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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Jun 13, 2013 - 11:32am PT
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guns don't kill people, geez
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 13, 2013 - 11:36am PT
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Yeah, God kills people.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jun 13, 2013 - 11:36am PT
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Are you counting all the people who killed themselves on purpose?
Are you counting the people whose killings were justified, like when a cop kills someone who needs killing?
Are you counting the people shot by FELONS, who are already barred from owning guns?
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Jun 13, 2013 - 11:37am PT
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The culture has to change.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Jun 13, 2013 - 11:45am PT
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from the data sheet there are a fair number of self inflicted gunshot deaths.
I think that data needs to be drawn out into its own column for clarity.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Jun 13, 2013 - 11:47am PT
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details
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Jun 13, 2013 - 11:51am PT
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I recently watched a Vice episode about the gun culture of Chicago gangs. Scary stuff for sure. Strict Chicago gun laws have zero effect on the ability to obtain guns in the Chi town hood. Gun culture is the true problem.
I have just come to accept the fact that......
Im gonna die !
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jun 13, 2013 - 11:51am PT
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Yeah, cars run so clean that you can't CO2 off yourself anymore and people are always looking at taking the easy way out. Bridges have barriers now, and even getting a pill prescription is much more difficult than it use to be.
To be, or not to be.....to bolt, or not to be....
OH, INCASE ANYONE MISSED THIS PART: "The Slate data comes from crowdsourcing and warns that it is “necessarily incomplete.” "
I COULDN'T IMAGING CROWDSOUCING BEING UNRELIABLE.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2013 - 11:55am PT
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Nice yank for emotion type of article.,.
So, there weren't actually all those people shot?
Sorry Randisi, but we're just so free that we've killed more of each other since December than the ENTIRE WAR in Iraq?
Ron, oops sorry, I forgot that gang deaths don't count. What a bunch of crap. Is it death by firearm or not?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2013 - 11:58am PT
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Breathing is fatal.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Jun 13, 2013 - 11:58am PT
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ive been wondering about that clothed boob thread thing
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jun 13, 2013 - 11:59am PT
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There's about 68 accidental shootings in the list. Seems appropriate to include those in this list.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jun 13, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
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How many people died in car accidents during that same time period?
I'll bet it's more than 68.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jun 13, 2013 - 12:06pm PT
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Yeah, Chaz, car accidents dwarf many death causes, so lets do nothing about any of them.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jun 13, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
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Monolith writes:
"Yeah, Chaz, car accidents dwarf many death causes, so lets do nothing."
Depends on what it is you want to do? What do you think would solve the problem?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 13, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
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The obvious method to balance the figures;
shoot bad drivers.
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Friedo
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe
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Jun 13, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
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I love when people bring up car accidents and relate them to shootings. Here's the difference. A car accident is an ACCIDENT! Nobody accidentally walks into a movie theater with an AR-15 and shoots 70 people... oops.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jun 13, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
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Toker V. writes:
"shoot bad drivers."
We've had that program up-and-running here in CA for thirty years now.
Whenever I drive out-of-State, I'm always seeing drivers doing brainless things that would get one shot in California.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
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Remove a LARGE population of 3rd world illegal people here and watch that number fall like a rock. Like in half or better.
So, I guess that's a cultural thing?
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jun 13, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
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There's no 'solving' the problem Chaz. There are mitigation steps, like more background checks, and ways to help track down perps. These won't pass cuz the repubs control the house.
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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
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Jun 13, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
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Chicago, Detriot and East of the 405 in Cali is more dangerous than Mexico's cartel riff-raff. I think Ron is onto something about those third world peoples.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
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You tell me Survival..
Should be good news then, right Ron? I mean since it's mostly blacks and Mexicans shooting each other, there's no problem.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 13, 2013 - 01:44pm PT
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no reason to investigate gang murders
just them them keep killing each other so what
thins the herd
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jun 13, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
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Latest year with data is 2010
Car deaths (I suppose it includes suicides): 33,000
Gun deaths (including suicides) 32,000
Gun suicides alone: 19,000
The Slate article comes with a caveat
The Slate data comes from crowdsourcing and warns that it is “necessarily incomplete.” Authors of the tally call on readers to submit news stories to @GunDeaths.
I've seen the Slate data described previously, it's taken from news articles. Plenty of gun deaths never make the news, like the two gun suicides (one a friend, the other well known to me) in my neighborhood (about 200 people) in the past 7 years. So the real number of gun deaths since Dec 14 should be about 16,000 for 1/2 year.
The two numbers have been converging the past several years with auto deaths declining and gun deaths increasing.
Draw your own conclusions.
Back on topic
survival's original post is disturbing and truly mind-boggling.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jun 13, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
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"How many people died in car accidents during that same time period?
I'll bet it's more than 68."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence
"False equivalence is a logical fallacy which describes a situation where there is a logical and apparent equivalence, but when in fact there is none."
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jun 13, 2013 - 05:05pm PT
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Apogee,
Obviously it went right over your head.
Read this very slowly.
We're comparing accidents to accidents here.
Almost every single person killed in a car is killed completely by accident.
Damn few gun deaths are the result of accident ( 68 out of 32,000 ).
Remember one of the first rules of safe shooting: Be sure of your target.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jun 13, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
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Actually it's not a false equivalence when you consider the effort our society expends to reduce automobile fatalities compared to gun deaths.
Automobile fatalities were something like 50,000 per year in the '70s. And we've got many many more people driving longer distances now. Yet we've cut auto fatalities by 1/3.
When as a society we decide to tackle a major public safety problem, we generally have success.
Polio
Aids
Car deaths
If you like, you can practice unsafe sex, don't immunize your children and don't wear your seat belts. At least none of these things will affect my life.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jun 13, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
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Damn few gun deaths are the result of accident ( 68 out of 32,000 ). Got the data on that?
And now back to my original programming.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jun 13, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
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High Traverse writes:
"Got the data on that?
And now back to my original programming."
The numbers I found right here on this thread.
Monolith: "There's about 68 accidental shootings in the list"
And You: "Gun deaths (including suicides) 32,000"
I could probably challenge both numbers, if I felt like it. But I'll just argue one point at a time.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jun 13, 2013 - 05:42pm PT
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You've got to double the accidental deaths(6 month figures) and stop comparing to totals with suicide, or we get to count suicides as part of the gun problem.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jun 13, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
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I think they are.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jun 13, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
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Suicide means "kill yourself on purpose", doesn't it?
Can't lump suicides in with accidents.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jun 13, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
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That's what I'm saying Chaz. You said there are damn few accidental deaths cuz you compared them to figures with suicides. You should be comparing 150 to 4000. Not an insignificant amount.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jun 13, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
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Nope Coz, guns are an easy way to kill yourself. Try it with a sword.
While you are walking out on the bridge looking down, you just might reconsider. Sitting alone in the dark with a gun is another story.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jun 13, 2013 - 06:04pm PT
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I don't see a difference.
When you get to the point you're deciding on the method, it's probably too late.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jun 13, 2013 - 06:04pm PT
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Of course you wouldn't. (really, no different than a sword, lol)
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2013 - 06:23pm PT
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do we really need another gun thread?
No.
Although the number of gun deaths, no matter how you cut the semantics, in just a few months, compared to 10 years of war are a bit sobering aren't they?
Do we really need another thread of any kind?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jun 13, 2013 - 07:33pm PT
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Ron's primary 'source' is to pull shite outta his arse, then tell you to go google it yerself for 'proof'.
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A5scott
Trad climber
Chicago
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Jun 13, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
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published in the harvard law journal
full study here:
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf
link and cut and paste to short writeup
http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/
Harvard Study: Gun Control Is Counterproductive
I've just learned that Washington, D.C.'s petition for a rehearing of the Parker case in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit was denied today. This is good news. Readers will recall in this case that the D.C. Circuit overturned the decades-long ban on gun ownership in the nation's capitol on Second Amendment grounds.
However, as my colleague Peter Ferrara explained in his National Review Online article following the initial decision in March, it looks very likely that the United States Supreme Court will take the case on appeal. When it does so - beyond seriously considering the clear original intent of the Second Amendment to protect an individual's right to armed self-defense - the justices of the U.S. Supreme Court would be wise to take into account the findings of a recent study out of Harvard.
The study, which just appeared in Volume 30, Number 2 of the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy (pp. 649-694), set out to answer the question in its title: "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence." Contrary to conventional wisdom, and the sniffs of our more sophisticated and generally anti-gun counterparts across the pond, the answer is "no." And not just no, as in there is no correlation between gun ownership and violent crime, but an emphatic no, showing a negative correlation: as gun ownership increases, murder and suicide decreases.
The findings of two criminologists - Prof. Don Kates and Prof. Gary Mauser - in their exhaustive study of American and European gun laws and violence rates, are telling:
Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population).
For example, Norway has the highest rate of gun ownership in Western Europe, yet possesses the lowest murder rate. In contrast, Holland's murder rate is nearly the worst, despite having the lowest gun ownership rate in Western Europe. Sweden and Denmark are two more examples of nations with high murder rates but few guns. As the study's authors write in the report:
If the mantra "more guns equal more death and fewer guns equal less death" were true, broad cross-national comparisons should show that nations with higher gun ownership per capita consistently have more death. Nations with higher gun ownership rates, however, do not have higher murder or suicide rates than those with lower gun ownership. Indeed many high gun ownership nations have much lower murder rates. (p. 661)
Finally, and as if to prove the bumper sticker correct - that "gun don't kill people, people do" - the study also shows that Russia's murder rate is four times higher than the U.S. and more than 20 times higher than Norway. This, in a country that practically eradicated private gun ownership over the course of decades of totalitarian rule and police state methods of suppression. Needless to say, very few Russian murders involve guns.
The important thing to keep in mind is not the rate of deaths by gun - a statistic that anti-gun advocates are quick to recite - but the overall murder rate, regardless of means. The criminologists explain:
[P]er capita murder overall is only half as frequent in the United States as in several other nations where gun murder is rarer, but murder by strangling, stabbing, or beating is much more frequent. (p. 663 - emphases in original)
It is important to note here that Profs. Kates and Mauser are not pro-gun zealots. In fact, they go out of their way to stress that their study neither proves that gun control causes higher murder rates nor that increased gun ownership necessarily leads to lower murder rates. (Though, in my view, Prof. John Lott's More Guns, Less Crime does indeed prove the latter.) But what is clear, and what they do say, is that gun control is ineffectual at preventing murder, and apparently counterproductive.
Not only is the D.C. gun ban ill-conceived on constitutional grounds, it fails to live up to its purpose. If the astronomical murder rate in the nation's capitol, in comparison to cities where gun ownership is permitted, didn't already make that fact clear, this study out of Harvard should.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 13, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
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In fact, they go out of their way to stress that their study neither proves that gun control causes higher murder rates nor that increased gun ownership necessarily leads to lower murder rates.
best to note what the Harvard author's "stress", of course
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jun 13, 2013 - 09:11pm PT
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So more guns in the US would mean fewer suicides, fewer guns would mean more suicides. Got it.
Somehow I think the authors made some apples to oranges comparisons between countries and came up with a bizarre conclusion.
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A5scott
Trad climber
Chicago
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Jun 13, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
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the full study is a quick read... curious what people on both sides think
Of course there are far too many gun deaths and needless deaths of any kind. I think it's fair to point out that of the lawful citizens that go out and do the paperwork and background checks, more than 99% don't use their firearms to commit crimes. and of those lawful gun owners, the vast majority commit fewer crimes than non gun owners, for the simple reason that they want to continue to keep their firearms and use them in a lawful manner.
It's also fair to point out that the majority of gun murders (about 75%) are committed by gangs and career criminals, killing other rival gangs and criminals. Still murder, and of course horrible. These are the types of people that aren't going to follow any law that gets in their way. These are the ones that buy any firearm faster and cheaper without any fbi check.
scott
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Jun 13, 2013 - 09:40pm PT
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well sh#t, here i am with more ammo than i can carry and i haven't killed anyone - wtf am i ?? damn lazy no good no shooting people slacker i am...
i do wish someone would snap at the wells fargo mortgage board meeting or a party full of bankster hedgefund types instead of a school full of kids though - i will say that much...
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Jun 13, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
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whoopdef*#kindoo ;-)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jun 13, 2013 - 10:05pm PT
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This is a disingenuous thread based solely on politics.
The culture has to change.
That could be a key. Are you willing to accept that certain ethnic groups are largely responsible for this trend? Yes, no?
Are they largely legal or illegal guns?
To make this a blanket gun-thing is disingenuous. I have 4 guns, and never killed a soul, and have no intention to do so.
Lame argument. Oh, and the wars? Those were justified under ROE of the military. Bad guyz and all.
i do wish someone would snap at the wells fargo mortgage board meeting or a party full of bankster hedgefund types instead of a school full of kids though - i will say that much...
Or the IRS?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jun 13, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
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not suppriseing. there were more casultys in 3hrs on june 6 1944 than in over a decade of iraq and afganistan combined....
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2013 - 10:23pm PT
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This is a disingenuous thread based solely on politics.
WTF are you talking about? All I did was post an article, without any judgement at all.
FU Blue, you're the one that's based solely on politics.
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A5scott
Trad climber
Chicago
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Jun 13, 2013 - 10:37pm PT
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Hey rSin
I don't think there will be a confiscation or outright ban of firearms, even though Dianne Feinstein is on record saying if she could get the votes and ban guns, she would.
I should say, IMO, a gun ban/confiscation will never happen, but politicians will try from time to time, and actually succede in getting certain firearms banned.
scott
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jun 13, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
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WTF are you talking about? All I did was post an article, without any judgement at all.
FU Blue, you're the one that's based solely on politics.
I cannot comment on the veracity of you stupid article? I'm telling you what I think. Take it or leave it it.
Just seems people have abandoned common sense and logic in the gun debate!
As i said, most gun-owners NEVER kill people. Only criminals do.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jun 13, 2013 - 11:20pm PT
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profiling is still not legit. That's the problem.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jun 13, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
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You don't get profiling. Who is the threat, historically speaking? By demonstration?
Is it right-wingers or Islamists? Who keeps cutting soldiers' faces and blowing legs off little kids? KKK or islamists as#@&%es?
Should we gather intel on all Americans our target a certain group?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jun 13, 2013 - 11:38pm PT
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argument?
Muslims seem to be a bigger problem. Remember Fort Hood and Boston?
They should have been profiled.
EDIT: Why do think Obama shoots up so many people w/ drones?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jun 14, 2013 - 12:03am PT
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Yeah, the army officer with a f*#king MD should have been "profiled."
Columbine killed more than Fort Hood and Boston combined.
Oklahoma City killed even more.
So let's develop a "profile."
Get your facts together. And anti-depressant users should be on that profile list too. Cross-referenced with family gun ownership.
I should be in charge of this sh#t.
Anti-depressants and guns = No bueno.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jun 14, 2013 - 12:30am PT
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And try to think - anyone with murder in mind just needs to get a prescription, then open fire, and they can blame it on the drugs?
Your type never thinks these things through - too hard, I guess.
Um, no. It's people like you who fail to look at common-denominators in these crimes.
They are there, but LEO is restrained from looking at these things. I don't know why, but it's obvious to me. In every case. There are common denominators.
They are trackable without involving common innocent people.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jun 14, 2013 - 12:51am PT
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All I'm saying is that SSRI takers should get extra gun scrutiny.
Not me!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jun 14, 2013 - 01:06am PT
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That's like saying that people who drink shouldn't get drivers licenses.
How do you prove they drink in the first place, and how do you prove they crashed because of alcohol?
Maybe SSRI users should be disallowed guns. Database?
Maybe.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Jun 14, 2013 - 09:24am PT
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@jghedge:
I get your point, but you're somewhat hung up on how to work with evidence, etc. I think the first step--and Blue is headed this way--is to acknowledge that SSRI's and other psychiatric drugs are a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE problem. They absolutely lead to more violence, murder and suicide. It's a national disgrace, and the big pharma demons behind these drugs should be locked up and forced to take their own sh#t.
Read: Anatomy of an Epidemic by Robert Whitaker. It's one of the most important books of our age.
Hell, SSRI's are even making fish more aggressive! True. Many millions of prescriptions per year mean lots of this crap entering our streams, and biologists are starting to find behavioral changes in fish, including aggression.
I find the stats from Australia pretty compelling. However, I found these stats from Australia that a less exciting than the Daily Show clip suggests:
http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/violent%20crime.html
Seems like not that much has changed since the big ban. I didn't look up the mass killing claims.
Wait, here's the 2006 study re. mass killings, etc. in Australia. The abstract makes the effects--other than mass killings--sound better than it really is. Still, ZERO mass killings since the law was put into effect. That's impressive. Whether something similar could be achieved in a country of over 300,000,000 people is another question, however. Certainly, the Aussie ban should make us all think hard.
http://tobacco.health.usyd.edu.au/assets/pdfs/Other-Research/2006InjuryPrevent.pdf
BAd
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jun 14, 2013 - 09:34am PT
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Maybe we should re-invade Iraq and fudge those gun related deaths...?
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Jun 14, 2013 - 09:37am PT
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Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not.
You have to be careful with interpreting the data. It could be that nations with substantially higher murder rates have enacted stringent anti-gun laws. The study does not address changes in murder rate changes before, during and after the passage of such legislation.
The study only proves that statistics can be twisted anyway you want to prove anything you want.
I think the first step--and Blue is headed this way--is to acknowledge that SSRI's and other psychiatric drugs are a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE problem. They absolutely lead to more violence, murder and suicide. It's a national disgrace, and the big pharma demons behind these drugs should be locked up and forced to take their own sh#t.
To say that SSRIs (and other psychiatric drugs) are dangerous is like saying that flies cause garbage.
People are taking SSRIs and other psychiatric drugs because these people have a mental illness. It is their mental illness that is the cause of violence, not the drugs that treat of the mental illness.
Just to be thorough, some SSRIs are associated with an increased risk of suicide. This is because the medications work. Depressed people lay around and don't have much motivation. As a depressed person becomes less depressed, they become more active and more motivated. Some people may become motivated faster than their mood improves. A motivated but depressed person who is predisposed to suicidal tendencies may be motived enough to commit suicide.
Prior generations of antidepressents, like tricyclics, were also extremely dangerous drugs when used to overdose. Is the solution to stop treating people for depression?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jun 14, 2013 - 10:45am PT
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"Maybe SSRI users should be disallowed guns."
And alcohol users, too. Lots more violence associated with drunks.
Wait...that means you, blue...!
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Jun 14, 2013 - 10:51am PT
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Chaz said Are you counting the people shot by FELONS, who are already barred from owning guns?
Funny thing happens when you bar someone from doing something and then prevent anyone from enforcing it: they do it anyway.
Chaz said How many people died in car accidents during that same time period?
I'll bet it's more than 68.
So are you saying that guns should be registered like cars? Also, should shooting ranges be situated so that people are shooting towards each other to make it an environment more similar to highways? We could get much more comparable data that way.
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ncskains
Ice climber
Alaska
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Jun 14, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
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The Data in this report is majorly skewed.. Its based off news articles and no real DOJ Data..
For instance.. In Anchorage, It says Carl Richard Bowie III Was killed in Anchorage on 2/19... If you look at the source its actually a news report for New Orleans..
http://www.fox8live.com/story/21289973/deadly-shooting-reported-in-hollygrove
Then if you go to New Orleans they are counting the same person twice.. Zachary Carpenter Died Both on 5/11 and 5/17.. and one of the reports is just based off the indictment of his killer..
I spent maybe 5 minute researching the validity of the data, So this report is garbage.. and data is crap.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jun 14, 2013 - 02:59pm PT
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Prior generations of anti-depressents, like tricyclics, were also extremely dangerous drugs when used to overdose. Is the solution to stop treating people for depression?
No. but people taking SSRI's should be disallowed from purchasing guns. As an NRA member I'd fully support a database that cross-references prescription SSRI users with the current Federal background checks for gun purchases. Easy to do.
It's common sense.
EDIT: And alcohol users, too. Lots more violence associated with drunks.
Wait...that means you, blue...!
I like drinking, but explain where I have ever threatened physical violence? Or even suggested it (outside of legit warfare).
I'm a lover, man....
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Jun 14, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
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That's outrageous. Gun owners are incredibly responsible people who would never imbibe and use a firearm. Begone these scurrilous insinuations!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jun 15, 2013 - 01:31am PT
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But the same criteria and mental effects you use to exclude SSRI users from gun ownership also apply to alcohol users.
Except to a greater and more relevant extent.
Facts don't support your claims.
Alcohol is rarely a factor in gun-related murders. SSRI's are very common.
But that doesn't fit your neat little agenda, right?
EDIT: That's outrageous. Gun owners are incredibly responsible people who would never imbibe and use a firearm. Begone these scurrilous insinuations!
This is an example of the idiotic presumptions. And yes, I have held a beer and fired a weapon. (Not simultaneously). "Here, hold this"
You people don't understand guns. Or SSRI's....
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jun 15, 2013 - 02:17am PT
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And, of course, nothing about your "alcohol is rarely a factor in gun-related murders" nonsense refutes the fact that the same mental side effects you say should exclude SSRI users also apply to alcohol users. And alcohol, of course, is much more prevalently used than SSRI's.
You're an ideological fool. You fail to see the difference in SSRI violence and aggressive people who happen to commit crimes under the influence.
There is a slight correlation, but it has not much to do with my thesis of gun-violence and SSRI use.
EDIT: And your "studies" detail people "under the influence" without citing ethnicity or reason for violence. I would speculate that most of those crimes are gang-related, probably from the Chicago area.
To paint drunk rednecks as problems is somewhat unfound in fact.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jun 15, 2013 - 02:32am PT
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Then you go right ahead and explain it to us, numb nuts, since you know aaaaaallllll about it.
Make sure and include the before-the-fact, court-ordered urine testing for SSRI's, without which there's no proof.
Weak excuse coming in 3...2...1...
What is surreal is that you portray yourself to be all-knowing, and you appear to have little grasp of logic. You fail to look at past info I gave you detailing SSRI mass murders, yet claim some drunk gang-bangers are the rule.
Both are true, but you've wandered off-topic. My point was that SSRI users should be profiled at gun purchases. Not alcohol users.
SSRI users are clinically unstable, mentally. Alcohol users are not.
Get it?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jun 15, 2013 - 03:19am PT
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Your turn to cite the stats supporting your opinion
No?
Hahahaha
And another wingnut coward slinks away in shame, after being exposed for the fraud he is.
Again, you view this as an ideological war, This is the problem with idiots like yourself.
It's a war of links, and not thought, or common sense. You have no capability to extrapolate facts and ideas beyond what you want to see.
I'm done with you on this. And yeah, I own several firearms, drink regularly, and have no ill-will to anybody.
Just stay off my property.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Jun 15, 2013 - 09:29am PT
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No. but people taking SSRI's should be disallowed from purchasing guns. As an NRA member I'd fully support a database that cross-references prescription SSRI users with the current Federal background checks for gun purchases. Easy to do.
Good idea. Sort of. But I can see the Law of Unintended Consequences making a mess of things.
If you do this, you are going to end up with a bunch of "gun nuts" with mental illness who will refuse to take medications (or maybe even refuse to see a doctor) so that they won't end up on a database and so that their guns won't be taken away.
Will this make things better or worse?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jun 15, 2013 - 11:11am PT
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If you're like me, and think America is over-medicated, then that would be a good thing.
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darkmagus
Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 15, 2013 - 11:51am PT
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It's amazing that a simple statistic (total firearm-related deaths) should cause people to get so uptight and try to cherry pick and re-arrange. That's not how statistics work my friends! Agreed, however, that it is interesting to break the number down into categories. But the grand total will always be a revealing statistic, no matter what any pro-gun folks say. You just have to see our country in a list with other countries that have high rates of firearm related deaths. Check that out sometime.
Just stay off my property. <--- the vigilante fantasy. Dude wants to legally murder someone because "they deserved it". Would you consider other non-violent means of solving your problems or do you just go straight to murder because "it's justified" and you can get away with it?
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Jun 15, 2013 - 11:56am PT
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You're asking if mentally-ill gun nuts having their guns taken away would "make things better or worse"?
Ha-ha, very funny.
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darkmagus
Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 15, 2013 - 06:28pm PT
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I wanna go bouldering with coz ;-)
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D'Wolf
climber
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Jun 15, 2013 - 09:00pm PT
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Interesting...
rSin bashes Bluey because he suggests profiling all muslims because of a few bad apples in the bunch...
Then he suggests profiling all gun owners because of a few bad apples in the bunch...
Sorry, rSin, can't have it both ways. Typical...
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Bad Climber
climber
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Jun 16, 2013 - 09:09am PT
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@Sierra Ledge Rat:
I get your point, but you seriously must read Whitaker's book. In so many cases, these drugs take what would otherwise be a reasonably brief, manageable problem and turn it into chronic, debilitating issue.
Read it. It will change your outlook.
BAd
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Jun 16, 2013 - 09:42am PT
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When I was a child, my parents simply took things like butter knives away from me when they overreacted, instead of teaching me how to use it. Now it isn't a problem.
Your nanny state will simply take away your liberties and treat you all like children because a few of you are begging for it - can't use your own heads.
I appreciate being treated like an adult from the Canadian government in so many ways. I have a lot of guns, shot them this weekend. Nobody died. Can't believe there are Americans (at least that is what your avatar seems to suggest) that would want their government to make gun laws more restrictive than ours!
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Jun 17, 2013 - 12:35am PT
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you can't unarm this country. its like trying to undrug it. genie is already out of the bottle. everyone is high, everyone is armed. prove me wrong, please.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jun 17, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
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