Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
hunter4884
Trad climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2013 - 09:05pm PT
|
im 15
|
|
JimT
climber
Munich
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:01am PT
|
15, about the age I started climbing, 45 years on and I still donīt belay off the anchor. Guess Iīm going to die.
|
|
John Butler
Social climber
SLC, Utah
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:12am PT
|
1. can escape belay for doing a rescue?
A: You're either a guide or climbing with the wrong people
2. not gonna get ripped in half if a bad fall happens?
A: They are on top rope... how are they going to rip you in half? OK... I had a guy THAT BIG follow me he yelled take. I don't climb with him anymore.
3. multi directional?
A: So is your belay loop
The real reason to belay off the anchor (with an auto-locking device) is because it makes rope management easier. For me, it actually makes it possible :-)
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:55am PT
|
15, about the age I started climbing, 45 years on and I still donīt belay off the anchor. Guess Iīm going to die.
In my opinion, it is slightly more likely that the anchor-belayers will die, or at least have epics.
I started at 14, and it is now 56 years later. I belay off an anchor from time to time, initially to test out the process and the devices and subsequently because a particular configuration made it a relatively simple proposition.
There are two issues. One is what device or method you use to belay off the anchor, and the other is whether a harness-level belay is a better option. There are plenty of arguments about both, and I'd recommend you do a little searching and read up on some of the pros and cons.
But I also think the harness belay-anchor belay is a false dichotomy. Personally, I always belay off the anchor, in a sense, with the belay device at my harness. This means that my tie-in to the anchor is snug and my device is clipped to the rope tie-in loop, not the harness belay loop. (See for example http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1129, but I learned the method years before from the recommendations of BD engineer Chris Harmston on the old rec.climbing.)
With this method, you have the advantage of waist-level handling, which no matter what anyone says provides a better more attentive belay, and the load is transmitted directly to the anchor via the tie-in. No "ripping the belayer in half" if there is a big fall to hold.
The tie-in provides a dynamic connection to the anchor, which is better in case of a big load, since the anchor is protected by a energy absorbing intermediary to the device. Moreover, since the tie-in stretches a bit under load, the ability of the belayer to take some of the load by bracing is still present.
The net effect is a better belay for the second, at least in many cases, and protection for the anchor in case of a big load. Moreover, the method works for all anchor configurations, whereas belaying off the anchor is not always feasible if the anchor is not well-positioned.
As for self-rescue, you should know how to do it, even though the chances of using the techniques is miniscule, and the chances that some of the techniques, particularly some of the raising techniques, will work is also miniscule. It is true that a Grigri on the anchor makes it easier to initiate self-rescue procedures, but it is only slightly harder to set things up from other belay positions, whose advantages, day in and day out, outweigh preparing for events that many people will never experience in an entire career.
|
|
Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:16pm PT
|
Awesome question.
15 may be SMALLER than many partners - something I can fully relate to. I'm 125 lbs and my husband is over 200. When he falls - leading or belaying - I will be moved. I must be anchored even for toprope. Most of the time, I will belay off the anchor. YES - I have had occasions to tie off my partner and escape the belay. This is so much easier when you are belaying off the anchor. As I have been raising shildren, they sometimes require urgent attention while we are climbing. So we love the gri-gri and can readily save child/gear/dog/ourselves from any catastrophe. I doubt that my back could handle many falls when someone is nearly twice my size.
The idea of a dynamic belay has some merit in some circumstances. Keep in mind that the rope is an excellent shock absorber and you rarely need any more dynamcism than that - perhaps if you are one of those hardman on a gnarly aid climb. Belay devices slip - more energy absorption. You can make belaying off the anchor more dynamic by clipping your belay loop to the belay device attachment point. Stand alongside the anchor, a tad offset. The jolt will move you a little (absorbing some shock) and then load the entire anchor. Voila - some dynamicism (is that even a word?). My most pertinent case was my husband falling on a little loweball while my 6 month old was sliding downhill. Caught fall, tied off, and ran after child tumbling downslop. Adjusted my child protection system but continued to use the belay off anchor technique.
|
|
RyanD
climber
Squamish
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:34pm PT
|
With a bombproof anchor:
Put your new Grigri on anchor.
Put rope in Grigri
Pull rope
Partner climbs to anchor, secures themself
Take Grigri off anchor clip to belay loop
Clip rope in anchor
Partner leads off
Finish climb
Edit- get ridiculed on Internet
|
|
chalkfree
Trad climber
Claremont, CA
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
|
Agree with rgold:
-easier to manage rope (slack and tension) with belay from harness
-dynamic nature of belayer in the system helps
I tried to do a direct belay and lower off of the anchor this past weekend with two kids, and the positioning of anchor is critical and hard to achieve (whether belaying from above or below load). I had to abandon that attempt and go with belay/lower from my harness.
For taking and feeding of rope (and this is a biggy!), I get best control with belay at my waist. Also, I am from the hip-belay age group, so have no problem with doing a hip belay every now and then.
|
|
ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2013 - 12:30am PT
|
oh MAN!
I have been seeing this argument for a while, and it really shows me that the community really is split on the issue, regardless what one side will say about the other.
So many times I've found myself on the receiving side of a lecture while I'm belaying someone up a pitch. Funny, because I never get lectured for my smoking or drinking habits, which tends to be just as controversial.
At a well insulated 140, I have belayed (and caught!) guys as heavy as 240, while belaying from my harness. There were even a few times where I tested out what it would feel like to catch the fall with my body rather than relying solely on my anchor. Well, in all honesty, with the right stance, I was amazed at what was possible, without a bruise or sore spot(silly me, I was 'training' for one of those fabled JTree topouts where it's just a hole at the summit to brace yourself with no piece in sight. Haven't seen one of those yet...).
But I know one thing for sure, my belay practices are part of what makes me a dangerous climber, so climb at your own risk! ;) Seriously folks...sometimes I want to face outward...because it's fun, and I like to enjoy the view, especially of my partner grumbling up my lead.
I was also recently reminded that autolocking devices like the gri gri are awfully nice for untangling knots on rappel and taking pictures ;P
Rgold, that's a neat trick, I'm going to try it! A climber could miss the distinction, especially if there are a lot of distracting rope piles, totem cams, great climbing, and beautiful views!
Cheers
LS
Cheers
LS
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
|
You have to be an absolute nut case to belay the leader off a direct belay....
Who here is suggesting this and who taught them?
It is commonplace in Europe, where bolted belay anchors are more common than in the U.S. But the U.S. is rapidly catching up (sadly, in my opinion).
Here's a diagram from Panorama [3] 2009 http://www.alpenverein.de/chameleon/outbox/public/10147/p_sic_15517.pdf . Trad anchor with upward pull directional. (Note that in a fall, the Munter biner would probably collide with the anchor biner on the red sling, open the gate, and end up clipped to it.)
Here is one of the CAI tests for catching a UIAA fall with a Munter hitch on an anchor.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
There have been tests by the DAV as well.
Here is an IFMGA technical report on the matter. Note that there is much attention paid to using trad anchors, not just bolted anchors.
http://www.outdoorlink.org/research-papers/part-5-belaying-lowres.pdf
[One of the most surprising results of tests in that paper is that factor 2 falls directly onto the belay generate no more than about 5 kN. This surely needs to be explained in terms of the UIAA rope ratings which are factor 1.78 falls and generate considerably higher rope tensions.]
|
|
the goat
climber
north central WA
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
|
Is that "whopper" or "whipper" stories?
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
|
...getting your hand drag into the system as if you watch the video the guy almost does.
The Munter provides more friction than ATC's. Your hand will be dragged into an ATC too under the same circumstances, and more violently at that.
What you saw there is a technique Americans don't even understand. The CAI calls it the "inertial phase" of the belay, when the resisting hand is drawn to the device. Once the hand hits the device, you get rope slippage through the hand, which of course is worse. The video shows extreme forces controlled entirely in the inertial phase with no rope slippage through the hand---it is actually a far superior result to what would happen to most American belayers, who belay with their hand inches from the device and so would get almost no inertial benefit and be forced to control a sliding rope.
If you don't like the Munter, you can also use ATC's on the anchor, as well as other devices. See the IFMGA report I linked.
By the way, I'm not personally advocating belaying the leader directly off the anchor as a general technique. I've already said above I'm not even a fan for it's use in belaying seconds. But American attitudes are governed by tradition unsupported by any kind of testing, which is to say they are based on superstition (ok, maybe supposition is a less inflammatory term) more than reason and knowledge. The DAV and CAI, with vast financial resources and dedicated testing facilities, are many years ahead of us. The reality is that there are probably at least some situations in which a direct belay off the anchor is a good idea.
|
|
ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
|
I can't believe I haven't seen this phrase yet...
"It depends!!!"
Hahaha...
I hear that both the munter AND fiddly belay gadgets can make a perfectly supple rope into a kinky mess!
Guess it's just a matter of handling it as it comes to you...don't we love rope management?
Cheers
LS
|
|
Jason Kim
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
|
Thanks for posting that video and link, Rich. Lots of good info there.
I frequently see people belaying with a tube-style device, and holding their brake hand directly alongside (or sometimes, almost on top of) the device. This always makes me cringe, because it eliminates any hope of slowing the falling climber during the "inertial phase" and makes it very likely that the belayer's hand will get sucked into the device and pinched (or worse), which would seem to increase the risk of a total belay failure. I generally try and keep my hand as far away from the device as I can.
It's very common in gym climbers whose belay habits (and muscle memory) were developed on top-ropes, where the forces are lower.
|
|
J man
Trad climber
morgan hill
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
|
belay from trailer hitches is safe and secure.
|
|
Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
|
Even with a ATC or similar there is still lots of opportunity to get driven at mach speed up into the anchor and have your barake hand driven into the belay device. I've seen it and I'm sure most of us have.
This is very true. I did it Nathan last year, when i took my huge screamer on the pillar. I pulled him right into those huge boat anchors...
|
|
Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2013 - 04:13pm PT
|
I'm glad to hear you didn't pop the pillar off at the same time. It might have chopped the rope
Me too!! I still need to send that thing! :) lol. One near death experience per year is good enough.. ;)
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:51pm PT
|
There's an interesting video comparing identical falls held by a harness belay and a direct belay off the anchor. I can't seem to locate it by itself, but it is included in the following Mike Barter video, starting at 7:44 and lasting about a minute.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
|
|
RyanD
climber
Squamish
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2013 - 09:07pm PT
|
I knew this thread would be awesome.
|
|
John Butler
Social climber
SLC, Utah
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
|
So the belayer absorbs less force belaying a leader off anchor with a munter. The force absorbed by the leader increases? A munter doesn't absorb much, does it? Somebody ought to be able to do the math.
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
|
No, it is pretty complicated to even test. Most of the smacking the belayer takes has nothing to do with absorbing fall energy. And the CAI testing suggests that only a very small amount of belayer lifting has any effect in reducing peak loads.
Belays off the anchor do lead to higher loads, but I think not by much more than 10%. On the other hand, smashing the belayer around might lead to a complete loss of control of the belay, so that's the other side of the coin. For example, if you look at the belay scenes at the beginning of the video, you'll see one in which the belayer's helmet gets knocked out of position.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!