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Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 11, 2013 - 09:51pm PT
As a few of you know, I've been fooling around with some drill holder ideas for awhile. I think I have some that are useable but I would like some more field testing. I am looking for some climbers who actually drill by hand and would be willing to try one out and let me know what happens. It isn't testing if you don't drill holes. No guarantee they will not fall apart or otherwise fail to be useful. You might want to have a backup holder until you are comfortable with it. I don't really like giving them away to just anybody so it would be nice if someone I know or recognize would try them. I'd like them back for postmortem exam.

You'll have to provide your own bits.

So, who, other than yourself, do you nominate to try one out? The nominee should second his own nomination.

Earlier prototypes pretty much the same as the SDS large and medium I am offering:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlkwbIHHBkM

High tech hardening of an A-Taper holder:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-BqFXI4bNY

More info in PDF's:
http://freepdfhosting.com/f5b2a6adf6.pdf
http://freepdfhosting.com/ae2b775bc6.pdf
http://freepdfhosting.com/9d223e3d61.pdf

These holders are all made by me using the junk machines in my garage.

Clockwise from top in the photo found below:
SDS Medium size with no longer used retainer ring slot (#3)
SDS large size with no longer used retainer ring slot (#2)
A-Taper (#7)
A-Taper (#6)
SDS large size with no longer used retainer ring slot (#1)

#1 has seen some use and has drilled perhaps 10 or more holes either by me or Bob (Cragnshag on ST). Clint has been around these too but I don't recall if he has actually used one. Three other climber friends have versions as well.

Clockwise from top 3, 2, 7, 6, 1
Clockwise from top 3, 2, 7, 6, 1
Credit: Banquo
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Jul 12, 2013 - 12:01am PT
I bought one of Dan's current design SDS holders (the "Bayonet") from him, and look forward to using it.
I've broken 2 of the Petzl RockPecker holders - the spring just does not last.
I have a Hurricane also, but Dan's design uses the SDS slot and pocket, so the bit will not loosen up and spin or fall out.
Plus no tool needed to change bits.
And the bit goes deep inside the older, so you can drill on steeper stances without having to swing the hammer back as far.

These free earlier SDS prototypes are the same except they use the retainer ring slot.
Greg Barnes

climber
Jul 12, 2013 - 12:23am PT
How well does this design work for rotating hard (since a lot of the time when you expand a 1/4" hole the bit binds and you really crank on the handle to rotate)? Often you seem to spend more time rotating than hitting, particularly when the old 1/4" was a long one. With Hurricanes the grip sometimes got loose and rotated, the Petzls are better for this in my experience.

On the spring breaking - I've only had one spring break on a Petzl but I hit a lot lighter than most folks.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 12, 2013 - 12:24am PT
pretty cool.
klaus

Big Wall climber
Pacif*#ka Muthaf*#ka
Jul 12, 2013 - 01:09am PT
I'll take one. putting up... I mean replacing bolts on a route.

edit: ok I'd like to try one out on a fa of a bolt protected slab, but it's confusing what kind of bits fit in each holder. please explain
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 12, 2013 - 08:34am PT
426 nominates me and i second me!
Check your email
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Jul 12, 2013 - 11:20am PT
Dan,

I would like a A taper drill.

Nice of you to offer your work up like this.

PM to follow.

Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 12, 2013 - 11:31am PT
The main difference between these prototype SDS holders and the final design is that they are made from a softer, low carbon steel. The final versions are made from chromoly steel. They also have the remnants of the old system of retainer ring and washer that used to keep a hot red vinyl grip in place.

what kind of bits fit in each holder. please explain

The three with foam handles hold SDS Plus bits. These are the most common bits and you can find them at the local hardware store.

The longer SDS holder has a deep socket and is intended for 3/8" bits which are typically 6 inches long overall. It will drill a 2.75 or 3 inch deep hole with the typical 3/8" bit. To use a 1/4" bit you will have to buy one that is long enough. A 1/2" bit will not work in this holder.

The medium SDS holder will work with any 3/8" or 1/4" bit. It can be altered to work with a 1/2" bit by drilling out the hole to 1/2" diameter to a depth of about 1/4". I can make this modification pretty easily.

The two little holders use A-Taper bits. I like A-Taper bits because they fit solid and don't wiggle around in the holder. It also results in a holder with no moving parts so failure is pretty unlikely. There is a list of A-Taper bit suppliers in one of the downloads.

How well does this design work for rotating hard

I think you could shear off the torque screws if you put a wrench on it and tried to. So far I haven't had any trouble twisting by hand but I've been drilling new bolts not replacing bolts.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 12, 2013 - 11:32am PT
Banquo, TD and I used to use the hex-shaped RAWL holders and loved them because you could slip a ratchet-wrench over the holder and crank that thing around with the ratchet as you were drilling. Man, you can drill fast with the mechanical advantage.

Here's the wrench I'm talking about:

http://www.sears.com/craftsman-12-pc-wrench-set-12-pt-flat/p-00942112000P?prdNo=15&blockNo=15&blockType=G15


Would this work with your holders?

Oh, and I nominate Clint and klaus ;-)
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Jul 12, 2013 - 11:34am PT
I second mucci.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 12, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
k-man,
The wrench would work on the A-Taper holders. I think a wrench will work on the SDS holders if you can get the wrench past the cable. You could always just cut the cable off. I'm not really sure why I put the cable on since I never use it. The side springs will be in the way at the drill end but I could probably alter the design so it would work.

The A-Tapers have a home, I will send them off to Mucci and John.

I will send one to jaybro but I need to know what he wants.

Klaus can have one but I need to know which one and his address.

Assuming jaybro and klaus want SDS holders, that leaves one more. Clint can have if he wants another.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 12, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
Every time the Russians managed to get one of their high speed jets to set a new speed record we would wheel out the SR 71 Blackbird and snatch it back from them in a matter of hours.


When you have all the speed that you need you can keep some in reserve.
I got my Mercedes up to some pretty good velocities but never floored it.






My point?

Bosch rules.
cultureshock

Trad climber
Mountain View
Jul 12, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
I'd be happy to play around with one. I've got a bunch of SDS bits, so something SDS compatible would be great.

As Greg said the handle slippage is a big issue on the Hurricane when widening holes.

Would be nice if your designed worked well for cranking on the grip.

-Luke
klaus

Big Wall climber
Pacif*#ka Muthaf*#ka
Jul 12, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
will one of them work with regular 3/8 (actually 13/32) high speed steel bits that you can buy at Home Depot?

that's about all I use these days.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Jul 12, 2013 - 02:22pm PT
Klaus,

None of those holders will accept the bit you are trying to use.

Hurricane is the only one.

A taper is good and you can sharpen the tip much better than an SDS carbide tip. Much shorter than any other rig out there.







Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 12, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
I have tried and given up on standard HSS twist drill bits. They dull fast, they jam all the time, they are brittle and snap off. I know some swear by them but I've found them more trouble than they are worth.

There are two ways to hold a regular HSS bit. Get a Hurricane drill holder or grind the shank down to match an A-Taper. The Hurricane is a very fine holder but takes two wrenches to change bits. Grinding a drill shank to A-Taper is tricky but can be done if you set up a jig to get the angle right. I can do it fairly well on a benchtop belt sander.

Depending on who you ask, an A-Taper is between 1:20 and 1:20.8. Mine are an included angle of 2.75 degrees which is the 1:20.8. This is based on what the best manufacturers tell me. It's too bad there isn't a standard for A-Taper as the difference between 1:20 and 1:20.8 is enough to cause problems.

Carbide SDS or A-Taper bits usually last a long, long time. They can easily be sharpened with a diamond file. I sharpen new carbide bits and they drill seemingly twice as fast as unsharpened new ones. You can get a set of diamond files on Amazon for less than $10. I did get a batch of carbide bits that shattered after about one and a half holes. The steel at the carbide tip seemed to be too hard and shattered. Other than that they seem to hold up well and can be sharpened many times.
klaus

Big Wall climber
Pacif*#ka Muthaf*#ka
Jul 12, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
I've had mostly good experiences with the HSS twist drills and the Hurricane holder of which I have 2 (unless Michelle wants to buy hers back). And mostly bad experience with SDS for hand drilling.

I think I'll just stick to my system and let Mucci play around with the new stuff. Thanks for the offer!
cragnshag

Social climber
san joser
Jul 12, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
Hey Clint I picked up your new drill from Dan and have it in my garage. You owe me 40 jr. frosties and 40 mcdoubles for it. It is a very nice drill- never hit and only dropped once.

This last weekend I drilled four holes in granite with Banquo's medium SDS holder. The drill feels solid and the size was just right. Bits go in and out with no tool and no hassle. No problems with the holder even though I hit very hard.

On a previous trip I used one of the A-taper holders with a carbide bit and had no issues.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 13, 2013 - 11:37am PT
Klaus,

I'm curious what trouble you had with carbide bits. I know I got some bad ones that broke once. They didn't have a manufacturers name so I suspect they were junk I found on eBay. I don't like how long the 3/8" bits are but that is why I put a deep socket in the long version of my holder.

I'm not dissing the hurricane holder. I think it is very good. I've never used one but it seems like 2 wrenches could cause some fumbling when stance drilling.

As far as long SDS bits go, I am contacting manufacturers to see what it would cost to make a runof shorter bits. I may end up with 100 of them and hope other climbers will be interested in getting some.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 15, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
I'm sending out four holders by USPS parcel mail today. I'm too cheap to pay priority postage so it wall take awhile for them to arrive.

Mucci is getting an A-Taper holder
John G. is getting an A-Taper holder
Jaybro is getting a medium size SDS holder
Levy is getting a large type SDS holder

I am hoping they use them and post their impressions. I would like to get any comments and any suggestions for improvements.

I still haven't found anyone for one of the large type holders.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 15, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
Found a home for the last one.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:07pm PT
Thanks a lot Dan, looking forward to wreaking more havoc on my already thrashed elbow!



HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
This is a really cool idea.
Tork

climber
Yosemite
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:15pm PT
Ya for josh and John, get some!

I would give one of your large units a go.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 15, 2013 - 10:46pm PT
Thnx!
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2013 - 12:01am PT
I would give one of your large units a go.

Tork-

All the handout prototypes are gone now. I do have 5 brand spanking new of the medium size and one of the small on hand but none of the large right now. I could make some if there was any interest in buying or trading for them.

Due to some recent bailing off exploratory climbs, I am running out of stoppers and bail biners. I might trade a drill holder for a handful of stoppers. I figure I need to get $80 for an SDS holder to make it worth my while and some folks have paid that much already. So, I am willing to trade for something I need of about that value.

Anyway, if anybody wants a drill holder and has something to trade or is willing to pay, let me know. I'm figuring $80 for the SDS holders and $50 for the A-Tapers holders. Money back, no questions asked one year return policy.

Postage is extra but you are always welcome to come by Morgan Hill and pick one up.
cultureshock

Trad climber
Mountain View
Sep 10, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
So I drilled/widened a couple of holes this past weekend.

Banquo sent me the SDS type in the large size. The bit is really recessed in the hole.

This is awesome since the striking surface on the drill holder is closer to the wall.

Due to the SDS tool less design I wouldn't recommend these for re-drilling 1/4" holes. when enlarging holes the bit often binds. When this happens I try to crank harder or just pull the bit out of the hole a little and rotate. When I tried to pull the bit out the holster would just pop off and the bit would stay in the hole.

I ended up switching to a hurricane to finish the re-drill.

Once the 1/4" inner hole was eliminated Banquo's drill really hums along. I would love to see a hurricane style wrist strap instead of the micro attachment wire. The wire is very functional and doesn't get in the way, but I would prefer to have a wrist strap.

I'll report back after the next set of holes.

Thanks again!

 Luke
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Sep 10, 2013 - 03:47pm PT
Culture, thx for the insight. I hadn't thought about binding and pulling outward on Banquo's design. Admittedly, I do more FA drilling than rebolting. (sad but true for now)

crazymountaingoat

Big Wall climber
modesto, ca
Sep 10, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
can i nominate myself? I would love to give them a test run. Ive pounded out about 50 bolts in the last year in all kinds of Granite. Would love to test drive a different drill on some more...

cragnshag

Social climber
san joser
Sep 10, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
Hey Luke,

Did your drill have a velcro strap over the middle of the foam grip? If so, you need to really cinch that sucker down. It keeps the ball stopper thingies engaged and then the bit will stay put. It also keeps the foam grip in place.

Clint and I replaced a few old 1/4" bolts this weekend with the same drill and had no problems with the bits coming out while fighting the binding effect. If you don't have a velcro cinch strap I'm sure Banquo will mail you one.

Bob
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Sep 10, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
Luke,
To reduce binding when enlarging a 1/4" hole:
 do not hit it very hard until you are past the original 1" or so 1/4" depth
 check your bit tip for wear on the sides (reduced diameter)
 check your bit tip for chipping
 rotate the bit counterclockwise (surprisingly, this really helps)

Also, if it starts to bind, you can:
 rotate it by hand while pushing it in with your other hand (without hammering). This "rounds out" the hole a bit.
 hit it lightly a few extra times in the zone where it is binding - this should also help round out the hole.

Bob and I both are using the Dan's "Bayonet" drill holders now.
I dislike the big cable wrist loop on the Hurricane because mine does not rotate easily on the shaft, so it gets in the way of rotating the holder.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2013 - 05:01pm PT
The idea was that the bits would be easy to remove which isn't always a good thing. The cinch strap will lock the bit in if you cinch it by the balls. Squeezing the handle by the balls with your hand will sometimes lock the bit in too. If you didn't get a strap I have some. I've also found some much better foam tubing. Better foam costs more too, about a buck an inch in the small quantities I'm buying.

I'm done giving away drill holders but I do have some of the short ones, the medium ones and a couple A-taper ones. I would happily part with the SDS ones for $80 and the A-taper ones for $50. Between materials, parts and tools I think I've got a couple grand into this little project so far. I'm pretty sure I'll never come out ahead.

Edit:
Also, I never use the loop when drilling. I work on the never drop anything principle. In fact, I don't think I've ever used the loop for anything but put one on because people seem to expect one. I'm working on making them spin easier. High end bicycle shifter cable is really nice since it is small diameter and has been run through a die or something so it has a really smooth surface. Can't afford to buy it for this application. Perhaps somebody has a bike shop and can collect any used cables from the trash.
cragnshag

Social climber
san joser
Sep 10, 2013 - 05:19pm PT
Squeezing the handle by the balls with your hand

Be careful, too much squeezing your handle might make you go blind.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
I imagine somebody yelling "it keeps pulling out." To which the reply is "squeeze the balls, that'll keep it in."
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2013 - 05:42pm PT
I'd be willing to trade one of my holders for any SDS holder in new or good condition. I want to do some comparison tests. Petzl, Hurricane, Pika but probably not the Fixe.
cultureshock

Trad climber
Mountain View
Sep 10, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
I do have the cinch Velcro so I will try to really tighten it up.

I think the foam is fine. I didn't realize the velcro was functional for holding the bit in place.

I have no problems with the strap/wire rotating on my hurricane. I got it from a friend so I think it is still pretty new. Perhaps less than 50 holes drilled.

The only thing wrong with my my hurricane is a loose grip. I guess I just need to re-epoxy it.

Thanks for the tips guys. It really helps!! Hopefully I'll get better at re-drilling holes. Right now it seems that it takes almost as long as a fresh hole.

 Luke
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Sep 10, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
Dan,
You can borrow my Hurricane for awhile.
Plus these:
 Rawl A-taper, no rubber grip
 5.10 A-taper, with Rawl rubber grip. The heaviest of these.
 Petzl Rocpec, but the SDS retainer is broken. It's quite light. Too bad it doesn't last.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2013 - 07:54pm PT
Looks like I will be at the facelift staying at Yellow Pines. I'll bring some holders and drills in case anybody would like to try one out. If you want one, bring money or something to trade.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 19, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
In the post linked below, I speculated:

I think you could shear off the torque screws if you put a wrench on it and tried to. So far I haven't had any trouble twisting by hand but I've been drilling new bolts not replacing bolts.

So I decided to torque test a drill holder. I clamped an 8mm bit I don't need in a vise and cranked on it with an 8 inch long wrench. I pulled 60 lbs (40 ft-lb) when the bit twisted like taffy. I think my holders work well enough when torqued.

I still have 6 of the 4 inch long ones and 4 of the 3-1/2 inch long ones. Also a couple A-Taper holders.


http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2180408&msg=2180683#msg2180683

Torquing drill holder to 40 ft-lb
Torquing drill holder to 40 ft-lb
Credit: Banquo

3.5" holder with a 110x10mm SDS drill. 6 inches overall. ANSI standard...
3.5" holder with a 110x10mm SDS drill. 6 inches overall. ANSI standard for 3/8" carbide bits is 0.398-0.406" while for 10mm it is 0.402-0.411"
Credit: Banquo
Russ Walling

Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
Oct 19, 2013 - 02:47pm PT
Hey there say....

Do you have any need for the old style rubber grips that fit the Rawl / FiveTen / FISH holders of yesteryear?

I have an assload of them and they need a project. The rubber is really dense and can be drilled or cut to fit all sorts of stuff.

Let me know.

Here is a pic stolen from 426:



Banquo

climber
Amerricka
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 19, 2013 - 07:41pm PT
Russ-

Those are nice and beefy. Somebody who isn't worried about size and weight might like a holder in a handle like that. I made a prototype holder a couple weeks ago that uses set screws like the Pika did. Mine uses two set screws which I think will be less likely to loosen than the single one in the Pika. I also used self locking Nyloc set screws which I don't think will loosen due to pounding. The nylon is visco-elastic and I think the very high viscosity will keep them from moving due to impact. Needs testing. Your handles would be perfect. Drill two holes for access to the set screws and glue the handle on. Did you glue them on or did they stay in place all by themselves?

The market for hand drills is incredibly small but if anybody wants one like this, they are much easier to make than my bayonet type.

Russ, send me a message if you are interested in my prototype. I could send it to you if you wanted to test it out.

I'm always interested in trading for stuff.

Two set screw drill holder with hardened striking surface.
Two set screw drill holder with hardened striking surface.
Credit: Banquo
Russ Walling

Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
Oct 19, 2013 - 07:53pm PT
Email sent but it usually does not go through... send me one too
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