America the "exceptional" should provide free healthcare....

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 1 - 573 of total 573 in this topic
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 14, 2013 - 08:37pm PT
Let's prove that "American Exceptionalisim" is more than just hubris. The richest country on earth....a country with 27 year old billionaires and super rich hedge fund managers and venture capitalist who produce nothing, a country with a growing and dangerous divide in the wealth of it's citizens....the least a country like our's can do is provide universal health care from the cradle to the grave.
The rich can grumble about socialisim but they'll still be able to build 20,000 square foot mansions in Aspen that they use two weeks a year.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Nov 14, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
god damn right you are.sir
Roadie

Trad climber
Bishop, Ca
Nov 14, 2013 - 09:16pm PT
Free? I'm not so sure about 'free' Jim. I'd be happy with affordable. Affordable for all. Free for the poor sure... Cheap for the working poor...
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Nov 14, 2013 - 09:20pm PT
We pay for it now, we should have it. It is the most humane thing we can do. Provide health care to all of our citizens.
Prod

Trad climber
Nov 14, 2013 - 09:21pm PT
Free is a misnomer, a single payer system is what we should have. F*#k the lobbyists!

Prod.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Nov 14, 2013 - 09:29pm PT
Free?

The United Socialist States

That's certainly what Obama wants...
Salamanizer

Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
Nov 14, 2013 - 09:29pm PT
Nothing is free accept our constitutional rights. Healthcare is a service, it can never be "free".
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 14, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
You're right, Mr Donini.

The government should force other people to pay for your healthcare, because paying for it yourself is, like, a real drag.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Nov 14, 2013 - 09:35pm PT
Thanks Jim, for posting a thread I can set my watch to by who posts!

(6.35pm... Thanks !)
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Nov 14, 2013 - 09:36pm PT
Incredible that ppl can argue with the OP statement. That is super f*#ked up.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 14, 2013 - 09:36pm PT
Damn straight.

We wouldn't want these feckin' gozillionaires to part with any of their hard earned scratch. Then they might not want to go out and create jobs n shit!!

Credit: survival






Credit: survival
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 14, 2013 - 09:37pm PT
The United Socialist States

now you're talking. Socialism Now, It's what Jesus Christ Advocates. What's your problem with it?

Credit: Wade Icey


Incredible that ppl can argue with the OP statement. That is super f*#ked up.


There you go again Crag... <br/>
There you go again Crag...

Credit: Wade Icey
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 14, 2013 - 09:39pm PT
Hey there, Jim.

You may have a point.

Each of us has their own point.

Some of us, unfortunately, have it right on on the tip-tops of their heads.

Setting my own watch, had I one.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 14, 2013 - 09:41pm PT
What did Jesus say about this anyway??
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 14, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
I know, but I'll defer to the resident experts...should be a fascinating opportunity to share their philosophy.
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Nov 14, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
You guys go climbing and dirtbag your way through life. I will work 60 hour weeks to make a modest salary and do the weekend warrior thing and pay for your health care.

Yeah, I will be stuck in the office and will only pull .10a while you guys get free health care and glorious routes all to yourself.

Time to tell the kids to dirtbag it.


Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 14, 2013 - 09:45pm PT
thanks man.

I will work 60 hour weeks to make a modest salary and do the weekend warrior thing and pay for your health care.

I'm already doing that to pay for my own healthcare.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 14, 2013 - 09:47pm PT
Cragman is executing his constidelusional right of separation of church and state...
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Nov 14, 2013 - 09:48pm PT
If you guys want free healthcare and the uptopian socialism ideals there is nothing stopping you from moving to Europe and giving up your U.S. citizenship. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Hasta la vista.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Nov 14, 2013 - 09:48pm PT
If you think that Socialism helps the poor, you are sorely mistaken.

The poor are helped by those that have much.

Socialism levels the field to lower middle class....and the poor go wanting.

One only needs to visit a Socialist society to see this in action.

EDIT: ^ I'll be happy to buy one way tickets for all the whack jobs here..
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 14, 2013 - 09:48pm PT
I like the idea but what about ILLEGAL immigration? We start getting free health care and EVERY ONE IN THE WORLD will want in..


ohwww wait a minute..






But i do agree BEFORE A DIME is given to any foreign country,, our health care system should be fixed first.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Nov 14, 2013 - 09:51pm PT
This definitely needed a new thread.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 14, 2013 - 09:53pm PT
Credit: right wing historical fantasy revisionism?
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Nov 14, 2013 - 09:56pm PT
^^^

LOL! That pic should start its own thread!


Edit- hey where'd it go Wade?!?


That ones pretty good too....
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Nov 14, 2013 - 10:01pm PT
There is no such thing as "free healthcare."

Canada, Western Europe, and some of the first-world parts of Asia all have the kind of healthcare system you want, Jim. But it ain't free.

It's far better than what you have in the US, but it is not free. We (us Canadians and Germans and Swedes and etc) all pay for it. We all understand that we pay for it. Just as we understand that we pay for highways, police, fire, armed forces, national parks. And it makes our countries better.

But the part of this whole deal that those who scream "socialized medicine" don't understand is that it makes our countries better for the rich as well as for the poor. Does anyone with a functioning brain think that rich businessmen in Germany dream of ways to get rid of the country's universal healthcare system?

Those of us looking at the Affordable Care Act from the outside understand that its biggest flaw is that it doesn't do enough. Your home-grown neanderthals think it goes too far.

Single-payer is the right approach for healthcare, just as it is for providing police, highways, and national parks.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 14, 2013 - 10:03pm PT
Ok,, NIX the five thousand hew IRS agents and instead hire govt Doctors and Nurses.

Nix 50% of Homeland security waste and hire doctors and nurses


Nix all the foreign aid to: Pakistan, afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, Libya, Somolia Nigeria, S Africa et al, and hire doctors and nurses. This COULD work eh..?? Brain surgeons would be GS-50s or some such..
Salamanizer

Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
Nov 14, 2013 - 10:04pm PT

Incredible that ppl can argue with the OP statement. That is super f*#ked up.

It's only fukked up because you don't understand the argument. Free healthcare is not what we need, that goal is impossible. Someone's going to pay for it and it's not going to be the super rich most of you are envisioning. It's going to be paid by the healthy 25 to 40 year olds who already work their asses off struggling to gain a foothold in this competitive world. What we need is affordable healthcare which the ACA only provides for some. For the rest it's astronomically expensive.

What is needed is good old free market competition. Not some huge government bureaucracy which can only totally f*#k it up in the best case scenario.

I'm 34 years old and I will never be able to "afford" 800 dollars a month for healthcare. Period!
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Nov 14, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
If you, an individual, make $ 36,000.00 a year in the socialist distopia of Canada, you will be income taxed 39%. Of this 39% you will contribute 48% of your income tax, equaling $6739.20 in one year of a tax cycle to health care.

As an individual you will pay an additional $ 66.50 per month, premium on your tax contribution for inclusive, universal health care.

$ 66.50 monthly premium X 12 months = $798.00
48% health care contribution of 39 % yearly income tax on $36.000 = $6739.20

Total cost through tax by way of premium and income tax contribution for someone earning $ 36.000.00, to entitle a Canadian to health care for everything that ails you, (yes, cancer too) = $ 7537.20

But really, we'd love some depleted uranium shells for our tanks and some F35 Lighning II's in order to wave our nationalist dick around, both politically and militarily, because that's the only thing the world understands...

Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Nov 14, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
Hey Mr. D I thought you were going to stick to OT threads (meaning climbing).
Did you fall off the wagon?
--------------------

So universal health care = socialism?
Universal education = the same?

Who paid for you to learn to read and write?

Darn those commies.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 14, 2013 - 10:10pm PT
Ghost,

How much do Canadians and Germans and Swedes contribute to medical R & D compared to the U.S.?

There's more to healthcare than just hiring an orderly to be there with Grandma ( and every other patient in the same hospital room ) when she dies.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Nov 14, 2013 - 10:20pm PT
How much do Canadians and Germans and Swedes contribute to medical R & D compared to the U.S.?

Same as you Chaz. Or did you think that outside the US there were no universities,
or pharmaceutical companies, or teaching hospitals, or...

Ah, f*#k. What's the point. Trying to talk to someone with Stars'n'stripes
blinders on is about as useful as talking to Mighty Hiker with his Maple-leaf
blinders on.

Go spend some time outside the US (no, not a two-week vacation) and then
come back and we'll talk.

Hmmm... Wait a minute. You do travel to the Seattle area from time to time, right?
So look me up next time you're here and we'll talk about it.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 14, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
Free, anything

I'll bet you are a believer.

Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Nov 14, 2013 - 10:22pm PT
I'm already doing that to pay for my own healthcare.

Wait till Obamacare fully kicks in.
You thought , like millions of Americans, that Obamacare would result in someone else paying for your health care.
Hahahahahaha.

You've been conned and manipulated by a master political sociopath.

Obamacare is not an altruistic project to deliver affordable health care to Americans, it is a scheme to gain control over individual citizens by a power hungry narcissistic government bent upon totalitarian outcomes.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Nov 14, 2013 - 10:25pm PT
It would take the cost off the back of business & allow U.S. industry to compete with the rest of the world.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Nov 14, 2013 - 10:25pm PT
TGT,

Why did you post that stupid picture ? You are capable of making a cogent point. Why take the triumphalist nonsense to heart ?
Deekaid

climber
Nov 14, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
photo bombs on every page please
Salamanizer

Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
Nov 14, 2013 - 10:29pm PT
how in the F*#K can you think obama's signing a market based system developed by romney and tweaked into GOP congress passable implimentation by paul ryan as a win for socialism?!?!?!?!?!

Romneycare and Obamacare are two totally different entities. That is why Massachusetts opposed Obamacare from the beginning. Look it up if you don't believe me. There are major key differences.
sempervirens

climber
Nov 14, 2013 - 10:46pm PT
aw feck, i'll bite....

Anti-socialists, What country do you want to live in that has a free market? Do you honestly believe US has a free market? Do you believe USSR was socialist? And Obama created Obamacare, why? Was it because he and his funders care so much about the poor? Or is it because of his socialist ideals? You're naďve.
Psilocyborg

climber
Nov 14, 2013 - 10:46pm PT
Health care cost reform goes hand in hand with socialized medicine.

Single payer system, flat tax. Done deal.

Then we need to attempt to cleabn up government corruption. I look at government now a days a just a con artist continually ripping off tax payers. I work construction doing all types of public works projects and the waste is insane. It seems deliberate.
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Nov 14, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
Romneycare and Obamacare are two totally different entities

Very true. One of the biggest problems in Mass is that the Mas#@&%es game the system. They wait until the non emergency health problem manifests itself and then sign up.

Other than an accident, this makes sense to do under Obamacare too. Especially true for the younger folks.

Yep thisknee has ben bothering me for years. Time to sign up, get it fixed and then quit paying my premiums and pay the "fine"

Way cheaper that way. Suppose the douchenozzles like Norton, Hedge and friends would say that is UNAMERICAN LOL

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 14, 2013 - 11:16pm PT
Bharata

Mountain climber
Pune
Nov 14, 2013 - 11:18pm PT
Pain pills are what He said the poor old non performers will get. He said.
Better for them, He said, to lessen burden on whole system. Help only those with much years ahead. Pills for old and miracle medical procedures for the
productive He said. And you Liberals all nodded heads like Liberals.


Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Nov 14, 2013 - 11:19pm PT
as well as free access to other things that keep us mentally and physically healthy (sane)....climbing, skiing, kayaking (I need a new one, sit on top)backpacking, sailing, music lessons....just to name a few.

Bet it would cut down on people needing healthcare. :)
ß Î Ř T Ç H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Nov 14, 2013 - 11:24pm PT
bunch of entitled pussies - "We want climbing grants ... and healthcare"
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Nov 14, 2013 - 11:26pm PT
For years now Obama lied outright to the American people. He told them they would be able to keep their individual plans when he damn well knew that the Insurance companies would be forced to cancel these plans under the requirements of this law.
He knowingly and intentionally lied in order to get reelected. Today at his press conference he compounded this sociopathic lie now that everyone knows the facts.
Millions of Americans have been affected adversely by this socialistic scheme to curtail their freedoms and extend the role of an incompetent, elitist-controlled government in their lives.

Obamacare is not an attempt to provide affordable health care to the American people , it is a project by the radical left to gain control of 1/6 of the American economy and to expand the control of the Federal government over the lives of individual Americans.
Obama and his extremist supporters want nothing less that total control of health care access in the US.. A single-payer system is what they are incrementally striving towards, in which the federal government , run by themselves of course, will be in complete control of people's health needs and services.

SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Nov 14, 2013 - 11:27pm PT

jghedge has it wrong again.

Donini has more climbing experience than he'll EVER have.
Climbing harder than he'll EVER climb.

Oh, did he say something????
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 14, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
Our current system is the problem-----and people that deny problems with our healthcare system have their own reasons to be in denial.

This link and report from NBC News, about an article in the Journal of the American Medical Association is for the rest of us.
http://www.nbcnews.com/health/what-makes-u-s-health-care-so-overpriced-its-not-2D11582695


And even though the U.S. spends $2.7 trillion a year, nearly 18 percent of gross domestic product (GDP), on health care, it’s not keeping up with the rest of the developed world when it comes to improving people’s health.

“It does show pretty clearly that price is the culprit here,” Dr. Hamilton Moses of the Alerion Institute in Virginia and Johns Hopkins University told reporters.

“Based on this review…the U.S. ‘system’ has performed relatively poorly,” Moses and colleagues wrote in the report, published in the Journal of the American Medical Association. Their findings echo what other experts have found – U.S. health care gives little value for the money.
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Nov 14, 2013 - 11:30pm PT
Still way cheaper? Hahahaha

You might want to do a little less posting and a little more thinking there.

No need to think when the facts state that this is true and is a real problem in Mass.

Go back to your delusional world Hedgy. Must be nice in fantasyland.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Nov 14, 2013 - 11:31pm PT
Here's a good example of the Muses that aid in humour (and good health) Lynne.

A Ukulele tutorial that's good for the heart:

TwistedCrank

climber
Bungwater Hollow, Ida-ho
Nov 14, 2013 - 11:31pm PT
donini drops a turd in the punchbowl and runs away giggling
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Nov 14, 2013 - 11:36pm PT
Hahahaha, try waiting till something happens that requires medical attention, then sign up.

Nobody will insure you for at least a few weeks, usually a month. By then, you're wiped out.


Again, try consulting with what little brains and common sense you have - THEN post.

Hey Hedge5.2, I am not telling you what I am doing, I am describing what occurs daily in Mass.

Yep Obama had no clue that polices were going to be canceled. You Sir are a dumbass if you believe that.


Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Nov 14, 2013 - 11:45pm PT
Just wait Hedge until Obamcare hits your Kaiser plan.

Have fun old man. Better hope mental health care is fully covered. Heck after you pay the $6k deductible with stays in the psych ward, you can get all the "free" lithium you need.


People like you exactly why our country is F'd up. Cheer and follow those sheep right over the cliff.



ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Nov 15, 2013 - 12:06am PT
Can someone find, in the billiion posts on health care threads, one comment from a Canadian or European denouncing their system and asserting ours is superior?

Also, those systems are hardly free; the citizens pay for them. Sure, some people don't work and get health care anyway, but the same is true here.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 15, 2013 - 01:30am PT
Twisted Crank, my thoughts exactly.

So why don't Americans just start being healthy? It's a lot cheaper.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Nov 15, 2013 - 01:32am PT
Jim Brennan, I just got a uke this summer. Food music for the soul. :)
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Nov 15, 2013 - 01:46am PT
Are you happy Donini?
Did you actually think something different would happen?

You do such a great job with climbing content, too bad this turd can't be flushed down.

I can hear you snickering from here:-)
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 15, 2013 - 02:25am PT
But i do agree BEFORE A DIME is given to any foreign country,, our health care system should be fixed first.


Wow, Rong! didn't know you Repugs were so anti-Israel!
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Nov 15, 2013 - 02:31am PT
I'm an American, but I've been living in Spain for more than 20 years. Here, health care is public, but certainly not free - we pay substantial taxes. However, the system is certainly better overall, and much cheaper than what's in the U.S. In the U.S., the providers and insurance companies have ordinary people against the wall, squeezing out the last dollar. Here, the government takes a reasonable amount, proportional to your income, and then the rest of the year you use whatever health care you need. There are issues related to people using the system to excess, but they're pretty minor compared to people going bankrupt due to bad luck or an accident, as happens in the U.S. It seems to me that having some politicians with enough spine to take on this issue is a good thing. It won't get solved quickly, but a start is a start.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 15, 2013 - 03:04am PT
You thought , like millions of Americans, that Obamacare would result in someone else paying for your health care.

No. I did not.


Credit: Wade Icey

Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 15, 2013 - 05:45am PT
Absolutely NO UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE!

The American way is selfishness and every man for himself.

If you want to get hit by an uninsured driver and go bankrupt with medical bills - that's your right and you are free to do so. I'm talking about freedom, man.

Do not ask me to finance your American dream, pal. Go to hell. This is my American dream. You can pry my freedom from my cold, homeless, bankrupt, dead fingers.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Nov 15, 2013 - 07:17am PT
"The American way is Selfishness",Well said SLR.[a doctor by the way]

This thread proves that.

It is ok that socialism exists in other areas of our government,say energy,agriculture,but those benefit people that have strong lobbies to protect their interest.So that is OK.

Selfish,only concerned of their selves.

What ,only 200 thousand people have signed up so far,We cannot afford to handle that?Really.

They need all they have ,to build Victory Lodges.

Mr.Donini is absolutely correct.
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Nov 15, 2013 - 08:14am PT
The Michael Moore documentary "SICKO" addresses this problem quite well.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Nov 15, 2013 - 08:54am PT
Fritz has it right. The US spends about 18% of GDP on healthcare - more than any other nation. Countries with socialized healthcare spend about 9% GDP. We are already paying too much and getting too little. The bloated cost of healthcare is sucking the life out of our economy.

Obamacare may be broken but at least it was an attempt to do something.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 15, 2013 - 09:22am PT
Healthcare would be a breeze if there weren't an 800 Billion pound gorilla in the room, called the sacred military industrial complex.
WTF

climber
Nov 15, 2013 - 09:46am PT
You want me to pay more to help,fat lazy obese sh#t bags who eat crap and don't take of themselves. You want me to pay more for old saggy sacks of nuts like some of the old f*#ks here because they spent more time climbing than planning on retirement and health care needs.

Yeah right not going to happen. I love the fact only a handful of people have signed up for this junk show. I say the people of this country are sending a message loud and clear.

Norton take your Obama care and shove it up your polyp riddled old ass.



Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Nov 15, 2013 - 10:09am PT
The Michael Moore documentary "SICKO" addresses this problem quite well.

Except for the fact that hypocritical SOB is a walking billboard for obesity, diabetes, heart disease and countless other conditions.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Nov 15, 2013 - 10:19am PT
You want me to pay more to help,fat lazy obese sh#t bags who eat crap and don't take of themselves. You want me to pay more for old saggy sacks of nuts like some of the old f*#ks here because they spent more time climbing than planning on retirement and health care needs.


You already are if you're paying for private health insurance, as the hospitals that treat them and don't get paid raise their rates on those who ARE insured, to compensate, and the insurance companies raise their rates on YOU to compensate in turn. And you're not paying just for those folks you (somewhat justifiably) distain, you're also paying for the lavish lifestyle of parasitic insurance company executives and their big share holders on top of that.

Is that system really better than single payer could be?

All the other developed countries in the world don't think so...
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 15, 2013 - 10:21am PT
Healthcare would be a breeze if there weren't an 800 Billion pound gorilla in the room, called the sacred military industrial complex.

Credit: Dave Kos

(Posted in the other thread, but I like this photo so much.)

My wife and I at the company offsite along with 300 other employees.

At a five star Cayman Island resort.

This was at the end of the trip, I may a look a little weary out after three days of enjoying the open bar. Hard to resist the temptations. They had a bar right in the swimming pool!

Of course we had a "cadillac" health insurance. No deductible, very low co-pay. They even gave us $100/month in our medical reimbursement account.

It was good gig, but I left that job after a couple years, because it was so boring.

The contracts we had worked like this: You figure out how much work it will take to get something done, and bid for ten times that much. When you got the contract, you had to pace yourself, working at about 10% speed.

Work for an hour, surf the internet, hang out around the water cooler, talk politics (most of my coworkers were Sarah Palin supporters at the time, probably still are.)

And at the end of the day, bill the government for eight hours of work.

When the project was over, we would shelve the work it and start all over on another contract.

The "customers" were mostly NavAir and NGA. There were other agencies. We did a little project for USSOCOM.

I was a software developer. I created a few prototypes for stuff, tried to keep busy.

My boss' job description was manager half time and developer the other half. In two years, he never wrote a single line of code. His only management function was to submit weekly status reports. I wrote the reports for him. He did nothing but surf the web. Backpacking and outdoor sites, car sites (he loved Top Gear.) He didn't even try to pretend otherwise. It was always right there on his screen when you walked past his office.

He billed the government for eight hours of work every day. His rate was probably about $150/hour. The company got about half, he got the other half in salary in benefits.

They sent us all to the Cayman Islands to celebrate the ten year anniversary of the company. It had grown from nothing to $90 million in revenue during that time. Founded by former Air Force officers. The company started out doing commercial satellite imagery, but struggled for a few years. Then 9/11 happened and they hit the jackpot.

I hear there's climbing at Cayman but I didn't seek it out. After we got off the plane, we drove through the banking district on the way to the resort. Mitt Romney's money was in one of those banks at the time, probably still is.

There were a couple of company meetings, but most of the trip we just relaxed on the beach. The beaches there are beautiful. There's a place where you can just stand in the water and the stingrays swim all around you.

But now I hear Jim Donini and his ilk telling us that wealth should be confiscated and used for outrageous things, like asthma treatments for a four-year-old child, or heart medication for an out-of-work construction worker. These ideas are socialist, and we all know where that leads.

These are troubling times, and I'm worried. I still have friends at that company and I'm considering going back. But if we don't revoke this Obamacare thing, the next company trip may be a cash bar.





Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Nov 15, 2013 - 10:39am PT
Cool company trip and everything. Not exactly sure how your experience working for an inefficient government contractor is relevant to Obamacare but it is a nice pic:-)
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 15, 2013 - 10:41am PT
Not exactly sure how your experience working for an inefficient government contractor is relevant to Obamacare

Yes you do.
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Nov 15, 2013 - 10:43am PT
You should go back to work for them
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 15, 2013 - 10:45am PT
You should go back to work for them

Nah, I kinda like having ethics.

Of course we are all still paying for them, and hundreds of other companies like them.

Because freedom isn't free. Everyone has to pay. It's right there on your 1040.

But we can't afford healthcare.
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Nov 15, 2013 - 10:50am PT
But we can't afford healthcare

Has this always been the case or just something that has manifested in the past 10, 20, 30 or even 50 years?

I could afford healthcare in 2013. Not so sure I can in 2014.

Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 15, 2013 - 10:52am PT
Has this always been the case or just something that has manifested in the past 10, 20, 30 or even 50 years?

Eisenhower introduced the term "military industrial complex" in 1961, but it really started just after WWII.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 15, 2013 - 10:52am PT
Ward, you aren't Shack's Insurance agent by any chance?

Obamacare is not an attempt to provide affordable health care to the American people , it is a project by the radical left to gain control of 1/6 of the American economy and to expand the control of the Federal government over the lives of individual Americans.

as opposed to controlling 53% percent of the economy via Defense. Pure Evil.

Obama and his extremist supporters want nothing less that total control of health care access in the US.. A single-payer system is what they are incrementally striving towards, in which the federal government , run by themselves of course, will be in complete control of people's health needs and services.

Bring it on. I'll give your sorry asses a ride to the ER any time.

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Nov 15, 2013 - 10:52am PT
Right on Kos.....




Oh, (not to Kos) and please don't slander my best friend unless you know him as well as I do. lynnie
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Nov 15, 2013 - 10:58am PT
Oh, (not to Kos) and please don't slander my best friend unless you know him as well as I do. lynnie

Who are speaking to with this request?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 15, 2013 - 11:03am PT
Credit: Wade Icey

Lynnie- What did your friend say about the poor and the sick? His usually more vocal followers seem to be silent(or adamantly opposed) on this topic...
steveA

Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
Nov 15, 2013 - 11:04am PT
Dave Kos,

It looks to me like that company, you used to work for, needs a little direct competition!
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Nov 15, 2013 - 11:18am PT
Wade Icy, he took care of them.

And I really didn't need to say anything, he can take care of himself. Just annoying when people make comments that are not based on knowledge. It's like me telling someone how to climb the Nose. :)
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Nov 15, 2013 - 11:20am PT
Just annoying when people make comments that are not based on knowledge

So if someone disagrees with you or your friends, it is slander. Give me a break

Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 15, 2013 - 11:24am PT
It looks to me like that company, you used to work for, needs a little direct competition!

Yes, the "free market" should lower the costs, but the defense industry, especially the lucrative "intelligence" industry, has very high barriers to entry. You have to know how to navigate the contracts, work through the security clearance process, etc. And of course it helps to have connections.

It's a very tough business to get into if one is not former military. The only people that can realistically start these sorts of businesses are former military program managers and big brass.

Of course it's that way by design. Most classified work is just a means to protect the business. Nobody can try to compete with you if they don't even know what you are doing.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/

It's massive amounts of money. Money that is taken from the paychecks of every American to fund.

HALF of the "federal taxes" item on our paychecks goes toward this stuff.

You think the Obamacare website is a disaster? I've worked on several major government/defense IT major projects that were 10X the budget of the Obamacare site. All of them complete disasters. And we keep throwing money at them, without question.

Yup, none of our armchair "patriots" will question the obscene amounts of money we spend to keep us "safe." But they are in a constant state of outrage over the much smaller amount of money we could spend to keep us healthy.
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Nov 15, 2013 - 11:28am PT
You think the Obamacare website is a disaster? I've worked on several major government/defense IT major projects that were 10X the budget of the Obamacare site. All of them complete disasters. And we keep throwing money at them, without question.

Why would Obamacare be any different. Same corrupt government, different market segment( Kind of).

The IT integration required by Obamacare is on a scale never seen before. I am sure our gov't will issue huge contracts to only the most efficient and upstanding contractors.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Nov 15, 2013 - 11:30am PT
Snowmassguy, not what I meant. Just that this thread seemed to me to be about the very debatable (and for good reason ) topic of healthcare. What the heck does jesus have to do with it? If you read Matthew 5,6 and 7 you'd see that jesus took care of the poor and the sick and encouraged people to not make possessions, but people, their priority. :)
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Nov 15, 2013 - 11:40am PT
Personally, I think the root of the problem we face is due to folks not taking care of them selves combined with an attitude towards entitlements that is out of control.

Sure, smoke, drink, eat like sh**, live a sedate lifestyle and game the sytem for entitlements that are YOUR INTRINSIC RIGHT. It is the American way!!!!

Credit: Snowmassguy
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 15, 2013 - 11:42am PT

"I think half of the problem we face is due to folks not taking care of them selves"...

It is for sure a factor...

But what can anyone do to change THAT???...




EDITED:

Education...

rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Nov 15, 2013 - 11:45am PT
If you were a 27 year old billionaire, you might have a different opinion.

Never ask a man what should be done with another. Ask him what should be done with him, for he is the only person who he truly knows.

Dave


P.S. Building that mansion in Aspen provided the local builds with jobs. Would it have been better to just give them money outright, and not demand a days work from them for it? Nothing is simple.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Nov 15, 2013 - 12:00pm PT
I chimed in on the other thread briefly, and will do so again here with my small business perspective.

As a country we pay something like 17% of GDP now for health care. Most of the countries who have socialized, or single payer systems, seem to spend 8-10%. So for me, a single payer system is a no brainer. Health care costs continue to go up and up and the very high cost already is impeding the ability of people like me to grow my business, and I expect it will only get worse. Small companies fund growth with retained earnings. If retained earnings are lower so is the ability to grow.

On our company policy the premiums for myself and an infant, for this coming year, together are somewhere on the order of $26,500. Where is the affordable part of the ACA? I guess it's meant to be affordable for the poor, and that's good. The rest of us are still being bled dry though.

For those of you complaining about the prospect of paying for health care for others in a socialized system, those who have insurance already do pay for others in the form of higher premiums because hospitals, who can't turn people away (nor should they), pass along those expenses to people who can pay.

Single payer and 9% of GDP would be great. The problem with that idea though is it will gore the insurance companies, doctors, pharm companies, hospital corporations, and litigators. All of these groups are very powerful and so it is the rest of us who will continue to be gored.
Binks

climber
Uranus
Nov 15, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
i'm in favor of free healthcare. it would be great to see all those insurance companies and people making 100's of millions off of other people's suffering scream. f*#k them, they are way too powerful and making way too much money for what they actually provide.
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Nov 15, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
Sorry for posting a pic of you and your GF Hedgy
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 15, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
What the heck does jesus have to do with it? If you read Matthew 5,6 and 7 you'd see that jesus took care of the poor and the sick and encouraged people to not make possessions, but people, their priority. :)

Lynne, I believe you. That's why it's so maddening to hear Jesus' republican followers be so dead set against giving, sharing and what they call "socialism".
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Nov 15, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
I am neither a follower of Jesus or a Republican and do not support Obama or his busted health care scheme.

Developing a health care system that works will never occur unless people take off their partisan blinders and work together for mutually beneficial outcome.

When big government tries to cram a broken politically motivated plan down the throat of the middle class, failure will ensue.

locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 15, 2013 - 01:08pm PT


I can't help but wonder where Blitzo would be today had he had health insurance all along...
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Nov 15, 2013 - 01:11pm PT
I have no problem with free healthcare...I have a problem with being mandated to sign up for it. Free but not "free".

When everyone is under mandatory healthcare, the next step is mandatory "health checks". This is just one step away from concentration camps.

Mandatory fee imposed upon simply living your life is not an acceptable trait of a "free country". I believe this is unconstitutional and eventually will be stricken down.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 15, 2013 - 01:17pm PT


"This is just one step away from concentration camps."...

LMAO!!!...

What a CROCK!!!...



tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Nov 15, 2013 - 01:20pm PT
May be I'm a crock, but not on crack, unlike you.

I had personally known a person overseeing psychiatric prisons of a communist country and you simply don't know what what you might be bracing for in the future. Some people are blind, guided by their immediate interests. But the future may hold surprises...don't be so fast dismissing the idea of potential involuntary confinement of many citizens, as your freedoms are slipping away, one by one. Keep cheering...until you find an officer at your door telling you what to do.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 15, 2013 - 01:20pm PT


Yeah!!!...

The health care provided in the Concentration camps was pretty good...

A few tablets in a bucket of water usually did the trick...
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Nov 15, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
Fixed it for you.


BS, lies, deception, bait and switch....yep that is the solution Hedge.

Wait, I thought Obamacare was the solution? What happened?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Nov 15, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
I REALLY do not know why somebody felt the need to start yet another thread on this subject. I could speculate, but why bother? After this post I don't intend to have anything to do with this thread, as this is just ot thread proliferation, and this EXACT topic is already being discussed elsewhere.

Those who keep posting here might ask: How MANY ot threads do we really need on the subject of health care?

I know, let's have at least a dozen, and then everybody can keep posting to all of them, and then all of them can fill up the front page, and then we can become a health care forum instead of a climbing forum. Yeah, that's it. Go lemmings, go!
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Nov 15, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
Without proper healthcare, we'll all become Zombies.

hellroaring

Trad climber
San Francisco
Nov 15, 2013 - 01:32pm PT
Hell yeah! I'm writting in Donini for prez in 2016!!
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 15, 2013 - 01:33pm PT
Socialism levels the field to lower middle class....and the poor go wanting.

One only needs to visit a Socialist society to see this in action.

You mean socialist societies like Denmark and Norway? I don't think you understand what a socialist society really is.

The happiest people in the world apparently reside in northern Europe, according to a 156-nation survey published by the United Nations Sustainable Development Solutions Network.

Released Monday, the 2013 World Happiness Report ranks the happiest countries around the globe, with Denmark, Norway and Switzerland leading the pack. Among North American countries, Canada took sixth place, while Mexico (16) slightly outranked the U.S. (17)...


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/09/world-happiness-report-happiest-countries_n_3894041.html

Curt
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Nov 15, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
And standing in the way of a solution? the repub party

Hedge, for the most part I find the way you deliver your messages counterproductive. All you do is alienate people. But the substance of this message of yours is spot on.

As for whoever broached the idea that socialized medicine will start a slippery slope to concentration camps....are you serious? Really? Look at all of the countries with socialized medicine, spending half of what we do. Do you see any concentration camps? If so, please point them out so we can all recognize you are right and that socialized medicine in this country will also lead to concentration camps.

Edited to add:

We've already had socialized medicine in the form of Medicare and Medicaid, and socialized retirement in the form of Social Security, for many decades. If the socialism slope is so slippery why don't we have concentration camps here now?
craig morris

Trad climber
la
Nov 15, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
Why not a price to buy in to Medicare that would have a sliding scale as you near retirement. this would bring in younger\healthy people to pad costs, and competition.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 15, 2013 - 02:50pm PT

Some facts for spinning Republican minds who are hardly able to read them
 USA compared to five "socialist" countries:

Concentration camps - defined as camps where the government are keeping people outside ordinary rules of law, torturing them and so on
 USA: Guantanamo
 Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Switzerland: No such camps

Percentage of the population kept in prison
 USA: 716/100.000
 Switzerland: 82/100.000
 Norway: 71/100.000
 Denmark: 68/100.000
 Sweden: 67/100.000
 Finland: 60/100.000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate

Intentional homicide 2012
 USA: 4,7/100.000
 Finland: 2,2/100.000
 Sweden: 1,0/100.000
 Switzerland: 0,7/100.000
 Norway: 0,6/100.000
 Denmark: 0,5/100.000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Why is there so much more freedom in the countries that Republicans see as "socialist" countries than there is in the USA?

Why is the present American ideology creating this internal US horror?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 15, 2013 - 03:08pm PT

Total health care expenditure per capita - USA compared to "socialist" countries:
 USA: USD 8.233,-
 Norway: USD 5.388,-
 Switzerland: USD 5.270,-
 Denmark: USD 4.464,-
 Sweden: USD 3.758,-
 Finland: USD 3.251,-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_(PPP)_per_capita

Why are Americans willing to put an incredible amount of their own money into the pockets of insurance companies when you could realize health care for everybody at a much lower cost?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2013 - 03:09pm PT
Slippery slope.....nah, were in the era of sticky rubber.
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Nov 15, 2013 - 03:20pm PT
Also, let's look at it this way...

A bunch of privileged, "exceptional" and special individuals aka
citizens of "first world countries" wants to engage in egotistical and reckless pursuits and "adult child" lifestyle by engaging in various risky sports..."cuz we're bored otherwise"

OMG, they owe to cover my MRI tore my shoulder I was climbing without warmup!!! I neglected my conditioning and I just have to be The First sending this one (cause this is Passion of My Life and you will pay for my physio) I fell and broke my leg the society now owes me!! Send helicopters I'm not paying for fuel, and I'm gonna do it all over again.

hahaha...of course, someone owes free healthcare...
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Nov 15, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
Also, let's look at it this way...

A bunch of privileged, "exceptional" and special individuals aka
citizens of "first world countries" wants to engage in egotistical,
"adult child" lifestyle by engaging in various risky sports.

OMG, they owe to cover my MRI I was climbing without warmup!!!
I neglected my conditioning and I just have to be The First sending
this one!

hahaha...really, no one owed free care to anyone

Some people will always game the system. So what? Or perhaps to keep said solopsist climber from gaming the system we should keep everything just the way it is now, with the country spending 17% or more on health care to be sure that doctors, litigators, hospital corporations, insurance companies, and pharm companies make ever more, and all the while 40 million people remain uninsured.

Wake up.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 15, 2013 - 03:44pm PT


"Why are Americans willing to put an incredible amount of their own money into the pockets of insurance companies...

when you could realize health care for everybody at a much lower cost?"
...


How do they not see that they are fighting for the Insurance Companies...

and NOT for themselves???...

I don't get it either...
Roughster

Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
Nov 15, 2013 - 03:47pm PT
Norton wrote: the truth? you think you can handle the truth, Sparky?
http://images.politico.com/global/2013/09/27/politico_understanding_obamacare_guide.html

Excellent read. I would encourage everyone to go through it. I felt fairly informed and found some really good new info in there. I also like how it cuts through the hysterics of both sides arguments and talks about the possibilities of the issues.

Is ACA perfect? Of course not, but nothing really is when it is rolled out. How about we set aside our differences and give it a shot. Our healthcare system pre-ACA was perfectly suited to yield the results that we are getting right now. I don't think many, if any, would say our health system is working well right now, neither Demos or Repubs, considering the insurance companies are making out like bandits and leaving individuals and the government holding the bill.

I believe the ACA will work in the long run. It will take some fixes and tweaks, but it will work and this country will be better off for it.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Nov 15, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
Well said Roughster,and yes that is a good level headed read.

Marlow ,thanks for pointing those stats out to these folks.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 15, 2013 - 04:58pm PT
Insurance companies are doing just fine.

photo not found
Missing photo ID#330377

Yeah right, clearly the ACA is socialism.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 15, 2013 - 05:01pm PT
the insurance companies WILL make out like the biggest bandits of all time. What with ridiculous deductibles and extorted rates mandated by law for everyone to have will be a landslide profit for them. This latest "delay" just sent heads spinning over the loss of profit.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Nov 15, 2013 - 05:06pm PT
Thank god Ron finally came over....
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 15, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
The time I spent in Sweden showed me the virtues of universal health care...

|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Credit: Reilly

Ikke sant, Marlow?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 15, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
What Republicans are talking about as "socialism" in the Northern part of Europe, is in reality what is giving people their freedom. And what Republicans are talking about as freedom in America is in reality "corporatism", i.e. freedom for the big corporations, and that's what's making the Americans of our time some of the clearest candidate slaves on earth...

I'll not argue about the virtues you found in Swedish health care, Reilly...
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Nov 15, 2013 - 05:18pm PT



The insurance monkeys are sending
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2013 - 05:27pm PT
Spot on Marlow. America is burdened by unbridaled capitalisim, cultural isolation, religious extremisim and hubris. Despite that, having been to 55 countries, i wouldn't want to live anywhere else....you can separate the wheat from the chaff and there is more wheat here then anywhere else.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 15, 2013 - 05:35pm PT
I'm glad to hear Donini... as ST is demonstrating every day America is a more beautiful country than I had ever imagined and I have understood that money is not a big issue for you who are travelling to many fascinating out-posts on our globe... (out-posts as seen with my western-centric eyes)
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Nov 15, 2013 - 05:43pm PT
Plus probably 90% of the posters freaking about socialism themselves receive "free" health care, have never spent any real time out of the U.S. and don't understand that there is little if any connection between economic performance and welfare expenditure (see, e.g., Germany, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, etc.).

We just have a gawd given right to the freedom to pay about two times as much for our health care than what other developed countries pay.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 15, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
Socialism levels the field to lower middle class....and the poor go wanting.

One only needs to visit a Socialist society to see this in action.

Have you checked out Forbes Magazines list of the best cities in the world to live in?
http://www.forbes.com/2010/05/25/worlds-best-cities-lifestyle-real-estate-mercer-vienna-geneva_slide.html

Guess how many are in Euro-style social democracies? 10!

Guess how many are in uber-capitalistic USA? Zero.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 15, 2013 - 05:50pm PT
Credit: pyro



Plus plus for TGT


Effing dirt bags dreaming of free healthcare. Only climbers could come up with this crap!
Lol free healthcare...
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 15, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
America the "exceptional" does provide free protection from terrorist bogeymen.

It's free!

Even dirtbag climbers get it.

At no cost!


SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Nov 15, 2013 - 05:56pm PT

Mr. Dave, it's knott free. My tax bill says over 50% goes to
that um, protection?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 15, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
sooo as this current attempt/debacle unfurls and the LAW somehow magically "changed" or delayed, an illegal act in itself as the LAW is written, how are they going to "fix" this? Is this just time for all insurance companies to change to the extorted rates/policies with un needed coverage's for all?

Which would be essentially price fixing by govt sanction?

Are they going to nix those 10 essentials? (the ones some of you told me a while back you didnt HAVE to have)

And if so will that INCREASE cost of coverage for those that need them all?? Since it comes from a reduced "pool"?


Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 15, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
sooo you dont know how they will fix it either,, roger that...
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 15, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
Mr. Dave, it's knott free. My tax bill says over 50% goes to
that um, protection?

You mean government provides services that are funded by taxes?

What a concept!

wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Nov 15, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
Ron ,respectfully,read Nortons link upthread.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 15, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
i went back 4 or 5 pages, no Norton link.


Norton lives in the most irradiated state in the union- worse than cali/nv and Az. Jus sayin..;-)


donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
Funny how people grumble about taxes and big government......but, my oh my, a calamity comes along (fire, hurricane, earthquake, flood) and conservative hamlets (Colorado Springs comes to mind) beg for all of the federal government help they can get.....help they didn't want fund.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 15, 2013 - 06:18pm PT


^^^

+1

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 15, 2013 - 06:20pm PT
Well Yes and NO JD,, and i believe you know this also.

Some think that their taxes should go to the USA and its concerns Yes. And therefore think what the gobblement gets at this time is sufficient to run the country. Its NOT that they dont think good universal health care systems arent good, but rather that being further reduced in their incomes will reduce their quality of life they worked so hard to get. And they also resent the fact that billions are given to those countries that have done nothing but harbor our known enemies abroad. We will give the TALIBAN arms in syria through benghazi, but must tax us more to pay for extorted mandated healthcare? You see, it isnt JUST about health care, its about ALL the lying sobs we call the gobblement.





edit: I dont care WHO you are at this point, but the out blatant LYING by our government these days has gone beyond epidemic..And YES its been happening in previous admins, which are OVER. But i shall not be defending many in-situ politicians any time soon.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 15, 2013 - 06:35pm PT

this is for donini!
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Nov 15, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
http://images.politico.com/global/2013/09/27/politico_understanding_obamacare_guide.html

Ron ,this is the link ,just read some.

You know the government is us ,just people ,they are no different than any other,there are good ones and bad ones,we all know how to deal with them in real life ,so it goes.You are not going to change that.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Nov 15, 2013 - 07:41pm PT
People have blasted insurance companies, and I believe, rightfully so. When I drive by their monolithic structures in big cities, my brain says, "Lynne, someones making big bucks here and it ain't going to the people paying the monthly premium."

But what about the "deep pockets"? When our first son was born, he was redeemed from the hospital for $750.00. How much does it cost to redeem your first born now? Let me guess.....@ $20,000.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 15, 2013 - 09:06pm PT

gotta have it on top!
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 15, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
I loved that show when I was a kid.
TheMaster

climber
Nov 15, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
It is only free to those that don't work for it.

zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
Nov 15, 2013 - 10:29pm PT
universal health care from the cradle to the grave

I'm in favor, but just what is included here? My mom was coverd by "medicare advantage" and it took her right into the grave.

It's a big task but medicine needs to be reformed as much as (probably more)does the provision of health care.




Does that Aspen mansion have a car elevator?
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Nov 15, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
Tioga,

It is different in North America compared to SlavRussiaStan and there's a simple reason for that. Believe it or not, rule of civil and criminal law concerning criminality is pretty strong here.

As bad as the politicians are in the West, We instinctively don't vote in gangsters for our own good.

Vladimir Putin wouldn't make it past the church basement, town hall meeting.

You are typical of Europeans finding life good here but incessantly sniveling that everything's better in Europe and we're all going to suffer eventually.



pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 15, 2013 - 11:24pm PT
Credit: pyro
for Dr Kos!
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 15, 2013 - 11:25pm PT
Credit: pyro
...
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 15, 2013 - 11:27pm PT
somebody has to pay for the gas!
somebody has to pay for the gas!
Credit: pyro
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 15, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
gotta pay dix
gotta pay dix
Credit: pyro
somebody better pay the Dr's!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 15, 2013 - 11:31pm PT
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Nov 16, 2013 - 12:46am PT
One last thing....Working in the medical arena, having money, having no money, watching people with and without money one thing becomes apparent and important.

We only have one life. Insurance or not take care of your life. I have seen people go on expensive vacations, buy costly cars and then die because they didn't pay for healthcare.

My life comes first no matter what the government does with healthcare. I hope yours does too. Cheers, lynnie
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Nov 16, 2013 - 07:59am PT
"Let's prove that "American Exceptionalisim" is more than just hubris. The richest country on earth....a country with 27 year old billionaires and super rich hedge fund managers and venture capitalist who produce nothing, a country with a growing and dangerous divide in the wealth of it's citizens....the least a country like our's can do is provide universal health care from the cradle to the grave.
The rich can grumble about socialisim but they'll still be able to build 20,000 square foot mansions in Aspen that they use two weeks a year."


your class envy (and bitterness) is astounding


ok, where to begin....


first, though it's so obvious i hesitate to say it but you obviously keep forgetting it, so, NOTHING is "free"; i do agree that the rich should give more to those who don't have enough; the only difference between you and me is that i strictly oppose the government forcing the rich to give more

well, another difference is that i admire people who have become rich (as long as they do it legally) including the hedge fund managers and venture capitalists who risk the funds and capital that allow entrepreneurs to build cool stuff and employ lots of people

but most of us have "disposable income", which is why we're able to harangue each other on st rather than spend this time working, so, donini, why not use your disposable income to pay for a poor person's health care instead of wasting it on climbing gear and trips and beer, etc.? wouldn't that be a better use of your extra cash? in fact, rather than sitting there seething about me, why not spend your extra time working to make yourself richer so you can pay for a poor person's medication? why not set an example for all those evil rich people? i bet you'll feel a lot better about yourself and, probably, will find you just don't have time to feel so much resentment toward rich people, which will also make you feel better

Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 16, 2013 - 08:33am PT
Thanks pyro,

I was really young when that show was on, and I only have vague memories of it.

There was one episode where things got mixed up and they brought an injured animal to the hospital and the injured person to the veterinarian.

I think it may have been a goat. The doctors fixed it up. I don't remember what the vet did with the person.

From the perspective of a six-year-old, it all seemed very realistic.

Does Obamacare cover pets?

Of course not, but soon enough Limbaugh and the Fox News gang will be complaining that it does. And TGT will be posting a cartoon about it.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Nov 16, 2013 - 08:41am PT
Better than free would be fair pricing. Doctor visit $25. Broken leg $500 to set. Birth $800.

Healthcare prices went bad when govt got involved and that has to do with taxes.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Nov 16, 2013 - 09:00am PT
Yup- nothing's free. Our gov. has the dough, they just (obviously) choose to mishandle it and greedy finaglers seem to have possession of the hammer and the entire piggy bank. It's totally out of control. I don't see any reason we, as Americans, shouldn't be entitled to health care provided by our wealthy government. It could be done, it's just all so corrupt and broken.

I see reports about how many sickening billions of dollars are spent on meddling in other countries and war and think.. sh#t. for that price tag they could simply buy a modest health care plan for every man woman and child in the US.

@JGHenge:
@Pyro"..Simple, really".
Yes, yes it is ;)
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Nov 16, 2013 - 09:05am PT
I agree, Justthemaid. It could be done. It seems to point to a meanness of spirit in Americans that we don't, or perhaps a misguided pick yourself up by the bootstraps mentality. Pinch this penny on helping others in order to spend a gold brick on a bomb. Whatever.

I'm glad I don't work on the insurance side of healthcare.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 16, 2013 - 11:06am PT
Those who can debate, do

Those who can't, post pictures and cartoons.

keep that drum circle booming hedge!

keep chanting it's free it's free!
Credit: pyro

pictures say's thousand words

Dr Kos love ur story! no deductible nice
chappy

Social climber
ventura
Nov 16, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
Bookworm,
Really? Class envy?? Bitterness?? I like how you miss quoted Jim: (having free in quotation marks). Jim used the word universal not free. Of course he knows nothing is free just as he knows living a rich life isn't all about possessions. His whole point was that we are rich enough country to have it both ways--the rich can have their mansions and we can have universal health care--we simply lack the national moral will to make it happen. I happen to agree with him. I think we, as a country, need to ask ourselves why such a basic human need isn't being more adequately addressed, why we seem to be behind most of the industrialized world in dealing with this issue.
Chappy
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 16, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
We need this too!

http://www.federalobserver.com/2013/11/12/the-affordable-boat-act-of-2014/

he U.S. government has just passed a new law entitled “The Affordable Boat Act” declaring that every citizen MUST purchase a new boat by April, 2014.

These ‘affordable’ boats will cost an average of $54,000-$155,000 each. This does not include taxes, trailers, towing fees, licensing and registration fees, fuel, docking and storage fees, maintenance, or repair costs.

This law has been passed because, until now, typically only wealthy and financially responsible people have been able to purchase boats. This new law ensures that every American can now have an ‘affordable’ boat of their own, because everyone is ‘entitled’ to a new boat. If you purchase your boat before the end of the year, you will receive four ‘free’ life jackets (does not include monthly usage fees).

In order to make sure everyone purchases an ‘affordable boat,’ the cost of owning a boat will increase on average of 250-400% per year. This way, wealthy people will pay more for something that other people don’t want or can’t afford to maintain. But, to be fair, people who can’t afford to maintain their boat will be regularly fined and children (under the age of 26) can use their parents boat(s) to party on until they turn 27, after which date they must purchase their own boat..............
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
Yeah Mark....little ole bookyworm sounds like the one seething, his tongue must never be in cheek.
sempervirens

climber
Nov 16, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
What if the ideals are put aside and the economics of health care are discussed. Forget the typical rants about the greedy rich and the lazy poor. Consider the system, the price we pay and the services we get. Does anyone believe our system is as good as it can be? Is there no better way?

Can the federal government control prices? Hasn't the system already been controlled, long before Obamacare? Has that worked well? If healthcare were cheaper then it would not account for 1/6 (by many estimates)of our GDP.

If we had a single payer system that single payer could have a damn strong negotiating position on price. By the way, negotiating price is a free market principle, isn't it.

For sake of discussion: if it was a better system, and provided free care to some truly lazy free loaders who game the system, and yet saved money for the majority of us while providing better or even equal services, would you conservatives oppose it? If so, why? Just out of spite? Or is it because of your fear of Hitler and Stalin and socialist ideals? The ideals and the economic reality are not as closely related as the media would have us believe, IMO.

If you agree we can improve the system, and we should do it, then isn't that enough reason to dump the tea party and ted cruz attitudes opposing any change?
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 16, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
somebody has to pay for the gas!
somebody has to pay for the gas!
Credit: pyro
sempervirens

climber
Nov 16, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
Health care economics is a complex topic, no. "We can't afford it", is not a very productive answer to the problem since we're already paying outrageous amounts.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 16, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
Let's prove that "American Exceptionalisim" is more than just hubris. The richest country on earth....a country with 27 year old billionaires and super rich hedge fund managers and venture capitalist who produce nothing, a country with a growing and dangerous divide in the wealth of it's citizens....the least a country like our's can do is provide universal health care from the cradle to the grave.
The rich can grumble about socialisim but they'll still be able to build 20,000 square foot mansions in Aspen that they use two weeks a year.

Wow. And you should be old enough to remember your history.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
Right you are bluering. My father was a history professor, I'm quite grounded in the subject and not just American History.
Did you see my invitating to climb in Indian Creek? Gas up your car, i'll do the barbeque.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Nov 16, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
I sympathize with those who don't think there should be a free ride for anyone. The problem is hospitals and doctors, and the rest of us too really, have a moral and ethical obligation to help anyone in need of medical attention whether they have insurance or not. I contrast this with TGT's boat example. No one has a moral or ethical obligation to provide anyone with a boat. Health care is unique in this way.

In our current system often the uninsured seek treatment in the most inefficient way possible. They wait until they are really f*#cked and then they go to the ER. In two hours in the ER the cost to care for their bad headache is $6,000, or something like that. Hospitals and doctors pass the costs of treating the uninsured on to those of us who have insurance.

A single payer system would cut out the "stakeholders" who are bleeding the rest of us as they profit from human misery. It would cost us a whole lot less as a country and thereby make the rest of the national economy more vibrant and competitive.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 16, 2013 - 01:55pm PT
Jimmy, I'd love to climb with you some day. Right now, traveling there is a no-go.

My point is that, yes, "Socialized" medicine is not good for all. It's mediocre for all.

Solution?

Repeal the ACA. Allow Health to be traded nationally, across State lines (the Federal gov't has the authority to mandate this).

Change the way people are allowed to sue the doctors for ridiculous reasons, Tort reform. Some lawsuits obviously are legit.

Have the gov't modify existing programs (MEdiCare/Medicaid) to accept people w/o insurance. Legal citizens of course.

It is less than the stated 50 million. Prolly more like 15 million.

Let's not change the entire system for the worse to affect a small minority. 85% of people are happy with things the way the are.

EDIT:

In our current system often the uninsured seek treatment in the most inefficient way possible. They wait until they are really f*#cked and then they go to the ER.

Single-payer, or Socialized medicine, would not stop that!

Can we stop saying single-payer? Do we always have to disguise the true intent? AKA Affordable Care Act. Gimme a break!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 16, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
History has proven that the recent health care system for America , the so-called free market system , didn't work and was failing horribly...Those that ignore history and reality are doomed to repeat the same failures..Some call this insanity repeating the same mistakes over and over while expecting different results...The morons that want to cling to the old broken system need to stfu and keep their dangerous right-wing jibberish under wraps...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 16, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
Here's a list of reasonable solutions from someone that knows the field.

http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Ben_Carson_Health_Care.htm
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 16, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
History has proven that the recent health care system for America , the so-called free market system , didn't work and was failing horribly.

Do you think that just spouting sh#t like this makes it true? Prolly not surprising since you think everything Obama tells you is true.

A little boy is now recovering from Leukemia. He wasn't treated in Venezuela or Finland either.

Breast cancer is now highly survivable.

We suck as a country, huh?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 16, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
"Can we stop saying single-payer? Do we always have to disguise the true intent? AKA Affordable Care Act. "


Damn right that's the true intent. Only a moron would believe that the shithole ACA was the intended end product of this effort.

Obama's primary mistake was to believe that the GOP would make any effort other than sabotage to try and fix the healthcare system in this country.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 16, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
So the ACA is the GOP's fault? How?

EDIT: Shiloh, I know this. Just stating that we aren't basket cases in Heath treatment. Far from it.
sempervirens

climber
Nov 16, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
Could we have a government provided system for all AND private providers for those who could afford pay for it? What if the gov. system regulated prices and/or negotiated prices.

The providers who opt out of taking gov.-funded patients could compete for the high-paying customers. Those providers could charge according to the market. And patients who choose to go to them would be responsible to pay for services themselves. Those patients would still be funding the gov. system through taxation, and the conservatives would cry foul. Let 'em cry, because right now the majority of us are crying foul. If my hypothetical system improved the situation for the majority then democracy might be working.

I realize there are a nearly infinite number of variables and details to work out. My point is that I'd like to hear this type of discussion rather than the nonsensical delusions about a capitalist system or socialist system that doesn't even exist.

Hmm, the discussion has elevated a bit while I typed. Cool. Even Bluering comes near to making sense.

Blue, stick to the topic and leave off the rhetoric. Saying we can improve is not saying our "country sucks".
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 16, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
"So the ACA is the GOP's fault? How?"

The ACA is a result of a weak-spined, capitulating, naive Democratic POTUS against the 'we don't give a sh#t about healthcare' GOP who wouldn't do a goddam thing to address the problem at any time, in any way, shape or form.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 16, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
Could we have a government provided system for all AND private providers for those who could afford pay for it? What if the gov. system regulated prices and/or negotiated prices.

The providers who opt out of taking gov.-funded patients could compete for the high-paying customers. Those providers could charge according to the market. And patients who choose to go to them would be responsible to pay for services themselves. Those patients would still be funding the gov. system through taxation, and the conservatives would cry foul. Let 'em cry, because right now the majority of us are crying foul. If my hypothetical system improved the situation for the majority then democracy might be working.

I realize there are a nearly infinite number of variables and details to work out. My point is that I'd like to hear this type of discussion rather than the nonsensical delusions about a capitalist system or socialist system that doesn't even exist.

I think that kinda like what I outlined for Donini above.

EDIT:
The ACA is a result of a weak-spined, capitulating, naive Democratic POTUS against the 'we don't give a sh#t about healthcare' GOP who wouldn't do a goddam thing to address the problem at any time, in any way, shape or form.

So the GOP made the US House and Senate overwhelmingly vote for this POS on purely partisan lines. No Repub voted for it.

And the prez signed what he could have vetoed for a restart.

Keep making excuses.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 16, 2013 - 02:26pm PT
Yes, should!!!!

And could have before the republitard machine ruined everything starting with an actor named Ronald Reagan…


But American exceptionalism is no longer fits the reality….
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 16, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
Bullshit, this 'isn't the GOP's fault'.

If they had any kind of willingness (and historically-demonstrated effort!) to address this issue, a better solution could have been crafted than the ACA abortion.

We needed an LBJ-style to address the Repug fascists on this issue, not a weak-kneed liberal approach. Obama gets props for intent, but that's as far as it goes in my book.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
Don't outline for me bluering, climb with me.....isn't that what ST is all about? Ha, ha, ha
Snowing here today but good weather in IC starting Monday.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 16, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
One of these days, Jim. I'm a family man now so the road-trips are harder to pull off. When my son gets older, or summer vacation, it will be a lot easier.

He loves camping, so it would not be hard when the time avails itself.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Nov 16, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
Damn right that's the true intent. Only a moron would believe that the shithole ACA was the intended end product of this effort.

So the President and the supporters of this impending disaster have been, and are continuing, to deceive and mislead voters , and the public in general.

The American people in poll after poll have registered what their thoughts are on the proposal for a national healthcare system run by the fools and charlatans in Washington: they are opposed to it.
Despite the awful shortcomings of our present system , people are intuitive enough and smart enough to realize the prospects and implications of a federal government control of something as important and as intimate to personal well-being as health . Not only would it be an unqualified disaster from a merely organizational standpoint (as the roll-out of the idiotic web site fully illustrated) but it would be an affront to basic freedom and self-determination.

This is why government run health care of whatever type must be based upon mandatory participation, threats,coercion, and fines ---because people will not want any part of it when it is fully understood how it works, and why it works. Without people to feed it, it cannot function. With people exercising autonomous freedom of choice they will eventually choose against it.

Under this deceptive new law-- politically based as it was ,on a series of public lies ---and it's intended incremental goal of a "single payer" system ---all pertinent decisions about an individual's health care ---will be ultimately determined and outlined and mandated by toady bureaucrats and their disgusting politician overlords. Think about that for a minute.

The health care of the American people will effectively , with all intents and purposes, be under the Machiavellian whims and diktat of a political system that is by it's very nature, as anyone with half a brain can see,inherently replete with lies, manipulations, propaganda , deceptive intentions, and influence peddling.(We are beginning to see that already with the numerous crony waivers that Obama has extended, including allowing Washington politicians and their lackeys a total exemption)

A new player has entered the equation. One in which, as vulnerable individuals , Americans have no control over--- as they once had over the insurance plan of their own choice, the doctor of their own choice, the hospital or care facility of their own choice.

The day the government is in total charge of health care is the day that individual freedom and self-determination, essential to a free people , will be dealt a mortal blow.

I said this earlier on this thread and it bares repeating and extending: The attempt to put health care under the complete control of the Federal Government is not an altruistic project intended to deliver superior health care to Americans---it is nothing less than a master stroke of political power designed to extend the role and predominance of the government in people's lives by an elitist bunch of arrogant, self-important narcissists who derive their ego fulfillment in life by controlling and manipulating others.





apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 16, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
"So the President and the supporters of this impending disaster have been, and are continuing, to deceive and mislead voters..."

To the extent that you can precisely apply this same phrase to what your president did to get us into two unnecessary wars that cost thousands of lives and trillion$, yes, that's probably true.

Difference is...and it's a big difference...is that in this case, the political strategizing is focussed on a domestic issue that has affected millions of Americans for decades...

...and as far as I know, not a single person has died due to this political process.

Jeebus...what an oversimplified, moronic position you hold.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
Nov 16, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
well, another difference is that i admire people who have become rich (as long as they do it legally) including the hedge fund managers and venture capitalists who risk the funds and capital that allow entrepreneurs to build cool stuff and employ lots of people

Many of the wealthy (probably all) take way more than they ever "give".

"Take", for example, the case of Mitt Romney. Whilst living in and making tons of money in the United States, he sheltered his income off-shore. Then accepted amnesty for his dirty dealings.

Just how much time did he spend in the military contributing to the defense of the country which allows him to take so much.

So too, most of the rest. What is their fair proportionate share for the benefits they obtain?

BTW, those jerks don't risk anything.

zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
Nov 16, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
Oh yeah

sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Nov 16, 2013 - 07:03pm PT
I saw a sign in a front yard today which read: We don't need need Obamacare, we need Godcare!!!
What exactly is that supposed to mean?
Bharata

Mountain climber
Pune
Nov 16, 2013 - 07:12pm PT
How does jghedge become this much of a bully? To increase the misery of
the poor by making more poor and he gets happy.

Credit: Bharata



sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Nov 16, 2013 - 07:12pm PT
I'm going to assume that those ethereal beings will be providing health care then? Or instantaneous healing? Can I get some of that? I got all kinds of things an ethereal being can fix. F*#k I am confused....
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Nov 16, 2013 - 07:14pm PT
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 16, 2013 - 07:14pm PT
bharata = corniss chopper?
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Nov 16, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
cornhole chomper?
Bharata

Mountain climber
Pune
Nov 16, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
What? See that apogee also favors Kali. Destruction is his friend.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 16, 2013 - 07:21pm PT
bharata = corniss chopper?

I don't know, Apogee

seems doubtful as Corniss only knew to paste pictures

whereas Bharata knows how to add text in addition
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 16, 2013 - 07:21pm PT
Very similar writing style & tendency to post graphics that look like they were created by a 5th grade computer student.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Nov 16, 2013 - 07:37pm PT
Free?

The United Socialist States

That's certainly what Obama wants...

That's President Obama. Come on cragman, how about some simple respect? Its still President Bush to me even though the man is a complete moron. :D

DMT
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 16, 2013 - 07:39pm PT
Health care is not a "right" in America. See the U.S. Constitution.

But, like education, health care should be provided by a civilized society.

Ergo, the United States is not a civilized society.

Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 16, 2013 - 07:44pm PT
What's wrong with socialism?

If we are a "free" nation, then can we not chose whatever path we desire, including socialism? Just because the Soviet Empire screwed the pooch in regards to socialism doesn't mean that have to follow their example. Can we not blend the best of capitalism and the best of socialism to create caring, productive society for everyone?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Nov 16, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
Hahahahaha

Moron.

Borderline sociopath.
Attracted to politics because it allows him to "hurt" and dominate others.

The rest of you are just deranged , brain-damaged , perverse baby boomers who are more or less permanently disfigured by the historical era you grew up in.
(With the notable exception of this " arson" character. Who must enjoy setting intentional fires.)

Enjoy your time in the sun---it is fleeting.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Nov 16, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
You're correct

Seek help.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 16, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
I always gave most of you the benefit of the doubt, just dyed in the wool Dems. But after reading some of this bullshit you're spouting, it's apparent that you've made my case for me. You're Socialists and outright Commies!

You want gov't to handle everything! Are you crazy?

You think gov't can better manage anything? The only reason the military works is because of strict hierarchical standards. The rest of the gov't ist kaput!

EDIT:
The rest of you are just deranged , brain-damaged , perverse baby boomers who are more or less permanently disfigured by the historical era you grew up in.

Who's the noob, I like him...
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 16, 2013 - 08:26pm PT

pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 16, 2013 - 08:28pm PT
I always gave most of you the benefit of the doubt, just dyed in the wool Dems. But after reading some of this bullshit you're spouting, it's apparent that you've made my case for me. You're Socialists and outright Commies!
Credit: pyro

bluey ur right but u forgot to add the drum circle into the picture!
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Nov 16, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
ACA is great for poor people. It completly sucks for the just getting by working class. I will have to pay a rather hefty monthly premium that I can not afford for a plan with huge deductables and co pays. The bronz plan Works out to about 12+K a year if I actually got hurt or real sick. The way I see it I allready pay pleanty of taxes! Use my tax dollars to provide us with real universal health care instead of pissing it all away on lawmakers salerys and bennifits as well as invasions, meddeling and nation building. Don't hit me with a $3200 tax for a health plan that dosen,t cover sh#t and will cost me an additional 9K if I actually need care.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 16, 2013 - 08:37pm PT
"What's wrong with socialism?"

"depends on how honest those casually throwing the word are"


"You're Socialists and outright Commies!"


Does that answer your question, SLR?
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 16, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
Credit: pyro
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 16, 2013 - 08:41pm PT
tradman...i'm with you but the rich are tapped out and if you don't believe them they will tell you so...so the middle class needs to give a little more...
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 16, 2013 - 08:41pm PT
Credit: pyro
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 16, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
Credit: pyro
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 16, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 16, 2013 - 08:47pm PT


Credit: locker
...


RyanD

climber
Squamish
Nov 16, 2013 - 08:49pm PT
^^^^^
Yes!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 16, 2013 - 08:53pm PT
ACA is great for poor people. It completly sucks for the just getting by working class. I will have to pay a rather hefty monthly premium that I can not afford for a plan with huge deductables and co pays. The bronz plan Works out to about 12+K a year if I actually got hurt or real sick. The way I see it I allready pay pleanty of taxes! Use my tax dollars to provide us with real universal health care instead of pissing it all away on lawmakers salerys and bennifits as well as invasions, meddeling and nation building. Don't hit me with a $3200 tax for a health plan that dosen,t cover sh#t and will cost me an additional 9K if I actually need care.

Welcome to Communism. Destroy the middle class and steal the welath of the 'rich' in the guise of 'helping the poor'.

You people need to pick up a history book and understand what's happening.

Europe is even waking up to this, they are becoming more nationalistic and fiscally prudent as we speak.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 16, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
Credit: pyro
check out the first episode locker it's rad!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 16, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
Did you read this part, blue?:

"Use my tax dollars to provide us with real universal health care instead of pissing it all away on lawmakers salerys and bennifits as well as invasions, meddeling and nation building"

You must have cherry-picked that post for the stuff that supports your paranoid Communist-invasion-view of the world, and skipped right past this statement...

Whatcha drinkin' tonight?

I've started out with a Fat Tire- not my favorite, but a friend left a few in my fridge. Gonna bump my way up to a Wassail later, and maybe a nice scotch for dessert.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 16, 2013 - 09:15pm PT
Credit: pyro
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 16, 2013 - 09:15pm PT
donini you had better get the drum circle stated
Credit: pyro
eyes of a mamba

Trad climber
seaside
Nov 16, 2013 - 09:25pm PT
National news (CBS or whoever ) a voter living in Virginia who along with her husband received their healthcare through Medicare voted for the republican candidate for governor to save her grandchildren from the affordable care act. She did not seem to realize she was voting to cut her grandchildren off from a similar structure that she was benefiting from. To much partition-ship, politicians and their constituents seemed more devoted to their dogma then finding a workable solution. the american version of the Taliban.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 16, 2013 - 09:34pm PT
apogee, I'm drinking Maker's Mark tonight. And we're prolly not too far off on our solutions. Just don't bring up the 'single payer' bullshit!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 16, 2013 - 09:35pm PT


Students at Bowie find out the student health insurance plan has been canceled.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 16, 2013 - 09:41pm PT
Welcome to Communism. Destroy the middle class and steal the welath of the 'rich' in the guise of 'helping the poor'.

The moment you conflate socialized healthcare with communism, you have completely lost the argument.

Curt
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
Yes....that would imply that every first world industrialized country was communist.
sullly

Trad climber
Nov 16, 2013 - 09:48pm PT
Thanks for the laugh, Pyro. Hip theme song took me back to my shag carpeted family dwelling. We also watched the one below.
photo not found
Missing photo ID#330606
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 16, 2013 - 09:52pm PT
Bluering....Communism is dead now that Mickey Dee's has opened a franchise in Red Square...Free happy meals for the middle class...!
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 16, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that providers are simply not going to take these plans
Credit: pyro
thank's sullyman
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Nov 16, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
we pay a ton of taxes. What on earth is so terrible about takeing our taxes and putting it twords our health care instaed of pissing it away on bombs.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 16, 2013 - 10:41pm PT
Read tradman's comments closely, blue & the rest of you Repugs...

He may be agreeing with you that the ACA is a disaster, but he's not keen on seeing tax dollar$ going towards the dumbass shite you guys support, either.

Confusing, ain't it?
sullly

Trad climber
Nov 16, 2013 - 11:45pm PT
^^^^ "Every time you break the seal on that liquor bottle, that's a Government seal that you're breaking! Oh, I say and I say it again, ya been had! Ya been took! Ya been hoodwinked! Bamboozled! Led astray! Run amok! This is what He does."

Malcolm X
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Nov 17, 2013 - 08:18am PT
rsin.. you can't buy alcohol with food stamps FYI.
WTF

climber
Nov 17, 2013 - 08:22am PT
Correct ^^^^^

But you can get all the food and liquor you want with a gun.

justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Nov 17, 2013 - 08:56am PT
^^^Guns loaded with all the excess bullets that have been made... since you can't buy alcohol with food stamps? Good point...Got it! ;)
dirtbag

climber
Nov 17, 2013 - 09:55am PT

Europe is even waking up to this, they are becoming more nationalistic and fiscally prudent as we speak.


How's that working for Britain?
dirtbag

climber
Nov 17, 2013 - 09:57am PT
J. Shiloh wrote:

It might be interesting to hear from people who do NOT feel that basic health care is a fundamental right within a civilized society. If you are one such person who does not feel that everyone is so entitled, can you tell us why? Do you feel education is a basic right? What about police protection? What about public roads? Also in your argument do not use extremes like a full set of dental implants for the patient who has "meth mouth" (abused methamphetamine and rotted out his teeth). We are talking about treating that patient's dental pain with antibiotics and analgesics along with someplace where he can go to extract the rotten teeth still in his jaw.

If you do not feel it is a basic right in a civilized society, please tell us why?


Hi Lois.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 17, 2013 - 09:58am PT
The exceptional thing about America is that we already have plenty of socialism.

And it is AWESOME!

Socialism pays for:

Credit: Dave Kos
International Airfare

Credit: Dave Kos
Snokerling

Credit: Dave Kos
A lovely wait staff at the 24/7 open bar!

Remember folks, FREEDOM ISN'T FREE!

But unfortunately I hear that some kid in Compton is getting a flu shot, and he doesn't have to pay for it!

Party's over, for now, TIME FOR OUTRAGE!!!!!!11111

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 17, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
I am saddened when idiots try to tell me communism is dead, or that socialism is actually really awesome.

Some cite the death of communism as Russia's re-emergance, but they forget North Korea and Venezuela.

Which brings me to my point. That is, communism is never instituted, it creeps in. This is what is happening in Venezuela.

Largo? Got comments on this?

We are creeping into socialism in this country. We'll see what happens.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 17, 2013 - 03:36pm PT
That is, communism is never instituted, it creeps in.


Yeah, that's totally true when one ignores the examples of Russia and China and Eastern Europe and North Korea and Cuba, and ...
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Nov 17, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
Today's lesson in civics:

Communism comes in when the haves screw the have knotts one time to many, usually at the end of a sword or with a bullet. It is economic system.

Socialism comes in when the haves decide to share, with the have knotts. It is knott an economic system. It might better be called 'sharing.'

Facism is a populist with a gun. They do not restrict themselves to one particular economic system. It is not a economic system either. Its a criminal enterprise.

Capitalism is an economic system not a religion. The greedy and the selfish have confused this with a religion. Its sad really.

Worshiping any -ism is a hand shake with the money changers.

DMT
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 17, 2013 - 04:52pm PT
Large hippie drum circle just drank kool aid
Credit: pyro
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 17, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
hurry get over here quick rsin is going into Kool-Aid pasta shock
drum circle was too much for it
Credit: pyro
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 17, 2013 - 05:10pm PT

Yeah, that's totally true when one ignores the examples of Russia and China and Eastern Europe and North Korea and Cuba, and ...

Nope. It is always introduced as Socialism for the people's good!

EDIT:
venesuala has turned itself around brilliantly in the last 15 years under the direction of socialist not sold out to blueeys pride and joy

nowhere on the globe matches their achievements in the reduction of poverty and the advancement of education and healthcare

no wonder the capitalists are pissed...

Do you follow geo-politics? Venezuela is seizing private businesses by the gov't! They are actually turning from communism into a fascist State.

Look it up!
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 17, 2013 - 05:18pm PT
Venezuela is still part of opec!
Credit: pyro
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 17, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
Venezuela is still part of opec!


And I hear they're still part of South America, so what????

And BTW, I had an awesome Emergency+4 Lunchbox when I was a lad. It was one of my fav's.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 17, 2013 - 05:48pm PT


Let's hear a compelling counterargument to Dinish.




Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 17, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
Hey pyro,

I thought it was the coolest thing when they used the defibrillator on that show.

Of course we used to play paramedic and mimic that. What kid didn't do that?
Pcutler

climber
Iowa
Nov 17, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
My old man always taught me that the good lord saw fit to give you two things for free. Air and water. Everything else in life that you want you'd better go and get yourself.

Nothing is free in the world - including health care. If you want it you'd better be willing to work for it.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 17, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
Do you follow geo-politics? Venezuela is seizing private businesses by the gov't! They are actually turning from communism into a fascist State.

What a shock. Probably because there is little if any difference between the two

Curt
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
Your old man was wrong. 1 out of every 8 people on the planet do not have access to safe and clean drinking water...free or not. 99% of all fatalities from drinking water occur in the third world.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 17, 2013 - 06:10pm PT


Curt...

Just curious...

Why do you sign "Curt"???...

You're name's right next to your post...

???...



As a formality of sorts???...






signed,

locker (But I figure you already know that)...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 17, 2013 - 06:13pm PT
My old man always taught me that the good lord saw fit to give you two things for free. Air and water. Everything else in life that you want you'd better go and get yourself.

Nothing is free in the world - including health care. If you want it you'd better be willing to work for it.


Sometimes we have to look back in history to see how ours will unfold. Yer old man was wise.

edit;
Your old man was wrong. 1 out of every 8 people on the planet do not have access to safe and clean drinking water...free or not. 99% of all fatalities from drinking water occur in the third world.

Hey Jim, what would fix that problem? Who is responsible for fixing it? What caused that problem?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 17, 2013 - 07:32pm PT
You mean,better than the one he himself inadvertently presents?

No need.

Where is Dinesh wrong?
WTF

climber
Nov 17, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
If Obama gave me free gas I could buy more health insurance.

In all reality do you really think this law is anything but a new way to get all those guys who gave Obama a sh#t load of money to be president a new way to get even richer.

Come on really. You people are so stupid. Wake up.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 17, 2013 - 07:53pm PT
Actually i think obama has given MANY "free gas" of the intestinal variety...
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 17, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
Curt...

Just curious...

Why do you sign "Curt"???...

You're name's right next to your post...

???...

Hey Locker,

Good question.

Curt
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 17, 2013 - 08:08pm PT
we should have no public education, no public police and fire services and no public roads - to but name a few. No public libraries, either. That is the natural conclusion to what you are putting forth.




TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 17, 2013 - 08:16pm PT
It does not sound to me as though they brought in on consult anyone who particularly knows his ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to healthcare.

They are "progressives" and they went to Harvard or Yale.

(and never were contaminated by having a real productive job)

Who are you to question their judgement?
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 17, 2013 - 08:20pm PT


Credit: locker
...


locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 17, 2013 - 08:29pm PT

Don't you know???...

EVERYONE on ST...

KNOWS...


You're just the NEWEST "Know it all"...

Welcome aboard!!!...




LOL!!!...

;-)

locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 17, 2013 - 08:35pm PT

"are literally talking through their ass."...




Really???...



























































Literally???...























































COOL!!!...



locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 17, 2013 - 08:39pm PT


;-)

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Nov 17, 2013 - 09:21pm PT
Water has never ever been free. Not in the history of the world.

DMT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 17, 2013 - 09:21pm PT
he Atlantic reports that in practice, this means that a married couple in New York making more than a combined $62,040 gets no subsidies from Obamacare. But two people who live together without getting married? They can make up to a combined $91,920 and still get subsidies from the government.

The government has a clear and compelling interest in promoting marriage: Virtually all of the research shows that stable marriages increase economic output, reduce poverty, shrink income inequality, lower rates of incarceration and drug use, and spur the creation of future taxpayers (aka babies). The tax code already discriminates against the government's interest by providing an economic incentive for couples to choose cohabitation over marriage. Now Obamacare has come along to magnify the discrimination.

It's not clear whether this perversity is accidental or by design. But it's yet another line item in the argument against what is clearly the most catastrophic piece of legislation in modern American history

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/penalty-marriage-obamacare_767194.html
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 17, 2013 - 09:27pm PT
If you - or anyone else - opposes public healthcare, why are you not also opposing public education? Public roads? Public police services? On what basis do you make this distinction? What is your criteria. Using your logic, we should not pay to send poor people's children to public schools? Actually that is a rather good question given some of the outcomes of various schools but such is another issue altogether issue having nothing to do with what we are addressing, at hand.

What if someone never worked a day in his life but he goes to the library and checks out a book? He did not pay one cent for that book yet he read it cover to cover? Have you been violated? Blue, TGT, others? Why are you OK with public education and public police protection but you are NOT OK with public healthcare. On what basis do you make the distinction?


Ever read the Constitution? I know many of you want to throw it away, but it's still the defining legal document that dictates how our gov't operates.

The Federal Government is tasked with few things in the Constitution. Among those are a military, a postal service, and regulation of the States and commerce.

Since when did the Fed have the authority to mandate that a person buy something from the State or the Fed? And fine them when they refused!

Tyranny. Pure and simple.

EDIT:
Water has never ever been free. Not in the history of the world.

DMT

Explain.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 17, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
They don't know the difference between a local school board, county or city government and a Washington bureaucrat.

Local control is anathema.

Rule by a central plutocracy?

sacred.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 17, 2013 - 09:38pm PT
People are f*#king stupid and want to govern with emotion and how they 'feel' about a certain issue. There is no concern for the rule of law and the Constitution.

People are f*#king stupid!
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 17, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
Since when did the Fed have the authority to mandate that a person buy something from the State or the Fed?


I have no idea what law you are talking about, but ACA doesn't require anybody buy anything from the "State or Fed."

The first time the federal government mandated that private citizens buy something from the commercial market was 1792. Some of those tyrants we call "the founding fathers" voted for these laws. When they signed it they were all dressed up like your boy Glenn Beck: wig, waistcoat, long jacket, and knickers. So it was all legit.

What law was this? If you gave an actual f*#k about America and weren't so hysterical about some mythical welfare niggers getting some tiny portion of your paycheck you'd already know or at least take the time to look it up.

And when you do find it, keep googling until you find some weak rationalization as to why it doesn't count when George Washington does it. Please post this response so we can remain educated. I'm sure it will be from a credible source.


dirtbag

climber
Nov 17, 2013 - 09:52pm PT
blue:

people are not "f*#king stupid" albeit some may be so. We are not talking about "feeling" anything. We are talking about delineating what are your criteria for that which falls in the public realm. There is nothing "stupid" - f*#king or otherwise - about this question. It is simply asking you to define your criteria.

Hi Lois.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 17, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
blue:

people are not "f*#king stupid" albeit some may be so. We are not talking about "feeling" anything. We are talking about delineating what are your criteria for that which falls in the public realm. There is nothing "stupid" - f*#king or otherwise - about this question. It is simply asking you to define your criteria.


Yes, people (some) are indeed stupid. There is clear delineation in th Constitution on spending. It is CORRUPTED!

EDIT:

I have no idea what law you are talking about, but ACA doesn't require anybody buy anything from the "State or Fed."

The first time the federal government mandated that private citizens buy something from the commercial market was 1792. Some of those tyrants we call "the founding fathers" voted for these laws. When they signed it they were all dressed up like your boy Glenn Beck: wig, waistcoat, long jacket, and knickers. So it was all legit.

What law was this? If you gave an actual f*#k about America and weren't so hysterical about some mythical welfare niggers getting some tiny portion of your paycheck you'd already know or at least take the time to look it up.

And when you do find it, keep googling until you find some weak rationalization as to why it doesn't count when George Washington does it. Please post this response so we can remain educated. I'm sure it will be from a credible source.

Yer a douche. Let me break this down for your simple mind...hold on, I need another drink for this.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Nov 17, 2013 - 09:58pm PT
Defending selfishness has never read so obviously.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Nov 17, 2013 - 09:58pm PT
Blu, the Constitution provides for amendments and provisions that anticipate changing realities...

... I wish the uber-conservatives got this simple truth.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 17, 2013 - 10:09pm PT
Healthcare is NOT a right! It's a system of paying for your future hospitalization. It is a system of ensuring your health.

If you do not take care of yourself, is it I who is to pay?

In 1st world countries we understand this shit! That is why we strove to be better. Those that fall behind will be cared for, that is also our awesomeness.

But to drag down the producers, that is unlawful and derelict.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Nov 17, 2013 - 10:12pm PT
In 1st world countries we understand this shit!

Yea, that's why we don't have single payer though 1st world countries do, eh?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 17, 2013 - 10:16pm PT
Yea, that's why we don't have single payer though 1st world countries do, eh?

Well, yer real smart, huh? Ever wonder why the US is the #1 economy in the world and not Venezuela?

Ever wonder why China tries to model her Shitstorm after the US model? Because it sucks? The Chiners know what's up.

EDIT: Oh and how many foreign losers come here for care? Europe, Canada, Cuba...
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2013 - 10:17pm PT
Right Todd....regarding other first world countries we are an exception but certainly not exceptional in this area.....pathetic might be a better word.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 17, 2013 - 10:22pm PT
Right Todd....regarding other first world countries we are an exception but certainly not exceptional in this area.....pathetic might be a better word.


Can we start denying foreigners healthcare now? Because we suck so much?

Can we just divert flights to Britain, Canada, or Venezuela? I hear they're awesome with their care!

EDIT:
Blue,


Perhaps it would be more helpful in understanding your position if instead of telling us all how stupid we are, you could instead share with us how you define the criteria which underlie the statements you make.


I already made my point upthread to Donini!!!!! Pay..f*#king...attention!!!
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 17, 2013 - 10:24pm PT
Well, yer real smart, huh? Ever wonder why the US is the #1 economy in the world and not Venezuela?

Is that really the most important criteria? Why is the US nowhere near the top of the list of countries with the highest standard of living, most satisfied (happiest) citizens, or overall quality of healthcare. Perhaps your priorities are a little whacked.

Curt
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 17, 2013 - 10:27pm PT
Is that really the most important criteria? Why is the US nowhere near the top of the list of countries with the highest standard of living, most satisfied (happiest) citizens, or overall quality of healthcare. Perhaps your priorities are a little whacked.

Curt

Don't you find that question weird? Like it was intended to draw a certain answer?
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 17, 2013 - 10:31pm PT
Curt

Don't you find that question weird? Like it was intended to draw a certain answer?

It's just that you insist on using Venezuela as your poster-child example of "socialism" instead of Denmark, Sweden or a number of other socialized democratic countries where the comparison would look quite different. That's all.

Curt
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 17, 2013 - 10:33pm PT
I did not think that comment to Donini answered the question I posed. Would you mind stating it again here. What is your criteria for determining what is and what is not appropriately in the public domain?

WTF are you talking about? Did we change topics?

Everything public, is public!
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Nov 17, 2013 - 10:34pm PT
Blu, the economy is doing great because it bleeds away the health and wages of a significant portion of its population to feed it growth.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Nov 17, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
Everything public, is public!

Is the general welfare of the population, public?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 17, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
It's just that you insist on using Venezuela as your poster-child example of "socialism" instead of Denmark, Sweden or a number of other socialized democratic countries where the comparison would look quite different. That's all.

Curt

I brought this up earlier, but watch Northern Europe in the future. They are changing. Socialism has rotted them and they know it and feel it.

Just sayin'....
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 17, 2013 - 10:37pm PT
dix look's like donini is the leader of these drum circle hippies.
Credit: pyro
in england ur put on a list.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 17, 2013 - 10:42pm PT
I brought this up earlier, but watch Northern Europe in the future. They are changing. Socialism has rotted them and they know it and feel it.

Just sayin'....

It's true that some Northern European countries are running budget deficits--but so are we. I fail to see how spending 9% of GDP on healthcare (as they do) as opposed to 18% (as we do) is a factor contributing to their relative budget problems.

Curt
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 17, 2013 - 10:44pm PT
Blue,

I pose the concept that healthcare is appropriately something which should l fall in the public domain - the same category as police protection, education, public roads, etc. I infer that you disagree. It would seem (from your rather colorful language) that you do not feel universal health care is appropriately in this realm. So again I ask you - what is your criteria for making this determination?

Have you read the Constitution AND the Bill Of Rights?

Stop telling mr about police and fire-dep'ts and f*#king ambulances! That is ALL a function of the State, not the Federal gov't!

The Federal Gov't has only very small Constitutional duties. Healthcare IS NOT ONE OF THEm!!!

If the States CHOOSE to do that, that is their prerogative. They are not obliged.

Do you understand that the Fed is not tasked with your Health Insurance?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:00pm PT
Where does the Federal Government get its power from?
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:01pm PT
Bluering, do you recognize this sentence?

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general WELFARE, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America
.

wel·fare (wlfâr)
n.
1.
a. Health, happiness, and good fortune; well-being.

You see the first word used to define welfare?

Isn't promoting the general welfare synonymous with providing healthcare, mas o menos?

I mean it doesn't come right out an say it, but your position that the Constitution makes no mention of the govt being involved in healthcare can only be seen with blinders on.


Answer the guy's question, Blue. Why does healthcare not meet your criteria for govt services? Or why do the services that govt DOES supply meet them, but health care don't?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
F*#k you!

The answer is that you fail to see my point that FED has no business in the education, energy, or healthcare laws. They can regulate, but THEY CANNOT MANDATE!!!!

Understand?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
Warbler,

Do you see a distinction between "promote" and "provide" ?
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:03pm PT
I do understand
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:03pm PT
Now, promote or provide has turned into force and coercion.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:04pm PT
Promote | Define Promote at Dictionary.com
dictionary.reference.com/browse/promote‎
to help or encourage to exist or flourish; further: to promote world peace.

The ACA doesn't provide, it attempts to promote health care (AKA general welfare) for all.

If republicons, as servants to the insurance industry, weren't fighting it every step of the way, it would be working a whole lot better.



pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:06pm PT
donini please nuke this thread the kool aid has got us all f*#kd up!
Credit: pyro
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
I like how Chaz comes into the tent, and says everything i meant, but spewed with salty language....

Thanks Chaz. You Asshole....hehe....Emergency+4!
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
The answer is that you fail to see my point that FED has no business in the education, energy, or healthcare laws. They can regulate, but THEY (C)ANNOT MANDATE!!!!

Well, first of all, the U.S. Departments of Education, Energy, and Health and Human Services would probably disagree. That takes care of the Executive branch of government. So too would the Senate Committee on Energy & Natural Resources and the House Subcommittee on Energy & Mineral Resources--just to mention two Congressional Committees with oversight over Federal energy policy. The courts also disagree with you. That's three strikes. You're out.

Curt
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:14pm PT
Warbler writes:

"The ACA doesn't provide, it attempts to promote health care for all."



Promotes by restricting? Orwell would remind you he was right - just thirty years ahead.

Forcing is not promoting. Restricting free choice is not promoting anything.

We're losing the language here.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:20pm PT
Do you see a distinction between "promote" and "provide" ?

I can't think of any better way to promote the general welfare than to provide for the health of the people.




... hey, I said "the people!"

I'm talkin' like I'm all colonial and shit!



pyro: Got any defibrillator pics? That would be cool.



The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:22pm PT
Forcing is not promoting.

Chaz,

You are forced to register your car, forced to insure your car, forced to wear a seat belt, forced to stop at red lights, forced to pay taxes, forced to follow building codes, forced to drive the speed limit, forced to refrain from murdering people. These things all promote the general welfare.

Capiche?


Why is health insurance so different?



bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:24pm PT
Well, first of all, the U.S. Departments of Education, Energy, and Health and Human Services would probably disagree. That takes care of the Executive branch of government. So too would the Senate Committee on Energy & Natural Resources and the House Subcommittee on Energy & Mineral Resources--just to mention two Congressional Committees with oversight over Federal energy policy. The courts also disagree with you. That's three strikes. You're out.

Curt

Re-read your Constitution, stupid! And this is why I reiterate this.

We have become victims of the Fed! They declare their authority. Nobody challenges them.

And they continue to expand their powers. Energy Dept, EPA, Education, et. al.

EDIT:
Chaz,

You are forced to register your car, forced to insure your car, forced to wear a seat belt, forced to stop at red lights, forced to pay taxes, forced to follow building codes, forced to drive the speed limit, forced to refrain from murdering people. These things all promote the general welfare.

Capiche?


Why is health insurance so different?

State and Fed are different, bro. And so is the CHOICE to drive. Why does the Federal Gov't have to pay for your healthcare? Why? Do they pay for your car? Your home? WHy Healthcare?
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:24pm PT
Restricting free choice is not promoting anything.

Yeah, sure.

And restricting people from killing and stealing is not promoting anything either.

Chaz is playing passive his passive-aggressive semantic game again!


Can't play tonight, gonna watch the Simpsons with the kids.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
Bluey the Constitution is an uneven work composed by flawed men.....too many church goers and slave owners in their ranks.

Damn....just bit my tongue, thought it was in my cheek.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
So if we decide it's a good idea to stop at the red lights and go on the green ones, then there's no limit to what Federal Government can force Americans to do?

I don't quite follow your argument.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
All these commerce clause arguments were conclusively resolved many, many decades ago. The limited federal power people lost. What is or is not prudent is one thing, but saying the likes of the EPA is not permitted by the constitution is just right wing radio blather.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:34pm PT

Bluey the Constitution is an uneven work composed by flawed men.....too many church goers and slave owners in their ranks.


It's a perfect document. It's just unworthy of the filth today in Congress, and the streets. (and on the rocks)
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:34pm PT
Why does the Federal Gov't have to pay for your healthcare? Why?


Why do they pay for Medicaid, Medicare, the VA? Why?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:37pm PT
I must have a "flaw" in my moral compass.

EDIT:


Why do they pay for Medicaid, Medicare, the VA? Why?


So why the new 'program'????
skywalker

climber
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:39pm PT
"I can't think of any better way to promote the general welfare than to provide for the health of the people."

I am not arguing with you Kos but Allen came to my class and gave this talk, its probably the most sobering first 15 minutes of a class I ever had and I now teach it every year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umFnrvcS6AQ

"Human Dilemma" is spot on.

S...
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:43pm PT
The Federal Government is the only available avenue to help out the less fortunate?

I'd say if you want bang for your buck, keep the Federal Government as far away from it as possible.

Have you been paying attention to The News over the last couple months? You want to give the Federal Government more responsibility? Especially for something important?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:45pm PT
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

The first unalienable right is Life. To secure this most important right we institute government.

In this modern world there is no better way to secure life than by access to modern comprehensive healthcare.

This is a no brainer. It can easily be argued that any legitimate governments first or close to first duties is to secure healthcare for it's citizens.

Course most of the modern world doesn't even consider this up for argument.

Werner is correct.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:45pm PT
We have always cared for the suffering that we find.

Never call me incompassionate. And I give w/o regard or compensation.

I care, but expect people to help themselves too!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:49pm PT
climbski2 writes:

"This is a no brainer. It can easily be argued that any legitimate governments first or close to first duties is to secure healthcare for it's citizens."



What if the same thing can be accomplished - probably better - without government control? Shouldn't that be the default system?
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
We have always cared for the suffering that we find.
Blue

Wrong!
They are dying, they are suffering, they are going bankrupt because our system sucks

Who is taking care of these people without money??
Your way off dude.
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
What if the same thing can be accomplished - probably better - without government control? Shouldn't that be the default system?
Chaz
NO, because the private sector runs on profit
Healthcare should Not be Profit driven.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
What if the same thing can be accomplished - probably better - without government control? Shouldn't that be the default system?

Why can government insure the folks private insurance can't?

You guys are aware of something called medicare right?

Those arguing that a private for profit corporation with a small pool of insured can do a better job providing comprehensive healthcare payments than a truly non-profit complete pool ...

well I think you are not thinking straight.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:54pm PT
What if the same thing can be done - probably better - without government control? Shouldn't that be the default system?

Some people just can't understand charity, yet they look to the gov't for a handout.

Look to God and your local Church, not the gov't. Your neighbor may be a better friend than the gov't. Wake up!!!
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:56pm PT



Some people just can't understand charity, yet they look to the gov't for a handout.

Look to God and your local Church, not the gov't. Your neighbor may be a better friend than the gov't. Wake up!!!

Oh cool you mean there are churches that will give me 100k for those medical bills?

sign me up

PRAISE THE LORD!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 17, 2013 - 11:59pm PT
Dr F writes:

"NO, because the private sector runs on profit
Healthcare should Not be Profit driven."



Profit is what encourages people to get up in the morning and go to work.

Profit is what is what causes expansion of services.

For chrissakes, profit is why supplies are inventoried.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:01am PT
I give up tonight.

Look for others to care for you, that will end well.....
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:01am PT
SO government should be a for profit system?

Blue Ring or Chaz

I ask you seriously. Do you acknowledge any purpose whatsoever for government?

Why shouldn't government administer a simple no profit insurance pool? There are many benefits of a comprehensive insurance pool. It is the best pool possible for one thing.

Second it allows a reverse monopoly. requiring competing service providers to cater to a single customer. This not only spreads the risk most efficiently it allows the customer the highest possible leverage for setting prices in their favor.

I have not seen anyone here argue for a socialist medical system. Just a single government insurance pool serviced by for profit providers.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:02am PT
Where do you live, J.Shilo?

Check the names on the hospitals. Here, we have St Mary's, LLUMC, St Bernadine's, Cedars Sinai - just to name a few. Sounds church related to me.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:14am PT
Primary care is cheap. I needed stitches in my hand earlier this year. I went to a walk-in clinic ( NOT the E.R. at the hospital. I wasn't dying ).

For four stitches, and the undivided attention of a doctor and his assistant, I was charged $110. But for the local painkiller and the stitches, the visit would have been a flat $75.

The Veteranarian charges more than that.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:26am PT
How do you keep the hospital E.R.s from filling up with people whose only problem is their kids have colds? A mandatory insurance policy carrying a $12,500 deductable won't help that.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:50am PT
Re-read your Constitution, stupid! And this is why I reiterate this.

We have become victims of the Fed! They declare their authority. Nobody challenges them.

And they continue to expand their powers. Energy Dept, EPA, Education, et. al.

I may be stupid, but at least I understand that merely reading the words contained in the Constitution is insufficient. What is and isn't constitutional has been determined by thousands of court rulings and interpretations as to its proper meaning. That is precisely how our judicial system works. Only a buffoon (Scalia?) believes they can determine constitutionality from reading the original document only.

Curt
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:56am PT
I'd like to play cards sometime with you, Curt.

And we can have the rules of the game be as fluid as your idea of the Constitution.

That way, my pair of deuces would beat your full house - just to be fair. Only a buffoon would object to that!
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 18, 2013 - 01:05am PT
I'd like to play cards sometime with you, Curt.

That doesn't surprise me. You seem to enjoy losing.

And we can have the rules of the game be as fluid as your idea of the Constitution.

Just to be clear, are you really saying that all of the Supreme Court rulings on constitutionality since the founding of our country are meaningless?

That way, my pair of deuces would beat your full house - just to be fair. Only a buffoon would object to that!

You better hope so, but as far as cogent argument goes, you're not even holding a pair.

Curt
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 18, 2013 - 01:15am PT
Dr f wrote
health care should not be profit driven
Credit: pyro


P.s. what bout AMGEN
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 18, 2013 - 01:43am PT
Credit: pyro
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 18, 2013 - 01:43am PT
somebody has to pay for the gas!
somebody has to pay for the gas!
Credit: pyro
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 18, 2013 - 01:44am PT
Credit: pyro
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 18, 2013 - 01:45am PT
Credit: pyro
Free health care lol
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 18, 2013 - 01:46am PT
Credit: pyro
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 18, 2013 - 01:48am PT
Credit: pyro
Credit: pyro
I've lost it supertopo drum circle has sucked me in cya
Degaine

climber
Nov 18, 2013 - 05:41am PT
bluering wrote (with regard to the US Constitution):
It's a perfect document. It's just unworthy of the filth today in Congress, and the streets. (and on the rocks)


Is that why it's been amended 27 times? The last amendment being ratified in 1992, and the first 10 amendments (Bill of rights) proposed just a few months after the Constitution was ratified.
Degaine

climber
Nov 18, 2013 - 05:50am PT
bluering wrote:
We have always cared for the suffering that we find.

Never call me incompassionate. And I give w/o regard or compensation.

I care, but expect people to help themselves too!


People help themselves in every first-world universal healthcare system (single payer or mixed) mentioned in this thread and the other threads on the same subject. They work and pay into the system, and then benefit from the system into which they pay.

What makes you think that the working poor aren't trying to help themselves? As I wrote in another thread, putting compassion or "doing the right thing" aside, some form universal healthcare system (single payer or mixed) makes economic and financial sense for the country. Other countries pay half to one-third the cost per capita for healthcare (France, Germany, Japan, and the list goes on) with far better overall outcomes than the US.

Do you care at all that the insurance companies and healthcare providers are bilking the American public? They have been for years to the tune of hundreds of billions if not trillions of dollars.

The irony of your ranting is that you don't seem to mine sending other people of to foreign lands to fight for and defend this country for you as part of the cost of society, yet when others on this board think that healthcare should be also be a part of that cost you jump into self-righteous "I have the moral high-ground" insult mode. So, neverservednik, when are you going to sign up for military service?
Degaine

climber
Nov 18, 2013 - 05:58am PT
Chaz wrote:
For four stitches, and the undivided attention of a doctor and his assistant, I was charged $110. But for the local painkiller and the stitches, the visit would have been a flat $75.

A GP visit in France costs 25 euros. $75 may not seem much to you, but it's three times the cost of the equivalent visit elsewhere. A basic ultrasound is 6 times more expensive in the US than in France.

For whatever reason, you, bluering, and everyone else falsely claiming that a single payer system is the end of all days, fail to pay attention to the fact that insurance companies and providers in the US are bilking you. This fraud is even more appalling when you look at overall outcomes when compared to other countries.

stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Nov 18, 2013 - 08:48am PT
Only a buffoon (Scalia?) believes they can determine constitutionality from reading the original document only.

They are the same people that think they can determine the course of evolution from reading an ancient scroll, too.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 18, 2013 - 10:04am PT
I decided to re-read the Constitution last night.

It clearly says that Chaz and bluering are wrong.

It's right there, there's no other way to interpret it. You guys are totally wrong.

The Constitution is the highest law of the land.

End of debate.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Nov 18, 2013 - 10:11am PT
For whatever reason, you, bluering, and everyone else falsely claiming that a single payer system is the end of all days, fail to pay attention to the fact that insurance companies and providers in the US are bilking you. This fraud is even more appalling when you look at overall outcomes when compared to other countries.

FACT


Summed up nicely, and impossible to refute except through mule headed ignorance.


It follows that right wingers, if they understand the facts, would prefer to spend more money to support insurance companies, and let the poor suffer without health care, than to spend less money for better care and insure the poor at the same time.

Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Nov 18, 2013 - 10:41am PT
Bluering, I think you said 85% of the people in this country are happy with their health insurance. We are not.

I'm one of those employers who has to make decisions every year about what health insurance we will offer employees and what percentage of the premium we will pay. Every year for the last 20 years or so our health insurance premiums have gone up well in excess of inflation. Some years it's been 20 plus percent. This year the increase is 9.31%.

I'm not saying the government would do a perfect job of providing health care, just that at least they wouldn't be trying to intentionally bleed us dry. Bleeding us dry is what I think the various "stakeholders" in health care are doing now. It's a parasitic relationship in which they will extract as much blood money from us as they possibly can without derailing the economy entirely and without stimulating so much political opposition that they are put out of business for good. But every year now they still suck a little more blood out of us.

I, and many others, will loudly cheer the day our current dysfunctional system of health care goes the way of the Dodo.

locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 18, 2013 - 10:44am PT


"Profit is what encourages people to get up in the morning and go to work."...


Even for the many, many, many that live "Check to check"???...(and below)

How does that work again???...




My guess is their motivation has nothing to do with profit...

Much more likely to have something to do with SURVIVAL...

Like, food, clothing, shelter, etc...

Probably NOT a lot of profit I wouldn't think...




Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Nov 18, 2013 - 10:47am PT
I've always been the most motivated about things that do not pay money.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 18, 2013 - 10:54am PT
I've always been the most motivated about things that do not pay money.

Yep, Probably why I'm not rich I guess.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Nov 18, 2013 - 11:11am PT
I've always been the most motivated about things that do not pay money.

Yep, Probably why I'm not rich I guess.

In my business experience self-made people are into making like I am into wasting it on climbing.

When no one is looking and there is time to spare... ? I go climbing.

The self-made go make some money THEN maybe go climbing.

You gotta love it. You gotta. Or you'll hate it.

DMT
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Nov 18, 2013 - 11:23am PT
Republicans are Wrong about Everything!!!

It follows that right wingers, if they understand the facts, would prefer to spend more money to support insurance companies, and let the poor suffer without health care, than to spend less money for better care and insure the poor at the same time.

The Warbler

Yes, they are so brainwashed by their fascist ideology, that they would rather spend more for less, Alot more just to blindlessly follow their Right Wide Think Tank's BS talking points.

Just hand over 100s of dollars a month to a Private Insurance Company that may or may not cover you when you actually need the coverage, and let the rest of the fools suffer. "I got mine, so I don't care about you."
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Nov 18, 2013 - 11:29am PT
The Government does things that Should Never be driven by Profit, it's called the commons.

Police: you can't have a private police force because there is no profit, if there was, the police would just become corrupt to make more profit

Fire: you can't have a private Fire Dept. because they would start fires themselves to stay in business

Roads: you can't have private roads because there would be a toll booth every F-ing mile!

education: you can't have private education because the poor would not be able to afford it, and hence get no education.

Healthcare; You can't have a private healthcare system because the doctors would just keep looking for ways to keep you sick and coming back for more visits.

HealthCare Insurance: they will just charge you more and more as they try and deny your coverage as much as they can. The CEOs of the major Health Insurance Companies are the some of the highest paid people on the Planet.

None of these things are FREE, you pay for them by Taxes, the more you earn, the more you pay, simple as that.

Your occupation Should Never be tied to healthcare, Why?, because when your really sick, you Can't work.

So if you are to sick to work, you should still get the help you need.


Most Everything else Should be Privatised,
as said by President, "the Government does not want to be in the business of building cars."


A natural balance of Socialism and Capitalism works just fine for everyone.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 18, 2013 - 11:30am PT
In my business experience self-made people are into making like I am into wasting it on climbing.

When no one is looking and there is time to spare... ? I go climbing.

The self-made go make some money THEN maybe go climbing.

You gotta love it. You gotta. Or you'll hate it.

DMT

That makes sense and for those who really love that game I say more power to them. If it it what gets them up in the morning and engaged in life.

Everyone has their thing. I do think it's ridiculous to be negative about those who love to make money. Same as I think it's as dumb for them to disparage those who dirtbag climb. Both choices are valid if done properly.

What is frustrating to me is this attitude that all government is bad and private enterprise is always a better answer to the ills of society.

These are ridiculous attitudes when taken to current extremes. While there is a solid grain of truth to it. That attitude has now become so entrenched as to be used as a scamming tool by those who do not have any public minded interest.

I really consider my self moderate to conservative in my approach to government. But I can certainly see that there are many places where government is the proper answer to various things a society requires.

I am at this point convinced that at the very least a taxpayer supported single payer system is a much better solution than our current system of providing healthcare.
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Nov 18, 2013 - 11:41am PT
The Hate for the Public sector is all driven by the Right Wing Think Tank talking points spewed out 24/7.

Being a teacher or working for the Post Office used to be a well respected job. Not any more, now they are demonised. It's an evil cult that has taken these people's brains.

The Koch Brothers and these think tanks are all about destroying the public sector for one reason only, Greed.
It's all about the billionaires paying lower taxes by shrinking the Gov. down as small as possible.

Everyone of these Republicans are just doing the Koch Brother's dirty work for them by allowing themselves to be brainwashed by their agenda of destroying America from the inside out.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 18, 2013 - 11:42am PT
Hate the game, love the player, Dr F.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Nov 18, 2013 - 11:44am PT
What is frustrating to me is this attitude that all government is bad and private enterprise is always a better answer to the ills of society.

That attitude comes from rubes. Their flim flam men love them for it though.

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Nov 18, 2013 - 11:45am PT
A natural balance of Socialism and Capitalism works just fine for everyone.

Correct. Capitalism is a pit bull that must be kept on a stout chain, lest it bite its master's head off.

DMT
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
Im hoping you dont hold your breath for the above..
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:16pm PT
Ron, what's your take on the fact that Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate than the USA?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
Gary, for one ,, Cuba is a very small "country". They no doubt have a quite lower birth rate than any state here eh.? So i would expect the infant mortality rate lower on those stats alone. And that certainly doesnt explain cubans drifting over on boats to get the heck out of there. I havent heard of one US citizen that has rowed over to cuba for the awesome healthcare.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
Cuba is a very small "country". They no doubt have a quite lower birth rate than any state here eh.? So i would expect the infant mortality rate lower on those stats alone.

Never mind, of course, that infant motality rate is a percentage--i.e., already normalized for population.

Curt
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
No what that means is that a TINY lil country with a bustling drug biz can take care of a FEW. They want those babies to grow up into adult poppy pickers. But of course once grown, those folks would rather swim here than live there.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:31pm PT


Worth repeating...

"that infant motality rate is a percentage"...

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
Worth repeating--- a TINY country with a bustling drug biz can take care of a FEW. Trying to compare a friggin island the size of one of our parks to the USA is silly. You see CUBA DOESNT LET IN refugees, illegals, or anyone else for that matter. They dont invite every disenfranchised person round the globe to come there and suckle their teets.


Really LMAO! Soo easy to point out CUBA has a smaller infant mortality rate. Well yes they do perhaps. Maybe because they have a rather strict control of their people. Probably not many crack babys being born there- they dont like their workers to sample the goods. Probably not many heroin or meth or alcohol babys being born either.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
Worth repeating...

"that infant motality rate is a percentage"...

I'm afraid he doesn't understand the simple implication of that fact.

Curt
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
And putting the Federal Government in control of more medical issues will somehow fix this?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
Im afraid you DIDNT read my post Curt. Well not afraid,, just an observation..
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
Rong has proven once again
You can't debate "Stupid"
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
And putting the Federal Government in control of more medical issues will somehow fix this?
Yes
Because everyone would have access to affordable Health care, like Cuba and the rest of the civilized world.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
Haven't you been paying attention to the news over the last couple months, Dr F?

The Federal Government can't even run parks and golf courses reliably. And you think they can do brain surgery.

Are you sure you're a doctor?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:49pm PT
Doc when are you going to do that swim to the shiny shores of CUBA.???


Sooo i guess you think taking care of a FEW is just the same as the MASSES we have here right!?


You dont think its easier to treat a few than millions?



That is my point,, not some percentage rate. OF COURSE that pecentage rate will be higher. Less people = easier treatments. Thats is a damm basic factor that you being dumber than a box of conks, fail to see.
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
The Federal Government can't even run parks and golf courses reliably. And you think they can do brain surgery.


This is Total BS, The Republicans are trying and Have been successful in Shutting down the parks and Governement.
There is difference in trying to help, and trying to wreck, can you see that, or are you just blinded by Partisan spin.

The Governement Will Never do Brain Surgury, All they Do is PAy for it. How hard is that, they already do it for millions, it's called Medicare.

PAy attention.

ObamaCare is all about making sure everyone has afforable health care. Period.
That is helping.

Republicans are all about screwing us and them blaming someone else. Period.
That is not helping.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
You- hedge,, should have your brain removed, and your skull converted to a pisser.
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
ron is just a troll
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 18, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
Yes the number of people does NOT affect a percentage. That is correct. But Take 50 people and treat them. Then take 500K people and treat them. WHICH IS EASIER?


And for the love of cehezwhizz please start your swim to CUBA today!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 18, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
A pisser or a planter is what should be made from your skull. It would be the most life it ever contained.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 18, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
it would make a fine spittoon too..I could air brush the stars and bars on it.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 18, 2013 - 01:39pm PT
the distinction is becoming increasingly blurred.

no fx whatsoever
no fx whatsoever
Credit: Dunning-Kruger
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 18, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
The Federal Government can't even run parks and golf courses reliably. And you think they can do brain surgery.

Federal employees routinely do brain surgery in makeshift operating rooms in the middle of Afghanistan.

And they do it as well as anybody, anywhere.

Not that this matters in this debate, because the ACA doesn't have anything to do with the government performing medical procedures.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 18, 2013 - 02:18pm PT

I think that's a perfectly legitimate question.

Curt
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 18, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
large hippie gathering at donini's pad! they are prepping the kool aid
for the drum circle of a lifetime..
Credit: pyro
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 18, 2013 - 02:36pm PT
That migth be a reasonable thought except that in most 1st world countries this conversation would be met with one simple comment.

Of course Donini is right. Thats how everyone does it.

Cept for stupid Americans.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 18, 2013 - 02:42pm PT


Woth repeating a BUNCH of times...

"The number of people doesn't affect the percentage"...

locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 18, 2013 - 02:50pm PT


Credit: locker
...


Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Nov 18, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
Yes but you can use a bigger font?
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Nov 18, 2013 - 03:01pm PT
^^^^^^ From wackypedia

"Infant mortality rate (IMR) is the number of deaths of children less than one year of age per 1000 live births. The rate for a given region is the number of children dying under one year of age, divided by the number of live births during the year, multiplied by 1,000."

It does no good to compare IMR between countries if the values are NOT independent of population. So, I'm agreeing with Locker.

I've got to tell you, the OP's original question is a valid one to ask. It's also super complicated. However, you could just ask do you want this nation to be one that looks after its people, or throw them under the bus if they don't have enough money. Deep down I feel we should look after our people. But when I go to CostCo and see the huge slices of humanity wandering around there, I know the answer is at least partly education and not all health care. Nearly half of our national health problems are caused by poor eating habits. It's like smoking tobacco. If you want to smoke that's fine with me. But don't expect me to be happy picking up the tab for your lung cancer. You don't go out and think "I've got a beacon so I can do whatever I want in the backcountry and someone will come out and save my ass". I feel the same way about people eating themselves to death while pumping drugs to keep them alive.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 18, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
WTF is with some of you who fail to realize i was talking about the over all population of Cuba being easier to deal with than the population of the USA.

Was not refrecing to the percentages. WAS pointing out with such a small population it is EASIER to obtain better percentages EH! Now do you GIT my point?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
U.N. Ambassador, Crackistan
Nov 18, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
I think Cuba spent a lot of money per back in the day, you know, the Castro day, on, well, DOCTORS. And they put a lot of focus on the health and welfare of the Cuban people. They may be poor, but they're healthy and beautiful people, by all accounts.

DMT
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 18, 2013 - 03:20pm PT
Was not refrecing to the percentages. WAS pointing out with such a small population it is EASIER to obtain better percentages...

You weren't pointing out anything. You were merely making an unsubstantiated claim.

Curt
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 18, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
Your Right Dingus, there are some beautiful people there. I actually admire Cuba in some ways. They dont let swarms just "enter illegally" for one.
If you want to go there you need to have something to offer them i understand, another obviously sensible trait.



but as for ACTUAL numbers according to wikipiedia, the infant mortality rate
per every 1000 live births was up to 6.91 for the usa, and 6.14 for Cuba from 2005 to 2010.

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 18, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
They dont let swarms just "enter illegally" for one.

That's because they are not a capitalist economy. So, they don't need illegals to drive down wages and increase profits for a small class of capitalist freeloaders.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 18, 2013 - 03:52pm PT


"I actually admire Cuba in some ways"...


You admire a COMMUNIST country...

but you don't admire the GOOD our President is doing for people like you and I...



Ron...

you crack me up!!!...

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 18, 2013 - 03:58pm PT
The good? Let me inform you, ive been on the phone for 2.2 hours now waiting to talk to the IRS over a bill ive received from a 2005 return...DONT talk to me about the good my gubbmint is doing me. Cuz they are DOING me right now. That year was the one i played in bands and netted a paltry 18,000.


And did you see my addition of the actual birth numbers from wiki?
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 18, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
They dont let swarms just "enter illegally" for one.


They'd probably let you in, Ron. Legally.

Dingus is right, they have a very high hottie per capita rate ... and you could be one of the capita!

No Obamacare.

And the IRS would never catch up to you in Cuba.

When you get there, raise a glass of rum for me!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 18, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
Im unaware of Cuban taxidermists.. I think this is a trick..;-)
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 18, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
You'd have a monopoly!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 18, 2013 - 04:23pm PT
Dave they would take one look at me and my white goatee and think,, "this guy is gonna be a drain on our employee insurance in nooo time".. And give me a ticket on the next boat back lol!


edit: BWaaahahahahaaa! Dayum,, everything is extinct there,, the ATE EM ALL!
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 18, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
It does look like pretty slim pickens for your line of work:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mammals_of_Cuba

I guess islands are not generally taxidermist-friendly.

There's always fish...
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 18, 2013 - 04:25pm PT

Behind Health Care Reform: An Insider's View: Stan Hupfeld at TEDxOU


Some facts (NYT):
 A country’s wealth usually dictates how much money it spends on health care, but spending in the United States is far beyond that of its peer countries.
 Though Americans undergo more surgical procedures like angioplasties, which widen clogged arteries, deaths from heart attacks are not proportionately lower.
 Despite very good access to diagnostic equipment and surgical procedures, Americans’ life expectancy is lower than that of many other countries.
 Economists point to the rate of cancer deaths in the United States as an indicator that its spending is out of line with results.
 Experts say that the United States lags in basic preventive care, like annual checkups, and relies too heavily on expensive specialists.
 The United States also has relatively few hospital beds for its population. Economists have noted that hospitals’ inpatient care is growing at a much slower rate than outpatient care, which has a much higher profit margin.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/06/06/business/metrics-health-care-outlier.html?_r=0
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 18, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
Imagine what Blitzo might add to this conversation if they hadn't dragged their heels approving his last $300 chemo dose until too late, instead of just giving it to him, like they do in every other civilized country on this planet.
Degaine

climber
Nov 18, 2013 - 04:30pm PT
ron anderson wrote:
but as for ACTUAL numbers according to wikipiedia, the infant mortality rate
per every 1000 live births was up to 6.91 for the usa, and 6.14 for Cuba from 2005 to 2010.


Is this the link you are referring to?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate

If it is, then you really need to take my advice from a few pages back (or another thread, can't remember which) to get some help on your reading comprehension skills.

The rates you cite are from 2000-2005. From 2005-2010 Cuba is at 5.13 and the US at 6.81 (UN stats). The CIA World Factbook estimate for 2013 is 4.76 for Cuba and 5.9 for the US. The trend is a reduction in the rate for both countries, which is a good thing.

Since you don't seem content with the comparison to a little country, how about to Japan? Here are Japan's numbers from the same tables:
2000-2005 => 3.04
20005-2010 => 2.62
2013 => 2.17

It goes without saying that France and Germany are much lower than the US, too.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 18, 2013 - 04:39pm PT

Bloomberg ranked countries based on the efficiency of their health-care systems.

Each country was ranked on three criteria: life expectancy (weighted 60%), relative per capita cost of health care (30%); and absolute per capita cost of health care (10%). Countries were scored on each criterion and the scores were weighted and summed to obtain their efficiency scores. Relative cost is health cost per capita as a percentage of GDP per capita. Absolute cost is total health expenditure, which covers preventive and curative health services, family planning, nutrition activities and emergency aid. Included were countries with populations of at least five million, GDP per capita of at least $5,000 and life expectancy of at least 70 years.

http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data/best-and-worst/most-efficient-health-care-countries

USA is number 46 of 48 countries. Only Brazil and Serbia is worse off...

Among advanced economies, the U.S. spends the most on health care on a relative cost basis with the worst outcome

USA spends a lot more (spending most as a percentage of GDP per capita) and still peoples life expectancy is shorter in the US than in many other countries (USA is number 24 of 48 countries when it comes to life expectancy).

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 18, 2013 - 04:40pm PT
degaine,,i said Up to, even though i miss typed the year. No further clarification needed. Point is, the difference is hardly what was said upthread EH. Im currently juggling documents, payment receipts and tax returns so EXCUSE me..
Degaine

climber
Nov 18, 2013 - 04:52pm PT
ron anderson wrote:
degaine,,i said Up to, even though i miss typed the year. No further clarification needed. Point is, the difference is hardly what was said upthread EH. Im currently juggling documents, payment receipts and tax returns so EXCUSE me..


You make factual and logic mistakes, both small and huge, in just about every one of your posts. The post I quoted was not a typo or an exception, it is the rule.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 18, 2013 - 05:00pm PT
but spending in the United States is far beyond that of its peer countries.

This is another issue I believe a single payer system can address.

Monopoly can work for the consumer in this case. If there is a a single customer (ie the single payer pool) then that customer has very high leverage for setting prices in their favor.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 18, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
imagine for a moment what your opinion must mean to me,, or anyone else here deegaine. Your prolly an "excellent driver".
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Nov 18, 2013 - 05:20pm PT
and please imagine what our opinion of you is RONG
and your constant spewing of opnions about Obama lying, and how Obama did this and that.

we can care less, Why?, because your opinions suck, and most of them are based on lies and misinformation, which just makes you a sucker and a loser.
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Nov 18, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
Somalia has less people to worry about, how come they are One of the few Countries with a Higher Infant Mortality Rate than America -Rong

Please answer why this is so?
Less people, should be less infant mortality, right?
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 18, 2013 - 05:27pm PT
dr f wrote
we can care less, Why?, because your opinions suck, and most of them are based on lies and misinformation, which just makes you a sucker and a loser

u are the king when it comes to drum circles such hatred I thought hippy people are nice
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 18, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 18, 2013 - 05:31pm PT
u are the king when it comes to drum circles such hatred I thought hippy people are nice

Even hippies can get fed-up with stupid people.

Curt
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 18, 2013 - 05:40pm PT
No chyt eh Pyro LOL! +111!


Doc i dont have to point out obamas lies any more, they are all coming to a head, ned...
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 18, 2013 - 05:48pm PT
Credit: pyro
Tech drum circle spoiled brats want free health care. They will kick and scream for free
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Nov 18, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
Even hippies can get fed up with people.


That is correct.

Not one of you ,can give a good explanation of why you do not want the ACA.

That is because it is hard to explain yourselves as selfish misers.

That's right.

Drum circles,socialists,god damn right.

Concerned for others well being.

Sorry ,not one of you can say that.




Go ahead ,call me names .



Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 18, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
hill billy^^^^^^^
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Nov 18, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
GD Right,Ron.....ha
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 18, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
I know that to be complementary round those parts...
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Nov 18, 2013 - 06:04pm PT
Maybe if we had free health care our wound warriors would get taken care of, instead of groups begging on TV.

Our wounded soldiers should want for nothing.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 18, 2013 - 06:18pm PT


"The good? Let me inform you, ive been on the phone for 2.2 hours now waiting to talk to the IRS over a bill ive received from a 2005 return...DONT talk to me about the good my gubbmint is doing me."...

What does that have to do with Healthcare and the GOOD the President is doing for our Country???...

and wasn't George DoubleYUH President then???...

Call him up and ask "What the fuk???"...

Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Nov 18, 2013 - 06:58pm PT
Tech drum circle spoiled brats want free health care. They will kick and scream for free
A pathetic scream of BS

No one has said we want any free anything.
Especially the liberals, we are the only ones wanting reasonable taxing and reasonable spending.

You can't tell us one thing that the other side has to offer.
So basically you are just against the only hope we have.
And that only hope is working for progress and just fixing the system.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 18, 2013 - 07:01pm PT
somebody has to pay for the gas!
somebody has to pay for the gas!
Credit: pyro
Dr f has just over dosed from kool aid
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 18, 2013 - 07:02pm PT
somebody has to pay for the gas!
somebody has to pay for the gas!
Credit: pyro
Dr f has just over dosed from kool aid
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Nov 18, 2013 - 07:08pm PT
Locker,, in case you havent noticed NOTHING in retro active as for responsibility of former presidents.

It is the obama admin that is attempting to pick my pockets TODAY. The guy that sent me the letter ultimately works for barry-o..
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Nov 18, 2013 - 07:30pm PT
Yep,Pyro ,nice pics .

What is your explanation?Or ,do you only speak through pictures from a sixties tv show?

We here in America are to bail out the richest in the world,watch them sell our jobs off,Hell the market is kicking.

Then we are to turn our backs on those losers,you know the disabled,sick,poor,and elderly.

Yeah, us Hippies caused all this division.


Edit: Any one ,Let us know when this is not about you






Every man for himself.

There's a game plan for you.


locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Nov 18, 2013 - 07:32pm PT


"It is the obama admin that is attempting to pick my pockets TODAY"...

Apparently there was an error and now they are asking that you pay it...

I believe in TAXES and don't see it as, "Picking your pocket"...



I am an American...

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Nov 18, 2013 - 07:40pm PT
Ron...Next time don't write Tea Bagger on your ballot and Obummer won't audit you...rj
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 18, 2013 - 08:40pm PT
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 18, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
^^^ Proving only that Republican smear campaigns work.

Curt
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Nov 18, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
Before you buy into the myth of "free" healthcare, you must consider it's source....the Liar in Chief, Barack Obama.


What follows is the BEST SUMMATION OF BARACK AND MICHELLE EVER! This country needs to get over being POLITCALLY CORRECT.....and start telling it like it is.


Mychal Massie is a respected writer and talk show host in Los Angeles.
Mr. Massie is also an African American.



The other evening on my twitter, a person asked me why I didn’t like the Obama’s? Specifically I was asked: “I have to ask, why do you hate the Obama’s? It seems personal, not policy related. You even dissed (disrespected) their Christmas family picture.”

The truth is I do not like the Obamas, what they represent, their ideology, and I certainly do not like his policies and legislation. I’ve made no secret of my contempt for the Obamas. As I responded to the person who asked me the aforementioned question, I don’t like them because they are committed to the fundamental change of my/our country into what can only be regarded as a Communist state.

I don’t hate them per definition, but I condemn them because they are the worst kind of racialists, they are elitist Leninists with contempt for traditional America. They display disrespect for the sanctity of the office he holds, and for those who are willing to admit same, Michelle Obama’s raw contempt for white America is transpicuous. I don’t like them because they comport themselves as emperor and empress.

I expect, no I demand respect, for the Office of President and a love of our country and her citizenry from the leader entrusted with the governance of same. President and Mrs. Reagan displayed an unparalleled love for the country and her people.

The Reagan’s made Americans feel good about themselves and about what we could accomplish. Obama’s arrogance by appointing 32 leftist czars and constantly bypassing congress is impeachable. Eric Holder is probably the MOST incompetent and arrogant DOJ head to ever hold the job. Could you envision President Reagan instructing his Justice Department to act like jack-booted thugs?

Presidents are politicians and all politicians are known and pretty much expected to manipulate the truth, if not outright lie, but even using that low standard, the Obama’s have taken lies, dishonesty, deceit, mendacity, subterfuge and obfuscation to new depths. They are verbally abusive to the citizenry, and they display an animus for civility.

I do not like them, because they both display bigotry overtly, as in the case of Harvard Professor Louis Gates, when he accused the Cambridge Police of acting stupidly, and her code speak pursuant to not being able to be proud of America. I view that statement and that mindset as an insult to those who died to provide a country where a Kenyan, his illegal alien relatives, and his alleged progeny, could come and not only live freely, but rise to the highest, most powerful, position in the world.

Michelle Obama is free to hate and disparage whites because Americans of every description paid with their blood to ensure her right to do same. I have a saying, that “the only reason a person hides things, is because they have something to hide.” No president in history has spent millions of dollars to keep his records and his past sealed.

And what the two of them have shared has been proved to be lies. He lied about when and how they met, he lied about his mother’s death and problems with insurance, Michelle lied to a crowd pursuant to nearly $500,000 bank stocks they inherited from his family. He has lied about his father’s military service, about the civil rights movement, ad nausea. He lied to the world about the Supreme Court in a State of the Union address. He berated and publicly insulted a sitting Congressman. He has surrounded himself with the most rabidly, radical, socialist academicians today.

He opposed rulings that protected women and children that even Planned Parenthood did not seek to support. He is openly hostile to business and aggressively hostile to Israel. His wife treats being the First Lady as her personal American Express Black Card (arguably the most prestigious credit card in the world). I condemn them because, as people are suffering, losing their homes, their jobs, their retirements, he and his family are arrogantly showing off their life of entitlement – as he goes about creating and fomenting class warfare.

I don’t like them, and I neither apologize nor retreat from my public condemnation of them and of his policies. We should condemn them for the disrespect they show our people, for his willful and unconstitutional actions pursuant to obeying the Constitutional parameters he is bound by, and his willful disregard for Congressional authority.

Dislike for them has nothing to do with the color of their skin; it has everything to do with their behavior, attitudes, and policies. And I have open scorn for their constantly playing the race card.

I could go on, but let me conclude with this. I condemn in the strongest possible terms the media for refusing to investigate them, as they did President Bush and President Clinton, and for refusing to label them for what they truly are. There is no scenario known to man, whereby a white president and his wife could ignore laws, flaunt their position, and lord over the people, as these two are permitted out of fear for their color.

As I wrote in a syndicated column titled, “Nero In The White House” – “Never in my life, inside or outside of politics, have I witnessed such dishonesty in a political leader. He is the most mendacious political figure I have ever witnessed. Even by the low standards of his presidential predecessors, his narcissistic, contumacious arrogance is unequalled. Using Obama as the bar, Nero would have to be elevated to sainthood…

Many in America wanted to be proud when the first person of color was elected president, but instead, they have been witness to a congenital liar, a woman who has been ashamed of America her entire life, failed policies, intimidation, and a commonality hitherto not witnessed in political leaders. He and his wife view their life at our expense as an entitlement – while America’s people go homeless, hungry and unemployed.”
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 18, 2013 - 09:27pm PT
The truth is I do not like the Obamas, what they represent, their ideology, and I certainly do not like his policies and legislation. I’ve made no secret of my contempt for the Obamas. As I responded to the person who asked me the aforementioned question, I don’t like them because they are committed to the fundamental change of my/our country into what can only be regarded as a Communist state.

Sorry, but that's about as far as I needed to read. Anyone who calls a centrist president like Obama a communist is a couple of fries short of a happy meal.

Curt
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Nov 18, 2013 - 09:27pm PT
Good for you Cragman.

He is already done.

Now go out and get a majority of people to agree with your rhetoric.

Till then ........

edit;Like I said ,let us know when its not about you
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 18, 2013 - 09:29pm PT
Cragman sure puts a lot of effort into explaining why he hates someone.



Curt, you made it further than me.

When one has to preface an article with the race of the author, it's a sure sign that what follows is a bunch of racist drivel.
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Nov 18, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
I have lost all of the little respect I had
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Nov 18, 2013 - 09:33pm PT
The truth of the matter is, if a Republican president was in office right now, doing HALF the criminal things Obama is doing, you Liberals would be calling for his head on a platter.

You, and the media, protect his evil doings.

And he is rapidly losing his fan base. At least people are beginning to wise up.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Nov 18, 2013 - 09:36pm PT
Really.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 18, 2013 - 09:37pm PT
The hatred is creepy.

Really creepy.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 18, 2013 - 09:40pm PT
And apparently "illegal" now means doing things that Republicans object to.

Curt
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Nov 18, 2013 - 09:42pm PT
Kos...get over yourself.

With your brand of logic, I must "hate" the Chinese because I really don't care for Chinese food.

Wise up.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 18, 2013 - 09:45pm PT
"...if a Republican president was in office right now, doing HALF the criminal things Obama is doing, you Liberals would be calling for his head on a platter."

Ummm, yeah...that actually happened just a few years ago...and you guys pretty much laughed it off.

Anyway...more to the point...can you give one example of something that has happened under Obama that has a similar level of questionable legality, downright dishonesty, and resultant death, destruction and deficit as Shrub's War of Error?

A rhetorical question, I know...'cuz nothing comes close. So howzabout keeping some perspective on your President, eh?
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 18, 2013 - 09:48pm PT
With your brand of logic, I must "hate" the Chinese because I really don't care for Chinese food.

What's your opinion of fried chicken and waffles?

Curt
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Nov 18, 2013 - 09:52pm PT
Or what about ANY lack of oversight that led to the Financial Crisis.


You are RIGHT,THERE IS NO CRIMINALITY THERE.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Nov 18, 2013 - 09:52pm PT
Ap....very predictable.

You guys always go to Bush to try and direct the focus away from Obama. Quit living in the past, and you might see the reality of the present about to bite you on the ass.
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Nov 18, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
Tell us exactly what Obama has done that has been bad that compares to Bush. Please

Bush = trillions wasted, 100,000s dead, 100s of millions bankrupt or foreclosed on
Obama = millions now have health care insurance
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 18, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
No, not really...you'd be surprised ('unpredictable') as to the criticisms I have for the guy I voted for.

I just can't think of much of anything he's done that's resulted in anywhere near as much death, destruction and deficit as Shrub's Reign. Can you?

It's all about perspective. Most of the fears of the Ranting Right have about Obama are theoretic boogeyman stuff (i.e. typical GOP tactics). Hell, I bet if you were to list a few of the actual 'illegal' acts Obama has committed, at least half would be continuations of something Shrubco started...
dirtbag

climber
Nov 18, 2013 - 10:01pm PT
Sorry, but that's about as far as I needed to read. Anyone who calls a centrist president like Obama a communist is a couple of fries short of a happy meal.

Curt

Word. What a joke.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 18, 2013 - 10:03pm PT
We should probably thank TGT, Cragman, Ron and the others for pointing out the many shortcomings of the ACA--hopefully their very comments will fuel an expeditious move towards a single-payer healthcare system. One thing's for sure, we're not going back. No more bankrupting people for becoming ill, no more denying coverage to people with pre-existing conditions. The genie is out of the bottle.

Curt
WBraun

climber
Nov 18, 2013 - 10:04pm PT
Bush = trillions wasted, 100,000s dead
Obama = millions now have health care insurance


This is the sum substance of a Politard zombie argument.

I never even knew these ridicules stupid zombies existed until this forum.

No wonder the USA is falling down farther and farther.

It's run by politard zombies, Israels and nutcases ......
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Nov 18, 2013 - 10:05pm PT
Just like the good ole days
apogee, Dirtbag, Curt, Degaine, and Dr. F squashing the evil talking points perpetuated by the evil minions bred by Fox News and the overlords of Satan!
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Nov 18, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
I do not live in the past,you brought it up.

Look, the whole idea behind the ACA,is the more that participate the better OUR chances of reducing HC costs.

If you do not [any of you] believe that simple premise,the more all of US will suffer with fixed pricing.

Simple Economics.

You guys on the right are all about money,I cannot ,for the life of me understand why you can't get on board with reducing costs.

Instead ,you hate Obama.

This cannot succeed ,your political future depends on killing this.

What is your all knowing vision then?

And please tell me how you will win any election if you actually shut the ACA down.








Remember ,always consider yourself.
WBraun

climber
Nov 18, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
Apogee, Dirtbag, and Dr. F Politard zombie nutcases .....
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 18, 2013 - 10:11pm PT
'apogee'
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 18, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
Apogee, Dirtbag, and Dr. F Politard zombie nutcases .....

What? I don't even get an honorable mention?

Curt
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Nov 18, 2013 - 10:35pm PT
Mimi told me I need to lay off holding poor lame ass Werner accountable for his lame ass posting

so I won't bother responding to his latest lame ass post
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 18, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
this one for werner
Credit: pyro
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 18, 2013 - 10:40pm PT
You, and the media, protect his evil doings.

psst...looney tunes, the tablets are upside down
psst...looney tunes, the tablets are upside down
Credit: Wade Icey
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 18, 2013 - 10:40pm PT
expensive tech stuff
Credit: pyro
Dr. F.

Trad climber
SoCal
Nov 18, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
No One Died at Healthcare.gov: The Phony Crisis of Obamacare

Posted: 11/18/2013 9:37 pm
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dean-baker/no-one-died-at-healthcare_b_4299399.html?utm_hp_ref=politics&ir=Politics
shit tooth

Trad climber
Bozeman, MT
Nov 18, 2013 - 10:58pm PT
As somebody who works very hard, gets paid very little, and has no health insurance, it is a very frustrating life. Everyday in many ways I am on the brink of losing everything if I simply break a bone/get sick/ whatever. I work physical jobs, so if I were to ever become ill, I would have a huge bill, and no job. Sure theres workers comp, but, theres also rent due every month. I'll check on obamacare here soon, but for now, I'll continue to live a paranoid existence that all my time, money, and energy could very well end up disappearing all in one quick accident. My american dream is to go to Canada.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 18, 2013 - 11:00pm PT
Defibrillator!!!!!


F*#K YEAH BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


pyro,

YOU ROCK!


Hey cragman, you know I voted for Bush in 2000 ?

Get a clue, Obama is a moderate.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 18, 2013 - 11:16pm PT
^^^^ZOMBIE!!!^^^^^
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Nov 18, 2013 - 11:20pm PT
"Get a clue, Obama is a moderate."


Moderate Socialist.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 18, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
Credit: Tom Tomorrow
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 18, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
http://obamacaresignups.net/
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 18, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
Moderate Socialist.

I heard he fathered two black children.....
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 18, 2013 - 11:27pm PT
What's the deal, anyway?

All of these Repubs keep squawkin' about how Obama is the devil incarnate and is driving our country to the bowels of hell....

And if you ask them a simple question...just give one example of anything as hellish as thousands of deaths, destruction and deficit that the last POTUS produced...

...such a simple question...should be a slam-dunk, given their vitriolic convictions...

...and all you get are <<crickets>>...
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Nov 18, 2013 - 11:40pm PT
Moderate Socialist.

You mean like Jesus?
Wade Icey

Trad cli