofline first occurred was determined by tracking the numerical value of the brightness of a pixel (a single element in the video image) at the roofline. This pixel became brighter as the roofline began to descend because the color of the pixel started to change from that of the building façade to the lighter color of the sky.

The approach taken by NIST is summarized in Section 3.6 of the final summary report, NCSTAR 1A (released Nov. 20, 2008; available at http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/PDF/NCSTAR%201A.pdf); and detailed in Section 12.5.3 of NIST NCSTAR 1-9 (available at http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/PDF/NCSTAR%201-9%20Vol%202.pdf);.

The analyses of the video (both the estimation of the instant the roofline began to descend and the calculated velocity and acceleration of a point on the roofline) revealed three distinct stages characterizing the 5.4 seconds of collapse:

Stage 1 (0 to 1.75 seconds): acceleration less than that of gravity (i.e., slower than free fall).
Stage 2 (1.75 to 4.0 seconds): gravitational acceleration (free fall)
Stage 3 (4.0 to 5.4 seconds): decreased acceleration, again less than that of gravity

This analysis showed that the 40 percent longer descent time—compared to the 3.9 second free fall time—was due primarily to Stage 1, which corresponded to the buckling of the exterior columns in the lower stories of the north face. During Stage 2, the north face descended essentially in free fall, indicating negligible support from the structure below. This is consistent with the structural analysis model which showed the exterior columns buckling and losing their capacity to support the loads from the structure above. In Stage 3, the acceleration decreased as the upper portion of the north face encountered increased resistance from the collapsed structure and the debris pile below.

Regarding JFK Assassination—Who do You Trust: Poppy Bush or Your Own Eyes?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x136109

At a memorial service for former President Gerald Ford, former President George Herbert Walker Bush asked us to dismiss "conspiracy theorists" and go with the Warren Commission Report as final word on the assassination.


George H.W. Bush’s Eulogy for Gerald R. Ford

The New York Times
Published: January 2, 2007

EXCERPT…

“After a deluded gunman assassinated President Kennedy (Bush laughed!), our nation turned to Gerald Ford and a select handful of others to make sense of that madness. And the conspiracy theorists can say what they will, but the Warren Commission report will always have the final definitive say on this tragic matter. Why? Because Jerry Ford put his name on it and Jerry Ford’s word was always good.

“A decade later, when scandal forced a vice president from office, President Nixon turned to the minority leader in the House to stabilize his administration because of Jerry Ford’s sterling reputation for integrity within the Congress. To political ally and adversary alike, Jerry Ford’s word was always good.”

CONTINUED...

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/02/washington/02cnd-ford-ghwb.html?ei=5070&en=a9cf834723455ccf&ex=1169614800&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1169442277-BB/tszNk9YVyLGn6D6jo8g

Bush Senior Early CIA Ties Revealed

By Russ Baker and Jonathan Z. Larsen
The Real News Project January 8, 2007

NEW YORK--Newly released internal CIA documents assert that former president George Herbert Walker Bush's oil company emerged from a 1950's collaboration with a covert CIA officer.

Bush has long denied allegations that he had connections to the intelligence community prior to 1976, when he became Central Intelligence Agency director under President Gerald Ford. At the time, he described his appointment as a 'real shocker.'

But the freshly uncovered memos contend that Bush maintained a close personal and business relationship for decades with a CIA staff employee who, according to those CIA documents, was instrumental in the establishment of Bush's oil venture, Zapata, in the early 1950s, and who would later accompany Bush to Vietnam as a “cleared and witting commercial asset” of the agency.

According to a CIA internal memo dated November 29, 1975, Bush's original oil company, Zapata Petroleum, began in 1953 through joint efforts with Thomas J. Devine, a CIA staffer who had resigned his agency position that same year to go into private business. The '75 memo describes Devine as an “oil wild-catting associate of Mr. Bush.” The memo is attached to an earlier memo written in 1968, which lays out how Devine resumed work for the secret agency under commercial cover beginning in 1963.

“Their joint activities culminated in the establishment of Zapata Oil,” the memo reads. In fact, early Zapata corporate filings do not seem to reflect Devine's role in the company, suggesting that it may have been covert. Yet other documents do show Thomas Devine on the board of an affiliated Bush company, Zapata Offshore, in January, 1965, more than a year after he had resumed work for the spy agency.

CONTINUED...

http://realnews.org/rn/content/zapata.html

http://smirkingchimp.com/thread/4540

common sonny, it either says THIS or it doesnt

"NCSTAR 1A, page 48, which states: “A more detailed analysis of the descent of the north face found . . . (2) a freefall descent over approximately eight stories at gravitational acceleration for approximately 2.25 s. . . . .” "


which is it?

the building was in "free fall" from 0 through 4 seconds AT LEAST!!!

"NCSTAR 1A, page 48, which states: “A more detailed analysis of the descent of the north face found . . . (2) a freefall descent over approximately eight stories at gravitational acceleration for approximately 2.25 s. . . . .” "

that disection is trying to make it sound reasonable to believe that when you step off an edge and start falling, your not in free fall, until youve reached terminal velocity...

common curt! surely you didnt fail 8th grade?!?!?!

that disection is trying to make it sound reasonable to believe that when you step off an edge and start falling, your not in free fall, until youve reached terminal velocity...

the building was in "free fall" from 0 through 4 seconds AT LEAST!!!

free fall is the condition of a physical object acted on by gravity where the only opposition is air pressure.

When you look up most 911 Truth information, the website is in almost all cases transparently hosted by whomever has put their name on the research which helps illuminate the Truth, and this person is often a respected member of society with real credentials which can be easily verified. Whats more, they provide logical science based arguments, and hide nothing about their results nor methods.

Curt, unless you can point me to where they talk about their justification, through a statistical argument, of the actual building speed during the 1.25 seconds of "free fall", and why that is the most likely explanation given the data, I'm going to call what you have presented unscientific. Anyone can claim anything if they are convincing enough and fail to include the most important facts and details...

No, that thought experiment merely points out that free fall begins with the person/object not moving downward at all, and they attain terminal velocity, not that they are just going terminal velocity instantaneously, which is what it sounds like the report is claiming the building did.

Runways are MUCH longer than the space they had to work with there, with way fewer obstructions on the approach to the runway than were present on the approach to The Pentagon, and they make runways like that for good reasons. Space costs money, and they use the minimum necessary at airports to still ensure safety. Amateur pilots typically struggle to land on runways, using all the available space, and that is what defines the parameters.

By "watching a pixel", with no supporting data. Did they do anything to ensure the camera had no vertical motion so the pixel really was a fixed point in the sky? This could skew the result either way...but we don't know, no data is given. Weird. We are just supposed to take their word for it. Solid "scientific" justification...

Don't waste your time with monolith as he's an Israel and Saudi disinfo terrorist shill.

It absolutely does. They measured the building moving relative to a pixel, which only works if the pixel is at a fixed point in the sky, which only happens if the camera doesn't move, or moves very very little.

What you are saying is if I pan my camera up the building while the building is moving down, the building will look like it was going the same speed as if I just took video of the building coming down while keeping my camera pointed straight ahead. Or if I followed the top of the building down with the camera, the top of the building would still accelerate away from the camera no matter how fast I moved it. Your crazy or stupid, or both.

Curt, also, for the record, the ad hominen attack is what is being done when people try to say folks such as myself are "conspiracy theorists" who believe in idiotic sh#t like Ancient Aliens and think the moon landing was faked. It fits the definition to the letter, and as you infer it very much discredits whoever is perpetrating the ad hominen attack.

An ad hominen attack is defined as a character attack intended to rebut facts.

Can you explain to the families of the crew and passengers of Flight 77, what happened to their loved ones ?

No, but they did not die at the Pentagon . . . you ever see any bodies being pulled from that Hollywood scene?

there are so many Kennedy conspiracy theories out there, one of them must be correct.

No, but they did not die at the Pentagon

What kind of idiot would waste a perfectly good weapon like a passenger jet?

A thoroughly documented criminal indictment of George Herbert Walker Bush, establishing beyond a reasonable doubt, his guilt as a supervisor in the conspiracy to murder John Kennedy.

Probably the same kind of idiot that would preemptively start a trillion dollar war against Iraq, a country that had nothing to do with the 911 conspiracy.

"incompetent morons"

Probably the same kind of idiot that would preemptively start a trillion dollar war against Iraq, a country that had nothing to do with the 911 conspiracy.

Dick Cheney was brilliant although evil.

BTW, since you cant win an actual argument, I will let you win your little semantic one. Your definition of an ad hominen attack is more correct than mine. Good job. If you were my student I would give you a sticker to encourage the correct use of logic. I'm so proud :)

Duct tape gaiters are so 1980's bra.

Yeah sure according to Cheney.. but in order to succeeed at your ends one should probably use good planning.

It doesn't need to alter the elapsed time, that's not the issue here.

If memory serves..Curt clearly stated his concurrence with the NIST report.

Quit your stupid butt hurt post and give us how it all went down.

As I recall it was the Nigerian yellow cake and mushroom cloud scare tactic

More Seriously.. please don't start using sources you previously claim are discredited as support for later points in your argument.

Subtract stopping distance from overall length then, and you will still see I am right. The comparable approach angles and time to go from descent to stably horizontal are no where near comparable. Like not even close. Look into it. Just look into it. Look into the host of the webpage too. Also, clearly we are talking about a commercial airliner here, not a cessna...nice try.

“He didn’t even have the satisfaction of being killed for civil rights. It’s — it had to be some silly little Communist.”

— Jacqueline Kennedy, Nov. 22, 1963

She thought it robbed his death of any meaning. But a meaning would be quickly manufactured to serve a new politics. First, however, an inconvenient fact — Oswald — had to be expunged from the story. So, just 24 months after the assassination, Arthur Schlesinger, Jr., the Kennedys’ kept historian, published a 1,000-page history of the 1,000-day presidency without mentioning the assassin.

The transformation of a murder by a marginal man into a killing by a sick culture began instantly — before Kennedy was buried. The afternoon of the assassination, Chief Justice Earl Warren ascribed Kennedy’s “martyrdom” to “the hatred and bitterness that has been injected into the life of our nation by bigots.” The next day, James Reston, the New York Times luminary, wrote in a front-page story that JFK was a victim of a “streak of violence in the American character,” especially of “the violence of the extremists on the right.”

Never mind that adjacent to Reston’s article was a Times report on Oswald’s communist convictions and associations.

Three days after the assassination, a Times editorial, “Spiral of Hate,” identified JFK’s killer as a “spirit”: The Times deplored “the shame all America must bear for the spirit of madness and hate that struck down” Kennedy. The editorialists were, presumably, immune to this spirit. The new liberalism-as-paternalism would be about correcting other people’s defects.

...

The moral of liberalism’s explanation of Kennedy’s murder is that there is a human instinct to reject the fact that large events can have small, squalid causes; there is an intellectual itch to discern large hidden meanings in events. And political opportunism is perennial.

The joke is on you. If the point you are measuring your distance from is moving, your distance is off, and thus so is your speed and your acceleration with it. Your right you could still measure the time it took the building to fall, since this does not require a point in space for reference, however all you could calculate from that would be the average speed for the whole event, not at all the acceleration at any point.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x136109

No conspiracy, huh? So why, on November 22, 1963, were the Secret Service Agents charged with protecting President Kennedy’s back ordered off the bumper of his car? Unbelievable, but true. Check out Secret Service Agent Henry J. Rybka’s body language, who’s just been ORDERED off the car.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x136109

Agents Go On Record:

JFK DID NOT ORDER SECRET SERVICE OFF DALLAS LIMOUSINE

KENNEDY NEVER ORDERED SECURITY STAND-DOWN OR BUBBLE-TOP REMOVAL

PRESIDENTIAL SECURITY MYSTERIOUSLY "STRIPPED" AND OTHERWISE
COMPROMISED FOR FATAL MOTORCADE

SECRET SERVICE IGNORING OF ADVANCE WARNING OF THREATS DOCUMENTED



“HISTORY" CORRECTED 35 YEARS LATER BY PRIMARY SOURCES

by Vincent M. Palamara

EXCERPT…

THE RYBKA TAPE -- An important discovery was made by this correspondent during review of video of the Dallas trip shot by the ABC television affiliate in that city. During the start of the fatal motorcade at Love Field, Secret Service agent Henry J. Rybka begins to jog alongside the presidential limousine. He is immediately called back by his shift leader and commander of the follow-up car detail, Emory P. Roberts.

Rybka's dismay and confusion is made manifest by his unambiguous body language: He throws up his arms several times before, during and after the follow-up car passes him. He was not being allowed to do his job -- and it was not JFK who was ordering the stand-down.

Despite the discovery by this correspondent of three reports to the contrary (two by Roberts) written on November 22, 1963, this newly discovered photographic evidence confirms that frustrated and vocal-in-his-objections Rybka did not enter the follow-up car and was left behind at the airport.

CONTINUED…

http://www.jfklancer.com/LNE/limo.html