Angelina Jolie's decision

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apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Original Post - May 14, 2013 - 11:40am PT
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/14/opinion/my-medical-choice.html?_r=1&

Having lost my mother to breast cancer at a very similar age as Jolie's, and having two sisters who just might carry that gene, this gives me a lot of pause for thought as my sisters age.

To be sure, Jolie has access to medical options that are beyond most, but it still must have been a very difficult decision for her, balancing the risks of the unknown vs. her identity and her children.

I'm curious to hear the perspective of others here regarding such a choice, esp. if you've had fairly direct experience with cancer.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
May 14, 2013 - 11:53am PT
^^^ Wow that's a bitter.

DMT
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
May 14, 2013 - 11:54am PT
Are her lips for reals? Moosedrill's just wonderin'.

And billions don't insure bravery, nosir.

She's worth listening to as well as whatever else it is you pervs have in mind.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 14, 2013 - 11:54am PT
Many (thousands?) of American/Canadian/world women face this decision every day. The difference is that many western women can afford to be checked out and have something done about it if they choose.

What's important here is that Jolie, who is famous on so many levels, partly for the beauty of all of her "parts", is brave enough to tackle this and announce it, for all other women to see.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
May 14, 2013 - 12:01pm PT

Apogee, My girlfriend and her sister made the same decision after watching their 36 year old sibling, Aunt and Grandma die from breast cancer...Their Mother has survived two bouts of breast cancer .
With breast reconstruction and silicon implants..you cannot tell the difference.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 14, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
I thought boob threads were a bad thing?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
Man, that's got to be a tough decision.

How long ago did they have that surgery? How do they feel about it in retrospect?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 14, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
I thought boob threads were a bad thing?


This one's okay because no one objectifies Angelina Jolie.




Ed:not making light of the subject, just noting the irony. A good friend just went through this and fortunately, had the Health care to cover it. A splendid alternative to dead.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 14, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
She should sell those things on ebay to raise money for the cause.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
May 14, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
rSin, a bit vicious post as well as the article by Ruth Fowler on Counterpunch.

My sister died of breast cancer in 2011, my partner recently had a mammogram that was negative (thank the heavens), and my next door neighbor survived breast cancer in the summer of 2010.

Vicious self-absorbing rants do not help the matter. What do you bring to the table? What does Fowler bring to the table that helps?

Your negativity (and especially to a celebrity, jealous?) is not helpful in the debate. And Fowler sounds very bitter as well. I read her article, and I was not impressed. It was not investigative journalism, as Counterpunch claims to champion. It was an op-ed piece.

I have been a journalist on national titles and TV for some 40 years in five countries, Fowler's article was subjective, to say the least. Op-ed... certainly not investigative journalism.


BTW, I am not a Jolie fan by any means, really do not particular care for her as an actor.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
May 14, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
Apogee, they had the procedure about 5 years ago. They have no regrets, and are both glad they made the decision and feel fortunate they had choices.

btw, they are two beautiful~ sexy mom's...(-;

couchmaster

climber
pdx
May 14, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
I would not wish that choice, not cancer of any sort, on anyone. The sooner we find a cure for cancer, all cancer, the better.

Wish her the best.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2013 - 12:41pm PT
"A splendid alternative to dead."

If one had the absolute certainty that cancer was in your future, it would seem that such a decision would be considerably clearer (albeit still not 'easy').

But even with today's gene technology, there is no absolute certainty. After choosing a solution like this, one might always look back and wonder 'would cancer have struck me if I hadn't done this?'

And if cancer still strikes you years after the procedure...what are the thoughts that go through one's mind?

Edit:
Nita, how do they feel about their identity as a woman, even with such a procedure?
dirtbag

climber
May 14, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
You really are bitter.

Hats off to Jolie, who from a distance always seemed like a decent person. I applaud her for speaking out, especially in a business such as hers that values looks, including the looks of boobies.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 14, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
I'm going to miss them.
Baggins

Boulder climber
May 14, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
Hey Wendy, listen up! The US doesn’t HAVE A NHS! Women sure would benefit from being screened over here, but that ain’t news! You know what would be news? A Hollywood star with Angelina’s profile and power actually highlighting how f*#king disgraceful the United States healthcare system is, rather than waxing lyrical about her own f*#king bravery and encouraging women to plop down 3k they will never, ever be able to afford on a test to see how likely it is that they’re going to die from a disease they won’t be able to get adequate treatment for.

In case you didnt realise it, you can't find a SINGLE british person who doesnt think the US healthcare system is insane. In fact insane, cruel, inefficient, inhumane, and most of all, evil.

It would be pointless for the gruniad to even mention this as a background issue - all brits know about the US healthcare system and is probably why they in general choose to emmigrate to australia rather than the US.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
May 14, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
rSin, you are a bitter person, from what I can tell. Perhaps I am wrong. But...

And I know what objectivity is and subjectivity. I wonder if you do.

And again, what do you bring to the table?

No more wasting my time with a troll and a waster.
ddriver

Trad climber
SLC, UT
May 14, 2013 - 02:31pm PT
those expecting fairness will realize they landed on the wrong planet...good luck getting off it
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 14, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
jolie didnt do a think for women in this publicity stunt

wow, rSin

so having your breasts removed because the risk is cancer is very high is a "publicity stunt"?

were you born a horse's ass or were you dropped on your head as an infant?
Michelle

Social climber
1187 Hunterwasser
May 14, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
She can afford it, so what? Calling this a publicity stunt is a little off. I can't imagin anyone just cutting out body parts like this for no reason.

Having said that, since my mom and gmom died from lung cancer, should I prophylacticly cut my lungs out? Har har, no, but I'm struggling quitting smoking.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
My mom smoked for 30+ years before she finally kicked it. Can't help but wonder if that wasn't some kind of trigger for her cancer.
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
May 14, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
"rSin, a bit vicious post as well as the article by Ruth Fowler on Counterpunch." X2

I have nothing but respect for Angelina Jolie.

Adopted 3 children.

Humanitarian work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelina_Jolie#Humanitarian_work

Erik

crusher

climber
Santa Monica, CA
May 14, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
I have two friends who've had this same procedure after finding out they were positive for the gene. Both made educated decisions and valued their life span and quality over concerns about feeling "less than a woman" or some such nonsense about implants/reconstruction. One friend has kids, one doesn't.

A third friend got the test done because the gene runs in her family and her sister has had breast cancer twice. She doesn't have it.

It is a shame that many women here in the US and internationally don't have the resources that someone like Angelina Jolie does and that's a subject for another debate. I think her reasons for discussing this have to do more with her work for more humanitarian aid around the world (including better health care and screening) than any self-serving stupid celebrity reason. Regardless it's an important topic that deserves discussion as no matter whether you (in Tacoland) are a woman or not - you all have Moms, Sisters, Wives, Daughters, Girlfriend and Friends who this can affect.
abrams

Sport climber
May 14, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
Beyond brave! Best of luck to her.
Credit: abrams



apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2013 - 02:54pm PT
I had actually hoped this thread would be more about the impacts of breast cancer on a woman's life, the decision making process they must go through, and the lasting impacts of those decisions, and not so much about Jolie herself.

Probably not realistic to expect, given the amount of (inexplicable, to my eye) 'Bradgelina Hatin' that's out there. Ah well....that's ST for ya.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
May 14, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
Crusher, a sensible post. ++++1

Apogee, I think that this thread you started is a good one. One or two people may have made more out of it than necessary (including me?).

But less than 21 months ago I lost my sister to breast cancer. I was just responding to what I felt was an insensitive (and knee-jerk) post.

I probably should have kept my fingers off the keyboard. I do not need to expose idiots, they usually do it themselves.

Condolences about your mom, Apogee.
Anastasia

climber
Home
May 14, 2013 - 02:59pm PT
Trade in sagging boobs after kids for fake ones. Do it in the name of cancer? Yeah, not a bad decision. Nope.

I don't think it's a big deal, especially with reconstruction. In the days before breast implants, yes... It would be a scary and brave decision to live without breasts. Today... I think girls will do it just for looks!
That's my two cents.

As for folks that might have the gene. Do it... Your real boobs are not you. I don't see why someone needs to risk their life for a dang concept.


AFS
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
May 14, 2013 - 03:02pm PT
Anastasia, I am not sure what you are trying to say.

Are you being sincere or cynical?

And I usually always agree with your posts.
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
May 14, 2013 - 03:57pm PT
My Aunt had a double masectomy around age 55 and it really affected her. She was almost a different person...didn't smile as much and didn't seem happy. She was a teacher until she retired recently, a mother of 2, and still is married to her husband of more than 30 years.

I don't think she ever considered herself a sexy or pretty lady--she is definetely pretty IMO. Losing her breasts was very traumatic. When they are removed you no longer have nipples you look kind of like a barby doll without bumps...

I may be wrong but having a breast removed due to cancer doesn't qualify you for breast implants...you pay for those on your own (I assume--I know my Aunt doesn't have implants).

As for Jolie good for her...being proactive and not reactive is a trait I admire!!
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
May 14, 2013 - 04:15pm PT

What a brave decision, and woman.

I hope Angelina lives a long and healthy life filled with joy and wonder.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 14, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
She's also 37 years old and the old pert form cannot be possibly maintained - that starts going at about 30. So maybe she's trading up so to speak.

But it's a mighty bold move going for major surgery when you don't have to. She mentioned the procedure taking up to 12 hours. That would suggest that she's going for a free flap or muscle transplant (common for breast cancer) rather than just a mastectomy and implants. I had a free flap to close a hole in my leg from a compound tib fracture and it took 10 hours. That's a big deal.

Hope she comes out okay. I've always been a fan.

JL
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2013 - 05:06pm PT
It would be especially difficult to consider this strategy when a woman still plans to have children, and have to consider how the impact of such a dramatic preventative surgery would affect their ability to breastfeed. Jolie already has a couple of kids, so one might guess that this was less of an issue to her.

Regardless of what one thinks about celebrities and their social role, it's hard to deny that her choice to do this will help a lot of other women to more comprehensively consider their options in a similarly difficult situation.
pdxrags

climber
Portland, OR
May 14, 2013 - 05:20pm PT
I don't know enough about climbing to contribute to other threads but this topic I know something about, personally and professionally.

Apogee, my wife had bilateral mastectomies with reconstruction 8 years ago at a relatively young age. While traumatic, I wouldn't say it was a difficult decision given her diagnosis. I don't know for sure but I don't think she feels less "whole" or "feminine". I would like to think it is because I don't treat her like a leper and love her more than ever but it is probably because with our hectic family life she doesn't have time to feel sorry for herself. I will say she is happy she doesn't ever have to have mammograms again!

As a surgeon, I agree our healthcare delivery system is totally screwed up. I doubt Obamacare is the answer but at least someone is trying.

Mountainlion, usually reconstruction is considered part of the treatment and covered by healthcare.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 14, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
I'm going to miss them.
they'll be back
stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
May 14, 2013 - 05:28pm PT
I had read that women who have this procedure are no more likely to live longer than women who don't. So essentially it's unnecessary. Does anyone know of any studies supporting this? I'm curious.
Baggins

Boulder climber
May 14, 2013 - 05:33pm PT
Stich thats total nonsense. She has been identified as carrying a faulty gene that is strongly correlated with BC. Which means she has an 87% chance of developing it.

Following surgery, the risk is 5%. Id say that is a pretty bloody big difference, dont you?!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 14, 2013 - 05:41pm PT
I had read that women who have this procedure are no more likely to live longer than women who don't

interesting

care to post a link where you read that?
Anastasia

climber
Home
May 14, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
Sorry,

I am being influenced by my perception of her.
She's just not my favorite person. The way she acts around the media and during the interviews I've witnessed. She's way too out there for me.

To me, she's not that remarkable, even for this.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
"...she has an 87% chance of developing it. Following surgery, the risk is 5%."

I've got to wonder about those stats, too. I know that's what Jolie cited as her odds, but I'm curious as to what the source was.

This is totally anecdotal, but it sure seems like the great majority of people I've known who were diagnosed then treated for cancer & given a miniscule likelihood of recurring cancer seem to see their cancer come back (and usually kill them). Maybe I'm not hearing the actual diagnosis & prognosis properly.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 14, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
I'm already seeing some proposed enhancements on my google search for:

angelina jolie nude tits

but I'm far too classy to post any of them here.

(edit: bummer, looks like no more boobs thread)
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
May 14, 2013 - 06:06pm PT
Here is an article and some links that are informative in this connection.
This gene identification is a relatively new technology.
It is entirely possible that in the not-to-distant future a solution to the mutating BRCA genes will be developed ,making this type of radical surgery a thing of the past. We can only hope.
At least now they know quite a bit more than they used to .Just a couple years ago they did not know about these particular genes and their functions. There was no screening of the specific genetic factors .

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130418134121.htm
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
May 14, 2013 - 06:12pm PT
I think its kind of funny you all are so outraged over rSin's strong opinion. Does anyone honestly think Jolie didn't have a discussion with her management along the lines of, "If I'm going to do this thing, how can I use it to advance my brand?" Angelina Jolie is not just a person, she's a small industry in her own right.

It sounds like she made a rational decision based on a medical opinion, and understanding that it could not possibly remain private, took steps to turn the inevitable tabloid scoop into an image enhancement. Win win win, that's a successful business strategy.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 14, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
I'm pretty sure everyone realizes that Off White. That doesn't mean rSasdf wasn't a raging dickhole about it.

I'm just sad knowing that those bodacious ta-tas will no longer a part of her (or my) life.
Baggins

Boulder climber
May 14, 2013 - 06:28pm PT
I've got to wonder about those stats, too. I know that's what Jolie cited as her odds, but I'm curious as to what the source was.

As far as I can tell, this is currently accepted medical knowledge, based on genetic analysis. It has been quoted from other sources too. There is likely to be a bit of error, but despite this 87% is a pretty damn strong correlation in anyones books.
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
May 14, 2013 - 06:43pm PT
Naw Wes, I'm pretty sure anyone who quotes the "how brave!" line from the press release is swallowing the hook. Even you're all misty eyed about the loss of product that was never within your grasp anyway, and acting all outraged that someone could be rude! Whoddathunkit? Here's your startling headline: "Rude Posting Gets Weschrist In High Dudgeon" Has your new found sympathy for the super rich caused you to reevaluate your assessment of Mitt Romney?



Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
May 14, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
Oh, alright, I'll contribute some real information on the subject rather than just yucking it up. Here's a link to an interesting recent NYT article, which is what first came to mind when I read the original post, before rSin nudged me elsewhere: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/28/magazine/our-feel-good-war-on-breast-cancer.html?pagewanted=all

And if anyone is stymied by the Times feeble paywall, just open up a private browsing window, and voila, you have unlimited access...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2013 - 06:51pm PT
"Does anyone honestly think Jolie didn't have a discussion with her management along the lines of, "If I'm going to do this thing, how can I use it to advance my brand?"


Damn, that's incredibly cynical and ridiculously over-simplified.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
May 14, 2013 - 06:56pm PT
Thanks for sharing the article, unique insight. I prefer not to have such harsh judgements for someone I've never met, especially a celebrity being scrutinized by 100's of millions at some point.

You can choose to filter her article through whatever lenses you have, but consider the impact her words might have on a woman considering the procedure. Society has been male-dominated for as long as we've been XY chromosomes, it might surprise you that some women are hesitant to get 'fake boobs' to save their lives.

There's a whole 50% of the world that only recently have voices... maybe let them speak. Anyone claiming to know what goes through her mind, or what her life looks like, is full of sh#t - whether painting her a saint or sinner. She is human, regardless, so afford her what you afford anyone...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2013 - 07:33pm PT
rSin = War?
crusher

climber
Santa Monica, CA
May 14, 2013 - 09:37pm PT
I can't figure out what some of you are so pissed about (other than the sad state of healthcare).

My grandmother died of breast cancer, as did my second cousin who was my age. I have two other second/removed cousins on that side of the family who've had it and have so far recovered.

If I ever have this genetic test and find out I've got the gene you can be damn sure I will chop 'em off. Until you've been in that situation yourself you can't judge. Even if my insurance didn't cover reconstruction I'm pretty certain that living longer and better with a flat chest would be better than dying a horrid death and in turn, incurring more costs and more pain for myself and my family.

Let's look at this more as a discussion about the illness and not about anyone's particular digust with the world of celebrity. Think about it this way - if Angelina Jolie is willing to put her face on this perhaps she can help drum up more support, more funding, more research and so on. That is one good thing "celebrity" can be used for.
nutjob

Sport climber
Almost to Hollywood, Baby!
May 14, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
I think it's cool when people who have a large circle of influence choose to use it for good. +1 Angelina

And +1 to cancer research.

Aside from the "evil rich pharmaceuticals" there are legions of nobodies in academia who have dedicated their lives, working 12 hour days 7 days per week year in and year out to publish small obscure advances, that when all added up lead to something that keeps people alive and healthier and happier longer.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 14, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
I never thought she was that hot.

Oh...we are supposed to be more serious here?

In that case, I'm going to +1 Anastasia

Hate to be a cynic, but there is no limit to what celebrities will do for publicity.

You think they marry other celebrities every few years because they fall in love with someone else?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2013 - 11:16pm PT
"Hate to be a cynic, but there is no limit to what celebrities will do for publicity."

Dave, I've appreciated your articulate, rational view of many matters, even when I didn't totally agree with you.

But if you can honestly say that any woman...even one 'not as hot' as AJ, would have a double mastectomy for 'publicity' reasons...

You've got some 'splainin to do.
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
May 14, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
People Magazine says boobs will be passe in 2014.

You watch - by next year - all the cool kids will be boobfree!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
May 14, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
Some guys are still pissed that Angelina stole Brad Pitt away from America's Sweetheart hahahahahahahaha. That created a great deal of gender confusion for many of them.

DMT
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 14, 2013 - 11:31pm PT
The Brangelina Jolaniston would be a threesome worth watching.
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
May 14, 2013 - 11:34pm PT
As the father of two daughters who had one grandmother die of breast cancer and the other of ovarian cancer, Angelina Jolie's choice and words are welcome from a heroine.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/14/opinion/my-medical-choice.html?_r=4&
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 14, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
Dave, I've appreciated your articulate, rational view of many matters, even when I didn't totally agree with you.

But if you can honestly say that any woman...even one 'not as hot' as AJ, would have a double mastectomy for 'publicity' reasons...

You've got some 'splainin to do.

If she was going to have "work" done anyway, it seems like a very plausible calculus.

She certainly factored in the health risks as well, but we don't know in what proportion.

Anecdote:

I lived in West LA for a while and worked in Beverly Hills. I'm not going to claim to be any sort of insider in "the industry," but I stumbled into some dealings with folks who did. My boss lived in a mansion Beverly Hills and when my wife and I bought our condo (not a Beverly Hills mansion), he did us a "favor" and let us work with his real estate agent who turned out to be one the biggest hotshots in LA real estate.

Here's a recent article I found with her name:
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jan/13/business/la-fi-hotprop-20130113/2

She sells homes of the big celebrities - she was working on Brittney Spears property at the same time she was helping us. Her assistant who drove us around town was Robert Altman's niece and Mel Gibson's nanny.

So where am I going with all this name-dropping?

My wife became pretty good friends with Rory because, well, my wife becomes friends with everybody, and they chatted a bit about celebrities and their dealings (personally I didn't have much interest.)

One thing that Rory emphasized was how many celebrities took managing their images to bizarre extremes. Like I said, it's just too coincidental that they always marry other celebrities and mix it up every few years. Their world is actually quite isolated and values become distorted. Their marriages and, by extension, even their children are all part of a plan.

Yeah, I think it's very possible that Angelina Jolie's motivations are driven by a need for publicity as much as anything else.

It's working, no?

She's even got the ST promoting her.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2013 - 12:09am PT
"Yeah, I think it's very possible that Angelina Jolie's motivations are driven by a need for publicity as much as anything else."

So you really think that AJ's primary motivation to have a double mastectomy is primarily driven by publicity?

Sorry if I'm asking that twice. It's just that positing such an idea is about as tinhat whackjob as any of the other nutballs I've seen you carefully address. I'm taken aback, really.

Not to say that AJ (or anyone with a similar level of stardom) wouldn't consider the implications of such a decision on their 'brand'. Anyone who runs a business can attest to the need for care in this department. But to solely assign her motivations as primarily publicity-oriented is incredibly cynical and ridiculous.

Look...many people believe that celebrities should be 'seen and not heard'. I can understand that sentiment, esp. when a celebrity ventures into an area of very limited actual expertise. In this case, though, AJ is talking about a choice she made about her own body, and she happens to have a position in society by which she can make it heard. I can't imagine how such a thing could be seen as a negative, unless one looks through life and all that passes before them as something to be suspicious and skeptical of.

Edit: BTW...anecdotes are not the best way to form one's view of anything.
stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
May 15, 2013 - 12:19am PT
"care to post a link where you read that? "

I can't remember where I read that, but I will look around for it. It may in fact only apply to women that have already been diagnosed with cancer. This is probably what I was thinking about:

http://ww5.komen.org/Content.aspx?id=6442453027

"Findings from randomized controlled trials, meta-analyses and pooled analyses show there is no difference in overall survival between women with early breast cancer treated with lumpectomy + RT and those treated with mastectomy."

What Jolie did no doubt is very effective at preventing cancer in the first place.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
May 15, 2013 - 12:21am PT
I think what she did was incredibly brave and bold.

She's been undergoing this process since February and in that time she still managed to show up at a cinematographers award ceremony where her Blood & Honey was nominated to support her crew, went to the DR of Congo and Rwanda to highlight sexual violence during wars then took that message to the G8 summit where she gave a powerful speech.

All the while going through a physically and mentally taxing medical procedure. She's an incredibly strong woman who went through this experience yet still lived her life on her terms and responsibilities.

At 37 yrs-old she's still so young but took a preventative measure to insure her long term health against a disease we can now detect so early. As she said, more women need access to BRCA tests and I hope this will put pressure on insurance companies to help women determine their risks and decide their medical paths. Right now it costs women $3000 out of pocket for this test.

Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 15, 2013 - 12:29am PT
"Yeah, I think it's very possible that Angelina Jolie's motivations are driven by a need for publicity as much as anything else."

So you really think that AJ's primary motivation to have a double mastectomy is primarily driven by publicity?

Sorry if I'm asking that twice. It's just that positing such an idea is about as tinhat whackjob as any of the other nutballs I've seen you carefully address. I'm taken aback, really.

Not to say that AJ (or anyone with a similar level of stardom) wouldn't consider the implications of such a decision on their 'brand'. Anyone who runs a business can attest to the need for care in this department. But to solely assign her motivations as primarily publicity-oriented is incredibly cynical and ridiculous.

Look...many people believe that celebrities should be 'seen and not heard'. I can understand that sentiment, esp. when a celebrity ventures into an area of very limited actual expertise. In this case, though, AJ is talking about a choice she made about her own body, and she happens to have a position in society by which she can make it heard. I can't imagine how such a thing could be seen as a negative, unless one looks through life and all that passes before them as something to be suspicious and skeptical of.

Edit: BTW...anecdotes are not the best way to form one's view of anything.

No, I don't think she just decided to cut off her boobs to get a press release.

Like I said, it's very plausible since she's probably at a point where she is going to go under the knife anyway in order to the the required "maintenance" in that area (in her business, this maintenance is likely perceived as required.)

You seem to be interpreting my opinion as some sort of slight against women in general. I don't think Angelina Jolie is very representative of women in general.

Sorry about the anecdote. I don't have a formal proof ready. I'm still looking for the mathematical symbol for "boob."

PS:

I re-read your post, apogee.

Don't ask me any more questions under the guise of sincerity.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2013 - 12:40am PT
Believe me, Dave...

My incredulousness is entirely sincere.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
May 15, 2013 - 12:54am PT
To those arguing ridiculous things....STOP it!

A woman with a high risk of breast cancer did a preventative procedure against it.

No woman would ever go through the pain and decisions on this for "publicity."

What she did was incredibly difficult and courageous.

Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 15, 2013 - 01:03am PT
The link posted above has the 87% statistic:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/14/opinion/my-medical-choice.html?_r=4&

AJ wrote it herself.

Not much of a story here: Woman makes a no-brainier medical decision, had to endure a few bouts of minor surgery from the best doctors in the world, comes out looking better than she did going in.

A rough patch in life for sure, but no worse than than what many ordinary people have to endure all the time.

How is she helping the public here - by increasing breast cancer awareness?

Is there really anybody that doesn't know about breast cancer?

It's a shame that a tragic disease has become a vehicle for corruption and profit.

I'll wear a pink ribbon to work tomorrow.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2013 - 01:07am PT
"It's a shame that a tragic disease has become a vehicle for corruption and profit."

I've changed my mind, Dave. You're an as#@&%e.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
May 15, 2013 - 01:08am PT
Kos, she's one of the biggest stars in the world and has come out as having a procedure that was both physically and emotionally taxing. Do you think she did this for fun?

She even pushed for better funding so women can get this procedure which currently isn't covered by insurance and costs $3K. It should be covered if breast and ovarian cancers are prevalent in someone's family.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 15, 2013 - 01:11am PT
So you didn't really want discussion, did ya?
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 15, 2013 - 01:13am PT
Kos, she's one of the biggest stars in the world and has come out as having a procedure that was both physically and emotionally taxing. Do you think she did this for fun?

I think she did it for the reasons I stated above.

"Fun" wasn't one of the reasons I stated.

I don't get the relevance of "biggest star in the world" - certainly not when it comes to assessing her character.

She even pushed for better funding so women can get this procedure which currently isn't covered by insurance and costs $3K. It should be covered if breast and ovarian cancers are prevalent in someone's family.

She "pushed for funding?"

Do you know how marketing works?

You think these companies really give a crap about breast cancer?

http://ww5.komen.org/raceforthecuresponsors.aspx

It's all about return on investment.

How many movie tickets will her "push for funding" sell?

You want a celebrity hero, try someone like Bill Gates. I know, his movies aren't as fun and his causes are really mundane (I mean who even gets malaria anymore?)

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2013 - 01:14am PT
I learn many things from the discussions in these threads. Tonight has been no exception.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2013 - 01:22am PT
"It's all about return on investment."

Weak, Dave. Very weak.

Pathetic, even.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 15, 2013 - 01:28am PT
Do you actually have a counter point, or just ad hominem arguments?


apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2013 - 01:32am PT
Dave, I'm just at a loss. I'm sure you're quite familiar with the phenomenon here at ST when you come up against a view that appears to be so entrenched & irrational that there is no point in making any effort towards discussion.

Edit:
As I said, I can understand the skepticism that many have of celebrities who take on social issues, esp. when it's clear their actual knowledge in that area is limited. In this case, though, I can understand one's skepticism about AJ's past media profile, but right now she's dealing with her own body, a central part of her 'brand'. She has more expertise in this area than you, I, or anyone else. If her willingness to take this bold step helps one other woman to be more comfortable about a similarly difficult decision, I can't imagine how this is a negative.

Edit 2:
rSin = w*r?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
May 15, 2013 - 05:51am PT
Riley Wyna, I'm with you. (BTW, why do you want your account deleted? We all have our 'detractors' on the Taco Stand, and your medical experience and knowledge is valuable. Before Jennie's Korsakoff's Syndrome I was looking to be re-certified as an EMT and volunteer for both the Lifeboats out of Dun Laoghaire and Dublin-Wicklow Mountain Rescue, as I have some SAR experience. However, things have changed now that I am a full-time carer. I cannot answer a 2am phone call to go on a search/rescue/recovery and leave Jen alone for hours.)

Stick around Riley Wyna.

Unfortunately, due to circumstances I could not be in California to visit my late sister in hospital. Breast cancer as I have already written.

For that matter, my dear brother Mac who also died of (liver/lung) cancer last year. He wasn't a smoker, but he did have cirrhosis of the liver (occupational hazard in the wine industry), though he quit, just tasted and spat it out. After my oldest brother Casey retired from the Teamsters, he volunteered as chairman of the Northern California Teamster Substance Abuse Committee. He told me that people that had cirrhosis had a 34 times greater chance of liver cancer.

Anyway Taco Standers, I never was a big fan of Angelina Jolie, for some of the reasons that are mentioned in this thread by others. Plus I do not think that she is that great of actor (yes, many female actors I know preferred to be called actor, not actress. We don't say doctoress do we?)

But I highly doubt it was a publicity stunt. She gets enough press coverage as it is.

It was for her health.

If it is true that Myriad has a sole patent on what is a very important test, then the government should look at that, and according to Wikipedia (I always take with a grain of salt what is written there, good starting point though)...

BRCA1 Co-discoverers
National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences (NIEHS)
University of Utah Research Foundation
University of Laval/Endo Research – Quebec
Hospital for Sick Children – University of Toronto
University of Tokyo
Myriad Genetics, Inc.

BRCA2 Co-discoverers
University of Utah Research Foundation
Hospital for Sick Children – University of Toronto
University of Pennsylvania
Myriad Genetics, Inc.


...Then how the hell did Myriad get the sole patent if there were other co-discoverers? Something seems fishy there.
beaner

Social climber
Maine
May 15, 2013 - 07:36am PT
I may be wrong but having a breast removed due to cancer doesn't qualify you for breast implants...you pay for those on your own (I assume--I know my Aunt doesn't have implants).

In the U.S. an insurance company is required to cover breast reconstruction after a mastectomy to either treat cancer or as a prophylactic measure for an at risk individual. It has been this way since sometime in the 1990s. Most insurances will also cover genetic counseling and if necessary prophylactic mastectomies for individuals with a family history of breast cancer.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 15, 2013 - 10:00am PT
87% probability

She stepped out of the way of a moving freight train.

The only real choice in this part was the timing - do it now or wait?

(What were the medical trade-offs to doing it now vs. later?)

A difficult medical procedure, but no worse than what millions of people deal with under harder circumstances.

I just don't see the "bravery" here. Certainly not extraordinary bravery.

The medical choice was a no-brainier.

What she did afterward was for publicity.

It may help a few people in an indirect way. But it wasn't charity. She made no sacrifice by making it public.

She does know how to manage her career:

http://entertainment.time.com/2013/05/14/angelina-jolies-public-image-turnaround/
couchmaster

climber
pdx
May 15, 2013 - 10:30am PT
Dave and rSin: nothing wrong with making lemonaid when life gives ya lemons - especially if ya share the lemonaid with others.

That doesn't make her a Heroine, I wouldn't say it was even "bold". It may even be argued that it was cowardly. But it was a tough choice, she made it and her publicizing the issue makes her a decent human being, and if she gets to "build her brand" in the process, so what?
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
May 15, 2013 - 10:52am PT
Dave... C'mon son.
JMM

Boulder climber
May 15, 2013 - 11:06am PT
I've been lurking for a while, and it would be one of the OT threads that would be my first post. Go figure.

First impressions: there's a lot of mansplaining going on in here. Conveniently, a symbolic explanation of this phenomena can readily be seen in one of AJ movies: Mr. and Mrs. Smith. How do the two protagonists log in to the security systems at their workplaces? John Smith speaks. His voice is his identity. Jane Smith goes through a full body scan. She only speaks after her identity has been confirmed by her physical traits.

So how does this relate to AJ's Op Ed and to western culture more broadly? It means that women are not allowed to define themselves or their identity like men are. If you need another example of this, just look at Tammy Duckworth, who couldn't speak about her traumatic experiences or her physical state (her challenges, her femininity) without coming under mindblowing-ly idiotic criticism (e.g. she's attention seeking or she's "using her double amputation for sympathy votes").

Women aren't allowed to be ambiguous or multivalent beings (you know, humans) either we are perfect or we are attention/money seeking sex whores. You can't be both and you can only move one way (good to bad, not bad to good). After all, I don't remember Christina Applegate being accused of seeking publicity for her double mastectomy, but then she's always been so sweet and funny. We like her, she doesn't cause cognitive dissonance or rock the boat like AJ does.

I also think that, in large part, the trolls on this thread completely missed the point of the Op Ed. AJ's audience is specifically other women; women who have, just by being a part of western culture, been conditioned to think of her (and other actresses) as standards of beauty, standards to aspire to. So as a woman, I can say that it is 100% refreshing to hear amidst all the OMG celebrity this and that (as demonstrated by rSin) that for this moment in time AJ is admitting and embracing her humanity, her imperfections, her struggles--because this issue is something thousands upon thousands of women (and their family members) face every day. Did the fact that her breasts are part of her celebrity cross her mind when she pursued the mastectomy? Absolutely, I'm positive it did (every woman worries about her sex appeal post-mastectomy.) But not more so than personal memories like nursing her children.

Could she have said more in the Op Ed about the monopoly on BRCA1 and 2? Yes, but then, that wasn't the point of the article. And quite frankly, isn't much of an issue right now because a challenge to that monopoly is in front of SCOTUS right now, and oral arguments have already been heard, so what exactly is she supposed to *do (not being a lawyer, nor a SC justice)?

Also, Kos: when a woman goes in for "maintenance" or "breast enhancement," she does not chop off her breasts entirely. Mastectomies are incredibly invasive and serious surgeries, they aren't done for "upkeep." And while I'm at it, what she did afterward was not for publicity (although, being a public figure, everything AJ does is considered "publicity," be it good or bad). What she did was her right as a human being--to stand up and say "this is what happened to me, this is why I did what I did, this is how it affected me, and this is how I'm processing it"--just like Christina Applegate, Tammy Duckworth, or Christopher Reeve, for that matter. When it's your body, you get to own it; though, clearly all the mansplainers don't agree.

Edited for heat-of-the-moment grammar booboos and clarity.

Edit: Also, if anyone is interested one of AJ's doctors wrote about the process for those unfamiliar with it: http://www.pinklotusbreastcenter.com/breast-cancer-101/2013/05/a-patients-journey-angelina-jolie/
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
May 15, 2013 - 11:44am PT
+1 for JMM
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
May 15, 2013 - 11:48am PT
Yeah what he/she said.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 15, 2013 - 11:55am PT
Your opinion on abortion doesn't matter because you are a man.

Your opinion on child protection laws don't matter because you don't have kids.

Your opinion on military policy issues don't matter because you are a not a veteran.

Your opinions on race issues don't matter because you are white.

Now we just need to come up with cutsie terms like "mansplaining" for all of the above...
JMM

Boulder climber
May 15, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
I don't remember ever saying that your opinion doesn't matter, Kos. But I'm having a lot of trouble reconciling the fact that you feel like you are coming under ad hominem attacks while you are doing the same thing to someone else ("it's just for the publicity, you know, because of who she is and all"). You can't have it both ways.

*Mansplaining. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 15, 2013 - 12:17pm PT
But I'm having a lot of trouble reconciling the fact that you feel like you are coming under ad hominem attacks while you are doing the same thing to someone else


Ummm...you don't seem to understand what an ad hominem is.

The topic of the thread is Angelina Jolie. She is the issue.

Is it an ad homiem to criticize Obama on the political threads?

*Mansplaining. I do not think it means what you think it means.

It doesn't matter what it means.

But some of these are funny:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mansplaining

JMM

Boulder climber
May 15, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
Oh. Clearly I misunderstood. The title of the thread is "Angelina Jolie's decision" which I should have taken to mean "Angelina Jolie" period. And the OP's statement about hearing others' perspective "regarding such a choice, esp. if you've had fairly direct experience with cancer" was really some sort of code for "be all judgmental about a celebrity's past, while also coming up with completely ridiculous theories about ulterior motives."

Now I'll know not to discuss: 1. What she said about her experience or 2. The cultural significance of her experience as it relates to others with cancer and/or the BRCA1 or 2 gene mutation and instead attack her for being a celebrity. Because clearly that's the real issue.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 15, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
"be all judgmental about a celebrity's past, while also coming up with completely ridiculous theories about ulterior motives."

I never said anything about her past. But now that I'm the bad guy, it's OK to make stuff up.

(Now that you mention her past...that Billy Bob Thornton thing was kinda trampy!)

Carly Fiorina used her breast cancer as an election issue. Was that cool?

couchmaster's point about "making lemonade when life gives you lemons" sums it up pretty well.

But some lemonade I'd rather not drink.
JMM

Boulder climber
May 15, 2013 - 01:24pm PT
I never said anything about her past. But now that I'm the bad guy, it's OK to make stuff up

I was adding rSin into that, I know you didn't say anything about her past. And in a logical argument (as you seem to want, having opposed logical fallacies being used against you), making stuff up isn't okay. It damages your position.

So let's look again at what ad hominems are:

Criticizing Obama for extensive use of drone warfare? Fine and good. Criticizing Obama for being President, black, or Christian? General ad hominem

Criticizing Angelina for her performance in a movie? Fine and good.
Criticizing Angelina for writing about her experience because she is a celebrity and will allegedly profit from it? Circumstantial ad hominem. You are attacking the person (AJ) rather than debating the issue at hand (BRCA1&2 mutation, cancer, traumatic surgery, etc.)
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 15, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
Oh! You almost sorta got it right!

Here it is:

 Criticizing someone for what they are: ad homenim

 Criticizing someone for what they do: not


(General name calling, like "you are pathetic" is also ad homenim.)

And the "circumstantial ad homenim" claim is way off:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/circumstantial-ad-hominem.html

Where does a word like "mansplaining" fit in here?
crusher

climber
Santa Monica, CA
May 15, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
Kos, this is not "minor surgery". Really insulting to the "non celebrity", "regular" women who've gone through this.

Thanks JMM, well said.

JMM

Boulder climber
May 15, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
Criticizing someone for what they do: not

Wrong, Kos, but good try.

A circumstantial ad hominem is an attack on a person (rather than the issue at hand) that hinges on his or her position. Hence your claim that AJ's position as a celebrity makes her message somehow less valid (or not valid at all. AKA it's just a publicity thing) because her celebrity makes her an attention whore. Hence ignoring the message altogether.

See the structure of the circumstantial ad hominem here: http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/person.html

Person L says argument A.
Person L's circumstance or character is not satisfactory.
Argument A is not a good argument.

In other words, AJ writes about her significant experience. Oh! but she's a celebrity. Therefore, the experience is contrived for attention.

Mansplaining is when a woman, who is intimately familiar with a fact, circumstance, or experience, has a man, who is less familiar with the fact, circumstance, or experience, explain to her in great detail what it "means." In other words, you have felt the need to explain how Hollywood women get "boob maintenance" or how actresses are attention whores without actually being intimately familiar with Hollywood women, the pressures they face, or what it means for them.

Mansplaining is also telling me that the "thread is about AJ" when I have read it myself (I'm actually quite good at reading) and am perfectly capable of judging what this thread is or isn't about on my own.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 15, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
so,

given that Angelina is already a multi muli millionaire

why would one assume her motive is to "profit" by this surgery?

and lets say she does intend to profit, how would this surgery get her more profitable movie roles?

seems like the reverse would be true, that she would not be in movie demand much at all
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 15, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
This "mansplaining" is a wonderfully ironic word!

your claim that AJ's position as a celebrity makes her message somehow less valid

I absolutely never claimed that her "message is not/less valid."

Her message, that women should be proactive and seek the best healthcare available, is extremely valid. I agree 100% with her message.

I am claiming that her motives for stepping up and choosing to publicize her message are mixed.

Kos, this is not "minor surgery"

I do agree that my use of "minor" surgery was an inappropriate description of the procedure. I certainly meant no insult to anyone who had a similar experience, but I did a poor job of choosing my words in that particular sentence.

But I still remain cynical about those who exploit charitable causes.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
JMM, I was right with you at your first post....then got to this:

"And the OP's statement about hearing others' perspective "regarding such a choice, esp. if you've had fairly direct experience with cancer" was really some sort of code for "be all judgmental about a celebrity's past, while also coming up with completely ridiculous theories about ulterior motives."

Sometimes underlying motivations get lost in these threads, so I can understand your misinterpretation. For the record, though, I'd suggest you go back and re-read my OP in the context of someone who has been directly impacted by this type of cancer, and supports AJ 100%in her choice.
JMM

Boulder climber
May 15, 2013 - 04:04pm PT
I am claiming that her motives for stepping up and choosing to publicize her message are mixed.

So now we are back to the issue of the voice vs. the body scanner. Because she is a celebrity and, worse, a woman with an ambiguous and multivalent reputation, she should just be silent and let everyone else define her experience for her. (Shhh. Sweetheart, just stfu and let the tabloids do their job.) That somehow she is not capable of speaking the truth of her experience because anything she says will be purposefully colored (e.g. "mixed motives") to make her look good, which semantically affects the message (in other words, it affect the very nuts and bolts of her message). Hence the whole idea of "I'm just referring to her motives" is still an circumstantial ad hominem.

But I still remain cynical about those who exploit charitable causes
And the charitable cause here is what? And how is it being exploited? By whom?

Sometimes underlying motivations get lost in these threads
whoa apogee!--that post you're referring to was a sarcastic response to Dave Kos, based on where this thread has gone vs. the initial point of the thread. I think you initial post was excellent, and it's a shame that the thread got derailed by Dave and rSin with things that are completely irrelevant.

I'm actually not a huge fan of AJ, but I think she handled the situation really well. She made the decision that was right for her and she expressed her experiences beautifully.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 15, 2013 - 04:41pm PT
Because she is a celebrity and, worse, a woman with an ambiguous and multivalent reputation, she should just be silent and let everyone else define her experience for her.

[...]

and it's a shame that the thread got derailed by Dave and rSin with things that are completely irrelevant.

First, I am not rSin. You lose a lot of credibility in your arguments when you simply lump us together as one and interchangeably use our words.

Second, there's a prevailing tone in your posts that emphasizes the gender of your debate opponents. Would you be reading (and misquoting) my words differently if my name was Susan Kos?

Finally, this is SuperTopo, nothing is really relevant except climbing.

I can understand if you want to have a discussion about breast cancer and treatments - it is a worthy goal and an important subject. If you want to have that discussion I suggest you start a thread that is focused on that topic and leave names out. (Perhaps that's what apogee was trying to do here, but I think it was a mistake to frame it in the context of a celebrity.) I'll stay out of the discussion, as I promised my wife that I won't look at any more boob threads.

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
May 15, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
I agree, this thread did get sort of hijacked by a couple of people, who have beef to grind, for whatever reason. What kind of beef, I don't know. (EDIT Fillet or striploin?)

I usually like Dave Kos's comments, then when I really noticed that his avatar was Patton (or is it Gen. 'Buck' Turgidson?), oops, George C Scott (a fine actor, great in Dr Strangelove), I began to wonder about Dave. ;-)

I hope you do not think that was an ad Ad hominem attempt.

Just joking Dave. I'm just trying to lighten things up.

But it was a tough choice, she made it and her publicizing the issue makes her a decent human being, and if she gets to "build her brand" in the process, so what?

I agree with Couchmaster (and that is not often).
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 15, 2013 - 05:13pm PT
Sorry if I hijacked the thread. The way it went down for me was that apogee asked me directly for my opinion, I gave it, and then he started literally calling me an "as#@&%e," "pathetic," etc.

Let's recall that I never criticized anyone except a movie star that nobody here really knows anything about.

I should have stopped there, but I felt the need to defend myself.

These stories touch a nerve for me, I have a pet peeve with the exploitation of the sick and needy for marketing purposes, some of it based on legitimate life experience. Of course this situation is a little odd because I am claiming that someone is exploiting themselves (as well as others, indirectly) for marketing purposes. I got caught up in what believe is a relevant but often neglected ethical question.

Still, I stand by more core arguments, even if they are not popular. I believe my only substantial mistake here was offering a dissenting opinion in a feel-good "hero" conversation. Lesson learned.
JMM

Boulder climber
May 15, 2013 - 05:37pm PT
First, I am not rSin.
Yet, you are using the same type of "she's a celebrity therefore cannot be trusted to speak absolutely about herself, it's all just self-serving publicity" type of message. Though, you are more articulate about it than rSin.

Would you be reading (and misquoting)
(haha, good one)
my words differently if my name was Susan Kos?
No, because not all women are feminists. Not all women believe that women are equal to men or that they have the same right to speak of their experiences without being placed on the good girl vs. bad girl scale. In other words, because Phyllis Schlafly's cronies are still alive and well.

if you want to have a discussion about breast cancer and treatments - it is a worthy goal and an important subject. If you want to have that discussion I suggest you start a thread that is focused on that topic and leave names out. (Perhaps that's what apogee was trying to do here, but I think it was a mistake to frame it in the context of a celebrity.)
It was the point of this thread, as apogee said in his/her OP, before you jumped in with your "it was probably little more than an elective boob job that some attention whore celebrity put a positive PR spin on."

I have a pet peeve with the exploitation of the sick and needy for marketing purposes, some of it based on legitimate life experience. Of course this situation is a little odd because I am claiming that someone is exploiting themselves (as well as others, indirectly) for marketing purposes.
So then riddle me this. The tabloids would have published it eventually, yes?. So the woman come out and says, "yes, this happened to me. It sucks, but I'm handling it." And that means that she's exploiting herself and others? I'm really not following the logic. Should every person who faces a serious illness keep silent about it because someone on the interwebs might think they're in it for the sympathy points? Unless there's some information that you have forthcoming, there's been no proof that this was done for "marketing purposes." I, for one, saw no call for money in the Op Ed, nor any mention of the incredibly misleading Susan G. Komen Foundation, AJ's next film doesn't come out until 2014 (by which time this will not be considered news), and Myriad Genetic's monopoly is, hopefully, about to come to an end since their argument for SCOTUS was was very poorly presented. It is only publicity in so far as any information that circulates about a public figure, whether released by them or by someone else, is "publicity."
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
Dave, most of the time I regard you as a fairly middle-of-the-road type, but the comments you made last night....

"It's a shame that a tragic disease has become a vehicle for corruption and profit."

"It's all about return on investment."

...with the ridiculous, cynical insinuation that someone would do this solely & primarily for 'profit & return on investment'...

To my eye, those are pathetic comments of an as#@&%e.

Maybe I've misread your persona all along. I'll try to be more observant. In the meantime, you've been around ST long enough to know that when one puts out strong positions like yours, you'd best have a good thick skin.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
May 15, 2013 - 10:44pm PT
All based on 3rd hand gossip from a real estate agent who sold a house to Brittney Spears.

DMT
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 15, 2013 - 11:00pm PT
All based on 3rd hand gossip from a real estate agent who sold a house to Brittney Spears.


I did say that it wasn't a very strong argument. But thanks for reading my post.



Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
May 15, 2013 - 11:04pm PT
You're welcome. I like reading your posts. And I LOVE your avatar.

DMT
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 15, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
Dave, most of the time I regard you as a fairly middle-of-the-road type, but the comments you made last night....

"It's a shame that a tragic disease has become a vehicle for corruption and profit."

"It's all about return on investment."

...with the ridiculous, cynical insinuation that someone would do this solely & primarily for 'profit & return on investment'...

To my eye, those are pathetic comments of an as#@&%e.

Maybe I've misread your persona all along. I'll try to be more observant. In the meantime, you've been around ST long enough to know that when one puts out strong positions like yours, you'd best have a good thick skin.

I really wanna be done with this thread ... but what's with the personal attacks?

I don't know whether to laugh or be creeped out by this. I guess I'll laugh...nervously.

apogee, you don't know me, you have never met me, but apparently you believe your are entitled to, and qualified to, condemn my entire character.

All these years I thought I was living a decent life, only to learn that John Jacobs, a top-rope instructor, has reconciled my account and declared that I come up short.

And how does he divine this wisdom? He's read a few posts on the internet!
(at least I had a third-hand story from a real estate agent...)

Of course you also don't know Angelina Jolie, have never met her, and know nothing about her except what her PR department releases...but you are awfully butthurt when some stranger on the internet makes some critical comments about her.

(As for the "return on investment" comment, I was referring to the corporate donors to the Komen foundation referenced by the link. Maybe you were too distracted by your outrage to click. It is the case that I was comparing your Angelina's monetary donation to those made by these corporations.)

Apogee, we don't live very far apart. I always figured I'd run into you at a crag someday, shake your hand and say hello. I still hope to do that.

In the meantime, I'm done with this conversation because it's just a little too weird.

The last word is yours.








bit'er ol' guy

climber
the past
May 15, 2013 - 11:25pm PT
wait....climbers are actually talking about this on an online forum?

Really?

why?

down in the gutter w/ the other losers.

I haven't been on ST in a few months.

Haven't missed JACK!!!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2013 - 12:44am PT
Dave Kos = Mangy Peasant?

Yeah, this is getting pretty weird. How many avatars have you held over the years, Dave?

Edit:
I'm sure we could shake hands, should our paths ever cross. Like you, I'm actually a pretty nice guy, but I can be a pathetic as#@&%e, too.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 16, 2013 - 12:58am PT
Can't we all jess get along?

Credit: Reilly
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