Discussion Topic |
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Conrad
climber
MT
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 21, 2006 - 09:55am PT
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While climbing in Yosemite and Tuolumne over the past years I have noticed the extra loud nature of Harley Davidson motorcycles. Pretty much the entire valley is affected by the aural pollution of these motorcycles. They are louder than the sanitation & supply trucks that service the valley. Should you be climbing in the meadows and a “ride in” is in progress you’ll be reminded of their presence. Hike to the top of Dana? Still there.
Aside from an aesthetical disturbance, my hunch is that loud pipes affect animals. Does the National Park Service have a decibel limitation?
No umbrage to those of you that ride Harley Davidson or other loud motorcycles.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Jul 21, 2006 - 10:02am PT
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Unfortunately, when it comes to vehicles the NPS defers to the state laws. However, what the NPS could do is require that they travel in small groups so that the combined noise is lessoned. However, I am not sure which would be worse one large pack of noisy rats or several small groups of noisy rats. Either way I agree as during our last visit we had to put with their noise verberating through the meadows.
BTW We just had some boys move into the hood with crotch rockets - their welecome ended at 12am when they decided to race down the street.
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Gunkie
climber
East Coast US
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Jul 21, 2006 - 10:21am PT
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We have the same problem in the Gunks. You can't hear your belayer when climbing in the south end of the Trapps near the 44/55 hairpin when these things roar up or down the hill.
Odd thing, if your car was that loud you could and probably would receive a ticket. It happened right in front of my house to a neighbor who builds custom cars. But the motorcycles roar right by without the slightest worry.
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hardman
Trad climber
love the eastern sierras
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Jul 21, 2006 - 10:26am PT
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millbrook=no noise
hi conrad when you coming back to gunks? it was fun climbing w/ you out here. hope i didn't sandbag you.
cheers
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the Fet
climber
A urine, feces, and guano encrusted ledge
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Jul 21, 2006 - 10:29am PT
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I love the torque and comfort of riding a Harley, but those idiots who put loud aftermarket pipes on them are lame. Ride because you enjoy it, not so you're saying "look at me and how cool I am on my rediculously loud badass bike". They might as well wear tight pink lycra if they crave attention that bad.
Every time I hear a bike like that, or see other lame attention grabbing stupidity (e.g. giant SUVs with low profile tires) I picture that person with "I'm an idiot" tatooed on their forehead.
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pc
climber
East of Seattle
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Jul 21, 2006 - 11:57am PT
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And what's with the rev'ing? Perpetual rev'ing! Bugs the shite out of me.
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hardman
Trad climber
love the eastern sierras
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Jul 21, 2006 - 12:07pm PT
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most of those dudes don't even know how to ride a bike.
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DavisGunkie
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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Jul 21, 2006 - 12:08pm PT
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not to justify it, but most of the places we all climb at are gotten to via scenic drives, which make nic erides
secondly, loud bikes mean a car can hear you and not hit you. granted what a lot of these people have are probably excessive but still
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Jul 21, 2006 - 12:18pm PT
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yeah kinda funny how if you make noise after 10pm in the parks, you'll most likely(and rightly so)get a visit from the man telling you to quiet down, heck it can happen in the day if yer loud enough, but send these bikes and some cars/trucks through the park....no problem. Have one pull in at 2 or 3 in the morning, forget about it! Maybe the $20.00 per unit makes the difference. Wish they'd do something about it.
Peace
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 21, 2006 - 12:20pm PT
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Annoyingly loud motorcycles are a problem in Squamish also, where some of the cliffs are quite close to the Vancouver-Squamish-Whistler highway. It is a scenic and busy road, and traffic noise in general is high. But when a plague of motorcycles goes by, it gets really loud - and unlike trucks, they at least have the option of being reasonably quiet. Sometimes it's loud enough to impair climbers' communications.
You have to wonder about the underlying motivations of the drivers. Most people, even climbers, outgrow the need to make loud noises and indulge in similar attention-getting behaviour by their early twenties. Perhaps it's a middle-age adequacy thing.
Motorcycles do tend to use less fossil fuels, although I don't know many climbers who travel in that fashion. Not often practical in terms of weather and payload.
I've heard of the hypothesis that louder motorcycles are more noticed by other drivers, and would be interested in any factual evidence to support it.
I was in Jackson, Wyoming about a year ago, and obnoxiously loud motorcycles were a problem there also.
There are times when climbers themselves might be quieter, and show more consideration for their neighbours. Both at the crag, and in camp. This drumming fetish, for example. It really is annoying, to almost everyone else. Even away from camp, it may disturb the wildlife if not the neighbours.
Anders
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Jul 21, 2006 - 12:30pm PT
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I've been annoyed by loud motorcycles for years now. You can go 5 miles or more off the main roads in the White Mtns in New England and you can still hear them down in the valleys. A buddy of mine owns a shop that specializes in racing bikes and even he can't stand it. He is a state licenced motorcycle inspector and routinely fails ones that are over the state limits on decibels. So what the guys do is put the stock pipes on for the inspection then go home and put the straight pipes on. It's true that if your car was that loud you'd get a faulty equipment or excessive noise summons. My wife called the local and state police plus the state department of transportation but they all just blew it off or plead ignorance of the state law. My father-in-law is a Harley owner and he can't stand the noise. He used to have straight pipes but later realized how stupid it was to have to wear earplugs while riding.
Funny thing: the guy with the shop calls Harleys 'farm equipment'.
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Shumaker
Trad climber
Salt Lake City, Utah
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Jul 21, 2006 - 12:40pm PT
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IMHO I think Yosemite should follow the lead of Zion and adopt a strict no vehicle policy and implement a regular shuttle service for people to use. There would be some tweeks to this practice in the valley (camper trailers etc.) and certain differences would have to be addressed but I think this would be a step in the right direction. I was furious when Zion began the shuttle program but now I embrace it and am thankful for it everytime I climb there. The peace and solitude is priceless and when the sun goes down the place is virtually vacant except for people on the wall. If Ed had his way, people would have to bike or walk into our parks and actually put some work into the entire affair instead of snapping photos from inside their tin boxes.
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scuffy b
climber
Chalet Neva-Care
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Jul 21, 2006 - 12:43pm PT
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I grew up in Oakland. A friend lived next door to the President of the Hell's Angels. In those days really loud bikes got attention from cops. What most Angels rode in those days would be sort medium loudness by today's standards. I saw what apparently was the whole Northern California chapter in full colors being filmed for "Hell's Angels On Wheels". It wasn't as
bad as a lot of groups going by these days.
When I see Angels riding these days, they are on Harleys at the
quiet end of the spectrum. They're also the ones with the skinniest tires and least flashiness.
A lot of today's Harley riders seem to be aiming for the old-style "rebel" look and sound. The real deal has moved beyond that.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 21, 2006 - 12:43pm PT
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I wonder if any of the bikers say, "These darn rockclimbers are always cluttering up the view. You can't see the cliffs in their natural state without some crap glinting in the sun and messing up my photos. Don't they know other people use these parks too?"
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 21, 2006 - 12:45pm PT
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OMG! loud Harleys
There goes the neighborhood ........
Bitch, bitch, bitch
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 21, 2006 - 12:50pm PT
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There's something very unsettling about Werner agreeing with me. haha
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Jul 21, 2006 - 12:54pm PT
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I don't think he's agreeing with you. I think he is being sarcastic.
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
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Jul 21, 2006 - 12:55pm PT
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Also one of my biggest pet peeves. I work just outside Tuolumne. We had a pack of a dozen of those noisy beasts pull in here last week. Made me want to scream.
All they did was use the toilets and move on.
Good thing I get to enjoy this place when the road closes..........
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 21, 2006 - 01:00pm PT
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Wootles,
I wasn't?
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Jul 21, 2006 - 01:03pm PT
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roger that PR...
resuming minding my own biz
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hardman
Trad climber
love the eastern sierras
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Jul 21, 2006 - 01:12pm PT
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scuffy were they the dudes at the rolling stones show
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Jul 21, 2006 - 01:18pm PT
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It's not just Yosemite. It's everywhere these days. I don't understand the desire to engineer a motorcycle to be as lound as possible. Cleary an attention ploy and probably some sort of small penis issue that most of these riders are dealing with.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 21, 2006 - 01:25pm PT
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When I lived in SF (North Beach) the Riders would make a game
of going down the street and setting of car alarms (from their bike's vibrations) as they drove by.
A pretty funny sight/sound at midnight, the bikes would be gone, but they'd leave behind a blocks of hootin' cars...
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phoolish
Boulder climber
Athens, Ga.
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Jul 21, 2006 - 01:27pm PT
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I used to work at the Coffee Corner, and I lived at the Terrace employee section in the rockfall zone under Glacier Point. About thirty feet from my tent was the foundation and electrical hookup box for a tent that got crushed in the late '90s rockfall.
Anyway, during the orientation thing, one of the points the housing folks stressed was that if you hear a really loud rumbling, get out of the tent and behind a huge boulder fast.
One night, I was merrily sleeping away, and suddenly a fierce rumbling woke me up. I dashed outside, hoping not to be smashed to bits, but it was only some as#@&%e on a straight-pipe Harley, cruising in front of the Arches meadow at 3 am, echoing like mad.
I hate those things. People who drive them are as#@&%es.
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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Jul 21, 2006 - 01:28pm PT
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Quit bitchin' on here and go talk to 'em. You're not going to get your a** kicked; this ain't the 70's anymore, guys touring in the national parks on harleys are probably professionals or successful small business owners or whatever. They may not agree with you, but they're the kind of people who will at least listen. If they're in the park for 3 days and 10 people talk to them about how they think loud pipes spoil the park for everyone and aren't really necessary for safety when touring in groups, it's going to make a dent in their psyche. They may tone it down, or they might just take their next vacation where they won't catch as much crap.
As a road cyclist, I'm sick of this "loud pipes save lives" BS, though. It's the same argument as "3 ton SUV's save lives;" screw it, why not just drive a panzer or a bradley? We cyclists seem to stay as safe or safer than bikers while running dead silent, if loud pipes were the only route to safety we'd be stacking roadies like cordwood.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Jul 21, 2006 - 01:29pm PT
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Whoa! They used the toilets! What is this world coming to?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 21, 2006 - 01:31pm PT
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Nonetheless Phoolish, a funny story.
Landgolier, I agree with the part about safety in loudness being a specious claim, but as much as I enjoy riding on the street I just won't do it any more.
The reason of course are the drivers who AREN'T on bikes. They don't see you and YOU lose.
There are two types of bikers. Those that have been down, and those that are going down.
I'm not going down again.
So, yes, SUVs do have better survivability. And if you know of a good deal on a Bradley let me know.
And if the rest of you don't like the noise you're not doing a long enough approach.
(That being said, the bivies in Zion with no shuttle or other vehicles from 10:00PM to 6:00AM are quite serene. But its a tradeoff. Takes twice as long to get to the base, and back to your car.)
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Jul 21, 2006 - 01:44pm PT
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re."I wonder if any of the bikers say, "These darn rockclimbers are always cluttering up the view. You can't see the cliffs in their natural state without some crap glinting in the sun and messing up my photos."
I doubt it. Usually they're in ElCap meadow asking for someone to point out the climbers to them.
I've never heard a climber ask for help in order to hear a Harley roar by.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Bodega, CA
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Jul 21, 2006 - 01:44pm PT
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My favorite is when the bar across the street from my shop participates in an unannounced (to me) poker run. It's a regular weekend biker stop anyhow, but when 300-400 bikers roll into our tiny town after hitting four or five other bars, things get sorta rowdy. The sheriff just sits at the edge of town, visible, but not active. The town just shuts down, I'll close for lunch and go home cuz it's pointless to be here and the burning rubber and testosterone levels drive me nuts. The cackling smoker's laugh of the biker chicks doesn't help either. Thought it was hilarious when this one guy was sporting a shirt that said "If you can read this, the bitch fell off." They're usually nice guys though and don't cause any trouble beyond mild nuisance and noise pollution. Really bad for my business though.
And I agree about the park. It sucks. If a fixed anchor is ruining somebody's wilderness experience, loud bikers certainly are doing the same.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jul 21, 2006 - 01:51pm PT
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The loud Harley's should be outlawed and the riders run off the road. The riders are total narcissistic as#@&%es.
That is the way I really feel.
Should I tell stories of trolling for bikers on Angeles Crest?
After having about ten of the ninja as#@&%es cross over into my lane and nearly hit me, and seeing two other accidents caused by motorcylists. I decided that I owned my lane and started driving right on the yellow line.
Juan
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scuffy b
climber
Chalet Neva-Care
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Jul 21, 2006 - 02:03pm PT
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Hardman, Yes, it was they (Oakland Hell's Angels) at the Rolling Stones show.
It amuses me that the modern trend is toward the outlaw aura, while the outlaw guys are straighter looking. Hell's Angels wear real helmets, not the legal minimum, not the faux German WWII dealies, not so much black leather fringe and chaps, etc.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 21, 2006 - 02:12pm PT
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Definition of Puritan: Someone who stays up late on Saturday night, worrying that somewhere someone may be having fun.
Edit: I'm surprised that they managed to sneak "pursuit of happiness" into your constitution. Whatever happiness is... Like Stalin's grave, must have been some sort of wacko pinko commie plot. Some sort of conspiracy, anyway.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Jul 21, 2006 - 02:17pm PT
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Motorcycles rage,
Ephemerally.
Toleration flows.
Tranquility returns.
Harmony reigns.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Jul 21, 2006 - 02:30pm PT
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DavisGunkie wrote:
"secondly, loud bikes mean a car can hear you and not hit you."
only someone with very little experience on bikes would write such a thing.
Loud bikes are a way of saying. "no one liked me when i was a kid. WHAAAAAAA!!"
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jul 21, 2006 - 02:43pm PT
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Davis Gunkie sez:
"secondly, loud bikes mean a car can hear you and not hit you"
I've heard the same excuse Mr Gunkie heard from those guys.
When they try to feed me that line of crap I will ask them, if being noticed by cars is so damn important, why is their standard uniform BLACK? From head to toe.
If they were serious about being noticed by cars, common sense says wear bright colors. Like Blaze Orange, or Flo Green.
But common sense doesn't seem to be their strong subject.
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Conrad
climber
MT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2006 - 02:52pm PT
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Wow... didn't think this was going to stir up the hornet's nest. I have spoken to bikers at the TM grill. They were indifferent to the fact they were loud. It probably did register with them. I also ask the entrance booth attendants if they are irked by the loud machines and they generally are. I asked a ranger with the Yosemite NPS if there is a decible limit. Yes - but it is seldom enforced.
One way to let them know they are loud is when you hear an approaching pack hold your palms to your ears. They get the message.
The Zion approach is great - I doubt Yosemite will have a similar plan in the near future.
Again - no embrage to the loud tail enthusiasts.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Bodega, CA
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Jul 21, 2006 - 03:48pm PT
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How does that apply to custom choppers? ie: no assembly line.
loud or unusual I guess.
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BoKu
Trad climber
Douglas Flat, CA
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Jul 21, 2006 - 03:53pm PT
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Dingus wrote:
> Don't worry mates! Half those middle aged
> harley losers are pending roadkill anyway!
Maybe so, but by their looks too many of them are pretty limited in their organ donation potential.
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quietpartner
Trad climber
Moantannah
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Jul 21, 2006 - 04:00pm PT
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Best cure for a loud bike in the neighborhood is to spray some water on a corner at night, let it freeze, and watch the biker drop! (Not that I'd ever do that)
Think I'll get back on my Harley now....
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quietpartner
Trad climber
Moantannah
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Jul 21, 2006 - 04:02pm PT
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Best cure for a loud bike is to spray some water on a corner at night, let it freeze, and watch the biker drop! (Not that I'd ever do it)
Think I'll get back on my Harley now...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 21, 2006 - 04:24pm PT
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Hey Jody, have you ever used the trick of cuffing spokes to a fork to immobilize ("boot") a motorcycle.
I did that once to a dirt biker who was trespassing on my land while I called the sheriff. His bike had no kickstand and he didnt want to dump it given the terrain at that location so he just stood there holding it up and screaming at me. Wish I had a video camera back then.
Sheriff thought it was pretty slick.
Later same schmuck got caught tearing down my neighbor's no trespassing sign.
I like dirt biking but those kinds of idiots have really turned me off to it. I see how they needlessly tear things up, and then adding insult to injury they leave trash.
Seems to me that it is a worse problem than (apparently easily citable) noisy street bikes on legitimate roadways.
Perhaps if enough people took the time to complain then the rangers might be more inclined to pursue noise reduction (besides of course busting climbing revellers.)
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burp
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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Jul 21, 2006 - 04:47pm PT
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Howdy,
Anyone been in Japan and heard bosozoku? You don't hear them during the day, but through the night cruising up and down the streets. Usually in roving bands.
They ride superbikes with or without the muffler, gear it way down (not kidding, I've seen some bosozoku give full on throttle and still just crawl along), and rev up the engine to make it as loud as possible.
Pretty bizarre and unique to Japan.
Enjoy!
burp
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Jul 21, 2006 - 05:15pm PT
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Davis Gunkie wrote:
"secondly, loud bikes mean a car can hear you and not hit you."
I can't hear a fukin' thing coming from outside of my car when I have my stereo cranked. Also, many luxury cars and SUV's tout how they can shut out the outside noise.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 21, 2006 - 05:25pm PT
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I guess those bosozoku bozos never heard what riding a riceburner is like.
Hint; feels OK 'til someone sees you doing it.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Jul 21, 2006 - 06:08pm PT
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With the many really great rides being made today (compared to when I rode a lot in the late '70's on Bonnevilles etc.,) I cannot imagine having a Harley. Sh*t, revving a Harley is like beating a dead horse...
And I don't buy the "noise is making me safer" line. Sure, loud pipes are good for lane splitting. But being sober and having oscillating headlights will do a lot more to keep you alive.
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
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Jul 21, 2006 - 07:57pm PT
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Not only are they too loud, they are down right scary to ride.
I rode 'rice burners' when I was younger. Mine was loud, but not as loud as a Harley. Had a friend buy a new Sportster and rave about it. On a road trip, I asked him if we could swap so I could see what all the fuss was about. I couldn't wait to get off it, it was top heavy and handled like sh#t. I also found out why he had been so far behind us the whole way, it was slow!
He was loath to give me my bike back :)
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jul 21, 2006 - 08:50pm PT
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" There's something very unsettling about Werner agreeing with me. haha "
Sarcasm aside, it's best to remember, these are two guys who Don't hear said bikes in their respective climbing areas. (much)
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 21, 2006 - 08:57pm PT
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I hear them well Jaybro (low frequencies I hear well) and I feel for conrads plight. I just said it to confuse poor Piton Ron :-)
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jul 21, 2006 - 09:00pm PT
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My bad, good work, anyway!
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SammyLee
Trad climber
Memphis
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Jul 21, 2006 - 09:13pm PT
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I have two bikes, a Suzuki SV650 and a Kawasaki KLR dual sport and I ride the hell out of them. My nephew is the service manager of a BIG Harley shop here in Memphis. My niece is a MSF instructor at the same shop. Naturally, they ride Hogs.
We HATE loud pipes. Besides being so obnoxious, they are a danger to the future of motorcycles. The more they aggravate people, the less freedom we'll have and more and more campgrounds etc. will prohibit bikes.
BUT, anyone who puts ice, sand, greese, etc. on the road or intentionally rides close to the yellow line, is courting manslaughter. Does anyone really want that blood on their hands? That image in their minds the rest of their lives?
My life as a rider is in constant danger because of cagers, all unintentional as far as I know. If someone wants to kill me outright, I'd really prefer to get off my bike, them out of their car and we can go head to head.
Too hot to climb tomorrow so my niece and I are doing a 400 mile, 4 state ride. With quiet pipes.
Sam
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 21, 2006 - 09:44pm PT
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I'm so confused.
When Werner hears those low frequencies does he run and hide behind the boulders hugging Phoolish?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jul 21, 2006 - 09:58pm PT
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I'm completely cornfused.
werner kidding ron kidding werner...
the noise in my head is un-bearable!
brap brap brap
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Jul 22, 2006 - 01:59am PT
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"120 unmuffled American cylinders, reverberating through the canyon, sounding like the theme music for the end of the world . . . . . " - HST, c. 1966
I would rather follow a group of bikes on the road, than a bloated and slow Winnebago (compact car strapped to the roof) threatening to capsize at every turn.
The noise is obnoxious. And the California noise laws make no sense at all. A friend put some sort of farting muffler on his Honda Civic and got a ticket. It was probably 20 dB quieter than a typical Harley.
Is exhaust noise a form of free speech?
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phoolish
Boulder climber
Athens, Ga.
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Jul 22, 2006 - 03:15am PT
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t*r
I lived there in the summer and fall of 2004, bumming around after college. I loved that area; it felt much more remote than boys town or whatever that other one was called.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Jul 22, 2006 - 08:51am PT
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One time a biker rode out into the meadow in Toulumne leaving a sizeable rut. When the rangers stopped him they took his key, would not let him ride out and gave him a choice: either pay for a helicopter lift out or take the bike apart and carry it piece by piece back to the road. One of LEO's finest hours.
Peter
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Jul 22, 2006 - 09:07am PT
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So how about a petition to have them banned from national parks, monuments, and forests. I have to believe park service officials would be more in favor than agaisnt. Of course with the current administration the secretary of the interior would find herself out a job pretty quick if she went along. Perhaps individual parks have some control over such matters. Yellowstone must be horrendous also.
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Sioux Juan
Big Wall climber
Costa Mexico
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Jul 22, 2006 - 09:21am PT
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don't ban the bike ....ban the noise
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Jul 22, 2006 - 09:25am PT
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Yes, that's what I meant but didn't I guess I left it out.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 22, 2006 - 09:32am PT
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SOP, Maysho.
Once in the 70s a couple of trials riders came down the LaVerkin Creek bed from the Kolob (actually a pretty remarkable accomplishment, their tracks were found sometimes a meter up vertical rock) and almost made it out of the park before encountering district ranger Hal Greenlee on one of his exceedingly rare patrols.
Besides citations they had to disassemble their bikes and carry them out.
But a trials bike is MUCH lighter than a road bike.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Jul 22, 2006 - 09:51am PT
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I think whats missing from this thread is HOW YOU RIDE a bike.
Even with "staight pipes" i can idle a 1300cc harley past camp 4 and not be noticed.
Aftermarket exhaust companies today cater to the whims of a generation of riders only interested in posing as motorcyclists. (sound familiar?)
many of these posers want loud pipes so they can make lots of noise and these manufacurers are more than happy to help.
Real motorcyclists know that a certain amount of back pressure is needed in four cycle engines for performance and to keep valves cool. The majority of people that ride around on really loud harleys will be doing whatever is fashionable a few years from now, but unfortunately will be replaced by other posers.
There are db limits on bikes in California on the street as well as off-road, and they should be enforced, especially in our national parks where they not only disturb others but influence public opinion of motorcycles.
I ride everyday. i ride street and off-road. Motorcycles are a way of life for me. it is the trendy rider that takes away many of the freedoms allowed to the motorcycle community.
The same as the trendy climber takes away from our chosen sport.
These are some of my rides and i can be really loud on them or i can be damn quiet. I choose to ride quietly when i know i am influencing others.
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Rankin
climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 22, 2006 - 03:09pm PT
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Harley 'posers' do the same thing on the Blue Ridge Parkway. I try to grin and bear it, but sometimes its hard not to hate these guys. I understand that riding can be super fun. But HDs are really crappy bikes. They handle like station wagons, are loud and ugly, but more than anything, I find the 'HD biker' culture to be contentious and stupid. I can appreciate the need for speed, and crotch-rockets can get super loud when they're opened up, but they don't bother me too much. It's the HD culture that is so lame and offensive. And another thing, the women you usually find on HDs are hideous. Disgusting really. I don't believe in ugly sexy. Yuk.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 22, 2006 - 03:42pm PT
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Well Jody,
I think you've got a better chance with that than trying to cite a Harley owner for carrying a "hideous, disgusting" passenger.
Good thing the rangers can't cite people for THAT.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Jul 22, 2006 - 04:31pm PT
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"Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves."
- Carl Jung
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BOMBER
Social climber
yOSEMITE
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Jul 22, 2006 - 05:13pm PT
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Just last week a friend & I were commenting on the same subject. I feel that to enter the Park, one should have to pass a decibel meter. Too high a volume of noise, the vehicle cannot come into the park. It's that simple. Those bike engines are so loud you can hear them from miles away. Keep them out of the park I say.
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 22, 2006 - 05:28pm PT
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Old Black and White I took of some noisy bikers in Yosemite back in 1957.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Bodega, CA
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Jul 22, 2006 - 07:02pm PT
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"One time a biker rode out into the meadow in Toulumne leaving a sizeable rut. When the rangers stopped him they took his key, would not let him ride out and gave him a choice: either pay for a helicopter lift out or take the bike apart and carry it piece by piece back to the road. One of LEO's finest hours."
Hi Peter. Is that a true story? How did it shake out?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 22, 2006 - 07:15pm PT
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I suspect it is, and that he opted for disassembly.
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 22, 2006 - 09:31pm PT
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 22, 2006 - 09:37pm PT
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Hahahaha .........
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 22, 2006 - 11:45pm PT
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Where do you come up with these Ouch? Hilarious!
Phoolish looks like he's a bit beyond being scared of the "low frequencies" or did Werner just hug him too tight?
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 22, 2006 - 11:58pm PT
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You're trying to stir up a ruckus, Ron. Must be a slow night in Utah. LOL!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 23, 2006 - 12:06am PT
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"Slow night in Utah"?
Is there any other kind?
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telemama
Trad climber
midpines
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Jul 23, 2006 - 03:48am PT
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Someone with more time than I have, could google Harleys being banned in Yosemite. I recall hearing rumor, maybe even reading on an NPS site that this was in fact going to happen. Maybe it was just talk though. But, I think it was supposed to happen this year, so I guess it never went through. Anyway, maybe someone will investigate...
Also, you can only hear them when they are in front of you-- AFTER they have snuck up and passed you on a double yellow--so I don't know how this makes them safer.
But... sure would be a nice view of the Park from a (quiet) motorcycle.
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Anastasia
Trad climber
Near a mountain, CA
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Jul 23, 2006 - 04:24am PT
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Oh dear...
I once kept the "quieter" stock pipes on my Harley to be civil towards my neighbors. I soon realized that there is a BIG problem with keeping quieter pipes... You have to realize that drivers generally "don't see motorcycles" on the road. When you option out to have quieter pipes they also "don't hear" you either. I was almost killed several times by cars turning blindly into me as if I didn't exist before admitting defeat. I "had" to buy loud pipes so people at least can "hear" me on the road. Ever since I bought them drivers have been" much less" likely to turn into me.
I am a rider and yes I would love to ride a quieter bike, but the safety issues...
Damn crazy drivers! At least my bike goes 70 miles per gallon and I don't take up so much space!
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jul 23, 2006 - 04:48am PT
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Do you wear bright colors when you ride?
Or are you like every motorcyclist I see wearing mostly black?
I don't ride a motorcycle, but when I ride my bicycle I always wear one of the flourescent yellow/green jerseys I picked up in about '93 when those colors were stylish.
Even though I've been hit by cars aprox. half a dozen times in the course of my two-wheeled life, never once have I been hit while wearing my "loud" jersey.
Remember, light travels a hell of a lot faster than sound.
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Anastasia
Trad climber
Near a mountain, CA
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Jul 23, 2006 - 05:01am PT
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I have a bright red helmet and a bright red leather suite that my crazy friend gave me who is also responsible for building my bike.
Good enough colors?
I personally can't stand them since I am partial towards blue and black leathers.
Yet beggars know better then getting picky about small things.
Too bad I don't have the leathers or bike anymore. Something about crowded roads in California and needing to live interfered with that habit.
I plan to pick it up later when I live in a more deserted area then the 101 freeway.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jul 23, 2006 - 05:07am PT
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Who knows, wearing red may have already saved your life.
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Jul 23, 2006 - 10:15am PT
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I always worry about cars not seeing me while I ride my bicycle so I ride with a car alarm blaring the whole time. It must be working because I'm still alive. I no longer have to ride while assuming that cars are a danger to me and can ignore them entirely. Plus I get to wear all black.
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phoolish
Boulder climber
Athens, Ga.
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Jul 23, 2006 - 03:28pm PT
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Genius, Ouch!
Doesn't look a thing like me, though.
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 23, 2006 - 03:39pm PT
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"Doesn't look a thing like me, though."
Phoolish, since I don't have a picture of you, I must use my psychic powers to paint the image you project. If you look in the mirror long enough, you will recognize what is reflected there. Or not.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 23, 2006 - 03:46pm PT
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I'm still interested in whether there is any objective evidence that un-muffled motorcycles are safer to ride, or more likely to be heard by other drivers. I suspect other factors may be more important, including defensive driving, safe motorcycle driving courses, and avoidance of marginal conditions. Many motorcycle drivers seem unaware of the limitations of their machines, blissful as to their vulnerability, and drive aggressively.
The NHTSA has a lot of useful information on its website about highway and vehicle safety, but I'm not sure if it extends to this. It might be difficult to measure. General road noise, and motorists who themselves are creating noise, are also factors.
There must be parallels with cycling. As an enthusiastic cyclist - commuting, some racing, triathlons - I was always somewhat paranoid. I learned about safety enhancing techniques. Apart from general prudence, and awareness of the instability and vulnerability of bicycles, the key lesson is that in any accident, the cyclist is always the loser. Whether self-inflicted or otherwise. The other thing is to assume that motorists NEVER see bicycles. (Vancouver has a high rate of bicycle use, too.) As cyclists as a group are unfortunately prone to somewhat erratic riding behaviour, that doesn't help - motorcycles pretty much have to stick to the road, even if they can wiggle about more than cars.
Of course, it's not open to cyclists to create offensive noise, in the hope that it will draw attention, for better or worse.
Anders
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jul 23, 2006 - 03:50pm PT
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"Of course, it's not open to cyclists to create offensive noise, in the hope that it will draw attention, for better or worse."
I was blessed with a loud, un-muffled mouth, sometimes it works to wake up motorists who won't/don't pay attention to what they're doing.
But in California it's legal for deaf people to drive.
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 23, 2006 - 03:57pm PT
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Seems to me the deteriorating highway surfaces could be a big threat to biker safety.
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Bart Fay
Social climber
Redlands, CA
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Jul 23, 2006 - 04:16pm PT
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>>>But in California it's legal for deaf people to drive.
!! IIRC its illegal to play one's stereo so loudly to be unable to hear emergency sirens (?) !! WTF, Over ?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 23, 2006 - 04:25pm PT
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I think vehicles are a bigger threat than poor road surfaces.
But when did we go from cursing loud bikes to sympathizing with cyclists. I have no qualms about cycling through Zion, now that they've (sort of) banned cars.
Ouch, I think your psychic powers reign in lieu of Phoolish failing to provide photographic evidence to the contrary.
Who was it who said, "Anyone understands english if you speak it loud enough."? Well most people can be made to look like Deadeye Dick if you bulge out their eyes enough. (Just give them the ol' braunsqueeze.)
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jul 23, 2006 - 04:29pm PT
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"All loud vehicles are for is for a "Look at me, I'm a tough guy" attitude...IMHO."
They also say "They don't sell normal sized dicks, so I bought one of these"
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Jul 23, 2006 - 08:33pm PT
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Over the last 30+ years of lane splitting on motorcyles in Los Angeles i have seen people eat, drink, talk on the phone, bong, attack thier radio, scream, read, watch TV, have sex, cry, fistfight with passangers, play boardgames, throw coffee into their drivers side window thinking it was down, put out a fire inside thier car, drink from a keg, throw a bottle at another car, show me a handgun, show me thier tits, pee in a bottle, passout, switch drivers in motion, hit a dog and keep driving, bump the car in front of them in anger,get out of thier car and dance on the median wall in standstill traffic on the 405(one of my faves) hit thier children/wife/husband/pets, open the driver door attempting to hit me, throw-up, have siezures, masturbate, play video games and pound thier head on the steering wheel.
All while driving thier cars.
It doesn't matter what you wear, who you are, how loud your pipes are or what color you helmet is.
If you want to have a long and safe riding career, ride like you are invisible.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jul 23, 2006 - 08:45pm PT
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Coming home from Riverside last week in nightmare traffic, I got a nice, friendly wave from a Hell's Angel.
I always keep my eyes moving while I'm driving, and if I see a motorcycle coming up behind me splitting traffic, I'll move over as far as I can in my lane to make it easier/safer for them to get by.
I didn't know this one guy was H.A. until he passed me, but he waved at me as he rode by.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 23, 2006 - 08:56pm PT
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Man! LA really IS the entertainment capital of the world.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jul 24, 2006 - 01:14am PT
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The classic I saw was at the corner of venice and sepulvida.
It was like 1am, and the guy in front of me waiting to make a left hand turn gets out of his jeep.
Pulls out his wang and take about a one minute piss.
Gets back in the jeep and drives off.
Love Los Angeles.
Juan
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Jul 24, 2006 - 07:16am PT
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Loud is good. If you are blind it is hard to see a motorcycle no matter what color leather the rider is wearing.
I know you probably think that it is not legal to drive blind. But why do you think manufacturers are making cars that turn the windshield wipers on automatically when it is raining?
Answer. Because the driver can hear the wipers going back and forth and knows to slow down.
Turn right, in 100 feet.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 24, 2006 - 08:23am PT
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loud bikes SUCK!!!! the safty thing is total BS. If they wanted to be safe they could start by wearing a freakin helmet........
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Anastasia
Trad climber
Near a mountain, CA
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Jul 24, 2006 - 09:37am PT
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Out here we do wear helmets... It is not my fault Vermont is backwards.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 24, 2006 - 09:53am PT
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There is one sure fire way to be seen by the typical clueless dolt driving a car:
ride a police bike.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 24, 2006 - 11:04am PT
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VT we wear helmets but just accross the border in NH all the morons don't. lost ten of em in one week back in june. Allmost all from crossing the center line. failuer to learn how to drive. the Tools with the loud bikes are also the same morons who wear those tiny skid plates or even lids that are not dot tested just to keep from getting a ticket. loud bikes do suck. You impose your noise on everyone. It also scares the heck out of you when you get buzzed by a motor head that is so loud you think you are being run over by a Truck. Bottom line is the louder your bike the smaller you weenie and less considerate you are...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 25, 2006 - 03:22pm PT
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As one is not lucky enough to find a great many threads that are graced with TWO Ouchworks I thought this deserved a bump.
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Ouch!
climber
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Jul 25, 2006 - 04:04pm PT
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Ron, I had another psychic vision. Think I have a good image of Phoolish.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 25, 2006 - 04:08pm PT
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Hey!
I just saw that guy third classing Separate Reality holding the mutt in his teeth.
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Dave Tapes
Trad climber
Silverado CA
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Jul 25, 2006 - 11:59pm PT
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I was out hiking the other day when a f#&*@g mountainbiker came by. He was riding faster then he should have been. SO I elbowed him off the trail.
I went mountain biking last weekend and a couple of f4%@&g seirra club type hikers gave me a dirty look. I flipped them off and sprayed dirt in their face.
I was riding my dirt bike on a single track in the Sierras and some g$@%#d%#$m mountain bikers tried to tell me I was ilegally riding. That really pissed my off so I revved my loud bike in there face and roosted them dinging thier nice paint jobs.
I was climbing two weeks ago and some F%$#@g motorcycle riders were spoiling my tranquility so I threw rocks at them until they left.
We all think our "fun" is more important than anyone elses. Worse yet we look for ways to put down all the "other" pursuits to elevate our own.
Sounds ridiculous but this is the sad truth. These are all things we do for fun, they are not sacred pursuits and none of them are activities vitale to life. It's just for fun!
I figured out a long time ago that exposure to other cultures and ways of life tends to reduce intolorance. The same applies to anything we don't understand or participate in for whatever reason.
DW
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 26, 2006 - 12:08am PT
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DW,
good on ya mate.
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Conrad
climber
MT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2006 - 01:15am PT
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While this began as a simple question regarding aural disturbance in Yosemite National Park and specifically decibel ceilings for motorized vehicles it quickly morphed into a standard forum discussion. To classify bikers in the terms some mentioned is not fair. As in climbing there is broad representation of society. There are probably a few Harley owning climbers who enjoy both climbing and touring with loud machines. They are, after all, just out to have a bit of fun, just as climbers are. They probably share the same views on risk and have a pretty tight group, as the scepter of death being ever present and part of the thrill. Implying loud motorcyclists have tiny reproductive organs is a bit silly. Many women ride these machines too. The idea of icing a corner is downright malicious. Pretty much every biker I’ve met would help out in a dire situation. Maybe pud’s key to motorcycle longevity can be applied to objective hazards in climbing. Be invisible – gotta like that.
My point in bringing this to our attention is perhaps the enjoyment of a few affects the enjoyment of the many. If we apply the loud pipes = safety logic to climbing in Yosemite we could justify the use of power drills. (Ignore for a moment the permanence of a bolt versus the transitory nature of noise pollution.) If power drills make it safer for the individual, should they be allowed? As we know there are places for power drills (outside of National Parks and Wilderness Areas) and places where we as climbers have to compromise to enjoy nature preserves. By the same measure there are places where loud pipes are beneficial (the 580 in rush hour traffic) and places where they might affect other user groups drawn to a limited resource (the Valley).
Is this going to flame out as a taco topic, resulting in animosity between bikers and climbers or is there a possibility that something might come of this?
Do bird watchers, fishers, hikers, green dragon riders, picnic families and park service employees have the same view that loud bikes compromise their park experience?
Is there a decibel limit on motorized vehicles in Yosemite? Are some motorcycles in violation of these limits? Is aural pollution on the park service radar?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 26, 2006 - 01:45am PT
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Naaaaah.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 26, 2006 - 06:39am PT
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still think guys with loud bikes got small dicks:)
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Dave Tapes
Trad climber
Silverado CA
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Jul 26, 2006 - 04:32pm PT
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Conrad-For every law that a motorcyclest breaks in the Valley, there are probably just as many if not more that climbers ignore. While I understand that somethings are annoying just consider the rules that you personaly might be willing to ingnore. Even the silly rules that if followed would distract from you own enjoyment and ability to do as you please in the Valley or any where else for that matter.
I'm all for ignoreing stupid rules in the pursuite of playing in the great outdoors, I also think that doing so requires a little tolorence for the other sports/activities.
While it's hard to equate a tourist riding the green dragon with climbing rocks in the tourist's mind he might be on the greatest adventure ever.
If your going to hang out in a enviroment with thousands of people coming and going then your just going too have to put up with it.
Focus on your own good time.
DW
ps. trad girl sounds like you know all about small dicks.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jul 26, 2006 - 04:44pm PT
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Dave Tapes sez:
"ps. trad girl sounds like you know all about small dicks."
Sounds to me like that "small dick" crack hit a little close to home.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 27, 2006 - 09:04am PT
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Word!!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 29, 2006 - 09:46pm PT
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I drove quite a lot in B.C., Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming and Utah over the last month. About 6,000 km. I saw and heard a lot of motorcycles during that time, both from my car and when on foot. Especially in Jackson - there were herds of them, en route to an event in the Dakotas.
There seems to be a correlation between motorcycles without mufflers, and riders without helmets, in places that don't require them. Very often, noisy motorcycle = no helmet, or at best a "hairnet" style helmet, which is more decoration than protection.
Perhaps there are statistics about this. Are the helmet-less more or less likely to get in accidents, whether self-inflicted or from outside causes? Certainly if they do get in accidents, the consequences are likely to be much worse. (As a one time bicycle racer, something I'm all too familiar with.)
This suggests that the riders of loud motorcycles aren't motivated by safety in having unmuffled engines, or at least that safety isn't the reason they choose to make noise.
Anders
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 10, 2007 - 09:39pm PT
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To revive a long-dormant thread. Australian women apparently have a way with loud motorcycles. They give the drivers the finger. To be precise, they waggle their little fingers at them.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 11, 2007 - 02:00am PT
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The only pattern I can deduce is a correlation between decibels and belt size. But, that might be splitting hairs as almost all the bikers I see up this way are obese...
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 11, 2007 - 02:15am PT
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Joseph, are you suggesting that these people are not only muffin tops, but hairy muffin tops?
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wiclimber
Trad climber
devil's lake, wi
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Jul 11, 2007 - 08:49am PT
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Loud pipes save lives.
We don't need more laws.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 11, 2007 - 10:58am PT
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Loud pipes scare and startle other drivers, make children in cars cry, and ruin the neighborhood peace and quiet. Ban them. They are not necessary, they disturb everyone, hurt our hearing, set-off car alarms etc. etc.
Absolutely true. Driving down the Avenue near our house, coming up to a light in my VW Vanagon Syncro with my children in safety seats in the back, and then all of a sudden the light went green, the motorcyle immediately behind guned-it changing lanes abruptly and the pipes were screaming as he passed us. It scared the sh#t out of me, and my children, and they started to cry. I don't think I have ever heard a motorcycle so loud before.
Then late at night, or early in the morning they love to destroy the quiet of the region as they come tearing down the city streets near our neighborhood. My God, you can hear them miles away!
They are a bunch of self-centered A-holes. They can set a law that limits dB levels and they should. Force them into compliance.
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Ω
climber
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Jul 11, 2007 - 11:01am PT
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LOUD Motorcycles SUCK! There is law that says you can not be over 82d but the rangers ignore it. A friend of mine got a really loud horn and now honks as he passes these loud obnoxious monsters to annoy them and drown them out. It is especially fun when they are parked on the side of the road and you give them back their own medicine. Lets start a trend and every one lay on the horn when you see these jerks.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 11, 2007 - 11:02am PT
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There's already laws. Enforce em
If somebody need to blast incredible noise out in the national parks to stay safe, there's a problem
Peace
karl
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 11, 2007 - 01:17pm PT
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Loud pipes suck!! One of the most selfish things you can do on a bike.. Save your own damn life. Ride agressivly, wear a helmet and leathers and be aware of your surroundings. your the one out there on the bike with no airbags or fenders arround you.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jul 11, 2007 - 01:43pm PT
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I might buy that "Loud pipes save lives" bullshit if the ass-hole on the loud bike was wearing CLOTHES THAT AREN'T BLACK!!!!!
Tough to make a case you're trying to be seen when you're dressed the same color as the Stealth Bomber.
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wiclimber
Trad climber
devil's lake, wi
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Jul 11, 2007 - 01:54pm PT
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Those loud pipes you hear saving lives?
It's called MILWAUKEE THUNDER!!
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Edward-Oh
climber
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Jul 11, 2007 - 02:20pm PT
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I know that you can get pulled over for having an exhaust that's too loud on the car. I would assume the same thing would go for bikes...I agree that it does ruin some of the tranquility!
http://www.grabyournuts.com
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 11, 2007 - 02:36pm PT
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wiclimber: "Those loud pipes you hear saving lives?"
Please provide objective evidence of same, e.g. NHTSA statistics or studies.
Better still, read through the thread - the claim that a noisy motorcycle is safer is thoroughly debunked.
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wiclimber
Trad climber
devil's lake, wi
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Jul 11, 2007 - 02:50pm PT
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Harley is one of my biggest clients. I would never bite their hand.
That said, I HATE that loud crap too, but there are laws in place already. Enforce those. Let's not make more.
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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Jul 11, 2007 - 04:18pm PT
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Loud pipes save lives.
Bullsh#t.
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5150
Trad climber
JOSHUA TREE
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Jul 11, 2007 - 05:21pm PT
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Loud pipes kick A$$. If any of you poor bastards could afford a Harley, you would'nt be talkin' $HIT. You'll hear me in the Valley next week. LIVIN' LOUD AS HELL!!!
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 11, 2007 - 05:24pm PT
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5150, f*#k you.
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5150
Trad climber
JOSHUA TREE
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Jul 11, 2007 - 05:31pm PT
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You don't want to F#K me Dirtbag, I would just lay there, sweat and laugh at you. F#K YOU.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jul 11, 2007 - 05:42pm PT
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See, it's not about *safety* at all.
It's about bad attitude and being a dumbsh#t.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 18, 2008 - 07:21pm PT
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Annual bump. Not that the discussion is likely to be advanced.
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apogee
climber
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Jun 18, 2008 - 07:50pm PT
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Loud bikes suck. Those who ride them and rationalize their noise with statements such as 'loud pipes save lives' are self-oriented and deluded.
In doing some quick searching of various motorcycle associations, many of them have position statements on the issue of exhaust and noise, and there is a distinct pattern of defensiveness- the Amer. Motor. Assoc. has apparently spent quite a bit of $ defending various challenges to noise regulations.
The most informed, articulate motorcyclists acknowledge that there is no proof at all of the 'loud pipes' defense. For those who espouse it, it is a shallow, self-serving manifestation of their own fragile egos.
Idyllwild has seen a huge increase in these hordes in recent years, encouraged by a few restaurants (especially JoAnn's, in the center of town) and businesses that are starving for a buck. Those businesses generally have poor reputations in the local community, &/or are starving for business. (If you visit Idyllwild, don't patronize these businesses, please.)
The noise rumbles all the way up to crags, and shatters one of the most desirable elements of the mountain experience- quiet- for hundreds of visitors and residents. All because of a few people's need to attract attention to themselves. I regard them with complete disdain.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Jun 18, 2008 - 10:40pm PT
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Worse than a Jet Ski?
You know what is funny, Dennis Hopper talks about the filming of Easy Rider, and how stupid it would be to ride a chopper cross country in real life, because it is the worst possible choice of a custom motorcycle, and sure enough, right after the movie comes out, you see idiots with choppers and sleeping bags.
Give me one of those Honda Goldwings, with the stereo from hell.
I use to follow a guy on my bike every morning, as far as I could because he always cranked the killer tunes on his motorcycle, hear it for miles, 5:30 in the morning, neighbors loved it.
You see the same damn people every day on a bicycle commute.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Jun 18, 2008 - 11:30pm PT
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If you think that being heard on a motorcycle does not help provide
notice of your presence especially while on a freeway while splitting lanes has obviously never ridden a bike, at least not in traffic.
Most of your arguments are based on BS.
Like claiming wearing black makes you harder to see?
Are black cars harder to see?
I don't agree with excessively loud pipes but to say there is no benefit is ridiculous and obviously not based on riding experience.
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Pain
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Jun 18, 2008 - 11:34pm PT
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Stupid Harleyfags anyway...
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Double D
climber
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Jun 18, 2008 - 11:51pm PT
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Gotta admit, this is one of my pet peeves. I can't see how the noise on hogs is legal but no other vehicles.
Their lobby group must be as powerful as the ACLU or NRA. I'm so gratefull that I don't have neighbors with Harley's any more!
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apogee
climber
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Jun 19, 2008 - 12:05am PT
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Shack-
FWIW, here's some quotes from the website of an avid motorcyclist (a personal injury lawyer who represents the motorcycle community), regarding the myth of 'loud pipes save lives':
"These statements seem to presuppose several assumptions that; 1) the other driver is not only going to hear the biker, but take the time to identify their actual location, 2) drivers in general rely on sound as much as vision to locate and avoid obstacles (in this case the motorcyclist), 3) the other driver gives enough of a damn about motorcyclists in the first place to do (1) and (2) above, and 4) that sounds emanating from a motorcycle's exhaust travel equally in all directions from the source."
"According to the Hurt report is was determined that 77% of motorcycle accident hazards come from in front of the rider, while only 3% approach from the rear. What's interesting here is that motorcycle pipes direct the vast majority of sound backwards where the least danger is, so for loud pipes to be truly effective safety measures they would need to be pointed forward where the greatest danger lies."
"As Neal Stephenson puts it in 'Zodiac' (The words in brackets [ ] were added by me.):
" First, a word on motorcycle safety:
If you've put yourself in a position where someone has to see [hear] you in order for you to be safe -- to see [hear] you, and to give a f**k -- you've already blown it."
Complete article:
http://www.virginiawind.com/byways/loud_pipes_save_lives.asp
An anecdotal article, to be sure, but interesting to see it posted within the context of the motorcyclist community.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Jun 19, 2008 - 12:20am PT
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Some pretty stupid statements in that...
Here is the most common scenario. If you have ever driven a car in heavy traffic, I'm sure you have had this happen to you.
How many of you have been in heavy traffic, creeping along, stop and go style,
and you hear a motorcycle approach as is splits the lanes and passes you....or maybe you are even startled by the sound as you are numbly driving along?
How many have almost started to change lanes only to hear a motor cycle approaching and checked your mirrors again before changing lanes?
Get the idea?
As a motor cycle rider, if you want to stay alive, you learn to look at other drivers eyes to see if they see you.
If you are behind them, you look in their mirrors at their heads etc, and when you are splitting lanes, you want to make sure the drivers are aware that you are there, and they usually don't know you are there until they hear you.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Jun 19, 2008 - 12:26am PT
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I CAN'T STAND THESE THINGS.
EXTRA WHIMPY, LITTLE MEN RIDE THEM INTO THE VALLEY AND POLLUTE THE ENTIRE FOREST.
IT'S JUST AS BAD AS ALL THE WHINY-BEGGOES TRYING TO GET ACROSS THE BRIDGE ON 140.
REPULSIVE.
DISRESPECTFUL.
AND ALL FOR WHAT? CAN ANYBODY TELL ME? IS IT THE SENSE OF FREEDOM? HOW ABOUT FREEING ME FROM YOUR NOISE?
...sorry for screaming, but i had to try to be heard... i really can't stand them.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 19, 2008 - 12:29am PT
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Is lane splitting on a motorcycle legal? Is it considered a wise or even safe thing to do?
What percentage of their time do motorcycles use in lane splitting? I suspect much less than 5%.
If a motorcycle is adjusted/equipped so as to comply with legal noise limitations, how would that change things?
Do motorcycles have horns that they can use to warn people they're overtaking, or who may be doing something that threatens them?
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apogee
climber
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Jun 19, 2008 - 12:37am PT
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Shack-
If you ride a bike, you would know more than I do (I stay away from donor-cycles). I can only speak to my experience as a car driver, and honestly, I only become aware of loud pipes at the last moment, as they are directly alongside me (often startling the s**t out of me). If the noise is supposed to somehow make me more aware of them, and change my driving behavior accordingly, I can't say that this actually happens. Once they are in front of me, there isn't much of anything I could do as a driver to put them at risk.
What I can say, without a f*#cking doubt, is that I am sick of them riding up in mass, with their after-market exhaust systems, shattering the calm and quiet of my favorite outdoor areas.
Aside from that article, I found many other position statements from various cycling constituencies that makes it clear that it is an issue that the cycling community is fighting. Kind of reminds me of gun rights and the NRA. (But that's another thread.)
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Jun 19, 2008 - 12:50am PT
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I'll add Mt. Starr King as a place you can hear the loud bikes going/coming to Glacier Point.
Can you imagine the entrance station rangers with a hand held sound
meter checking the big bikes and turning back the noisy ones!
...yes rev your engine Sir! ... just a little check...
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s. o.
Trad climber
academia
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Jun 19, 2008 - 01:25am PT
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loud pipes are the same argument as lycra, painter's pants, and carharts.
5% performance 95% image.
It is interesting to hear all the hate. It reminds me of reading about climbing closures at the city of rocks of fear that climbers will "impair the historic viewshed"
Just people bitching about something they don't participate in so they don't care about banning it.
(yes, I ride with aftermarket pipes)
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Beak
Trad climber
Poway
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Jun 19, 2008 - 01:35am PT
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Mighty Hiker,
Lane splitting is legal in California up to 30 miles per hour. I have been riding a 1000cc sport bike (crotch rocket) for several years. I reluctantly split lanes in stop and go conditions on the freeway. Motorcycle engines heat up rapidly if they are not moving. If it is over 80 degrees and you are just sitting there in traffic things get very uncomfortable as the hot air from the engine well up around you.
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Jun 19, 2008 - 02:14am PT
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Eric, I was going to respond to your Noise thread but could not find it. If I were to take on that problem I would offer free hearing tests to all the riders at the gate and go from there.
Ken
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jun 19, 2008 - 02:29am PT
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Rice, caribou and SuperTopo for late supper again tonight. Plumbing project from hell still not finished.
1. Intrusive noise is not appreciated by those not making it.
2. Internet forums assist in the distribution of such useful knowledge to slow learners. Humans are slow learners.
3. Young people and those not having asked many questions of their actions will defend what they will later learn was an error, such as the error of making intrusive noise.
So if you are among the motorcycle crowd (on my list of things to do), or other noise making crowd, consider the interesting alternative of reducing your noise to the lowest technologically achievable level, as a fun project, to evaluate the results. You will enjoy them, as you would otherwise learn after making the noise mistake longer. You will also have more friends among more intelligent people who therefore can benefit you more.
An interesting comparison: Guns make loud, ear damaging, irritating noise. Most shooters have belatedly learned the damage of gun noise, and mitigate it with ear protectors. The more logical and desired solution for the shooter and others in the area, is easily made silencers, which the more intelligent government in Finland encourages among its citizens.
But the idiot, malicious DemocanRepublicrat Regime has made gun silencers generally unlawful, for fear of terrorists behind every Bush, and other illusions. Many Americans have high frequency noise induced hearing loss, a detriment.
Humans are slow learners, especially the Americans. In the future gun silencers will be on every gun, engines will be quiet without power loss, and our era will be the Homer Simpson joke.
Or something like that.
Doug
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jun 19, 2008 - 08:17am PT
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Yes, that is why I suggested the alternative. The suggestion is adequate. None of them will read this suggestion, but there are things afoot in the universe that made my suggestion worthwhile.
Doug
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 19, 2008 - 09:13am PT
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A friend of mine said that on trips to Africa he has seen silencers for sale right in the airport!
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Wack
climber
Dazevue
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Jun 19, 2008 - 10:40am PT
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In "The Vertical World of Yosemite" an article muses about how climbers resented the "hippies" because they were displaced as the lowest life form in the Valley. The sweat stained, unshaved, smelly climber taking up space on the shuttle becomes less loathed as the Harleys rumble by. Most of these beer swilling Bikers resent the State mandating that they wear helmets even though it's for their own good. Many shun wearing protective body armour, instead opting for gloves with no fingers and matching chaps with no bun protection. While you are enjoying this irony, consider free soloing on a sunny day, clad only in shorts, a chalk bag and sticky shoes, your only protection a mental belay provided by your judgment and skill.
To the general public who is the true Outlaw, the Biker with the thundering roar drowning out the garbage trucks and touron buses that is eventually replaced by serenity or the Climber who defaces a National treasure by placing bolts, scrubbing lichen and chalking holds? To the Public all risk takers and alternative lifestyle individuals are scum, meant to be tooled. Consider riding to the Valley, reducing your carbon foot print by getting 40 miles per gallon, paying $10.00 instead of $20.00 entrance fee and fitting 4 bikes into 1 parking space all while doubling your scorn factor
"Live to Ride, Ride to Climb" or live and let live.
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apogee
climber
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Jun 19, 2008 - 01:09pm PT
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When one person's actions or interests have a significant impact on the experience or lives of another, the line is crossed. If you remove the highly subjective element of ethics, loud pipes share this basic reality.
The choice to solo or ride a bike helmetless would seem to be individual choices, and they should be, as long as the individual has the ability to take full financial responsibility if their actions don't work out. (Let alone the emotional trauma that the friends and family get to deal with for a lifetime invalid.)
Loud pipes, tour busses, garbage trucks- all of them impact other peoples experiences, and in my ideal world, none would exist. The difference is that garbage trucks and tour busses serve the needs of a lot of people, and loud pipes serve the needs of the individual.
Live and let live- I wholeheartedly agree. Respect and awareness of others is a part of this credo, too.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Jun 19, 2008 - 02:40pm PT
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We need a "cut and paste" of John Muir riding a Harley through the park.
Bass Lake was put here for bikers, Yosemite is for climbers only.
Besides, no Port-O-San to set on fire inside the park, so WTF, over?
If you timed it right, a well trundeled boulder from the face of the Captain might make it to N.Park Drive just in time to wipe out a herd of clip on pony tail fake biker types, please consider collateral damage.
Harley's are like as#@&%es, everybody has one.
Now put me on a Bonneville or a 441 Victor, and we can talk.
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Wheatus
Social climber
CA
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Jun 19, 2008 - 04:30pm PT
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In my neighborhood the Harley's shake the windows of my house as they pass by.
I remember sleeping up on Leaning Tower and being awakened out of a not so sound sleep by the loud obnoxious burp of Harley exhaust systems.
I know that if your car was as loud as some Harley's the police would give you a fix-it ticket. I got one in the 70's when my exhaust manifold cracked.
Is there anyone in law enforcement out in ST land that knows why Harley's are exempt from noise pollution?
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jun 19, 2008 - 04:46pm PT
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Wack..... Well stated.
But the noise itself, regardless of its source, is worth considering in technical terms, that which advances society.
Total noise also creates individual/social stress. An armed and less noisy society is a pleasant society.
Airboats and airplanes make the same noise from the same type engine and prop. The many small airplanes in Alaska do not create complaints because they leave the area quickly, reducing the noise time ratio, and mitigating the noise by distance.
Airboats and their operators are held in abject contempt because they move much slower, keeping the loud noise around longer.
If total social stress effects a postal type road rage fad against noisy bikers, among countless human reactions to stress, the message may become more effective. Word of mouth is more pleasant.
Doug
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samg
Trad climber
SLC
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Jun 19, 2008 - 04:57pm PT
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What's interesting here is that motorcycle pipes direct the vast majority of sound backwards where the least danger is, so for loud pipes to be truly effective safety measures they would need to be pointed forward where the greatest danger lies.
Incorrect.
Low frequency sound waves are omnidirectional.
This means that it doesn't matter where the pipe is pointed.
It is physically impossible to locate the direction that a low frequency sound is coming from, meaning that you cannot know whether the loud bike is behind or in front of you. Humans cannot distinguish directionality with low frequencies. If you think you can tell where a low frequency noise is coming from, it is because its resonances are creating harmonics in the upper frequencies from which you can distinguish direction (although that can be deceiving as the sound source and the source of the resonances may be in different locations).
Soundproofing in automobiles will filter out the higher frequencies that could clue you into where the sound is coming from. This is due to simple laws of physics- there is not enough mass available in the soundproofing in most cars to filter out the low end, but it will filter out most of the highs and mids.
Also, whatever highs and mids your car won't filter out are going to be extremely diffuse unless the bike is right next to the car, making directionality almost impossible to determine because of that fact alone.
Worse, it is quite possible that loud low frequency waves could cause the interior of your car to resonate and create harmonics in the upper frequencies from within, making it seem as if the sound was coming from a direction that it is not coming from.
Meaning that yes, the idea that other drivers could know where a motorcycle is from the noise it makes is indeed pure, unadulterated bullsh#t.
You could argue with this until you are blue in the face, but that will not help you overcome the laws of physics.
-Sam
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 19, 2008 - 05:04pm PT
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I think Ouch is, as we speak, putting wheels on a sub-woofer.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Jun 19, 2008 - 08:14pm PT
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Let us not forget the whole notion behind motorcycles, I mean everybody has gotta have a sticht, right?
"Johnny, what are you rebelling against?"
Whatta ya got?
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samg
Trad climber
SLC
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Jun 24, 2008 - 10:25pm PT
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Does it matter that the car and bike are moving at highway speeds? I know it's a mere fraction of the speed of sound, but what about the wind? Will a bike 30 feet in front of the car's driver be more audible than a bike 30 feet behind at 60 mph?
No, it doesn't matter. I could calculate it but it's probably a few milliseconds of difference or most likely, less.
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drgonzo
Trad climber
east bay, CA
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Jun 25, 2008 - 12:31am PT
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davidji
Social climber
CA
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Jun 25, 2008 - 01:34am PT
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Wheatus wrote:
"Is there anyone in law enforcement out in ST land that knows why Harley's are exempt from noise pollution?"
Maybe jody or fattrad will give a better answer, but here's what I understand.
Of course there are times cops will strictly enforce the laws for motorcycles, and sometimes even harass them.
But in general cagers are softer targets for the cops. A respectable looking person in a car is perceived as more likely to actually pull over, less likely to ride off after initially stopping, and less likely to assault the cop.
Back to the topic. I expect we have enough laws on this stuff. Probably way too many. But I'd be happy if the noise laws were enforced more.
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Debris Magnet
Mountain climber
San Jose, CA
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Aug 29, 2008 - 04:31pm PT
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First let me preface with the fact that I joined this forum to respond specifically to this thread, but after looking around, I think I'll start coming here more often ;)
I found this thread thanks to one of the fellow members of BARF (http://www.bayarearidersforum.com);. Our own discussion of this is going on here: http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263227.
Being a motorcyclist and an avid hiker and amateur climber, I'm in complete agreement with the majority of everyone in that motorcycles with loud pipes are nothing but a detriment to mine and others enjoyment of parks such as Yosemite.
Some motorcycles are inherently louder than others from the factory, the primary difference being that a v-twin configuration is noticeably louder than a 4-cyl configuration, for several reasons that are beyond the scope of this discussion.
That being said, there is absolutely no reason that any motorcycle with a factory exhaust cannot be ridden reasonably quietly. I have a 2001 Aprilia RSV Mille R, which is a v-twin italian sports bike, and by design, its definitely louder than, for example, my friends 2006 Kawasaki ZX-6R (4cyl bike). That doesn't mean I can't ride it quietly, and not disturb the experience of others in a park, or disturb my neighbors when I come home late at night or leave early.
Its my opinion that the majority of riders who have straight (un-muffled) pipes are weekend riders who will soon either get rid of their bikes due to a wreck or lack of interest, or will convert their bikes back to a quieter system after they realize the fallacy of straight pipes for non-performance reasons. I don't have any empirical data to back this statement up, just several years worth of observation.
In closing, you'll find the majority of responsible riders will agree with this community that loud pipes don't serve any purpose aside from irritation in parks and other similar areas. None of us want a rider (harley or sportsbike) gunning their engines loudly at 3AM or disturbing an ascent any more than everyone here does.
Regards,
Mike
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
up Yonder (someplace else)
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Aug 29, 2008 - 05:34pm PT
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Duh, Harleys are loud on purpose......
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Aug 29, 2008 - 06:38pm PT
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We're just as annoying (if not more) to the NPS (and the other park users) as the Harley guys.
We want to park our Subarus anywhere we want, make a racket at 1AM rolling into a campground after having some epic on Fairview, and turn Camp 4 into burning man (adding people to sites that aren't registered). And occasionally we get choppered off El Cap because some bumbly didn't want to haul rain gear. And we go marching all over with crash pads and leave chalk everywhere.
Seriously - we're just as much a pain in the ass.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Aug 29, 2008 - 06:50pm PT
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Not even T1, dude...
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Nibs
Trad climber
Humboldt, CA
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Aug 29, 2008 - 07:04pm PT
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Welcome to the forum Mike; good first post. I'll try to keep the drool off of the Aprilia...
I too ride a quiet bike (Ninja) and wish the NPS would enforce the noise ordinance on the Harleys.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Aug 29, 2008 - 07:06pm PT
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You know how to make an entrance, Debris, nice work!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 29, 2008 - 07:09pm PT
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So, Debris Magnet, are you interested in climbing? It sounds like you'd fit right in.
There's even a route in Yosemite called Cosmic Debris. Though it's pretty difficult, and might take you a while to work up to.
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Max2
Trad climber
CA
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Aug 29, 2008 - 07:09pm PT
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Dear citizens
Step forward and refuse to be bullied!
http://www.noisefree.org/howtofightnoisemanual.pdf
My parochial but essential experience:
I lived in quiet neighborhood in Connecticut, where neighbors frequently and easily held conversation on the street. Then, the town was "discovered" by an overwhelming number of loud motorcyclists, to the point to which most residents felt their most basic of freedoms -- the right to free speech in their own neighborhood -- had been essentially removed. The neighborhood protested against what was basically a lazy police department, until finally through an election, laws were followed and sanity returned. Loud motorcycles in that town are now rare.
It works, there are plenty of other examples, you just need to look about and stand-up for your rights.
If this helps: Regardless of my conservative party affiliation, political differences were easily nullified.
Regards,
Max2
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Aug 29, 2008 - 07:12pm PT
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Note: Debris said, "but after looking around I'll come back more often."
You'll love the tacos and tacoettes here..(even the ones you love to hate, hehe.) But you may have a problem getting sucked into the vortex....if you don't know what that means now, you will in a month or two. Smiles, Lynne
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east side underground
Trad climber
crowley ca
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Aug 29, 2008 - 07:26pm PT
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I was at the Bill Graham memorial show years back and after the show I was walking to my ride when a group of aprox. 100 bikers on REALLY LOUD bikes sat in a group and reved(S.p.?) I mean REEEVVVVEEED their motors. The noise was unbelieveable!!!
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Debris Magnet
Mountain climber
San Jose, CA
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Aug 29, 2008 - 07:52pm PT
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Note: Mighty Hiker said "So, Debris Magnet, are you interested in climbing? It sounds like you'd fit right in."
Definitely. I got interested in climbing when I was in the boy scouts, and branched out on my own to amateur caving. I've got a decent set of gear (static and dynamic ropes, couple different harnesses, various ascent, belay, anchor gear, and so forth. My wife and I just moved to San Jose from Atlanta. The southeast doesn't have a whole lot to offer for climbing, now that we're here I've got a great opportunity to watch and learn, and do and learn. I need to start bouldering again to get back in shape, rebuild the right habits, and generally learn what I don't (that being quite a lot right now).
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Aug 29, 2008 - 09:39pm PT
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Not this again, who keeps it as their personal agenda to keep bumping Dinosaur threads?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Aug 29, 2008 - 11:28pm PT
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Doc Rock, So there's new peeps and info...what's the prob ? Just a wondering. What the heck do I know...newbie here. Lynnie
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
up Yonder (someplace else)
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Aug 29, 2008 - 11:34pm PT
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Some cool rocks near ol' Atlanta, there Debris....
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 29, 2008 - 11:41pm PT
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Debris, you may want to come to the Yosemite FaceLift, on September 24th - 28th. A big volunteer thing, cleaning up the park, but also a lot of fun, and even some climbing. Many SuperTopians are there (50+ last year), and camp and festivate together.
Some general information about it is on the Yosemite Climbing Association website at http://yosemiteclimbing.org/index.html, though it may not have been updated recently.
Or simply search on SuperTopo, under "FaceLift". Lots to see. The most recent of many threads is at http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=654978
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Aug 30, 2008 - 12:47am PT
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I was jus kiddin, see, when i post that, it is me givin the bump, which goes against my post, so it is kind of a joke, was it too deep or too stupid, probably a little of both, with a dash of crypticism thrown in for measure good, cuz i wanna talk like chief Krauk.
\
where is everybody, stuck in traffic?
some of my jokes really suck.
i took down the coffin joke from Taledega Nights, full props going out to me for a new low as far as being tasteless, sorry Ol Blue, do not trundle my ass off the cliff as i have no money for a rope yet,...
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The Alpine
Big Wall climber
Tampa, FL
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Aug 30, 2008 - 12:29pm PT
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" The southeast doesn't have a whole lot to offer for climbing.."
are you crazy mang!? The southeast has the quality (just no the height).
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jiimmy
Boulder climber
san diego
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Aug 31, 2008 - 10:04pm PT
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MOtorcycles kick butt!! Freedom to ride baby!! Yeah living life on the edge. COOL dude!!! Long live motos death to yuppie toyota trucks
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Aug 31, 2008 - 11:41pm PT
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Doc Rock, your reply was good for some serious laughs ! That was a great, rambling explanation,,,hehehe. Lynnie
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Tfish
Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
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Jun 16, 2011 - 01:17pm PT
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South Park said it best. FAGS!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 16, 2011 - 01:28pm PT
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Time to bump this one.
So we can move the Park Service to do something? Messing with those
Harleys is like messing with apple pie and Teabaggers. The Park Service
is too afraid they would have their budget cut.
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apogee
climber
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Jun 16, 2011 - 01:45pm PT
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Yep, it's "bikes in the mountains" season again. They've been in our mountain community for a few weeks now, with more noise impact (by far) than the rest of the touron hordes put together.
Selfish, noisy idjuts.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jun 16, 2011 - 01:48pm PT
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springs
climber
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Jun 16, 2011 - 02:06pm PT
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Last year, the National Park Service held at two-day motorcycle noise forum in response to thousands of complaints from park visitors about motorcycle noise pollution degrading their visiting experience. Last week, I heard from a NPS official who assured me that the NPS is working, although very slowly, on writing rules that will hopefully regulate loud bikes.
Although it's not a well-known law, there are EPA noise limits that apply to most motorcycles made after 1982. It's illegal to replace the EPA noise compliant exhaust with one that isn't compliant, or to tamper with the legal muffler to make more noise.
Maine Citizens For Quiet Motorvehicles has had some success in getting effective laws enacted to help curb loud bikes and will continue to work on this problem. We have a Facebook page with a lot of information about this issue.
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local
Social climber
eldorado springs
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Jun 16, 2011 - 02:10pm PT
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The key to keeping loud bikes at bay is to have rough dirt roads.
When a cruiser or sport bike rider gets to the end of the pavement on Eldorado Springs Drive and considers the potholes and dust on the road through town, they often turn around and head back out onto smooth pavement, where they're most comfortable. If they do decide to proceed through town, I suspect that they rarely come back a second time. It's just too rough a ride and too much grime on all that pretty chrome....
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apogee
climber
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Jun 16, 2011 - 02:16pm PT
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"Although it's not a well-known law, there are EPA noise limits that apply to most motorcycles made after 1982. It's illegal to replace the EPA noise compliant exhaust with one that isn't compliant, or to tamper with the legal muffler to make more noise."
That's very true, but the problem isn't one of the need for laws, it's about enforcement. LEO's are waaaaaaay overburdened and spread too thin to be able to effectively respond to violators. Further, they can only cite someone if they can catch the offender in the 'act', which would require a decibel meter. That kind of equipment is not at all common amongst LEO's, and without that kind of direct evidence, they can't do much.
Which means that the rest of society gets to live with the actions of a few selfish, thoughtless individuals.
LOUD PIPES DISRUPT LIVES!
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
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Jun 16, 2011 - 02:16pm PT
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Do any of you "ride" bikes? Seriously??? I altered my bike to be louder so people would not swerve into me. I swear when I had the original muffler I had so many near misses, it was insane! Once I made it louder, people actually saw me...
This might be annoying but heck... It kept me from being dead. I know it's annoying as hell even for the rider (I hate it loud) but dang, freakin bad drivers... If you get more people to watch out for motorcycles, 99% of us would happily with great joy return to a quieter muffler.
P.S. If you really want to be in a quiet zone, then go farther into the park. Yes, use those legs God gave you. Yosemite Valley is just a very small pathetic portion of Yosemite. Stop making it seam as if it's the whole dang place.
Anastasia Sherman
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apogee
climber
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Jun 16, 2011 - 02:24pm PT
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Anastasia, with all due respect, you are wrong.
There have been several noise-behavior studies that have been done on this question (mentioned waaaaay back in this thread), that debunk the concept that noise from a vehicle behind a car is significantly perceivable, or has any effect on the behavior of the driver of a car.
I trust that you believe that your noisy pipes are somehow making you safer, but in fact, it's your own defensive riding tactics that are most important.
For the record...my irritation with road motorcycles extends only to those who ride with after-market pipes, altered to maximize noise.
LOUD PIPES DISRUPT LIVES!
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
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Jun 16, 2011 - 02:29pm PT
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Apogee,
Nothing is like experience. You need try riding in LA. Use your defensive riding skills with and without loud pipes and then talk to me.
AFS
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apogee
climber
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Jun 16, 2011 - 02:34pm PT
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Anastasia, I commute in and out of LA regularly, and was born and raised on So Cal freeways.
Your personal experience, while valid, is anecdotal. (Regardless, I'm glad you've managed to stay safe on those hellish freeways.) I'm open to reviewing any kind of empirical data source (preferably not one subsidized by the motorcyle lobby) that demonstrates that 'loud pipes save lives'.
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neversummer
Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
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Jun 16, 2011 - 02:34pm PT
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Nothing is like experience. You need try riding in LA. Use your defensive riding skills with and without loud pipes and then talk to me.
True that...
bunch of noise Nazis....
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 16, 2011 - 02:40pm PT
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True that...
bunch of noise Nazis....
Yeah.
The Valley needs a pistol range.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jun 16, 2011 - 02:45pm PT
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I'm going to start a new business. Renting temporary muffler attachments at all national park gates. Maybe I will even design a throw away model. Like single use gun noise suppressors. It could be like bear boxes. You either bring your own, as in a quiet motorcycle, or you rent one at the gate.
And if you don't like riding a quiet bike because you don't think its safe, then don't ride one. I love motorcycles, but I hate the noise in the park.
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neversummer
Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
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Jun 16, 2011 - 03:01pm PT
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Yeah.
The Valley needs a pistol range.
only if .50 cal's are available for rental...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 16, 2011 - 03:02pm PT
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Laguna Beach had a cop who was on a mission for a couple of years to rein in those hogs.
He rolled with a decibel meter and was truly swelling the city's coffers.
Unfortunately, he was also swelling the complaint basket and I believe he
either got poop-canned or told to stand down.
Whatever happened to that hackneyed line of bs I've been smacked with:
"Justice is blind"? I think it must also be deaf.
If there are laws in place enforce them dammit!
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jun 16, 2011 - 03:24pm PT
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Laguna Beach was responding to complaints from residents that were tired of out of town Harley posers creating gratuitous noise. An ordinance was passed in 2005 and is still on the books (requiring compliance with State vehicle code noise standards).
Many of the noisy motorcycles do not comply with State law and as someone stated above, it is an enforcement resource issue.
Laguna Beach City Ord.
7.25.140 Motor vehicles.
The use of any motor vehicle in such a condition as to create excessive, impulsive or intrusive noises is prohibited. The discharge into the open air of the exhaust of any internal combustion engine, stationary or mounted on wheels, motorboat or motor vehicle, including motor cycle, whether or not discharged through a muffler or other similar device, that creates excessive, unusual, impulsive or intrusive noise is prohibited. Motor vehicles shall comply with the noise regulations of the California Vehicle Code, as amended. (Ord. 1448 § 1 (part), 2005).
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 16, 2011 - 03:37pm PT
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neversummer, I was being facetious.
Horse droppings never bothered me. Lets go back to the old days. No motors at all. Perhaps a carriage concession.
Only human and animal powered transport.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jun 16, 2011 - 03:44pm PT
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Anastasia, while I sympathize with your desire to stay safe, it doesn't seem to me that the loud Harley riders are any safer than the quieter sport bike riders.
And frequently the behavior of Harley riders disproves the idea that this is for safety. They rev their engines when stopped, just because they like being loud.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 16, 2011 - 03:52pm PT
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Yes Anastasis, I do ride bikes.
I ride a modern Honda with a very quiet motor, and I ride an old British bike with a somewhat loud exhaust.
So I understand what you are saying about being seen and heard on a motorcycle.
The problem really is the Harley owners though isn't it, along with some Jap bike squids?
They both pull the stock exhausts off and put on less restrictive aftermarkets.
And they don't do it for more horsepower, they do it mostly to be cool, to be seen
and heard not so much in a "safety" sort of way, but for the same reason the 20 year old in the car next to you has the rap music cranked way up, see ME, hear ME, I am COOL.
edit:+1 on SteveP's comment!
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Jun 16, 2011 - 03:55pm PT
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Standing on top of Starr King on a calm day we could here their ugly roar
from the Glacier Pt Rd. It went on and on then stopped for a half hour then repeated as the club was leaving. We had obviously not gone far enough from the road.
I'd be in favor of entrance kiosk folks being authorized to deny entry to loud bikes. A hand held sound level meter and the biker instructed to rev his engine to a cruising RPM. Simple. Fast. I'd think job satisfaction would go way up too.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Jun 16, 2011 - 03:55pm PT
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Dont get me started. I live near Reno, home of Street Vibrations end of Sept. It will be louder in all of the surrounding areas, including Yosemite and all of 395 while theyre here. At least they seem to behave better when not in Reno at the hub.
....all the while, its illegal for me to have an upgraded exhaust at a fraction of the dB levels on my WRX....and I dont free-rev my WRX
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Jun 16, 2011 - 04:03pm PT
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Metal's for pussies, I'm a steady stream of empty beer cans and powerslides. I get a wide berth.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Jun 16, 2011 - 04:07pm PT
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Loud pipes are ghey.
They do nothing to "protect" riders from other vehicles.
Anyone that thinks along these lines needs to give up bikes and get back in thier car, where they are "safe".
Car drivers (I'm sure as sh#t not going to call them motorcyclists) that ride a motorcycle and use the logic that "loud pipes save lives" only harm those of us that ride everyday.
Seriously.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Jun 16, 2011 - 04:19pm PT
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Apogee makes a good point: Selfish
But Anastasia makes a good point: Safety
I'm for stuff that helps humans become more considerate and intelligent. Less stupid. (whatever that might be)
People riding loud bikes, blasting music inside cars, have no clue about how to build a campfire and smoke-out the whole valley, loudmouth drunks that equate camping with anarchy. This is sh.i.t we gotta work on.
I love Harleys (but don't own one, yet). I'd like to get one with noise-off, noise-on switch.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Jun 16, 2011 - 04:35pm PT
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Me and Dad on his Harley. He like the quiet 'glaspacked' exhausts on his Harleys. I remember his bikes were all quiet and fast.
He'd ride L.A. to Dallas and back on a long weekend and make it to work Monday morning. Just to have dinner with his mom.
He was the real deal.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 16, 2011 - 04:36pm PT
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In terms of safety, by far the most strategy is probably for motorcyclists to drive very defensively, and wear bright colours and reflectors.
If there's an objective scientific or engineering study that suggests let alone shows that a motorcycle with a loud exhaust is in any way safer because it has a loud exhaust, no one has posted it here.
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apogee
climber
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Jun 16, 2011 - 04:48pm PT
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Loud pipes aren't a real safety issue
by Star-Tribune Editorial Board
Casper Wymoming Star Tribune - Online//
October 9, 2008
The Casper City Council unnecessarily backed down from its discussion of a proposed noise ordinance Tuesday night when motorcyclists showed up to protest.
Complaints about loud motorcycles from residents fed up with the noise prompted the proposal. But all it took for the council to table the issue was hearing local motorcyclists make the oft-repeated -- but bogus -- claim that "loud pipes save lives."
No, they don't. Loud pipes are a public nuisance, and the idea that they improve safety for bikers is a myth. Motorcycles don't come from the factory with loud pipes. They are altered by riders because they increase the noise.
One national study found that 77 percent of all motorcycle accident hazards come from in front of the motorcycle, while only 3 percent come from behind. But the after-market pipes direct the sound backwards, so the only time loud pipes draw attention to a motorcycle in traffic is when the bike is facing away from the motorist. How does that make the rider safer?
Pat Hahn of the Motorcycle Safety Center in Minnesota said, "In light of the negative effect that loud pipes have on motorcyclists' image, I simply can't buy the 'loud pipes save lives' argument. It's especially hollow coming from someone who disregards traffic laws, doesn't use a riding strategy, has never taken rider training, doesn't wear a helmet, or doesn't wear protective gear.
"Do all these things as a rule, because you're honestly trying to reduce your risks, and the argument might hold water ... The crux of it is that, until you've covered absolutely every other base, that worn-out battle cry is just a way to rationalize your flagrant self-indulgence."
In a policy statement, the American Motorcyclist Association says it believes that "few other factors contribute more to misunderstanding and prejudice against the motorcycling community than excessively noisy motorcycles." Some communities have chosen to ban motorcycles in certain areas because of the noise, which has led to another saying: "Loud pipes lose rights."
http://www.noisefree.org/newsroom/noise-display.php?id=164
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apogee
climber
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Jun 16, 2011 - 04:57pm PT
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Harley-Davidson Tries To Quiet Motorcycle Noise - Loud Pipes' Cost
From the February, 2009 issue of Motorcycle Cruiser
By Art Friedman
(Excerpts)
In a message entitled "Something We Never Want to Lose" on his company's website, Harley-Davidson Motor Company President and CEO Jim McCaslin tackles the issue of motorcycle noise and the increasing backlash motorcycling is experiencing as the result of loud pipes. Citing a four-fold increase in negative media coverage during the last decade, bans on motorcycles in some communities, attempts to curtail major motorcycle events, anti-tamper legislation, and other limitations of freedom for motorcyclists as the result of complaints about loud pipes...
This is the second stage of Harley-Davidson's campaign against loud exhaust pipes....
Industry concern over the problem of loud exhaust pipes is nothing new. The American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) has long warned riders that attitudes shaped by complaints about loud pipes frequently compromise the AMA's efforts to battle anti-motorcycling legislation and regulation.
Changing to an aftermarket exhaust system has become almost a knee-jerk reaction for many cruiser buyers. However, unless labeled as meeting federal and state standards, all of these exhaust systems are illegal and virtually all are illegally loud.
...And many who modify their bikes' exhaust systems simply want the noise, often for vanity's sake. Some motorcyclists profess to believe that "loud pipes save lives," although research tends to contradict that popular axiom. (Few of those who say they want exhaust noise for safety's sake use other means--such as brightly colored apparel--which have been proven effective.)
http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/newsandupdates/0602_crup_harley_davidson_motorcycle_noise/index.html
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 16, 2011 - 05:00pm PT
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The question is whether in fact the drivers actually hear, and respond in a way that makes the situation safer for everyone. Seems doubtful.
Again, in terms of risk management, there are far more effective (and less obnoxious) things that motorcycle riders can do.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Jun 16, 2011 - 05:28pm PT
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I just dont see what the problem is with good old paying attention (on both parts) and being mindful of blind spots, as in knowing when youre in one (on both parts). Lanesplitting still blows my mind, for all the crap thats not legal in CA, I just dont get it. Just because it legal doesnt mean traffic conditions still cant make it a bad idea. NV has legal brothels, hosts the one of the west coasts largest bike fests and lanesplitting isnt legal.
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apogee
climber
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Jun 16, 2011 - 06:08pm PT
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The Hurt Report
The Hurt Report was a motorcycle safety study conducted in the United States, initiated in 1976 and published in 1981.[1] The report is named after its primary author, Professor Harry Hurt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurt_Report
Noted motorcycle journalist David L. Hough described the Hurt Report "the most comprehensive motorcycle safety study of the 20th century."[2]
The "Hurt Study"
Summary
Motorcycle Accident Cause Factors and Identification of Countermeasures
http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-Safety/Hurt-study-summary.htm
(excerpt)
13. Conspicuity of the motorcycle is a critical factor in the multiple vehicle accidents, and accident involvement is significantly reduced by the use of motorcycle headlamps (on in daylight) and the wearing of high visibility yellow, orange or bright red jackets.
17. Conspicuity of the motorcycle is most critical for the frontal surfaces of the motorcycle and rider.
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apogee
climber
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Jun 16, 2011 - 06:11pm PT
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Motorcycle rider conspicuity and crash related injury: case-control study
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC387473/
Results Crash related injuries occurred mainly in urban zones with 50 km/h speed limit (66%), during the day (63%), and in fine weather (72%). After adjustment for potential confounders, drivers wearing any reflective or fluorescent clothing had a 37% lower risk (multivariate odds ratio 0.63, 95% confidence interval 0.42 to 0.94) than other drivers. Compared with wearing a black helmet, use of a white helmet was associated with a 24% lower risk (multivariate odds ratio 0.76, 0.57 to 0.99). Self reported light coloured helmet versus dark coloured helmet was associated with a 19% lower risk. Three quarters of motorcycle riders had their headlight turned on during the day, and this was associated with a 27% lower risk (multivariate odds ratio 0.73, 0.53 to 1.00). No association occurred between risk and the frontal colour of drivers' clothing or motorcycle. If these odds ratios are unconfounded, the population attributable risks are 33% for wearing no reflective or fluorescent clothing, 18% for a non-white helmet, 11% for a dark coloured helmet, and 7% for no daytime headlight operation.
Conclusions Low conspicuity may increase the risk of motorcycle crash related injury. Increasing the use of reflective or fluorescent clothing, white or light coloured helmets, and daytime headlights are simple, cheap interventions that could considerably reduce motorcycle crash related injury and death.
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apogee
climber
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Jun 16, 2011 - 06:15pm PT
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The Deadly Dozen: 12 Motorcycle Safety Myths and Misconceptions
Read more: http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/streetsurvival/dangerous_motorcycle_safety_myths/index.html#ixzz1PTk29NDx
Myth 2: Loud Pipes Save Lives
Yeah, there are a few situations—like where you are right next to a driver with his window down who is about the to change lanes—where full-time noise-makers might help a driver notice you, but all that noise directed rearward doesn't do much in the most common and much more dangerous conflict where a car turns in front of you. Maybe it's the fatigue caused by the noise, maybe it's the attitudes of riders who insist on making annoying noise, or perhaps loud bikes annoy enough drivers to make them aggressive. Whatever the reason, the research shows that bikes with modified exhaust systems crash more frequently than those with stock pipes. If you really want to save lives, turn to a loud jacket or a bright helmet color, which have been proven to do the job. Or install a louder horn. Otherwise, just shut up.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 16, 2011 - 06:20pm PT
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Maybe we should stop bagging on drivers of loud motorcycles, fun though it is, and despite the nuisance they cause in parks. The world needs organ donors, after all.
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
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Jun 16, 2011 - 06:31pm PT
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Well, there was a plan to create a parking lot outside the park and force people into using mass transportation to cut down on traffic, have less pollution, create safer travel conditions, and have more crowd control etc.
That would solve a whole lot of problems.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 16, 2011 - 06:33pm PT
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buses, light rail system?
what was in the plan?
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
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Jun 16, 2011 - 06:35pm PT
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They wanted to create a light rail system, heard of a bus proposal too. I wonder what ever happened to those ideas? I thought it was great. It would force people to carry less into the park, less trash, might even make the tourons buy more, etc. We climbers can do fine with carrying stuff in. We are at least good that way.
AFS
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apogee
climber
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Jun 16, 2011 - 06:41pm PT
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Honestly, I've been trying to find any kind of study that demonstrates specifically that loud pipes decrease accidents/injuries- can't find even one. On the flip side, there aren't any studies that demonstrate that loud pipes are not helpful, either.
That's kind of a weak argument in my book, which leaves the question open to endless anecdotes, but there are some who hold that view. The most definitive study on motorcycle safety was the 'Hurt Report', which was a number of years ago, and while it did conclude that conspicuity of the rider/bike was important, it didn't specifically examine the loudness of the bike.
I'll give you that (street) motorcycle riding is dicey due to the unpredictable nature of car drivers- no argument there. I just can't accept that my life (and hundreds of others) should be negatively impacted due to the risk management strategy that someone else chooses to mitigate the inherent risks of motorcycle riding.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Jun 16, 2011 - 07:02pm PT
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Just enforce the existing laws! Write tickets! If it costs money people will stop doing it.
Any noise level that causes you to raise your voice to be heard is doing damage to your ears and the people around you. Drive in a car at speed with the window down all the time? Yes, it is doing damage and is the reason many people have hearing loss in the left ear over time...
Bikes with loud pipes are seriously annoying.
Erik
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 16, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
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Yes Apogee, I remember the Hurt report when it first came out.
And I believe its statistics are as valid now as then.
The basic conclusions:
1) riding under the influence of either alcohol or drugs, big cause of death
2) riding without a valid motorcycle endorsement: ie riding with out proper instruction
3) the infamous left turning automobile across from a rider at an intersection
This is the single most dangerous situation for a motorcyclist to be involved with.
Rider about to cross an intersection and an oncoming car takes a left in front of him.
Because the car driver has the entire middle and right half of their car between them and the motorcycle, they feel very protected and "see" the motorcycle less well, and thus are emboldened to proceed making the left turn, too often then killing the oncoming rider.
I am very aware of this potential intersection situation on my bike!
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