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plasticluvr
Gym climber
ft lauderdale fl
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 5, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
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About 80 percent of the world’s farmland is used to support the meat and poultry industries, and much of that goes to growing animal feed. An efficient use of resources this is not. For example, a single pound of cooked beef, a family meal’s worth of hamburgers, requires 298 square feet of land, 27 pounds of feed, and 211 gallons of water.
Supplying meat not only devours resources but also creates waste. That same pound of hamburger requires more than 4,000 Btus of fossil-fuel energy to get to the dinner table; something has to power the tractors, feedlots, slaughterhouses, and trucks. That process, along with the methane the cows belch throughout their lives, contributes as much as 51 percent of all greenhouse gas produced in the world.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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OMG !!!
I'm having fish tonight.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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provides jobs for heart surgeons also,
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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If God did not want us to eat animals why did he make them out of meat?
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plasticluvr
Gym climber
ft lauderdale fl
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2013 - 10:16pm PT
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Traditional chicken, beef, and pork production devours resources and creates waste. Meat-free meat might be the solution.
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jstan
climber
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P/L:
Nice first effort. Since someone will say it, maybe I can. Where you can it is a good idea to include links to data sources. Links are wonderfully easy to follow up.
I trust you know what you are getting into here.
If God did not want us to eat animals why did he make them out of meat?
God also made animals to eat us. That's why we are made of meat.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Huh, I'm having elk tonight. Yesterday was fish. I caught the fish, I killed the elk, neither involved a slaughterhouse, hormones, antibiotics, or nearly as many wasted BTU's as quoted.
The truth about the world: technology has outpaced good sense, and there's just too damn many people. Some day technology will fail us, and the number of people will shrink dramatically.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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So u love plastic but don't like meat?
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Let's harness those methane beltches to produce power and go get a burger.
Do you really think harvesting of veggies has no environmental impact? Agreed that if we all lived on farms and grew our own food the world would be better. That is just not practical given our urban lifestyle.
I like to eat meat. You are a veggie. Let's think about it. If all meat eaters went veggie what would be the impact? The need for protein substances would transition from animals to plants. Are those plants going to magically appear with no environmental impact? Fertilizer comes from where? Processing of the veggies requires water which requires other resources It is all a trade off. There is no free lunch.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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I forgot to mention the home-grown veggies, 'cause you know... commercial veggies only have about half the nutrients due to overuse of the soil they're grown in and use of artificial fertilizer instead of good old compost.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Maybe the real argument is "don't kill animals".
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plasticluvr
Gym climber
ft lauderdale fl
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
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A 2012 study at the University of Exeter in the U.K. calculated the degree to which diets must change in order to feed the world in 2050 and stave off catastrophic climate change. The researchers found that average global meat consumption would have to decrease from 16.6 percent of average daily calorie intake to 15 percent. That may not sound like much, but it translates to roughly halving the amount of meat in Western diets—a major change, but conceivable with high-quality meat alternatives.
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jstan
climber
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J/R:
ST then will solve our artificial fertilizer problem?
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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A 2012 study at the University of Exeter in the U.K. calculated the degree to which diets must change in order to feed the world in 2050 and stave off catastrophic climate change. The researchers found that average global meat consumption would have to decrease from 16.6 percent of average daily calorie intake to 15 percent. That may not sound like much, but it translates to roughly halving the amount of meat in Western diets—a major change, but conceivable with high-quality meat alternatives.
And where will the protein source come from and what are the impacts?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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They aren't spree killers/ mass murderers.
They are just woefully misunderstood environmental activists.
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plasticluvr
Gym climber
ft lauderdale fl
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
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Okay , Just saying cutting down on meat or eating fake meat could just save the planet!
Can Artificial Meat Save The World?
Traditional chicken, beef, and pork production devours resources and creates waste. Meat-free meat might be the solution.
By Tom Foster Posted 10.28.2013 at 12:55 pm
5
The Meat Lab Brian Klutch
On an ordinary spring morning in Columbia, Missouri, Ethan Brown stands in the middle of an ordinary kitchen tearing apart a chicken fajita strip. “Look at this,” he says. “It’s amazing!” Around him, a handful of stout Midwestern food-factory workers lean in and nod approvingly. “I’m just so proud of it.”
The meat Brown is pulling apart looks normal enough: beige flesh that separates into long strands. It would not be out of place in a chicken salad or Caesar wrap. Bob Prusha, a colleague of Brown’s, stands over a stove sautéing a batch for us to eat. But the meat Brown is fiddling with and Prusha is frying is far from ordinary. It’s actually not meat at all.
Brown is the CEO of Beyond Meat, a four-year-old company that manufactures a meat substitute made mainly from soy and pea proteins and amaranth. Mock meat is not a new idea. Grocery stores are full of plant-based substitutes—the Boca and Gardenburgers of the world, not to mention Asian staples like tofu and seitan. What sets Beyond Meat apart is how startlingly meat-like its product is. The “chicken” strips have the distinct fibrous structure of poultry, and they deliver a similar nutritional profile. Each serving has about the same amount of protein as an equivalent portion of chicken, but with zero cholesterol or saturated and trans fats.
To Brown, there is little difference between his product and the real thing. Factory-farmed chickens aren’t really treated as animals, he says; they’re machines that transform vegetable inputs into chicken breasts. Beyond Meat simply uses a more efficient production system. Where one pound of cooked boneless chicken requires 7.5 pounds of dry feed and 30 liters of water, the same amount of Beyond Meat requires only 1.1 pound of ingredients and two liters of water.
The ability to efficiently create meat, or something sufficiently meat-like, will become progressively more important in coming years because humanity may be reaching a point when there’s not enough animal protein to go around. The United Nations expects the global population to grow from the current 7.2 billion to 9.6 billion by 2050. Also, as countries such as China and India continue to develop, their populations are adopting more Western diets. Worldwide the amount of meat eaten per person nearly doubled from 1961 to 2007, and the UN projects it will double again by 2050.
In other words, the planet needs to rethink how it gets its meat. Brown is addressing the issue by supplying a near-perfect meat analogue, but he is not alone in reinventing animal products. Just across town, Modern Meadow uses 3-D printers and tissue engineering to grow meat in a lab. The company already has a refrigerator full of lab-grown beef and pork; in fact, the company’s co-founder, Gabor Forgacs, fried and ate a piece of engineered pork onstage at a 2011 TED talk. Another scientist, Mark Post at Maastricht University in the Netherlands, is also using tissue engineering to produce meat in a lab. In August, he served an entire lab-grown burger to two diners on a London stage as a curious but skeptical crowd looked on.
Chicken-Free Strips It took more than two decades to create a vegetable-based meat analogue with a consistency and texture similar to chicken; Whole Foods began selling the packaged Beyond Meat product in spring. Courtesy Beyond Meat
Revolutions tend to appear revolutionary only from a distance, and as Brown walks me to the production floor, I’m struck by how similar the Beyond Meat factory looks to any other. Nondescript metal machinery churns away. Ingredients sit in plastic bulk-foods bins. We put on hairnets and white coats and walk over to a small blue conveyor belt, where Brown’s chicken strips emerge from the machinery cooked and in oddly rectilinear form. They are not yet seasoned, he says, but they are ready to eat. At the end of the conveyor belt, the still-steaming strips fall unceremoniously into a steel bucket, where they land with a dull thud.
Staring at the bucketful of precooked strips, it’s hard to imagine a future in which meat is, by necessity, not meat. Or in which meat is grown in a manufacturing facility instead of a field or feedlot. But that future is fast approaching, and here in the heart of Big Ag country, both Beyond Meat and Modern Meadow are confronting it head on.
Each year, Americans eat more than 200 pounds of meat per person, and mid-Missouri is as good a place as any to see what it takes to satisfy that appetite. Columbia sits dead center in the state, so approaching on I-70 from either direction means driving about two hours past huge tracts of farmland—soy, corn, and wheat fields and herds of grazing cattle. Giant truck stops glow on the horizon, and mile-long trains tug boxcars loaded with grain to places as far away as Mexico and California.
Beyond Meat Factory in Columbia, Missouri, food scientists transform a mix of soy and pea proteins and amaranth into “chicken” strips. Courtesy Beyond Meat
It’s rich country that for nearly 150 years has fed the nation and the world. Yet most of the crops grown around Columbia will never land on dining-room tables but rather in giant feedlot troughs. That’s not unusual. About 80 percent of the world’s farmland is used to support the meat and poultry industries, and much of that goes to growing animal feed. An efficient use of resources this is not. For example, a single pound of cooked beef, a family meal’s worth of hamburgers, requires 298 square feet of land, 27 pounds of feed, and 211 gallons of water.
Supplying meat not only devours resources but also creates waste. That same pound of hamburger requires more than 4,000 Btus of fossil-fuel energy to get to the dinner table; something has to power the tractors, feedlots, slaughterhouses, and trucks. That process, along with the methane the cows belch throughout their lives, contributes as much as 51 percent of all greenhouse gas produced in the world.
To understand how humans developed such a reliance on meat, it’s useful to start at the beginning. Several million years ago, hominids had large guts and smaller brains. That began to reverse around two million years ago: Brains got bigger as guts got smaller. The primary reason for the change, according to a seminal 1995 study by evolutionary anthropologist Leslie Aiello, then of the University College London, is that our ancestors started eating meat, a compact, high-energy source of calories. With meat, hominids did not need to maintain a large, energy-intense digestive system. Instead, they could divert energy elsewhere, namely to power big energy-hungry brains. And with those brains, they changed the world.
As time progressed, meat became culturally important too. Hunting fostered cooperation; cooking and eating the kill brought communities together over shared rituals—as it still does in backyard barbecues. Neal Barnard, a nutrition author and physician at George Washington University, argues that today the cultural appeal of meat trumps any physiological benefits. “We have known for a long time that people who don’t eat meat are thinner and healthier and live longer than people who do,” he says. Nutritionally, meat is a good source of protein, iron, and vitamin B12, but Barnard says those nutrients are easily available from other sources that aren’t also heavy in saturated fats. “For the millennia of our sojourn on Earth, we have been getting more than enough protein from entirely plant-based sources. The cow gets its protein that way and simply rearranges it into muscle. People say, ‘Gee if I don’t eat muscle, where will I get protein?’ You get it from the same place the cow got it.”
To Barnard, the simple conclusion is that everyone should stick to eating plants—and he’s right that it would be a far more efficient use of all that cropland. And yet to most people, meat tastes good. Studies suggest that eating meat activates the brain’s pleasure center in much the same way chocolate does. Even many vegetarians say bacon smells great when it’s cooking. For whatever reason, most people simply love to eat meat—myself included. And that makes
re-creating it, whether from vegetables or cells in a lab, exceedingly difficult.
* * *
In the mid-1980s, a food scientist named Fu-hung Hsieh moved to Columbia, Missouri, to start a food-engineering program at the University of Missouri. Hsieh was coming to academia from a successful career in the processed-foods industry, at Quaker Oats, and he convinced the university to buy him a commercial-grade extrusion machine, nearly unheard of in an academic setting.
Modern Meadow Modern Meadow grows beef and pork cells in heated incubator Courtesy Modern Meadow
An extruder is one of the processed-food industry’s most important and versatile pieces of equipment, the invention responsible for Froot Loops and Cheetos and premade cookie dough. Dry and wet ingredients are poured into a hopper on one end of the machine and a rotating auger pushes them through a long barrel, where they are subjected to varying levels of heat and pressure. At the barrel’s end, the ingredients pass through a die that forms them into whatever shape and texture the machine has been programmed to produce. The mixture emerges at the far end as a continuous ribbon of food, which is sliced into the desired portions.
On one level, an extruder is a simple piece of technology—something like a giant sausage maker—but producing the desired result can be devilishly complicated. “Some people say extrusion cooking is an art form,” says Harold Huff, a meat-loving Missouri native who works with Hsieh as a senior research specialist. Around 1989, Hsieh and Huff took an interest in using the extruder to make the first realistic meat analogue. “We didn’t worry about flavor or anything else,” Hsieh tells me. “We wanted it to tear apart like chicken—it was all just about initial appearance.” They knew there wasn’t a single physical or chemical adjustment that would bring about a solution. They just had to experiment. “You have to have the right ingredients, the right temperature, the right hardware,” Huff says. “You try things, make observations, and make adjustments” for years, even decades. And so it went, until Ethan Brown came calling in 2009.
Brown, a vegan environmentalist, had been working for a fuel-cell company and had become frustrated by his colleagues’ ignorance of meat’s role in climate change. “We would go to conferences and sit there wringing our hands over all these [energy] issues, and then we’d go to dinner and people would order huge steaks,” he says. “I was like, ‘This is stupid, I want to go work on that problem.’ ” To the ridicule of old friends, who joked that he was moving to the country to start a tofu factory, he started poring over journal articles and casting around for meat analogues to market—which is how he heard about Hsieh’s work.
Brown licensed the veggie chicken and began fine-tuning it with the scientists for mass consumption. “If we used too much soy, it was too firm, and if we reduced it too much, it became soft, like tofu,” Brown remembers. “It took us two years to figure that out, and it’s still not perfect.”
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Recommended by
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TwistedCrank
climber
Bungwater Hollow, Ida-ho
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If it doesn't have meat in it, it's a snack.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Actually, if you can do it, kudos to you. Thanks to some prodding by my environmentally-aware significant other I've managed to cut my fast-food intake by probably 75%. The majority of meat I eat now is organic. We stay with the environmentally "friendly" fish.
Are you vegan? Are you vegetarian? Congratulations! That takes dedication.
Good luck changing the rest of the world, you're gonna need it.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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ohh, lordy, if it's that simple to save the planet, plastic-heart-troll, think it would be done by now. I'ts a bit more complex but every bit contributes to the whole of our salvation I guess. Thanks, lynnie
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Meat is good for you. Eat plenty of it.
Any amount of farmland dedicated to providing food sources is a good as far as I am concerned.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Monsanto
it's whats for dinner,
tonight,
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Decko
Trad climber
Colorado
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None of it matters....
Have a Scotch on the rocks from the melting glaciers......
And enjoy the boat ride.....
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Turkey is a good, lean meat.
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dave729
Trad climber
Western America
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plasticluvr Little minds thinks little thoughts. Go big my man.
You think of a way to rid the world ocean of all those nasty polluting animals(fish) and then you've really freed up some resources for people to use.
Big steaming bowls of plankton 3 times a day for everyone. Yum.
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
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I thought this thread was going to be about this guy...
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WBraun
climber
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All that violence against those living beings comes back as violence in endless wars.
Stupid Americans have no clue what they're doing .....
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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planet yosemite,
phi beta kappitol of the world,
what is considered a dangerous level of blood pressure?
i need to get more plaque into my veins, and maybe some type B serum,
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Canada, they built a country and nobody came,
however, jim carey is pretty funny,
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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and let's not forget Justin Bieber!
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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I am particularly fond of red meat.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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I like grass fed sustainable meat sources.
That is why I hunt. Quail's in season, turkey coming soon... yum!!!
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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99 cent value meal is the way to go,
heart attack in a sack,
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Loco de Pedra
Mountain climber
Around the World
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Does anyone here enjoy whale meat? What about dog meat? Cats? Horse? Meat is meat right? Should we have grill your dog day then?
It is all about indoctrination. If you have your own home grown “organic” meat, that is one thing. If people had to kill for their own meat lots of people would be vegetarian for sure.
But now comes in a nice little package just like a toy.
But the way things are now you MUST WAKE UP!
Watch this if you DARE, so you have an idea, Earthlings:
(Warning: not for the sheeple)
http://earthlings.com/?page_id=32
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Does anyone here enjoy whale meat? What about dog meat? Cats? Horse? Meat is meat right?
My favorite is grilled monkey on a stick. Dog meat is pretty good, too. Buffalo is awesome.
My family was never into hunting and so I never developed a taste for game.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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The feature article of Scientific America this month, King of Beasts sheds some light on the meat issue? Many of Homo Sapiens evolved traits (longevity and large brains) are attributed to meat eating and diverging from the vegetarian diets of ancestral cousins.
Muscle building is far easier with meat eating since carnotine a necessary ingredient exists in plants at about 1% of what it does in red meat.
Yes Werner, all our ancestors behaved like stupid Americans, and they evolved with genes better suited for eating cooked food & MEAT.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Solution: STOP BREEDING.
word^^^
Anyhow, I'm an omnivore working for a vegetarian market so I get both sides. Fake meats can actually be pretty tasty. ex:Our restaurant makes a vegan-Rueben that tastes better than any meat Ruben I've ever had. But... reality is that for a lot of us, our genetics demand animal protein to function. I shell out the dough for organic/grassfed/free range and avoid the icky mass-market meat.
Side rant: Raising cattle in the western United States is completely wasteful. Stolen water is sold to subsidized farmers to grow crops in the desert...to feed huge cows... in the desert, wasting even more stolen water. It's complete insanity. It boggles the mind. Chickens and pigs waste less resources. I've read that rabbits actually give you the most yield for the least amount of feed/water/investment per animal.
EAT BUNNY!
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
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For example, a single pound of cooked beef, a family meal’s worth of hamburgers, requires 298 square feet of land, 27 pounds of feed, and 211 gallons of water.
I was wondering if there could be some significant gains if the meat (isn't meat just dead flesh?) was not cooked?
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Deekaid
climber
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Okay , Just saying cutting down on meat or eating fake meat could just save the planet!
The planet will be fine, we will be gone.
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Cragar
Trad climber
MSLA - MT
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meat is tasy. I can't imagine not getting truck tacos or Basque when in the Bakes. Larb is my favorite Thai.
I did cut my meat to only Fridays and lost roughly 20lbs in the process. I did it to feel better and after seeing cattle allotments(in the Sierras, AZ, UT, MT, ID) and learning more about them via the NEPA, I want(ed) nothing or very little to do with them. To each their own. This works well when humility can be brought into each's own!!
Chickpeas are a complete protein.
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Cragar
Trad climber
MSLA - MT
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Only if toasted over a dung fire. Where is the best dung?
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tornado
climber
lawrence kansas
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[Click to View YouTube Video]
Nice to see you can be so picky about what you eat. A large portion of the rest of the world does not have that privelege.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Cragar,
the measure of "a complete protein" is a necessary condition to good nutrition but the measure falls short in that we need the nine essential aminos in ratios different than what plants make their protein ratios.
Furthermore, the the assumption that all is well if get these aminos within 24 hours all is well is simply an uninformed belief. When an essential amino is not to be found that metabolic process is put on hold. Under such scarcities recovery is slower than if we had all nine amino at hand in quantities we need.
But you can still produce dopamine so you can get a good feeling with your ideas even with these typical amino shortages but you will not be pulling as hard as soon.
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Cragar
Trad climber
MSLA - MT
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Hey Dingus-
Yeah, they are low in a couple aminos so the ratio makes them not complete? I'll have to look that up. Thanks for the response. I wasn't trying to say that they are the only. I eat hella nuts, legumes, veggies and yogurt to get my needs. There are ways to get protein instead of meat, that is what I meant. Again, to each their own. No preaching from me!! I like ~experience~! Plus, it is hunting season so I'll be getting elk and speedgoat here shortly. I don't get your last sentence. Maybe it was a sophmoric cut?
Happy Jack got any snow?
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Cragar
Trad climber
MSLA - MT
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khanom-
You must be talking about the pink tofu elephant in the room.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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For example, a single pound of cooked beef, a family meal’s worth of hamburgers, requires 298 square feet of land, 27 pounds of feed, and 211 gallons of water.
Supplying meat not only devours resources but also creates waste. That same pound of hamburger requires more than 4,000 Btus of fossil-fuel energy to get to the dinner table;
This is an interesting topic to me.
One reason is that the numbers don't seem to add up. Let's summarize:
Why does the cost of:
298 square feet of land
27 pounds of feed
211 gallons of water
4,000 BTU's of energy
Not equal the cost of 1 lb of hamburger?
I mean, if that is actually the cost, then the commercial price of the hamburger should be at least double, accounting for profit at every level.
(the land I get, but not the consumables)
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TheTye
Trad climber
Sacramento CA
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Cheap due to heavy ag subsidies maybe?
Anyhow. The trick is to eat less meat. And try and choose sustainable raised options. "Yea but not everybody can afford to do that... " well if you aren't making meat the centerpeice of every meal then you can...
It's better for your body and a good way to vote with your fork to not support awful farming practices.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Forget meat, the future is cricket:
http://chapul.com/
I've had them, they are no worse than most other protein/energy bars I've had.
I'd be all for genetic engineering that could make crickets taste like steak or bacon.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Cragar,
we got snow in Laramie, 5 or 6 inches, so did Happy Jack, while skiing is possible I don't known whether the skating track has been groomed.
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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
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Right now have a nice pork loin roast in my slow cooker and boy does it smell yummy, can't wait for dinner tonight:-)
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plasticluvr
Gym climber
ft lauderdale fl
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2013 - 07:01pm PT
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I agree it is not so much about the meat as it is about cruelty to animals.
If you buy free range animals that have not been mistreated then you can eat meat with a clear conscious.
I also agree, why not try to eat mostly organic veggies? You can get all the protein you need from plants.
Things like this should not go on!!!
Speak Out Against Walmart's Cruelty to Pigs
Petition by
MERCY FOR ANIMALS
Do you think it’s acceptable to cram an animal into a crate so small she can’t even turn around, lie down comfortably, walk, run, play, or engage in other basic behaviors? Walmart does.
In fact, the pork sold at Walmart comes from factory farms where pregnant pigs spend nearly their entire lives locked in narrow, metal gestation crates—cages barely larger than their own bodies.
How do I know? Because I’ve seen it with my own eyes. I am an investigator with Mercy For Animals, and for more than two months I worked undercover at Christensen Farms, a factory farm that supplies pork to Walmart. The misery and abuse that I witnessed at this factory farm will haunt me for the rest of my life.
Thousands of pregnant pigs were confined to barren metal crates barely larger than their own bodies. These pigs could not turn around. They could not walk. They could not even lie down comfortably. I saw pigs with open wounds and bloody pressure sores from rubbing against the bars of their metal cages or lying on hard concrete. Pigs would constantly ram their heads against their tiny stalls or spend day after day, hour after hour, biting the bars of their cages out of frustration. These intelligent and social animals would go insane from boredom and stress.
While all of the abuses I witnessed at Christensen Farms were horrific, the use of gestation crates for pregnant pigs is perhaps the cruelest factory farming practice in the world. In fact, gestation crates are so cruel they have been banned in nine US states, as well as in the entire European Union.
Recognizing their inherent cruelty, major food providers, including McDonald’s, Burger King, Wendy’s, and Chipotle, and major grocery retailers, including Safeway, Kroger, Kmart, Costco and Whole Foods, have all started demanding their suppliers do away with these cruel crates. But Walmart continue to support blatant animal abuse by selling pork from suppliers who confine pigs in tiny crates.
I am asking that you help the pigs whose suffering I witnessed, as well as the millions of others across the nation who are subjected to similar abuses. Please take a moment to sign my petition urging Walmart to do the right thing and demand their pork suppliers stop confining pigs in cruel gestation crates.
Thank you.
“John”
Undercover Investigator
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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P eople
E ating
T asty
A nimals
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Pennsylenvy
Gym climber
A dingy corner in your refrigerator
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Biggest troll this month so far, or biggest idiot....carry on
plasticluvr
Gym climber
ft lauderdale fl
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
I agree it is not so much about the meat as it is about cruelty to animals.
If you buy free range animals that have not been mistreated then you can eat meat with a clear conscious.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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We've had way better trolls.
Edit- ok this troll is looking much better now that Jim B is here!
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Vegan girls don't swallow.
Next!
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froodish
Social climber
Portland, Oregon
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If all meat eaters went veggie what would be the impact?
About 9x more efficiency. Animals capture about 10% of the input given to them.
Disclaimer: I've been a veg for about 30 years, mostly for environmental reasons. In short, one word: entropy.
I'm not militant about it. To each his own, but really, growing grain to feed to cattle so you can eat the cattle is terribly inefficient.
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MisterE
climber
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You Kaptha types just don't get the Pitha/Vatha thing:
WE NEED MEAT!
;)
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Elmer Gantry last lectured us on the energy costs of eating red meat but our cars consume far more gas than the meat industry. Plasticluvr, how about putting your focus where a change is possible and the results significant.
What is economic freedom? being able to spend a $ on what we want and attempting to produce what will sell.
Long before the Buddha emerged, or Christ was born or the Rig Veda was written our ancestral genes evolved and like it not all of our ancestors somewhere in that African lineage Killled Animals to Eat Meat. Now chimpanzees chew on fibers for 6 hr of there 13 hr waking part of day and they live a short life. A recent study concluded vegas live 3 mo. longer than meat eaters.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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growing grain to feed to cattle so you can eat the cattle is terribly inefficient.
Growing it to make fuel for your car is even less efficient.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Good thing it's elk season here right now. I just don't think your statistics of land, water and fossil fuels applies in the woods.
mmmmmm, backstraps. otherwise known as TENDERLOINS
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pc
climber
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I'm all for good alternatives...
I tried veggie jerky, teryaki, last night...
...... Almost inspired a Bulgemelon post from me...
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pb
Sport climber
Sonora Ca
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oh...I thought we were gonna slag Whitemeat
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Will also let you know you are pond scum for getting your dog from a reputable breeder rather than a rescue.
She is superior to you , bow down.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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From a brutally objective point of view, a vasectomy is one of the "greenest" things you can do. The even more "green" things than that involve either mass murder or suicide. Perhaps it is best to not take limiting your carbon footprint too seriously, or to judge other's by theirs too much, the logical conclusions are disturbing.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Do you stereotype with both hands at once?
I personally could not care if you eat chimpanzee or a chunk of kale.
Not my business. The stereotype of the vegan preaching is unfortunately a truth. Having lived in Boulder many years and having worked in the natural food industry, I have many vege and vegan friends. I spent probably 10 years practicing some form of a " meat free life style" before deciding on a diet that is right for me.
In my experience many vegans want to be recognized and commended for their enlightened approach to diet. I have run across many holy'r than thou vegans. Maybe this is a result of spending too much time in Boulder but I found the same attitude living in SF too so... Anyway, to each his own.
I personally believe in the Michael Pollan approach to diet. “Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants."
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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+1 “Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants."
Generally an animals teeth will tell you what their proper diet is. The above quote basically fits our teeth.
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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This is not my area.
Why is meat so cheap and produce so expensive comparably? What am I missing?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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There is something ironic in the fact that most people here on the taco stand are deeply concerned about global warming, which they believe is (somehow) caused by and thus reversible by human activities, yet these same people don't seem to see any connection concerning global dietary trends.
For consistency, such people should be concerned about the mowing down of the rainforests, and I would assume that such people are indeed thus concerned. However....
http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/blog/forests/how-cattle-ranching-chewing-amazon-rainforest-20090129
The commercial cattle industry continues to grow, as demand increases worldwide. The irony I referred to is that we are literally swapping out huge swaths of CO2-scrubbing rainforest (plus all the unknown benefits there that we have not even discovered) for CO2 (and other greenhouse-gas)-producing cattle.
The scale at which this is being done is particularly concerning in the context of global warming concerns. Even swapping out rainforest for soya is concerning, but at least you are much more greenhouse-gas-neutral than the forest-for-cattle swap we're currently getting.
Just another piece of the very complicated puzzle.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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The solution to reverse global warming is going to take far more co2 and methane reduction that what we'll get by going veggie head.
How abut a lithium ion battery that can hold 10 times the present charge density and switching to nuclear power?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Why is meat so cheap and produce so expensive comparably? What am I missing?
At least part of the answer involves federal subsidies, with (by far) the largest share of subsidy dollars going to the production of animal feed....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy#United_States
Another significant factor is the scale upon which various agricultural activities occur. The cattle industry (especially considered as including the acreage devoted to producing feed) utterly dwarfs the production of, say, tomatoes and other food items that would be commonly thought of a "produce."
So, salads just cost more per pound than does beef. Again: very complicated puzzle with many (sometimes moving) pieces.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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seems Vegans fart A LOT! Methane release certainly larger for them. When the personal greenhouse taxes are levied,, i hope they realize that one!;-)
ROFL....
Ron, we agree about a lot, most times. But if you think that vegan-farts compare to deforestation (and the mega-acres of new cattle, all farting), well, I'll have to hunt down, shoot, and eat YOU myself! Gene-pool issues in play with that too!
You haven't bred yet, have you? If you have, I'll have to deal with your spoor as well.
LOL
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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ROFL....
I mean: spew through my nose laughing. Almost destroyed a keyboard over that.
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Thanks Madbolter1 and Khanom for explanations. (I made my comment on my phone and missed many posts here.) It IS complicated.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Why is meat so cheap and produce so expensive comparably? What am I missing?
Subsidies are a factor and they impact the price of both meat and produce delivered to your friendly large chain grocery store. Weather also plays a big role in produce costs.
Seasonality of produce and transportation(fuel) costs are a big percentage of the per lb price of just about everything that is not " local" grown.
That tasty organic berry you are eating frequently starts a long way from its origin and has traveled great distances while burning fuel to get to your table in the middle of a ( place that is not Mexico or the Central Valley of CA)) winter. MMMM, that banana is good. Chances are it was not grown in the Central Valley lol.
Ultimately, the world population needs cheap and sustainable (contradiction?) animal based protein to survive.
The problem is that we as human race eat too much meat. We are out of balance.
Also, GM foods and Monsanto are evil and we are all gonna die!
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plasticluvr
Gym climber
ft lauderdale fl
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
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I agree with Climbski2 “Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants."
Lighter is better especially for climbing.
I also agree with WBraun,
All that violence against those living beings comes back as violence in endless wars.
Stupid Americans have no clue what they're doing .....
Don't you think it is important that the animals you eat have not been tortured their whole lives?
Why not pay more for free range and eat less meat and eggs.
Also throwing away less food is important at least 10 percent of food purchased gets thrown away.
If we could just do that we would contribute less greenhouse gasses to the atmosphere. It's a start anyhow.
We might sleep better at night too!
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froodish
Social climber
Portland, Oregon
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Re: pricing. Yes factory meat is subsidized in many ways, some direct like government subsidies for grain and below market rate water and grazing land; some indirect like externalities that are not bourne directly by the producers and consumers (what is the cost to society of antibiotic-resistant E. coli?)
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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I agree with Climbski2 “Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants."
You are actually agreeing with author Michael Pollan. In Defense of Food and The Omnivores Dilemma are good reads.
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froodish
Social climber
Portland, Oregon
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But the environmental impact is clearly every bit as bad as meat raised at CAFOs
Sorry, but that's simply not true. Cattle are just not as efficient at storing energy. All thing being equal, calorie for calorie, meat is less efficient and you're living in a dream world if you think we can produce enough meat to fulfill the current (not to mention growing) demand for meat on small integrated farms.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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I only eat grass fed vegetarians from local sources plus all the fish I can catch.
Khanom is on the right path, I can hear tomatoes scream when I pick them.
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WBraun
climber
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In the old days 99% of the people were vegetarians and lived 100,000 years.
Protein comes from milk.
Stupid Americans can barely live 80 years now ......
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TheTye
Trad climber
Sacramento CA
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WBraun- That av life span is being propped up by using massive amounts of reactionary medicine to treat problems caused by unhealthy lifestyles that are preventable through diet much of the time... Let that common american diet run free without the help of modern pharmaceuticals and see where that lifespan heads...
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froodish
Social climber
Portland, Oregon
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khanom, I think we're mostly in agreement. Perhaps you missed the part where I said: "current (and growing) demand" for meat.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Oh look, a deer/elk/cow--click, click, boom! Meat.
How about the TIME that it takes to produce Produce...
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karen roseme
Mountain climber
san diego
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The meat industry is one of the top contributors to climate change, directly and indirectly producing about 14.5 percent of the world’s anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions, and global meat consumption is on the rise.
People generally like eating meat—when poor people start making more money, they almost invariably start buying more meat.
As the population grows and eats more animal products, the consequences for climate change, pollution, and land use could be catastrophic.
Attempts to reduce meat consumption usually focus on baby steps—Meatless Monday and “vegan before 6,” passable fake chicken, and in vitro burgers.
If the world is going to eat less meat, it’s going to have to be coaxed and cajoled into doing it, according to conventional wisdom.
But what if the convincing were the easy part? Suppose everyone in the world voluntarily stopped eating meat, en masse. I know it’s not actually going to happen.
But the best-case scenario from a climate perspective would be if all 7 billion of us woke up one day and realized that PETA was right all along. If this collective change of spirit came to pass, like Peter Singer’s dearest fantasy come true, what would the ramifications be?
At least one research team has run the numbers on what global veganism would mean for the planet. In 2009 researchers from the Netherlands Environmental Assessment Agency published their projections of the greenhouse gas consequences if humanity came to eat less meat, no meat, or no animal products at all.
The researchers predicted that universal veganism would reduce agriculture-related carbon emissions by 17 percent, methane emissions by 24 percent, and nitrous oxide emissions by 21 percent by 2050.
Universal vegetarianism would result in similarly impressive reductions in greenhouse gas emissions. What’s more, the Dutch researchers found that worldwide vegetarianism or veganism would achieve these gains at a much lower cost than a purely energy-focused intervention involving carbon taxes and renewable energy technology.
The upshot: Universal eschewal of meat wouldn’t single-handedly stave off global warming, but it would go a long way toward mitigating climate change.
The Dutch researchers didn’t take into account what else might happen if everyone gave up meat. “In this scenario study we have ignored possible socio-economic implications such as the effect of health changes on GDP and population numbers,” wrote Elke Stehfest and her colleagues.
“We have not analyzed the agro-economic consequences of the dietary changes and its implications; such consequences might not only involve transition costs, but also impacts on land prices. The costs that are associated with this transition might obviously offset some of the gains discussed here.”
Indeed. If the world actually did collectively go vegetarian or vegan over the course of a decade or two, it’s reasonable to think the economy would tank.
According to “Livestock’s Long Shadow,” the influential 2006 U.N. report about meat’s devastating environmental effects, livestock production accounts for 1.4 percent of the world’s total GDP.
The production and sale of animal products account for 1.3 billion people’s jobs, and 987 million of those people are poor. If demand for meat were to disappear overnight, those people’s livelihoods would disappear, and they would have to find new ways of making money.
Now, some of them—like the industrial farmers who grow the corn that currently goes to feed animals on factory farms—would be in a position to adapt by shifting to in-demand plant-based food production.
Others, namely the “huge number of people involved in livestock for lack of an alternative, particularly in Africa and Asia,” would probably be out of luck. (Things would be better for the global poor involved in the livestock trade if everyone continued to consume other animal products, such as eggs, milk, and wool, than if everyone decided to go vegan.)
As the economy adjusted to the sudden lack of demand for meat products, we would expect to see widespread suffering and social unrest.
A second major ramification of global vegetarianism would be expanses of new land available. Currently, grazing land for ruminants—cows and their kin—accounts for a staggering 26 percent of the world’s ice-free land surface.
The Dutch scientists predict that 2.7 billion hectares (about 10.4 million square miles) of that grazing land would be freed up by global vegetarianism, along with 100 million hectares (about 386,000 square miles) of land that’s currently used to grow crops for livestock.
Not all of this land would be suitable for humans, but surely it stands to reason that this sudden influx of new territory would make land much cheaper on the whole.
A third major ramification of global vegetarianism would be that the risk of antibiotic-resistant infections would plummet.
Currently, the routine use of antibiotics in animal farming to promote weight gain and prevent illness in unsanitary conditions is a major contributor to antibiotic resistance.
Last year the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention announced that at least 2 million Americans fall ill from antibiotic-resistant pathogens every year and declared that “much of antibiotic use in animals is unnecessary and inappropriate and makes everyone less safe.”
The overprescription of antibiotics for humans plays a big role in antibiotic resistance, but eradicating the factory farms from which many antibiotic-resistant bacteria emerge would make it more likely that we could continue to count on antibiotics to cure serious illnesses.
(For a sense of what a “post-antibiotics future” would look like, read Maryn McKenna’s amazing article on the topic for Medium and her story about a possible solution for chicken farming in Slate.)
So what would be the result, in an all-vegetarian world, of the combination of widespread unemployment and economic disruption, millions of square miles of available land, and a lowered risk of antibiotic-resistant gonorrhea?
I can only conclude that people would band together to form communes in order to escape capitalism’s ruthlessness, squat on the former pasture land, and adopt a lifestyle of free love.
I kid. Mostly. It’s easy to get carried away when you’re speculating about unlikely scenarios—and sudden intercontinental vegetarianism is very much an unlikely scenario.
But if the result of a worldwide shift to a plant-based diet sounds like a right-winger’s worst nightmare, it’s worth pointing out that continuing to eat as much meat as we currently do promises to result in a left-winger’s worst nightmare: In a world of untrammeled global warming, where disastrous weather events are routine, global conflicts will increase, only the wealthy will thrive, and the poor will suffer.
Let’s try a middle path. We’re not all going to become vegetarians, but most of us can stop giving our money to factory farms—the biggest and worst offenders, from a pollution and public health perspective.
We can eat less meat than we currently do, especially meat from methane-releasing ruminants (cattle, sheep, goats, etc.).
Just because a sudden global conversion to vegetarianism would have jarring effects doesn’t mean we can’t gradually reduce our consumption of meat, giving the market time to adjust. We not only can; we must. After all, with the world’s population slated to grow to 9 billion by 2050, we’ll be needing to take some of the 25 percent of the world’s land area back from the cows.
Read more: http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/feed_the_world/2014/05/meat_eating_and_climate_change_vegetarians_impact_on_the_economy_antibiotics.html#ixzz30knpagRd
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Anyone who eats meat, yet is unwilling to be eaten by other animals, does not have the right attitude.
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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One sign of intelligence is the ability to accept that one's own behavior can be wrong. One sign of a small mind is the need to justify one's own behavior as good.
How do you handle cognitive dissonance?
( in plain speak: Don't believe your own bullsh#t.)
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Perspective, people, perspective.
Like most everything else, eating meat is not the problem. You're wasting your time blabbing about the perils of eating meat.
The real problem is that the earth's population is rising exponentially.
Nothing that you say or do will matter until you control the population explosion. We can do this only if we all concentrate on advancing women's rights.
Quit wasting time telling me that I'm a bad boy for having steak.
The right to choose must be advanced world-wide. The poorer the country, the important the efforts must be.
Women must have the right to choose where and when to have sex.
Women must have the right to choose if and when they use birth control.
Women must have the right to chose to terminate their pregnancy if they desire to do so.
And Republicans have to get their fingers out of women's panties. Old white men in suits have no right to force their religious beliefs on anyone else.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Drum circle hippies at it again, meat causing global warming
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Sanskara
climber
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You I'll never convince a meat eater the truth about meat..
Just like you will never convince the guy with his dog off leash that his dog is not a joy to everyone it meets and does mo harm.
FYI I have two dogs..
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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only an as5hole puts bacon on seafood.
You've never had Hatteras Clam Chowder, have you?
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froodish
Social climber
Portland, Oregon
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meat causing global warming
If you're not a denier that humans are changing the climate, I don't see how this can in any way be controversial.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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In the old days 99% of the people were vegetarians and lived 100,000 years.
Protein comes from milk.
Stupid Americans can barely live 80 years now ......
Get your facts straight.
100,000 years was middle age for Alorus, first king of Babylon. He lived to see 162,000.
He wasn't even the oldest Babylonian King.
But that got screwed up when the Sons of God started Schtooping the daughters of men.
Nobody got past Methuselah's 969 after that. Nothing to do with diet.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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I wonder how they factor in deaths in the USA by car accidents, Murders and Drug overdoses. I would think a biger factor than people that eat chicken, fish, beef and pork.
. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
Look at infant mortality. Probably skews the numbers.The USA is only 34th in the World right now in that stat.
Also not diet, just affordable health care.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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FACT: Vegetarians are healthier and live longer then non-vegetarians.
Eat all the meat you want, no skin off my ass.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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People with the longest life expectancies and concurrent high quality of life are from:
Andorra—the mountainous region between France and Spain
Vilcamba Valley—the Andes mountains in Ecuador
Himalayas—the Hunzas in Pakistan are the 3rd longest-living group of people
Abkhasians and Georgians live in a mountainous region near the Black Sea in Russia
Macau in Southern China
Okinawa
Japan
Singapore
San Marino, a nation state in Italy
Hong Kong
Australia
France
Canada
Switzerland
Sweden
These groups have some general commonalities concerning their diet.
Diversity
80,000 different edible species of plant foods have been identified. 3,000 have been commonly used throughout human history. 150 plant species are widely cultivated and yet just 3—corn, soy and wheat–account for 60% of the world’s food supply.
These subsidized crops are usually highly processed and refined and are contributing to the development of food allergies worldwide. We were never meant to rely on such a small range of foods and doing so puts us at severe risk both health-wise and environmentally.
Long-lived peoples eat a wide variety of foods and eat seasonally.
Japan’s recommended dietary intake is to eat 30 different varieties of food every day. Hong Kong, Macau and Singapore are some of the world’s largest seaports containing richly diverse cuisines from all over the world.
Fish
Fish is a very common staple in diets of the long-living. Whether they live in the mountains or by the sea, trade for fermented fish paste or eat brook trout, these cultures value fish in their diets. What is important to remember here is that the fish these cultures eat is, for the most part, wild-caught, not farmed.
Whole Grains
Many of these people live in isolated regions that are as yet unaffected by the expansion of the Western diet and its processed and refined grain products. Buckwheat noodles are a staple in Japan, grasses are part of the Abkhasian and Hunza diets, the Swiss eat dark breads. Pulsed, sprouted and fermented grains are part of these traditional diets.
Plant Foods
Vegetables, fruits, nuts and berries are found in abundance in these cultures’ diets. Long-living people eat natural and organic plant foods regularly that are free of pesticides and herbicides.
Animal Protein/Fats
Contrary to popular belief, longevity doesn’t belong in the vegetarian domain. These people do eat a large quantity of herbs, fruits and vegetables, but animal products play a large role in their diets. Meats, cheeses, butters, yogurts and lard are staple components in these diets. These animals are grass-fed, free-range and respected.
Dairy
Cultured dairy products are also another commonality with these groups. But the dairy products consumed are cultured by the people themselves in many cases, so they don’t consume the pasteurized and compromised products we do in the West.
Probiotics
Traditional diets all contain fermented products of some kind. Pulsed grains, fermented drinks, fish sauces, yogurt, pickled vegetables or cured meat—necessary methods of preservation–have made natural probiotics a common part of these diets.
Tea
Tea is another universal part of traditional diets. Herbal tonics and other brewed plant drinks are common to all long-lived cultures.
These cultures are also characterized by communal values and social interaction, meditative practices and moderate daily physical activity. Their nutritional choices are based on traditional wisdom—not TV. They eat what their ancestors have eaten for generations—not what commercial messages advertise as cheap and convenient.
http://draxe.com/the-worlds-longest-living-cultures/
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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FACT: Vegetarians are healthier and live longer then non-vegetarians.
Association does not imply causation.
Vegetarians may be healthier and live longer for reasons unrelated to a vegetarian diet.
Besides....
Remember those 20 years you added to your life through healthy living? Well, these are them:
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Return to the roots??? Aka cannibalism?
Long pig has to be cooked slow.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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any study purporting to show that vegetarians/carnivores/omnivores live longer, healthier lives, at a minimum needs to control for income.
the best diet for living long/healthy isn't vegetarian or paleo or whatever -- it's the diet having enough money to buy food that's not junk
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karen roseme
Mountain climber
san diego
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Meatless Mondays
Why Meatless?
Going meatless once a week may reduce your risk of chronic preventable conditions like cancer, cardiovascular disease, diabetes and obesity. It can also help reduce your carbon footprint and save precious resources like fresh water and fossil fuel.
Read about these benefits below. But keep in mind that just going meatless is not enough. That’s why we give you the information you need to add healthy, environmentally friendly meat-free alternatives to your diet each week. Further, if you do eat meat on other days, we strongly recommend grass-fed, hormone-free, locally-raised options whenever possible.
Health Benefits
LIMIT CANCER RISK: Hundreds of studies suggest that diets high in fruits and vegetables may reduce cancer risk. Both red and processed meat consumption are associated with colon cancer.
REDUCE HEART DISEASE: Recent data from a Harvard University study found that replacing saturated fat-rich foods (for example, meat and full fat dairy) with foods that are rich in polyunsaturated fat (for example, vegetable oils, nuts and seeds) reduces the risk of heart disease by 19%
FIGHT DIABETES: Research suggests that higher consumption of red and processed meat increase the risk of type 2 diabetes.
CURB OBESITY: People on low-meat or vegetarian diets have significantly lower body weights and body mass indices. A recent study from Imperial College London also found that reducing overall meat consumption can prevent long-term weight gain.
LIVE LONGER: Red and processed meat consumption is associated with increases in total mortality, cancer mortality and cardiovascular disease mortality.
IMPROVE YOUR DIET. Consuming beans or peas results in higher intakes of fiber, protein, folate, zinc, iron and magnesium with lower intakes of saturated fat and total fat.
Environmental Benefits
REDUCE YOUR CARBON FOOTPRINT. The United Nations’ Food and Agriculture Organization estimates the meat industry generates nearly one-fifth of the man-made greenhouse gas emissions that are accelerating climate change worldwide . . . far more than transportation. And annual worldwide demand for meat continues to grow. Reining in meat consumption once a week can help slow this trend.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Why is fish not considered meat.....it's not grown in a garden.
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dirtbag
climber
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The truth about meat is that it tastes good!
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Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
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My god.
Gaaaah.
There's a TV programme right now named "The United States of Bacon", and it's gross. Absolutely disgusting.
It's about fat people who eat food which drips fat everywhere. And it's not a show...
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Bad Climber
climber
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Thanks, Lorenzo, for that reality check up thread. Vegetarians might live longer than the average American slob eating the standard American diet, acronym, appropriately, SAD, but eating grass-fed/pastured animals and their products (milk/cheese/eggs) is associated with greater longevity so long as the diet is paired with all that other good stuff you listed. The most recent book I read on nutrition is wonderful and gets into the reading of studies, how to decipher the buzz and get to the truth. Hint: correlation ain't causation.
Check it out: Death by Food Pyramid by Denise Minger
Great stuff--fun to read, too. Btw, she's a recovering vegan.
Carry on! my wayward sons and daughters....
BAd
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Our brains evolved because we ate meat.
Grew larger figuring out how to get more meat.
haven't studied it, but I believe this to be true, as I heard an evolutionary biologist make this point without the usual fire-and-brimstone associated with a guy just guessing or wanting it to be true (the guy tossed it off as an aside; it wasn't germane to the talk he was giving, and he didn't go off on a spiel). And by the way, my diet is 98% vegetarian (i.e. I have chicken or steak maybe twice a month).
Consuming beans or peas results in higher intakes of fiber, protein, folate, zinc, iron and magnesium with lower intakes of saturated fat and total fat.
Environmental Benefits
"beans or peas" have greater protein and iron than meat? making this statement is quite literally incredible. You have no credibility.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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America is fat becoming a failed state in the OP facts.
A turn away from most efficient/profitable methods to the most efficient/most sustainable methods of everything... not just farming.
But that is America... it thinks it does no wrong and it will not be given pointers on how to work with the planet in order to provide the most food most sustainably.
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karen roseme
Mountain climber
Bishop
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Jul 22, 2014 - 06:20am PT
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If you want to slow climate change, white meat may be the right meat, according to two studies that tally the environmental effect of the beef industry.
Raising cattle in the U.S. requires 28 times as much land and 11 times as much irrigation water, and pumps at least five times as much planet-warming gases into Earth's atmosphere than producing the equivalent calories of dairy products, poultry, pork or eggs, according to a study published online Monday in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
And from 1961 to 2010, worldwide emissions of planet-warming gases from livestock increased 51%, with the bulk of the increases coming from developing nations that are rapidly adopting the U.S. model of meat consumption, according to another study published Monday in the journal Climatic Change.
“For people, the obvious answer is: whenever possible, replace beef with something else," said Gidon Eshel, a geophysicist at Bard College and lead author of the study in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. "If you really need it to be from animal sources, that’s still OK. You can still have bacon and eggs and whatever you want. As long as it’s not beef, you have always made a significant step forward, because beef is so much more intensive than the rest.”
The beef industry, not surprisingly, is not impressed.
"The PNAS study represents a gross over-simplification of the complex systems that make up the beef value chain, a point which the authors acknowledge," Kim Stackhouse-Lawson, director of sustainability research for the National Cattlemen's Beef Assn., said in a statement. "The fact is the U.S. beef industry produces beef with lower greenhouse gas emissions than any other country."
Indeed, emissions from developed countries, such as the United States, topped out in 1970 and have decreased 23%, according to the study published in Climatic Change. But emissions more than doubled in developing countries, largely the result of domestic consumption, said Ken Caldeira, a Carnegie Institution ecologist and co-author of the study, which estimated production of methane and nitrous oxide by 11 livestock populatons in 237 countries.
Beef cattle produced more than half the emissions, followed by dairy cattle (17%), sheep (9%), buffalo (7%), pigs (5%) and goats (4%), according to the Climate Change study. The largest increases came in Congo, the Central African Republic and Oman, the study found.
"More and more of the developing world is adopting the bad habits of the developed world,” Caldeira said.
Caldeira said his study amounts to a broad "rule of thumb" estimate using rough emission factors developed by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. But its conclusions parallel those of several other studies, according to the report.
The Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences study took a narrower but deeper look at the U.S. industrialized food chain and considered more factors, including the effects of grazing, raising feed crops and the use of irrigaton water.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 22, 2014 - 09:10am PT
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want to slow climate change?
stop having kids.
the OP has a point about meat consumption and the toll it takes, but it is minuscule compared to reproducing yourselff, and again, and again...
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karen roseme
Mountain climber
Bishop
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Jul 22, 2014 - 05:05pm PT
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want to slow climate change?
stop having kids.
Absolutely f*#king right!
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 22, 2014 - 05:09pm PT
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The truth about meat is that meat tastes good. "Bon apetit" is French for "Crispy bacon is good shittt."
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Why do I have incisors? What do the teeth of an animal tell you about it's proper diet?
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goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा
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karen roseme
want to slow climate change?
stop having kids.
Absolutely f*#king right!
If only your parents were so wise.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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For most that I know, vegetarianism is an ethical issue first and foremost. I still eat meat, I actually ate red meat for the first time in two months today. Not the best experience, though I was craving it and it tasted great.
We are omnivores, but when science and understanding of health progresses to a point where we don't need meat to maintain a healthy, balanced diet, I'm left wondering why I even dabble in meat.
Yeah, it tastes great when prepared well. But, so do so many other things that weren't mammals before they were consumed.
I'll continue to eat meat on a rare occasion for the time being, but savory delicious food can be found from plants just as easily as it can from animals.
I'm pretty sure that it's cultural conditioning. Try a veggie diet for a week and check back. Legumes, grains, veggies, there are so many amazing flavors to show your palate. You may miss chewing on a piece of meat, but like I said, it's cultural conditioning.
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karen roseme
Mountain climber
Bishop
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No Animal should live like this!
How could any animal living in these conditions be healthy for you to eat?
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goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा
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No Animal should live like this!
Looks like California.
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karen roseme
Mountain climber
Bishop
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Nice link Goatboy
These are veal crates.
Most of these calves will stay in these crates their entire lives until they are slaughtered to make veal
Indications are that calves confined in crates experience "chronic stress" & require more medication than calves living in more spacious conditions, thereby making veal the most likely meat to contain drug residues
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goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा
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I don't know anyone that eats veal. What's your point Karen?
Are you only capable of seeing black and white in this discussion?
The past 100 years of agriculture cattle, chicken and pig farming is abhorrent, no one is arguing that fact. You are lumping all meat eaters into some moral low ground category, trying to guilt and shame us that eating meat is wrong while ignoring the abundant options of sustainable and healthy practices.
You will win more people over to your line of thought if you realize the human race will never stop eating meat. You're just going to have to deal with that fact. If you want to help, you can educate folks on supporting farmers that provide an alternative to the cruelty caused by the corporate meat industry.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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karen roseme
Mountain climber
Bishop
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Aug 14, 2014 - 04:13pm PT
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well Put khanom,
I guess I'll say it again:
You have choices when you buy food. You can buy vegetables grown by industrial operations -- conventional or organic, which are unsustainable and cause massive environmental damage. Or you can buy them from a source you know and are capable of assessing as sustainable and causing minimal environmental impact. You can buy vegetables that are grown thousands of miles away or you can buy them from a local farm.
What is true for your veggies is also true for your meat.
ANYTHING you buy in a grocery store, be it Vons or Whole Paycheck, is produced unsustainably on an industrial scale. Period.
My point Goatboy is that people should know how the animal lived that they are eating.
How can any animal that has suffered so much be good for anyone?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Aug 14, 2014 - 04:40pm PT
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My mother thought that eating a steak for breakfast would help me in an upcoming swimming competition in high school days.I liked the thought and it was a really good steak, broiled with onions.
It doesn't matter what the nutritional dynamics are at 17 years old because you are a voracious appetite on two legs that eats anything put in front of you.
And swimming worked it all off, yet still I had spare energy.
The truth about old guys reminiscing: "I have never eaten goat meat and don't intend to do so.". --GBS
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Captain...or Skully
climber
in the oil patch...Fricken Bakken, that's where
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Aug 14, 2014 - 04:50pm PT
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I have a butcher in Boise, that I go to. Everything is local AND real. No grocery store meat in MY freezer.
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lars johansen
Trad climber
West Marin, CA
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Aug 14, 2014 - 04:52pm PT
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The forbidden fruit in the garden of eden was not an apple. It was BACON!
lars
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Aug 14, 2014 - 04:59pm PT
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"How did the bacon get in the tree?"
"It's a Jewish bible, isn't it? Bacon's not allowed. What's up with that?"
"And if the Devil isn't Jewish, what is he?"
I want the truth, Mommie.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
in the oil patch...Fricken Bakken, that's where
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Aug 14, 2014 - 05:01pm PT
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Meat ain't about that shizz, dude. It's like mixing metaphors.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Aug 14, 2014 - 08:28pm PT
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Funny how opinions shift over 50 some odd years.
When I was but a ween living in one of our original states many of our neighbors and schoolmates routinely ate squirrels sustainably shot from local backyard trees.
However, as a societal class, "squirrel eaters" were barely one step above "possum munchers" and awful damn close to "roadkill rustlers" as far the food chain was concerned. Scorn was abundant.
Five decades later all of the Kool Kids' now spout about "local this", "free range that", "farm to table" and organic organic organic.
I feel redeemed by this shift in attitude.
Now I can finally talk with pride to my youngers about growing up on the front line of "tree to plate" and "road to roasting pan".
Thank you FoodTV.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
in the oil patch...Fricken Bakken, that's where
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Aug 14, 2014 - 08:33pm PT
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I'll eat tree squirrel. I hafta be seriously hungry to eat ground squirrels.
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coastal_climber
Trad climber
BC
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Aug 14, 2014 - 08:59pm PT
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Celery screams when it's ripped out of the ground. I kill animals and eat them. Go order a venti mochafrappachino.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 28, 2015 - 07:19am PT
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Save the oceans....eat more chicken!
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skitch
climber
East of Heaven
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Feb 28, 2015 - 07:52am PT
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I figure I have 2 choices: have kids or eat meat.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Feb 28, 2015 - 12:37pm PT
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I used to hang out with a nice harpsichord player in New York. She was attractive and a top notch musician. Needless to say she got lots of work. I asked her if she ever played the piano. "Playing the piano is like eating meat."
FWIW there are people out there, more so all the time, who make it their work to produce properly raised meats using sustainable practices. I guess they still have the methane farts...
http://www.bestbeefever.com/
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c wilmot
climber
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Feb 28, 2015 - 01:40pm PT
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How is fields for crops that are devoid of any native plant life or wild animals better for nature than a free range cattle farm?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Apr 29, 2015 - 06:59am PT
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Well this was disappointing ..I thought whitemeat had finally broken into the bigtime and had his own slander thread.
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Flip Flop
climber
salad bowl, california
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Apr 29, 2015 - 08:12am PT
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You can eat me.
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Flip Flop
climber
salad bowl, california
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Apr 29, 2015 - 08:23am PT
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That's a sincere compliment in the land of the Vertical Cannibals. Enjoy guilt-free as I am free range, cage-free and grass fed.
(I only eat vegetarians)
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Apr 29, 2015 - 09:05am PT
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NWO2 lives his life in fear.
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Dover
Trad climber
New England
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Apr 29, 2015 - 09:13am PT
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Kaiser-Permanente is one of the larger health care organizations in the US. For the last two years, Kaiser has been recommending that their physicians encourage patients to adopt a plant-based diet and forego meat and dairy (sorry, but free-range and grass fed has no bearing on this). Obesity, diabetes and cardiovascular disease are largely due to lifestyle and changing diet can have a dramatic effect on these disorders:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662288/
The objective of this article is to present to physicians an update on plant-based diets. Concerns about the rising cost of health care are being voiced nationwide, even as unhealthy lifestyles are contributing to the spread of obesity, diabetes, and cardiovascular disease. For these reasons, physicians looking for cost-effective interventions to improve health outcomes are becoming more involved in helping their patients adopt healthier lifestyles. Healthy eating may be best achieved with a plant-based diet, which we define as a regimen that encourages whole, plant-based foods and discourages meats, dairy products, and eggs as well as all refined and processed foods. We present a case study as an example of the potential health benefits of such a diet. Research shows that plant-based diets are cost-effective, low-risk interventions that may lower body mass index, blood pressure, HbA1C, and cholesterol levels. They may also reduce the number of medications needed to treat chronic diseases and lower ischemic heart disease mortality rates. Physicians should consider recommending a plant-based diet to all their patients, especially those with high blood pressure, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, or obesity.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 29, 2015 - 11:46am PT
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Everything goes better with Bacon!
And I mean everything!
With one caveat: OW.
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skitch
Gym climber
Bend Or
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Apr 29, 2015 - 12:59pm PT
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Last time I looked in my mouth I had some sharp teeth. Hmmm.
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Poloman
Trad climber
Anna, Il
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Apr 29, 2015 - 04:38pm PT
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Eating meat isn't the problem.
Overpopulation is the real problem.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Apr 29, 2015 - 05:18pm PT
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Over population isn't the problem. Its too many rich f*#ks (westerners generally and increasingly Chinese) and too many old f*#ks (living waayyy too long) that is the problem. Eliminate those two groups and everything is cool. :)
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Apr 29, 2015 - 05:20pm PT
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Hell is other people.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 29, 2015 - 05:48pm PT
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^^ O'Really? ^^
Does this include me? ;)
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 29, 2015 - 05:52pm PT
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Give it up Pete. Anita is not going to show you her goodies.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Apr 29, 2015 - 11:43pm PT
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care to lead by example I used to make a big fat paycheck... and I would frequently argue with friends that if we really wanted to save the world we all needed to take a 90 percent cut in our standard of living. Well be careful what you wish for. Shortly there after I got booted and have been basically out of work for the last ten years and living on less than a grand a month. :) good news is there seems to be freedom at both ends of the econonic scale. lol
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Apr 30, 2015 - 07:40am PT
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You got the roles reversed, dirtbag.
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karen roseme
Mountain climber
Bishop
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Today, with 7.1 billion humans, we are using more than half of Earth’s productivity and the other 30-million species survive on the left-over habitats. If human population reaches 11 billion, we will likely require about 80 percent, although such a scenario may not be biophysically possible.
http://ecowatch.com/2015/08/19/earth-facing-extinction-crisis/3/
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GuapoVino
climber
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I'm not sure I'm buying the fact that 80% of farm land is devoted to raising livestock. I grew up in three different very agricultural states. Nearly all of my relatives are farmers, my dad was a part time farmer when I was a kid and then was in agricultural finance until I was about 18. I'm just not seeing that 80% of the farm land is devoted to raising livestock. The only way that could be even possible is if you included all the multi-thousand acre mega ranches out west that are used to graze cattle but a lot of these areas really are not suited to grow any kind of crop profitably. Their only productive use is to allow cattle to graze them. Sometimes cattle will be allowed to graze wheat over the winter on farm land and then rotated back to not-really-farmable pasture land. In that case the land being grazed periodically may be counted twice, part of the year for grazing and the other growing season being utilized to grow a crop.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Yea! Where IS whitemeat. Didn't he talk about going to Mt. Hooker? I would love to see a TR from there...
Oh yea, on topic wise check out the video Forkes over Knives.
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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there'll be a lot fewer hooves on the ground in my neighborhood by afternoon
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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GuapoVino,
I think it's possible that 80% of farmland is used for raising meat, if you define "famrland" to include grazing land. The OP (and various comments generally) ignore alternative uses and tastes (pun intended)
The assumption that the allocation of land reflects something other than "efficient use" (the OP's contention) goes hand-in-hand with the exclusion of other options and accounting for others' preferences. What is "efficiency?" In particular, how can anyone allege that a particular distribution is or is not "efficient" without accounting for the preferences of the distributees?
I'm afraid this topic, as in much of the reactionary left's world, represents a gigantic ego trip of people who think they know what other people really want, and resent the fact that the industrial revolution and markets allow those ignorant masses to self-select what their deluded minds think they want, rather than what the enlightened think they should want.
Then there's the idea that old people are part of the problem. How does one truly believe that without setting an arbitrary "use by" date for people, and showing their true belief by expiring on said date?
John
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Has anyone applied the “evolution” model yet? How would the theory of evolution answer the question?
The human mouth usually comes with 20 molars, 4 canine, and 8 incisors. The molars (62.5%) seem to be developed to grind (e.g., grains), the canine (12.5%) for ripping or tearing (meat), and the incisors (25%) for chopping (veggies). The canine teeth appear to be devolving. The intestines seem developed for long digestion (grains and veggies); meat in a body turns toxic fairly quickly.
Eat vegetables, and often.
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c wilmot
climber
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Cattle often eat grass that is naturally growing in the ground. all of the anti meat stats have been based on the assumption the animal is grain fed its entire life.
Also farm fields for veggies are completely devoid of any life other than the crop that is being grown. No native grasses, no wildlife, nothing.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Remind me a lot of My dad's buddy Carlsle's place over by Show Low.
Considerably smaller though. Maybe only 100,000 acres.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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MEN, BURT BRONSON HERE. STAY AWAY FROM PROCESSED SOY OR this is what will happen.
;>(
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tripmind
Boulder climber
San Diego
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Sep 20, 2015 - 04:40am PT
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Its apples and oranges. Even a modern cornfield still requires a high amount of diesel and other sources of dirty fuel to produce and process large amounts of vegetables.
"Inefficiency" is about as far as one can go to grasp for straw in this argument. Overpopulation and famine is a government problem, not a farming problem.
If we did actually save some insignificant fraction of energy by outlawing all cattle ranching, it would not feed the hungry, or famined people in africa. It would simply spark the rapid growth of these same problems and put the world at even greater peril.
I love meat for the record. I think factory farming of any sort, including beef, poultry, or salmon is trash and produces low quality food. I am very willing to pay a premium for good meat, or otherwise walk out into some backcountry and harvest it myself, and gut it, and skin it. I've had venison that an inlaw shot and killed legally. It was outstanding.
I would jump at the chance for regulation - to allow the tuna to grow bigger, or even to outlaw usage of steroids and antibiotics in factory farms, because its often quite difficult to tell what you're buying at a supermarket. Even buying salmon from a fish farm can reveal some pretty disgusting qualities of that meat, its astounding that USFDA allows some of this sh#t to be trucked across the Canadian border.
But the economy is might, and might makes right apparently. F*#k the consumer says the US government.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 20, 2015 - 05:00am PT
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People in the US would eat less meat if the veggies were better. I'm in Georgia in the Caucasus Mts. and the tomatoes, beets and other veggies are to die for. Fruit is great too.
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Degaine
climber
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Sep 20, 2015 - 09:15am PT
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Jeleazarian wrote:
I'm afraid this topic, as in much of the reactionary left's world, represents a gigantic ego trip of people who think they know what other people really want, and resent the fact that the industrial revolution and markets allow those ignorant masses to self-select what their deluded minds think they want, rather than what the enlightened think they should want.
Bold by me.
Why do you always position issues as right vs. left?
99% of animal products Americans consume comes from factory farms, and the companies that own factory farms in the USA and other countries have done a great job in decreasing if not eliminating regulations. No one would ever think of human waste not being treated or eliminating all regulations regarding the treatment of human waste, yet that's the case with factory farms: poultry or pig, take your pick. It's a major environmental and health problem.
But let's just say that you don't give a sh#t (pun intended), what about the sanctity of life? If we split the world as you appear to view it, right vs left, then you should be up in arms at the treatment of animals (namely poultry, pigs, and cattle, the staple meats in this country, but you could add fish as well) on factory farms and slaughter houses.
But let's just say again that you couldn't give a rat's ass (or rather pig's ass, yes, pun intended) about how awful animals are treated (whether chicken, turkey, pig, or steer, many of these animals are feathered/skinned/bled out while conscious, an industry average of something on the order of 5% of animals, and when we slaughter something in the order of 9 billion chickens* a year that's a lot of suffering animals) but are concerned about have clean, safe food. Out of luck there as well. Ever wonder why your told to make sure that your chicken is fully cooked? It's there's a hell of a lot of fecal matter on it when you buy it.
But one last time, let's just perhaps you're not too worried about E.Coli or the occasional bout of diarrhea. Well, the reason why antibiotics are less and less effective is not because of overuse in humans but because of overuse in animal agriculture. We humans only use antibiotics when we're actually sick - and this used to be the case, too, when raising animals 40 to 50 years ago - but now it is an integral part of poultry and pig feed. That is one dangerous proposition (in other words, swine and bird flu).
Kind of silly, in my opinion, to simply dismiss this as a right vs left issue, don't you think? With regard to the market, choice in economic theory is based on the notion that the consumer is fully informed, and in the case of Big Ag/Factory farms, the industry does its best to ensure that as little information as possible is out there about their practices and product.
*Edited to fix my originally very low original number.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Sep 20, 2015 - 10:50am PT
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People in the US would eat less meat if the veggies were better. I'm in Georgia in the Caucasus Mts. and the tomatoes, beets and other veggies are to die for. Fruit is great too.
This Donini guy is always here there and everywhere. Georgia? That place near Russia? I think "Jim Donini" is an alias and cover for 007!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 21, 2015 - 05:50am PT
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Cosmic....Mark. KGB eh....well I'd did do Kazbek which required crossing over into Russia for a kilometer or two on the descent. Just flew into Istanbul to meet Angela for a couple of weeks of sightseeing and some exellent limestone.
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ECF
Big Wall climber
Colona, CO
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Sep 21, 2015 - 06:11am PT
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Your quoted statistic are totally made up.
I went to college for natural resources management and took courses in range management.
The actual numbers are much higher.
You weakened you own arguement by not doing proper research.
Hmm, the no meat crowd contains a lot of "no guns" type people, and the inverse is also true.
Push comes to shove, how do you see that panning out?
You love generalities, here's one for ya...
Vegans are weak arrogant d#@&%ebahgs.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 21, 2015 - 06:22am PT
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I love meat and fish even more and I'm for sane gun control laws for America so we can ask for entry into the civilized world.
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Degaine
climber
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Sep 21, 2015 - 08:07am PT
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ECF wrote:
Your quoted statistic are totally made up.
I went to college for natural resources management and took courses in range management.
The actual numbers are much higher.
You weakened you own arguement by not doing proper research.
Thanks for pointing out the error in the number of chickens slaughtered that I posted. Not trying to make up figures, just under-remembered from the stats that I had read.
I've done enough research not sure how my argument is weakened.
ECF wrote:
Hmm, the no meat crowd contains a lot of "no guns" type people, and the inverse is also true.
Push comes to shove, how do you see that panning out?
I'm not sure how you confuse the desire for humane treatment of farm animals, the desire for the proper management of resources, and the desire for Big Ag to actual pay the real cost of meat production (instead of passing along as much of the costs as possible on to someone else) with the “no meat”.
But maybe your post wasn’t directed at me?
Cheers.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 21, 2015 - 10:55am PT
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Meat-free meat might be the solution.
Bill Gates is putting a lot of money in this field.
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Urizen
Ice climber
Berkeley, CA
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Sep 21, 2015 - 10:56am PT
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Donini,
There's some good wine to be found in Georgia, too, now that they've figured out how to make it dry instead of sweet.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Sep 21, 2015 - 12:23pm PT
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Meat-free meat might be the solution.
Bill Gates is putting a lot of money in this field.
LET THEM EAT SILICON!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 21, 2015 - 12:34pm PT
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Jeleazarian wrote:
I'm afraid this topic, as in much of the reactionary left's world, represents a gigantic ego trip of people who think they know what other people really want, and resent the fact that the industrial revolution and markets allow those ignorant masses to self-select what their deluded minds think they want, rather than what the enlightened think they should want.
Degaine responded (in part):
. . . . Kind of silly, in my opinion, to simply dismiss this as a right vs left issue, don't you think? With regard to the market, choice in economic theory is based on the notion that the consumer is fully informed, and in the case of Big Ag/Factory farms, the industry does its best to ensure that as little information as possible is out there about their practices and product.
Degaine, your words prove my contention.
John
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Sep 21, 2015 - 01:32pm PT
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Actually John, with all due respect, it doesn't prove your contention. These are just two divergent positions given what you have presented. To prove your contention you need to provide facts that support your position. Of course, I have not read most of this thread and I may have missed something.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 21, 2015 - 01:51pm PT
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I stand corrected. To me, the comment demonstrated a viewpoint that allocating goods via the market was bad because the consumers were too stupid to know what they were getting, in contrast to the knowledgeable elite, who would like to return to pre-industrial-revolution economics, where one's all-knowing liege allocated everything for the greater good.
John
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Sep 21, 2015 - 02:52pm PT
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To me, the comment demonstrated a viewpoint that allocating goods via the market was bad because the consumers were too stupid to know what they were getting, in contrast to the knowledgeable elite, who would like to return to pre-industrial-revolution economics, where one's all-knowing liege allocated everything for the greater good.
Yikes, John!!!!! That would be a scary thought indeed, on many differet levels. Uh, yea...I did not get that out of Degaine's statement. Granted, his earlier argument was about meat (well, it is the topic of discussion), but the more general statement is about supplying information to the potential consumers. Not that they are too stupid to know, but that they are purposefuly not informed by producers. Even "Product can contain Isopropylamine salt of glyphosate" probably does not sound too appealing. Is the guy selling you that Honda Accord going to harp on the fact that they have had problems with the air bags?
As an example, non gmo labelling is generally important to me, mainly because they have not really established long term effects of "roundup" ingestion, and it persists in harvested roundup ready grains (wheat, barley, rice) and I don't feel like being a gunnea pig for Monsanto (the people who said PCB's were safe). I guess I am part of the "knowledgeable elite", but my experience in Haz Mat site study, RI/FS, and risk assessment means I have some understanding as to how fuzzy some of these numbers (like LD50's, ect) can be. I just don't want to eat the stuff. Luckly there are non-gmo labels to look for, but most people don't know about this and thus cannot make an informed decision for themselves. Maybe having to label everything as GMO is not the way to go about it, but there should be a clear-cut unambiguous alternative for those who want it. Information is what we are talking about. Access to information about the stuff that is going into our bodies. The general delivery system works fine.
A general statement which I will not back up now is that, our food system in the United States is one of the largest (if not the largest) contributors to the overloading of our health care system. Costs are going crazy. If that isn't of general concern to everyone, I don't know what is.
Chris
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 21, 2015 - 03:13pm PT
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The meat eaters create so much negative karmic reactions for their endless violence against nature.
Their stooopid industrialized slaughterhouses are the karmic cause of all their stooopid wars unbeknownst to them.
Then they spout endless stooopid hypocrisy about their reasons to kill and eat animals by industrialized slaughter,
Stooopid ignorant meat eaters .....
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Sep 21, 2015 - 03:23pm PT
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If only the Aliens had not genetically modified our ancestors which inadvertently created cognitive awareness, then we would still just be happy chattering monkey-things munching on rodent ribs with an occasional banana for roughage.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 21, 2015 - 05:58pm PT
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Somebody: . . . allocating goods via the market was bad because the consumers were too stupid to know what they were getting, in contrast to the knowledgeable elite, who would like to return to pre-industrial-revolution economics, where one's all-knowing liege allocated everything for the greater good.
Wow, I don’t think I like either notion.
Isn’t economics coming (slowly) to the conclusion that there needs to be some kind of oversight to ensure the common good? I mean the U.S. seems to be about ready to start prosecuting corporate managers rather than just levying strong fines.
“Buyer beware” seems have shifted to “seller take care” because people in general are spending more time doing a little bit of research. (Kudos to the Internet, in this instance.)
Sorry for being an interloper here.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Sep 21, 2015 - 06:18pm PT
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No facts, but it is the truth.
The meat eaters create so much negative karmic reactions for their endless violence against nature.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Sep 21, 2015 - 06:23pm PT
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there needs to be some kind of oversight to ensure the common good?
A truly free market does that by itself.
the "oversight" always gets twisted to the benefit of the connected and to the detriment of the consumer.
The problem we now have is that we are really now a crony corporatist economy at every level from local licensing and regulation to ensure market share is reserved to the politically connected to federal corporate welfare on the national scale.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 22, 2015 - 12:08am PT
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No market can function without a certain amount of government "oversight." The issue is what sort and how much. When "factory farming" made meat available to the masses, the local meat purveyors, who could not compete, enacted regulation to make the less expensive meat unavailable (see, e.g. the Slaughterhouse Cases, 83 U.S. 36, 73-74 (1873). Louisiana enacted legislation to keep a monopoly on slaughtering, not to protect the public, but to protect the monopolist.)
In addition, the government has the only realistic ability to deal with property rights, contract rights, etc. If the regulation enhances competition, it would, by definition, increase market efficiency. Unfortunately, not all regulation does so, and many advocates of increased regulation fall for a "free lunch," namely that the regulators have more information than the market participants.
In particular, I find a great deal of recent additional regulation in this area has the effect of protecting competitors, rather than competition, or else serves an interest few consumers consider a "need." Take the example of country of origin labeling in meat. If consumers cared, meat labeled with country of origin would sell for more money than meat without such information. The higher price would cause more sellers to label their meat. The government has a role here, namely insuring that if a seller chooses to label the country of origin, the label accurately reflects that information. But I see very few consumers wanting the increased information that such regulations would require for everyone.
John
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Sep 22, 2015 - 06:17am PT
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Eat more venison.
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Sep 22, 2015 - 12:41pm PT
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agreed, speedgoats are my fav with elk a close second and I'll skip the venison from now on unless it is jerked. I ate to much growing up and now even looking at them makes me crave a salad.
Calling speedgoats organic is a stretch. Those square eyed suckers get all plumped up in those hella fertilized fields all throughout central/eastern MT.
It is hunting season(bow) up here and my buddy's Pa is a game processor in the B-Roots and I get the scraps. Elk Barbacoa is on the menu this weekend.
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WyoRockMan
climber
South Fork of the Shoshone
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Sep 22, 2015 - 12:47pm PT
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Organic antelope some serious good eating.
The shrimp of the prairie.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Sep 22, 2015 - 12:55pm PT
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TGT said
The problem we now have is that we are really now a crony corporatist economy at every level from local licensing and regulation to ensure market share is reserved to the politically connected to federal corporate welfare on the national scale.
I completely agree with this. In fact Obama and Monsanto have been in bed together for so long, they must have kids by now. But I can't agree that a truly free market regulates itself. I'm sorry, but this just does not happen. Corporations are mostly interested in their bottom line. And that " "oversight" always gets twisted to the benefit of the connected and to the detriment of the consumer." thing happens then too. There needs to be some oversight. We are talking about a necessity of life involving millions of people here, not tulips. In China, we have seen problems involving food solved by either government repression or mob rule. Which method do you favor? What is the alternative when a million plus people get super pizzed off because of something "bad" happening with their food source? There needs to be some legitimate body (the government?) that can step in in a timely fashon to make sure things are being appropriately delt with. Some regulatory oversight is necessary with the real question being; how much?
Chris
John, I see where you are going with that argument...What was the point of the country of origin label? I just have no clue now.
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meg - tp
climber
El Paso, TX
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Sep 22, 2015 - 04:11pm PT
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Solution is simple, you dont have to worry about reducing your red meat intake if you add edible insects to your diet once a week. Reduction in consumption is the most effective answer, but it doesn't sell well. Suff like meatless mondays and edible insect tuesdays, add variety - they don't take away.
Super tasty spicy critter fritters made with cricket flour. http://bugvivant.com/recipe/cricket-powder-recipe-spicy-critter-fritters/
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Sep 22, 2015 - 04:23pm PT
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Any dumbshit can pull a trigger. Takes a real man not to.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Sep 22, 2015 - 05:28pm PT
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Corporations are mostly interested in their bottom line. And that " "oversight" always gets twisted to the benefit of the connected and to the detriment of the consumer."
Keep in mind that unions are just labor corporations,
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 22, 2015 - 09:27pm PT
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JEleazarian: The issue is what sort and how much [oversight].
When organizations of any sort make policy, then tend to believe that policy will solve a problem or resolve an issue once and for all. Initially it may, until people learn to game the rules and turn them to their favor.
Tax laws, for example, are renown for the loop holes they expose. Tax is a bona fide industry employing millions of people. Tax has never been a logical system of regulations. It’s always been a patchwork of rules. The tax code makes no logical sense.
Thinking that market mechanisms, or oversight by agencies, are the solutions in themselves may be at the core of the problems that we see. I’d suggest that every situation is unique, and needs to be approached uniquely. Of course, that has large implications for cost containment and efficiencies.
Policies / systems / structures are heuristics. If you want something done right, then you’re going to have to manage / oversee it closely. Systems don’t really run themselves. They are always short-term fixes.
There are no permanent solutions. To anything. Ever.
For those who don’t have the resources or commitment or care to manage things closely, expect folks to take advantage of whatever is set-up. We are creative beings, and we love puzzles.
On a side note, it is considered good business strategy to (i) squeeze suppliers and (ii) buyers whenever one can; (iii) for incumbents to erect barriers to entry into an industry; (iv) to limit the effectiveness of substitutes; and (v) to diminish rivalry by any means legal. That’s what we teach in business school, unless we teach business ethics. Then we teach something else.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 23, 2015 - 11:31am PT
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On a side note, it is considered good business strategy to (i) squeeze suppliers and (ii) buyers whenever one can; (iii) for incumbents to erect barriers to entry into an industry; (iv) to limit the effectiveness of substitutes; and (v) to diminish rivalry by any means legal. That’s what we teach in business school, unless we teach business ethics. Then we teach something else. [Emphasis supplied]
In my opinion, too much well-intentioned regulation ends up being used for the purose (iv) I highlighted above. I would add that most of what you post is also considered good political strategy, particularly your item (iii) (See, e.g., McCain-Feingold).
I'm curious about what would be different in a business ethics class. I know that an attorney's ethical duty is to represent the client zealously within the bounds of the law. (See, e.g., ABA Model Rules of Professional Conduct, Canon 7). Apparently, while ethical attorneys need to be as close to the law's bounds as possbile if doing so furthers clients' interests, ethical businesses have additional limitations.
John
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Yeti
Trad climber
Ketchum, Idaho
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Sep 24, 2015 - 07:20am PT
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Leo Tolstoy said it best: "A man can live and be healthy without killing animals for food; therefore, if he eats meat, he participates in taking animal life merely for the sake of his appetite."
I hunted and fished and ate meat for my first three decades before deciding there was more to living on earth than my own appetites and retired from the carnivore's life. I'll be 77 in a few weeks and am relatively healthy and active for such an ancient.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 24, 2015 - 09:11am PT
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JEleazarian: I'm curious about what would be different in a business ethics class.
Well, that would depend upon who teaches it. Most of those classes are taught by people who think business ethics is philosophy, so that’s what they teach—philosophy.
As a management guy, I teach organization under the belief that the ethics of work in organizations is an everyday affair in some of the smallest detail (as well as obvious legal transgressions such as what we see from VW today). I see work ethics as a key part of organizational culture.
What does the company stand for? What does it believe that is right? What are its values that it holds dear? What kind of practices does it follow? How does management lead? What kind of people does it hire? Does it think that all resources are equal? Do people matter as special resources? If they do, are they developed and treated that way? Where does profit work into the equation? Are there other objectives? Is an organization an enterprise devoted to making profits, or could organizations be seen more as communities?
There are people today who are arguing that the perceived work ethics of an organization matters to personnel who work in those companies, and they matter to buyers. As a third leg of a stool, it also matters to be a steward of the earth.
I don’t have the time right now to find you the full citations, but there have been a number of reports published in the likes of the WSJ that show that buyers will pay a premium for goods from “ethical companies” or for “sustainable products” or for ethical purposes they believe in. People have higher regards for companies that hold an understanding that there are ways to serve themselves *and* their locales or industries in ways that would seem to be costly.
For example, Cisco Systems has spent millions building out a Network Academy that teaches networking in high schools and junior colleges all over the world. They do it for free: it serves them to do so and it serves their communities. People who work in the company feel great about it, too. (Look at Michael Porter’s article in the HBR entitled, “Shared Value.” It’s a new model for creating value for a broader view of “marketplaces.”)
It is also no small wonder that social entrepreneurship and impact capital are hot areas of interest and investment for the likes of JP Morgan, very large family businesses across the world, business schools, and younger students (millennials). Ethics seem to matter in decision making; people are willing to forego higher levels of profits or lower prices to satisfy their own sense of what it means to be ethical. They will vote with their feet.
If you’re interested, look at: http://www.goodcompanyindex.com/ These people (consultants) provide methodology and data regularly that show that being perceived as a “good company” (ethics that serve buyers, employees, and being a steward of the earth) has financial impact on the bottom line as well as for stock price.
I admit that not everyone is “hip” to these ideas. But it’s a “growth market,” as it were.
Be well.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 24, 2015 - 10:40am PT
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Thanks, Mike, for the excellent answer. I was hoping that was what you're tlaking about. In my professions, I've always had the ethic that it's important to do things correctly, even in the details. I wanted to be known as someone who won't cut corners, or skimp on inputs. I don't always succeed, but knowing the goal toward which I strive helps make better decisions.
My own work ethic says I need to spend time getting two days' worth of work done today, so I can head up to the Valley for a couple of days of Face Lifting, so I'll sign off. Again, though, I greatly appreciate your obvious thought in your response.
John
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Sep 24, 2015 - 02:39pm PT
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What the Inuit can tell us about omega-3 fats and ‘paleo’ diets
The short answer, it all depends.
Slightly longer.
“The original focus on fish oil and omega-3s came from studies of Inuit. On their traditional diet, rich in fat from marine mammals, Inuit seemed quite healthy with a low incidence of cardiovascular disease, so fish oil must be protective,” said project leader Rasmus Nielsen, a UC Berkeley professor of integrative biology. “We’ve now found that they have unique genetic adaptations to this diet, so you cannot extrapolate from them to other populations. A diet that is healthy for the Inuit may not necessarily be good for the rest of us.”
http://news.berkeley.edu/2015/09/17/what-the-inuit-can-tell-us-about-omega-3-fats-and-paleo-diets/
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Sep 24, 2015 - 04:27pm PT
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Yet other studies would completely refute the premise presented in that paper. A number of studies have come to the conclusion that the Greenland Inuit have incidence of cardiovascular disease equal to Europeans and Americans. See for example, http://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/polopoly_fs/1.1814937!/httpFile/file.pdf
We also reviewed studies that have assessed the prevalence of CAD (coronary artery disease) or other CVD in the Eskimo/Inuit populations in areas such as the Northwest Territories and Nunavik, in Canada or in Alaska, USA. The results of these investigations confirm that the prevalence of CAD in Inuits is as high or higher compared to non-Eskimo populations.22-23;31-32;34-35In 2003, a thorough analysis of the incidence and available mortality statistics among Inuit populations in Greenland, Canada and Alaska by Bjerregaard et al, also concluded that the totality of evidence from various Northern areas makes a strong argument for high presence of CVD in Eskimos (Appendix A in Supplementary Materials).21
Interesting reading....that the conclusions would be so different.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Sep 24, 2015 - 04:47pm PT
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Sorry to disagree with you WTF. I hunted since I was 8 years old, up until I was about 35. It took me that long to realize that hunting is not a sport, its simply killing for the sake of your wants, not your needs. It you want to be a tracker or a photographer or enjoy the outdoors, thats wonderful. But pulling a trigger on a animal takes no brains or real skill or courage, in fact I believe its technically the act of a coward, instead of "sporting". and whether you realize it or not, the meat is poison to your body.
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c wilmot
climber
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Sep 24, 2015 - 05:12pm PT
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vegetarianism is a luxury of agricultural society's
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Sep 24, 2015 - 05:43pm PT
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Actually the opposite is true Wilmot.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Sep 24, 2015 - 05:58pm PT
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Uh,
Pre-agricultural civilizations?
they are called
Hunter, gatherer,
societies for a reason.
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MikeMc
Social climber
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Sep 27, 2015 - 01:15pm PT
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Do you guys all buy your soapboxes at the same place? Like the big and tall soap box store?
I'm stuck here with this little ol' high horse.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 27, 2015 - 06:05pm PT
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That's an ugly picture, Karen.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Sep 28, 2015 - 09:16am PT
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vegetarianism is a luxury of agricultural society's
Actually the opposite is true
I don't get it?
not(vegetarianism is a luxury of agricultural society's) ?
what are the other luxuries of agricultural society's ?
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Sep 28, 2015 - 09:19am PT
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Truly, production of animal protein is harmful to the environment, but there's a bigger question that people don't like to think about.
Are we better than other mammals simply because we build sh#t and do stuff other mammals don't?
You guys focusing on policy might want to take a step back and see the bigger picture. We ate animal protein way back because that worked. In modern times, we are able to sustain ourselves in a healthy manner without slaughtering mammals, so why do we keep doing so?
The answer is twofold. One, we just keep doing what we are used to despite not needing to. Basically, we like the texture of animal flesh. That can change if we want it to. Two, the systemic nature of mass animal protein production is so ingrained in our society that we don't question it.
Pigs are smarter than dogs, and we don't eat dogs. We love some animals, and are just fine with inhumane treatment of others to be slaughtered.
So, here's my point in a nutshell; if you love animals, don't eat them. You can be equally healthy without flesh. And, if you love the environment and continue to eat animal protein, most notably cow, you are a hypocrite. Your continued consumption of cow is absolutely terrible for the environment.
Put down your knives and think for a while about what you're doing. We can be the dominant species without murdering the lesser species simply for the texture of their flesh.
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c wilmot
climber
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Sep 28, 2015 - 09:36am PT
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what are the other luxuries of agricultural society's ?
A division of labor.
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c wilmot
climber
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Sep 28, 2015 - 09:56am PT
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most all synthetic material is made out of oil. The oil industry kills a TON of animals. Unless you climb with a hemp rope being vegan is in name only
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Well said, Brandon
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nice pitch for mammals but what about other animals. The oceans are being depleted of fish. What about the lowly chicken.....talk about a short, unnatural life.
Other animals besides mammals show high intelligence. Ravens are way smarter than dogs and they don't bark, growl, bite or sh#t where you're bound to put your foot.
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Degaine
climber
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Jeleazarian wrote:
Degaine, your words prove my contention.
John
Jeleazarian wrote:
I stand corrected. To me, the comment demonstrated a viewpoint that allocating goods via the market was bad because the consumers were too stupid to know what they were getting, in contrast to the knowledgeable elite, who would like to return to pre-industrial-revolution economics, where one's all-knowing liege allocated everything for the greater good.
John
First, John, thanks for taking the time to respond. Honestly. While you and I rarely agree or view major issues in the same manner, I appreciate that you acknowledge my posts and take the time to reply. If you can believe it, work and life got in the way of me being able to post on Supertopo. I know, a cardinal sin, right?
Second, and to somewhat address your post, I find it fascinating that you and I speak the same language, have read the same books (e.g., Adam Smith's Wealth of Nation), and yet interpret the words on the page in a completely different manner.
Third, I think that a market economy is great. I fail to read where I wrote otherwise. However, regulations and government oversight are important for both safety and from preventing a monopoly/oligopoly. At this point in time, the meat industry (poultry, pigs, beef) is an oligopoly, pure and simple. The "real Americans" that charlatans like Mrs. Palin like to talk about no longer actually exist in the heartland with regard to raising animals that we eat for meat. As I previously wrote, somewhere between 95-99% of the meat Americans eat comes from factory farms, produced by a very small handful of companies (Purdue, Tyson, etc).
Adam Smith would not condone the oligopoly that is the US meat industry.
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Degaine
climber
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TGT wrote:
Uh,
Pre-agricultural civilizations?
they are called
Hunter, gatherer,
societies for a reason.
There's a huge difference between the persistence hunting carried out by early homosapiens living in small groups on the African savanna and the industrialized slaughter (and mistreatment) of billions of animals so that we can eat cheap meat.
It's not the consumption of meat per se, but how we current go about obtaining said meat.
Add to that the fact that in the US 40-50% of the food produced (meat and plants) is thrown away, and the entire situation becomes one costly, repulsive mess.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Meet Clarence, named because she was the oddball of the flock. Once the absolute bottom of the pecking order, she is now approaching 6 years old and still produces eggs for us; somewhere between 2 to 4 a week if she is not molting.
She's always been just to skinny to eat, and now she is named so I think we are stuck with her. Although bacon wraping her could help.....Naaaaaaa, not going to do that unless she doesn't like being a moma next year when we get some more chicks.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Bacon is gross.
When I tell people I stopped eating meat for a few years they always ask "even chicken?!?" In disbelief. Idiots.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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This is a great thread!
While there is a diversity of opinions, the bigger issue is getting people thinking about all this. When you do, you realize that there are different paths available.
From a medical perspective, meat in the quantities Americans eat, is clearly not healthy. It promotes obesity, clogging of the arteries, heart attacks and strokes. That tendency has built entire industries (medical and pharmaceutical) to deal with the outcomes.
Do you really think harvesting of veggies has no environmental impact? Agreed that if we all lived on farms and grew our own food the world would be better. That is just not practical given our urban lifestyle.
Possibly not. However, here in LA, urban central, there are many who do. There are community gardens where people grow much of their food. We also have individuals that are doing remarkable things.
take a look at this TED talk by a black guy in South Central LA, who fought the City Bureaucracy, and won. And is changing his community. Look at how he, who is scared of speaking, gets up in front of a bunch of rich people, and tells them: "when you leave here, just plant some sh*t!!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=392&v=lEsS_YvudEE
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Here is a story of a guy who put in an aggressive backyard farm, and produces 6,000 lbs of food on 1/10th of an acre of land:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
"growing food yourself is a dangerous act, because you are in danger of becoming free"
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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I don't advocate that growing at home is the only path, or even the preferred path.....simply that it is a path that many don't realize exists.
I don't have a huge garden at home--it was only tomatoes and peppers in containers, this year. I suppose I could graze a few cows? I have had ducks. (didn't eat them, the coyotes took care of that....)
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Vegetarian Dog and Cat Food Warnings
Lew Olson, PhD, author of Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs, makes this analogy: “Trying to feed a cat a vegan diet would be like me feeding my horses meat. You’re taking a whole species of animal and trying to force it to eat something that it isn’t designed to handle.”
“For cats, it’s really inappropriate. It goes against their physiology and isn’t something I would recommend at all," says Cailin Heinze, VMD, a board-certified veterinary nutritionist and assistant professor of nutrition at Tufts Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine.
"For dogs, certainly vegetarian and vegan diets can be done, but they need to be done very, very carefully. There is a lot of room for error, and these diets probably are not as appropriate as diets that contain at least some animal protein," Heinze says.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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My son and his girlfriend very successfully have been growing a lot of their own produce...
I hope to join the bandwagon next season...
With the water restrictions, didn't grow much this year. Just the Asparagus and a few tomatoes, but
There's just a but nothing better than a pot full of fresh home grown green beans steamed with,
BACON!
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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In some of the earlier posts, there was discussion of the problem of where the fertilizer would come from for the plants that would be grown in place of the meat.
I didn't see this answered, so let me try.
It is actually NOT a problem, because the plants are already being grown! They are, however, being fed to cows instead of to humans. Using them in that way to grow beef to feed to people is very inefficient and expensive.
I don't assume that we'd use the SAME plants....I'm not much into alfalfa, personally. But a change in crop would likely not change the nature of need for fertilizer in a significant way.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 20, 2016 - 10:52am PT
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re: "Naturally cultured meat"
Alright meat-loving vegans, this is interesting / insightful...
Sam Harris speaks with Uma Valeti, cardiologist and CEO of Memphis Meats, about the future of meat products.
Meat Without Misery (Meat Without Murder)
http://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/meat-without-murder
Starts at 19:00.
"In 50 years, I personally believe, that the thought of slaughtering animals for meat will be laughable."
NO TO ANIMAL FACTORIES!!
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c wilmot
climber
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Feb 20, 2016 - 11:36am PT
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ah yes the birkenstock crowd with synthetic clothing would like to lecture meat eaters about the impact of the meat industry.....
while ignoring the fact the vegetable farming is FAR more environmentally destructive
You wont find a living creature or a blade of native grass in that field of veggies...
but do ride that high horse
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 20, 2016 - 02:47pm PT
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while ignoring the fact the vegetable farming is FAR more environmentally destructive
The worst vegetable-farming is worse than the best cattle-raising. But those are the tiny-percentage edge-cases that are not the rule.
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2010/07/vegetarianism-worse-for-the-environment
One small passage from that lengthy compilation of articles:
The United Nations recently reported that animal farming is the number one cause of global warming, and one of the top two or three causes of every significant environmental problem on the planet, locally and globally.
If global-warming is such the pressing problem, then let's get serious about addressing its major causes.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Feb 20, 2016 - 02:58pm PT
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Well said, madbolter!
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Jun 16, 2016 - 05:12pm PT
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Cool idea to make cell cultures for meat.
There are places where the land would be difficult to farm or water not as easily available, but having animals graze the steep rocky slopes and then using their milk/skin/meat/etc. seems like a reasonable thing. But this is a very local subsistence kind of thing- not as amenable to corporate profit-optimizing meat management.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jun 16, 2016 - 05:28pm PT
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cwilmot you are misinformed or willfully ignorant.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 16, 2016 - 05:39pm PT
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The brave new world that awaits humanity... Enjoy your synthetic garlic, human -dmt
The world we have now, you sad sac...
Educate yourself in the matter or grow some morals.
Morals re factory animals. (your word du jour: exploited)
Instead of posting here, go watch a movie...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0358456/
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jun 16, 2016 - 05:58pm PT
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All organic grass fed beef!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 16, 2016 - 06:17pm PT
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Environmentally, with respect to health, or karmacly, it doesn't get much worse than meat.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 16, 2016 - 06:45pm PT
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The most important leap forward for early humans occurred when they learned to cook meat,
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Jun 16, 2016 - 08:07pm PT
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The most important leap forward for early humans occurred when they learned to cook meat,
True.
Quiz: Name one traditional vegan culture in the world.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jun 16, 2016 - 08:11pm PT
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Because the puppy isn't filled with bacon.
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Jun 21, 2016 - 11:08am PT
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We ate practically nothing but moose, lake trout, salmon and garden veggies for the first ten years in Atlin, and still do a lot of that. Couldn't have a much healthier diet. The moose population is still great. No antibiotics, none of the complex environmental downsides of livestock production.
I always enjoyed the hunt, moving quietly through the autumn woods with the scent of leaves going back to the soil and the low golden light. Always regretted the kill , but was careful to place the shot and didn't shoot unless it was a quick kill. Apologized to the moose, as if that did any good. And the packing out was murderous sometimes if I was on foot. But what a great feeling to cut and wrap and freeze all that good meat! A family production line. Food for a year.
Every once in a while the sentience of even the slightest animals astonishes me all over again, and I understand why people become vegetarian in sympathy. It's increasingly easy with age to become all anthropomorphic and not want to kill anything at all. But I can't break the meat habit and don't really want to. So I remind myself that life eats life - it's the way the world works, the way we evolved, the way darn near everything evolved. A rationale.
And I still stomp on carpenter ants.
Too bad most of humanity doesn't have the environment and the resources to eat this way. Humanity did once, way back, but we've overpopulated and overtechnologized and overcapitalized, if there is such a word.
Had a rare beefsteak last night. Strangely, it was damn near tasteless. Maybe the cow was at a gluten-free feedlot, or fed with IVs.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 21, 2016 - 11:45am PT
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The claim/idea....
Prohibiting animal factories - while perhaps holding a lottery for meat eating (open range, traditional hunting, farming) at 1% curent levels is a great way for H. sapiens groups (eg, nations one by one) to show they have advanced yet another step in (high) civilization.
Gives new meaning to the One Per cent in sociopolitics, eh?
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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The truth about meat? It's yummy!
My organic grass-fed beef and lamb comes from 3 miles away. Yummmm!
Local bone broths and stocks, too.
Rogue Creamery butter a big leap 14 miles away is the best ever!
As a therapeutic diet for circumscribed period vegan diet can be a great reset. For some conditions I won't take some patients unless they will do it for 6 months or so.
As a long-term diet veganism seems to a religion make. The Bible is The China Study - a textbook example of taking sound science and spinning a lie.
I'll take this path, thank you very much - The Island Where People Forget To Die
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/magazine/the-island-where-people-forget-to-die.html
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Not sure what you're trying to say there Mark. You link proves long healthy life from low/no animal product diets combined with healthy social life.
Thanks very much!
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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It's not a vegan diet.
Just because eating a standard American diet (SAD) is really BAD and eating way less meat is way gooder doesn't mean eating no meat is best.
That's the point.
Locker, my wife makes this amazing iron skillet cornbread and then she mixes it up in oven skillet bacon pieces and maple syrup! Oh my god that's good! I'd be 400 pounds if I ate that Southern all the time, but once in a while is heaven!
If you're coming by Ashland sometime come on by and we'll do that up!
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monolith
climber
state of being
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So what, Mark? The epi studies show the lower the animal products the better. The SDA in the blue zone are mostly vegan. Just because some of these blue zone diets have small amounts of animal products, does not justify your high beef/lamb/cream diet.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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How many cows go into a 12 oz package of beef jerky...?
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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The consumption of protein made our ancestors brains larger which gave rise to human self loathing.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Contractor, true.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Sometimes I wonder about Supertopo. And then I think, no, it's not supertopo, it's the world.
Consider Mark Force's post, above, in which he provides a link to an NYT story about an island in the Aegean where people live extraordinarily long lives.
There were brief mentions in the piece about diet, including the fact that these long-lived islanders ate relatively little meat.
And what happens? Immediately trumpets blared about the relative worth of meat in the human diet. "Meat bad!" "Meat good!" blah blah vomit infinitum.
Didn't anybody realize that there were other things common to the life of these islanders that were different from your life in LA or New York?
Like the fact, repeated several times in the piece, that the biggest difference between life on Ikaria and on other islands nearby, and between Ikaria and virtually everywhere else in the world, was that islanders paid no attention to clocks?
Wake the f*#k up. (Or, perhaps more important, Go back to sleep for a couple more hours).
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Brief mentions of diet? Did you read the article Ghost? Much was discussed about social structure but I would hardly call the diet discussion insignificant.
Since Mark posted the link to support his high beef/lamb/cream diet, forgive us if we focus on the diet.
All the blue zones have healthy social structures as well as low animal product consumption.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Ghost- your critical analysis of criticisms of the original criteria exemplifies the that a forum revolves around critique.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Brief mentions of diet? Did you read the article Ghost?
Of course I did. It's just that I don't view every story/article/thought about life through the lens of "Meat is horrible". There are other things in the universe than the consumption of the flesh of dead animals that impact the quality and length of human life.
Maybe you should go back and re-read -- with the anti-meat blinders off.
I'm neither a meat advocate nor a meat hater. But I do try to keep my brain engaged when I read.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Monolith, You really are a puritanical evangelical aren't you!
You make assumptions - my diet is plant-based Mediterranean pattern.
Stop calling diets almost vegan as a proof for a vegan diet. If there is any animal fat or protein in the diet it is not vegan!!!!
You don't have to eat meat - you just need some animal fat and protein in the diet. So, you can be a vegetarian - BIG difference between that and vegan.
We are omnivores!!!
Because Ikarians only eat a little meat and they're so healthy doesn't mean none is better - that's the lie that the China Study purports. They may be on to something.
So I'll mimic their pattern. Cuz I want to look and feel like this when I'm old!
Sometimes, I find that I've eaten a whole day and it's been vegan....
...so the next day a make up for it and have my cornbread-bacon-maple syrup heaven!
Full disclosure: That's actually a rather rare treat. Mimosa with prosecco are more common - gotta work on my Mediterranean diet!
Can't wait to eat Sicilian prosciutto and drink Sicilian wine in good company, conversation and laughs!
Ghost has it right - there's more to the equation than only the diet!
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Mei
Trad climber
mxi2000.net
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There are other things than the quality and length of our own individual human life. The film (also on Netflix) touched upon that aspect from a certain angle.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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^^^^Indeed!!!!
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Anastasia
climber
Home
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Ikaria!
I am Ikarian, that's my family in that picture! :) So much to say!!!!
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Anastasia
climber
Home
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Long life is about caring, having purpose, not so hung up on money and... They find screw ups entertaining not damning.
You eat fresh, less meat but really the big one is they enjoy life by the simple things. Working in the sun, teasing a neighbor. They threw away the clock. Their clock is more about being where they are needed.
Food is lentils, fish, olive oil, diversity, not processed stuff and unfiltered honey plus wild herbs and tea.
I think the real kicker is they have purpose and people around them value them, care, interact. They care more, hate way less, don't care to judge but do love to mess with you, tease you, etc. They care about their fellow man, love their neighbor and life is way simpler.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Thank you, Anastasia!
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Predictable.
Why do people get defensive when others talk about their choice to not eat meat? Funny how people who have nothing to contribute on the topic chime in to tease, possibly offend and add nonsense to something that is important to others.
Does my choice to not eat meat make you feel insecure or something? I don't get it.
Mei: I watched that doc (What the Health) and I thought it was pushing the vegan agenda (plus it was depressing). I have been watching a lot of these food/health docs on Netflix and they seem to contradict one another. There's the anti-sugar ones, the anti-wheat, anti-meat. The one doc about sugar says it is the cause of most of a lot of our issues. What the Health says it isn't sugar, but animal products, etc. etc. I think I am just going to live off water and grass.
I enjoyed "In Defense of Food" which presented a more balanced take on all this.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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I second reading "In Defense of Food"
All of Michael Pollan's works are thorough and thoughtful.
Michael Pollan's Three Rules for Sound Diet
1) Eat food*
2) Mostly plants
3) Not too much
* Only eat what is actually real quality food rather than processed food-like things
You're pretty much good to go with those simple rules.
My passion about the subject is from being a doc for over 30 years and seeing people get hurt from food faddism.
A sound Mediterranean dietary pattern is the antithesis of food faddism - scientifically sound and time proven.
And, as has been shared above it's not just about what we eat.
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Mei
Trad climber
mxi2000.net
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I think I am just going to live off water and grass.
Believe it or not, there are people who claim to live on air! Here is a recent story of a couple: A “BREATHARIAN” mum-and-dad of two have barely eaten for nine years as they live off “the universe’s energy”. Here is the Wikipedia link on breatharianism.
Anita, I also found the film strong on propaganda, but I blame it on the interviewer (also the director and producer), Kip Anderson. I don't think he is a good interviewer at all. That said, I found the film overall well researched. I'm sure there is some cherry picking on facts, but at least, they try not to make up "facts" (see citation list). And because it's so recent, it brought some latest researches to my attention.
I want to elaborate a little more on my "play" on user Ghost's comment, "There are other things in the universe than the consumption of the flesh of dead animals that impact the quality and length of human life." I pointed out that "There are other things than the quality and length of our own individual human life." What I meant was, there are things much bigger than our own individual life that can be impacted by what we choose to eat or not to eat. If you watch the film, you'll see what I mean.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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And just so you all know, I am not in any way trying to push meat in the human diet. The cruelty involved in the "production" of meat is staggering. And sickening.
Like Anita, upthread, I think the most sensible summary of the whole issue was offered in "In Defense of Food." Mark expanded on it, but I would add my own comment that, if you are going to eat the flesh of dead animals, then do your best to make sure the animal was raised and killed humanely.
And I repeat, if you throw away your clock, your own life will be better, regardless of what you eat.
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Mei
Trad climber
mxi2000.net
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if you throw away your clock, your own life will be better, regardless of what you eat.
I honestly don't see how all the missed appointments and work meetings will possibly make my life better. Let's face it, we don't live on the island of Ikaria where, despite a ~40% unemployment rate, everyone still somehow gets fed, and apparently with a very healthy diet too!
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WBraun
climber
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if you are going to eat the flesh of dead animals, then do your best to make sure the animal was raised and killed humanely.
Animals should raise you and then slaughter you and eat you.
You people are insane with your stoopid logics.
You're hypocrites too.
"Just do onto others as you would want them to do onto you." is your stoopid logics and dumb morals.
Then you turn around and slaughter everything sight.
Do you even think those animals want to be slaughtered?
Why do think the Buddha came?
Because you stoopid people were killing all the animals and slaughtering everything.
He said to stop this nonsense you're doing.
Dumb ass stoopid people .....
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originalpmac
Mountain climber
Anywhere I like
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I wonder if the animals were killing and slaughtering all of us if an animal buddha would come along. Maybe a Siddartha Goat-ama!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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I honestly don't see how all the missed appointments and work meetings will possibly make my life better.
Yeah Mei, I know. I, too, have deadlines and meetings. So the throwing away of the clock must be at least partly metaphorical, but it is nonetheless important.
But there is another way to look at this. You say being on time for your appointments and meetings makes your life better. But how much better does "being on time" make your life? Maybe there are ways to modify the rush to Ulcer City without nullifying all the good things that your job gives you.
Worth thinking about.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Rejoice- guilt free meet consumption is just around the corner!
Cultured meat creation process goes something like this: myosatellite cells, a kind of stem cell that repairs muscle tissue, are taken from a cow neck and put in containers along with fetal calf serum (the medium, which will eventually switch to a non-animal source). The cells are placed onto gel in a plastic dish, where the calf serum’s nutrients are reduced, triggering the cells to go into starvation mode and split into muscle cells. Those cells eventually merge into muscle fibers called myotubes and start synthesizing protein. The end product is a tissue strip, described by the New York Times as “something like a short pink rice noodle.
Of course there's nothing like Fetal calf serum with a nice Chianti.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Jul 11, 2017 - 03:55am PT
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How's your back, Cosmic?
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jul 11, 2017 - 09:59am PT
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Yummy, yum, yum
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jul 12, 2017 - 04:28pm PT
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My truth about meat: I eat it as often as I can, especially grass fed beef. Grilled; medium rare, please; with a glass of the finest Pinot Noir and a green salad with Italian dressing and a loaded baked potato.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jul 12, 2017 - 10:30pm PT
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hey there say, anastasia... wow, say, as to this...
i pray a lot, well, always (not to push this on folks, just so you know my 'starting base) ... and well, since i do... it kind of helps me just get a FEEL for my day, each day...
so, i really DO live like this:
Their clock is more about being where they are needed.
if i ever DO have an appointment, which is rare now, that i have no younger kids around, etc... well-- i make sure i 'listen to my body, and my day' and GET READY for, and make sure i am not late... but-- other than that,
i use the general TIME FRAME that my friends need my help, at...
i really only have a time-frame for me, at home, but not by the clock...
i do NEED the clock if my friend wants me at her at a certain time, for lunch, or her apt, but-- these 'time' issue FALL INTO PLACE with ease,
when don't live by the clock as a type of RULE...
it is amazing... we used to live that way in south texas, too...
had only a few rare apts, and the kid's school and football games, but,
it was a LOT MORE EASY going... in south texas... the culture, too...
as to the food... yeah, we can't always help it, what is in our grasp to buy, but-- i only use real food, and did for my kids... however, their dad's life-style was a lot different, so, my kids kind of have a middle-trail, though:
now that they are older and have kids, at least HALF of my kids, are opting for more REAL foods... though, two are one the 'heavy meat eating side' like their dad was, and i get worried... :( his side of the family, the dad and three sons, never made it past 64, 67, and 60?? something-- though there was HUGE alcoholic-use here, as well, :(
the main point i wanted to share, though, is like anastasia:
live for your purpose, for those in your circle that you must care for, and over-lap to others, and share life... eat to live, and do your work well, and not make yourself sick... :)
well, if possible, :)
i have some twin buddies that raise their own beef, and only eat that, and not store-bought... i might take a bit of meat, perhaps once a year, depending on what is being served... but, mainly just make my own simple foods...
very interesting to hear all this...
thank you, everyone, for sharing...
would be nice if we could all grow our own foods, but that does not work very well-- though it is fun to try, and see things sprout up! :)
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Jul 13, 2017 - 01:48pm PT
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Monolith, Yer barkin' up the wrong tree.
The primary causes of arteriosclerosis are overconsumption of omega-6 polyunsaturated (PUFA) oils in the diet - mostly soybean, cottonseed, sunflower seed, corn and safflower oil - combined with high sugar consumption - especially from corn - and low consumption of vegetables to control CRP.
Note: One of the best ways to lower CRP is lots of veggies and vegetable juicing.
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Anastasia
climber
Home
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Jul 13, 2017 - 09:49pm PT
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40% unemployment means they work the land. Also why time isn't important. You wake up before the sun, put in a full day before 10 am and then return in the afternoon. I did it while there. Unemployment does not include those who refuse to pay taxes on their own hard labor to feed themselves. Hard because Greece's land is not mechanically farm friendly. They farm on terraces using old techniques that haven't changed for a hundred years. But what do I know, I'm just related to every soul there. Farmers and fisherman don't need watches to work their asses off. Still, it is hard and yet way less stressful.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jul 13, 2017 - 11:51pm PT
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hey there say, mark... say, is this DUE to folks eating so much fried-fast-foods, as, they are FRIED in these oils?? and then, of course, to add to that, well, if they fry food at home?
just curious... :) as, i would think this is so, as to the oils...
but, there may be more to it than that, so just thought i'd ask, :)
and, of course, sugar, and corn syrup are in ?nearly all? the boxed, etc, and frozen 'pre meal's ( the stuff that is not home made) ... and that is
easily bought and consumed, as well, by humans...
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Jul 14, 2017 - 06:10am PT
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neebee, you got it!
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jul 15, 2017 - 11:27pm PT
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hey there, say, mark... good to know, thanks! :)
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jul 16, 2017 - 12:25am PT
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Spunky...Hey there say...Is that the Colonels extra crispy range free..?
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Jul 18, 2017 - 10:09pm PT
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So I'm a little late to the party, but
a single pound of cooked beef, a family meal’s worth of hamburgers Whoever calculated that number certainly didn't have any teenage boys in their family!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 24, 2017 - 08:04am PT
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A truth that I have noticed is that the more well done someone likes their steaks the more poltically conservative they are likely to be my. I, for one, love steak tartare.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jul 24, 2017 - 02:42pm PT
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http://prime-13.com/steak-lovers-criticize-overcooked-meat/
Texans are pretty darned conservative, in large. But to say that is stretching it, man, and a result of shallow thinking, I bet.
There is a cult of predominately Texans, however, in which steaks are cooked till they burn, the more char the better. Never understood that predilection.
I have never intentionally "blackened" any food in the cooking, either.
What's up with that?
This is up with that.
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/food/2010/06/shoeleather_reporting.html
"It's a struggle to prefer well-done in an underdone world,
as the mania for underdone meat now extends even to white meat."
As I sit down to a bowl of freshly-cooked cabbage/carrot soup with a base of caldo de res.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 24, 2017 - 03:15pm PT
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It's not considered "meat" until the animal it came from is dispatched...humanely or not.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jul 24, 2017 - 03:26pm PT
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Yummylicious. Cut me another slice of that colorectal cancer!
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Jul 24, 2017 - 04:03pm PT
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The truth about this meat is that it's tasty and wild.
2 hours to catch, 4 hours to process, frozen before it was 8 hours past time of death.
Probably will smoke 20 of them or so. Friends don't let friends eat farmed fish.
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