Psicobloc Masters and Sexism

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maculated

Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 12, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
Hey guys, long time no chat . . . just got back from a wonderful trip to Courtwright as part of my friend's bachelor party (yay being the only girl) . . . and a friend was mentioning that he'd seen the coverage of Psicobloc and it was beyond disgustingly unprofessional and more alarmingly sexist so I decided to see for myself. The result is this article:

http://www.all-outevents.com/?p=753

Here's the take home if sexist comps don't interest you (but they should):

"But, it’s very easy to lay all the blame on the emcees they hired, but there’s a bigger factor at play, as revealed by the female emcee, Colette, 20 minutes into the clip: “Originally, they were going to cut out some of the women climbers. There were too many women climbers and they sent some of the women home, but in the end, all the girls said, ‘You know what, we want to compete, we’re all here – we’re going to compete’ and they ended up bringing all of the women back.”

“They” decided there were too many women and they cut out the women? Thanks a lot, event producers. Climbing is very much a male-dominated sport, but the women climbing achieve at an equal level to men across most disciplines. Fans of climbing can likely name as many famous, accomplished women climbers as men. It’s not the WNBA here, and there’s no reason to foster that attitude in the nascent climbing events distributed to the greater public worldwide.

"Sponsors of this event, do you hear me? Prana, Walltopia, Adidas, Clif, and all others – do you support the sexism displayed in this event? Will you continue to send them money to reinforce this?

"This is not the 1950s and 1960s. Our mothers were on the walls and in Camp 4 alongside the men so that we could be in these competitions today with the men. And not a single one of them would have let the guys treat them as badly as this comp treated their granddaughters."

G_Gnome

Trad climber
who gave up and just goes sailing now!
Aug 12, 2013 - 06:41pm PT
I'm waiting for the comps to stop having mens and womens categories. It should just be age groups...
Baggins

Boulder climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
Originally, they were going to cut out some of the women climbers. There were too many women climbers and they sent some of the women home, but in the end, all the girls said, ‘You know what, we want to compete, we’re all here – we’re going to compete’ and they ended up bringing all of the women back.”

So maybe I got this wrong, but my interpretation of this was that there wasnt enough time for the qualification rounds with a larger pool (no pun intended) of women. They had their knockout system already set in stone, with 16 male competitors and 16 female competitors. As this was a knockout with eighth>quarter>semi>final 1 on 1 comps (http://i1.wp.com/climbingnarc.com/wp-content/images/psicobracket.jpg); they couldn't really change that at the last minute.

The MCs were terrible. JC was offensive, and idiotic.

EDIT: where was lynn hill BTW? She was slated to compete!
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Aug 12, 2013 - 06:49pm PT
I was there, and I'd 100% agree that the announcers were not up to the level needed for an event like this turned out to be (and the PA system sucked as well).
But I wouldn't have said there was rampant sexism in the event itself. Men and women got pretty much equal time (16 women finalists and 16 men), and I believe equal prize purses. And there wasn't that much difference in the amount of skin on display.
maculated

Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 12, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
Could you clarify that for me? If there are sixteen men, there should be sixteen women. Cutting women and not men isn't anything except sexist.

Plus, you might read the whole article before responding because I pretty clearly laid out sexism there.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:02pm PT
I agree that the announcers were sub-standard, and while I could only hear half of what they said, I'd probably agree also that some of it was kind of sexist as well. So we're on the same page there. But that's an issue with those announcers not necessarily with the event itself.

While I don't know exactly what went on with the decisions to cut or not cut folks during the qualifiers, the main event was equal. They didn't send half as many women through to the finals or some such BS. They did have women go first...I guess you could say that was unequal, but that's pretty minor in the grand scheme of things. I suppose you could have run them both together on the same climb, but while the differences are very small in climbing, in general the men are a little stronger. So I'd think that would have ended up poorly.
maculated

Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 12, 2013 - 07:09pm PT
I have no qualms with how the event itself was run. But if the emcees were going off script, they could have easily been reined in. The point where Colette is talking about the women being cut and then she gasps for a second I had to listen to again because I thought maybe someone was telling her to abort, but she was just stoked for the girl finishing. As an event producer (including climbing events), if something like that was happening, I would have stopped it. I think the worldwide release and archival of it without comment sends a message more than if it was just at the comp itself in Park City.

The saddest bit was that it's obviously not intentional sexism, the poor gal initiated most of the comments! But we do it to ourselves, too.
Baggins

Boulder climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:10pm PT
Could you clarify that for me? If there are sixteen men, there should be sixteen women. Cutting women and not men isn't anything except sexist.

Plus, you might read the whole article before responding because I pretty clearly laid out sexism there.

Um, didnt we both just say there were 16 men and 16 women in the final? Isnt that pretty clear? Plus, the link I put up (http://i1.wp.com/climbingnarc.com/wp-content/images/psicobracket.jpg); shows that in visual form.

I suppose you could have run them both together on the same climb, but while the differences are very small in climbing, in general the men are a little stronger.

Yeah they would have had to run the same routes. So the womens was ~13c, the mens ~14b, and considerably more dynamic.
Baggins

Boulder climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:11pm PT
if the emcees were going off script

I think they were making it up as they went along...
maculated

Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 12, 2013 - 07:21pm PT
Baggins, no, it's not clear because of the comments explaining why they said they were going to cut the women. Did they start with a bigger pool of women than men or something? Or, were they GOING to cut down the 16 women?
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:38pm PT
As I said, I'm not sure what went on with the qualifiers. I know they had originally planned to have two rounds of qualifiers. Maybe there were more women than men, and for $ reasons they decided to do only one? Not ideal, but perhaps understandable given the typical $ constraints. But it did end up being equal numbers in the finals.
I also agree with you that someone probably should have stepped in to say something to the announcers to point out that they were being a bit too frat boyish. But it was pretty crazy that night.

Disclaimer: I'm friends with many of the people who organized this, so I'm probably a bit biased.
maculated

Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 12, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
Bias is fair. I'm an event organizer and I appreciate people supporting them, and they obviously did a ton of amazing things right - I wish I had the means to pull something like that off. Like I said, just that it stands as it is horrifies me.
John M

climber
Aug 12, 2013 - 07:54pm PT
I thought the women's competition was more interesting because the routes required more finesse. Much more interesting to watch as they worked out the moves. I didn't care for the format which meant in the final the competitors were burnt. They needed two walls or a wall big enough for a mens route and a women's route so that they could alternate. That would have kept it going and given more recovery time.
Morgan

Trad climber
East Coast
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:03pm PT
Wasn't there a world cup event when, Lynn Hill was competing where, the women wanted to compete on the men's route, but the organizers weren't keen. But then the crowd spoke up and wanted to see the women climb on the men's route. I think Lynn won and her climb would have been good for 2nd or 3rd in the men's standings?
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 12, 2013 - 11:04pm PT
So the womens was ~13c, the mens ~14b, and considerably more dynamic.

yup, blatant sexism...making the men climb harder routes.



sexism at climbing comps, now where is that 1st world problem thread?
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Aug 12, 2013 - 11:08pm PT

Give 'em hell, Mac!!!!
Peter Haan

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
Aug 12, 2013 - 11:24pm PT
Mac, breathe for christ's sake. It couldn't possibly "horrify" you. Don't lose your audience already here. I sense you are quite a bit more sophisticated than that.

Thanks for the important comments and point of view though. It takes all of us to make our art work. For me the grueling part of the event was that bonehead emcee, whoever he was (I've no clue) and how he didn't understand the event nor to whom he was speaking. It will be better next time.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 12, 2013 - 11:35pm PT
I'm so turned on right now.
maculated

Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 13, 2013 - 12:23am PT
Horrified is about right, maybe because as a woman that really never felt sexism affect her thanks to being a solid tomboy and accidentally working for businesswomen her whole life, I'm starting to realize just how women are treated by men, and by themselves.

You know why this ain't a first world problem, guys? Because what they're doing in developing countries is empowering women with education and medical care so that real change can be made, because men like status quo. Talking about tans, cute tops, harping on the women's fears, and then calling the men's comp the real, true blue *hard* climbing . . . sends a message and the only way to counter that message is to be aware of it. We might not be making them wear burqas, but we're stifling their validity in their profession by minimizing how they were treated at the comp by calling it a first world problem. But, I bet back in the 50s you guys would all have a problem with them wanting to be in the comp in the first place, right?

For the record, JT is Jonathan Thesenga, former editor of Climbing Magazine. Colette I haven't been able to identify a last name on. Don't focus just on JT, though . . . poor Colette was part of it without knowing it, and that's the big point here. They chose a woman to emcee along with a man for a reason, but the counterpoint wasn't there and she inadvertently (or maybe intentionally, but I doubt it) underscored the sexist treatment of the women with her own comments.

I am trying to call attention to a bigger problem, not something that's necessarily the fault of the organizers. It's a fault of the climbing culture and if no one else was going to say anything, I will, since I, thank God, was given a strong voice thanks to supportive climbers who were both men and women to call BS on a narrative that was allowed to play out to the entire world.
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:11am PT
poor Colette was part of it without knowing it, and that's the big point here. They chose a woman to emcee along with a man for a reason, but the counterpoint wasn't there and she inadvertently (or maybe intentionally, but I doubt it) underscored the sexist treatment of the women with her own comments.

So in your eyes is "poor Colette" (wow!) brainwashed or too stupid to have it "figured out"?
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 13, 2013 - 01:24am PT
But, I bet back in the 50s you guys would all have a problem with them wanting to be in the comp in the first place, right?

"Comps" , of course, didn't exist then and the thought of organizing them would have been met with considerable disdain. I don't recall any outright sexism, but there were very few female climbers at that time. I do recall hearing that Jan and Herb Conn, for example, were equal in ability.

Ask an old Gunks climber about Barbara Devine and her performances in the 1980s.

Don't cast your net so far back beyond your time.
maculated

Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 13, 2013 - 02:20am PT
John, that was exactly the point I was trying to make. I think you misinterpreted that particular phrase out of context, as I was being facetious that some people on here calling this a first world problem would deny sexism now, but would probably be a part of the people that would deny it back then. That's what I really celebrate, actually, that women have had a legitimate role since the beginning, but their portrayal at this comp diminishes that.

My point with Colette was that she was part of the sexism, even most of it in the clip I analyzed, likely without knowing it. We (women) can easily fall into it - when at a loss for words, small talk is always a comment on a girl's looks. It's socially acceptable, but in this particular arena, it shouldn't be - and, again, the way to stop it is to have a conversation and see it for what it is.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Aug 13, 2013 - 08:14am PT
.... I'm not seeing a problem. Me likely booty shortz
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 13, 2013 - 09:36am PT
Some ladies, unfortunately, choose to be a part of "sexism in climbing" by objectifying themselves and dressing certain way to climbing activities...I'm talking about "very short shorts" and very tight clothes... (This is a result of media brainwash pressuring them to look certain way.) I understand that people want to look nice when they're out and about, but some outfits just seem to serve purpose other than climbing convenience making the place (climbing gym or boulder area) look like some kind of meat market speed dating joint...

It's their choice to do that, not yours. The judgement in your post is incredibly hypocritical. Empowerment means choice,and then you belittle the choice.I know some of the girls you're refering to and all of them are good people. Just because they don't make the same choice you would, doesnt make their choice less valid.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 13, 2013 - 11:34am PT
You are complaining about the treatment of women in a climbing competition... held in Utah of all places. Ironically, the vast majority of female climbers I know from Utah are strong, confident, successful, and treated like people... while the rest of the female population is crushed under blatant sexism. But yeah, the problem is clearly how women are treated during climbing competitions... those evil men making them wear those tight shorts and skimpy tops. pfft.

What about the objectification of men in cycling?

Deekaid

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 11:40am PT
sex sells.

edit ; that is a crack up.they gotta be doing that on purpose
maculated

Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 13, 2013 - 11:51am PT
OMG, my EYES.
OR

Trad climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
This thread is awful me thinks....and so was the silly comp.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 13, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
I've mentioned this before, but I would love to see a direct competition involving both genders on the horizontal bar in gymnastics. Performances on the individual parallel bar and traditional high bar are practically identical. Men would probably be competitive on the balance beam as well.


;>)
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:43pm PT
I've mentioned this before, but I would love to see a direct competition involving both genders on the horizontal bar in gymnastics. Performances on the individual parallel bar and traditional high bar are practically identical. Men would probably be competitive on the balance beam as well.

It defies common sense to think that men and women would be nearly equal in gymnastics--the men and women's bodies don't look much alike physically, so how could they perform nearly identically? That would presume that athletic performance is somehow independent of their body-types--just doesn't make sense.

In certain types of climbing women can do about as well as men or perhaps better, but if any of you think that women are approximately equal to men at a bouldering type comp that would require long reaches and dynos, ur smoking something that may get you put in jail for a long time in Utah. Trust me I've spent a lot of time at gyms with top-level climbers (I live in Boulder)--there are super women climbers, but NO WAY are the top women climbers comparable to the top men climbers.

I know the best (or even just pretty good) female climbers would kick my ass in any style of climbing, I'm not trying to personalize of this, but I see a lot of this "women should compete with men" stuff as PC run amok.

If it actually happened, it would be lame as crap because the course setters would probably set women friendly courses (small crimpers close together) that the women actually may beat the men on, but that would lead to comps that are lamer than they already are.
Baggins

Boulder climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
There are many instances of women leading the field in the world of climbing. Lynn Hill on the nose - and of the 3 free ascents this has seen, 2 are from women. Beth rodden's unrepeated Meltdown I guess should be mentioned in that context too. Its a question of style - more or less, how are we going to be judging climbers?
Heyzeus

climber
Hollywood,Ca
Aug 13, 2013 - 05:51pm PT
That video Tioga posted is hilarious.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 13, 2013 - 06:01pm PT
There are many instances of women leading the field in the world of climbing. Lynn Hill on the nose - and of the 3 free ascents this has seen, 2 are from women. Beth rodden's unrepeated Meltdown I guess should be mentioned in that context too. Its a question of style - more or less, how are we going to be judging climbers?

The "many instances" you refer to is actually one thing: women with tiny fingers can climb at least some thin cracks that most men cannnot. (As I recall from reading Lynn Hill's bio, John Long picked out the Nose as a worthy project for Lynn to free because he knew she'd be able to fit her tiny fingers into the crack in the "Great Roof" or whatever it is, that man can't).
Meltdown is also a thin crack where Beth (a very petite lady) could put her fingers in but almost no guys can.

In addition to tiny cracks, I can imagine that women may hold on their own on tiny holds, the sort of holds where the little Japanese girl is kicking ass (obviously that's a huge part of difficult climbing, so I'm not trying to take anything away from women).

But here is the deal: the psicobloc had a huge dyno at the end; in bouldering comps, huge dynos are kind of the name of the game. There is NO WAY women can compete equally with men at that style of climbing.

If you want to set up a bouldeing competition that just goes up tiny holds and doesn't have big moves, have fun, but I don't think it's going to get much traction.

nah000

climber
canuckistan
Aug 13, 2013 - 07:36pm PT
i kept hoping i'd be outraged so that at least i wouldn't be bored.

no such luck.

amateur hour for sure. but sexist?

you can chalk up another vote to file this in the first world problem dossier.

only thing that video reinforces is that climbing as couch potato entertainment will never hit the big time. they've got people unexpectedly dropping into water from +30' up and it's still like watching paint dry.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 13, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
. . . so how could they perform nearly identically?

There was a pro gymnastics meet on TV back a few months and the women competed on the elevated single parallel bar, while the men competed on the traditional high bar. Many if not most of the moves were practically identical. There are a few strength moves the men might better perform, like the one-arm giant, but most of the stunts are highly dynamic (and do not require a long reach, like in climbing). On the other hand, Lillian Leitzel, the world's greatest circus performer back in the 1920s, did full one-arm swings on a single ring, over and over. She was under 5 feet and weighed less than a hundred pounds.


Edit: On the other hand I speculate that women will never be able to compete with men on the still rings, where enormous bodyweight strength is required. However, a prominent and highly respected colleague on this site has assured me that they will and that he will supply us with visual proof.

As to women vs men in climbing prowess, I have no opinion.

;>)

Deekaid

climber
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:23pm PT
tioga video is just more mass media making men look dumb.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:39pm PT
It is part of the feminazi agenda.
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Aug 14, 2013 - 02:06am PT
The first Psicobloc competition in Bilbao Spain...anyone recall the women who competed in that?

Funny, I heard comments from several women in attendance at the Utah Olympic Park that only in Utah would both women and men be so fully clothed. Interesting that men can't climb shirtless in Momentum's gym in Utah. And, the women have to cover up as well.

The PA system was so terrible, if you were in attendance, you couldn't hear any of the commentators anyhow...but...even so, I think Colette's comment on the women competitors may have been related to the number of folks that showed up for the qualifying round.

I didn't find the comp sexist myself. Given the amount of female horsepower here I'm not sure the organizer(s) would have survived had there been at least a local perception of such. But, that's just my opinion based in no small part on how strong the "ladies club" is.

The men's route was purportedly a fair bit harder. I was a bit annoyed at how long it took to change the wall over, but, thought it was interesting how they modified the hold size and spread.


I'd have rather gone sooner than later. The water was cold. The air temp was fairly warm when the sun was up, which, was while the women competed. When the sun when down, it got chilly. I really hadn't heard there was ever a plan to cut the women's competition down, at least not at the finals. Maybe they limited the qualifiers. Dunno. Lynn competed prior to the finals. Not sure how she did, but, I think they only took a couple of men and women from the qualifying rounds into the semi's, and, then to the finals. Maybe she didn't make the cut?

There was a fair rumor that some of the competitors didn't like the long fall into the water, some hitting hard the previous day (male climber). The woman that took second (Delaney Miller), for instance, didn't need to top out the wall again, which, given how little rest they got between burns was a tactical error. She said, post comp, "The fall did get less intimidating as the comp went on, but it was definitely not something I ever was truly comfortable with." She down climbed the backside instead of jumping in the second time she topped out the wall. Sasha jumped off with no perceptible fear of the drop...

Anyhoo, fun to watch....
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Aug 14, 2013 - 03:31am PT
All right! It's climbing related!


I bet this was all planned. The rigging of the comp of course. You should talk to sharma, he has all the answers.


John Butler

Social climber
SLC, Utah
Aug 14, 2013 - 10:24am PT
making the place (climbing gym or boulder area) look like some kind of meat market speed dating joint...

I had a similar thought walking past a large group of young boulderers at Gate Buttress last night :-)
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 14, 2013 - 10:59am PT
The only complaint I heard about the comp (prior to this) was from a woman:

"Psicobloc with shirts on???? Only in Utah. Shame on you. Shame on you!"

People (both male and female) like to see human bodies (both female and male). Your silly impression that is was sexist and your anti-sexy attitude doesn't stand a chance against millions of years of sexy-based evolution.

Hey, if it is/was so sexist, why are the Athletes not separated by sex? (Megan is 5th and Vasya is last on the list)

http://psicocomp.com/athletes.php

handsome B

Gym climber
SL,UT
Aug 14, 2013 - 11:59am PT
Maculated,
The primary premiss for your argument is false. Colette misspoke in reference to the female qualifications.
“They” decided there were too many women and they cut out the women?
Any woman who wanted to compete in finals was given a place. This is not true of the men's field, which used qualifiers to cut down the amount of competitors.
It's surprising you don't know who Colette is, considering she climbs 5.14 and is a great female climbing role-model.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 14, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Aug 14, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
Gyms are meat markets? And this is new?


Dingus, LOL, buddy, how would you know? When was the last time you climbed in a gym?


cheers,
Munge "haven't been to the gym in three weeks" Climber


A few more days of abstaining from the gym and I get an award.

exposeur

Trad climber
california?
Aug 14, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
so, have any of y'all heard about how the russian olympics is threatening LGBT people with arrest, etc? no doubt sexism exists in climbing and should be discussed/smashed, and not to diminish that spirit of critical analysis, but the olympics is such a much, MUCH bigger deal. the climbing community was all concerned about getting included in an event that is currently openly condoning major, violent discrimination, and i don't see anyone in the climbing community talking about it..
i don't think the comp got even half the attention that one sexist ad in a magazine does... and fred becky's fingers digging into that woman's butt makes me uneasy. but imagine being arrested for just looking gay..
enjoimx

Trad climber
SLO
Aug 14, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
This is why I hate climbing comps. They totally miss the point of rock climbing. I hate the whole comp scene, the drama, competition, politics, bullsh#t.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 14, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
This is why I hate climbing discussions. They totally assume there is a point to rock climbing, other than having fun whilst climbing things.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 14, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
I hold doors, pull out chairs, remain standing till the ladies have taken their seats - sexism?

We call that "manners" where I grew up. Not everyone can be blessed with a southern heritage though.

The OP rant is exactly the kind of knee-jerk, PC run-amok, mountain/molehill sh#t that causes people who are generally sympathetic to the aim, to dismiss you as a whackaloon.

16 competitors in each bracket, equal prize money. But you need to bitch, so bitch you will. Grasping at straws and the only one you can come up with is that Thesenga isn't the second coming of Howard Cosell and Kinder's girlfriend isn't the best impromptu public speaker. The horror of it all!
lubbockclimber

Trad climber
lubbock,tx
Aug 14, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
The whole thing is stupid
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 14, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
I see way more man nipples at the crag than woman nipples. I find that very sexist and very offensive.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 14, 2013 - 06:40pm PT
Yeah, 30'+ solos over deep water... why would anyone who enjoys climbing on rocks care about that?
Degaine

climber
Aug 15, 2013 - 02:12am PT
The OP’s post/blog article is poorly written and unclear. Given comments by those who were there who confirmed that there was indeed equality between the sexes with regard to the competitors, I’m surprised she hasn’t edited or simply pulled the article. That the emcees were unprofessional and not up to the task is another story.

I also find it a bit dubious for one event organizer criticizing another event organizer in this way.

There’s definitely sexism in climbing, but I fail to see the sexism in the aforementioned event. Energy would be better spent addressing idiotic posts like blahblah’s that still bring up Lynn’s small fingers 20 years after her amazing feat.

Blahblah wrote:
The "many instances" you refer to is actually one thing: women with tiny fingers can climb at least some thin cracks that most men cannnot.

Dude, what an idiotic thing to write. If men get to use that excuse for not being able to climb what Lynn has climbed, does that mean that Lynn get’s to use here 5’1” stature as an excuse to not have sent climbs that guys a foot taller have sent? Lynn freed the Nose, a ground breaking feat in our small world of rock climbing. Other world class climbers couldn’t and/or haven’t, period, full stop, end of story, no excuses for those not up to the challenge.
Degaine

climber
Aug 15, 2013 - 02:13am PT
Post wrote:
It's their choice to do that, not yours. The judgement in your post is incredibly hypocritical. Empowerment means choice,and then you belittle the choice.


Be careful with the whole notion of choice. In many Western European countries, Muslim women claim that wearing a head scarf or a veil is a choice, yet this practice is clearly misogynistic.

However, Tioga’s post is way off base given: a) climbing mags show just about as many men climbing without t-shirts on, and b) the women I climb with wear the climbing tanks/bras for freedom of movement similar to men not wearing a t-shirt while climbing.

Of course like many athletic human beings, people go shirtless / climb in a climbing bra to get tan, to show off for others, etc., and people also go to climbing gyms for the social aspect to meet (meat?) others, where’s the problem?

That’s not to say there’s not sexism in climbing, but tioga’s comment and the poorly written post/blog article aren’t it.
Degaine

climber
Aug 15, 2013 - 02:33am PT
Hi tioga,

Out of curiosity, what personal issues do I have?

Otherwise, I fail to see where I attacked you personally. I criticized your post that’s it, and made no comment about you personally. It’s right there for you to read, “Tioga’s post is way off base…”

P.S. To add that if you actually read both of my posts above, you would have seen that I twice wrote that there's sexism in climbing.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Aug 15, 2013 - 08:08am PT
Falling into water is aid.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 15, 2013 - 08:38am PT
Btw, been to Planet Granite in Sunnyvale...the hell of a meat market that the place is.. it's more like a rave party after 5.30pm!

Sounds like fun!
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 15, 2013 - 11:29am PT
30+ foot solos on some blue plastic thingy ... why would anyone who enjoys climbing on rocks care about that?

That is not psicobloc, that was the competition.

And even if I did care, the name is still ghey.

Ah yes, you big bad ass Merkins, stink-buggin your way up chossy 5.8 slabs with your cams and widgets, tell those silly Euros that soloing sh#t you couldn't aid your way up is "ghey."
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Aug 15, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
euro-fagg ghey azz spurt climbers now think they is fish

will kids now learn to climb in surfer shorts?! where iz it all headed?
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 15, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
It can't be worse than lycra

ladyscarlett

Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
Aug 15, 2013 - 01:33pm PT
Oh dear...you Obviously haven't seen the Lycra lingerie that I've seen! :)

But it sounds to me like this wont change until we make it ALL ABOUT SEX!!!! Show the best and sexy of genders and sexuality.

Sexy, skimpy outfits are required, and sex appeal is part of the scoring...way more straight up than 'artistic aesthetic.

Each event has a different required outfit...swimsuit, underwear, strip climb, etc....

Sounds like the best way to deal with this is not to take sex/gender completely out of the pic (that sounds stupid...I like looking and hawt men and ladies!) is to put more sex into every part!!!

Hehehe, can't wait for this one....I'll have my camera and extra batteries fer sure!!!

Cheers

LS
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 15, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
And she done gymnastics rings as well, not just stuff like Corde Lisse..She was a real deal

She was amazing, but there is no evidence she could do stunts like crosses or planches, routine for male gymnasts. If you have pictures of her doing these please post them, as my old friend will have won his wager and I must eat my hat.

;>)

patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Aug 15, 2013 - 03:49pm PT
That was good for a laugh considering the women I climb with do v11/13d.

Doing even a single pull up is a highly over rated exercise.
ladyscarlett

Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
Aug 15, 2013 - 04:52pm PT
Social intimidation, eh?

Not going to say it wasn't a struggle to develop a self identity that combined femininity and strength...but the fact that intimidation exists doesn't have to be a limiting factor.

By that logic, every woman who has found a confidence in her own self identity as a feminine athlete is WAY STRONGER than any guy, mentally at least, because of the social intimidation they've had to overcome...

So yeah, maybe statistically more men can do a one armed pull up than women...in general....but I KNOW you guys are intimidated by a hot halter top and Lycra.

Not to mention a pair of knee high, high heeled boots and a short skirt....

Or a really nice rack, rope, and rubber....shoes.

Sexism is....relevant in general as it still is remarkably prevalent..but personally I'm lucky to be in an environment where life is driven by what needs to get done, not by the gender of who did it...so the issue speaks to me, but I admit, the activism has faded from when I was younger.

Except for sex... Then gender really matters to me....;)

Cheers

LS
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 20, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
every woman who has found a confidence in her own self identity as a feminine athlete is WAY STRONGER than any guy

Wanna wrestle?
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
Aug 20, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 21, 2013 - 01:05am PT



I've learned that sometimes, when women climb, they don't think that they are 'women climbing.' They are Climbers - we are climbers. Sex exists, men and women are different, and it's always going to be tricky to dance around some sensitivities. When in doubt elevate the sport and your appreciation for those who accomplish bad ass sh#t.


Pamela, Ines and Mayan. Bad ass climbers.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 21, 2013 - 01:10am PT
Wanna wrestle?

One thing that I really like about climbing is it has more to do about how hard you work, versus what gifts you were born with. All my childhood growing up I wanted to play basketball and volleyball, just like my 6'3" dad. I'm short, and those doors closed quickly.

I ran cross country and did a bit of wrestling. My high school mile time would have put me in the top 10 for women's state, yet didn't get me a varsity letter. Rolling in Jiu Jitsu off the couch with talented female purple belts, I could base out and power through armbars, triangles... yeah. Sometimes it helps to be built like a chimp - and be a dude.

I learned years ago that Race doesn't define people - neither does sex. Relax, people... go Emcee and event once. It's OK to bomb, sh#t happens.


edit -
every woman who has found a confidence in her own self identity as a feminine athlete is WAY STRONGER than any guy
I was 7 seconds off the Women's California championship in the Mile when I was 15 years old - maybe the field had an identity crisis?

http://www.athletic.net/TrackAndField/California/
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 21, 2013 - 01:39am PT
Another thing about any sport is how LONG you'll stay






La Dura Dura, 15C 2013
Chablanke, V11 in 2010

I'd say the results are mixed.
ladyscarlett

Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
Aug 21, 2013 - 04:41pm PT
ahhh...I forget with all the strong people here...its all about physical manifestations of strength, and if that physical manifestation isn't the highest or best among All The People, it must mean there is no strength.

Listening to everyone helps me realize that I really have crafted in my immediate life, a world where gender is less pertinent than what is actually happening (except for sex! ;). One of the many reasons that competitions, etc don't really call to me.

Tioga, hope you get it all figured out. I still haven't, but I can live with that...part of being a weak person - my self identity aside.

Sexism is out there and very present, and for me, I battle against it in the only way I can...my own.

And I'll NEVER hesitate to use the point that my 'girlie hands' are perfect for the 'tight hands' leads. After all, a girl's gotta go for what she wants...so let a girl go get what she wants...sheesh!

As far a standing the test of time, don't statistics show that on a whole, women tend to outlive men?

Mwahahaha...

Cheers

LS
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Aug 21, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
I think climber women are hot... Jus sayin'
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 21, 2013 - 11:34pm PT
Here's a modern lady who performs one-armed giant swings!

Nice video. I enjoyed it. I suspect she might be able to do a few one arm pull-ups from the way she climbed the rope. She also did a back lever, unusual for a female. Those are not "giant swings" in the formal gymnastics sense; one of the hardest part of the OAGS is simply hanging on when you reach the bottom of the swing. (Notice she rotates from the shoulder and not the extended arm.) That is not an issue with the wrist straps she wore. Depending on one's weight and height even a simple giant swing on the high bar generates hundreds of pounds of force, requiring a really strong grip. I never did the one arm variety and can't imagine the strength that takes.

Still no female front lever or cross or planche.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 22, 2013 - 11:36am PT
Good planche! First time I've seen a female doing that. rgold may win his bet yet! Your comments about center of gravity are of course correct. Women CrossFit athletes frequently do lots of muscle-ups on the rings. I hope they never try crosses. Shoulders are delicate.

I used to do giant swings on the still rings and they are a little different from those on the horizontal bar.

Have you ever heard of a Russian gymnast named Blanche Rosanna? She is mentioned in Willoughby's book, Super Athletes.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 22, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
Dingus is always better at saying it.

(Proverbial "What he said.")



edit - I know you're an MMA fan so here's a video of Ronda Rousey training with Nick Diaz (top 5 170-pounder) and his buddy (dude who gets chucked around like a medicine ball).

[Click to View YouTube Video]
skip to 4:15
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 22, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
so these gymnastics elements aren't really strength benchmarks

Actually they are. For me at 6'2" and 180 lbs, the various levers were excellent benchmarks. Front Lever

Gymnasts now are shorter and more muscular than they were in my day, back in the 1950s. The top US male gymnast then was 6'1"

When I trained for the competitive rope climb I would start a session with ten consecutive, non-kipped muscle-ups. But my shoulders are a mess now and I don't try even one. I cringe when I see young women doing muscle-ups on the rings at CrossFit. And I wonder what sort of physical condition those circus performers who did all those shoulder swings like Leitzel are (or were) in later in life. Leitzel died early.

Edit: video above - what small children can do has little bearing on adult performances. Her straddle is too wide to count as a FL. But, impressive little tyke. Kind of like these tiny girls who boulder V10+.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 22, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
Then, we'd have to bring in powerlifters and all other athletes and collect benchmarks from every sport.

That's actually a great benchmark, for strength. There's weight classes there, too. It's one of the most base human functions - pick something up (deadlift, squat) and lift it over your head (military press). Or all at once (olympic lifting). That, running, fighting... probably the most basic things humans have evolved to accomplish for strength, i.e. the fibers we were evolved to improve upon for survival. Or something.

Adam Ondra just recently did his first one-arm pull-up. You can swing a cat in a gym and find a high-schooler who can do it. That means he is not very 'strong' as compared to his peers - yet he obviously has fantastic technique. So a technique heavy sport, he can perform very well, much like several women climbing very near the top grades for men.

Sometimes sex can play a big role, some times it doesn't. That isn't something anybody 'owns,' it's just a fact of science. I can recruit a lot more power in my shoulders than many women, it doesn't mean I can punch harder/throw a baseball faster.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 22, 2013 - 03:35pm PT
I haven't heard of Blanche Rosanna

Could be Rassana or something like that. I haven't been able to track this mysterious performer down, if she even exists.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 22, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
Adam Ondra just recently did his first one-arm pull-up. You can swing a cat in a gym and find a high-schooler who can do it. That means he is not very 'strong' as compared to his peers - yet he obviously has fantastic technique. So a technique heavy sport, he can perform very well, much like several women climbing very near the top grades for men.

Ondra's inability to do a 1-arm pullup means that he is not "strong" as measured in the ability to 1-arm pullups. It doesn't mean at all that he is not "strong" as it relates in the ability to do hard rock climbs (almost entirely the ability to hang onto very small holds).
Likewise, I may guess that Ondra is not "strong" in bench pressing--that's only slightly less relevant to climbing than 1-arm pullups.

Hard climbing is not particularly technique dependent--I'd compare it to something like an 100m sprint. I suppose there's some technique involved, but if you think the difference between you and Bolt is that he has better technique--well, you're simply wrong.
Of course all hard climbers have excellent technique--they're generally people who started climbing young in life and/or have been climbing a long time. But lots of people who climb sorta hard but not world class also have excellent technique.

Some of you have a hard time understanding this, so I'll dumb it down as much as I can. Go to a rock gym. Find a really hard boulder problem. See if you can hang onto the holds, or if you can, if you can move between them. Feel free to try it as many times as you like, experimenting with whatever "technique," you'd like.
You will quickly perceive that you just can't hang the holds (or do anything other than hang on for dear life, depending on your strength).

I'm absolutely sure Sasha D'G can hang onto tiny holds. Maybe she has some special technique that allows her to do that?



GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 22, 2013 - 05:42pm PT
I'm not saying he isn't strong at all - just not as much as many others. Obviously he has an incredible grip strength and strength-to-weight ratio, just like sasha etc.

Different body types, different muscles - but Ondra would look silly compared to Chris in many "strong man" tests of strength like we are describing here.

ladyscarlett

Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
Aug 22, 2013 - 05:51pm PT
If I were stronger...like those hawt climber women that have been posted up here...

I'd be WAY happier in my life.

Then again, I'd be WAY happier in my life if I got to climb more too.

I wonder if there's a correlation to better sex once a person can do a certain amount of one-armed pull ups or planches...

Haha, I could SO see that date.

"must be able to do x number of one armed pull ups to ride"

HAHAHAHA

Cheers

LS
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Aug 22, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
I think Ondra is relatively tall and has longish arms. Probably makes it harder for him to do one-arms (and benchpresses for that matter).
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Aug 22, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
I would think a hippo at play would be a delightful sight! :-)
Makes me smile just thinking about it.

Me too. Have a nice day, Dingus. :-)

[Click to View YouTube Video]
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 22, 2013 - 06:49pm PT
I wonder if there's a correlation to better sex once a person can do a certain amount of one-armed pull ups or planches...

Haha, I could SO see that date.

Well as someone who could do at least one one-arm pull up (not perfect form but not really kipping or anything, just sort of twist around, which is the way I generally see them done)--
I'd have to say the answer is no. But maybe the number is greater than 1, so I can't be sure.
I did sort of pathetically try to impress a girl with a one-arm one time, didn't really do anything, but her brother actually did seem impressed, for what that was worth!
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Aug 22, 2013 - 07:22pm PT
Climbing is best done for personal reasons, not for competitive reasons. Unlike soccer, baseball, basketball, and similar, in climbing just getting back to your car in one piece should be the primary victory to relish.

Oh well.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 22, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
Never had even the slightest desire to attend a climbing comp. especialy a plastic climbing comp........ Much more impressed with a kid who has the gumption to go do a back country climb than someone who crushes big numbers in the gym.......
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 22, 2013 - 09:11pm PT
I'm absolutely sure Sasha D'G can hang onto tiny holds. Maybe she has some special technique that allows her to do that?

Not to detract from her excellent performances, but 5'2" and 97 pounds helps. There will be climbs that small, light, highly talented women can do that no one else can. Learn to live with it Big Guys!
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 22, 2013 - 11:45pm PT
Wow, some people (tradmanclimbs) think you go to a climbing comp to watch people climb? You go because it is fun to hang around with cool people. It is like hanging out at a sports bar... only without the ball jockies... and most of the chicks are fit.
ladyscarlett

Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
Aug 23, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
I get what you're saying Dr. Christ. I get what you're saying and totally see the appeal...

but then where's the beer on tap?

hehehe

Cheers

LS

ps - have actually quite often gone to the gym to troll for potential climbing crew...still a case where a tshirt that says "this many one armed pull ups to ride.." ;) hee hee hee hee...
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 23, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
Pretty sure there was beer there... even though it was in Utah.
ladyscarlett

Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
Aug 23, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
Nice!!

The comps that I've been to only have sub par burgers...

Well DONE!

Cheers

LS

ps - I still think a tshirt with "must be able to do x number of one arm'd pull ups to ride.." Hee hee hee
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Aug 23, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
Salt Lake has an outstanding climbing community... and some damn good beer... but shitty air quality.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 23, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
I'm absolutely sure Sasha D'G can hang onto tiny holds. Maybe she has some special technique that allows her to do that?

Not to detract from her excellent performances, but 5'2" and 97 pounds helps. There will be climbs that small, light, highly talented women can do that no one else can. Learn to live with it Big Guys!

Yes, my comment was a little sarcastic--by now, it should be obvious to everyone who cares that certain types of high level climbing are largely a weight game.

I watched a couple of professional climbers do some warm up routes (13a) at the gym last night--there's no doubt that they have both excellent technique and excellent strength/weight; we'd need to do some hangboard-style tests to try to isolate the effects of those parameters (assuming that hanging on a hangboard measures a type of "strength" and not technique).
The Alpine

climber
Aug 24, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
Umm. Remind me again how the event was SEXIST??

Amateur for sure.

The OP and the event...
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 28, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
(I personally believe this is actually true),

Do you really?!? Take a look at the most accessable sport in the world, soccer. There is a pretty damn even represenation at the top levels. Yes, people of priviledge have access to better training and coaching, but to say that black people are innately better is simply wrong. No scientist on Earth would make that claim.

Overall you're right though. When guys bring stuff up about women in sports, they're generally full of sh#t.They totally miss the point of athletics and competition.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 28, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
Like I said: I PERSONALLY BELIEVE.


Isn't that the definition of racism?
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 28, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
That's OK I guess, but you're wrong.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 28, 2013 - 03:35pm PT
If you believe in innately racial athletic ability do you also believe in innately racial intellecutal ability?...
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Sep 5, 2013 - 03:28pm PT
. . . around all kinds of monkey bars and kids playgrounds...One may see someone pushing dumbells (or, most likely, handles on weight machines) indoors or playing freesbee or ball outside you know..freesbees fly... no man does a muscle up

One of my pet peeves is that many American playgrounds have become overly safe to avoid lawsuits and present virtually no challenges to kids (or adults). And outdoor fitness stations for adults are frequently dull, unimaginative and uninspiring. On my website are illustrations of what "playgrounds" used to be like many years ago.

Oops, not much to do with this thread.
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