super moon summer solstice question

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Footloose

Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 22, 2013 - 10:20pm PT
Hey, educate me in high northern astronomy, please.

Can you guys way up north towards Alaska see a full moon around summer solstice? Or is too far south and so doesn't clear the southern horizon or even the trees to the south?

Here at Tahoe, 39th parallel, it's pretty low in the southern sky.

Just wondering, thanks!



p.s. Cause I think the moon orbits the earth more or less in the sun-earth plane. Correct?

I am trying to research it - how the moon phases appear above the arctic circle, for example in summer, but I'm not finding it so far yet.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 22, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
Moon is BRIGHT tonight.

DMT
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 22, 2013 - 10:39pm PT
not quite in the Earth-Sun plane

my calcs show that the Moon is below the horizon in Barrow Alaska (71.3003N, 156.7358W) today 6/22/2013

Footloose

Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 22, 2013 - 10:41pm PT
Amazing. Thanks, Ed.

Will have to research this more, revisit the basic principles!
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Jun 22, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
An interesting question. Please continue and elucidate further.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jun 22, 2013 - 11:07pm PT
I'm lookin at it now & it's pretty super. Can see the whole thing here is whistler.

Is it just me or have we had a lot of super moons lately??
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 22, 2013 - 11:07pm PT


The "Ecliptic plane" is the plane that the Earth's orbit is in...
the Earth rotates and it's equatorial plane is tipped 23.5 off the ecliptic plane

the moon's orbit is also tipped 5 off the ecliptic plane

At a high enough latitude, the summer Sun will stay above the horizon for the day (as it is for Barrow today)...

a full Moon is "behind" the Earth opposite the Sun... if the Sun never sets, the Moon never rises....
Footloose

Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 22, 2013 - 11:26pm PT
Thanks, Ed, that pic's a "super" good one.

Super "elucidating," huh Wayno? :)

I imagine something like a quarter moon would put on an interesting show up in the arctic circle at summer solstice (and other times too) for a visiting tourist, say from the 39th parallel.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Jun 23, 2013 - 12:50am PT
That worked for me. Big thanks , Ed.
aguacaliente

climber
Jun 23, 2013 - 01:41am PT
Ed, this is kind of a nitpick, but because the moon's orbit is tilted 5 degrees out of the ecliptic plane, the full moon does not have to be exactly 180 degrees opposite the Sun from an Earth viewpoint. The plane of the lunar orbit precesses on an 18.6 year cycle. I believe this means that there are certain times where it would be theoretically possible to see a full moon on a day of 24-hour sun. If I have the geometry right, the full moon would be highest when close to the minor lunar standstill - look at the figure at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_standstill

Try calculating for Barrow on the full moon of July 21-22 (still midnight sun). I get that the full moon would be about 1 deg above the horizon. While it's questionable whether something 1 deg above the horizon is observable in practice, atmospheric refraction helps.
cyndiebransford

climber
Kenai Peninsula, Alaska
Jun 23, 2013 - 01:52am PT
Here is a photo I took last night while out kayaking at 11:00PM on the Kenai Peninsula, Alaska.
solstice moon
solstice moon
Credit: cyndiebransford
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jun 23, 2013 - 02:59am PT
It's looking good in mowab...
Credit: Jaybro
Dapper Dan

Trad climber
Menlo Park
Jun 23, 2013 - 07:10am PT
Credit: Dapper Dan

The Super Moon going down about 6am here near the mammoth hot tubs...
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jun 23, 2013 - 07:21am PT
It's shining brightly in Okinawa as well and looked huge coming up this evening around 8 pm.
MisterE

Social climber
Jun 23, 2013 - 07:48am PT
Amazing shot, Cyndie!

Thanks for the info, Ed.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 23, 2013 - 09:04am PT
aguacaliente you're certainly correct that there isn't an exact 180 difference in the alignment....

My calculation shows that the Moon has an altitude of something like -2 at 1:30am on 6/22 at Barrow

It would be a fun exercise to calculate what days both the Sun and the full Moon were visible in the sky at the same time...

for 7/22/13 I do indeed get the full Moon and the Sun in the sky at altitudes of roughly +1 at around 2:30am local time

SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Jun 24, 2013 - 09:57am PT
Wow Cyndie!
Moon through masts....with touch up by Instagram! Doesn't make up for forgetting a tripod.

Credit: SCseagoat

Susan
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jun 24, 2013 - 10:24am PT
Killer photos everyone!!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 24, 2013 - 10:26am PT
No problem seeing the moon from S Face of Denali.
Not sure if it was 'super' although it was for me. :-)

Maybe Ed can compute the comparable latitude given 15K' on Denali.
(I probably could but I'm lazy plus he can do it in his head)
Actually, now that I think about it if Denali is 63N then being at 15K is like
being at about 64.5N. Am I right, Ed?

Crappy pic of a pic on my wall...
Credit: Reilly
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 24, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
when was the picture taken (day, month, year) ?

On 7/22/13 the full Moon will be at an altitude of nearly 10 above the horizon at 2am at Mt. McKinley.

At 15k elevation on the side of Denali, the moon will still appear 10 above your "level gaze" so well above most of the features near by (a 15k feet peak is at an altitude of 0 if it isn't too distant).


Nice image!

Powder

Trad climber
the Flower Box
Jun 25, 2013 - 11:44pm PT

In Tuolumne...

Credit: Powder

Credit: Powder

Credit: Powder

Credit: Powder


Video clips are a bit shaky especially while zooming in...



i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Jun 26, 2013 - 12:06am PT
you guys really think cyndie's pic is real??? i have some land in florida on the side of a beautiful granite wall i'll sell ya.
almost the super moon here in tahoe from the lovers leap area
Credit: i'm gumby dammit
cyndiebransford

climber
Kenai Peninsula, Alaska
Jun 26, 2013 - 12:39am PT
My photo is real! I darkened the moon in photoshop. Would you like to see the untouched up photo?
June 21, 2013 @ 11:22 PM
June 21, 2013 @ 11:22 PM
Credit: cyndiebransford
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Jun 26, 2013 - 01:19am PT
that looks much realer. it doesn't have the obvious edges around it an the darkening made it look as though it was not from that sky. the moon still looks enlarged though, unless your lens is a +300mm.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jun 26, 2013 - 01:26am PT
Ed, can you plot a graph of the accelerations a person feels during a month on earth?

like a sine wave super-imposed on a circular orbit?

thanks,
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 26, 2013 - 08:07am PT
Ed, my shot was in May of '77 (sigh).
Thanks for the compliment. Get this - the print was made from an interneg of
a slide. I had a couple of prints made and one went up in a restaurant in
Seattle. I got some requests for copies and when I went to the envelope
that the interneg and slide came back from the printer's in imagine my
surprise to find neither were in there! This was a couple of months later
so when I went back and told them somebody had either filched them or lost
them I was up the proverbial creek. It still rankles.
Lokesh

Mountain climber
Big Bear California
Jun 26, 2013 - 08:47am PT
Moonrise over Sugarloaf Mt. and Big Bear Lake a few days ago
Moonrise over Sugarloaf Mt. and Big Bear Lake a few days ago
Credit: Lokesh
cyndiebransford

climber
Kenai Peninsula, Alaska
Jun 26, 2013 - 10:17am PT
Gumby, I have a 1200 mil zoom on my camera. I am not sure what zoom the photo was shot at, but I assure you the moon was large that night. I was in a canoe on Lower Ohlmer Lake on the Skilak Lake Loop Road between Sterling and Cooper Landing on the Kenai Peninsula. I just wanted to share the solstice moon from up here, no intention of trying to mislead anyone on my part.
We had a spectacular sunset that night too, but now I am unsure about sharing those photos too. Strange how the moon can rise and the sun can set around the same time up here.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Jun 26, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
And here in Van - well, on top of Little Diamond Head in Jan '84 in temps about -20C I saw sun rise and moon set . Wild.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Jun 27, 2013 - 12:31am PT
Gumby, I have a 1200 mil zoom on my camera. I am not sure what zoom the photo was shot at, but I assure you the moon was large that night. I was in a canoe on Lower Ohlmer Lake on the Skilak Lake Loop Road between Sterling and Cooper Landing on the Kenai Peninsula. I just wanted to share the solstice moon from up here, no intention of trying to mislead anyone on my part.
We had a spectacular sunset that night too, but now I am unsure about sharing those photos too. Strange how the moon can rise and the sun can set around the same time up here.
Didn't mean to offend you, and definitely don't want to keep you from sharing other photos. The fact is that the way that the human eye sees the moon and makes it look large while it is near the horizon is an optical illusion that is not captured by the camera. In the vast majority of cases when the effect is seen in imagery, it is the result of manipulation during processing.
As an aside, if you want to know what zoom it was shot at (and you're on windows) you can view the original in windows explorer, right click on the image and select properties, then scroll down through the exif data til you find it. I assume you can do something in a similar fashion on a mac (or search for how to find exif data on a mac).
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