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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 13, 2013 - 09:34pm PT
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Are you comparing universal healthcare to slavery?
Well, if you put it that way, then: yes.
All "wealth redistribution" (when stripped of all the euphemisms) just IS taking from the "rich" and giving to the "poor."
And it all amounts to less and less responsibility for lifestyle choices. This sort of "leveling of the playing field" is exactly what this nation was designed to NOT do (read Federalist 10). It does mean making the "rich" slaves to the "poor" to one extent or another.
Is it okay for ME to walk into your house and say, "Wow, nice TV you've got there. But you don't 'need' a 60-inch, when most people can't even afford a 42-inch. So, we're going to yard-sale that puppy, and with the proceeds, we're going to get you a 42-inch and subsidize the 'poor' person to help them afford that 42-inch that is beyond them at present."?
No, in that context (which you'll claim is a bad analogy, because a TV is not a 'need' like health care is) it is obvious that what I'm doing is theft plain and simple.
But, wait, why does government get to CALL health care a 'need,' when in fact the 'poor' that we're subsidizing with Obamacare COULD afford health insurance if they made other lifestyle choices? Tell me EXACTLY what demographic Obamacare is 'saving,' and I'll show you a demographic with other, better alternatives... and that without making slaves of the ever-diminishing middle class.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 13, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
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Rights can NOT require the transaction of one's labor for the benefit of another.
That can only be accomplished by a voluntary transaction (trade).
Or, the imposition of Tyranny (slavery)
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Nov 13, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
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Madbolter...I agree...Let the poor die if they can't afford health insurance...
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 13, 2013 - 09:49pm PT
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Cancellations are running 1000 to 1 to signups.
(and no one has actually bought a policy yet)
How's that providing more coverage for anyone?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Nov 13, 2013 - 09:53pm PT
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TGT...You sound like you are gleeful that Americans can't afford health insurance...? That's really sad..
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Nov 13, 2013 - 09:58pm PT
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#32 billion in Foreign economic assistance. So we borrow money and give it to other countries.
Personally, I think we are going to see the most severe recession in the history of the US in the years to come unless we at least attempt to get our debt under control.
Personal wealth is going to take a huge hit. The government is going to run out of people with decent incomes to tax.
Only the rich are going to have access to good health care.
Yep....I am pessimistic.
In fiscal year 2011, the U.S. government allocated the following amounts for aid:
Total economic and military assistance: $49.5 billion
Total military assistance: $17.8 billion
Total economic assistance: $31.7 billion
of which, USAID assistance: $14.1 billion
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Nov 13, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
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I certainly wanted Obamacare to fail.
A government that FORCES the people to buy something, then penalizes them if they don't?
That's not America.
like auto insurance?
First he takes your guns now he wants your cash.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 13, 2013 - 10:25pm PT
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Madbolter...I agree...Let the poor die if they can't afford health insurance...
Oh, right, I forget, EVERYBODY has the RIGHT to live beyond their means, prioritize things other than their basic necessities, and just keep poppin' out more and more kids... and the ONLY "humane" thing "we" can do is just pay and pay and pay...
and pay...
and pay!
Nope, count me out.
It's not right, and TGT is absolutely correct: it is the enslavement of the middle class, and it is tyranny.
And "government can do anything," so we've been told, and that, my friends, is the basis of revolution.
Oh, and there are many different types of revolutions....
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Nov 13, 2013 - 10:29pm PT
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And it all amounts to less and less responsibility for lifestyle choices. This sort of "leveling of the playing field" is exactly what this nation was designed to NOT do (read Federalist 10).
You mean this part: By a faction, I understand a number of citizens, whether amounting to a majority or a minority of the whole, who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion, or of interest, adversed to the rights of other citizens, or to the permanent and aggregate interests of the community.
The idea of putting the aggregate interests of the community on par with personal rights, how very un-American?
or this part:
The apportionment of taxes on the various descriptions of property is an act which seems to require the most exact impartiality; yet there is, perhaps, no legislative act in which greater opportunity and temptation are given to a predominant party to trample on the rules of justice. Every shilling with which they overburden the inferior number, is a shilling saved to their own pockets.
Yes, he does decry leaders who might support an "equal division of property", but you are crying wolf if you think Obamacare is going to redistribute the nation's wealth to equality.
If you are going to challenge us to read them, pick a better one for your argument, but this one was a very interesting read, prescient of the more serious ills of the nation right now.
TE
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Nov 13, 2013 - 10:37pm PT
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it is the enslavement of the middle class, and it is tyranny.
No, it's capitalism.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Nov 13, 2013 - 10:41pm PT
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Wow.
All "wealth redistribution" (when stripped of all the euphemisms) just IS taking from the "rich" and giving to the "poor.
All?
What about the wealth redistribution that takes from the poor and gives to the rich. You know, the redistribution that's going on here and now.
Didn't Jesus same something about that?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 13, 2013 - 10:43pm PT
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You're not talking about taking cash from the poor, are you?
The poor are poor because they don't have any cash.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 13, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
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This isn't about taking from the rich.
All of Barry's crony capitalist contributors aren't effected by this at all!
This is all about destroying the middle class and producing a society of gentrified political elites that rule a dependent and subservient class of obedient worker bees.
(Plenty of RINOS on board with that as well.)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 13, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
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If you are going to challenge us to read them, pick a better one for your argument....
Well, since you read it, you should have come across Hamilton's remedy for majority faction (which is what we now have in this nation). Of course, that's an actual argument, that you have to follow along with, instead of just quickie, out-of-context quotes that literally ignore what Hamilton was arguing in the whole article.
I don't have it in front of me, but I'll quote sections later tonight. The gist is that the only remedy for majority faction is the diversification of interests, and he says that ensuring the disparities among interests is the highest priority of government.
So, the highest priority of government is NOT to ensure that everybody has the same "basic" things. It is to ensure that people naturally end up very, very diverse in their capacities, holdings, wealth, and thereby interests. It is the exactly opposite of "leveling the playing field" as that is meant today.
Oh, crap, here I find myself trying to talk in principled terms again to people that just don't give a rip about principles of government. Waste of my time around here.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Nov 13, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
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The poor are poor because they don't have any cash.
The poor are poor because of the capitalist system. We have a term in this country: the working poor. It disgusts me.
While poverty is often associated with joblessness, a significant proportion of the poor in the US and Canada, but also Italy, Spain, and Ireland are actually employed. The wages the working poor receive are insufficient to provide basic necessities and lead to people making choices between having food on the table or having a table. Largely because they are earning such low wages, the working poor face numerous obstacles that make it difficult for many of them to find and keep a job, save up money, and maintain a sense of self-worth.
Somebody, please!, defend the idea that someone who works for a living should be poor. Unfortunately, there is absolutely no respect for the work ethic in this country.
We want a system in which the worker shall get what he produces and the capitalist shall produce what he gets.
Eugene V. Debs
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 13, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
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Oh, crap, here I find myself trying to talk in principled terms again to people that just don't give a rip about principles of government. Waste of my time around here.
There are a thousand lurkers for every poster.
Help the tyrants expose themselves when you can.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Nov 13, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
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This is all about destroying the middle class and producing a society of gentrified political elites that rule a dependent and subservient class of obedient worker bees.
Spot on! The rich will not be impacted AT ALL by Obamacare. The working class will foot the bill while many will choose to simply not work( or under report income) and take advantage of the subsidies.
A larger percentage of middle class income now will go to healthcare expenses.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Nov 13, 2013 - 11:25pm PT
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No, it's capitalism.
No, it is redistribution of wealth AND capitalism. They all suck.
edit:
This is all about destroying the middle class and producing a society of gentrified political elites that rule a dependent and subservient class of obedient worker bees.
Exactly!!
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Nov 13, 2013 - 11:30pm PT
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The rich will not be impacted AT ALL by Obamacare.
then why are they so afraid of it?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 13, 2013 - 11:30pm PT
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Somebody, please!, defend the idea that someone who works for a living should be poor.
It's easy. You just don't "like" the answer because it "feels" harsh to you.
Some people work hard but just lack the intelligence to do a job that is as valuable as another job. Others work hard and have the basic intelligence, but they lack the risk-mentality needed to be an entrepreneur. Thus, their "hard work" is really "safe work" relatively speaking to an entrepreneur who risks everything to ultimately create jobs (and real wealth). Some "work hard" but in undisciplined fashion. In my teaching career, I've met MANY like this. There are "harder" disciplines than others, and many, many students take the easier disciplines. They "work hard" and get good grades. Then they go out into the workforce with their degree in, say, history, and they would be prepared to "work hard," but can't find a job. So, they "work hard" driving a cab. But in fact, all of their "hard work" was misdirected and undisciplined.
And the litany goes on and on and on. Is is somehow the responsibility of "society" to "correct" all these failings and problems?
Our founders said a resounding NO, and I echo it. There IS no "level playing field" to be had, and government's FIRST priority to ensure that there is not. ALL that is supposed to be "level" is the preservation of a very small set of basic rights. Beyond that, people choose their values, priorities, and efforts. And private parties may well choose to offer charity to those whom nature has not granted an excess of "smarts."
It is NOT for government to engage in this process!
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