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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Its misguided eco groups and false info campaigns against anything with the word LOG in it.
Complete bullsh#t. Your opening post likewise paints over what went on earlier with a wash of similar bullsh#t. The real story is that states and logging companies used early 'thinning' programs to log the largest trees on the tracts. It would have been really difficult to come up with a more 'thinnly' veiled campaign of total bullshit - the exact opposite of the fantasy picture you paint.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I absolutely believe that all firefighters who have lost their lives in fires do it because they want to serve to help people.
My question is: should we put them in the situation where they can loose their lives?
It's not at all clear to me what the answer to this question is...
...sorry to bring the cloud known as "The Chief" into this thread. He is stalking me on the STForum, apparently, and will post disruptively in response to my posts.
Perhaps the Forum management might do something about that...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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as for your protest that the forests have never been in this state, it would be interesting to hear why you think that Ron...
...you know that there could never have been a time and a place where such a state occurred naturally?
If so, please state the case for that...
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abrams
Sport climber
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Posting signs in areas that need to be thinned out that say
'Free Fire Wood' 'No Limit' would be a low cost way of reducing fuel load.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Here is a study for anyone that cares:
http://johnmuirproject.org/documents/Hanson%20White%20Paper%2029Jan10%20Final.pdf
The gist is that a lot of assumptions about what we see now and what we think happened historically are incorrect.
Regarding Yarnell / Granite Mt. IHC-- those desert fires either rip or don't burn. There really is no creeping ground fire like you see in timber. Also, the fuel load is more seasonal than anything, meaning: wet winter + warm spring + low relative humidity = busy fire season. There are not 50 year accumulations of seasonal grass.
Even if they just let fires rage though their communities the brush comes back within a few years. South Canyon and its sister accident in the same area in the 70s in the same fuel were both re-burns.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Free wood? Go walk around the Big Bar district on the Klamath NF and get back to us on how well that would work.
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abrams
Sport climber
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Do tell? Big fire possibility there?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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DMT...see definition of insanity...exercises in futility...etc.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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I'm not getting into the consent decree issues.
All I am saying is that people point to simple causes (suppression / fuel accumulation) and remedies (thinning / logging / controlled fires) that are often not correct or feasible. I also think the problem--if it's even a problem--is far more complex and intractable than some may realize.
Ron I'm sorry you knew someone that died at South Canyon. I was a hotshot when that went down and jumped out of the BLM spike base in Grand Junction a year or so later. One of the guys in GJ was the one that made it to the top of the ridge and survived--the skin had melted off of his hands. Pretty sobering.
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command error
Trad climber
Colorado
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Ah yes The Rube Goldberg method of solving forest fire suppression.
Government think tanks and endless meetings planning the agenda's of future meetings and bureaucracy piled upon bureaucracy.
Reducing costs of suppressing forest fires with a Let 'em Burn policy
except when my home is in danger.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Sport Lions are neither.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Don't argue with a dendrolator.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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so the oldest trees are 1000 to 2000 years old?
and the last ice age ended 14,000 years ago...
seems to be a gap in the tree ring data so cited...
anything longer ago?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Some speculation,
If catastrophically hot fires were the norm there should be geological evidence in the soil layers.
If frequent laid down fires were the norm there may not be any surviving record.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 10:49am PT
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 11:03am PT
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Breath tiger
I was referring to this:
But the remaining stands out there are fueled just like the rim fire area, with up to 150 yrs worth of growth dead fuels and overstocked acres. THOSE are the ones we either use and treat or loose and weep.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 11:18am PT
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I'm afraid Ron may be largely right about many forests being gone for a very
long time. The beautiful Chiricahuas burned in about '92 and when we were
there last spring there was zero evidence of anything coming back except
for weeds and scrub brush. I was greatly saddened.
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Aug 28, 2013 - 11:29am PT
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The natives use to burn this land for nearly 20,000 years. We have a responsibility to burn it.
LET IT ALL BURN!!!
In fact, go light it!!
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Aug 28, 2013 - 11:31am PT
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Then i will show you entire mtn ranges that lost FOREVER their timber. Changed the soil and area climates along with it. 120 yrs later no trees.
If you think 120 years is a long time you are extremely naive...and I doubt anything is forever, maybe forever in light of your short life. Maybe more responsible forest managers will come along in future generations and relearn what the natives knew thousands of years ago. By using terms like "invasive weeds" I can see that you do not view the changing natural word as natural. Hell even our influence on this land is "natural", and healthy is completely subjective. Who are we to say that changes are not suppose to take place?
Your ego is simply astounding by the way, have you thought of starting a cult or a country yet?
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