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ThomasKeefer
Trad climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 8, 2013 - 12:28am PT
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Does anyone ever regret getting divorced?
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Know why divorce is so expensive?
Because it's worth it!
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ThomasKeefer
Trad climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2013 - 12:35am PT
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Ok.. thats all I needed to know. Awesome.
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splitter
Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Does anyone ever regret getting divorced? perhaps yer kids, if ya have any. never been married, so i don't know. i do regret not getting married when i had the opportunity (was engaged). hope it works out for the best for you. maybe you will get back together after a little down time (or whatever its called).
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Phil_B
Social climber
Hercules, CA
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Don't know about your case, but for me, it was the right thing to do. Hurt like hell, but I was forced to face some things about myself that I'd always been able to hide before.
Now, I look back on it as the push that led me to personal growth.
Do I regret it? Not a bit. Good luck. It's gonna suck for a while.
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Onewhowalksonrocks
Mountain climber
In the middle of the ocean
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I always say I am happily divorced. It's the married ones who frown when I say it. They just don't understand!
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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First is the worst
Second the same.
Third the best of all the game.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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50 yrs old and I've never been married either! I've lost many a great gal, to what I would say is
honorability though. Marriage is a doctrine for a vow to commiting to become a family for the reason of procreation with a chosen spouse inwhich ur combined perspective will produce a better generated generation.
Without a vision to produce a growingly better loving future. The paper a marriage certificate ain't worth sh#t.
Marriage isn't rules, or laws written down on paper. It's the coherence between two hearts to combine inorder to procreate a baby so as to create a heart in ur offspring that is most admired by the parents. Idealistically.
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MisterE
climber
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Wow, airing your grievances with your Ex on a public forum.
This is so new
so fresh.
I just need that little extra push
that hurtful thing
for me to share
EVERYTHING!
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Negotiating the terms of the divorce prior to marriage is good advice.
Sounds like good buisness. Doesn't sound like love.
Edit: Jstan, where'd ya go? I wasn't done with you yet ..
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Kenygl
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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Not for one minute. And I've had some practice at it.
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dirtbag
climber
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What I've regretted is getting involved in shitty relationships in the first place.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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I just hope it is not cyclic.
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Done it twice. The first was my call, the second hers. Both were difficult; the second immensely painful (lost my marriage and business in the same day--we were partners). After the second divorce, I felt like I couldn't trust my own decision making.
They say it takes as long to get over a divorce and back healthy as you were married. (Ugh.)
Immediately after the second divorce, a close friend of mine told me two things that were told to him after his second divorce: (i) it couldn't have been any other way, and (ii) it was the best thing that could have happened. I cursed him violently, but six years later when I finally returned to being whole , I came to see . . . he was right.
No matter who did what, there's learning there for you. I think you have to get to that. That's the point of it all. If you don't get that, you'll return to the same place (or worse).
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steve shea
climber
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I had a practice lap. It was the best thing to split. I learned a lot and have had a good marriage with number two.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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marriage is like climbing:
some people flash it
some people redpoint it
some people never get it
and some people like off widths
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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50 yrs old and I've never been married
Gee, what a surprise!
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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lol locker!
if one don't work get another one!
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Locker, ever think you drove them crazy???....
Oh well, good thing you kept YOUR looks together, BWA HA HA hahahaaa!!!
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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BLUEBLKER said: "Sounds like good buisness. Doesn't sound like love."
A marriage is a legal contract. That's exactly what it is. Legal and binding. Ask Locker or anyone who has split up. It gives you specific legal rights, and dictates in advance how much it's going to cost you if you split up.
Yet guys still don't get prenuptial agreements, which would be essentially an addendum to what you're signing when you get married.
Never divorced - 33 years together here...so far. No prenup.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Divorce has been the most painful and regretful thing in my life, and the legacy and details of it are still demanding my attention 5.5 years later. But, the only thing worse would have been not getting a divorce!
Hang in there. As much as it sucks, learn from it and move on. Peace, contentment, and happiness can be yours!
Edit: If you have kids and want to remain engaged in their lives, and if you have any doubts about reaching an amicable agreement with your ex (or if there are any signs of vindictiveness in their character), consult a lawyer BEFORE you move out of the house.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Get the best attorney you can afford.
I didnt. It cost me $45k.
Then, I got the attorney. She cost me another $23k.
All in about four years. Its finally done.
Would have been easier with the good attorney at the beginning. Live and learn.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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If things are ugly and you have a bad attorney or no attorney, and the other party pays for a good attorney, there's a reasonable chance you'll end up paying the bills for the other party's good attorney. Provable facts are pretty irrelevant if you aren't playing the court game by the proper rules and if you don't have a good enough lawyer to stop the other party from violating the rules and getting away with it.
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ThomasKeefer
Trad climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
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I am not planning to get divorced... but I am curious about this since I know plenty of people that regret getting married in the first place. I was seperated a while back and in the end we worked it out.
Thought alot about the "grass is always greener" argument during that time and in end was pretty convinced and oddly, I have very few friends who are divorced.
Thanks for the perspectives.. they are interesting.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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I'd be curious about the feelings of children of divorced parents. As soon as you have children, the equation changes, because your own happiness is not the only consideration.
I personally don't know. I'm a month from my 30th anniversary, and my younger sisters have been married 39 and 41 years. My parents marriage lasted until my father died. For all of that, I'm exceedingly grateful.
John
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Kids do change everything.
My parents divorced when I was 4. I saw my dad a few times per year. I'm 40 now, and I see my dad once a month. Ironically, my own experience with divorce and children has given me a lot more perspective on how my dad handled things, given me more respect for him, and our relationship now is stronger than ever.
But not having a deeper connection with my dad, and the access to the wisdom that could have provided, was a factor in me making the biggest mistake of my life and repeating the cycle in a marriage doomed from the start. C'est la vie.
As soon as kids came in the picture (5 years after the marriage), my earlier reasons for not divorcing seemed stupid and petty and childish. After years of consideration and reflection, the decision to divorce hinged on choosing the lesser evil for the kids.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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When my parents got divorced, my two siblings and all all thought the same thing, "what took you guys so long?"
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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marriage is like climbing:
some people flash it
some people redpoint it
some people never get it
and some people like off widths
Cracked me up.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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I split up with a girl I was considering marrying. One of the worst decisions I made in life. But whatever... things worked out okay.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 26, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
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I've just been booted from my home of 15 years with 2 kids. 'Tis a dark day...
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Oct 26, 2013 - 05:42pm PT
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This will probably get me in trouble with the women here, but it seems to me that men lead to break-ups differently than women. It seems evident when men are starting of thinking of quitting their roles.
On the other hand, women suffer for long periods of time in silence with themselves, not confiding in their husbands or mates until the scales have irrevocably been tipped. When they do finally tip, the deal is done emotionally. It's over. Their mind changes, and in almost no instance that I've seen can they go back once they've disconnected emotionally. Then there's nothing that men can do to change or rectify any problem that's been eating away at their woman.
The point of saying this is that men need to know that women can be suffering and not talking about it, especially if men are strong-willed, and confident, and are not adept at picking-up on weak signals.
Talk to your women, listen to them--and really hear them, and do it on a regular basis. Don't assume that if something critical is clear to you, that it's clear to them.
"So, how have you been feeling these days?"
These days I'M the one who demands conversations, and I stick with them until they are resolved--although I may have to make that happen in half-steps until we're done. I don't give up until we've finally come to an understanding that leads to a plan.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 26, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
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you hit the nail on the head Mike.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Oct 26, 2013 - 06:33pm PT
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I found, when I told my previous husband that I was leaving, he was STUNNED. STUNNED.
And that stunned me.
How could he have not seen it coming? I mean, I talked to him about issues. I told him clearly that if X didn't change, I'd have to go. We'd gone to counseling. (He quit going). I don't know how else I could have expressed that this was S.E.R.I.O.U.S.
He continues to tell folks that he never saw my departure coming. He was 100% shocked by it.I can't see how that's the case, but I honor his reality. Still baffles me though.
edit: And I'm sorry to hear about what you are going through Lambone. It isn't easy leaving or being asked to leave.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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Oct 26, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
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though i have flashes of brilliant contribution,
mostly i've been a mean and under-accomplished drunk
for the past handful of years.
my wife finally drew the line and
started packing.
i realized that my fears were materializing
in front of my eyes.
i pleaded.
she was done.
i promised.
she wanted none.
i threatened, but i had nothing to work with.
finally i offered her a hope:
i'll not sip a booze for a year.
i'll not offer a mean word or jesture for a year.
if, in the next year, i breach either of the two above referenced thresholds, i'd pack for her.
i'd sign over my half of our equity to her,
and i'd continue to work and pay towards her well-being
(not that she needs it.)
i'm hanging on by a thin cord,
though in the past two weeks,
i see that she is proud of me and my progress.
if you got any options left, lambone,
throw yourself at them.
you seem like a tough dude.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Oct 26, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
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Mugs Stump on women: "The f*#king you get isn't worth the f*#king you get."
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splitter
Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Oct 26, 2013 - 08:25pm PT
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"Tis better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all."
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Oct 26, 2013 - 08:43pm PT
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On the other hand, women suffer for long periods of time in silence with themselves, not confiding in their husbands or mates until the scales have irrevocably been tipped. When they do finally tip, the deal is done emotionally. It's over. (MikeL)
Exactly.
Here's a quote from someone: "Men view marriage as women view having children"
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Oct 26, 2013 - 08:52pm PT
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How is it about when you come home one day after framing a house and there is a note"I have left for 2 weeks to go to europe,I am not coming back".
Shock in relationships was nothing new to me.
Deceit was.
Standing in the Jefferson River,Montana,mending flies,my best friend approached with a joint in his hand,saying "We've gotta talk".
It turns out another close friend had been with my wife,for over a year.
It was bad enough,for sure.But knowing my good friends had known[for awhile] floored me.I not only lost what I thought was a caring wife,I have lost a couple of friends to boot.
So here I am,on a saturday night,sitting home with my 3 dogs.
The house that I built will be sold soon,somewhere around Christmas.The whole deal was built around 2 incomes,I cannot sustain and will be moving on in the dead of winter.
I will be OK.I have a piece of land,and will begin again.
Thank You for all that you have shared on this deeply personal subject.
It has sincerely helped knowing I am not alone. Terence.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Oct 26, 2013 - 11:56pm PT
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Best day EVER on this thread!!!!
Maybe on the Taco!
I'm shoulder to shoulder with you all ( except for what "Jim Thinks").
Sully: I DIG URS!
Weeg: UR BEST EVER!!!! LUV YA BRO!
MikeL: ALWAYS LOVE URS!!!!
Lambone: I'm swing'in right with ya! I gave her the house. But I refuse to give up "the Home" I built with my daughter. EVERYTHING is FOR the children!
I jus got in a big aurguement with the "X" over what our 7yro daughter was going to wear for Halloween. Can you believe that a mother would dress her daughter up as a "Vampire Crack Whore" copying the "Monsters Inc." thats crippling our children today.
And.. Why are schools, and Cummunity Centers, starting Halloween today? On a Saturday, and Halloween isn't untill next Thurs.????
Edit: Now; back to a REALLY good baseball game go'in on.
i wanna watch the World Series.
Jack Nicholas in "The One Who Flew Over The Cokoo's Nest"
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Oct 27, 2013 - 12:23am PT
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Sounds like being a 'pimp daddy' is infinitely preferable to being a married man. Your 'baby mama' stays upstairs at home and takes care of your no. 1 son and also disciplines the other girls in your 'crew' if they start talking trash or fighting. Meanwhile your 'bottom bitch' is working full time at the local 5-star hotels bringing in $2000+ a day doing rich computer nerd johns and white businessman tricks. Then you have a couple of 18-21 y.o. escorts-in-training who only work occasionally while they're building up their skill sets under your expert supervision. Back at home, when they're not servicing their 'pimp daddy', the younger girls in your crew can do the laundry, vacuum and garden to keep the place ship shape. Maybe they can all get into a fight over which one gets to feed your pit bull, Bruno? Since they all love and adore their 'pimp daddy', they give him every penny they earn and do everything they can to please him heavy 24/7. Make them all sign an LLC for photographic services and pay the State and IRS so there's nothing illegal going on. This lets you live like a king with a late model luxury car in the garage for driving your girls to their work spaces across town in de luxe style. Only problem is that you keep having to audition a new set of money maker girls off the street as your veterans wise up and run off with fat old 'sugar daddies' who adore them and place them on retainer.
And you thought marriage was complicated! Just remember: "Pimping ain't easy!" Felonious pandering is a heavy charge and packs a 5-to-10 year sentence. You also get to register as a sex offender. Such a deal!
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Oct 27, 2013 - 12:46am PT
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Ummmm....I had simply expected him to keep his pants on instead of getting a mutual best friend pregnant. Hence my son and his half brother are only 7 months apart.
Post script: My former and I stayed together for a few years after. Then he hung out with his other son's Mom for awhile. The boys are now 22 years old and after the initial "WTF" everyone remained very civil and enjoyed a lot of shared events and family-like stuff. The boys are very close as brothers.
Susan
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Oct 27, 2013 - 12:50am PT
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I felt like I took a chance doing so.
What chance is that? The chance that truth might be revealed?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Oct 27, 2013 - 12:55am PT
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Susan, Thats crazy sounding!
But where it is now sounds rad!!!
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Oct 27, 2013 - 01:10am PT
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Susan, Thats crazy sounding!
But where it is now sounds rad!!!
I think what helped was we were all "older" (late 30s, early 40s) and realized that hanging on to all the hurt, pain and resentment would have been toxic to these two beautiful boys becoming loving brothers.
Susan
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Oct 27, 2013 - 01:13am PT
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^^^ Thats right! And it's wierd how with all the differences, we are all family..
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Anastasia
climber
Home
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Oct 27, 2013 - 01:23am PT
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I understand those friends not telling their buddy that his wife was cheating because... No one likes to be "the person" that has to spill the ugly. Plus I think most people deep down just hope one of the fools wises up and just stops the madness, simply stops being a stupid idiot, low down, cheater. We want to forgive, forget and move on. Problem is the one being cheated on really would like to know, in fact it's essential for their own well being. That's hard to see from the outside when your own life is not being invested.
I for one... "Shaking my head" have been cheated on, lied to, played and put in some interesting situations. Why trust? Because I trust myself and I will attempt it, test, and test until I find that person who gets it.
I believe I have pulled that off. Maybe... One thing for sure, time shows everything. I know the risk is worth this kid. I'm already a winner if this is all I get out of this.
As for those that have regretted divorce... The only people I know that do are the one's who did a big mistake, learned from it, wanted another chance. The rest are usually happy to be rid of them.
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Oct 27, 2013 - 01:46am PT
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There were friends that knew that my wife was cheating on me that never said a word until after she left. When I found out, from them, that they had known...I cut them out of my life completely. For my friendship I expect a little damn loyalty.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Oct 27, 2013 - 07:49am PT
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Sully,thanks for that.
Yes ,Trust,I am working on that.
Anastasia,I am still somewhere between your feelings and Sal's.
Myself,I have always had to earn forgiveness.
Regret ,on the other hand came damn easy.
Time does show everything.
SC,you are extremely hard to dislike.
Cheers.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Oct 27, 2013 - 10:49am PT
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hey there, say, all...
well, first, to wilbeer... say, please always remember, when someone does what she did--it is THEM that were wrong, not you...
you still have and keep that value, as a person and do not lower yourself to be bitter... think, pray, or talk it out and let yourself feel good and clean inside, :) you will be glad and your future will be brighter then... however, it takes a longggggggg time for emotional pain to go away...
i know... :(
but, as for me, i had a hand-hold on the ol' heavenly realm, there and prayed through my hard times... :)
well, then, as to the topic:
i have never regretted... the door opened after some long traumatic emotional wierd-control type insecure and long list of stuff on the ex's part, as to how he was... it was just not normal to keep this pace anymore, no matter how good a wife one is... :( when i just did not know what to do anymore the floor gave out,as the roof caved in, and i jumped ship, :O and well, god caught me...
the kids, at this time were all grown up but for one mid-teens... it was just time...
i do not regret the marriage, either, as i had wonderful children for near 23 years, and i always wanted to be a mom and wife...
but it was not nice, what it turned into, as to what the kids did not see:
and now, sadly, though, they never believed anything was not quite right with the dad's 'philosophy etc' as to woman, --they believe their 'happy home' fell apart, 'cause i left and made the daddy very sad, and he drank more than he did EVEN before... :O
you can't try to explain what folks do not want to believe, so, it is left at that...
no regrets at all, not even though it is sad about the kids and the grandkids not seeing me--it feels so good and so clean to be free of a kind of mud that wants to suck you down into and make you think there is no such things as normal love, respect, and honor...
good words, good deeds, good things... integrity and so much more, NEED to be in a marriage... and it will only be there through good true honest out-reach between each other, as to the inner-self...
:)
wow, there are so many shares, here, i need to go back, later and read all this...
i sure hope if some others are going through divorce, that it will turn out well, many do not... and some turn dangerous...
:(
note:
the step grandkids here, just went through a family divorce...
second time for one, and first time for the other and second time for another... though--the parents did it with as much help as they can, for the kids, and are not fighting, and are keeping the love equal to the kids, as before--but the kids know:
it hurt, and it feels odd, and their home fell apart into two homes now...
so far, they are getting through this, and trying to understand it...
and--it was mainly due to alcohol--the wives of the dad, just couldn't keep the pace... :( you really can understand, too, if you know any hard-core or long-term alcoholics... it wears everyone down, :(
well, i reckon i said all this, so that if you are getting divorced
PLEASE work with the kids, and don't neglect any of their feelings, please, DEAL with them constantly, 'til the children are older and can fly-solo...
and--if you don't regret the divorce, that is more proof that it was
NEEDED... and healthy!
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Oct 27, 2013 - 10:59am PT
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hey there say, lambone... oh my, sorry to hear all this...
will be praying for you trail, as to whatever comes next, as you go through this...
also, hoping and praying for the best, for you, norwegian...
have not read far enough back, yet, but i felt the sadness in some of this, and the resolve, in some, as well... so i came back to post, early...
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James Wilcox
Trad climber
Goleta/Virginia Lakes
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Oct 27, 2013 - 11:36am PT
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There does seem to be the point in every marriage at about the seven year point where your commitment is really tested. If you can power through that one the following years seem easy.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Oct 27, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
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Does anyone ever regret getting divorced?
I suppose those who remarry the same spouse might have some thoughts on this.
For the most part, you don't see couples who have divorced hanging out together after they divorce.
For me, I waited a *long* time before I proposed. Now I'm excited to get married. This is it, a one shot deal...
Before I met my sweetheart, I'd meet women who would say they'd never go out with me because I'd never been married--I didn't know how to commit, they'd say.
They never got the irony when I asked how their divorce went.
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Oct 27, 2013 - 01:20pm PT
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SC,you are extremely hard to dislike. Thanks Wilbeer
I HATE what you and Lambone are going through. That numb feeling with ice water flowing through your veins. That horrific tossed aside feeling.
I wish you both fast speed through this time of impossible heartache. The shift can feel unbearable at times but it does seem that eventually equilibrium returns.
Susan
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Oct 27, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
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Wonder how many people are lurking in fear on this post ?...RJ
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Anastasia
climber
Home
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Oct 27, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
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No one likes being rejected. What I find funny is some folks sabotage their relationship, do exactly what their partner told them will cause them to leave/break up with them and then... Be angry that their partner actually does walk. It's pure egotistical madness.
One guy who knew I wanted kids, that was my dream future told me point blank after a year that I wasn't someone he wanted kids with. Well, that made our relationship pointless in one shot. For some reason he still doesn't know why I left... (Giggling) Seriously, beyond a few other flaws man, that was a home run for the game.
I don't understand why some guys don't get the obvious and get mad at me for not sacrificing my goals, what I really want in this life. That's selfish and that isn't relationship material.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Oct 27, 2013 - 07:38pm PT
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All things for a reason. If it doesn't work out or you get dumped, its because there is someone far better for you out there. Don't let it get you down, instead go find the girl of your dreams! hell yeah!! She is waiting for you guys...just got to go find her. and she probably won't be in a bar waiting for you, in case you were wondering.
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Anastasia
climber
Home
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Oct 27, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
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Jim,
I think it either works or it doesn't. The reasons are really just excuses and should be left alone... Well, until they vilify you then all bets are off.
:)
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Oct 27, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
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Having bought an Aston Martin for "our" relationship therapist, I have come to believe that we ALWAYS see the red flags. We make the choice to ignore them, for whatever reason. Seriously, how many of you who "were surprised" hadn't secretly been considering your own options, but just hadn't acted? Healthy relationships just don't end in a surprise. My marriage ended after 14 years with nary a note. My 10 year relationship with a movie producer was a frigging disaster from the outset, yet I fought tooth and nail to save it, to my own detriment...because I had been "trained" that "it's what you're supposed to do". I mean, what a g-damn waste of 10 years of my life!
Listen, unhealthy relationships, (and you know damn good and well if you're unhappy), are not worth the grief. EVERYONE involved, you, your mate, and the kids and pets, deserves a peaceful life without the drama.
As bad as it may feel in the immediacy, you'll soon find yourself much happier. Even alone, you'll be better off than you were suffering in silence or worse.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Oct 28, 2013 - 12:14pm PT
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Thanks for your kind posts, ALL.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Oct 28, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
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By the end of college, I'd had two girlfriends for about 2 years each, and in reflecting on the ends of those relationships, I had decided that any two people could make it work if they just committed and tried hard enough. The next girl I dated, we moved in together after a few months and were married in less than a year. The degree of warning signs and red flags present even in the first few weeks were almost comical, but that is a measure of my emotional maturity at the time. It took me a little more than a decade in marriage to learn that my idea about "any two people can make it work" is total bullsh!t. Total. Bullshat.
On the one hand, I grieve the 11 years where I betrayed myself and I stayed in a very difficult marriage. On the other hand, I cherish the emotional growth which that encouraged me to pursue. I might never have learned to understand and articulate and share my feelings, and I might never have dealt with childhood crap in such a thorough way, if my daily life had not been so uncomfortable. If I had been with a mild-mannered person, I might have limped along my entire life as an emotional cripple and been satisfied with just getting through each day.
It takes time to sort out who you are, what you want, what's important to you in a mate, how to behave in a relationship, when to be patient versus when to draw a line, and how to communicate all this stuff in a way that is respectful of the other person and yourself.
And underpinning these activities is a serious emotional struggle that can be difficult to put in words. Learning to love yourself, that you are worthy of love, that you don't have to suffer and struggle to earn love. That you have a right to be alive. That you have a right to be happy and joyful. That you are worthy of acceptance and belonging and that you don't need to hurt yourself trying to be something you are not to get the approval of someone else. Everyone has their own story and what issues strike closer to home for them, but in my reflections it seems that many people's issues, if you keep peeling back layers, come down to these issues. It's ironic that many people dismiss these ideas and topics as sissy mushy weakness, when in fact facing and dealing with these things is much harder than most "macho" rights of passage. I wonder how many people have placed themselves in harm's way and died or gravely injured themselves rather than risk losing acceptance or love? Or face the fact that other emotionally crippled people aren't ready to give it to them?
And suppose you are with a person you believe is your ideal mate, but they walk away? Well, it wasn't working for them. You weren't able to give them what they needed, or they weren't ready to articulate what they needed, or... hey, if you love yourself, move on and find someone else who is at the right place in their lives to receive the love you have to give, and who is ready to give you love too. You're worth it.
If you can't find love and acceptance for yourself, can't forgive yourself and learn from whatever mistakes you've made, you can spend your life in fruitless relationships and fruitless pursuits and nothing will ever be enough to fill those holes.
This is the symphony behind so many failed and failing relationships. And how is a teen or a young twenty-something from an emotionally dysfunctional home supposed to unravel and divine all these things and navigate their way to a healthy relationship? What is that quote about wisdom and experience and screwing up?
In a healthy relationship, both parties are able and willing to walk away. That doesn't mean you leave at the slightest provocation and are an unreliable partner. That means you will not be stuck in a relationship that hurts you. And your partner knows it, and you know the same about your partner. You can enforce that the relationship is good for all participants. Everyone knows that if they don't honor their commitments, you won't stick around anyways out of fear of being alone or "for the kids" or whatever other rationalizations that lead to more pain and suffering. Being willing to leave means that all parties know where they stand, that they are present of their own choice and toxic guilt-trips can be left by the wayside. All parties take responsibility for their actions and do what it takes to make a relationship work or face the fact that it's not working and move on to create more possibility for happiness.
Sure there are other possible ways to lead life. I choose these ideals because I've spent enough time suffering, I've spent enough time trying to look happy when I'm not really happy, and actually being happy is a much better use of my precious time on earth. And these are the lessons I want my children to learn.
I had to learn these lessons and reach these conclusions on my own before I was ready to find a heart/mind/body/soul mate. We have been together for 5.5 years, and it is still bliss. And it is also a deep, quiet, contentedness. It's the way life should be.
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Leggs
Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
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Oct 28, 2013 - 03:04pm PT
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NutAgain ... that was excellent... just excellent.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 28, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
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That numb feeling with ice water flowing through your veins. That horrific tossed aside feeling.
pretty much :(
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Oct 28, 2013 - 04:16pm PT
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I once read that marriage doesn't solve any problems..Yeah i know..profound..
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Climber Joe
Trad climber
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Oct 28, 2013 - 04:31pm PT
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Painful but worth it without question. Like chopping off a hand to be free and live. I could have copied and pasted NutAgain's post and it would have been true for me.
Life is short. Kids (if you got any) are precious. Enjoy your time here. Climb.
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Leggs
Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
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Oct 28, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
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Also enjoy being on your own after divorce. Some of us are content alone. You don't have to be a pair to have significance. Some of us are Thoreau, perfectly content at Walden.
I love it, Sullly. ~
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10b4me
Ice climber
Bishop/Flagstaff
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Oct 28, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
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Some of us are content alone. imo, that's true if you lead an active lifestyle, and are relative young.
I think that changes when you are in your 70s, and 80s. Especially, if you don't have anyone to support you.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Oct 28, 2013 - 05:13pm PT
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I only thought of my ending sentence "as it should be" within the realm of the life I want for myself. I'm sure many people find their ultimate happy life without having a partner, and I've known people who are happy in polyamorous relationships too. Whatever floats your boat and makes you feel like you are living the life you were born to live :)
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Oct 28, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
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For most of mankind's history, marriage was just a non-religious civil union - a contract between two or more people.
During the Medieval period the ceremony was hijacked by the church. Now every bone-headed Christian believes that marriage is - and always has been - some sacred religious ceremony. Bullsh#t.
Back to the OP's question:
Q: Do you know why divorce is so expensive?
A: Because it's worth it!
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 30, 2013 - 01:20am PT
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Day 5 on my friends couch. Yesterday was my birthday and she didn't even wish me one on FB. Seen my toddlers for 20 minutes...
I'm f*#ked
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Oct 30, 2013 - 01:29am PT
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Day 5 on my friends couch. Yesterday was my birthday and she didn't even wish me one on FB. Seen my toddlers for 20 minutes...
As one who was kicked to the curb last year after 18 years, I can relate. Hang in there, it does get better.
Curt
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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Oct 30, 2013 - 01:33am PT
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Lambone,...damn, i'm so sorry ... )-;
Wishing you better days ..
take care...
best wishes to you ..
and wilbeer...
sending a hug ..
nita.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Oct 30, 2013 - 09:17am PT
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Hang in there Lambone and Wilbeer too. There is life after divorce, it will seem unimaginable things could improve when your going though it. The kids add significantly to the heartache, it breaks your spirit but it won't kill it.
What you are experiencing is a process of loss and it can be profound. Years ago I thought I was dying and that it was the worse thing that had or could have happened to me, with two small kids, a business, a house and all the other stuff.. The most amazing personal journey was as it turned out it became the best thing ever to happen to me. I won't go into any of the ugly and beautiful detail other than to say that adversity and hardship is also a door, you will move through it and there will be light in what now looks like a dark room.
You feel the loss of power but I can tell you it's still there for you. You'll find it when you are ready, use it to grow far beyond where you are today. It's a tough road but one that will lead you to a better place. Live well (avoid the dark side), keep loving much and let it go. You can live more fully than you ever have by making good choices as you move forward.
Best to you,
Charlie D.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Oct 30, 2013 - 09:28am PT
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Yeah...Get back in there bro...Your kids need you and moving out like that comes under the 9/10ths posession of the law category.. and keep your chin up..!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 30, 2013 - 10:42am PT
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Day 5 on my friends couch.
I thought climbers are tough and know the art of bivy ........
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Oct 30, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
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Lambone, if access to your kids is an issue, and ex is non-cooperative, DO NOT let it go for a long time trying to work it out amicably. Don't mess around with mediation if you think your ex is basically not receptive to it or just stalling. That establishes a "status quo" of you not being as engaged with the children and works against you having more access in the future.
It's better to face the fight now, get something reasonable in place, then over time you can patch up the co-parenting relationship when your rights are preserved and the kids will have more of a chance to have a relationship with you.
In California, you would have to file a FL-300 to get a request for hearing to establish a child custody order. I'm not sure what the equivalent would be in Oregon.
If you want more access to your kids and don't have it now, time is against you. This is the time to buck up and get done what needs to get done. Good luck.
EDIT: Also be VERY careful about not giving your ex any reason to withhold the kids from you. Be careful of any altercation with her in which she can claim that she was scared, you are abusive, etc. That will work very much against you, regardless of how much truth is in her claims. If she refuses to let you see the kids, don't try to force it. Send an email, document your requests and her actions, and hire a lawyer.
EDIT EDIT: +1 to Charlie D's comments. That's the spiritually good side of things, which will keep you afloat. But taking action now is also important if your ex is inclined to not support the kids' relationship with you.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Oct 30, 2013 - 03:55pm PT
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What Nutagain, said, plus, no matter how you are pushed, don't become nasty via email or text as this will be used against you. If you can't sound reasonable and adult, don't respond in type.
I've been a friend witnessing a horrible co-parenting relationship for 4 years now. Basically, due to a stray sperm, two people who dated for 4 months are inextricably bound to each other for a lifetime. And each can be held financially responsible (end up supporting the other partner) if one decided to just stop working.
Your kids really, really need you when the relationship is tanking. Do everything you can to see them and do everything you can to show them you are a stable, loving presence for them, even if you have to fake this.
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BrassNuts
Trad climber
Save your a_s, reach for the brass...
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Oct 30, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
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Charlie D. - very well spoken and true in my past experience. Nice post.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 31, 2013 - 12:16am PT
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I appreciate the advice you guys.
She's been up front about wanting to give me full access to the kids for my sake and theirs. She's asked me everyday if I want to see them and I saw them today. For me it was more of a personal struggle dealing with the shock and pain, and not wanting to go back and look her in the eye. But I realized that my being weak was hurting them so I sucked it up and went back. And wouldn't ya know it, hugs and love from those kids was the best therapy I could hope for.
I hear y'all saying "get back in the castle," trust me, I intend to. But forcing it now would end bad. The whole thing would implode and it would get ugly quick. She says she needs space to work on being happy again. I can give it to her. I mean she could be saying "I'm in love with someone else," or "I can never forgive you." But she's not. She's saying we need real change to move forward and both be happy. And in a lot of ways she's right. Although I think we could have accomplished that via other means then seperation. But she felt she had to take a stand. I have nothing bad to say about her and will not talk trash. She's a good woman. I take responsibility for the position we are in as a result of my f*#kups and poor choices and lack of attention to her needs.
I'm fighting for not ending up divorced here folks. I want a better life for our kids and believe we still after 15 years love eachother. Everyone says it will work out like its supposed to and that I'll be happy either way. I believe that. But I want our life back.
The pain of being shunned from home over the last week has been tough. The empty feeling of having nowhere to be and no one to come home to is something that I've never experienced. But I'll get through it. From here on out I will offer nothing but love and kindness. If she turns it down, that's her loss I guess. And her kids loss.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Oct 31, 2013 - 12:42am PT
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Cold c*#k her when the kids aren't looking...!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 31, 2013 - 12:46am PT
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johnny
The pain is in his heart not in his head.
Sometimes in life you should just be Johnny and not be rotten .....
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10b4me
Ice climber
Bishop/Flagstaff
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Oct 31, 2013 - 12:50am PT
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Matt, my parents were married until my father died in 2002(sixty-two years). I saw them go through thick and thin, but the marriage survived. My mom , who is in failing health, laments the thin times. Marriage, and any relationship, relies on many things to survive. Communication, honesty, and truthfulness are keys to a successful relationship.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Oct 31, 2013 - 12:56am PT
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Lambone, I am so glad you saw your kids. I send good vibes for working this out with your wife.
Sully, my friend was told by her lawyer not to pursue the child's father for his half of the support because the father is very very underemployed and my friend would end up paying him child support. And this is after simply dating for 4 months (they were broken up 6 weeks when she found out she was pregnant.)
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Oct 31, 2013 - 01:15am PT
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Child support is computed by a fairly simple formula that takes into account the income and liabilities of the parents, in particular the non custodial parent. The only way your friend pays the father child support is if he is the primary physical custodian of the child. The computer WILL NOT generate a child support number that exceeds ones income...though it might feel like it. IMHO, and the state's btw, if it's your sperm, you need to be supporting your kids.
In as much as there was no marriage, Spousal Support does not apply.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Oct 31, 2013 - 02:47am PT
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Alright Lambone, I'm happy to hear you faced stuff and spent time with the kids. My perspective before was for a different situation. If she is not blocking you from time with the kids, then getting lawyers etc. is just an escalation of whatever conflict there is and won't help you at all toward an amicable or peaceful resolution. Lawyers increase conflict, contempt, and whaetever negative feelings are there. They encourage new trespasses that make it less possible to forgive each other. They are motivated to win the immediate conflict at whatever cost, not create the long-term environment for the most mutual happiness or least mutual pain. If you think that an amicable/peaceful resolution or a reconciliation is possible, everything I said before doesn't apply.
BUT... if there is already a full-on war going on, but you just don't know it yet, then going through the motions of being amicable and peaceful will end up reducing the time you get with the kids. It all comes down to how well you know your wife, how she handles conflict, how straight-up facing stuff she is vs. being deceitful, how much she prioritizes her own desires vs. others' desires, how much she fundamentally believes in the role of the father in the kids' lives, where her actions and inner feelings may not match her words, etc.... I personally have had a tough situation because of unfortunate factors here, but it seems that many more (if not most) people have the good fortune to find a reasonable civil way through it to minimize damage.
I hope it all works out for you, that the pain you are feeling motivates you to deal with whatever obstacles get in the way of you being who you want to be, and that you are able to reconcile, forgive, and either make it work or part peacefully but be supportive parents together.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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Oct 31, 2013 - 05:14am PT
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i don't know the specifics of your situation, lambone.
but as a father of a 10 year old and a 7 year old,
i do know that kids put a significant strain
on the couple-ship between the wife and husband.
i don't see my wife that often, for
all the prosperity-pursuit;[Click to View YouTube Video]
and when i do, the kids are usually
all tangled up in our communication,
and of course independent time with
her is greatly abbreviated.
then there is the struggle of
unifying parenting approaches.
my 10 year old is currently lying to us,
and issuing disrespectful words,
both at an increasing frequency.
just last night, i got reprimanded
by my wife in front of the kids
because i calmly called Annapurna on
her shite, and took away a spend-over
with her friend as consequence.
my wife doesn't believe in "consequences"
and blunt accusations, and
i don't believe in allowing the kids
to walk on me.
so i got to sleep on the couch.
i wish you the strength and clarity
to see through the current challenges
and recognize that all the reasons
that you married the gal in the first place
are still there,
and someday, when the kids are moved on,
you'll have your sweetie back
in full regard.
i see a lot of my peers break up their
marriage at this time of the trip:
when the kids are young and demanding
upon precious couple resources
(time, energy and money.)[Click to View YouTube Video]
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Oct 31, 2013 - 05:15am PT
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Do you guys have a really good marriage and family therapist in your town? Find one that you BOTH like, then go. A good one will get you two talking CONSTRUCTIVELY, even if you eventually come to a decision to split.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Oct 31, 2013 - 06:05am PT
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relationship trouble?
nerves strained to the breaking point?
easy,
1)Install Adobe Flashplayer 11
2)Watch movies til your mind is fixed
don't matter how long it takes because time is just a concept,
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Oct 31, 2013 - 08:05am PT
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Werner...I was rotten in my last life and am still working thru the Johnny..I feel stupid and wish i was born outside of the U. S. of A..
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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Oct 31, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
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our soul is drunk on emotions, johhny.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
there's not individual souls for each of us to inherit, nope.
there is only one collective soul, that we all share and comprise.
we getta take turns bludgeoning that dream,
i admit i hog the universal spirit, at times.
and flog the piss out of it with bliss.
here, i've had my fill,
someone else house it for a century or so.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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welp, she dropped the D word....seems pretty determined. I'm trying to keep myself together and keep my hope alive. It's pretty much all I got at this point. I keep showing up and being kind. Maybe if some time goes by she'll reconsider. sucks all around. We're in this for the long haul together and I'm not gunna fight her...she wants me to be in the kids lives and I'm happy for that.
Spent too much time this year makin myself happy through my passions and not takin care of her needs at home. she thinks the things I need to be happy will never allow her to be. tough situation, we failed at finding a happy middle ground and things that make us both happy together.
hardest experience of my life to be forced to vacate my home and children.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Lambone, are you willing to go to couples therapy? Is she?
[edit] Here's the name and number of an Ashland therapist who has completed advanced training in a highly effective orientation to couples work.
Will Nuessle 541-301-8522
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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I asked the other day. didn't go well. she's asked me before and I've resisted thinking we could get by on our own. that worked out, huh?
I'm trying. one step at a time. thanks for the recommendation. maybe i'll go meet that person on my own and suss it out.
there is still a lot of love on both ends. and I'm hanging on.
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MisterE
climber
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Man, just saw this - sucks Lammy.
I know you are a good man with a great heart.
Erik
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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You might get a lot of traction if she sees you are trying to really "get it" and "get her" by doing something you've resisted. I bet her side sounds something like, if only you had wanted to go earlier it wouldn't have come to this and now that I am really out of here, you are willing, well poop on you.
The really good part of working with someone who knows how to work with this dynamic is that you might get some really good feedback about exactly how to talk to her in a way she can hear. And you will, if you really enter the therapy with willingness, get something that makes her able to listen to your part in all of it. You are caught in a dance and both sides have missed some steps. I send hopeful energy and good vibes.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Yes, and yes. But I need balance, we both do. My balance got out of alignment.
I appreciate yalls sound advice and concern, but I don't really want to get into details too much on here. She's a good woman with a solid head on her shoulders and a big heart.
Mostly just checkin in with my 'taco fam let y'all know I'm alright. Keepin my head up. Tryin not to booze it up.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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speakin of booze,
how do you make Manischewitz Wine?
kick him in the balls,
girls are alright,
the pretty ones are like stamps,
you gotta lick em before your stick em,
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sometimes you hang on too long, I did. When splitting up looks inevitable, get it done and move on.....you might be surprised what you find out there.
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splitter
Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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you might be surprised what you find out there. i here this hot babe is available and fairly easy to get along with...
she's even been up el cap a few times. and ain't showing her age at all.
edit: rottingjohnny cud probably hook ya up with her, or one of her sistahs (he's got the inside scoop on all the hot babes).
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Sometimes you hang on too long, I did. When splitting up looks inevitable, get it done and move on.....you might be surprised what you find out there.
I was going to say this, but didn't want to be the first. This was also my experience. It's terribly difficult to let go when you're still in love with someone--but sometimes this is exactly the right course of action. Having said that, this is a very hard thing to do and even harder to accept.
Curt
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Especially with the kid factor. 3 and 4 years old.
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splitter
Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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tiogo - more fun and loyal... better lookin also, imho!
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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I'm very sorry that you are going through this, and wish you the best. Having never been married, I am clueless, of course, so have no advise.
However, I did notice that you wrote ..she wants me to be in the kids lives and I'm happy for that.
Certainly no need to acknowledge this or respond on this thread, but if those children are your biological or adopted children, you have every right in the world to be in their lives. It's great that your wife wants you to be in their life, of course, but that's besides the point. Of COURSE you would be in their lives - you're their dad!
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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I don't know a heck of a lot, but one thing I know with near perfect assurance is that most of the time, paying a therapist to help sort things out in advance of a split is cheaper than paying the lawyers to do so after the fact as you try to untangle it all. Matt, I'd call Daphne's recommended therapist. Getting a good one recommended is awesome.
Good luck, it's tough, and like Donini suggests, hang in there and it gets better.
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Best of luck, Lambone.
I'd go with Daphne's suggestions, any time!
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splitter
Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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tioga - i wonder what "therapists" would say if someone came in with a sheep. planning on having children?
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splitter
Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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yep, sheeple.
ya got black sheeple.
white sheeple.
brown sheeple.
mulato sheeple (mixed marriage). etc...
...it's all good!
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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The less compatible you are in a relationship (despite whatever chemistry you have), the more stress is on the relationship when you choose between what you would want for yourself and what you must do to "keep the other person happy" and the relationship tenable. This can lead to pretty unreasonable situations if you don't give yourself the option to walk away.
For years during my first marriage, I thought I was deeply flawed and broken, and that I was lucky to have such an understanding person to stay with me. This led me to be outwardly praising of my ex to our friends and family, but it didn't sit right with part of me. The reality is that we both were both pretty damaged, and our negative patterns fed off of each other in escalating feedback loops and kept us locked in a destructive relationship.
There were many recurrent negative cycles, one of which is immediately relevant to this part of the discussion (no, not the sheep thing! before that!):
1) In my desire for love and making the relationship work, I surrendered important parts of myself, and allowed violations of important personal boundaries that I hadn't learned to defend yet. I shaped myself into what I needed to be to make the relationship work.
2) At first it's ok and worth it amidst the flush of "love." But after a while, I yearned to express other parts of me or at least discover who I was under the facade of shape-shifting to suit the relationship, and trespasses started to add up and if there are any hiccups in the flow of "love" which made the delicate balance worth it(e.g. the other person is having a bad day, or feels threatened and responds defensively, or more stresses pile on with kids and money issues and parents and whatever), then my tolerance for the various stuff I'd put up with would instantly erode and, and we would each go into our defensive patterns. I was afraid of confrontation, my ex was afraid of being neglected or abandoned, and what we each needed in these critical moments was the opposite of what we each had to give, and it would spiral out of all reason.
3) I would feel guilty for my part of the blow up, and that guilt would drive me to try harder and accept more crap as some form of atonement. Whatever my issues were that led up the conflict would remain unresolved because the distraction of our immediate conflict, and I would just swallow the unresolved thing. For a while (weeks? months?) this works, but at some point the same unresolved conflicts and differences emerge again and the cycle repeats.
Over the years of being aware of this pattern, and trying various intellectual ways to fend it off (recognizing what my trigger points were, mentally preparing myself to not get sucked into a predictable pattern), trying to talk through the issues at another time to no avail, well, at some point I figured out that it didn't matter how much I thought it through, eventually a conflict would arise and in the heat of our conflict I was operating from a different part of my brain not subject to the calm and rational approaches I had practiced. It was more like a fight-or-flight mode (more flight in the beginning, more fight when I was literally cornered). When I finally recognized and accepted this, I gave up the purely intellectual approach (which was important for me in the beginning to understand what was happening and why), and shifted my focus to dealing with my emotional maturity and dealing with the original patterns carved deeply into me from childhood. These childhood patterns were being tapped by my relationship at the time, and that led to the fight-or-flight response where I couldn't consistently act from a rational/reasonable state throughout our conflict.
Over the course of years, I became much better at recognizing and understanding these patterns, taking energy away from childhood wounds and effectively reducing the number of situations where I would go into the fight-or-flight mode in my "adult" relationship. "Taking the energy away from" is code for the ugly reality of processing childhood emotions that I didn't have an outlet for as a child. It's a lot of work, a lot of being vulnerable and going into about as uncomfortable mental states as you can imagine. It's looking directly at whatever is the scariest thing you can imagine, and going back into a position of helplessness or terror or furious righteous anger or whatever you felt at the time that the patterns were set. It's not for everyone, it's easy fodder for jokes about healing your inner child, but it was probably the best thing I ever did for myself, that made my current happy life possible.
Anyways, all this stuff turned out to be very good for me in terms of my peace of mind and emotional stability. But, ultimately, it became an enabler for me to have more patience and longer periods of tolerance in an intrinsically unhealthy relationship in which I forced myself to stay for far too long. In short, it enabled the negative cycles with my wife to persist over a longer period of time (e.g. years instead of days/weeks/months). In theory, if my ex had been willing to walk a similar path of healing that I had, we could have turned the corner in a different way and supported each other as we got through the power struggle phase of the relationship into a deeper level of maturity and mutual support. But that didn't happen.
Eventually, as a side-effect or perhaps the main effect of all the other emotional work, I valued myself more, loved myself more, and recognized the insanity of keeping myself in a situation that was irreconcilable. After years of day-by-day survival and not really living the life I wanted to live, walking on egg-shells, etc... we had another fight and I felt such a supreme degree of contempt and resentment and anger that I spit in my wife's face. I was distraught that after years and years of trying to deal with my own stuff and learning to communicate better etc. that it would come to this. That I would lower myself to acting like that. Suddenly the light bulb came on for me that it wouldn't matter how much effort I put in for the rest of my life I couldn't stop the patterns from reemerging with this person. It's like if I was lifting weights and could bench press 200 pounds, but time and again I failed to lift an 800 pound bar. That's not to say all the problems were her fault. More like my part of solving our relationship problems was far more than I was able to do, regardless of whatever she was or wasn't doing to help solve our relationship problems. It was just too much for me to handle, and it was not for lack of me trying. The only way I could fix it was to leave.
There's a lot more to the story under the hood. Pretty crappy stuff on both sides. But I pulled back the curtain a bit to give more weight to what Donini said... If somewhere in your heart you know it's not going to work, it's best to make a clean break of it. Especially if your relationship has the potential to get ugly. I have been with another person for 5.5 years, and there is no hint at all of the ugliness that was obvious from the first few weeks I was with my ex-wife. I think we are all capable of enormously beautiful and ugly things depending on the situation. With grace, we learn to stay away from the ugliness.
I hope all this is useful to someone. I'm at peace with much of this stuff now. But it was so painful for so long, affected me so profoundly, and out of ignorance and inexperience I made decisions that prolonged it and ultimately made it worse. I would like to help anyone I can to not make the same mistakes.
Everyone's situation is different, but I hope this triggers some introspection for those who feel the need for it.
Now, it's time for me to make a yummy late dinner and enjoy a lovely evening with a person who it's easy for me to be happy with- where I can relax and be myself and be happy and we support each other. 5.5 years together and some difficult external circumstances, and we are still deeply in love, very happy with each other, still hold hands in public, and breathe a deep sigh of contentment and satisfaction every time we hug :)
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Suddenly the light bulb came on for me that it wouldn't matter how much effort I put in for the rest of my life I couldn't stop the patterns from reemerging with this person. It's like if I was lifting weights and could bench press 200 pounds, but time and again I failed to lift an 800 pound bar. That's not to say all the problems were her fault. More like my part of solving our relationship problems was far more than I was able to do, regardless of whatever she was or wasn't doing to help solve our relationship problems. It was just too much for me to handle, and it was not for lack of me trying. The only way I could fix it was to leave.
This is pretty much what she is saying now. :(
I'm still hanging on.
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jstan
climber
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If there are no children involved then it is a simple relationship problem. Relationships involve two ( or possibly more) people. That said, sitting down and asking, "What do you think we should do?" is one option. Pride has to go. That's not an option. Or so my experience tells me.
The problem of pride is easily resolved. If you are involved simply out of affection then you want the other person to have a satisfying life. If the relationship is not mutually satisfying, then you want the problem/relationship to be resolved, however it is to be done.
If the relationship is not based simply on affection, you have managed to state the real problem.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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stole that from Red Foxx,
you want XXX humor, he is the guy,
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Nov 12, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
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hey there say, lambone... oh my...
hang in there and just keep being a kind dad, if anything... and be a kind friend to her... and see what happens next...
kindness is what will be the balm, for the future, no matter how it does...
my ex-son-in-law just got divorced after this SECOND ten-year span, of being married (first to my daughter and then, to a nice good gal, after that)...
his treasure, through all this, has been 'whatever he needs to do for the kids'... thus--the kids love him and keep him going...
it was a shock and very hard on him... he did keep the home, though, as, it was too much for her...
the kids took it hard, as, they did not see the drinking-issue and only of recent had 'heard trouble, argues, etc, and the 'd' word'...
after they saw that the parents were still able to be friends and no violence was involved or ugliness, they have settle down and come to terms with this and see the parents, in turns, every other weekend, and
they just want the continued love and attention, of the parents, even if it is not together--they have realized that has happened and it won't go back...
the youngest gal, was not used to this, though the others had been through this before... does not mean this is good, but, it has turned out
better than it could have been--everyone here was concerned to put the kids first over any pain, of their own...
thankfully, too, each parent has a support system of other friends that they had HAD before they were married, so they were not left alone to suffer with isolation of 'nothing left' as to daily 'what and where do i go now' type things...
hope some of this may help...
god bless...
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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Nov 17, 2013 - 06:56am PT
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i've empathy, lambone.
my gal and i get on real nice, once we're allowed to.
though this time of our life: raising kids, tackling monumental bills,
keeping careers, maintaining our core selves, eeking out self-worth (financial and emotional)....
all of these endeavors tax the relationship between us.
my relationship is always close to fracturing,
and it saddens me immensely when i see it teetering,
because i know in my heart, that if i can just
get through this tough era of life,
my girl and i will fall in love again
on the tail of child-rearing,
and we'll get to enjoy the latter aspects of
life together, as friends and lovers.
but i fear that we'll never get there,
because our love is so tangled up in the current overload of responsibilities.
so we beat our brow in this monumental effort to synthesize an empire,
and the cost to us is the partner that we love.
that's f*#ked up.
but hey,
other successful relationships everywhere are failing as well,
in separate but parallel circumstances.
so lambone, if your girl kicks you to the curb
and has enduring riddance of you, i'm certain that
there are other stellar gals out there, with
good hearts and visions, solid life and relationship skills,
that will join your stride thru whatever awaits you.
that's one consolation that i try to remember when
my love horizons look bleak.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Nov 17, 2013 - 10:26am PT
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neebee nails it.
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Nov 17, 2013 - 11:08am PT
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^^^^what he said about what Neebs said. Sometimes it is just that simple...kindness...
Susan
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Nov 19, 2013 - 12:17am PT
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One. Day. At. A. Time.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Nov 19, 2013 - 06:12am PT
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hey there say, lambone... thanks for checking in with us all...
god bless...
also:
norwegian, you are in our hearts, too...
god bless...
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Nov 19, 2013 - 09:46am PT
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Especially with the kid factor. 3 and 4 years old.
Oh damn, that REALLY hurts. Mine were 3 and 1 when it all went down.
Luckily for the kids we always did a good job of working together when it came to raising them.
It didn't become so toxic that the kids were pawns to get at each other, as so often happens. That part of the effort made all four of us more successful survivors......
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Nov 30, 2013 - 12:52am PT
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Hope all is going well for those that may be spending their first holiday after a seismic shift in their family life.
Susan
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Nov 30, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
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breaking up sucks. whilst the death of my current - whoa, I mean most recent - partnership can't really compare to the magnitude and intensity of your situation, Lambone, I do seem some parallels.
my monomaniacal focus on my outlets cut deeply into, even negated, my ability/willingness to contribute to the partnership. we were on the skids for months and now she called it quits.
what you feed grows, what you starve dies. keep feeding your relationship with your kiddos!
and don't forget to feed yer own self - go climb!
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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sorry bravecowbody,
I'm still alive though looks like I'll be riding the divorce train. amical split through mediation is on the table and hopefully where things go baring reconciliation. she wont do counseling. no budging on her end, though shes still being civil and friendly. I hope someday she might see a different outcome is possible. says she loves me and just needs to be happier. tough bullet to swallow.
hard times. I'm just being the best me I can be for myself and our kids...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I've been there....yes it is a bitter pill to swallow but, trust me, it will be okay on the other end.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Be well Lambone.
My parents made a similar situation work better than their marriage. So much less stress for my brother and I after the divorce and they actually were better friends after. They really were friends. Though in talking to them later as an adult they both had some residual heartache about the divorce. Happier for it even so.
So I guess that is my wish for you. If it must happen then I hope it goes as well for you as it did for my Family.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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this was a Craigs list post. Not mine.
For sale I have a 1.5ct total weight engagement ring set in 14K white gold. The ring is in like new condition, only worn for a short period of time by Satan herself. Comes with the original box. Very pretty ring with a lower setting so the diamonds won't snag on everything. Diamonds along the sides and in the channel setting show off light from all sides. Originally purchased from Littman's for a sum of money far greater than I am comfortable admitting.
Warning: ring may be cursed as it tends to leave a path of destruction behind it. Possible events associated with this ring include but are not limited to: damage sustained to house, vehicle, heart, downed powerlines, fallen trees, and swarms of locus. I would highly recommend taking action to counter the whirlwind of bad mojo that surround this piece of jewelry. Should consider having curse removed by voodoo priest or something before presenting to loved one. Other than that a very nice piece of jewelry.
Looking to sell this soon before it brings any more bad luck into my life and I'd rather have cash. If not sold by Christmas I plan to throw it into the fires of Mordor.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Lamebone said: "Looks like I'll be riding the divorce train. amical split through mediation is on the table and hopefully where things go baring reconciliation. she wont do counseling."
It's a rare divorce process that doesn't turn to acrimony via satanic and greedy lawyers if you don't do some form of counseling in advance Matt: good luck. I'm not a counselor and never utilized the service being with the same woman now for @34 years and it's still good, but it's what I see over and over and over...........
Tradman, that's hilarious stuff there! I'd made both our rings myself out of silver, figure that keeps the money out of it just a tad and it's what I could afford.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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For useful cross referenes concerning the joys/rewards of splitting up, read this ST thread.
"By No Coincidence At All - Or Mr. Murphy Never Sleeps"
P.S. Some one should tell me how to reference a direct link to another thread. I'm too retarded to figure it out and too lazy to try.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Divorce lawyers and marriage counselors always get paid. It would be best to dispense with both of them but that requires agreement......something not in great supply with couples splitting up.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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In the midst of it. The preliminary court dates and meetings have begun.
At this moment I'm going it alone without a lawyer. However, if we can't mediate then I'm getting a lawyer. I do have good advice from several Jewish lawyers in synagogue. We'll see what happens.
So far the two meetings have occurred on Jewish Holidays. What's up with that? I'm gonna ask the judge not to allow that anymore. That's bunk.
Women can change, and sometimes not for the better (of course men can too but that didn't happen in my case):
*Personality
*Physically
*Lack of interest in all former outdoor sports we enjoyed together
*Emotionally
*Menopause (read the book, "The Female Brain" by a female neurosurgeon, what an eye opener.)
*Faith or lack thereof
*How they miss-handle money, finances, and wealth
*Mean spirited
And yet I didn't ask for divorce, she did. Doesn't matter however. With "No Fault Divorce" here in California, if you sneeze wrong, your spouse can leave you. Yes, it can be forced on the other spouse even though they don't want it.
HaShem does assign blame in divorce. There can be innocent parties. Sure wish people knew "The Good Book" and believed it, and understood how G-d views things. There will be lots of shock and surprise on Judgement Day. We won't be judged according to the lie of "No Fault Divorce."
Jeremiah 3:20-22 (KJV)
[20] Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the LORD.
[21] A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God.
[22] Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.
Edit:
Dingus,
That isn't the law. Marriage is an institution of G-d. G-d's law, Torah, prevails, regardless of what man's law states. G-d's law trumps man's law every-time.
Divorce is not the unforgivable sin. However, if you do it, and for unjustified biblical reasons, then yes, you have left G-d. One can repent and ask forgiveness from G-d, and reconcile if the other spouse hasn't remarried. If they have remarried, then you have to again ask forgiveness from your former spouse for doing what you did, and then move on. G-d knows the innermost secrets of our heart. You can't fool HaShem.
BTW, how is the relationship going with the 21 year old girl.
She's 26 or 27. I like her. She's likes me. There is no dating going on, just group activities together. I'm technically still married, though my wife left over 2.5 years ago.
The divorce process has begun. What joy. (Sarcasm)
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Kilmmer, your wife left you because you are a religious nut. End of story.
BTW, how is the relationship going with the 21 year old girl.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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It's a rare divorce process that doesn't turn to acrimony via satanic and greedy lawyers if you don't do some form of counseling in advance Matt: good luck. I'm not a counselor and never utilized the service being with the same woman now for @34 years and it's still good, but it's what I see over and over and over...........
yeah we are working through a mediator and family/co-parenting councilor.
I still don't want the divorce but she's moved on to greener pastures. quite literally, as you'd expect would have been the case...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Why do people bother with the 'L' in the phrase?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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"yeah we are working through a mediator and family/co-parenting councilor."
Right on man, it's the best you can do: wishing for a happy outcome for you all.
You too Klimmer.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Lambone.... best of luck to you.
I would recomend that you get an Attorney.... your future EX sounds like she is a first class B.... once thay start talking to one... their mind gets changed... they will want it ALL.
So don't go to a GUN FIGHT armed with a rock.
You will loose.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, matt... now... this time is very crucial for you to find the good points in you, that YOU know can't be 'questionable' to your OWN self-esteem...
and then, use each day to build yourself onto a new trail... stay with a few good buddies, DO something each day that you really like:
a hike, a climber, a bike ride, out to supper with a buddy and talk cars, or climbing, or whatever...
each day, you will get stronger in the new trail and you won't slip when the 'haunts' of the divorce drift to hang over you like a dark dreary memory-or-reminder cloud...
do something helpful for a friend, build your friendships, TALK with someone, to get your feelings out and build new feelings about the new trail, to get you grounded and anchored...
this way, when the situation really starts to cave in, you WILL have a strong bridge built, leading you over to solid ground... new grounds, ... friends... and things to do, that you have been doing, that YOU like and that make the day a new kind of joy...
and, forgive her... forgive you... and pray...
and, thus when it is time and you see your kids, your kids will be happy with the dad that they see... and their future will have some hope, as to you, for when you are adults etc... :)
will sure be praying for you...
we are ALL greatoutdoors folks here, we have seen new fresh life, after the storms, even storms that have taken down much...
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Thanks neebs, been doing that every day. Seeing friends, riding my bike, climbing in the gym, skiing soon. Being a good Dad. I'm seeing therapists regularly, crying a lot, involved with a support group for left behind spouses, crying more. Processing this grief that is sometimes seemingly unbearable.
I know that at this crossroads I have taken the high road. I will be proud of my actions in this moment. I will make mistakes, and I will correct them.
I will keep the light house lit, the torch alive. I will support her journey as best I can, in hope that someday she sees me there. Standing. With our children. Waiting for Mom to come home.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Lambone, the way you are handling this is impressive. I hope you know how many support you here on st.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Dec 20, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
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Still moving one day at a time...the hurt is still present but subsiding...I'm moving on with my life and know I'll be happier for it in the end.
The holidays will be tough as I've decided to go back to her house for a kids Christmas party and Christmas morning for the kids. Painful to be in my old home knowing its no longer something I can call home. I know her decision is a big mistake and someday she will be left to face that reality on her own...and relieved I don't have to shoulder that burden. Ultimately it's our daughters who will suffer the most heartache.
As sad as I am about the situation, it's a great relief not living a double life any longer...the Me I am vs the Me she wanted me to be.
I've been reflecting hard on the "whys" of how I hadn't been living up to her expectations over the last couple years. All the reasons she uses for ammunition against me now. And it comes down to the fact that I just didn't care anymore. I gave up trying to please her and make her happy because the reasons she isn't are out of my control. I know all she can do to justify herself is put it all on me now. And I won't carry her burden of judgment any longer. As I work toward detachment a greater sense of relief and calm comes over me.
I know it will take more time, but I also know that I am happy with myself in my own life. That I can be alone. That I will embrace and have more time for the things I love. And the people I love. And through this I have become a better father as well. So I need to view it as a gift.
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weezy
climber
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Dec 20, 2013 - 04:36pm PT
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you are a good guy, lambone.
remember, one pitch at a time...next thing you know you're heading down the east ledges, wondering what route to do next.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Dec 20, 2013 - 05:29pm PT
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you are not alone my friend, we all feel your pain,
holidays can be tough but there will be over soon,
when you get through this maybe you can help us when we feel the pain,
because life hits everybody,
it is what gets you up in the morning,
to see what the hell is next!
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Dec 20, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
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Dr.Spock & Neebee +1
This can be a terrible time of year for anyone in your situation. I went through an Xmas period, and it was very lonely. Everything you put behind you gets you closer to being whole again, my friend.
Forget about taking the high road and being good, . . . be well. Just be well.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Dec 24, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
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omg, I can't wait until Christmas is over...
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 24, 2013 - 03:31pm PT
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Lambone, if I could do it, you can do it.
Worth repeating as I'm part of that club. It is tough, but it does get better. Thinking of you.
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Dec 24, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
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Dec 24, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
Lambone, if I could do it, you can do it.
Worth repeating as I'm part of that club. It is tough, but it does get better. Thinking of you.
Ditto. There's a lot of internal work to healing, plus time, but there are gonna be periods where you just have to grunt through and survive. Especially early on, but holidays and other triggers will drag up hard feelings for a long while. The good news, hard as it may be to believe, is that these feelings eventually soften. So know that you have that to look forward to, resolve yourself to simply endure for right now, and you can do this.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Dec 24, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
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hey there say, lambone...
like what tami said:
it can be even keeled, or it can be an emotional wound...
you have to look at christmas as just a day...
like when a party comes, or any celebration--it is just a
day 'set aside' to do what 'is varied, according to family'...
thus, when my ex son in law got divorced and his first christmas
came and all the OLD traditions of what he did his wife and her family and his family, he did not want to be hurt by them, emotionaly, so,
he MADE different new plans to be a treat for his kids...
he got his turn for the holiday and since he DID have time to plan ahead by a about 3 months, ? he was at least into NEW habits with friends...
and with his kids, when they came over...
he was everything he used to be for them, as to taking them to eat, taking them places to get things, etc.. and playing with them in the yard and letting them do karioki in the playroom/basement, etc...
so, on christmas, he enjoyed his brother's family first and then did things that made his girls happy and THAT was a christmas that 'locked in' the fact that his girls STILL loved him and that holiday would STILL be speical, JUST on his day, on his terms when they came over...
the old ways DO get washed over with CLEAN fresh water and the new ways become enjoyable, you will see...
but you have make a plan...
MAKE something special for when you have the kids... plan now...
get a model airplane? get a tea set, if a girl and learn how to make a 'daddies' tea for daughter, at teh house...
use your imagination... and have a second christmas at your home... EVEN if it is after the new year...
we are rooting for you... don't let the waves of dispair overwhelm... become master of your ship, and let god steer your heart...
you will learn how to manage storm seas, far too empty calm seas, and the new wonderful kid-time seas, as well...
god bless... happy NEW christmas and more to come...
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Dec 24, 2013 - 08:08pm PT
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One of the most amazing things about human beings is how we can go through heartbreak and get up, dust ourselves off, and Love all over again. When in the depths of despair, that idea doesn't seem like any great thing, but truly, I believe it says huge things about the power of the heart to heal and to thrive.
I send Love to all reading this thread at this difficult time of year.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Dec 24, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
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Thanks everybody. Playing with my band at a local pub tonight. I'd rather be with my family, but in absence of that...music soothes the soul.
Sucking up the hurt to go back to my old house with stbxw and the kids in the am for "her" Christmas, then bringing them back to my place four ours. Got tons of cool stuff for daddies place!
Marry Christmas 'Taco brothers and sisters. Hope to see ya in the Ditch soon.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Dec 24, 2013 - 11:25pm PT
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lambone-
Good for you for getting out there tonight and playing some music.
Keep that positive energy going.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Dec 24, 2013 - 11:41pm PT
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Lambone, I am pulling for you; you got it man!
Speaking about mine own life here - singleness can be shitty this time of year, and the near-loss of those associated with the union (for me, my dog-child) could be nearly crippling. But the dog-child loves me anyway: the rest is up to me. To be great or just to be?
Keep being the great father that you obviously are. Keep fueling yourself with climbing, music, whatever sustainable outlet you can find: because you ARE a valuable and worthwhile FATHER.
To myself, and to all for whom it applies: Keep doing it. It will get better.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Dec 25, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
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Working on it Warbler. One day at a time. Each day seems to get a bit easier.
Last nights gig was amazing!
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Dec 26, 2013 - 02:54am PT
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hey there say, lambone...
great to hear from you... and that you are 'doing, and letting yourself, be you' while the 'father part' of yourself, waits its turn, for the kids...
as to this, from thebravecowboy:
Keep being the great father that you obviously are. Keep fueling yourself with climbing, music, whatever sustainable outlet you can find: because you ARE a valuable and worthwhile FATHER.
To myself, and to all for whom it applies: Keep doing it. It will get better.
my ex-son-law, just came by, early eve, of christmas eve... (his second divorce and though BOTH hurt deeply and badly, this second he realy was shocked by) well--every time the kids are with him, they move as a UNIT and with a bond and growth that makes him 'feel like king of the moutain':
knowing he got through the other divorce, he manned up:
he has been the BEST dad... he knows that while relationships may not work, due to some 'things he wants to keep in his life' well, HIS RELATIONSHIP with his kids IS not AFFECTED if--but he worked at it:
he keeps himself strong, and open and THERE for them...
both times, the ex's and him, were seeking 'smooth sailing' and not
fights, so, THAT is a plus for them...
after the shock, the kids have had the nurture of the moms, daily, but:
every weekend, the dad is STILL there, still being 'the tree trunk' that they did (while mom's tend to be the meadows, etc)...
these kids love being with their dad so much that they have stepped over the past pain and 'grown new gardens with dad'...
the key here is:
for both sides to not tear down the bond that the kids ALREADY have...
so:
start your NEW garden, lambone... and one day, you will be so
surprised at the new crop, :O
childhood, growing bonds, will LAST through into their adulthood and after all, WE may get hurt, but we can work it out if we do so for them, first and ours WILL settle... when you HAVE kids, what we do IS for them:
with 'them' as your goal, you won't go wrong...
(well, unless you spoil them rotten, but then, that is a different story) ;)
god bless the new year with new and different ways to shine!!
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Dec 26, 2013 - 12:48pm PT
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Ya Neebee, DMT...
Being the best dad I can, it's not hard, comes naturally. My 3+4 year old daughters and I have a great connection. Taking them with my mom to Tahoe over NYE for a big family reunion. Will be the first time wife has spent 4 days away from her girls.
This is funny...
http://youtu.be/J1eAfpekWgQ
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Climber Joe
Trad climber
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Kids will be affected, but they are resilient and strong. I divorced when kids were 7 and 8. Now they are almost driving age. Tears at first. But they know deep inside that I am there for them. They have other things to think about. No longer we v. dad, but I v. life.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Being the best dad I can, it's not hard, comes naturally. My 3+4 year old daughters and I have a great connection.
Gets trickier around 16........
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Damn it's nice that the holidays are over.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Looks like I'll be divorced by the end of the month!!! Crazy stuff.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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So sorry to hear that, Lambone. I had hoped she would come to her senses. Your kids are so lucky to have you. Hang in there.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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She won't, she's gone. I'm standing for our marriage and family but it's futile, she's checked out in the fantasy...convinced I am the one to blame for her fundamental unhappiness in life. Will likely never understand that another person can never bring you complete happiness within yourself, though she thinks she's found it. Oh well, it's a shame.
She's giving me a fair enough deal and joint custody. I'm getting tons of support and am doing pretty good. Bringing it home and finding myself again...my home is in my heart, not her house. Realizing how lost I've been in her world. Getting to know myself again and becoming a better father for it.
I am a man that, despite all the sh*t she's throwing my way... the disrespect, the secrecy and the blame..., who is still willing to love her, stand by her side and be the husband and father I am supposed to be. Let that eat at her very soul as she vainly tries to find a replacement that can reach such a high standard. As she wanders aimlessly through the fog, giving up our family and dreams...even her own dreams by leaving me...I'll keep the lighthouse lit. But there is no telling for how long, it's likely my shining beam of light will be pointed toward someone else in the future.
Love this quote:
"I might not be someone's first choice, but I am a great choice. I don't pretend to be someone I'm not, because I'm good at being me. I might not be proud of some of the things I've done in the past, but I am proud of who I am today. I may not be perfect, but I don't need to be. Take me who I am, or watch me walk away."
Talking to a random guy on the street the other day about my sitch, and he told me, "don't ever take no tattoo to eat." Took me a minute to wrap my head around it. But he's right, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch...and homey will soon enough see her mark upon him, as mine quickly fades away.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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"don't ever take no tattoo to eat."
OK. I'll bite. What does that mean? Sure it wasn't just the whiskey doing the talking?
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speelyei
Trad climber
Mohave County Arizona
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12 or 13 years ago, after a particularly long (months, maybe a year) period without sex, I sat my ex wife down and said "we need to talk".
We met when she was 18, and she had a two year old daughter, Josie. I was 22. We got married a few years later, and had the sort of speed bumps you'd expect.
So we talk, and her response, five years into our marriage, "I'm not in love with you. I never was."
So we decided to not do anything immediately. We'd stay together, and "work on things". For her, that meant going out and getting laid that very night. The best part was? Everybody else knew before me. Turns out she had been prowling around, for months, maybe years, and nobody had been friend enough to clue me in. I thought I was being supportive of her career and aspirations!
Well, I did me some thinking. I divorced her immediately. And then I cried and cried. Not about her, but about the disintegration of our little family and the failure of it all. Had myself a good old cry and about a year of solitary living. Moved out to the coast on my little sailboat, finished my apprenticeship and got my Journeymans card, picked up surfing, quit climbing...
I'm not somebody who likes to make the same errors twice.
I realized what I was mostly missing was the image or idea that I wanted to see... When I met that chick, I imprinted all the good qualities I was looking for on her, and ignored a lot of serious red flags. That also meant I must be ignoring the "real" person that was there...
To cut this personal melodrama down to size... Josie still calls me Dad, and has grown ino a beautiful, smart, healthy young woman herself.
The ex-wife met someone as materialistic, short sighted, and dysfunctional as her, and they spend most of their time soused in West Portland at cheesy social engagements where they talk about everything except where their kids are.
I met that small town girl who doesnt know what a catch she is... We have two daughters (Josie makes three), and my life now has so totally eclipsed my old marriage, it almost seems like it never happened. I identified shortcomings and bad behavior in myself and corrected some and am working on the rest. Thats really all you can do.
Everybody's personal opera is different, so I'm not offering advice. I post my tale as an example that things will pass with time, and likely get better. Good luck to you. Focus on your kids. And I guess I will offer some advice. Dont talk bad about your ex to your kids. Dont talk about her at all unless they ask, and then give only honest and neutral answers.
Good luck to you.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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speelyei
Great post four or so up.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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The best revenge it is said, is living well. Git yerself a smart fun smoking well built young hottie who likes nothing more than banging you 24/7 and fulfilling your sick fantasies till you cry uncle and the ex will be about as noticeable as a tick on an unmentionable place and she won't even be noticeable in yer rearview mirror except when you see yer kids.
Good luck!!!
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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TWP,
The guy that told me "don't ever take no tattoo to eat." Was a divorced ex-con, and also one of the most amazing strangers I've ever met. We had a loooong talk and yeah drank a little ;)
I think his phrase was something he picked up in the pen, and probly had something to do with the gang culture in there.
Basically he was saying, don't ever be someone's bitch just so you can live. Make your own way.
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WBraun
climber
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There's only one side to this drama you are presenting here Lambone.
Your side.
I wanna hear her side here.
Will this be happening to balance the scale?
Doubt it ......
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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she's checked out in the fantasy...convinced I am the one to blame for her fundamental unhappiness in life. Will likely never understand that another person can never bring you complete happiness within yourself, though she thinks she's found it. Oh well, it's a shame.
Whoa.....that's creepy...Deja F*#kin' Vu!!!
Dude, you just described exactly, my break up.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Well Werner, fair enough...
I spent too much time on El Cap for one. And I know how you feel about that. I spent too much of her money on myself. She says she has no trust in my or faith in my ability to provide for her. (As if that's changed since she first met me)
I was poor at communicating with her about these issues. Felt criticized and stonewalled her and things went south quickly. Heard of the Four Horseman of the Appocolypse in regards to relationships? Criticism, Defensiveness, Contempt, and Stonewalling. They were all present on both sides. I learned a lot through self discovery analyzing these behaviors.
Yet while I wanted to get professional help and work on the marriage, she was already in the next pasture. Too little too late. I'm still working on myself with a professional, to avoid these mistakes in my next relationship.
I made mistakes, owned up to them, and repented. In her eyes it was all too little too late, even though we still have 15 years of raising children together.
So that's the gist. I will not shoulder all the burdon of her blame and judgment for breaking up our family.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Very honest sounding self criticisim on your part Lambone.
She had likely decided to move on before you were aware there was a major problem.
Time to move on, sounds like you are still holding on a bit.
I've been where you are, you will be amazed at what is out there waiting for you.
I'm currently 17 years into a wonderful relationship.
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Gerg
Trad climber
Calgary
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Sorry to hear Lambone, but as time goes on it will get better.
Divorced twice. Was with the first lady 12 years, have a 10 year old son together. First two years rough now we are better friends than before, son was 3 when we split so he only remembers us apart and seems fine.
Second together 5 years, glad that is over.
Now I found my soulmate, been together 14 months, neither of us want marriage, more kids, live in seperate homes, never fight, just love each others company, and I climb she goes and jogs. Met online dating, i could not be happier, she is awesome, glad I logged on one night to the internet!!
Good luck and don't let her take your home, get her to buy you out for sure if that is in the cards.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Ck Lewis is super funny. That divorce bit has nearly saved my life a few times.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Lets hook up sully!!
In preeeetty sure that she'd be more then happy to give me the kids on Valentines Day, I think it's already scheduled even. I could give a F about that day anyway.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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what better place to display your vulnerabilities
than on an infinite landscape comprised of complete
strangers?
i like risk, so
my wife and i are reducing our love to utility.
i've got a cute cabin out back that is mine;
she the main house.
f*#k it, it's affordable and we share the rearing
responsibilities and hopefully don't have to
tangle our vines much.
i know it won't work, i've seen it attempted
around the community. ugly separation
and division of assets is really the ultimate
destination for us.
but i'm game to entertain sugarcoated disasters.
i considered hanging my self from a meat hook,
but that'll shatter my darlings' hearts.
so i'll be warm for a while more and
scrape a smile from the burnt emotions that are
mine, overcooked.
it's cool it means i can drink again.
the only reason that i was clean was in attempt to salvage my failing marriage.
i can't wait until all the money's gone.
liberations and libations'll abound.
like they did before i subscribed to this domestic discipline.
growing old and weak with no one by my side,
is exactly the compromised stride
that i fear but it is the one that i'll author.
slack,
norwegian
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Leggs
Sport climber
Tucson, by way of California
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Weege... {{sad face}}
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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i still turn 40 next october.
the gig is still on, though slightly modified.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Sorry to hear this, weege. Careful with the self-medication, though. We need you here.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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sorry to hear...
we should all be hermits. to hell with love and companionship. that's what pets are for.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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kind thoughts your way, 'weege.
take care of you.
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Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
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Sorry to hear that, Norwegian.
Don't despair. Black holes can spit up something good.
You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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I'm so sorry. That rudderless, drifting feeling....then a shoreline always seems to appear...
Susan
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Weege said: "i've got a cute cabin out back that is mine;
she the main house.
f*#k it, it's affordable and we share the rearing
responsibilities and hopefully don't have to
tangle our vines much.
i know it won't work, i've seen it attempted
around the community. ugly separation
and division of assets is really the ultimate
destination for us."
Perhaps. Perhaps knott. My aunt and uncle did this for over 30 - 40 years or so. He bought a small log cabin and hauled it up to the farm on the back of a flatbed truck. Put it on the other side of the garden. It was pretty rustic, and showers for him were few and far apart, he had to pump water at the old hand pump. Their front doors face each other so coming and going they were looking right at the others domicile.
They saw each other all the time (outside, like weeding the garden). Later, after things had emotionally calmed down, sometimes on a rare occasion she'd invite him over for dinner. She was the best cook in the valley, being Austrian and all, he was extra careful to not mess up the house (one of her big peeves -the other was his drinking which he stopped), and would take off his boots before entering. They never divorced. They never lived together again but they always went to family functions together. They had pretty happy lives it seemed. I guess it's all in how you define things......they didn't give a rats ass on social convention or what others thought about their strange setup.
Good luck man.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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For god's sake, Norwegian, what the hell do you think your drinking does to your beloved children? It will destroy parts of them. You will not be there for them when they need you. What would happen if something happened to your wife, your kids came running to you for help and you were drunk? What kind of impact would that have? Kids don't get over that kind of sh#t, it has an impact that can last years into adulthood.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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WTF is truthful about the booze, man. Keep up the sobriety or at least moderate until your heart feels less pain. Booze delays and INTENSIFIES the bad feelings, for me at least.
And there will be other partners, female leaders, to keep the rope taught for you in the future buddy.
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Fletcher
Gym climber
A very quiet place
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Norwegian: You may not be husband and wife any longer. Your ex may be terror on earth. You may feel YOU are terror on earth. These are all big things to deal with, grieve, get help for, ignore, etc.
But one thing has not changed and perhaps will help you sort all of the other things that wear on you: Both you and your wife are still and will always be the parents of your kids. That will never change. You may have your differences, but please, for the sake of those girls, work hard to do your parenting together. I speak from experience. It's hard work, but really paid off for my daughter, former wife, and me.
Peace,
Eric
P.S. And a corollary: Try to be present for those girls, figuratively and physically. Not having a dad (or mom) is a huge burden for any kid. I also speak from experience here... my own father is still alive, but has not been present (his choice) for many years now.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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You can end a marriage, but if you have kids, the most potentially challenging part of marriage (i.e. raising children together) persists.
Weegie, when you think about getting drunk to avoid dealing with your problems, think about your high-school age daughters doing the same. If that doesn't give you some sort of motivation to be a role model, to think beyond your own pain, well, I don't know where it goes from there but nowhere good.
My mom was an alcoholic and multi-drug addict. Her wake-up call was me entering junior high years and briefly experimenting. I'm not sure how much her getting her sh!t together made a difference in me not getting sucked into that stuff, but I think it did make a big difference in my life. I thank her for that. Whatever screw-ups are in the past, there is always room for things to get better or worse, based on the choices you make every day. One day at a time.
If you make a mistake and fall down, get the feck back up and keep trying.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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For god's sake, Norwegian, what the hell do you think your drinking does to your beloved children? It will destroy parts of them. You will not be there for them when they need you. What would happen if something happened to your wife, your kids came running to you for help and you were drunk? What kind of impact would that have? Kids don't get over that kind of sh#t, it has an impact that can last years into adulthood.
Whatever screw-ups are in the past, there is always room for things to get better or worse, based on the choices you make every day. One day at a time.
If you make a mistake and fall down, get the feck back up and keep trying.
Word.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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it's cool it means i can drink again.
the only reason that i was clean was in attempt to salvage my failing marriage.
Being there for your kids isn't a reason for staying clean and sober?
If you're going to stay but be a drunk, it might be better if you're not part of their life.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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you folks are not complete strangers,
and that is why i slap my weak hand down on your table.
i don't give a f*#k if i've not met most of you,
we share a kinship of the mountain-lore,
and also the kinship of real-life mishaps and struggles.
thank you for your considerations and donations of wisdom.
there should be a money pot of sorts that i can
drop some bills into as a gesture of thanks to my good peers, here.
yea i'll carry out my year goal of being sober.
and the more i get into it, the more it, sobriety,
accepts me, and i honestly consider not going back there,
but i don't know.
i've got good friends here that would open their property
to me, im sure.
i'm considering undertaking
an open-bivy approach to my turns with the kids.
if someone will rent me a patch of land, oh i can make it happen.
separation is likely the next chapter of my travels.
it's scary and uncertain but i look forward to learning
what lessons this new challenge will grant me.
take,
norwegian
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Good man, Norwegian, you are showing much better thinking.
There's a wealth of support on this thread for how much better things can be after the worst is over.
Stay strong
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Hang in there man. Sometimes it hurts so bad that it ain't funny, and then when it hurts a little more, it gets funny again.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Edit: And on a serious note... one of the keys for me to break out of my negative patterns is to have compassion for myself. That doesn't mean to condone whatever things I'm doing that I don't want to be doing... it means to recognize that negative self-judgment is part of a cycle, and the cycle can be more easily broken by focusing on that point. The negative cycle: mess something up, judge self badly, have justification that I'm not worthy of love, belonging, appreciation, etc... give up and stew in the negative behavior, or pursue some sort of avoidance tactic (e.g. whatever is your chosen addiction), which further reinforces the negative self-judgment and reactive behaviors.
So for me, the way to fix this stuff, after breaking the cycle at the point of self-judgment and guilt/shame, is to focus on the core needs of love, belonging, appreciation, and to figure out what is triggering me to feel a deficit of those things, and how I can deal with those issues on an emotional plane after I have identified them mostly in an intellectual plane (with a little help from listening to my inner voice, spirit, intuition, or what have you).
I came to this way of approaching it after years of analyzing my repeating patterns, recognizing what was coming, and trying but failing to use more will-power to change my part in the cycle. But in the critical moments my brain would slip into fight-or-flight mode, intellect turned off, and the pattern repeats. At some point I came to facing what was happening in the emotional space that rendered my intellect unusable at the moments I really needed it. It works.
I tend to over-share here on this kind of stuff, but it is a sort of gospel I want to spread because it has made such a positive difference in my life. I think we all keep learning lessons throughout our lives, but I am in so much of a better place now, and I was so frustrated/angry/hopeless for so long, that I hope this perspective I'm sharing will give hope to others.
Edit edit:
One thing I do regret, is that my ex-wife and I didn't sit down together and explain things to our children together, to help manage their expectations and give it a more healthy spin. I wanted to, but my ex was of the mindset "you left me, so you're leaving the kids too." If you still have a civil relationship with ex and can at least agree to figure out how best to manage the transition for the kids, I advise having this conversation now. There's a decent chance that adult relationships will deteriorate and it's good to set the foundation for the kids in a more healthy way while you have the chance. Problems related to this led to an extra 4 years of rockiness in my kids' relationship with me, much more to their long term detriment than to mine (though it has been quite painful for me), and it is only now when they are a little older to have deeper emotional conversations with me (and have more access to me after years of legal fighting to make it happen), that things are consistently better between us. Time will tell how it all plays out.
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H
Mountain climber
there and back again
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Good luck to all who are going through this kind of thing. It ain't easy for anybody.
Wedge, Hang in the Bro. There is nothing Booze will make better. Surly no one can miss puking on them selves etc.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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hoping you can settle things peacefully Norwegian. Booze anin't the answer, that's fer certain.
Things are looking up in my world. Divorce is eminent, but were maintaining a civil composure and things are mostly settled. I'm gunna be alright. New opportunities, friends and adventures are popping up left and right. It's hardest on my little girls but they are hanging tough and I'm rocking fatherhood like never before...
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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we all grow, of hardship.
im glad to hear of yours, mr. nut-again.
and of lambone's progress as a father.
i'm the one that asked for this separation.
our's struggle is of the parental variety.
my wife and i truely adore one-another.
love is thick and sweet between us.
though i've a vein of anger, within me.
it comes out most at times when i'm thin:
too little sleep, too much stress, too little self maintenance (climbing),
and then the difficult child rears some hearty emotional development all at once and i stumble, and swear.
i've never raised a hand on any of the girls in my life, and i am very proud of that.
the drinking, way back when (4 months ago) would lubricate the expression of this anger, so i stopped.
we've had a smooth two months, which is a great stroke of progress.
last weekend, i was tore out of an afternoon nap by some trying display from the 10 year old.
i uttered, "f*#king kid," to no one in particular.
the wife heard this, her eyes turned red, and the rest of the day only got worse.
other than an occasional immature uttering, i'm a bitchen dad.
i really am. i help, i deliver. i treat. i teach. i challenge. i motivate. i adore. i praise. i lead. and i follow them.
i've got one last wish in my heart, regarding this relationship.
the delivery of this wish could well-save the limping thing. i'm gonna put that wish on my wife this morning. and let her make of it what she will.
my last ultimatum is a wish, and it is this:
i want her to, in ear shot of the children:
acknowledge my progress as a person (no booze, decreased expressions of anger, starting up two thriving companies;)
praise my efforts and accomplishments as a father;
recognize that this family needs me, immensely;
and tell me she loves me and will fight to keep me.
this may sound narcissistic, and it is.
but, swear i,
every last ditch effort that ever was in our family,
has been on my shoulders, begging for forgiveness in front
too many judgmental eyes.
and, honestly, i deserve their adoration and acclaim.
i too deserve their scrutiny and critisism,
but in the overall scorecard,
i as a father and as a husband have
delivered many, many more blessing that
i have delivered hardships.
i'd cross my fingers but i utterly hamburger-ed them yesterday
flip-lining a large dead tree in neighborhood proximity (at 200 bucks an hour BAM.)
cheers you ripples in calm water.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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I think you present that as your honest assessment, and ask her if she agrees.
Then express your concern that you feel the communication in front of the kids has been too negative, and that you would feel encouraged if she would put forth some positive words in front of them.
Somewhere in there you mention that you are still stumbling on the anger front, but feel it is improving and you are aware and working on it.
Good work on getting things turned around. Hopefully she sees it also.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say...
good to see the update, lambone! :)
nice email, too!
also, say, norwegian...
as to this quote, from clint, this does sound very good:
I think you present that as your honest assessment, and ask her if she agrees.
Then express your concern that you feel the communication in front of the kids has been too negative, and that you would feel encouraged if she would put forth some positive words in front of them.
Somewhere in there you mention that you are still stumbling on the anger front, but feel it is improving and you are aware and working on it.
Good work on getting things turned around. Hopefully she sees it also.
three cheers and keep up the good work... :)
it is true for all concerned:
fatherhood, motherhood and childhood respect,
it does all work together, with hearing support and
showing it for things done well... and talks of the hard times
and stuff, are nicer done with all sitting down at the table for
'family talks' instead of 'hashing and lashing out' at each other
through the house in front of kids...
so here's hoping for this dream of yours, 'daddy is meeting goals'
to come true, as to becoming part of homelife-shares, too...
:)
edit:
more nice words from fletcher, too:
But one thing has not changed and perhaps will help you sort all of the other things that wear on you: Both you and your wife are still and will always be the parents of your kids. That will never change. You may have your differences, but please, for the sake of those girls, work hard to do your parenting together. I speak from experience. It's hard work, but really paid off for my daughter, former wife, and me.
and nutagain!, too, sharing ... :)
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Those are some good looking hands Norwegian!
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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Unsolicited advice. Whereever you end up next, I agree, consider your kids. Don't get too caught Up to not consider compromise. You seem like early an air stream kind of guy. The mobility might be nice. Your daughters could help choose, and maybe decorate one too.
The woods are always there with their impermanence and changes of season. We all could use a guide at times who knows there is a way through.
Not to ground you, but the man might not understand the open bivy.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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this may sound narcissistic, and it is.
Yes. It is.
Turn those words around. Are you willing to say to your wife,in front of your children, that
 You have witnessed and admire HER progress as a person?
Praise HER efforts and accomplishments as a mother?
Recognize that the family needs HER. Immensely?
Tell HER you love her and will fight to keep her?
every last ditch effort that ever was in our family,
has been on my shoulders, begging for forgiveness in front
too many judgmental eyes.
That is utter, drunken-eyed, bullsh#t, Norwegian. Every effort... REALLY? What do you think the response would be if you added THAT little gem in with your demand to be hailed king? (I don't suggest you include it - I actually suggest you keep your trap shut about how great you are.)
You know what I think, Norwegian? I think the sobriety attempt(which you have not maintained) is hard. Maybe harder than you expected even possible. And I think your idea is really a camouflage to blow it all up. So that you can go drown in the booze and woe is me, fabulous me, yourself to death.
Here's the thing, Norwegian. It's an AA slogan, but it's pretty applicable the world over: What others think about me is none of my business.
The one who is judging you so harshly is your self. You're so busy pointing the fingers at others, thinking they are judging you, but it is really you judging them.
I am sorry to be the bitch with the balls enough to say it, but it's got to be said. Or you will not survive. And we need you to survive. And so does your wife, and so do your kids.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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No - not because he uttered "f*#king kid" and then Blammow.
Look. I am a drunk, and I'll always be one. No matter how many days I go without alcohol. It takes one to know one.
Alcohol is the medicine for a pain within, a pain that is still there, and always will be, for me. Like many medicines, alcohol has serious side effects. But, as they also say in AA. You can take the alcohol out of the alcoholic, but the Ick is still inside.
I see through the sh#t Norwegian's been posting over the years. This is not about one little line in one little post. But it IS a suggestion he avoid stepping into the GIGANTIC pothole in the road ahead of him. A pothole that he snuck out at night and dug up, and then intended to conveniently forget he did it.
For what it is worth, I think Norwegian has many fantastic qualities and has an incredible amount to offer. But his lantern's burning dim and he blows the flame to make it look a shining bright. Eventually, his lungs will give out if he don't stop with the flame fanning and tend to the coals.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Yesterday I saw 7 pychotherapy clients. 5 had parents who were alcoholic or addicted. The other 2 had a parent who was narcissistic. Parental behavior affects children.
I've never met a parent who got out of bed each morning thinking of how they could mess their kids up, it's usually the opposite, and yet, we Do mess them up, mostly because we won't take responsibility for our behavior. (And then we teach them to take responsibility for their behavior, what a mind-f@#k.
If you've made a mistake and intimated that your child is "f#ckin" anything, go and apologize to your child. Let them know that you were tired and stressed and that it had nothing to do with them and that you will be trying to work on that, although this kind of change is very hard for you, because you love them that much.
So often parents do not repair. And more often, parents do not address what changes need to be made so they won't take their sh#t out on their children. Children are patience-busters, for sure, that doesn't mean that they should shoulder the brunt of our lack of patience, especially when no effort has been exerted to let them know it isn't them with the problem but you.
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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my other 2cents:
I've known some very kind, high functioning alcoholics. I've known some very low functioning depressed individuals. Humans come in all types it seems.
For now, if you leave alcohol out of the equation, it is one less variable, if you are looking for a solution. Also, pragmatically, the man probably wouldn't look kindly on it either. Stopping for your family was a good bit of work.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Hey Weeg
Old man down, way down down, down by the docks of the city.
Blind and dirty, asked me for a dime, a dime for a cup of coffee.
I got no dime but I got some time to hear his story.
My name is august west, and I love my pearly baker best more than my wine.
More than my wine - more than my maker, though hes no friend of mine.
Everyone said, Id come to no good, I knew I would pearly, believe them.
Half of my life, I spent doin time for some other f*#kers crime,
The other half found me stumbling round drunk on burgundy wine.
But Ill get back on my feet again someday,
The good lord willin, if he says I may.
I know that the life Im livins no good,
Ill get a new start, live the life I should.
Ill get up and fly away, Ill get up and fly away, fly away.
Pearlys been true, true to me, true to my dyin day he said,
I said to him, I said to him, Im sure shes been.
I said to him, Im sure shes been true to you.
Got up and wandered, wandered downtown, nowhere to go but just hang around.
Ive got a girl, named bonnie lee, I know that girls been true to me.
I know shes been, Im sure shes been true to me.
The shape it takes could be yours to choose
What you may win
What you may lose.
Good luck and keep your sh#t straight.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Chuck, I have followed this latest turn in your path and I see it as one you have chosen. I respect that. In the process, the adjustments that need to be made are not always clear. This is part of the process. Be sincere in your intent and the doubt and the guilt will have no room in your heart.
And those hands... I see a message that you need to do as much with your heart as you do with your hands. You already know how to do this. You are the Norwegian.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Good observations, happigrrrl and Daphne.
I especially like happigrrrl's observation about symmetry - how Norwegian should acknowledge his wife's efforts as well. It's part of completing self-awareness - putting yourself in the other person's perspective.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, ... more good input for you norwegian...
as to daphne:
If you've made a mistake and intimated that your child is "f#ckin" anything, go and apologize to your child. Let them know that you were tired and stressed and that it had nothing to do with them and that you will be trying to work on that, although this kind of change is very hard for you, because you love them that much.
So often parents do not repair. And more often, parents do not address what changes need to be made so they won't take their sh#t out on their children. Children are patience-busters, for sure, that doesn't mean that they should shoulder the brunt of our lack of patience, especially when no effort has been exerted to let them know it isn't them with the problem but you.
we are all rooting for success for you family, :)
life may be a hard sea, but with the 'many life-rafts' here,
we hope you can be mastering this sea, come storm, or rocky shores...
'captains' have to work hard, to get there, and the skills are precious...
you will be thankful for all you can accomplish, one day...
a step at a time... (if you slip due a certain 'lesson' REPEAT that lessons, or, it will just be worse down the line--THEN build up to next lesson...
yes, though, study ahead for the newer lessons on the horizon, but don't get too much to handle, as you move ahead...
keep asking for help if you need it... :)
(family table talks, and sharing, and all that is a good 'end of day'
sum up, as well)... good places to forgive, and repair things too...
edit:
say, after reading things from happiegrrrl, too...
i can add this:
many times the reason one parent may 'seem to always make the other' look bad, norwegian, is that it is built up, and done after years of frustrations at not seeing promises or changes met... and then, the other parent feels 'torn down' and 'send frustration at hearing this' right back to the other... dis will only see a fight, here...
like a ping pong game... volley after volly...
that is why having a table time to sit and talk, like a peace-table... or a little circle outside to sit down in and share, helps...
step in, or sit down, with leaving the 'emotions to cool' off to the trying to WIN and see what is wrong in the game-play and see if it can be solved in some other way, or tackle one weakness at a time and see if everyone can be allowed to help--however, then, everyone will have to agree to listen and 'stop and start' over, in making these new habits, if something goes wrong again...
instead of game volley--you get co-operation and be on the same team...
and volley as a couple, against world hardships, etc...
just a bunch of thoughts for you to bat around... :)
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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~40 is too late in life to fumble the ball. That's all I have to add.
Life is short, the ocean vast.
Go fix your sh#t, get the ball back, keep moving forward.
Love the AA comments. If that's what you need, then get the f*#k in there.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Ya, I told my wife that 36 w/2 kids is too late to start playin for the other team. Lotta good that did! I've been traded!
But that's ok, I'll be reaping the benefits of this newfound freedom soon enough!
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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Lambone, You will realize a couple of years down the road that.. ..36 is young... Wishing you much sweetness after this painful walk is finalized with your wife....
Some incredible observations from Happiegrrll... Daphne and Neebee....
Norwegian, For your families sake, i hope you get it right......
Best wishes all....
edit: Lambone, In the first sentence i wrote, i am only talking about your age. Second sentence, after your divorce is finalized..I wish you much sweetness.... .
saludos..
nita..
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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F that, I'm realizing now and letting go of the pain she's caused me! As I turn away from the darkness light surrounds me from all directions...
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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^^^^^^. Uh? Don't get that at all. There's been some pretty direct hard core messages laid down.
Enabling is hardly equivalent to an "I understand" post.
Susan
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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Happie states a strong truth. And Daphne for the kids. Both stated with compassion and care. Alcoholic thinking appears to me deep, destructive, defensive, narcissistic, isolating and blaming of self and others no matter how smooth and creative it looks on the outside. Love does not live there. It seems to me when one truly loves one's mate, one's family, one will throw away the egotistical self importance and the damaging thoughts and behaviors, not the love for one's mate because it cannot accommodate the negative, egotistical thinking or cure one's own "ick" ( the infinite denial of "I love you, but..") be brave enough to allow trust to grow so you can keep your family intact, Weege, yourself included.
honor to your insight, Happie, pm sent
thank you for your work in the world, Daphne, catch up with you soon too
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Nita,
Didn't mean to come off sounding agro toward ya!
All I meant was I'm not gunna stew in misery for two years like I have read so many stories from left behind spouses. I'm taking life by the horns and embracing all the good things I still have without my ex, which are many...and I have more time and freedom to explore them now!
Not denying that the feelings of sadness and loss will come and go for quite a while. Usually they are triggered by seeing my kids pain as they get handed back and forth.
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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Lambone, good for you!!.. . I wasn't offended , i just think you miss understood what i was trying to convey ...And all i meant was...You are only 36, which is young... After you get through signing the paper.....The year ahead is all yours......
ps..I think we understand each other now...(-;
Cheers....
and
Best wishes..
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Very much appreciate the kind thoughts.
Honestly it's support from online friends on the Taco and the LBS forum I'm on that have gotten me through the darkest of times.
My gratitude is overflowing.
And Daphne, thanks for the recommendation to go see Will. He's been my main mentor through this! Amazing man, like an old wise tortoise.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Lambone, it is so cool to see you posting up with a bright outlook towards the future. Cheers to you for being strong. I wish you much happiness going forward. Similar to what Nita is getting at, it only gets better from here on out!
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Lambone, you are very welcome. It always feels good to help and to hear that Will was a match makes me so happy for you and for him, for he gained a wonderful client.
Happie, you rock.
Nita, you too
Neebee, as per usual, your wisdom born from your life experience is shared with loving kindness.
Mo--It's Snowing!!! Next time you guys do a weekend at Kirkwood will you give me a heads up? I'd love to get out there. Will miss your mid-week fabulousness. Ive got an Epic pass that is still unused.
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Hey, Daphne,
I continue to be grateful for your referring me to Katherine.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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^^^Scuffy, I send a hug and a hope that I get to see you soon :) So glad Katherine is a good fit for you!
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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jesus, happi.
your criticism is a plane, inclined
and wrapped around a steely axis of thought.
why am i in the community vise?
scrutiny upon me, from every which way.
i adore the attention,
really i do.
but
a drunk does not fit in a brown bag,
like a tall beer does.
to each their own disease.
your relationship with reality is secure,
and mine is aloof.
plus, you've no kids.
how in the hell can you empathize with my situation?
you cannot.
as i cannot harmonize with your song.
i'll drink again, someday.
i will always flip over realities
and peer at their belly.
nevers. and always.
forevers and love.
i do not subscribe to absolutes.
i am trained to die.
it's just what i do best.
i'm not ashamed of my skill.
it has served me quite ill.
so i plan to celebrate, fully,
the gradual disorganization of my personal entity.
each cell is a privilege to kill.
i don't take their's murder, lightly.
by the way,
my wife is still at my side.
we are far from solid,
but i'd say we're teasing stable.
off belay!
norwegian
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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oh, and lambone,
while we're flinging about advice,
congratulations on your growing acceptance of
what was an originally undesirable situation.
but i offer you caution.
don't miss the opportunity to
recognize the faults within you that contributed to the
dissolution of your marriage.
tackle those beasts, tame them with some stun weapon,
and then arrive at the side of the next lucky gal
as a better man.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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but i offer you caution.
don't miss the opportunity to
recognize the faults within you that contributed to the
dissolution of your marriage.
tackle those beasts, tame them with some stun weapon,
and then arrive at the side of the next lucky gal
as a better man.
^ This is really great advice...some I wish I'd heard and heeded many years back. It would have saved me some additional bumps in the road.
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dirtbag
climber
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Indeed. In the process of splitting up last year I addressed some of my demons and have come out of the process a better man, and a better catch for the next lucky gal. Divorce brings a lot of pain but being free from the constraints of a bad relationship can also bring tremendous opportunities for growth, if you are willing to be unflinchingly honest with yourself. While my bed is emptier from the experience, my mind is clearer. I'll take the latter any day!
And btw, I spent a lot of time coming to terms with my parents' abuse of alcohol when I was a child. Yes, the consequences of being a child of an alcoholic can last a lifetime, even if you are the offspring of a "happy"drunk as my father appeared to be.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Norwegian, Lambone has been in weekly therapy in addition to group work to do just that. Are you in individual therapy working on your demons?
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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uhh. individual therapy?
i'm not seeing anyone if
that's what you're asking.
i'm all my own idiot.
brazen as moses,
parting my demons
and burning some bush.
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Anastasia
climber
Home
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I don't think one gets rid of demons. We just learn to deal with them, accept those flaws and make something useful out of them. As for splitting up? Each relationship I ever had was a success in teaching me a few lessons.
I left because in the long term it wasn't good but... Ending doesn't mean "bad" experience... It just mean the cycle is done. It is another step along this big road of life...
AFS
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dirtbag
climber
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Not to pile on, but I never, ever imagined myself going to therapy. "No way--I am not f*#ked up!" Lol!
But I went upon my ex's request over a year ago. And it was a very constructive experience, forcing me to confront issues I certainly did not want to address, especially my parents alcolohism, but which I had never fully addressed and were interfering with my happiness. In that respect my wife's request probably backfired, but that's another story. Anyway, it was tremendously helpful for me.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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There is a lot of variation in the quality of therapists. Results seem to be deeply dependent on how ready you (and the other party if there is one) are to deal with stuff, how much effort you are willing to put into it, and if you've got really unpleasant stuff to deal with, how courageous you are to face it.
My first leap in that direction was a self-prescribed anger management class to deal with my part of the crap in a destructive marriage. It helped me understand the fight/flight nature of my responses in specific situations, and how my efforts to "try harder" or use more will-power from an intellectual perspective often came to naught when a critical threshold was crossed. I went to an individual counselor who ultimately made me feel more angry and blaming toward my ex because my issues tapped into his own experience of issues and he went a bit overboard in validating my experiences/feelings. Maybe that's what I needed at the time. It was basically a place for me to start venting, but didn't help me take personal responsibility to fix stuff or increase my emotional maturity.
I tried marital counseling with my ex, but it was more or less a joke. We each are smart people and it was primarily an exercise in learning a new language and set of rules in which to camouflage our power struggle. We have since been in court-ordered co-parent counseling which I wanted, but that was easily subverted into a tool to obstruct the resolution of other issues inside the court room, and each venue can be used to delay the other to avoid reaching a resolution on issues in conflict.
The single most beneficial type of counseling for me, after I had an epiphany about not being able to resolve my problems in the intellectual domain (like the difference between reading about weight training vs. actual weight training to get strong), was a 8-day retreat to go full-on immersion in facing demons and childhood stuff. It made an astounding and lasting difference in how I understand things, and it diffused so many mental landmines waiting to be triggered in negative relationships. This process is what enabled me to survive a few extra years of marriage, but ultimately it is also what gave me the perspective and strength to walk away from an unhealthy situation and to seek something better for our kids.
I still have issues with not doing things I should do on an ongoing basis to keep myself emotionally in shape, and there are plenty of more life lessons for me to learn, but I'm glad I've overcome most of my fear of judgment associated with the therapeutic process.
It is still a stigma in our society, perhaps borne of fear of admitting that there is something wrong with us. This indicates the level of ignorance in our society about emotional health and literacy. We are not embarrassed to say we go to school to learn about math or english or science... why should we be embarrassed to admit that we aren't born knowing how to articulate our feelings, from whence they arise, and how to manage them in the context of our relationships with other people? Many if not most of us get crappy examples from our parents, and no other education short of what we learn by trial and error in failed relationships, the learning of which causes such deep hurts that we have to abandon the relationship and declare emotional bankruptcy and hope for the best with the next person.
The good thing is that there are tons of books out about this stuff now, tons of classes, and enough people who believe in emotional development that you can create a support system around yourself of like-minded individuals, or at least find some anonymous forum to supplement the lack of a real-life support system (sort of like this thread is doing).
Anyways, I'm just sharing this to try to erode the stigma of seeking an emotional education in whatever form is most helpful to you.
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John M
climber
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great post nutagain. lots of good points.
Norwegian, I think Happigirls post was spot on. So was Daphne's and Sullly's. That is of course my opinion.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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I hear your solid advice norweigan, and I have been doing the work. At first it was in the name of winning her back...as it's developed I know it's more for my own personal future.
I wasn't perfect for sure, had some low times in the recent past where I lost sight of the big picture. Fell back on old patterns inherited from my father and parents relationship, because it's always easier to deal with tough situations in the ways you know best, which aren't always the best ways. I know I've learned from those mistakes and will face a lifelong challenge of not falling back into those destructive patterns.
At the same time I know I didn't deserve all the blame, and won't except it, for as the old true cliche goes...it takes two to tango. In my opinion is there is no excuse for bailing on your spouse, when you have children...just because things aren't perfect, without a collaborative effort of working on it, especially when the deep love is still there.
And I don't climb with bailers...I'd rather soldier on up the Big Stone alone.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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why am i in the community vise?
Because you keep offering up your plans.
This suggests to many that you are interested in a second opinion.
plus, you've no kids.
how in the hell can you empathize with my situation?
you cannot.
If somebody has to match all the dimensions of your life,
in order to make a reasonable observation about one dimension of your life,
then nobody understands anything about you.
Really, you could dismiss everyone's experience with this type of requirement.
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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kudos to the weegee if he has been absent on the net while present with his family
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
|
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change is a gawdamn blessing.
recently the anchorage for the front step to my cabin failed,
and the step deflected slightly.
actually it sunk like 3 inches.
i did not hasten to repair it,
instead i considered the symbolism,
hoping for a crack in the universe thru which i could slither.
and i found this:
the broken step leads to a door,
which is a threshold that i cross many times a day.
the passing of this threshold had become a habit,
that i executed thru a thoughtless and conditioned routine.
now, after the uninvited adjustment,
i have to rethink my step;
make it 3" shorter on the first stride,
and 3" taller to the summit.
cool. i'll leave it, even though american code tells
me not to.
so everyone go outside in the rain and beat the f*#k out of your
front step. and when your partner or your neighbor inquires unto your
suspect behavior, jest tell them that wisdom is not static,
and must be pursued thru new intrigue.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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you are very flattering, kat.
my thoughts enjoy erratic flow.
i move them out best in the morning.
i don't apply a scientific or calculated
approach to my expressions.
all from the hip, sans organization.
when i log off supertopo,
i have to engage the uninspired
side of my mind,
in a calculated and critical method.
it kills me.
but death and life are hopelessly in love,
no matter how much i try to pry
them apart by interrupting their
monogamous relation.
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Gilwad
climber
Frozen In Somewhere
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Norwegian, your comments make Supertopo a better place by far.
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Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
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Feb 10, 2014 - 06:01pm PT
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Divorce is not a bad thing in itself. It's upsetting while it happens.
It's also freedom.
Most men I know who are unmarried again, look for a new wife.
Most women don't. They look for lovers or live-aparts or intimate close friends. Eating the cookie and still keeping it. Having someone and solitaryness at the same time.
Not sure why it is this way.
I can think of a couple reasons though.
The above doesn't apply to young people.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 12, 2014 - 02:29am PT
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Lollie, you know the reason is that men are weak, period.
BTW, I played chess with one of your compatriots online yesterday.
His 'handle' was surlykke. LOL!
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Mar 25, 2014 - 11:54pm PT
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Quick update, divorce papers are signed.
I'm seeing the light of it all, and will be happier, so will she likely.
Oh, and I met a girl, and she's awesome. ;)
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Rankin
Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
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Mar 26, 2014 - 12:00am PT
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Now that's what I'm talking about Lambone! Separation and divorce can be really gnarly, but it can lead to such wonderful things.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Mar 26, 2014 - 12:03am PT
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Quick update, divorce papers are signed.
I'm seeing the light of it all, and will be happier, so will she likely.
Oh, and I met a girl, and she's awesome. ;)
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Mar 26, 2014 - 01:01pm PT
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I quit drinking during a troubled marriage. The marriage eventually ended (amicably, I'm happy to report) but I never drank again, and that's been a real gift. Sure, I went back and forth about whether I was a real boozer or not - should I 'control it', blah blah, but after the fact - none of that mental masturbation mattered at all. It was just so much simpler not to pour it down the pie hole.
For such a good solvent it doesn't seem to offer up many solutions. Plus, that sh#t is a Super Supplement For Fat Phuks. A cooworker once called it Liquid Aging. Go to a high school reunion and you can instantly pick out who's been hittin' the sauce and who hasn't. Wow.
Now I actually have to go out and rustle up a bout of food poisoning to feel nauseous or smack my head to get a headache.
Thank you, Darlin'! Still love ya! (just in that, you know, ex hubby kinda way).
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Mar 26, 2014 - 04:47pm PT
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Lambone..... good for you.
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Mar 29, 2014 - 09:15pm PT
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Marriage turns happy people sad. Divorce makes sad people happy. That's cynical, huh? It's the divorce support page and the fact is that you were miserable together and your spouse was lame ;)
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Mar 29, 2014 - 10:45pm PT
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hey there say, lambone... good to hear you are done with another one of the hard parts... keep checking in, if you need any help, etc, or encouragement... :)
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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Jul 31, 2014 - 05:47am PT
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it took a good girl leaving me
to surmount this phase of the dream.
i stand higher upon the most unlikely events.
we are keeping this thing civil,
so last night we all (her and i and the children)
met for dinner.
i sat next to the missus and the girls
sat across the booth from us.
at one point she put her hand on my knee,
then recoiled it and apologized,
saying that it was only out of habit.
i responded,
"so it wasn't sincere?
that's like my heart beat.
it only happens these days
out of habit.
lacking sincerity
to thrust its ship onwards.
as a matter of fact,
sleeping with ear plugs the other night,
i could hear my heart,
distinctly lacking rhythm.
it sounded more like it was
falling off a shelf, and then
painfully getting back up,
climbing to it's potential,
and then falling off the shelf again.
thud. scrape. pause. thud.
i guess that's the sound of a broken heart."
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Jul 31, 2014 - 07:27am PT
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Excellent Couch.
I just divorced a red headed hair dresser....LOL
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overwatch
climber
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Jul 31, 2014 - 10:01am PT
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Losing your dog hurts more...by the time the splitting up thing happened for me I was just happy it was over and she was gone.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 31, 2014 - 10:09am PT
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Sure wish I had seen Couch's youtube. I am not cute, had not much money and married a Hot 0.75. I'm guessing that makes it a 5.16.
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Jul 31, 2014 - 02:38pm PT
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Heard a great cover of this today, but it brought me back to Loudon. Stay strong, peeps, and keep whistlin'.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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