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Tfish

Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
Oct 17, 2013 - 02:05am PT
I just checked again and everything got deleted from their instagrams. Even Joes pic of him on the route in Tahoe.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Oct 17, 2013 - 03:00am PT
I heard they cut the tree on the split pillar & made a single toothpick out of it.
Deekaid

climber
Oct 17, 2013 - 10:22am PT
I'd hate to see two strong climbers reputations ruined because we don't get the full story.

But it is ok to slander the reputation of a "weak" climber? Who gives a sh#t how hard they climb?
permastoke

Trad climber
Camp 4, California
Oct 17, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
Credit: permastoke
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Oct 17, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
Whoa!

Hard to think anybody would think that is kosher, least of which would be public climbing figures.

Maybe they had a subman do it to keep the heat off.

What area is this at?
billygoat

climber
Pees on beard to seek mates.
Oct 17, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
Deekaid, neither is ok in my book.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 17, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
Does anyone else see the irony in the comments in the above photo?
billygoat

climber
Pees on beard to seek mates.
Oct 17, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
If you're referring to the part where Dean Potter chimed in and then shared the photo on his account. Yes, yes I did. But I also think it's indicative of how far he's come since his own incident.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Oct 17, 2013 - 12:41pm PT
Wait,

Are you guys saying the arch is in the same ballpark as lopping a tree down for a photo shoot?

Dapper Dan

Trad climber
Menlo Park
Oct 17, 2013 - 12:41pm PT
Ironic because of his climbing Delicate Arch ?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 17, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
fixed junk on watkins? civil disobedience on DA? leaving trash. even a lot of trash, is far different than killing for a climb.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 17, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
Yes, ironic because of the Delicate Arch debacle.

While it probably didn't harm the rock, it was a public display of climbers behaving badly.

mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Oct 17, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
Lopping down a juniper is a crime in many areas.

Where is this climb located?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 17, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
I saw the same thing for what was at the time the hardest climb in Yosemite. I said, WFT, cutting down a tree for a climb?? I've also seen this up at Castle Rock in SC, by some "well respected" climbers.

It's interesting, we live in houses made out of wood, love beautiful instruments made from gorgeous wood, wooden ships, bars, chairs, on and on.



What's my point?




I don't know.
msiddens

Trad climber
Oct 17, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
Ugh hope this isn't true......
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Oct 17, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
Gear manufactures take note:

If this sh#t is for real, I will be paying attention to who sponsors the perpetrators.

Who am I? I'm an upper-middle-class weekend warrior with disposable income.

In other words, I'm your core market.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Oct 17, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
Urban Climbers
Sonic

Trad climber
Boulder, Co
Oct 17, 2013 - 01:32pm PT
+1 Kos ^^^^
neversummer

climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
Oct 17, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
Pathetic if true...
James

climber
My twin brother's laundry room
Oct 17, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
WHOA! This is almost as bad as the time that dude erased that chalk mark on the Columbia Boulder. HAHAHA!
phylp

Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
Oct 17, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
That photo is shocking. I too am interested in news about this. As facts become available, will someone please post?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 17, 2013 - 01:43pm PT
I blame it on the hip-hop tunes those boys be rocking.

I would never cut a pre-Comstock era tree.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 17, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
Always fascinated that bolting dead rock is debated, and chipping and gluing are ostracized, but cutting dead an ancient tree is ok for climbers.

If I remember correctly, one of those guys somewhat defended the chipping incident(s) in the Gunks.

I've never heard that cutting an ancient tree is okay for anyone. That sh#t will corrode your soul. You will become the walking dead, a plaything for agents of Satan like me to exploit.
FTOR

Sport climber
CA
Oct 17, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
anyone here ever climb in squamish? lots of climber initiated logging up there. impressive.
adrian korosec

climber
Tucson
Oct 17, 2013 - 01:55pm PT
I wonder how old that tree was.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Oct 17, 2013 - 01:55pm PT
The debate on "cleaning" at Squamish is not black and white.

But looking at the photo of the alleged felled tree in this thread is comparing chalk with cheese.

Squamish is stupid with trees where the place this juniper grew looks pretty devoid of them.

There are trees at Squamish , however, like this juniper which would set off a firestorm of controversy if cut. Ryan already mentioned one - the tree at the base of the Split Pillar.

Shame on these climbers if they actually did cut down the old juniper.
tornado

climber
lawrence kansas
Oct 17, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
What is sad is that they most likely had no idea how old the tree was. Total disconnect from nature.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 17, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
About a decade ago out at Malibu I cut down two dead, rotted out trees flushed up right against the base and lower face of Mt. Gorgeous, making it possible to climb what now have become a handful of the most popular route in the park. These tress were dead dead, like rotted inside and hollow. Quite a different thing than hacking down a 2,000 year old juniper or whatever it was. But the fact is I might be just as guilty as those guys. It's hard to argue that cutting down those trees is not a crime against Nature.

JL
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 17, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
These tress were dead dead, like rotted inside and hollow.

Most likely habitat trees for sentient beings.

Someone should go count the rings on that juniper. Was this in the Tahoe area?
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Oct 17, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
WHOA! This is almost as bad as the time that dude erased that chalk mark on the Columbia Boulder. HAHAHA!

LOL this comment made my day. Internet wanking at its best!

Gear manufactures take note:

If this sh#t is for real, I will be paying attention to who sponsors the perpetrators.

Who am I? I'm an upper-middle-class weekend warrior with disposable income.

In other words, I'm your core market.

More lulz. So you gonna stop getting all that BD gear if one of them is sponsored by them? :) Personally, I never gave a sh#t who is sponsored by which brand. If I need a product and it is a superior product, I buy it.

I blame it on the hip-hop tunes those boys be rocking.

That explains it all.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Oct 17, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
Gear manufactures take note:

If this sh#t is for real, I will be paying attention to who sponsors the perpetrators.

Who am I? I'm an upper-middle-class weekend warrior with disposable income.

In other words, I'm your core market.

Plus 1 for Largo too, for owning up to the possibility.

I have climbed gingerly through some branches over the years, but I have never cut down an old grandfather for a route.

F*#k that, is my educated response, after 50 years outdoors.

I'd like to see the alleged perps post up a response, like the Wings Of Steel men did.
Deekaid

climber
Oct 17, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
billy goat duly noted

really sucks...i don't like breaking brush while bushwhacking... kind of the Ron kauk theory ... I just cannot imagine the mentality the disconnect
Dapper Dan

Trad climber
Menlo Park
Oct 17, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
This conversation is in desperate need of facts and/or witnesses.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 17, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
Still no info of where this was, no details at all. What's the point of this thread again?
Dapper Dan

Trad climber
Menlo Park
Oct 17, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
"If he says it happened and nobody is denying it, what other "facts" or "witnesses" do you need? "

That's a scary statement , I wonder if others share the same opinion .
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Oct 17, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
Point is: logging singular old growth junipers out of the vertical realm to climb=BAD.

Logging old-growth pines in the forest to build a house=better.

Cleaning moss, scrub brush, and dirt out of cracks with a weedeater, bolting in general, and what color chalk to use=a bit of a rocky subject.
le_bruce

climber
Oakland, CA
Oct 17, 2013 - 02:54pm PT
K-Man:

I saw the same thing for what was at the time the hardest climb in Yosemite.

Which climb was that?
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Oct 17, 2013 - 02:59pm PT
Cleaning moss, scrub brush, and dirt out of cracks with a weedeater, bolting in general, and what color chalk to use=a bit of a rocky subject.

Gas powered leafblower works way better.
KP Ariza

climber
SCC
Oct 17, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
Machine Gun

Oak tree
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 17, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
If true; welcome to world of climbing without sponsors!
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Oct 17, 2013 - 03:20pm PT
That picture looks like it was taken in 1978.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Oct 17, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
Well, the accuser seems pretty specific about who he's naming. He could be guessing, but doesn't appear to be.

Nobody has showed up with any "truth" yet though...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 17, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
"So you gonna stop getting all that BD gear if one of them is sponsored by them?"

Stopped buying BD gear years ago. That shite is shyte...if BD sponsors such eco-terrorists, they've only reinforced my negative impression of BD. I'll be sure to tell my friends & clients, too.


"Personally, I never gave a sh#t who is sponsored by which brand. If I need a product and it is a superior product, I buy it."

True selfish Uh-merri-kin, shortsighted opportunism! WalMart, REI, BD...if it works for my interests, what me worry?
Deekaid

climber
Oct 17, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
burchy givin' vitaly the business?

totally agree apogee... if and when I buy new cams it definitely won't be Black Diamond
although I do run some older ones now

edit : my "boycott" of Black Diamond has nothing to do with this incident
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 17, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
I will look forward to hearing FACTS about what happened and IF Joe and Ethan were involved. If they are involved, then +1000 Kos. And, FWIW, I too am a part of the core market for climbing gear.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Oct 17, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
easiest to pull on, I buy it.

Yes, so my weenie partner could pull through two moves in a 5.9 OW. Good try burchmeyster. Where is that TR about you aiding mithril?
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Oct 17, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
So you gonna stop getting all that BD gear if one of them is sponsored by them? :) Personally, I never gave a sh#t who is sponsored by which brand. If I need a product and it is a superior product, I buy it.

"Advertising doesn't affect me"

Yeah, right.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 17, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
Of course, Ken nails it. The FA protagonist denied the cut...
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 17, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
What is sad is that they most likely had no idea how old the tree was.

Thread Drift: I remember the story of the folks who cut down a bristle cone to see how old those trees were.

"Whoa, that sucker sprouted way before JC walked!!!"

Later, when they figured out how to do core samples, they found the tree they cut was the oldest in the bunch...
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Oct 17, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
Been a while since you all went running off like lunatics on an internet lynching. The villagers with pitchforks are massing. I'm predicting at least 200 pages of internet climber butthurt including accusations that these dudes probably also shot the Ecuadorian climber in Ten Sleep and are closet Nazi's. Later we will learn that it was just another planned tree cut by the Feds, like the one in Yosemite where there were pages of butthurt on Supertopo over someone trimming a few branches off a trail, followed up a week later by an actual plan from the National Park Service to cut an estimated 1,000 trees.

Popcorn please.
KP Ariza

climber
SCC
Oct 17, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
^^ LOL^^
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 17, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
Hey Couchy, don't you have some anit-Obama vitriol to spew somewhere? No time for popcorn; you need to get busy making the world safe by exposing the evils of our black, commie, non-citizen president.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Oct 17, 2013 - 04:04pm PT
ncrockclimber said:
"Hey Couchy, don't you have some anit-Obama vitriol to spew somewhere? No time for popcorn; you need to get busy making the world safe by exposing the evils of our black, commie, non-citizen president."

What is this? Act like a 3rd grader day? Nice try, I'll play. Another toothless/witless mongoloid banjo player with no brains from NC heard from? :-)

The parade of holier than thou douchbags is ramping up, maybe 200-300 posts and multiple pages still to come of halo wearing people who have NEVER sinned, NEVER done wrong, NEVER made a mistake and all want to publicly make the point that they are so much better than someone else for a perceived wrong. Sad and pathetic are words that come to mind.

This thread will really, really showcase the qualities many internet savvy Americans have. Not the goods qualities of course:-)

How folks carrying on the internet lynching perceive themselves to be:



How most of us perceive them to be:



Carry on with the lynching noble souls so as to prove your value and worth!
Roxy

Trad climber
CA Central Coast
Oct 17, 2013 - 04:16pm PT
i hope there's an explanation!
i hope there's an explanation!
Credit: Roxy

briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
Oct 17, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
I'm surprised you're able to even type replies on here, how do you grab the webbing and type at the same time?

Wait, you just clip your PAS and hang, then type? Nice!
Hey Couchy, don't you have some anit-Obama vitriol to spew somewhere? No time for popcorn; you need to get busy making the world safe by exposing the evils of our black, commie, non-citizen president.
^^Another toothless/witless mongoloid banjo player with no brains from NC heard from....^^^ LOL

Credit: briham89

What were we talking about again??? Oh yeah.....wait. I can't remember now... Amazing how these threads drift so fast




Willoughby

Social climber
Truckee, CA
Oct 17, 2013 - 04:38pm PT
What were we talking about again???


Making fun of banjo players. I think. Of course, as a banjo player, I'm not sure if I should be offended or not. Probably?
briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
Oct 17, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
lol!
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Oct 17, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
Wait, you just clip your PAS and hang, then type? Nice!

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 17, 2013 - 04:50pm PT
One of the accused has denied via email. the other aint talking'.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Oct 17, 2013 - 05:06pm PT
If a tree falls off a cliff & nobody is around except 2 sponsored climbers, did they really cut it down? Or something like that.


I'm never buying a BD cam again!!


Oh what's that??

Oh really? These guys don't even own cams? Uhhhhh ok.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 17, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
I can't stand banjo players.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Oct 17, 2013 - 05:10pm PT
Yeah wtf is it? A guitar? Or a ukulele?
MMCC

climber
New Zealand
Oct 17, 2013 - 05:16pm PT
^It's neither, just like sport climbing
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 17, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
It is it's own freakishly sized instrument.

I don't trust them.
altieboo

Sport climber
Das Blase
Oct 17, 2013 - 05:34pm PT
What is funny is that now everyone is rappin' about how they wont buy BD cams anymore. Non of these dudes are even sponsored by BD.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Oct 17, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
I find there are better brands than Black&decker but sometimes that's all I can find.
chill

climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
Oct 17, 2013 - 05:41pm PT
In protest of this outrage I will never use Forrest T nuts again!
bergbryce

Mountain climber
California
Oct 17, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
What brand saw did they use? I hope it wasn't a Sven saw, I'd hate to give that up.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Oct 17, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
After hearing this news I'll never eat subway again!
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Oct 17, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
Now thats nuts.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 17, 2013 - 05:50pm PT
F*#k Subway!

Jared can kiss my ass!!!
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Oct 17, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
Well all the subs do taste exactly the same until u put hot sauce on them, then they all taste like hot sauce!


See ya later guys I'm off to collect some firewood, winter is on the way!
Oplopanax

Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
Oct 17, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
Looking forwards to the upcoming video.

ELEMENTS OF CLIMBING: Tree removal.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 17, 2013 - 06:13pm PT
Yous guys don't know from cuttin' trees for photo ops. Go ask Uncle Fred
about those two foot thick ones at Castle Rock. How many were there, five?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 17, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
Sterling is good cord.
jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Oct 17, 2013 - 06:18pm PT
Maybe their newest sponsor is Stihl?
Willoughby

Social climber
Truckee, CA
Oct 17, 2013 - 06:23pm PT
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Oct 17, 2013 - 06:23pm PT
Oh sh#t we can't buy Mountain Hardwear, La Sportiva, Petzl, Patagonia, Metolious, BD, Grievel, Sterling, Marmot, Patagonia, Cilogear, or attend any of the Ironworks gyms. More time for internet wanking :)

jonnyrig

Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
Oct 17, 2013 - 06:26pm PT
How come one of you uber-green guys hasnt tried to graft it back together yet? Huh? I mean, jeez...
klk

Trad climber
cali
Oct 17, 2013 - 06:27pm PT
do we know that this actually happened?

and if so, what is "this," exactly?

and what happened to brandon to turn him into an anti-banjo bigot?
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Oct 17, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
I have no idea what happened. I did send emails to both to ask....
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 17, 2013 - 06:32pm PT
Steve Martin.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 17, 2013 - 06:32pm PT
It appears to have dropped off social media, so everything's cool... nothing to see here, move along.
Deekaid

climber
Oct 17, 2013 - 06:33pm PT
what is the buzz on Spacebook and Tweeter?
Willoughby

Social climber
Truckee, CA
Oct 17, 2013 - 06:36pm PT
5.samadhi

climber
Oct 17, 2013 - 06:41pm PT
criminal!
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Oct 17, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
Real climbers don't need gear and ride free range gryffons to the crag.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Oct 17, 2013 - 06:51pm PT
Haha! Squeal like a pig.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 17, 2013 - 06:55pm PT
Busted.
moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Oct 17, 2013 - 07:12pm PT
I don't want to sound like a smart ass, but why cutting an old tree is worst than cutting a young tree???

We seem to be more outraged by the act of killing a baby than an old person after all.

Why is it different for the trees???

It is a bit tricky, I guess.

If given a choice, I would cut an old tree first, then a baby tree, and a mature tree last.

Killing people: 1) old, 2) mature, 3) babies (of course, if anybody doesn't agree with me, goes first!).

IT IS A JOKE Don't kill me! I am OLD, though!

;)
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 17, 2013 - 08:17pm PT

I find it hard to believe that someone actually did this. It's probably the rangers taking down an unsafe tree near a trail or something.


But; To chop down a 100,s of years old tree to establish a climb is disgusting. Who ever did it should be prosecuted, and if it took place in a park or wilderness they should be banned from the park.

clearly they were ignorant of what they did so I would suggest a 1000 hours of habitat restoration projects as punishment for the fools, who ever they are.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Oct 17, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
"...chop down a 100,s of years old tree to establish a climb..."



The way I read it, they cut down the tree because it was in the way of their photographs.

For some people, if you can't get that killer shot, there's no point of doing the climb. We have a name for these people.
MisterE

climber
Oct 17, 2013 - 08:45pm PT
OK, a bit more information:

Ethan Pringle posted this picture on his FB page

posted pic on EP FB
posted pic on EP FB
Credit: MisterE

Someone asked: "Is that the tree you cut down?"

His answer is still up on the post "Of course not."

but the question is gone.

Hmmm...
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Oct 17, 2013 - 08:48pm PT
That's a pretty fukkin cool tree.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Oct 17, 2013 - 09:39pm PT
WTF?
Whoever it was cut down the tree ought to be hung up by the thumbs for a week. Preferably by cams in that crack.

By the size of it, that was a Very Old Tree. Where did this travesty take place?

And.......fergawd's sake, the "before" photo is much more interesting BECAUSE of the tree.

What stoopid bastids.....whomever they were.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 17, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
Speaking of lame

http://deadspin.com/jackasses-topple-200-million-year-old-rock-formation-1447403778
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 17, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
Climbing has changed, as it should....everything changes. The environmental element has less sway, athleticisim and Red Bull type promotion prevail. Just the way it is....i can embrace change (some of it) and have some nostalgia for what was.....but who cares?
bergbryce

Mountain climber
California
Oct 17, 2013 - 09:47pm PT
that tree provides half the quality of the shot. where did these photo geniuses learn wilderness photography??
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Oct 17, 2013 - 09:50pm PT
Did he really cut down THAT tree? I am suspicious that anyone would ever admit that. Surly this guy is being set up.

JL
NinjaChimp

climber
someplace in-between
Oct 17, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
No geniuses, "THAT" tree is still there. Please read the preceding posts before vomiting on your keyboard.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Oct 17, 2013 - 09:55pm PT
Someone asked: "Is that the tree you cut down?"

His answer is still up on the post "Of course not."

the sawed piece in the other photo would be at best a big branch off that big tree. one possibility is that it was a smaller one in the area.

we still need a lot more context.

and folks need to read the captions.
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Oct 17, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
Whatever has happened, Joe Kinder is such a poseur as it is . . . a little fluff boy. Peuf.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 17, 2013 - 09:58pm PT
Having read Ethan's post about Ivan's chipping, Ethan doesn't seem too concerned about even trying to preserve the natural state of things while pursuing sick rad new proj's.

One thing I’d like to talk about really quickly is the whole Ivan Greene chipping scandal. I know nobody likes a chipper. If it’s true that Ivan chipped a local NY climbers dream proj right after he finally unlocked the sequence after a decade of tries, that is totally lame. BUT, I don’t know the whole story, and probably very few people do. Chipping has been going on for decades. It’s a huge part of our sports history, and even though everyone seems all enlightened now, people still do it, and chances are people will keep doing it somewhere as long as the sport is going on. Blah Blah Blah. Does everyone who is crucifying Ivan online right now know that some of the most famous and iconic climbs in the world are chipped, glued or otherwise manufactured in some way? Do people know that lots of other athletes in our sport, some of them under the radar, some of them higher profile than Ivan, have made holds and gotten away with it? It’s unclear to me what he’s actually doing in the video… at first it looks like he’s digging out a hold, but then it looks like he decides to just rip it off. From the pictures at the end of the video it appears that he dug out a few of the holds on the wall. Well yeah, it’s definitely bad, and now Ivan is taking the brunt of the climbing community’s collective angst, and people are acting like he just killed an innocent child or something. What am I trying to say here? Well, **I guess what I’m trying to say is, lets go easy on the guy. He f*#ked up, he got caught, maybe NY’s first V15 got ruined… but life goes on… although when I think about it that way, maybe I wouldn’t say all this if it was my project! Ha, I dunno! I might be really pissed if it was an amazing line!**
rnevius

Trad climber
The Range of Light
Oct 17, 2013 - 10:01pm PT
Correct me if I'm wrong...but that sawed "tree" doesn't look at all like a Juniper. I'll go with "branch" as was suggested above.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 17, 2013 - 10:01pm PT
If you're top drawer....Caldwell, Sharma, Honnold etc., posing not required.

Second drawer....get your teeth whitened.
rnevius

Trad climber
The Range of Light
Oct 17, 2013 - 10:02pm PT
Great...now I'm speculating. That's what I get for reading all of the posts in this thread.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Oct 17, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
That's not "a tree" in that photo, it's a branch.

I've been doing tree work for decades, and that's a branch, and maybe less than 6 inches thick at that. That doesn't mean somebody didn't cut the whole tree down, but...

Trimming trees doesn't hurt them if the trimming isn't excessive. It's worse for the health of the tree to break branches off than to make clean cuts like the one visible in the photo.



GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 17, 2013 - 10:16pm PT
Lets have an occupy Joe and Ethan's house protest! Ill bring the pitch forks and lap drum!
Russ Walling

Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
Oct 17, 2013 - 10:39pm PT
That tree was totally f*#king up the radness:
Before:
Credit: Russ Walling



After:


Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Oct 17, 2013 - 10:43pm PT
Bolts five feet apart and he's effectively on toprope.

Where's the sac?
Oplopanax

Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
Oct 17, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
And what's up with that pink harness? What is this, 1989?
klk

Trad climber
cali
Oct 17, 2013 - 11:04pm PT
pringle's got stacks of mega-hiballs behind him. and more recently, death choss with libecki. i'm still waiting for more context b4 i jump on the "skinny guys who climb 5.14 are lite" bus,

and i think everyone wants brandon and couchmster to post pix from their canoe trip.

Dick Erb

climber
June Lake, CA
Oct 17, 2013 - 11:08pm PT
The upper photo posted by Walling is obviously altered with fuzzy connections for the two longest branches.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Oct 17, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
Oplopanax
And what's up with that pink harness? What is this, 1989?

My pink Petzl Jump harness from 1989 resents that remark.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 17, 2013 - 11:59pm PT
WHO F*#KING CARES ?



ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 18, 2013 - 12:09am PT
Would someone please answer some questions for me. why would they cut down the tree? where is this extreme gardening supposed to have taken place? Is there anyone other than the one dude on FB saying that joe and ethan did this? details? anything more than conjecture? Bueller?
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 18, 2013 - 12:18am PT
I agree it looks like a large branch.

Still no actual details about this story though.

Branch? Tree? Whatever... cutting it was idiotic.




NOT OK in my book.




...nobody reads my book...

Meh
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 18, 2013 - 12:27am PT
what book?
TheTye

Trad climber
Sacramento CA
Oct 18, 2013 - 01:45am PT
"This is soooo bad" says the person in a house of wood who likely drives a fossil fuel burning car typing on a phone or computer filled with rare earth minerals extracted through harmful mining practices while eating a cheeseburger made from an unsustainabley farmed, tortured animal....

Maybe we should just start with "hm, maybe they shouldn't have done that" before going into straight up angry witch hunt mob mode
MisterE

climber
Oct 18, 2013 - 01:53am PT
This is a good lesson, one that we as a supposedly/previously "iconoclastic" community need to address.

We are on the public radar, and we are representatives of our community ALL THE TIME.

There is no "new Golden Age" or "new Stonemasters Age" - this is us as a user group representing each and every one of our contingency by our actions.

What is the next "Age" as climbers will resound throughout the future years - please remember that and be a considerate representative of the community that you hold so dear.

Deekaid

climber
Oct 18, 2013 - 01:54am PT
f*#k them...no maybe about it...i say straight to the pitchforks
BruceAnderson

Social climber
Los Angeles currently St. Antonin, France
Oct 18, 2013 - 01:59am PT
Rock climber as eco warrior? Delusional as best.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 18, 2013 - 02:12am PT


While we're a lynchin' at least it looks like that top bolt is placed right next to decent pro in the crack. Is this at some kinda Sport area?

Peace

Karl
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA/Joshua Tree
Oct 18, 2013 - 02:18am PT
Karl when I saw that picture that was my exact first thought as well. :)

Apparently it's at some "new" crag around Tahoe that's getting developed.

FYI the text he wrote to that photo on FB is:

(Spray alert!) Super fun day up at the "new" crag today! Sent an amazing project that's around 14a (if you're my height with long arms, if you're shorter, well...) we're dubbing it 'Stars and Stripes'. Lizzy came up with the name. Huge thanks to @joekindkid for bolting the hard rigs up there and letting me climb one. This is definitely one of the best granite sport pitches I've ever done- had to wear the TC Bros to get we done of this so I could jam my toes on the layback sections! Psyched to go back soon. #psyched #tahoe @mountainhardwear @maximropes @lasportiva @sanukfootwear @touchstoneclimbing @petzl_official
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Oct 18, 2013 - 02:20am PT
That's not a crack Karl, it's a giant tick mark.
MisterE

climber
Oct 18, 2013 - 02:22am PT
(Spray alert!) Super fun day up at the "new" crag today! Sent an amazing project that's around 14a (if you're my height with long arms, if you're shorter, well...) we're dubbing it 'Stars and Stripes'. Lizzy came up with the name. Huge thanks to @joekindkid for bolting the hard rigs up there and letting me climb one. This is definitely one of the best granite sport pitches I've ever done- had to wear the TC Bros to get we done of this so I could jam my toes on the layback sections! Psyched to go back soon. #psyched #tahoe @mountainhardwear @maximropes @lasportiva @sanukfootwear @touchstoneclimbing @petzl_official

The tweet/FB/Sponsor/#hashtag thing is so far away from stewardship, it freaking breaks the heart.

WTF happened, and how can we find our way as caretakers.
Trusty Rusty

Trad climber
Tahoe area
Oct 18, 2013 - 02:35am PT
There's no Pringle trees in Tahoe
D Fred

Trad climber
san francisco, ca
Oct 18, 2013 - 02:37am PT
guys... what, is this fox news? cut the kid a break, no one even knows what happened yet.

Credit: D Fred
KP Ariza

climber
SCC
Oct 18, 2013 - 02:55am PT
Funny sh#t Russ.

Branch gets lopped off, its the end of the world as we know it......this has got to be a brilliant troll.

If you're top drawer....Caldwell, Sharma, Honnold etc., posing not required.

Second drawer....get your teeth whitened. Here

Don't kid yourself, Ethan is no arm chair quarterback.

Baba, get after it son! first "clean" ascent! I'm sure there's a sinker #7 wild country rock behind that feature that they chose to ignore.

i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Oct 18, 2013 - 03:04am PT
i don't know what happened, but the tree in the picture is a tree trunk, not a banch. look at the straightness as compared to the branch off and then turn towards the sun nature of the branches.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Oct 18, 2013 - 08:56am PT
This whole thing seems like a hoax.

The picture looks old and faded, very retro and film like, not digital.

Also, unless the tree or branch was moved it was felled towards the cliff, not away from the cliff. If you can fell something like that towards the cliff it's unlikely it could have been in the way of a climb.

That there is a FB image capture with a FB poster's name means nothing. Does anyone remember the forged Killian documents that ended Dan Rather's career at CBS? That FB image capture could have been easily fabricated.

Without corroborating details maybe it's best to adopt the approach of "innocent until proven guilty".

Just sayin'.

D
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 18, 2013 - 09:08am PT
Yeah, I'm kinda starting to agree..^^

Kinda weird we have seen zero facts and zero first hand accounts no response by any eye witness. All we have is one person asking a question and a post by one person stating a tree was cut to facilitate a photo of a new climb. The photo does seem oddly 1970's. As far as I can tell this entire thread has been running on those fumes.

I'm a conservationist, so I totally reject any unnecessary tree cutting. If it really happened I say burn the witch... but so far... we can't even find a witch . We need to to toss him in the vat and see if he sinks or floats before sending out the mob. (I know, I know.. this is the Taco.. we crucify first, ask questions later.)

Side note.. it really does look like that climb has a bolt every 5 feet next to a crack and the spray is totally lame. Could someone just be pissed off at this guy and stirring the pot?
Norwegian

Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
Oct 18, 2013 - 09:21am PT
i know of a prominent figure
in tahoe who hung his retired
shoes on the crown sprig
of a ancient tree at sugarloaf.

open eyes might spy them.

but, jesus. falling one of those
proud junipers for a finger
crack or crimps or whatever
line they sought is pretty
shitty.

i guess i've done some
shitty jestures towards
my kindom-kind, too,
so whom i to criticize?
billygoat

climber
Pees on beard to seek mates.
Oct 18, 2013 - 09:26am PT
Yep, Norwegian pretty much sums it up.
clinker

Trad climber
California
Oct 18, 2013 - 09:27am PT
Was the tree that ugly? I'll bet they have financed abortions or oil drilling too. Whoever cut down a tree in the wilderness for their own convenience is an idiot. In restitution volunteer for reforesting one of the areas decimated by fire recently or give a fire crew a case of brew at the least and find forgivness.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 18, 2013 - 09:30am PT
Yep, Norwegian pretty much sums it up.


Yup- he's good at that.

Anyone who lives in the area actually care to walk out there with a camera and report back?
billygoat

climber
Pees on beard to seek mates.
Oct 18, 2013 - 09:32am PT
I thought I was done posting, but then I checked the news and saw this:

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/ci_24334092/boy-scout-leaders-destroy-ancient-rock-formation-video

Totally unrelated, but there are surely similarities to this situation. If this even is a situation...
WTF

climber
Oct 18, 2013 - 09:32am PT
I'm just stoked that I've never heard of either if these kids. Really who are these people and who the hell cares. Nature sucks with its trees and plants and bushes and flowers and dirt and stuff like that. We need to clear it all and make way for some other stuff.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 18, 2013 - 09:35am PT
*hand palm* ^^^^

Oy..don't get me started on boyscout leaders. There's a guy that needs to be tossed on the barbie. What an as#@&%e... and there's video proof!
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Oct 18, 2013 - 09:59am PT
Big deal, why is everyone's panties in a bunch?



It's just a stupid rock. No better than a stupid tree.

Just some stupid rocks.



Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Oct 18, 2013 - 10:02am PT
OMG, is somebody really comparing one stupid tree to hetch hetchey?

I'm a hard-man climber, you can tell by my indifference.

Now I'm gunna go flip through my patagonia catalog -- it's the seventh one I got in the mail this year.

I'm too badass to be influenced by marketing.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 18, 2013 - 11:00am PT
Chipping has been going on for decades. It’s a huge part of our sports history, and even though everyone seems all enlightened now, people still do it, and chances are people will keep doing it somewhere as long as the sport is going on. Blah Blah Blah. Does everyone who is crucifying Ivan online right now know that some of the most famous and iconic climbs in the world are chipped, glued or otherwise manufactured in some way?

If altering the rock in order to send the sick new proj is acceptable, I doubt he would think twice about cutting down a tree. Trees grow back, right?

It seems perfectly feasible. That doesn't make it true, but obviously someone cut the tree. Fingers be pointing and the accused ain't denying. My guess is the original post got taken down because stupid sh#t like that will get crags closed. Best handled 1 on 2.

Glad to see the outrage. Sad to see some don't give a fuk when selfish actions like this threaten access for all of us.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Oct 18, 2013 - 11:19am PT
If this is a hoax, Bernie may be the hoaxee rather than the hoaxer. Did he take the pic himself? If so, when, where and under what circumstances?

Or did someone else send him the pic or a link to the pic online somewhere?
Roughster

Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
Oct 18, 2013 - 11:37am PT
Ethan's a stand up guy. Give him the benefit of the doubt until there are actually some facts instead of some suspect photos that looked doctored. Even the original/initial fb photo looks weird / suspicious to me.
Ryan Tetz

Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
Oct 18, 2013 - 11:39am PT
Hmm more American speculation and finger pointing political correctness culture with minimal facts at all. Next thing they will be calling them racist. Bound to happen occasionally that trees come down sometimes in the process of climbing rope work or get cut by climbers accustomed to it as normal. There are many climbing areas developed by chainsaw extensively. I've even been to one where local ethic was 5 gallon buckets of bleach followed up by gas powered belt sander.
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Oct 18, 2013 - 11:42am PT
I've even been to one where local ethic was 5 gallon buckets of bleach followed up by gas powered belt sander.

Please fill us in as to the name of this place.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Oct 18, 2013 - 11:42am PT
^yeah, thats not the local ethic here
phylp

Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
Oct 18, 2013 - 11:45am PT
Post #160 and no FACTS yet.

Sponsors are highly sensitive to their public image (obvious statement #1) and can exert influence on the people they sponsor, because $$ is involved (obvious statement #2).

If and when real FACTS come to light, people can choose to express their opinions directly to the sponsors, who can then choose to try to influence the behavior of the athlete (or not), or to continue to sponsor the athlete (or not).
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 18, 2013 - 11:49am PT
dis iz da interbebz,

facts? we do't need no stinkin facts
Blizzard

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Oct 18, 2013 - 11:50am PT
if you guys want facts and live in the tahoe area lets get out there this weekend and see what happend. I live in south lake tahoe and know where this crag is however i do not drive. if you are interested please contact me 714 742 8907 i work until 5pm today.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 18, 2013 - 11:52am PT
hahahaaaa... remember that video of Ivan? Remember how some people weren't convinced it was him doing the chipping, despite the video, other videos with chipping tools in them, and plenty of witnesses? Sometimes fluffers will defend the objects of their affection regardless of the facts.

Blizzard, I'm free Sun.
Blizzard

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Oct 18, 2013 - 11:57am PT
oh and since we are on the topic of ethics, regarding trees and such, what is okay to cut and what is not. I agree that chopping a juniper tree is bad, but what about some willows or alders at the base of a cool boulder. I am wondering because a bouldering crew of well known climbers cut a whole lot of trees recently about 2 weeks ago at a spot that is being developed. Is this okay? the pile of debris left over looked to be about the size of a medium burn pile. The area is right next to the PCT and the dead brush will soon be an eye sore. The guys doing the work are well known and experienced so they probably know what they are doing but i as a novice have no clue and i seek the knowledge of super topo users thanks guys
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 18, 2013 - 12:02pm PT
oxymoron:

and i seek the knowledge of super topo users
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Oct 18, 2013 - 12:02pm PT
In thirty-five years of developing bouldering areas, I never chopped down a tree. I removed a few branches, mostly small ones.

But the tree could still be a tree, and I could still be a climber.

Hell, I even minimized lichen removal.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Oct 18, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
From where I sit the video of Ivan chipping was and is still a whole lot more convincing than a faded seemingly film image of a felled tree with no one in it, let alone the accused.

No doubt this is the interwebz and all sorts of fake stuff will fly and the outrage will continue, but common decency suggests we employ some basic jurisprudence, "innocent until proven guilty" by a preponderance of the evidence, especially because the real names of real people are being used.

Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Oct 18, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
oh and since we are on the topic of ethics, regarding trees and such, what is okay to cut and what is not.

Of course there is a big grey area.

But if you find yourself bringing a chainsaw to an alpine area, you might be going too far.

I agree with Buck:

We-he-ell, uh, I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Oct 18, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
Instagram.
in tahoe city

climber
tahoe city, ca
Oct 18, 2013 - 12:15pm PT
Here are the simple facts. A tree was cut down for a bad reason. The cutter knows he shouldn't have done it, is very remorseful, and seems to have learned lessons about nature and the nature of people. He will likely never do such a thing again. He's done a good job trying to make things right with several of the people to whom this place matters. Sure, express your disappointment, but let's let the people involved move on and end this here and now.
p.s. It was not the massive beauty in the photo that EP posted. It was one that stood next to it; smaller, but no less special.
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Oct 18, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
The cutter knows he shouldn't have done it, is very remorseful, and seems to have learned lessons about nature and the nature of people. He will likely never do such a thing again.

Well, if he's sorry then I guess that's all right.

But I sure hope he/she's less than "likely never" to do it again.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 18, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
Blizzard, is this out by Bwood?

Land managers will sh#t if you cut any veg, especially riparian veg (willows, alders, etc)... especially without a permit. I don't care how sick the problems are, I avoid climbing in riparian areas and certainly don't cut veg in riparian areas. As long as the soils aren't compacted/eroded, the riparian veg should reestablish in a few years and reclaim the area in 10 years min (based on riparian restoration projects I have been involved in).

The FS does cut trees to reduce fuel loads, but the trees are in dense stands of (usually) lodgepole and/or fir, which grow like weeds. The FS spends years evaluating the impacts a thinning project will have on soil, vegetation, wildlife, etc etc etc. I believe they shoot for ~100 ft2 of basal area per acre. Removing a few white firs from a dense stand has far less impact on wildlife, hydrology, landscape, etc than removing a single juniper from the middle of a desert of granite.

The guys doing the work are well known and experienced so they probably know what they are doing...

Not necessarily. Many of them are smart and/or cool, but as far as I know none of them have actually studied natural science, worked in land management, or could tell a fir from a hemlock.
Blizzard

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Oct 18, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
In Tahoe city who are you and why remain anonymous? how are you related to the incident? Who is the cutter? Believe me that this place matters to more than several people and he is doing a bad job of making things right by being silent to this discussion. Those guys are lame for cutting that tree and then spraying about it on the internet. I mean how f*#king clueless can you be??? Sh#t i think it is lame that they spray about sending 13s & 14s on self titled blogs. It is only a little bit narcissistic. you know the pursuit of gratification from vanity or the egotistic admiration of ones own physical/mental attributes. or cutting a tree to get a picture of you sending your proj. Thanks for your input though.

-Bruce McIntosh
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 18, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
The cutter thread....reminds me of the shitter thread, the one that went on forever.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 18, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
donini, why do you hate trees?



FWIW... new account, single post...
Here are the simple facts. A tree was cut down for a bad reason. The cutter knows he shouldn't have done it, is very remorseful, and seems to have learned lessons about nature and the nature of people. He will likely never do such a thing again. He's done a good job trying to make things right with several of the people to whom this place matters. Sure, express your disappointment, but let's let the people involved move on and end this here and now.
p.s. It was not the massive beauty in the photo that EP posted. It was one that stood next to it; smaller, but no less special.

I'm guessing that is as close to an apology as we will get... due to legal considerations and such. Wish they hadn't thrown in the "likely" part. It really ain't that hard to learn a bit about the natural world and avoid these atrocities... hell, I did.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 18, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
Here are the simple facts. A tree was cut down for a bad reason. The cutter knows he shouldn't have done it, is very remorseful, and seems to have learned lessons about nature and the nature of people. He will likely never do such a thing again. He's done a good job trying to make things right with several of the people to whom this place matters. Sure, express your disappointment, but let's let the people involved move on and end this here and now.

if it was any other user besides a high number magazine cool guy you'd all be screaming for prosecution. but it's cool, shrug, no biggie. just a tree. ED: directed at the who f*#king cares tree shuggers here.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 18, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
A half-assed explanation on a FB post from someone other than the cutter is NOT an apology.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Oct 18, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
Jim, as you are a past president of the American Alpine Club, it's ironic to note in this thread that hundreds of trees are being cut down right now for the new AAC campground being built at the Gunks.

I guess it's ok for some people to cut down trees for climbing.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 18, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
I never said I thought it was an acceptable apology... or an apology at all. I said it was likely the closest we will get.

I think it was an appallingly ignorant thing to do, regardless of who did it. As far as high number magazine "cool" guys... pfft, some of us have barely even cracked a mag in 10 years and couldn't care less about the egos of the sport, until they start impacting our shared resources.

Nobody is beyond education (except chuff, Rong, and Dr. Al Siding). Hopefully they learn from this and stop treating outdoor crags like just another gym where sick proj's and photo ops are all that matter... or stay in the gym.

I have helped developed a reasonable number of areas from Colorado to California, Canada to SoCal. I have been toying with the idea of putting together some guidelines for more ecologically sound development... how to id important lichens, tree species, riparian vegetation, sensitive soils, erosion potential... eh, fukit, nobody cares.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 18, 2013 - 12:58pm PT
I wasn't questioning you Christ, more the douchey tone of the post you re-posted.

These guys have a massive carbon footprint trotting about the globe chasing winter and perfect rock, then still chop protected and loved ancient trees.

...and the irony is that he posts up trad climbing photos like he be the boss of minimalism.

chip a hold next time, the rock doesn't care.
Deekaid

climber
Oct 18, 2013 - 12:58pm PT
dropline I am sure it is just that black and white

yeah nice apology... they probably wear skinny jeans with white belts and white sunglasses
sick send
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 18, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
white was 2012.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 18, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
2 move boulder problems are rad.


Meanwhile, anyone who pays for a Heavenly, Kirkwood, Breckenridge, Canyons or any of the other Vail owned resorts is doing far more damage. But at least that damage is (usually) being evaluated and not just done on some whim. Plus everyone knows the importance of jobs and the economy!

Fear not... soon crags will get special use permits and managed just like ski resorts. A day pass and lift up to the crags: $20
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 18, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
Wait, this was for a photo op? not even to clean the route or whatever? A f'ing tree for a lousy picture? Seriously? This is the nature of sponsored climbers? The industry? WTF is happening?
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Oct 18, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
None of it is black and white.

Historically, scenically, and culturally there may be differences between the tree which is the subject of this thread and the AAC trees being cut down currently, but ecologically there is little, if any, difference.

In other words, it's the values we give the different trees, not the intrinsic ecological value of the trees themselves. It upsets us and others that the subject tree was cut down, and it's against the law probably too. But ecologically, it matters not that is was cut down.
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 18, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
How could you even remotely apologize for this? Someone should turn everyone involved in this event into the forest service or authorities, and we should demand that our laws function. Better yet, the chicken sh#t vaginas that are hiding in the shadows right now should just turn themselves in before we just start flipping their cars over whenever we see them at a California crag...
John M

climber
Oct 18, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
Regarding the cutting down of trees for the AAC's new camp I believe that is private property. Not certain, so someone correct me if I am wrong.

There is a difference between what we do on our own property and what we do on public lands.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 18, 2013 - 01:27pm PT
but ecologically there is little, if any, difference.

Not true. A single tree in the middle of a granite "desert" provides essential refuge for wildlife. Many species eat juniper berries and/or distribute the seeds. The canopy intercepts precipitation, reducing overland runoff. Litter from the tree slows overland runoff, reducing the impacts of erosion below.

How far is the nearest tree? How far is the nearest STANDING juniper? How much litter did that tree produce? Was it the dominant litter producer in the area? Were there any signs of important wildlife? Was it the dominant food producer in the area?

While paving over a dense stand of fir or lodgepole or whatever isn't ideal, as long as the habitat isn't too fragmented the ecological impact is minimal. Removing a giant juniper from a desert of granite has a much bigger ecological impact.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 18, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
I think it was an appallingly ignorant thing to do, regardless of who did it. As far as high number magazine "cool" guys... pfft, some of us have barely even cracked a mag in 10 years and couldn't care less about the egos of the sport, until they start impacting our shared resources.

I believe they've started
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 18, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
How is the ethics of some campground development on the other side of the continent relevant to this incident and thread? Stop railroading the conversation and let's have us a proper lynching...oh crap, someone cut the tree down...dang it..
klk

Trad climber
cali
Oct 18, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
Historically, scenically, and culturally there may be differences between the tree which is the subject of this thread and the AAC trees being cut down currently, but ecologically there is little, if any, difference.

swing and a miss.

even if "intrinsic value" and "ecological value" really were synonyms.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 18, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
I believe they've started

Which is the only reason I'm stating my opinion (and unfortunately giving them attention).
squishy

Mountain climber
Oct 18, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
Here are the simple facts. A tree was cut down for a bad reason. The cutter knows he shouldn't have done it, is very remorseful, and seems to have learned lessons about nature and the nature of people. He will likely never do such a thing again. He's done a good job trying to make things right with several of the people to whom this place matters. Sure, express your disappointment, but let's let the people involved move on and end this here and now.

Sounds to me like someone is cowering, hiding and making excuses. That says a thousand times more about the character of the person than any alleged act. Mentioning that the individual "learned something about human nature" is just a way to take the blame off of the person, like our reactions are somehow unfounded. Personal responsibility is a bitch sometimes but you have to man up to what you have done and who you are. And right now you are a douchbag.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Oct 18, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1836252&tn=0&mr=0
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 18, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
Habitat destruction is not a first world problem.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Oct 18, 2013 - 02:18pm PT
Habitat destruction is not a first world problem.

Perhaps not but, whining about it (unknown facts) endlessly on the web is...
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 18, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
No, dipsh#t, that is a first world reaction.

Rest assured, the facts are known... just not disclosed here.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Oct 18, 2013 - 02:22pm PT
Whine on
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 18, 2013 - 02:22pm PT
fuk off
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Oct 18, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
Climbing and other outdoor pursuits are "first world" activities.



mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 18, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
Those aren't the "problem" Kos.

Habitat/natural resource destruction is the problem, and it ain't limited to first world.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Oct 18, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
Prometheus (aka WPN-114) was the oldest known non-clonal organism, a Great Basin Bristlecone Pine (Pinus longaeva) tree growing near the tree line on Wheeler Peak in eastern Nevada, United States. The tree, which was at least 4862 years old and possibly more than 5000, was cut down in 1964 by a graduate student and United States Forest Service personnel for research purposes.[1] The people involved did not know of its world-record age before the cutting (see below), but the circumstances and decision-making process remain controversial; not all the facts are agreed upon by all involved.



Credit: survival
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 18, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
Equally appalling, IMO.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 18, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
Climbing without sponsors is still alot of fun.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 18, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
I once got to trim a bristle cone on wheeler. Twas on fire over looking an e face drop. about three minutes of cutting with a fresh sharpening and sparks were being emitted from the cuts. We did a very good job of the trimming, and the tree was alive and well the last time i saw it.. And i got an easy summit bag of wheeler taboot. Helicopter up to 12,000 lol!
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Oct 18, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
Historically, scenically, and culturally there may be differences between the tree which is the subject of this thread and the AAC trees being cut down currently, but ecologically there is little, if any, difference.

It's the process that matters. The AAC campground is not going to cause a backlash against climbers. The campground has been discussed for years and properly vetted by the local community that will be impacted. On the other hand, climbers can collectively look bad when someone unilaterally takes it upon himself to do something stupid--as we often get painted by the same broad-brush.

This in turn can lead to repercussions that will affect us all. In the late 80's a tree was cut down in the Gunks because it was in the way of a new, hard climb, and that action was a contributing factor in the permanent closure of SkyTop to all climbers.

Curt


Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Oct 18, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
klk, when saying the tree lacks intrinsic historical, scenic, or cultural value, I mean absent humans those values wouldn't exist. That leaves just ecological value, as an intrinsic value.

And mechrist, destruction of a specimen is not synonymous with destruction of habitat. Another of this species or of another species will take this specimens place in time.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 18, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
And mechrist, destruction of a specimen is not synonymous with destruction of habitat.

In terms of microhabitats in a desert of granite, they are indeed the same.

Another of this species or of another species will take this specimens place in time.

Perhaps, perhaps not.

But it will be at least 1,000 years before a tree that size occupies that space... providing the same amount of litter, food, shade, interception, etc. But hey, I'm sure it was a rad photo... and I'm sure they appreciate you trying to explain away the impacts of their actions.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 18, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
They should share a cell with the two Boy Scouts.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2250959/Idiot-scout-leaders
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Oct 18, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
I'm not explaining away the impacts. If an ancient tree was cut down for a photo shoot of a climb it's much more than a just little inappropriate and there may well be several different kinds of impacts over time, social and ecological.

But the sky is not falling.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 18, 2013 - 04:47pm PT
I don't recall ever mentioning anything about the sky. And if I thought it were falling, I'm sure I'd have something to say about it.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Oct 18, 2013 - 05:10pm PT
Jim, as you are a past president of the American Alpine Club, it's ironic to note in this thread that hundreds of trees are being cut down right now for the new AAC campground being built at the Gunks.

I guess it's ok for some people to cut down trees for climbing.
Where trees are plentiful and quick growing, such as around the Gunks, you bet.
I am of course presuming they are preserving any old growth trees at the Gunks and some number of middle aged trees. Also, presumably, the plans have been approved by a licensed forester.

Sounds to me as if a few people on this forum have no idea how long it takes to grow a Juniper (or even a branch) to that size.
I'm no expert on which species this tree was but for comparison consider the Juniperus occidentalis (Western Juniper and Sierra Juniper)
California and westernmost Nevada, south of 40° 30' N latitude in the Sierra Nevada and San Bernardino Mountains. A medium-sized tree 12–26 m tall with a stout trunk up to 3 m diameter.
Juniperus occidentalis usually occurs on dry, rocky sites where there is less competition from larger species like Ponderosa Pine and Coast Douglas-fir.
.
.
.
The Bennett Juniper in the Stanislaus National Forest of California is considered the oldest and largest example at possibly 3000 years old, with a height of 26 m and a diameter of 3.88 m.[1]
For pics see:
http://www.savetheredwoods.org/what-we-do/protect/BennettJuniper.php
Note the "smaller" junipers in the background.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juniperus_occidentalis
This tree could easily have been 1000 years old.

no big deal.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 18, 2013 - 07:17pm PT

How much do semi-famous sponsored climbers get paid? Maybe he/they could save their sponsorships by coming clean and coming up with $50,000 in donations to something like save the redwoods. Clearly they/he made a mistake so now it is time to try to fix the mistake. They could even make a video about how ingnorant he/they were but they learned a lesson and donated a years pay and how he/they are less ignorant now.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 18, 2013 - 07:59pm PT
I don't think they make that much. Travel expenses, free gear, and a stipend. There was a thread about this a while back. Honnold was able to get a new van with his sponsorships, which isn't nothing, but still.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 18, 2013 - 08:03pm PT
Sponsors should require an outdoor ethics course before they let them out of the gyms.
phylp

Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
Oct 18, 2013 - 08:22pm PT
^^^ Interesting idea. It seems like they would have some "FAQS for sponsored Climbers" that would include some kind of expectation of behavior.
MisterE

climber
Oct 18, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
Wondering if the picture I posted was the "one" that they had to cut the tree down to take.

If not, I think we deserve to evaluate the quality of the picture, and decide if it is worthy of a juniper-felling.

PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 18, 2013 - 08:58pm PT
There is a legal process for determining how much a tree is worth. It has do with replacement of an equal tree. I heard of a case where someone cut down a few of their neighbors trees. The judge determined that to replace the full gown trees, that would have to be helicoptered in, the value was in the 100's of thousands of $$$$.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 18, 2013 - 09:29pm PT
A ranger once told me that NPS doesn't let you just replace it with a similar tree of the same species either; it has to be from exactly the same genetic stock. In other words, it doesn't happen.
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Oct 18, 2013 - 10:10pm PT
Joe "Blow" Kinder should be stripped of his trust fund.
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 18, 2013 - 10:14pm PT
...Clearly they/he made a mistake...

I am still waiting for someone (other than an anonymous poster making cryptic statements about "learned lessons") to come forward with accurate information about what happened. In lieu of some facts, this thread is little more than a duck fart in the breeze.

That being said, if they did chop the tree for a photo op, they f*#ked up big time and need to be held accountable.
KP Ariza

climber
SCC
Oct 18, 2013 - 10:31pm PT
Another obnoxious on line sh#t show
Get off your asses and go ask the man directly if you're so concerned.
Otherwise STFU.....
clinker

Trad climber
California
Oct 18, 2013 - 10:50pm PT
What about the rocks/blocks that we climbers knock off. Shouldn't they be retrieved and the rock restored to its original condition. Imagine this, a climber places cam, then falls, causing boot flake to detach, unfortunately taking out many teams below. Concerned climbers piece the boot back together(over 3 decades) in its former pristine glory and further fill in all the pin scares in the Valley (over the next 5 decades). What a wonder that would be, except few El Cap routes could be freed, bummer.
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Oct 18, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
Sorry clinker your post is a clunker.

Ariza, take your meds.
clinker

Trad climber
California
Oct 18, 2013 - 11:46pm PT
Now I'm depressed, tomorrow I will cut down a tree for firewood, and then burn it, when it dries, which won't be this year. Any dry juniper out there?
KP Ariza

climber
SCC
Oct 19, 2013 - 12:52am PT
Kalimon, I always do. Cold Belgian beer.

Oh and, eat a choad fluffer.
basecamper

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe
Oct 19, 2013 - 01:47am PT
Credit: basecamper


Credit: basecamper


Whoever is responsible for this please step up, and I will consider returning the items I seized this afternoon.

This isn't the crime of the century but there are some violations that should be addressed.

Honesty and responsibility goes a long way with me.

Thanks


USFS Law Enforcement Officer
Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit





treez

Trad climber
99827
Oct 19, 2013 - 01:55am PT
Well that took a long time to read!

And then the actual cop posts up at the end.

Supertaco solid gold.

I would have left the tree as a rest.

Maybe a good spot to grab a sandwich out of the pack
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Oct 19, 2013 - 02:04am PT
I read through the whole thread. Typical of ST.
The cop's post is one of the few reasonable ones I've read.

My 2cents is simply that someone who would cut a tree like that has probably done that kind of thing before. Being held accountable by the land managers should be key in changing this behavior. Everyone screws up sometime, so restitution for the mistake is a reasonable expectation and evidence to the climbing community of that is also reasonable IMHO.
We all have something to gain or lose.

As a back note Russ's PS image sure got a bunch of you...troll meister:-)

Cheers
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Oct 19, 2013 - 03:45am PT
USFS Law Enforcement Officer
Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit

You would think a cop would leave a name and a phone number or some other means of contact besides this thread.
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Oct 19, 2013 - 05:09am PT
Seems like a cop wouldn't post at all, seems like it would absolutely compromise a case. Although impersonating an officer is its own offense.
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Oct 19, 2013 - 08:35am PT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 19, 2013 - 09:05am PT
Who cut the redwood off the whitehouse lawn during the shutdown, that's what I wanna know.

Ima cop too!!!11111

DMT
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Oct 19, 2013 - 10:00am PT
I guess the cop would have included his/ her name.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 19, 2013 - 10:08am PT
Well, at least the "cop" posted some actual photos.

Meh BTW. WTF is wrong with people?
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Oct 19, 2013 - 10:11am PT
"Meh BTW. WTF is wrong with people?"

WB knows.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Oct 19, 2013 - 11:06am PT
I have no idea what actually happened or not. I'd like to hear from the climber(s) in question. But they either are not talking, or they aren't aware of this thread.

I've therefore started emailing each of Kinder's sponsors this message:



Hello, I live and climb in California. In the last few days I've become aware of an issue/question involving a climber I think you sponsor: Joe Kinder. The controversy is playing out on the discussion forum of a very popular web site called "Supertopo." Here's a link to the discussion:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2249896/Joe-Kinder-Ethan-Pringle-tree-incident

I have no idea if what is claimed to have occurred actually happened or not. If what is claimed is true, namely that your sponsored climber cut down a tree to facilitate a photo shoot, then maybe you should consider having a little talk with him about his conduct and his relationship with your company.

But who knows whether it is true or not? Perhaps you could take a more critical step, and ask your sponsored climber to respond publicly about what happened (or didn't happen) so that rumors and innuendo can be replaced by fact.

I respect and patronize your company. I hope and expect that you consider your own image when you're considering which climbers to sponsor and not.

Yours Sincerely,

Brad Young, Twain Harte California


It seems like if these two climbers are aware of what's being said, and aware of this thread, that they could shed some light here very quickly.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Oct 19, 2013 - 11:06am PT
that picture looks pretty bad. if that is actually un-retouched, and the p/k team did the cutting, that's pretty bad. not crime of the century, indeed, but not going to help with relations with land managers and other stakeholders.

it's not like the jillionth yellow pine in some over-populated generic chunk of conifers.

Deekaid

climber
Oct 19, 2013 - 11:10am PT
They will now forever be Joe Kindling and Ethan Pringletree
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 19, 2013 - 11:20am PT
I've repeatedly emailed both parties directly. They are very aware of the thread. The alleged accomplice denies involvement. Alleged chopper unresponsive. I suspect in 'taking the fifth' mode.
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Oct 19, 2013 - 11:25am PT
They need a proactive PR team right now.

Letting their names be dragged through the mud.

Out with it. The longer you wait, the worse it becomes.
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Oct 19, 2013 - 11:27am PT
Oh and, eat a choad fluffer.

Nice comeback . . . haven't heard that c-word since jr. high.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Oct 19, 2013 - 11:42am PT
I'd like to hear from him/them. If what appears to be true is true, I'd like to hear it directly. If it isn't, I'd take their word for it.

If he/they did this, I will have lost a lot of respect for them.

But on the other hand if they come forward with the truth, and maybe some recognition that they made a mistake (if it is true), then most of that respect would be restored.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 19, 2013 - 11:57am PT
And then the actual cop posts up at the end.

hahahaaa... like an "actual cop" would/could hike up there! hahahaaaaa

I was serious about a natural resource conservation/ecology/outdoor ethics class for sponsored climbers. It could help avoid this kind of sh#t before it happens, would look good to land managers, and could help the sponsoring companies avoid dealing with this negative image.

Plant identification
Sensitive community identification
Erosion potential
Soil impacts
Plus cool stuff like geomorphology and geology

I think it would be pretty easy to get a handful of grad students at major universities with good natural resource departments (CSU, NAU, UCD, SUNY ESF, etc etc) to throw something together addressing some of the major concerns in local areas. They could even have Rong teach tree ID... if anyone ever wanted to climb in Woodrows.

(that tree ain't 1K yrs old, but several hundreds for sure)
j-tree

Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
Oct 19, 2013 - 11:57am PT
Fair direction to go with things imo Brad.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 19, 2013 - 12:46pm PT
from FB

Joe Kinder is one of the most influential rock climbers in America today. Whether reaching out to people through his popular blog, or meeting climbers in person at crags Joe embodies his ALWAYS PSYCHED motto.


Hey Joe, Psyched about reaching out on your blog and using your position as 'one of the most influential climbers in America today' to comment on these allegations?

basecamper

Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe
Oct 19, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
Credit: basecamper

In my experience with Western Juniper, you can count the annular rings on the stumps. These rings are so close together they are invisible. It is likely these was a very old tree. People love old trees.

Somebody knows what happened. Rather than keep this under wraps, let's talk about how to represent climbing in the best light, as good stewards of the resources we use. I will keep your information confidential.

Click on my name "basecamper" and a button appears "email basecamper" then I'll give you my official contact info.

USFS Law Enforcement Officer
LTBMU
35 College Way
South Lake Tahoe, CA
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Oct 19, 2013 - 01:28pm PT
that photo explains it. those roots were cutting in to their route. like a tree too close to a pool, it just has to go. (sarcasm)
Michelle

Social climber
1187 Hunterwasser
Oct 19, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
good one Brad!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 19, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
Hello USFS LEO officer. Former LEO here. seems we have a 261.6 ~~~Could be A or H even.. As a natural feature rather than minor forest product, a mandatory appearance at SLT may be in order.

As as climbers, you can see from these posts,, we dont often approve of such happenings.


Ps,, the cutters were rookies, as that stump is crapola.
Michelle

Social climber
1187 Hunterwasser
Oct 19, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
Hey, good job Russ!
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 19, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
Someone has to come clean especially if one of them is not guilty.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 19, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
what with the facebook/media postings and such, im sure there is evidence enough for some questioning.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Oct 19, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
Interesting.

basecamper has posted two photos. They are two entirely different stumps.





mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 19, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
I still don't believe basecamper is LEO. Why would they hike up there, place a draw and cam next to the stump and take a pic, then stack a rope next to the stump and take another pic? And why is that rope all chopped to bits? And why are the stumps different? The one with the rope seems to fit the tree better. Where there multiple trees cut?

I sure as hell hope this crag doesn't get shut down...
Deekaid

climber
Oct 19, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
the more this unfolds or fails to unfold the weirder this gets
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Oct 19, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
As soon as i saw the rock behind the downed tree in basecamper's first pic i recognized the place. i was up there about a month ago. here is the tree still standing.
Credit: i'm gumby dammit
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 19, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
It is a beautiful crag... one that "is not in Tahoe... I repeat, is NOT in Tahoe..."

got it?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Oct 19, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
Brad
Well done.

It's almost certain that sponsored climbers' contracts contain "good citizenship" clauses.
Brad's direct message to the sponsors should bring some clarity. Unless of course the sponsors choose to quietly cover it up to protect their own names.

I've no doubt the USFS guy (basecamp) is real. LEOs seldom put their names in public correspondence. I look forward to his count of the tree rings.

the cutters were rookies, as that stump is crapola.
arrogant poseurs and idiots are the words that come to my mind.
Almost as irresponsible as the wahoo "scout leaders" in Goblin Valley.
At least another tree might grow to the same size nearby in the next millennium or so. I suppose a lot depends on how Junipers will respond to global warming. That Goblin rock ain't growing back.....ever. A silent testimony to human stupidity.

And WTF were the tree cutting perps thinking? Whomever they were. Are they totally ignorant of climbing ethics in the US? A callous disrespect for our natural environment? Or are they above that sort of thing? Forward thinking Engineers of some sort of Climbing New World Order?
"we're demi-gods and we can screw around with the crags as if they are gym walls"?

At least they won't be forgotten soon. "Hey there go Dork and Twit. They're the retards who cut down that Juniper at Whatsit crag."

(end of rant.....at least for today)

Great pic gumby.
BrentA

Gym climber
Roca Rojo
Oct 19, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
A strong message for all humans.

Leave no trace.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Oct 19, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
I just can't figure out how the tree could be in the way of a picture there.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Oct 19, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
It hurts to look at that stump.

Sure, in the scheme of things there are a lot more f*#ked up stuff happening. All the more reasons each person has to take control in their own (shared) space and do the right thing.

I know how you feel Iron Eyes Cody



nah000

climber
canuckistan
Oct 19, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
an explanation for the two different stumps?

i'm gumby dammit's photo cropped
i'm gumby dammit's photo cropped

basecamper's photo cropped
basecamper's photo cropped
tr4

climber
Tuolumne Meadows, Ca
Oct 19, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
two trees were cut looks like
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Oct 19, 2013 - 05:00pm PT
cropped from the original for better detail
Credit: i'm gumby dammit
j-tree

Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
Oct 19, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
Wow. Two trees. Wow.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 19, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
That larger juniper had survived a pretty good lightning strike- from the pic and obvious scar. Ive always thought of those rock bound trees as warriors, growing against all odds. Natures Bonsai if you will ..Defiant in their own right.

Spugly ol trees.. Characters.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Oct 19, 2013 - 06:36pm PT
^^^^^^
Ron waxes poetic
seriously

2 trees? abominable.
I too think the trees enhanced the photo ops. But that is completely beside the point.
Deekaid

climber
Oct 19, 2013 - 06:43pm PT
it is almost hard to believe... they thought no one would notice?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Oct 19, 2013 - 06:44pm PT
Obviously not the brightest bulbs in the firmament.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 19, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
HT,, yes i wax.. However, ive also cut down a million board feet of lumber, thinned about a million trees too. ;-)

But i never once cut a bush or a tree out/off/away from any crag. There were those i certainly wished a quick death from a handy lightning strike however, i always have had a soft spot for the warriors, which is what i call those twisted up worthless pos Junipers, cedars, pines and piss firs.

The wind tree on eagle lake buttress is a PRIME example. Ol right angle rodney he is. Proud and old. Bent from the winds of time from a child. And met many a po0r climbers head as they do the last moves on that route!
klinefelter

Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
Oct 19, 2013 - 06:58pm PT
I have a feeling those two rockstars never hang out at a given area more than a few days, then it's on to the next hot new crag to leave their mark. Incidents like these are sad, but certainly not surprising given the degree of narcissism and entitlement in the upper echelon of the sport these days. The wilderness ethic seems to have slowly evaporated, and lines of distinction from gym to outdoors blurred.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Oct 19, 2013 - 07:10pm PT
well, it's only a tree, it will grow back.

It's not like they defaced some rock by drilling holes on public land and leaving shiny objects that will last for decades then smearing it with some magnesium carbonate that can be seen by everyone.

Misplaced outrage is so hot right now.

If someone cut a trail for mountain bikes or a ski trail, there would be hell to pay from the overlords. We are lucky the FS and NP put up with the chit we pull on public lands.



HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Oct 19, 2013 - 07:13pm PT
well, it's only a tree, it will grow back.
Not even in your great grandchildren's lifetime will it be more than a shrub.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 19, 2013 - 07:15pm PT
If a person wants to cut down a tree on their own land, they MAY be able to do that, it depends.

But if it is on public land, it did not belong to that person, it belonged to a lot of people, and none of them consented to this.

Think of it as someone deciding they think the tires on your car would look better in the dumpster, and relieved you of them. That's theft.

Some have talked about impact of cutting other trees down. all the other examples have been of trees that required evaluations, and permits, to be taken down.

I speak with some experience, as an instructor for the USFS in cutting trees.
Any decision in cutting a live tree is a big damn deal, and is only undertaken with a lot of thought.

This kind of vandalism on public lands, by a public figure, is odious.

When so many climbers have done so much to build trust and obtain access, it just makes you cry to see something like this violation of trust.

When climbers whine about restricted access to places, and why land managers won't "just trust" us to protect the resources, falcons, frogs, whatever.....this sets us back 100 years.

The loggers were better....at least they used what they killed.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 19, 2013 - 07:17pm PT
Oh, and when the climbing community is not simply unanimously condemning this, the land managers see us for what we are.....saying what we think needs to be said to get what we want, but when we get out there, doing whatever.

It breaks your heart.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 19, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
"It's almost hard to believe...They thought no one would notice"

That statement does my head in.

For a long time I though my friends had forgotten stuff... It turns out they actually made the call and chose to forgive.
clinker

Trad climber
California
Oct 19, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
Goatboy has an important perspective, but one the climbing community is happily blind to. Where I climb it is easy to make bolts disappear with a little artistic painting. You can hardly find one right in front of your face if its been "camoed". Made a trip few years ago to Red Rocks NV and saw the obvious WTF ,ugly decimation of the wilderness by us climbers putting up our routes everywhere. Is there anything we can do about the visual impact of bolted routes as a responsible community? Before we get thrown out for good.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 19, 2013 - 07:59pm PT
Is there anything we can do about the visual impact of bolted routes as a responsible community? Before we get thrown out for good.

In Red Rocks? Less than 5 miles from the nearest Starbucks? Where you can see the light of the Luxor from damn near any crag? Where development right up to the boundary is a real threat nearly every year? Where "Conservation" apparently means "make everyone drive the entire loop, even though the vast majority of people don't get out of their cars anywhere past Sandstone Quarry"? Where everyone and their dog wanders aimlessly through the fragile desert soils and vegetation and shits behind every bush? Where burrows are allowed to completely fuk sensitive desert riparian areas because some Spaniards left them behind hundreds of years ago?

That Red Rocks?

Yeah, the visual impacts of bolts and chalk are a huge issue.
clinker

Trad climber
California
Oct 19, 2013 - 08:13pm PT
So right, I will now return my focus to the juniper tree stump.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 19, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
Just giving you sh#t... I don't like the looks of chalk on the bright red sandstone either. Unfortunately I haven't seen a good alternative. Dyed chalk is far, far worse.
Deekaid

climber
Oct 19, 2013 - 08:51pm PT
I did not make a statement Jim Brennan I asked a question albeit a hypothetical one
Ham and Eggs

Mountain climber
Anorak I/Mt Cook
Oct 19, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
Kinder gets a bit of support from Eastern Mountain Sports
Pringle got love from Mountain Hardwear this year to second Libecki in Greenland and sprays like a b!tch
Their decisons here are seen to be more about 'psyche' and show than stewardship
Placing bolts for safety - sometimes maybe
Pulling trees for a photo shoot no matter there age, is not consistent with good standards
Hope they've learnt
Good to hear the community speaking up
Bad Acronym

climber
Little Death Hollow
Oct 19, 2013 - 09:21pm PT
I have it on good authority that these two recently poisoned a seventy-year-old marmot for having eaten their most precious cache of cappucino-flavored GU gels and "severely undermining [their] stoke."
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 19, 2013 - 09:49pm PT
Let them both share cells with the porcine Boy Scout "leaders".

They can duke it out over who's pitching and who's catching.
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Oct 19, 2013 - 09:55pm PT
It seems to me that the companies offering the sponsorship status should make an effort to be clear that these types of behavior will not be tolerated.

Granted, the climbers in question should know better.

Very unfortunate.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Oct 19, 2013 - 10:04pm PT

Book 'em, Dano!
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Oct 19, 2013 - 10:43pm PT
Let them both share cells with the porcine Boy Scout "leaders".

They can duke it out over who's pitching and who's catching.

Nothing classes up a finger pointing internet lynch thread like a TGT post.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Oct 19, 2013 - 10:44pm PT
Deekaid,

There is no difference regarding a statement if it's final punctuation is a period or a question mark. You still said something and that's a good thing.
Deekaid

climber
Oct 19, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
i think your first reply to my post went over my head
harryhotdog

Social climber
north vancouver, B.C.
Oct 20, 2013 - 12:33am PT
Somebody count those tree rings!

I think if these guys were more knowledgeable about the age of these trees and the fact that they were ultimate survivors in a harsh location they probably would not have removed them.
If they were cottonwoods, poplars or alders there would be another 50 billion to take there place and it would not have mattered but these trees were different.
It's time for whoever cut these trees down to become more aware of the amazing world around them that has nothing to do with climbing. "Take only pictures and leave only footprints, I mean bolts" at a minimum.
I wouldn't be surprised if the larger crooked tree was 300 years or older.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDEQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dendrochronology.net%2Fjuniper.asp&ei=hFpjUrnPC8-QyQGuzICYDQ&usg=AFQjCNGioCP83wpqlHMVxAP8ocPHuykebQ

Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Oct 20, 2013 - 12:35am PT
"Book 'em, Dano!"

Now that was funny:-)
Hankster

Social climber
Golden, CO
Oct 20, 2013 - 12:37am PT
You call yourself harryhotdog. Why didn't I think of something cool like that?
harryhotdog

Social climber
north vancouver, B.C.
Oct 20, 2013 - 12:39am PT
Because you didn't run a hotdog stand.
MisterE

climber
Oct 20, 2013 - 12:40am PT
That is a really funny exchange.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 20, 2013 - 12:43am PT
here's a hot dog stand

Walleye

climber
The Hot Kiss on the end of a Wet Fist
Oct 20, 2013 - 12:50am PT
Funny, Bad A.... Very funny, indeed!
harryhotdog

Social climber
north vancouver, B.C.
Oct 20, 2013 - 12:55am PT
Thread drift

Credit: harryhotdog
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Oct 20, 2013 - 01:16am PT
Hahahahahaha!!! Nice tat!! Lol
treez

Trad climber
99827
Oct 20, 2013 - 01:29am PT
http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/decision-central/destroying-the-planet-one-iphone-at-a-time/
harryhotdog

Social climber
north vancouver, B.C.
Oct 20, 2013 - 01:35am PT
We climbed and put slings around these cliff dwelling cedars at Rattlesnake point all the time throughout the eighties when I first started climbing. They are not particularly large so their age went undiscovered until the late eighties. Being on the cliff faces they avoided the regular forest fires that would of occurred from time to time above and below.

http://drreese.wordpress.com/2013/10/20/ancient-forests-cling-to-the-niagara-escarpment/
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 20, 2013 - 01:53am PT
those trees still there?
steveA

Trad climber
Wolfeboro, NH
Oct 20, 2013 - 07:55am PT
harryhotdog,

Great read! I'm amazed to learn that!!
tr4

climber
Tuolumne Meadows, Ca
Oct 20, 2013 - 08:17am PT
Any responses from the cutters..?
billygoat

climber
Pees on beard to seek mates.
Oct 20, 2013 - 08:51am PT
I've haven't seen a response--public or private. There was a brief post on Instagram by Joe Kinder--a photo of The Cathedral (crag near St. George) and a caption about needing to learn a lesson. It was somewhat cryptic and avoiding the issue. I posted a comment there asking for a direct explanation. A short while later, he deleted that photo as well. Not sure what's going on with Ethan, as we're not connected through social media. His friends tell me he's received a ton of threats and is well aware.

I wish people would stop sending threats. That's childish and serves mostly as a form of encouragement to keep Joe and Ethan from talking or showing their faces. These two are certainly aware of the situation. I'm not sure if they know of this exact thread, but they definitely know the climbing community at large is concerned about what went on.

Brand Young's suggestion and actions are exactly representative of the reasons I started this thread. I wanted you all to be aware that something concerning us, as a community of public land users, was taking place. If you are concerned about the larger impact these sorts of actions may have, please urge the sponsors of both Joe and Ethan to require their athletes to come forward with an open and direct explanation of their involvement--whatever it may or may not be. By default, even if Joe and Ethan didn't do it, they're involved because members of the climbing community were led to believe so. For their own sake, they need to respond in a direct and open manner. At this point, we can't reverse what happened, but we can differentiate the actions of a few from the expectations of our community. In the eyes of public land managers, this will serve us all a better future at the crags. This can be done in many ways, but most importantly through those involved taking responsibility for their actions and showing a public change of heart moving forward.

Finally, thanks for keeping the thread alive. It means this sort of stuff counts. Even if the conversation does (at times) dwell in speculative finger-pointing, it shows that we all seek a better resolution. But, seriously, get rid of the naked pics! If that's an attempt to get this thread nuked, it's a poor troll.
WTF

climber
Oct 20, 2013 - 09:03am PT
I don't really care who these two dip shits are but can I go up and retrieve the tree buck it up and split it for wood this year?

Or are the cops holding as evidence. I bet that thing burns hot.

Harry hot dog that's some seriously good reading.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 20, 2013 - 09:20am PT
This whole thing makes me sick and incredibly sad. It's two trees now? Those junipers aren't growing back. Ditto on HighTraverese's and Harry's sentiments. It kinda sucks there have been "threats" but perhaps it will drive the gravity of the crime into their self-absorbed heads.

Anyone care to post a list of the sponsors? Since the perps have gone underground I think our energy would be best spent putting the screws on the companies that support these guys. They have a responsibility to enforce stewardship and responsible behavior with their athletes IMO.

From FB:
Joe Kinder is one of the most influential rock climbers in America today...


Uh.. right.. I'd never heard of this guy ever until this thread. Hopefully he will get dumped and fade into total obscurity after all this dies down.
billygoat

climber
Pees on beard to seek mates.
Oct 20, 2013 - 09:36am PT
You can find Joe's sponsors at his blog at the top of the page:

http://www.joekindkid.com/

Ethan's are listed on his blog as well, though he doesn't update his blog nearly as often:

http://www.ethanpringle.com/sponsors/
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 20, 2013 - 09:52am PT
I like the fact that Patagonia refers to their sponsored climbers, skiiers et al as "ambassadors" rather than "atheletes." Thus the emphasis is on reflecting the companies values rather than on the athleticisim or audaciousness of the climb itself.
Sponsored climbers are usually young and ambitious and the competition for sponsorship is fierce. Companies have an obligation to coach and mentor them regarding their values. If the company is Red Bull, that's one thing, but most companies in the outdoor business purport to highly value the natural world.
billygoat

climber
Pees on beard to seek mates.
Oct 20, 2013 - 10:03am PT
Well said, Jim.
Deekaid

climber
Oct 20, 2013 - 10:52am PT
threats of violence are over the top. That is when I go with the other side and say
it is "just a tree "
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 20, 2013 - 11:13am PT
Threats of violence are always lame. Almost as lame as cutting ancient treeS for a photo op.

La Sportiva also refers to their sponsored yahoos as "ambassadors."
http://www.sportiva.com/
klk

Trad climber
cali
Oct 20, 2013 - 11:16am PT
yes i wax


tmi
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 20, 2013 - 12:05pm PT
My goals are to keep raising the bar for hard climbing, podium at a world cup, become a better surfer, live a eco-friendly life, go to college, cherish my family, friends, and animals, keep traveling, and enjoy new experiences
http://www.ethanpringle.com
Deekaid

climber
Oct 20, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
why not post the sponsors here so people don't have to go to their website? I personally am not going to the blog or website of either of these guys
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Oct 20, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
I have a feeling those two rockstars never hang out at a given area more than a few days, then it's on to the next hot new crag to leave their mark. Incidents like these are sad, but certainly not surprising given the degree of narcissism and entitlement in the upper echelon of the sport these days. The wilderness ethic seems to have slowly evaporated, and lines of distinction from gym to outdoors blurred.

Nice elucidation.

Joe Kinder, why don't you make this easy on yourself and start talking.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Oct 20, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
I'm not sure what make me sickest - the apologist or the cutters.

These were not just trees - they were living ancient artifacts.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 20, 2013 - 12:23pm PT
Seems these two are bolt clipping "fiends" to quote Kidner. And they travel climb an "spray" according to Pringle. So a couple of Bay area doinks travel, saw down what they want and leave. Kinda like shytting on someone elses lawn and leaving the scene. Most definitely sent an email to their company's they "represent".. Bet they travel less if they have to pay for their goodies.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 20, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
What Frumy said.^^^

These are not "just trees" to many people. Asshole climbers are a dime a dozen. Old-growth trees are sacred living objects to a lot of us.

Composing my letter to the sponsors now.
Deekaid

climber
Oct 20, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
yes sir...thank you sir
Deekaid

climber
Oct 20, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
nice delete deedeestyle
Deekaid

climber
Oct 20, 2013 - 12:49pm PT
I do not as a rule engage in debate in situations where people cannot be held immediately accountable for their words. I make comments and give my opinion. but for the record...
I got out of bed by rolling to my side and using my arm to help push myself up while swinging my legs to the floor. I learned that years ago while working for a chiropractor and have used it ever since.
I didn't ask for links just one sentence listing their sponsors and I would have taken it from there.
I thrive on my own fear
no I do not want to see one second of their spray
thank you
James

climber
My twin brother's laundry room
Oct 20, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
If people have a problem with these guys' actions, it'd be better if they contacted them directly instead of talking sh#t on the internet or bad mouthing their sponsors.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Oct 20, 2013 - 01:07pm PT
I haven't seen anybody bad mouths their sponsors. The point is to contact them and let them know what lame sh#t their "ambassadors" are doing.
WBraun

climber
Oct 20, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
Cutting down trees is not new at all to gain access to a climb.

There's been a few trees cut down in Yosemite also.

One time I told the potential culprit not do it.

The tree was blocking in front of a stupid boulder problem.

Fell on deaf ears as far as that went. He cut it down.

Two other times I was able to do routes with trees close enough to the climb where one could stem back to it or lean back onto it without ever touching the tree.

Both those trees have been cut down also.

This so called Pringle tree incident is not looking good either.

It's so much easier to walk away or do it with the tree in the way.

Those trees are so beautiful next to the rock and enhance each other.

Why do we need to do this kind of damage anyways?

Just plain stupid .....

ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 20, 2013 - 01:13pm PT
I will be writing all of their sponsors later today. I hope that others will take the time to do the same. The cutting of the trees was deplorable on a number of different levels. The attempt to "cover-up" what happened shows that these guys are not truly remorseful, but just want to avoid any negative consequences for acting like douche-bags.

As sponsored athletes, these climbers live off the good-will of the climbing community and tacitly make the claim that they represent "the best" that the climbing world has to offer. Their actions (cutting down the tree and their behavior after the fact) show that this is not the case. If we as a community allow this to pass without comment, then we are giving this behavior our stamp of approval.

Threats of violence against these guys are totally uncalled for. I wish no ill-will towards either Joe or Ethan. However, I would be VERY happy to explain to them in person how incredibly wrong their behavior is. Violence is never the answer, but when people act like as#@&%es they need to be confronted. These guys deserve to hear from us regarding how we view their actions.

Contrary to some posters, I do not see this thread as a witch hunt. In my opinion this thread is a constructive tool that allows members of the community to express our outrage over two climbers destructive and narcissistic behavior. I want to see this thread continue and see other climbers write to Joe, Ethan and their sponsors. Joe and Ethan need to be held accountable.

powderdan

Social climber
mammoth lakes
Oct 20, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
Such an act illustrates a great divide in the "outdoor community". Such disregard for others subsequent experience demonstrates a complete disconnect from both nature and community.
These guys deserve whatever fate has in store for them. Total bonehead manuver.
jstan

climber
Oct 20, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
Can someone assemble and post a list of sponsors for each and include the sponsor's mailing address?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Oct 20, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
^^^ ncrockclimber +1
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 20, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
what ncrockclimberguy said

Time for sponsors to stop pouring resources into more "radness" and start investing in education about the natural world we share. Honestly, who gives a fuk about another 5.14a? Especially if the developers feel the need to inflict that kind of damage.



FWIW, Joe and Ethan both seemed like decent guys when I crossed paths with them years ago. But how they interact with other people at the crag is not the issue. They are clearly clueless about the natural world they exploit for their radness. At this point the best we can hope for is that they (and others) learn from this stupid mistake.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Oct 20, 2013 - 01:24pm PT
+ another one for what ncrockclimber wrote.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 20, 2013 - 01:24pm PT
I wrote LaSportiva a very nice message, including the fact ive used their shoes for decades. And then expressed my deep disappointment in the two who represent them in such a POOR manner.
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 20, 2013 - 01:28pm PT
My understating is that one of them denied it and one wrote a cryptic comment about "lessons learned" via social media. The comment was subsequently deleted and both of them are now being silent. They delete any posts about it on their FB pages and will not respond to e-mails regarding the issue. These are guys that post up on FB to spray about an ascent within minutes of it taking place. Their silence leads me to believe that they are laying low and just hoping that this issues goes away. I think that shows a lack willingness to take accountability for their actions.
clinker

Trad climber
California
Oct 20, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
when a tree falls in...My mythos sometimes make a farting noise. Please let Sportiva know. Imbeciles! The money spent on sponsership should be going to education and design improvements.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 20, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
Having been a loyal customer of LaSportiva since the 80s, i wanted to commend you on stellar and what i consider to be the best made shoes in climbing.!!


That being said, a recent event has forced me to write this letter. It seems two of your sponsored "ambassadors" , Joe Kidner and Ethan pringle decided to take it upon themselves to remove two old growth junipers from the face of a Tahoe crag to gain access to climbs.
This was a very poor decision on their part, and even worse they now cower from their deed instead of answering the many threads on forums about this incident. They did indeed violate a few of title 36 code of federal regulations in cutting those live trees down and as such are under investigation by USFS law enforcement officers in the Lake Tahoe basin management unit.

Having read some of their comments before deleting them, i can say without a doubt, that these two should be expelled from your team of "ambassadors" - even their "spray" about climbs is HIDEOUS. They have acted like the exact opposite of "land and resource stewards" and instead have acted like vandals and ego driven idiots. In short,, the OPPOSITE of what i imagine your companies desire for them is.


Thank you again for the MARVELOUS products youve created for our game.

Sincerely ,
Ron Anderson

ron9711@ gmail.com
Tan Slacks

climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 20, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
Joe speaks


"MY ACTIONS, MY RESPONSIBILITY, AND MY MISTAKE


When I was a little kid I was always rambunctious and running around the neighborhood. My dad used to always say, “Ok buddy, you are gonna learn the hard way”. Whether I was leaving the hose on and flooding the yard, eating too much candy, sneaking out and getting caught or constantly missing the bus… I learned the hard way. The Fall of 2013 is surely another one of these moments with a healthy dose of remorse and a painful lesson learned.


I have been putting up routes for over 6 years now. My mentors have included famous climbers and people from areas I frequently climb at. Putting up a new route is a creative process, which is why I love it. But like any creative process, there are many decisions to be made that influence the final outcome. Not all of those decisions are justifiable and not all are correct. My recent decision while new-routing has offered me one of the most intense learning experiences I have ever known.

To make a long story short, I was recently informed that I had done something wrong last month while establishing new routes at an underground crag in the Tahoe region of California. I cut down two trees. Not just any trees, either. Junipers.

I’d like to try to address and speak about the specifics of my actions, but in doing so, I want to make no mistake that this was a regrettable error on my part. I am deeply apologetic about what I did. I was wrong. I F’d up. And I’m very sorry. Now, I’m using my blog, my voice and my position in the climbing community to bring awareness to an important issue of route development in order to prevent people who may be as ignorant as I once was from doing this in the future.

Last July, my friends showed me a new cliff that utterly blew my mind. We climbed various warm-ups, and then jumped on “Tree Beard,” one of the best 5.12c’s I have ever done in my life. The route begins by climbing up a giant tree to reach the rock. I thought this was awesome as it immediately made for interesting experience. You clip fixed gear on its limbs while scampering up through the branches to reach the start of the rock climbing. Ultimately, you stand on the tip-top of the tree and transfer to the rock and continue up the wall.

Anyway, the climbing was really great, and I saw potential for other amazing routes on this granite wall. I come from New Hampshire and cut my teeth at Rumney, so I have an affinity for granite climbing and know how special they are.

I got in touch with Chris Doyle, a local climber who has established routes here. Chris, obviously is stoked and enthusiastic about this wall. Chris and I exchanged Facebook messages about the possibility for me to put up a route or two on this wall. Chris was supportive of that effort, and he even generously offered me one of his own projects to try as well. That felt really good, and having the green light from a local climber great.

This wall is one of the best USA crags, no doubt. I couldn’t stop thinking about the climbing here and how inspiring it was. About three weeks ago, I finally got the chance to establish a new route here.

I went out alone one day and made my way to the top of the wall—an extremely terrifying experience, to be honest. Putting up a new route is not just a lot of work, but risky in these ways that most climbers don’t normally think about. I rapped down, worked for hours and lowered to the ground.

I lowered through a tree that was blocking the start of a route. I pushed my way through the tree and got down to the ground. The tree was about 10 feet tall and 10 inches thick. A neighboring tree (below the route next to this) was smaller, dead, and in the same predicament.

My main goal when it comes to putting up a new route is: Will this climb be something high-quality, something safe and something that climbers will enjoy? I try to make decisions that answer those questions as best as possible.

This tree I lowered through was in a dangerous spot due to the fact that there was a difficult part on this route near the ground. Essentially, a fall from this lower section might have left a future climber injured: stabbed by tree limbs or worse. This was a serious concern of mine. I left the cliff thinking about that tree, not sure what to do.

I returned a week later with my friend of over 15 years Ethan Pringle, a local California climber. As Ethan and his girlfriend were warming up, I thought more about the tree making hazardous the start of this new route. Ethan didn’t know I was going to cut the Juniper down and wasn’t included in my decision or action. I decided to take the initiative and make the climb safe for the future climbers. As the developer of this route, I wanted to leave behind a resource for everybody, something that my climber folk could enjoy and not hurt themselves on. I spent about ten minutes and sawed them down.

That day was extremely fun. I got to climb with my old buddy. We tried the new project. We laughed and saw new potential along this amazing wall. We were stoked.

Ethan returned to the crag shortly thereafter and did the first ascent of my route (I don’t often red-tag projects). I was proud of him. Ethan said it was one of the best routes he had done in his life. This was satisfying to hear. It’s the greatest compliment that any route developer can receive.

Later that week, I was at Mount Clark with my friends. I received a message from Chris Doyle. I opened it giddily, thinking it would be some exciting news about more route development at this Tahoe-area cliff. Unfortunately, his message was a shocking note of concern over my tree removal.

I lost my breath. I felt faint. I responded immediately. Chris informed me that this was a precious, respected tree: a juniper, perhaps very old. Junipers are some of the most respected trees and they can survive for a very long time, upwards of a thousand years.

Hearing this I nearly died. I had no clue and I felt completely awful. I had really F—d up.

What followed—and perhaps rightly so—was a lot of angst and anger directed toward me—through climbing forums, through Instagram, and other social media channels. My phone number was posted publicly, and I received some heinous calls, threats and other messages of hate.

I understand that I am a high-profile sponsored climber, and so even though I am deeply embarrassed and ashamed from my actions, I also understand this reaction even if a lot of the outcry is made worse simply by my role in the climbing community.

My only hope now is that I can use my position, blog and voice to bring to light this issue of route development ethics, whether they are “grey” (like cleaning rock) or just downright wrong, like cutting down a precious tree. I hope that people who read this can share this message with people in the community and perhaps share it in a positive way.

This whole event has really hit me emotionally. I’ve been thinking long and hard about it lately and feel broken.

Dean Potter told me recently, ‘the Juniper will be happy to know you learned a major lesson … We are nature too, Joe, and everything is connected.”

It’s true. It’s kind of funny, but I also thought about that Dr. Seuss book, the Lorax. In it, the Once-ler cuts down all the trees, and there’s only the Lorax there to “speak for the trees.” The book ends with the word: “unless.” Meaning, unless someone says something and cares about the situation, then the situation won’t improve.

So, I hope this blog can be my version of “unless.” My attempt to make this wrong right is… speak to local climbers, land managers, and even a botanist friend for suggestions.

Again, I have learned something from this and I am extremely sorry for my actions. I hope that I have relayed that my heart was in the right place, but my actions were not correct. I hope that this message offers some pause and reflection for the future generations of climbers and route developers so that they don’t have to “learn the hard way” like me.

Thanks to the Tahoe climbing community, especially, and I look forward to climbing and hanging with you individually on a personal friendly level in the future."

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 20, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
Wow, even this "apology" comes off as spray. No offer of redress, just me, me, me. Talk about a culture of entitlement.
rnevius

Trad climber
The Range of Light
Oct 20, 2013 - 02:18pm PT
A neighboring tree (below the route next to this) was smaller, dead, and in the same predicament.

This tree I lowered through was in a dangerous spot due to the fact that there was a difficult part on this route near the ground.

Dead...but still green?

Damn tree choosing to be in a "dangerous spot." How dare it grow in the way of a climb?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 20, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
Did you chip those boulders in New England with crowbar and hammer?

DMT
eKat

Trad climber
Less than a second shy of 49 minutes
Oct 20, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
Holy _ _ _ _ !

Is this guy REALLY as arrogant as that poorly written BlogEntry makes him seem?

?

GOOD GRIEF!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 20, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
Didn't know it was a juniper?

Not very credible...

DMT
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 20, 2013 - 02:22pm PT
We arent talking rocket scientists here i reckin.. CANT even see when a tree is ALIVE and GREEN.. They shouldnt let him in the woods at all lol! His sponsors need to move him back to gym route "setting"..
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 20, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
Our savior Jesus Christ taught forgiveness. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

Although actions speak louder than words. Hope to see Joe involved in more community service/restoration projects in the near future... mandatory or otherwise.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 20, 2013 - 02:31pm PT
when in his apology he lies loudly, forgivness gets a wee diminished.

I used to use that qualifier often when interviewing folks in the woods. If the confessed in a upfront manner, due consideration was given. If they tried to diminish their act by a wee fib,,,i wrote them a hard copy mandatory appearance ticket.


Perhaps a month or so of tree planting come spring will truly enlighten them..
clinker

Trad climber
California
Oct 20, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
when faced with the reality of having a very small dick, you may have to place it on the bent trunk of an old juniper and someone else step on it for you.
geo_nutt

Gym climber
the big bang
Oct 20, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
Wow internet soap opera at its finist. Take that days of my lives.

I have to admit I feel sorry for the guy. We as a society quickly like to prop people up and just as quickly take them down. How does that make us any better? Anyways the junipers, while not that specific one, will long out live us as a species and will probably have the last laugh.
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 20, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
I remember the millions of people every day who work so hard to bring some good to the world.
And I remember the amount of destruction we bring to this world every day.

I imagine the 100s of winters this tree stood there strong against all odds only to be cut down so some POS could get his stoke and a photo.

I remember what the climbing world used to mean to me and how I used to read the most intelligent commentary written by the most amazing minds at the back of American Alpine Journals.

And then I realize how the climbing community has jumped the shark in utterly every way and it's nothing more than a bunch of as#@&%es cleaning, bolting and spraying every cliff, boulder and choss heap in creation.
Then I think GFYS

eKat had a great post too!

Joe's apology reads like spray to me. It reminds me of political statements, corporate earnings presentations and marketing BS. After reading it, I like him even less. He sounds like a total self-involved douche and I cannot imagine spending a day climbing with him. It makes me sad that he makes a living representing the climbing community.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 20, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
I come from New Hampshire and cut my teeth at Rumney, so I have an affinity for granite climbing and know how special they are.

Rumney is schist, not granite.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 20, 2013 - 02:44pm PT
Anyways the junipers, while not that specific one, will long out live us as a species and will probably have the last laugh.

1) You clearly don't understand the issue.
2) Junipers don't laugh.



Brandon is right. I am always disappointed when folks call Rumney "granite"... especially when comparing it to Sierra "granite."
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 20, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
Just to set the record straight. . . my comment was about the tree cuttin' spray master, NOT RileyRad!

Sorry! Did not mean to imply otherwise. Was not trying to rip on Riley. I thought both you and Riley had great points! I agree with you both 100%! I'll edit my post to prevent others from misunderstanding my meaning!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 20, 2013 - 02:47pm PT
The dood cant even discern a LIVE tree from a dead one. Im betting he wears slippers as to avoid the confusing shoe lace tying..
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Oct 20, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
Didn't know it was a juniper?
Sure enough.
Fits with the rest of his actions.

So is Ethan off the hook on this one?
After a careful re-reading, I don't think so.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 20, 2013 - 02:51pm PT
Wonder about the HT.. There HAD to be a SAW present there that day ...
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Oct 20, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
Taking responsibility for this act is a step in the right direction.
Some tangible proof of sincerity maybe next. Community service comes to mind.


This individual has done irreparable damage to a promising career in a highly competitive field.
He has broken federal and possibly local laws and will no doubt be contacted by authorities.
He has lost all trust and credibility in the climbing community.

While I personally find his actions beyond comprehension and incredibly stupid, I try to keep it in perspective.
He will be paying for this stupid action for a long, long time.

Keep in mind everyone makes mistakes.


HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Oct 20, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
He will be paying for this stupid action for a long, long time.
yes
the convergence with the Goblin Valley Destructors is striking.
canyoncat

Social climber
SoCal
Oct 20, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
It's like he means to apologize, but he's just too full of himself to understand how he undermines his apology. He implies that he's such an important climber that talking about his screw up is sufficient to fix things?

I don't know, but it sounds to me like he still seems to think his mistake was cutting down junipers, not cutting down trees for his convenience in general?

Also he makes it sound like it was during his second trip that he was "thinking" about the tree and got the sudden inspiration to make things safe, but I missed the part where he just happened to carry a saw with him???

GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 20, 2013 - 02:56pm PT
KILL THE PIG!

SPILL ITS BLOOD!
geo_nutt

Gym climber
the big bang
Oct 20, 2013 - 02:56pm PT
Mchrist

I understand the issue much more then you think. No junipers don't laugh but people do. And this issue is about selfishness on both sides. The juniper can give a crap less about you or me they don't frackin think. People on the other hand do in some cases they may want that juniper being where it is so they can have their moment in nature take a picture of it and post it on Facebook. Or in your case they want someone to cut down that juniper so they can boast about how assume they are for knowing better on the internet. It is crazy how we as a society will use a poor mistake by one person to show what a better person we are when in reality we are just covering up for their own infalibilities. See I'm doing right now. As I said better then days of our lives
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 20, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 20, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
Or in your case they want someone to cut down that juniper so they can boast about how assume they are for knowing better on the internet.

You are clueless.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Oct 20, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
I dont give a schist about how hard this guy climbs but I won't take is actions for granite.
rnevius

Trad climber
The Range of Light
Oct 20, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
His post didn't come across as remorseful. Rather, it seems he got scared and is trying to save face.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 20, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
I let nutter's comment about my ASSUMENESS slide... I figured he may be ESL. He's still clueless, regardless.
doughnutnational

Gym climber
its nice here in the spring
Oct 20, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
The response shares disturbing similarities to the "scout masters" who toppled the rock to protect lives.
geo_nutt

Gym climber
the big bang
Oct 20, 2013 - 03:27pm PT
Name calling - classy.

I'll follow it up with this - is mchrist having an affair with Erica Kane??? Find out tomorrow as supertopo deliberates!

Edit. Again pointing out grammar errors and phone misspellings to show how much better you are then (or is it than) others - wow you are so much better than (then) me.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 20, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
I figured you were clueless. Didn't realize you were a fuking idiot.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Oct 20, 2013 - 03:31pm PT
Erica Kane was on All My Childern. Geez!
geo_nutt

Gym climber
the big bang
Oct 20, 2013 - 03:31pm PT
Again name calling. Classy.
geo_nutt

Gym climber
the big bang
Oct 20, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
I cry a tear.
all in jim

climber
Oct 20, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
So Ethan didn't cut any trees down.

It's a good thing the supertopo detectives launched a campaign against his livelihood and character, just in case.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 20, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
Beg to differ Jim. Ethane was there, he obviously saw a saw as part of the gear they took in. He somewhat condoned the action without stopping it himself. It was about them and the "team"..One may have done the cutting,, but a saw was there. Would you not ask a visiting climber what he planned to do with a SAW,, heading to one of your secret crags?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Oct 20, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
Ron ^^^^
Collaborators share the guilt, even if silent.
The Larry

climber
Moab, UT
Oct 20, 2013 - 03:47pm PT
Nothing ruins an apology more than an excuse.

Edit: at least he came forward and admitted it. Kudos for that.
all in jim

climber
Oct 20, 2013 - 03:47pm PT
^^^^^

Thanks for making my point with the continued conjecture.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 20, 2013 - 03:50pm PT
Credit: Ron Anderson


a "warrior" tree^^^^^ growing against all odds. These doods are special in every way. No matter the specie. The represent the ULTIMATE of defiance imo..;-)
briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
Oct 20, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
I've never seen so much spray in an "apology"
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 20, 2013 - 03:53pm PT
So, where is this crag? Looks excellent!

Oh, that's right, locals (or visiting sponsored climbers) only.

Judging by the rock, I have a general idea.
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 20, 2013 - 03:55pm PT
Hearing this I nearly died. I had no clue and I felt completely awful.

No clue? Did not know that cutting down a live tree was wrong? I call BS.

Joe is fortunate enough to spend the majority of his life in the outdoors. He visits wild and amazing places on a regular basis and has done so for years. IMHO there is NO WAY he did not know that the tree was alive and that cutting it down was wrong. With that in mind, he flat out lied in his "apology." That tells me a lot about his character. Personally, I find it hard to forgive someone that doesn't even honestly admit their guilt.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 20, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
What?

Let's go climbing!!!! Er..... NEED A CHISEL OVER HERE!
Let's go climbing!!!! Er..... NEED A CHISEL OVER HERE!
Credit: Dingus Milktoast

DMT
bergbryce

Mountain climber
California
Oct 20, 2013 - 04:04pm PT
Well, that's a far cry from Abe Lincoln's humble admission.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 20, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
Dingus,, if youve ever used a misery whip,, yu know what those guys went through to do that pie cut!
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Oct 20, 2013 - 04:10pm PT
Wow. So Lame to do this ....

I do hope all sponsorship is revoked.

Never let these Fu#ks go to Suicide, or we might be missing a tree.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 20, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
wonder if he ever goes to the GUNKS? They could use a severe trimming there lol!
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 20, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
I don't think all had to be lost yet for the kid.
People are mostly fair.

If I was him I world offer 500 hours worth of time working on habitat reconstruction.
Works out to about 15 hours a day 7 days a week for 5 weeks.
Essentially a drop in the bucket of what many professionals give all over the world.

He could even blog about the work he is doing and be a really incredible example of honor to his sponsers.

That would be awesome. It would show that he takes responsibility for his actions and is willing to step-up to make it right. However, I doubt that will happen. He doesn't come across as that kind of a person in his writing. It doesn't seem like he is sorry, just sorry he got caught. I could be 100% wrong, but my guess is that as soon as this thread and the discussion on social media stops, Joe will go back to business as usual.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 20, 2013 - 04:16pm PT
wonder if he ever goes to the GUNKS?

He's from NH, so I'm sure he has climbed on the sweet granite that the Gunks has to offer.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 20, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
are there stumps there with straight cross cuts and a little barber chair action on the lean down?
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Oct 20, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
I think he was at least trying. It's a true apology, and maybe a good start toward avoiding such "total-lack-of-thinking" choices in the future.

But was this really necessary:



I understand that I am a high-profile sponsored climber...


Are you really high-profile? If so, then here's one more thing to think about (and maybe learn from). Warren Harding was high-profile too. And when faced with a similar choice on the Leaning Tower, he left the "evil tree" intact.

Many or most of the posters here have since climbed past that tree, fearing as they did a splinter enema. This danger has since become a great tradition, a source of stories.

I've never met you Joe, and probably never will. I think that I am a lot older than you, so let me patronize you with a word of advice: What you've climbed in the past or will climb in the future doesn't matter. It's all quite forgettable. On the other hand, how you treat other people and things will ultimately matter much, much more.

I've met lots of "high profile" climbers over the years. And for the reasons described above, I've never forgotten Ron Kauk, who I met 20 years ago and have seen a few times since. He's a great climber. But I only remember some of his climbs and achievements.

What I really recall about Ron is how he treated me, an inexperienced little piss-ant, and how I've seen him treat other people and things. He's humble, kind and concerned, and I've never forgotten my encounters with him.

Are you that way Joe?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 20, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
"splinter enema" BUUWAAAHHAHAHAAHAA!


Hey JOE,, i have a much shorter advisory: One awwwshyt erasses ten thousand attaboys...


the real question here is,, are those that buy the apology SNAGS? (sensitive new aged guys)


Ive investigated i dont know how many of these very incidents. And i wrote hard copies to just about everyone. They knew what they were doing, they knew it was illegal and the did it anyhow. Then Joe tries to further insult the intelligence of the masses by saying one of the trees was dead.
Im in hopes the LEO at the LTBMU issues them a nice fine, or a mandatory appearence all the way down in Sacto. He told me they no longer have a FED court at SLT.

cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 20, 2013 - 04:27pm PT
He's from NH, so I'm sure he has climbed on the sweet granite that the Gunks has to offer.

Let's just start calling all rock granite. Easier that way.

;-)
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Oct 20, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
Good point.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Oct 20, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
All trees are now officially junipers, too.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 20, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
personally,, i fail to see the use for DIGGER pines. I once saw someone get biffed by a GREEN cone.. Horrendous wounds to the head face and shoulder.

justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 20, 2013 - 04:36pm PT
Well, I guess you have to give him credit for finally responding and apologizing, although I agree with Canyoncat that he's still kinda not getting it. It's good that he put in a word about Ethan's role. Joe strikes me as immature and evidently just ignorant. Is he quite young? Doesn't know what a juniper is??? Little tree sure doesn't look dead in the pre-photo BTW so I call BS on that.

Joe:
As the developer of this route, I wanted to leave behind a resource for everybody,

EVERYBODY would include EVERYBODY... hikers, bikers, the great-grandchildren of those hikers, etc... not just "me-now" sport climbers.

My main goal when it comes to putting up a new route is: Will this climb be something high-quality, something safe and something that climbers will enjoy? I try to make decisions that answer those questions as best as possible.

... and when the answer to that question was "no"... this route should have never been put up.

I DO think the sponsors should be notified. No one has bad-mouthed them.. just listed the ones that employ Joe. Sponsored climbers obviously feel pressure to perform. It's the expectation of new route development and fancy photos that nurtures the mentality behind these types of fiascoes. It seems to be happening more and more lately and the gear companies have a responsibility IMO.

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 20, 2013 - 04:37pm PT
Public caning orta do it.

DMT
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Oct 20, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
Hey Dingus, remind me, what did you do with the "Forefathers" junipers near the base of the Forefathers Wall?
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 20, 2013 - 04:42pm PT
We all have skeletons in our closet and done something stupid in the hills. He who is without sin can beat their chest online.

I wish I lived so tightly wrapped around dogma and principles that the world was black and white. Seems like an easy way to go about business.
BurntToast

climber
CA
Oct 20, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
Anyone know what the applicable laws regulating unauthorized tree cutting are in this area?

Fines? Possible jail time? Plea bargain for public service?

Seems like a slam dunk case given the public admission of guilt.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 20, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
title 36 CFR 261.~~ at least two different sub sections can apply. This is a FED misdemeanor, and the fines can vary from region to region. 175.00 being a minimal basic fine on average...No jail time although it does create a "record" of minor offense. Unlikely any other restitution for title 36 offenses. Most of those fall under title 18 or further.

If its a mandatory appearence in the LTBMU, then all is up to the Fed Dist judge.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 20, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
In a perfect world these two and the two goblin topplers would appear before the same magistrate at the same time and be assigned as cell mates for a month or so, then tasked together for 500 hours or so of trash picking.

It will be interesting to watch the sponsors reactions.

Collectively we WILL be paying attention.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 20, 2013 - 04:58pm PT
I gave them a big hug every time I passes them, paid my reapects. :)

Seriously I did ! I'm a real tree hugger in the flesh.

DMT
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 20, 2013 - 05:01pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#314782


i only on occasion,, hugged a tree or two..I cut down far more than i hugged.
rnevius

Trad climber
The Range of Light
Oct 20, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
I always find it weird that a fine is used as retribution for things like this. If only consequences were crafted as if they had been directly influenced by the wrongdoing that had been committed. Instead, let's hit him/them with an arbitrary fine and call things good and dandy.
BurntToast

climber
CA
Oct 20, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
Thanks,

https://fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fsbdev3_054750.pdf

Sec. 261.6 Timber and other forest products.

The following are prohibited:
(a) Cutting or otherwise damaging any timber, tree, or other forest
product, except as authorized by a special-use authorization, timber
sale contract, or Federal law or regulation.

Sec. 261.1b Penalty.

Any violation of the prohibitions of this part (261) shall be
punished by a fine of not more than $500 or imprisonment for not more
than six months or both pursuant to title 16 U.S.C., section 551,
unless otherwise provided

$175 to $500 seems way to low to me.

Home owners can apparently be fined several tens of thousands of dollars and/or serve jail time for tree cutting to improve their view:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-03-12-treecutting_N.htm
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 20, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
there is some discretion in some violations left to the originating Officers.
Normally a mandatory appearance means one of two things: A) the issuing officer felt the circumstances warranted it- that it went beyond a standard violation, or B) the nature of the violation calls for a mandatory by FED court suggestion. At least thats the way it was when i was in the game.
phylp

Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
Oct 20, 2013 - 08:09pm PT
I'm just glad there has been a first person account of this incident.

Now people can decide how they want to respond, based on facts presented by Joe Kinder himself.

There have been a lot of well thought-out comments from posters to this thread. This comment echoed my own views on the subject:

Time for sponsors to stop pouring resources into more "radness" and start investing in education about the natural world we share. Honestly, who gives a fuk about another 5.14a?

Or another 15a for that matter? Personally I don't pay any attention to what climbers a particular company sponsors. It's only the quality of the product that matters to me. But I certainly pay attention when climbers behave badly and threaten the natural environment that we love and as a consequence and secondarily, also threaten our access to the rock.
Willoughby

Social climber
Truckee, CA
Oct 20, 2013 - 08:48pm PT
wonder if he ever goes to the GUNKS? They could use a severe trimming there lol!

I was just thinking we need to send them in to cut a swath in the Poison Oak before next month's gangbang at Patterson Bluff

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2213322/Leversee-Offwidth-near-Balch-Park
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Oct 20, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
Per Mr. Kinder:

To make a long story short, I was recently informed that I had done something wrong last month while establishing new routes at an underground crag in the Tahoe region of California. I cut down two trees. Not just any trees, either. Junipers.

So he had no thought that the act might be wrong prior to cutting down the trees? What a narcissist. Reminds me of a time a friend and I had to stop some douche bag from taking his chainsaw to some (live) trees in a sierra campground for firewood.

He talked to locals about the crag before starting putting up routes but did not discuss cutting down the trees prior to the act?

Suggested route names: Kinder's Folly 1 & 2
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Oct 20, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
And from the perfectly selfish point of view.
This transgression is one more blight upon climbers' public image.
In fairness, I'm pretty certain the government land managers won't tar us all with the same brush.

It appears that we as a climbing community have some environmental outreach to do. We've hassled about bolts, trail cutting, use trails, marking works in progress, even dogs at the crag. And a dozen other things we do to the "wilderness" in our pursuits.
I never thought we'd have to be concerned with ancient Junipers. Had always thought their value was obvious and THEY would be sacrosanct.
mea culpa
TheMaster

climber
Oct 20, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
Idiot climbers cutting down trees and more self-righteous idiot climbers ranting on line about how horrible an act it was. You are all idiots.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 20, 2013 - 09:51pm PT
idiots complaining about idiots complaining about idiots.??
Lurking Fear

Boulder climber
Bishop, California
Oct 20, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
I think GDavis says it best. We've all done stupid things in the mountains. Joe did a stupid thing and he'll probably get dumped by all his sponsors. That a big deal when you've never really paid for gear and shoes, and don't really work.
Back in the 80s at the Knobby Wall in Yosemite, some high profile climbers, including one posting on this thread, cut down a bay tree to reveal a V4 boulder problem. We can't tolerate bad behavior in the mountains, but we don't need to crucify the perpetrator either.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 20, 2013 - 09:59pm PT
Politicians and evangelists have set the standard.....NOBODY apologizes until they are caught....and some do it better than others.
Dapper Dan

Trad climber
Menlo Park
Oct 20, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
Well said Lurking Fear / GDavis.

Kinder blew it , he will suffer the consequences.

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone...."

John Chapter 8 verse 7 .

ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 20, 2013 - 10:59pm PT
I think GDavis says it best. We've all done stupid things in the mountains. Joe did a stupid thing and he'll probably get dumped by all his sponsors. That a big deal when you've never really paid for gear and shoes, and don't really work.
Back in the 80s at the Knobby Wall in Yosemite, some high profile climbers, including one posting on this thread, cut down a bay tree to reveal a V4 boulder problem. We can't tolerate bad behavior in the mountains, but we don't need to crucify the perpetrator either.

Yes, we have all done stupid things. Yes, forgiveness and understanding are great things. So is being held accountable.

I have a question for all of you that are preaching for tolerance and moving on: what should be the consequences? Joe is, according to his website, one of the most influential climbers in the world today. Shouldn't we expect just a little more from him than this? Should his apology, riddled with 1/2 truths and spray, be enough? Should we, as a community give folks who pull this sh#t a free pass as long as they just plead ignorance?

I don't want to lynch the guy. I just feel that there is more damage control than true remorse in his apology and think that all this talk of forgiveness is way premature.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA/Joshua Tree
Oct 20, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
So in a nutshell from his "apology":

He's a rad climber who got permission from a Tahoe crag developer to use his vision and experience to put up a new route and thought nothing of chopping down an old growth tree cause it was in the way of where he wanted his bold new rad route to start. So he just happened to have a hacksaw handy and chop it down while his friend Ethan Pringle - a California climber he notes - stood by and watched but had nothing to do with it. So it was okay. Cause the tree could have hurt someone trying to do the route he envisioned. Tree was down, they had a great time climbing the new route. Problem solved, now on to the next crag.

Then he left and got a call from the area developer and was SHOCKED and HEARTBROKEN that people were unhappy with the fact he chopped down a tree instead of fawning over his brilliant new line. And it wasn't just a tree, it was a JUNIPER! That those ancient roots that intertwined through the rock weren't enough to tell him it was an old tree that had weathered centuries at the base of that rock. Oh woe is him...he was just trying to make a bold, SAFE new route for climbers for years to come and he's so sorry a JUNIPER paid the price. Cause again, new routing is an art and the tree was in the way of some major brilliance of one of the best new routes in the USA.

But ultimately it's okay cause his buddy Dean Potter told him the fallen tree is fine with it and having a good laugh about it now cause we're all one with nature.

Unbelievable.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 20, 2013 - 11:08pm PT
I give him the benefit of the doubt and believe that he is truly sorry, even if he is incapable of expressing it to everyone's satisfaction. Is that enough? I don't think so, but who am I to decide?

We have laws that protect natural resources. Sounds like the fine could be as high as $500. Is that enough? I don't think so, but who am I to decide?

Some suggested community service, preferably restoration of some sort. They ALWAYS need folks to help pull invasive species, clean up trash in the wilderness (especially after the shut down, the place is a fuking mess), etc. Is that enough? I don't think so, but who am I to decide?

I'd like to see him write a 5 page report (single spaced, 10 pt font, regular margins, figures don't count) and/or public presentation on the natural history and/or ecology of every area he visits. His grade would determine how much gear/$ he gets... -10 pts for every time he mentions how rad he or his lines are... but who am I to decide.
davej

Boulder climber
Oct 20, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
Seriously people? How many tons of CO2 have you added to the atmosphere driving your SUV or truck to the crag on roads cut through forests? Every one of us has knowingly contributed to the demise of our planet in many, many ways that are much more serious than cutting down two small trees.

Why don't you all deal with your suppressed anger issues in private rather than using the anonymity of the internet to try to ruin someone's life for no good reason. This sort of thread makes me embarrassed to call myself a climber.
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 20, 2013 - 11:11pm PT
This sort of thread makes me embarrassed to call myself a climber.

Your post is the thing you should be embarrassed about.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Oct 20, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
This sort of thread makes me embarrassed to call myself a climber.

Maybe yer not...
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Oct 20, 2013 - 11:14pm PT
Hey look, it's davej... a brand new user! Welcome davej, we all value your astounding insight.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA/Joshua Tree
Oct 20, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
"rather than using the anonymity of the internet"

Kind of like you first time poster davej with no signature or location where you're from?

I smell an influx of davej's to this thread for damage control on this.

Also, don't go telling us we're as#@&%es for driving our cars to crags and we're all at fault when your friend flies all over the world climbing and driving to new, unknown crags on his sponsor's dime. Find another course of discussion cause the carbon footprint isn't going to fly on this topic.

Not here at least.
permastoke

Trad climber
Camp 4, California
Oct 20, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
http://www.adventure-journal.com/2013/10/professional-climber-cuts-down-juniper-trees-to-enable-new-route/
mwatsonphoto

Trad climber
los angeles, ca
Oct 20, 2013 - 11:53pm PT
^^^ Looks a lot like the comments on made on his site after his "apology".

I don't know this guy (Joe) and don't want too - hadn't heard of him before this and hope to never hear of him after this.

However, I simply cannot believe he didn't know this was wrong and his (and his friends?) attempts to minimize his actions are shameful. Perhaps he should also be informed that he shouldn't sh!t on the trail, start random fires, litter, etc... as it would appear he is unaware of LNT/stewardship/conservation.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA/Joshua Tree
Oct 21, 2013 - 12:05am PT
Thanks Riley.

But it's ALL TRUE. Taken from his own words. *face palm*

I can't believe he posted that without someone professional reading it first and telling him to keep it short and sweet, contrite and concise.

All he needed to do was say "I screwed up big time and ask for your forgiveness and will do what I can to make this wrong a right. I will work through my sponsors to be a better conservator of the land and spread the message that nature is at the core of all we do in climbing. And from now on I will focus my efforts on that as I move forward in this sport that we all love so much." End of story.

Literally, that's all he had to do.

Not some drawn out narcissistic explanation. Just admit you were wrong, take your lumps, don't go into detail and don't pretend to be a victim AT ALL in any of this.

Had he done that, this would go away a lot faster. But his long winded and self aggrandizing response just added fuel to the fire.

Does this guy not have a rep...or friends in the media who are media trained and savvy?

That drawn out blog post was the worst thing he could have done.
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Oct 21, 2013 - 12:08am PT
BTW, Joe appears to heavily moderate the comments on his blog. I submitted a comment asking for some further explanation on parts of his apology and he deleted the post. I guess I should not be surprised.
Salamanizer

Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
Oct 21, 2013 - 12:23am PT
So, where's this crag??? Looks like Squaw.

I would never cut down a tree that looked that cool, no matter what kind or how old it was. Now that it's down it would make a fine bow. That tree was struck by lightning, possibly more than once. A sacred bow for sure.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 21, 2013 - 12:29am PT
How many tons of CO2 have you added to the atmosphere driving your SUV or truck to the crag

Yeah we're all guilty of killing the planet....thing is.. 50 billion cars roaming the earth didn't kill the junipers, one ignorant kid with a hacksaw did.

I don't actually feel that Joe's regret is insincere. I suspect he'll ever make such a huge mistake again. He's immature. He should have had a friend or PR person edit that statement to remove the quasi-spray and the untruth before he posted it. I'm interested to see if he tries to make restitution in some way or if he just waits for the law and his sponsors to crack the whip.

Again, it's just hard to believe any professional who climbs outdoors could be so clueless about basic stewardship stuff. Access and impact issues are not exactly a big secret in the climbing community.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA/Joshua Tree
Oct 21, 2013 - 12:32am PT
"He's immature" and "one ignorant kid with a hacksaw did"

Skip - he's 29-years-old!

Joe is not a child or even a clueless teen.
BurntToast

climber
CA
Oct 21, 2013 - 12:32am PT

Sec. 261.6 Timber and other forest products.

The following are prohibited:
(a) Cutting or otherwise damaging any timber, tree, or other forest
product, except as authorized by a special-use authorization, timber
sale contract, or Federal law or regulation.

Sec. 261.1b Penalty.

Any violation of the prohibitions of this part (261) shall be
punished by a fine of not more than $500 or imprisonment for not more
than six months or both pursuant to title 16 U.S.C., section 551,
unless otherwise provided

Interestingly, the same law (Title 36, section 261.x) seems to apply to bolting and chipping:

Sec. 261.9 Property.
The following are prohibited:
(a) Damaging any natural feature or other property of the United
States.

https://fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fsbdev3_054750.pdf
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 21, 2013 - 12:34am PT
Yikes Beth..

He acts and writes like a kid.

So age is not an excuse. Thought I saw his age at 21 somewhere.. must have misread it.

I stand by "immature" though. ;)

MisterE

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 12:43am PT
Well written on both posts, Beth - you really nailed it.

My BS meter was going off right away on the blog - he cares more about the climb than his impact on the surrounding environs.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Oct 21, 2013 - 12:45am PT
Hey look, it's davej... a brand new user! Welcome davej, we all value your astounding insight.


lol, zactly


Spot on Beth.


johntp

Trad climber
socal
Oct 21, 2013 - 12:52am PT
That drawn out blog post was the worst thing he could have done.

I'm glad he put it up. Tells us more about the person behind the act.
bjj

climber
beyond the sun
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:09am PT
He's shown fairly heavily in the Reel Rock 7 segment "La Dura Dura" about Sharma and Ondra's race to be the first to climb one of Chris' projects that would become the world's hardest.

In it, he comes off like a total spray hose, who is obviously very pleased to be seen in the company of (and better yet, close personal pals with) the planet's best climbers even though he himself only occupies the C-squad. He has this dopey smile on his face and constantly says things so we are sure to know him and Chris are BFF's.

Honestly, the actual cutting of the tree itself doesn't change my opinion of him very much. As has been noted, many many prolific climbers over the years have made similar transgressions. I already had my impression of him from the RR7 film, and now the apology letter just cements it.

When you're likable and charming, people will forgive most anything. When you're not, well.... you get the backlash we're now seeing.
cali kat

climber
CA
Oct 21, 2013 - 01:33am PT
Who goes climbing with a saw ready?! What else has he been cutting down?!!
Deekaid

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 02:20am PT
i didn't even read his "apology ". i saw how long it was and knew it was spin
harryhotdog

Social climber
north vancouver, B.C.
Oct 21, 2013 - 02:39am PT
Could someone in the Tahoe area that is familiar with and close to the location of the trees please PM me as the researchers that did the studies on these ancient junipers would like a crosscut sample to ascertain their ages. If it turns out the bigger tree was of a substantial age the story will more likely make it into the mainstream media. The idea behind this is not to persecute the perpetrator who is really only guilty of ignorance. The idea is to use this event to educate all outdoor users about slow growing ancient trees as most people equate size with age and that obviously is not the case all the time.
clinker

Trad climber
California
Oct 21, 2013 - 03:03am PT
This guy Joe should definitely become an organ donor, and cut off a finger right now for saw accident victims . Remember the tree was a juniper, not just a grass hummock. Does anyone know how old the grass hummocks are on the Surprise?

By the way Joe now you will find out who your friends are. The ones who will stick through anything.

Todd Gordon

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
Oct 21, 2013 - 03:35am PT
Tough situation.........A mistake to cut down the tree;.....pretty much everyone agrees with that one. Now what........
I guess Joe and Ethan can give everyone the finger and get on with it.
They tried to explain their mistake and say a heart-felt "I'm sorry.".....but many many people can, won't, don't want to buy into their apology....fair enough.
Personally, I like and appreciate when people fuk up;....and say they are sorry.....I like it a whole hell of alot better than when people fuk up and don't apologize for their mistakes.
Sometimes apologizes work;...sometimes they don't.....I still like to see them and respect the "sorry" part. If you don't acknowledge the apologize or respect the "I am sorry"......I think it encourages people to NOT apologize and say "sorry" in the future;...and just be cold hard-asses.......we have enough cold hard-asses in the world. I don't like the cut tree either;...but I do like the apology and the "sorry" thing;......always have, and always will....I like to hear it, I respect it when people do it, and I encourage people to do so when they f-up.......I try to do the same in my life when I screw up;...and when I do screw up;...I hope I have the sac to say "I'm sorry" and mean it....and I hope my friends accept my apologies..........it's a scary scary world to think that if and when we screw up....our apologizes don't, can't and won't work.........good luck to Joe and Ethan..........
Robert L

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 03:42am PT
Reading the apologist et. al.
And Twitter pity party
Get a sense he's regretting his choices
While some may think it too harsh
Good to hear the community pulling it's own into line
Remember when it took quite some noise to stop PTPP from tossing off El Cap

Don't take it personally Joe
There would be a lot of noise no matter who did it
It's just that those whose claim-to-fame requires so much effort in self-promotion
Are bigger targets
If you'd been like the hundreds of others that climb just as hard as you
But who don't need to Tweet about it
Who have found satisfying jobs and pay for their own shoes
Then you wouldn't need the fans and have to constantly Tweet for the sponsors-teet
And would have likely gotten a lighter pass
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Oct 21, 2013 - 03:56am PT
i get the impression he is sorry too. don't know why everyone is expecting so much. if he sprays all the time why would you expect his apology to come across any different, it's not like he's a different person.
i think this story will make it into one of the major publications like rock and ice or climbing. it would be really cool to see one of his sponsors come out and pay for this space on one of the mags as an educational piece rather than as an ad. in doing so, i think they would garner more support than any ad could do for them.
spin to win
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 21, 2013 - 04:03am PT
Just to be a quirky devil's advocate here

Since forest service allows logging and mining and stuff, I wonder what the USFS would have said if the guys applied for a permit to cut that tree?

I guess you probably have to want to cut a bunch of them to get a pass

Peace

Karl
tr4

climber
Tuolumne Meadows, Ca
Oct 21, 2013 - 04:06am PT
The real reason he wrote that apology was he is a afraid his Sponsors will dump him.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Oct 21, 2013 - 04:26am PT
Since forest service allows logging and mining and stuff, I wonder what the USFS would have said if the guys applied for a permit to cut that tree?

True, true and so what? Possible bad decisions by government bureaucrats justifies bad behavior?

I won't say anything else, I have too many skeletons in my closet and my house is made of glass. I've learned from my mistakes and have repented, hope that Joe can grow up and do the same.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:20am PT
Kinder comes from the north east . We have more trees than you can shake a stick at. It is common practice to prune and cut trees and brush just to get to the base of the cliff. You have to keep on top of it as a lot of that stuff grows back almost as fast as you can trim it. A Hand saw is part of the standard FA rack in the North East. I and hundreds of thousands of others cut trees down, chop them up and put them in our wood stoves. Obviously Kalifornia is an arid climate and the tree situation is different. Comming from the east I compltely understand the logic of cutting the tree down. I certainly would not go somewhere else and do the same stuff I do on my own turf. You have to learn the ethics and practices of the area before you do that kind of stuff. I can see that Kalifornia arm chair critics are quite vicious as well. Another thing to keep in mind when doing FA's out there;)
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:28am PT
Kinder comes from the north east . We have more trees than you can shake a stick at. It is common practice to prune and cut trees and brush just to get to the base of the cliff. You have to keep on top of it as a lot of that stuff grows back almost as fast as you can trim it. A Hand saw is part of the standard FA rack in the North East. I and hundreds of thousands of others cut trees down, chop them up and put them in our wood stoves. Obviously Kalifornia is an arid climate and the tree situation is different. Comming from the east I compltely understand the logic of cutting the tree down. I certainly would not go somewhere else and do the same stuff I do on my own turf. You have to learn the ethics and practices of the area before you do that kind of stuff. I can see that Kalifornia arm chair critics are quite vicious as well. Another thing to keep in mind when doing FA's out there;)

So this was Kinder's first exposure to climbing in the west?

Somehow I don't think so.
gf

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 06:44am PT
I posted a comment on FB that Mr Kinder needs the Canadian euphemistic time in the penalty box plus some significant penance of his own doing regardless of the legal consequences.
IMHO he should consider:

-donate any funds received from gear companies over the past 6 months to the conservation alliance or a similar organization.
-resign from being a sponsored climber, his actions including lieing about the incident as recently as last week show a shocking lack of morality and discernment; qualities any brand has the right to expect, well unless they are selling monster trucks.
-perform significant ecological community service
-engage in some serious self-reflection, his current apology does not take ownership for lieng in correspondence last week.
-I commend mr kinder for his apology but the road to redemption will be hard, lets hope he shows moral leadership.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 21, 2013 - 07:13am PT
you guys and galls are like a pack of Coyotes cross bred with vultures. any sign of weakness and the pack closes in....

Yea kinder comes off as a dumbass stoner but you guys are pretty darn vicious.....
gf

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 07:20am PT
um tradman -what part of my above post comes across as viscous -i see it as pretty fact based and rational....
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 21, 2013 - 07:28am PT
How about the part where you want him to lose his job?
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Oct 21, 2013 - 07:30am PT
I lived in Pennsylvania for twenty years. Put up hundreds of boulder problems.

Not once did I chop down a tree or even a bush.

I may have removed a small limb or two.

I don't buy the it's-okay-in-the-Northeast argument.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Oct 21, 2013 - 07:42am PT
Credit: tradmanclimbs
Credit: tradmanclimbs
Tree huggers are a pain in the ass..
Penseltucky ain't the north east and pebble pinching is not really new routing.
gf

climber
Oct 21, 2013 - 07:46am PT
TRADMAN
With due respect sir, I don't wish Mr Kinder ill, but the reality is that he is in the public domain as the public face of these brands and thus needs to ensure his conduct is aligned with the publicly stated values of most if not all of his sponsors. This is about the two edged sword of living in the public eye.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Oct 21, 2013 - 08:10am PT
He apologized; it was sincere.

Let it go.
tr4

climber
Tuolumne Meadows, Ca
Oct 21, 2013 - 08:14am PT
Agree with GF
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