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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 24, 2013 - 10:35pm PT
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A friend of mine is doing the PCT (currently in TM). She did a course of flagyl several weeks ago and is now having stomach pains when she eats and apparently is now lactose intolerant. Any body have any personal experience with flagyl and the side effects?
Doing the miles on the PCT and not being able to eat is not a good thing.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 24, 2013 - 10:41pm PT
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HaHa, I'll have her stop by your place for a rest stop.
But seriously, anyone got some info?
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Sweanee, TN
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Jun 24, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
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It probably wiped out some of the nesscary bacteria in her gut. Some people respond well to eating yogurt with active cultures. The theory being that it innoculates the colon with needed bacteria. Ive known several people who developed chronic diarea after antibiotics and yougert cured it. Wish her luck for me.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 24, 2013 - 10:52pm PT
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Thanks guys. She has already done the flagyl course, so it is too late to choose an alternative treatment.
Bat- that makes some sense; from what I understand the flagyl pretty much kills all the bugs, good and bad. Living on typical PCT rations would not help rebuild the good bugs.
edit: what are probiotics?
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Mark Rodell
Trad climber
Bangkok
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Jun 24, 2013 - 10:52pm PT
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In Kathmandu we'd take something called Tinnaba (sp). Very nasty stuff, loaded with arsenic and heavy metals...a person would know they'd taken poison.
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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Jun 24, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
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Why was she on the Flagyl? Giardia?
Metallic taste in the mouth and feeling yucky were my main side effects but the stuff is jingus.
Best advice I got- get the best pre and probiotics you can as well as Kefir. If she can't do Kefir, other fermented foods, sauerkraut, etc. Interfase Plus from Klaire labs is amazing, breaks down biofilm, look it up if you don't know what that is. I think Klaire makes a product for the lactose problem as well but have no idea how well it works..
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Morgan
Trad climber
East Coast
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Jun 24, 2013 - 11:00pm PT
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I never had it, but I talked to someone who took it after a Himalayan trip. They feel they can no longer digest meat or chocolate.
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John M
climber
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Jun 24, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
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I have taken flagyl a number of times. It usually took me months to get my intestines back in balance, but then I have a history of issues with my intestines. I took probiotics after taking flagyl to help build up the good bacteria. What usually helped the most was to eat a lot of cooked vegetables, eat meat in moderatiion, take probiotics and stay away from sugar, alcohol, and large amounts of grains.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 24, 2013 - 11:08pm PT
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Why was she on the Flagyl? Giardia?
I'm not sure, but she thinks so and picked it up somewhere around Kennedy Meadows south.
She is trooper, despite it all she has summited Whitney and made it to Tuolumne. She is from the east coast and has no real support out here.
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Jun 24, 2013 - 11:12pm PT
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I was on flagyl and cipro at the same time. The worst experience I ever had (other than chemo). I had all the gut problems as mentioned earlier. It does wipe out everything, good and bad. I had auditory hallucinations (not voices but sounds, like the reverse beeping sound on trucks would seem to be right in my ear, I would hear clicks and clacks that just weren't there). I had no appetite and felt generally "disconnected". It did clear up the Giardia but the side effects were hellacious.
Best of luck to your girl friend. Others have mentioned other options...I'm not aware of those but if I ever need flagyl or cipro again I will ask for other options.
Susan
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 24, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
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cragman- that is very generous. I'm not sure when she is leaving TM, she may already be gone north. PM your phone number and I'll text her with it.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Jun 24, 2013 - 11:27pm PT
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Gurgles, blasts, and squirts.
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Jun 24, 2013 - 11:36pm PT
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+1 for all the comments about probiotics. They are very helpful after a course of any antibiotics; or even during, if you're on them for a while. The greater the diversity of different bacterial species in it, the better. It's biologically highly doubtful (I would say completely implausible but you never know with biology) that it has anything to do with lactose intolerance, which is strictly genetic and results from zero or insufficient levels of the enzyme that breaks down lactose. The normal pre-civilization condition for humans is to stop producing lactase in childhood, so virtually all adults were once lactose "intolerant" until the prevalence of dairy foods conferred an advantage on the mutations that delay the decrease in lactase production. Interesting, but not relevant here.
If the digestive issues have diminished by the time she reaches Tuolumne, Cragman ought to take her to dinner at the Mobil!
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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Jun 24, 2013 - 11:49pm PT
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I doubt the better probiotics will be in a store in Mammoth et al, but ya never know. I would at the very least get Primal Defense by Garden of Life, which should be available locally, and doesn't need refrigeration. With any of these products go slow. Start with one and build up (with Primal Defense to 12 a day)otherwise she will feel like she has the flu. Herxing they call it, as in Herxheimer reaction.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jun 25, 2013 - 12:47am PT
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hey there say, johntp.... oh my, i will sure be praying that all goes well for your friend...
here's cheering for good things for her...
god blesss...
:)
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 25, 2013 - 01:03am PT
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Just a note to thank everyone for the input. There are a lot of people on this forum that have good hearts. Sometimes that gets lost.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Jun 25, 2013 - 01:13am PT
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Everyone has basically covered it all here. One correction, the one dose drug is called tinidazole and is usually done with 2 grams, but cragman probably just had a typo. It's WAY better than flagyl and I recovered a lot faster from that stuff while eating probiotics (foods with good bacteria in them).
The never ending giardia in the sierra arguments, I should've done my thesis on that to try to finally figure it out...
Hope the rest of her trip goes well and she feels better, wish her luck from the taco!
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jun 25, 2013 - 01:30am PT
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I felt a little bad for a longish time on flagyl. I felt like utter crap on tinidazole, but it was only for one day.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Jun 25, 2013 - 01:42am PT
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Flagyl as a teen after a trans sierra trip from Onion Valley to Roads End in Kings. Bad filter. Got appendicitis, and contracted something that wiped me out. Flagyl for awhile, and never really was just the same in the guts. Lactose intolerant later in life.
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BASE1361
climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
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Jun 25, 2013 - 02:19am PT
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Is she drinking alcohol while taking it?
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Jun 25, 2013 - 02:31am PT
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I don't believe Flagyl has the same weakening effects on connective tissue as does Cipro. Different bugs, different treatments, but there could be an upside.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 25, 2013 - 03:08am PT
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As an anthropologist working in Nepal, I've taken buckets of flagyl and tinidazole, mostly for Amebas, sometimes for Giardia. In fact the Giardia which is likely what she picked up in the Sierras, plays havoc on the small intestine and food absorption whereas amoebas attack the large intestine. It's pretty easy to tell the difference. Did the center of her abdomen hurt, did she swell up and burp rotten eggs, or did it hurt in a semicircle going up the right side across the top and down the left side and feel like someone was in there scraping away with razor blades. Both of course cause diarrhea.
If Giardia is what she had, then it's very important that she take folic acid in addition to probiotics. Start out with 5 mg. for a week and then taper to 3 and 1. Often this alone is enough to get rid of problems. Without folic acid, sometimes a person can develop a mysterious affliction called tropical sprue.
While lactose intolerance is generally hereditary in our society, Giardia can also cause it. Lay off dairy products except for yogurt, buttermilk, and other already fermented products and take probiotics. Abstain from dairy for a couple of weeks, try it for a day and if a bad reaction discontinue for another two weeks. With folic acid and probiotics, almost everyone is back to normal after a month.
Sometimes people also develop a temporary gluten intolerance. Eat rice, corn, and quinoa instead for a couple of weeks, try it (but not at the same time as trying dairy again) and you will either be ok after a couple of weeks or will need to abstain longer.
Fish oil helps immensely to rebuild the mucosa of the intestines. Take 3 g. twice a day for about five days and then taper off. By this time your skin will smell fishy, but it really helps.
The main thing is patience. Once you disrupt the lining of either intestine it takes a long time to heal and of course a long time to restore the normal bacteria.
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jaaan
Trad climber
Chamonix, France
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Jun 25, 2013 - 05:29am PT
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@ Jan,
Ah, the rotten egg burps! It's all coming back(!) to me now. Flagyl is the work of the devil. I thought it was far worse than the condition it was treating.
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Park Rat
Social climber
CA, UT,CT,FL
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Jun 25, 2013 - 06:33am PT
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I agree with what Jan wrote in her thread.
As a result of my visit to national Jewish health, I came away with the name of their best probiotic.
They highly recommend Jarro-Dophilus to restore G.I. health.
The company is Jarrow, you can check out their website.
The bad news is it should be refrigerated to keep its potency, however they do make a travel probiotic. It's called E P S Jarro-dophilus.
It's not available in your average health food store, however I found it on Amazon.com.
I hope this helps
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 25, 2013 - 07:54am PT
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Three cheers for National Jewish!. They figured out that my asthma was vocal cord dysfunction and all the high dose steroids the military doctors gave me were unnecessary. I'd go so far as to say National Jewish gave my life back to me. I have never been in an emergency room since their diagnosis and the correct treatment.
Since they mainly deal with respiratory problems, it's hard for me to imagine why they would be recommending a British probiotic but that is the stuff they gave me in England at a hospital of tropical medicine in Leeds where they treat lots of Indians and Pakistanis. They too, straightened me out in no time after two years of mucking around with military doctors.
And I agree with Jaaan, it's hard to tell often times whether the flagyl or the parasites are going to kill you first.
As for military docs, if you do have to deal with them for this kind of stuff, head straight to the Special Forces medics. They know ten times more about parasites than any other military docs.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Jun 25, 2013 - 09:15am PT
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(I took flagyl for giardia BITD and got nothing but better. It affects everyone differently but it will definitely knock your gut flora for a loop.)
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jun 25, 2013 - 09:19am PT
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My research on the subject a few years back detertimed that Flagyll does not kill the common as Giardia Protozoa, Cryptosporidium. Until 2005, Cryptosporidium sufferers had to let the disease run it’s course-----which can be several weeks of suffering.
Nitazoxanide is sold under the brand names Nitaxide, Nitax, Zox, Nitazox, Niazid, Toza, Daxon, Dexidex, Kidonax, Mitafar, Pacovanton, Paramix, Nitazox, Alinia, and Annita and is now prescribed for both Cryptosporidium and Giardia infections. Nitazoxanide effects a cure in about a week in a high percentage of those infected.
Here's a link to the Wiki page on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitazoxanide
However, it appears many doctors are unaware of Nitazoxanide, or don't prescrib it because of its higher cost. Heidi had bad guts after our 2007 Peru adventure, took a course of it, and improved immediately.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 25, 2013 - 09:36am PT
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Thanks all for the input and well wishes for my friend.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 25, 2013 - 10:08am PT
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Thanks Fritz, for mentioning Nitroxanide. One of its good benefits other than killing Crytospiridium is that the amoebas in South Asia are not yet resistant to it whereas they are to Flagyl and Tinidazole to some degree. After several unsucessful courses with Tinidazole, I managed to knock out my last round of Amoebas with Nitroxanide which a friend brought back from Mexico. It also seems to have many fewer side effects for humans than either Flagyl or Tinidazole.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jun 25, 2013 - 11:06am PT
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Jan: Thanks for bringing up Nitazoxanide being effective against Amoebic Dysentery, which is common in parts of South America, Africa, and S.E. Asia: it causes more deaths than any other parasite, except those that cause Malaria.
I knew Flagyl had lots of bad side-effects, but I didn't know they included it being suspected as cancer-causing.
It's scary schist!
From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metronidazole
Metronidazole is listed by the US National Toxicology Program (NTP) as reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen[citation needed]. Although some of the testing methods have been questioned, oral exposure has been shown to cause cancer in experimental animals.[9]
The relationship between exposure to metronidazole and human cancer is unclear.[9] One study (Beard et al. 1988) found an excess in lung cancer among women (even after adjusting for smoking), while other studies (IARC 1987; Thapa et al. 1998) found either no increased risk, or a statistically insignificant risk.[9] [10] Metronidazole is listed as a possible carcinogen according to the WHO International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC).[11]
Due to its potential carcinogenic properties, metronidazole is banned in the EU and the USA for veterinary use in the feed of animals and is banned for use in any food animals in the USA
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darkmagus
Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 25, 2013 - 11:37am PT
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Probiotics: yogurt, kombucha, Kim chi, etc.
And don't forget the...
pre-biotics: supply the bacteria with proper food (inulin/fructooligosaccharides), look around for stuff that has it (e.g. Chicory root).
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John M
climber
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Jun 25, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
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Ack, I wish I had had access to some of this information 30 years ago. I went through a nightmare for 5 years with my intestines. At one point getting down below 120 pounds. In college my competitive swimming weight was 176, which was 6 percent body fat, so below 120 was dangerous territory.
Jan, you explain things so simply. Thanks.. Though I never did fully figure out what caused me to have such problems. It was first diagnosed as Dysentery, then Colitis, then eventually after many doctors they decided it was inflamatory bowel disease and then Crohn's disease. I don't think that they ever really knew. At one point they wanted to remove about 14 feet of my intestines. I quit going to the doctors and put myself on a strict diet for 18 months and eventually the problems went away. I forgot how important folic acid was to that regimen. And good fish oil. So much of what is out there is mostly junk and doesn't really help. If you have a mild problem, it will probably help, but if you have a persistent and dangerous problem, then you need the best probiotics, the best folic acid and the best fish oils, along with high quality vegetables, and avoiding gluten and too much red meat. Those are the things that helped me the most, though I had to spend a number of years making up my own recipe for health. I eventually did an 18 month diet with no corn, no sugar, no wheat, no dairy, no alcohol, no caffeine, no highly processed foods, and no red meat. Plus a good probiotic, fish oil supplements, and b vitamins. I didn't know that it was mainly folic acid that I needed of the B vitamens. That finally did the trick. But it was epic to get it figured out. The american doctors I had access to 30 years ago just didn't seem to understand the gut. 3 years of sulfa drugs and doctors telling me I needed to have my intestines removed and I gave up on the docs. Thankfully I was able to find a solution.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 25, 2013 - 03:31pm PT
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John M , I arrived at my current knowledge pretty much through the same sort of suffering and misdiagnosis. And if I ever get cancer, it will be related to all the flagyl and tinidazole, I'm sure. This is all part of anthropology and seeing the world that they don't tell you about in grad school!
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John M
climber
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Jun 25, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
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Jan, I really admire the life that you have lived and the sense of justice you embody and convey. That may not be the way that you see yourself, but I feel it and appreciate it. I hope you thoroughly enjoy your time in Colorado. When do you plan to get to Colorado? And yes, I fully appreciate that there are lots of things we aren't told about the kinds of lives we choose. Cheers to you! :-)
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