Sacrameto Police Seize Child From Parents (OT)

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 1 - 369 of total 369 in this topic
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Original Post - May 2, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
Even you libs should concur on this one!

Here's the story with video;
http://patdollard.com/2013/04/im-going-to-grab-your-baby-dont-resist-cops-barge-into-cali-parents-home-take-their-baby-after-seeking-2nd-medical-opinion/

Essentially, some Russian immigrants thought one hospital was was making too many mistakes and they took their kid, without checking out 'properly', to another hospital for a 2nd opinion.

Child Protective Services went ballistic, called cops. Good?

2nd doc says the baby is good and the parents too.

CPS calls cops again, cops seize baby from parents. Still in custody, parents have limited access to THEIR baby.

I will be attending a protest of this crap in Sacramento before cops who follow orders of the nazi-like CPS agents. Wanna come?

We are protesting cops who put up with this shit! May 11th. And it will be peaceful.

I'd encourage all Nor Cal to attend. These abuses of seizing children for the State need to stop!

link to story;http://patdollard.com/2013/04/im-going-to-grab-your-baby-dont-resist-cops-barge-into-cali-parents-home-take-their-baby-after-seeking-2nd-medical-opinion/

The video is there too.

I know the dudes organizing this. I'll gives details too;

http://patdollard.com/2013/05/sacramento-protest-4th-amendment-violated-baby-taken-next-guns/

Map included. Yes, we're right-wingers, but this goes beyond that. It's Constitutional thing.

Show up! We don't attack cops. We just protest peacefully.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 2, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
Even you libs should concur on this one!

Great way to rally support for your cause.

You also need to find a more objective source for this story.

But I have to admit there's some seriously entertaining sh#t there:

Clarence Thomas: Obama ‘Approved By The Elites’ Because He Says What They ‘Expect From A Black Person’

Thursday Night Jihadi Bitch Slaying: BADASS Firefight – Wardac Valley 173rd Airborne Combat Team Fusion Co.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
May 2, 2013 - 08:52pm PT
Sleep it off. You won't even remember this sh#t tomorrow morning.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 08:52pm PT
Did you look at the video link from local news reports?

EDIT:
Sleep it off. You won't even remember this sh#t tomorrow morning.


Keep it up as#@&%e! They may say you're unfit to have kids if you have guns around, or you CHOOSE to select a different doctor. You'd be a trouble to your children.
rSin

climber
calif
May 2, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
given whos on their side

isnt it rather assured these parents were welfare filth dedicated to raising terrorists domestically?
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 2, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
They even have birther shit!

EXPOSED: Dem Party Submits Different Obama Birth Certificate To Alabama Supreme Court Than One He Released At White House Press Conference

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 08:58pm PT
given whos on their side

isnt it rather assured these parents were welfare filth dedicated to raising terrorists domestically?


Get yer Russians right. There are good one and bad ones. Does it look like she has a f*#king nijab on? She probably still even has a clitoris.

Check the others....(if you wanna go there)
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 09:00pm PT
Dave Kos, are you denying the story I posted? That it wasn't a local news story?

Don't run away, just answer...
rSin

climber
calif
May 2, 2013 - 09:00pm PT
so,
girls need a clit inspections before they can sit at your table?
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 2, 2013 - 09:00pm PT
Photos of "Michelle Obama" visiting Saudi Terrorists!


TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
May 2, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
This is a clear case of government-sanctioned kidnapping. Loving and caring parents get called into CPS and it flies out of control unnecessarily. Anytime you bring your kids into view (like a hospital) of the system, you are in danger of such an atrocity. They probably are not poor, as CPS wants people with wages so they can garnish them.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
Dave Kos, are you denying the story I posted? That it wasn't a local news story?

Don't run away, just answer...

Don't make yourself look stupid, answer the question.
rSin

climber
calif
May 2, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
a link to a link to an author who fluffs teabaggers and tv wrestlers...


heh



bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
This is a clear case of government-sanctioned kidnapping. Loving and caring parents get called into CPS and it flies out of control unnecessarily. Anytime you bring your kids into view (like a hospital) of the system, you are in danger of such an atrocity. They probably are not poor, as CPS wants people with wages so they can garnish them.


Don't worry, Jesse, us "right-wingers" are on this and will not let it stand.

Despite our other differences, this is beyond that! Rock on, bro!

I was hoping some Supertopo lefties up here in Nor Cal would help out..."for the children".....

Seems kids are only useful for certain causes that are partisan.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 2, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
I didn't see any local news story, but that page is a mess...

If there is a local news story, then whey don't you just post a link to the local news site?

That wingnut site explains a lot about where you get your ideas...

If this story is so important, why do you use it as an opportunity to score points in your petty left/right battle?

Real classy.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
May 2, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
That Rusky commie / terrorist mother from bluey's article is sort of MILFY.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 09:15pm PT
a link to a link to an author who fluffs teabaggers and tv wrestlers...


heh

How's this? Tea-baggers?

http://news.yahoo.com/video/sacramento-baby-taken-cps-returned-013110875.html

Inhuman as#@&%e!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 09:17pm PT
I didn't see any local news story, but that page is a mess...

If there is a local news story, then whey don't you just post a link to the local news site?

That wingnut site explains a lot about where you get your ideas...

If this story is so important, why do you use it as an opportunity to score points in your petty left/right battle?

Real classy.

You really cannot understand how this goes south, do you?

You are part of the problem, bro.

EDIT:
That Rusky commie / terrorist mother is sort of MILFY.


Hilarious to the Father of a dead kid and leg-legless daughter. Nice!
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
May 2, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
Bluering... You are a fascinating individual. I just want you to know that.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 2, 2013 - 09:22pm PT
You are part of the problem, bro.

Not sure what problem I'm part of, but I'm certain that you are not part of the solution.
rSin

climber
calif
May 2, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
remember folks,
conservatives dont care a bit about their children being abused,

theyre only care is that a CONSERVATIVE will lose the oppertunity to do the abusing

its all about keeping it in the 'family'
its all about the abuse aiding the idols they choose to worship

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 09:24pm PT
Mr. Davis, I don't know if that's an insult or not, but I am a man of conviction and logic, political correctness casted aside.

Woody, God rest his soul, was a dude I will be at that age. I don't mince words, I'm traditional, and I'm cranky. I don't think that it bad.

It is good! But most see that as "bad".

I like you though, Greg! See, I'm positive sometimes!!!!!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 09:27pm PT
Dave Kos, are you denying the story I posted? That it wasn't a local news story?

Don't run away, just answer...

Dave's back? Care to answer or concede my point, as#@&%e!!!!

You insinuated I was posting random blog crap. Concede!
LilaBiene

Trad climber
May 2, 2013 - 09:29pm PT
Spend some time following a few social workers around. Their caseloads are enormous, and the preference is always to try to keep a child with his family, unless it is not in the best interests of the child.

You could ask my younger brother if he would have preferred not being removed from the care of his birth mother. He was six months old when he came to us as a foster child. No one had ever noticed he was completely allergic to milk. His lips turned blue the first time my mother fed him. Thank God she was a nurse (and later a social worker) and recognized his lack of nutrition immediately. Six months later he officially became my brother.

We had two other foster siblings growing up, one went back to her mother once her mother was able to stabilize her life, and the other was adopted by a family with many other adopted foster children.

There are rules in place for a reason. I did not read the links above, but I suspect there is more to this story.

You want to put your energy into something that will make a difference? Take in a foster child and give him a stable, loving environment. Become a big brother and mentor a child at risk. Make a commitment to making a difference in a child's life.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 2, 2013 - 09:41pm PT
but I am a man of conviction and logic, political correctness casted aside.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
There are rules in place for a reason. I did not read the links above, but I suspect there is more to this story.


People like you are the problem! You don't want to read the story, yet you pass judgement!

Typical!
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 2, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
Keep digging bro!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 09:49pm PT
Keep digging bro!


Why do you never answer question posed to you? Are you a pussy? I will never answer your sh#t until you answer what I pose to you.

It's called dialogue. Capisce? 2-way street!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 09:56pm PT
Keep digging bro!


What's funny is that I gave you the link to the local news report and you STILL CALL ME THE LIAR.

Who is the liar?

I called your stupid bluff. But people like you will never concede. Know why?

You have no pride, or more more importantly, no character. You have no idea!
rSin

climber
calif
May 2, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
theyd call this ambulance chasing
if he could wear a shirt and not rub his crotch in front of us...



bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 10:01pm PT
What's also disturbing, is that we've been distracted from the goal.

All you feel-good as#@&%es should have been on this case. Nope!

I'll handle it with my Nor CaL bros. Be nice if others showed though!

Supertopo activists against LEO seizing kids? Let's see who shows....
Timid TopRope

Social climber
'used to be Paradise, CA
May 2, 2013 - 10:03pm PT
Bluey
lillabiene is not passing judgement. She is offering up a very personal account from her family and observations of friends involved in CPS.
Why do you always set yourself up on the premise of bluering vs everyone else?.....martyrdom syndrome?

I also usually do not click links from yahoo-based citations. Ain't doin' it!

When it rolls off the presses from a journalistic source I'll have a look. In the meantime keep banging your head against the wall with your perceived indignation.

LilaBiene

Trad climber
May 2, 2013 - 10:03pm PT
People like you

Which "people" do you mean, precisely?

And on passing judgment...it was you, was it not, that wrote that the parents did not follow the rules?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
May 2, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
I'm a "lib." I read about this in the morning and googled up other stories on it. It's International news and there are stories in the mainstream media.

I think this is outrageous. There should be an investigation and if the stories are true, people should be fired.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 10:11pm PT
I also usually do not click links from yahoo-based citations. Ain't doin' it!

When it rolls off the presses from a journalistic source I'll have a look. In the meantime keep banging your head against the wall with your perceived indignation.

So someone you know, like me, and I like you too, and Nita. You will trust me to make a judgement call bAsed on the news? The news did side with the parents....
rSin

climber
calif
May 2, 2013 - 10:14pm PT
4 out of 5 germans though imprisoning jews was a national security interest
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
May 2, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
Bluey, i watched the news feed, pretty sad. I personally feel like CPS and the cops should have Not taken the baby....That said, in no way is this a liberal vs conservative issue.. ....I hope the baby gets returned to the parents tomorrow... with an apology... and.......


Edit: Bluey, calm down...LilaB is good peeps....


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 10:18pm PT
Which "people" do you mean, precisely?

And on passing judgment...it was you, was it not, that wrote that the parents did not follow the rules?


Exactly people like you! I know your type! YOU ARE THE ONE PASSING JUDGEMNT! I actually read the facts of the f*#king story and made a logical conclusion. YOU! made a knee-jerk reaction to the story. And that is typical for you and your kind.


You people damage our society with this bullsh#t. Same thing in Sacramento. Feel-good as#@&%es think they know best! Let parents watch over their kids, not the State!

F*#king commies!

EDIT
:Bluey, i watched the news feed, pretty sad. I personally feel like CPS and the cops should have Not taken the baby....That said, in no way is this a liberal vs conservative issue.. ....I hope the baby gets returned to the parents tomorrow... with an apology... and.......

Nita, It is kinda is political. State vs. personal property.

I know you hate politics, but I love kids, and family, as you do. I will fight this one for ya~ You can stay out, I'll fight it.
rSin

climber
calif
May 2, 2013 - 10:23pm PT
commies?

that phrase hasnt had any punch since good americans were adamentally against women voting,

minorities having civil right
and employees not being treated like the owner gets tyo beat his kids and wife...

rSin

climber
calif
May 2, 2013 - 10:25pm PT
the only f*#ks screaming 'commies' where f*#ks who hated the idea of truth justice and the american way being extending to all human beings...

what are you getting at... you retarded pieced of american exceptionalist 'we get to changed the rules as we goddamn well like' bullsh#t?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 10:34pm PT
Nita, I will not calm down. But I really love you and your old Man. You are are people I would trust my child with. I love you guys.

I think what you fail to realize is that this sh#t will not stand, our welfare state, food-stamps, tax-the-rich, mentality.

The system in Calif is INEVIEVITABLY gonna crash. Ask smart dudes like JElezaian, Hartouni, or others.

We have hit a wall, or nearly hit it. Brace yourself. This stuff can't go on!

If nobody sounds the horn, everybody will swept away!

Won't happen in 10 years, but what happens when we run out of cash?

You and yours be comfy, and I'll raise the alarm bell when I see it coming!

I always give a shout-out to my ST bros. Be nice if someone came to our protest!

Cheers, Nita!
John M

climber
May 2, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
Blue, The second story you linked says the baby was returned to the parents.

You have this story completely screwed up. The police are required by law to take the baby if CPS determines the baby is in danger. CPS got involved because the hospital said the child was in danger. That was a call made by a doctor. So CPS got involved which is again required by law and had the baby taken and then they investigated the legitimacy of whether the baby was in danger or not. Once it was determined that the child was safe, then it was returned. This is how the system is suppose to work. Sometimes a baby is taken mistakenly, but often its not a mistake, and CPS has to lean towards the safety of the child, rather then the parents rights.

This report is from 3 days ago saying the baby was returned. So what you saw was just sensationalism.

http://rt.com/usa/us-court-russia-child-594/
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 10:37pm PT
the only f*#ks screaming 'commies' where f*#ks who hated the idea of truth justice and the american way being extending to all human beings...

what are you getting at... you retarded pieced of american exceptionalist 'we get to changed the rules as we goddamn well like' bullsh#t?


Yeah, yeah, commies were awesome...f*#k off and die~!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
Blue, The second story you linked says the baby was returned to the parents.


For like 2 hours....
John M

climber
May 2, 2013 - 10:39pm PT
Oh.. the the title of your first link is wrong. Police didn't take the child because the parents went to get a second opinion. They took the child because a doctor informed CPS that the child might be in danger and CPS determined that this might be true and they had the police step in.
John M

climber
May 2, 2013 - 10:42pm PT
For like 2 hours....

Please show a story which says the child is not with the parents. I see no story that says its not.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 10:46pm PT
Oh.. the the title of your first link is wrong. Police didn't take the child because the parents went to get a second opinion. They took the child because a doctor informed CPS that the child might be in danger and CPS determined that this might be true and they had the police step in.

How is my title, at all, incoherent? The Nazis still have the baby!

Do you f*#king people read before you post!
John M

climber
May 2, 2013 - 10:47pm PT
Please show me a story that says the child is still with protective services. And not that first link. I can't find one story that says its not with the parents.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 10:52pm PT
http://www.today.com/health/parents-police-removed-our-child-after-we-sought-second-medical-6C9708419

From earlier today...

EDIT:
I can't find one story that says its not with the parents.


And that's why I'll protest! You should too!
John M

climber
May 2, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
, and his parents regained control of his medical treatment.

Which part of this don't you understand? From your link.

CPS did its job. The system worked.
John M

climber
May 2, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
You ought to try thinking about what a tough Job CPS has. A doctor said the child was in danger. The system is set up to listen to doctors, but is also set up with oversight by a judge. What would you do if you were a child protective worker and a doctor told you a child was in danger? Would you futz around and wait to talk to the second doctor? What if the parents disappeared with the child? You do know that that happens don't you?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 11:03pm PT
After what, John? Regained control of their baby after seizure?

Do you see the Fascism here? They took their kid!!!!

But then gave him back,,,that;s all good.
John M

climber
May 2, 2013 - 11:04pm PT
The system worked.

Doctor calls CPS.. says child is in danger.

CPS determines after talking to doctor that the child might be in danger. They call police and the police do their jobs.

The parents protest and hire a lawyer. It goes before a judge and the judge determines that everything is okay, but is required to review the case after a certain amount of time has passed just to make certain that he/she didn't make a mistake. Thats to protect both the parent and the child.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 11:05pm PT
JOhn, the 2nd doctor told the cops everything was cool, and CPS still attacked! Quit defending them. They are vampires!
John M

climber
May 2, 2013 - 11:06pm PT
What you fail to appreciate is that children are abused every single day and child protective services has a very tough job in protecting them. They have to lean towards being over protective. So the parents suffer. Better them then the child.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 11:06pm PT
John, was is the kid deprived of his caring parents? After the 2nd doc said the baby was cool and the parents seemed cool?

Why?
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
May 2, 2013 - 11:07pm PT
Sounds like everything MIGHT work out okay for this family, since this story got some attention; most don't. Here's a website with horror stories from across our nation that didn't go so well, and details of the Stalinist procedures and judicial rules that are entrenched here in the U.S; as usual, follow the money:

http://protectingourchildrenfrombeingsold.wordpress.com/
John M

climber
May 2, 2013 - 11:07pm PT
Two opposite opinions. Which is why a judge gets involved.
John M

climber
May 2, 2013 - 11:08pm PT
One doctor says one thing. Another doctor says another. It happens all of the time.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
What you fail to appreciate is that children are abused every single day and child protective services has a very tough job in protecting them. They have to lean towards being over protective. So the parents suffer. Better them then the child.

That's not what we're protesting about, dude! You know that!

F*#k! Change the subject....you wonder why I throw profanity at you.
John M

climber
May 2, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
And yes... there are horror stories about CPS. Those get told over and over until everyone is frightened. What isn't told over and over is how often CPS really does save a child from a dangerous situation.
John M

climber
May 2, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
I have no idea what you are protesting.

Are you saying that CPS should be disbanded and we should not ever take a child? Are you saying that a social worker should ignore a doctor?

If they did that and the second doctor turned out to be wrong, then you would be screaming about that.

And if you ever cuss me to my face I will kick your ass.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
What we'll be protesting is the un-Constitutional abduction of kids by the State. That child had rights, as did her legal guardians to protect her.

It's Constitutional, not political. Remember the difference forever.

There's more of this sh#t to come after they pull stuff like this.

Stick together.
John M

climber
May 2, 2013 - 11:17pm PT
So you would stop CPS from ever taking a child? Wow.. I feel bad for all the children that have been protected from crazy abusive parents.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
I have no idea what you are protesting.

Are you saying that CPS should be disbanded and we should not ever take a child? Are you saying that a social worker should ignore a doctor?

If they did that and the second doctor turned out to be wrong, then you would be screaming about that.

Maybe they should be disbanded, or better regulated!

And if you ever cuss me to my face I will kick your ass.

Bold words based on really stupid sh#t. Really? I cuss all the time. I mean ya no harm bro, but if you tell me what to do? I'll kiss you.

Really though, keep yer fighting words in check, John, I'm in fighting shape....not!
John M

climber
May 2, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
Disbanded? Good grief. You really have no idea how many abusive homes there are out there.
John M

climber
May 2, 2013 - 11:27pm PT
Go volunteer to be a child advocate. The first time you make a mistake and recommend leaving a child with a parent who turns out to be abusive, then we will see how much you crow. That also happens more then you realize.
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
May 2, 2013 - 11:27pm PT
Perhaps you have no idea how many abusive and sinister CPS workers there are out there. . . . Two sides to the coin.
John M

climber
May 2, 2013 - 11:30pm PT
I am all too familiar with how messed up it can get. What do you suggest?

Should we leave a child with a parent until it is absolutely proven without a shadow of a doubt that the parent is dangerous?

Here is a perspective that I agree with.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080601121547AA2wiNA
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
Funny how the stupid, hateful conservative (bluey) gets attacked for defending someone from gov't Police-State sh#t.

I just came here for support from liberals who oppose this type of crap!

Yet, I get attacked. I will salute TMJesse though. Good guy!
John M

climber
May 2, 2013 - 11:35pm PT
You have a terrible way of asking for support. you insulted people by saying even liberals should agree with you, as though disagreeing with you makes them a fool or blind.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
May 2, 2013 - 11:36pm PT
Only in the most extreme case could The Government possibly love a kid more than the kid's own parents love the kid.

Does this case classify as the most extreme?
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
May 2, 2013 - 11:37pm PT
For them to be truthful, for one. Our family are survivors of the sanctioned corruption and lies that took away so much more than our life's savings over totally false allegations. I'm just now, after 5 years, starting t come out. I may write a book about our horrific nightmare.
John M

climber
May 2, 2013 - 11:45pm PT
I'm sorry about your situation Jesse. I wish things like that never happened. I also wish that parents never abused their children and that there was no need for CPS.

Now its time for bed.

Go volunteer as a child advocate Blue. Learn first hand just how tough it is.
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
May 2, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
John, our CASA saved us. She saw through the BS, hung out with us, and moved things to end our nightmare. But it was pure luck. Had it been slightly different, the truth would have been buried. I am both bitter and thankful for the system and how it worked. A long story. . . .
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2013 - 11:56pm PT
NIce Job, Jesse!
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
May 3, 2013 - 12:10am PT
Dare I say thanks? Of course! Thanks for this OT, too! A subject very close, indeed. And at times. . . . the left is so far left that they become really far right. . . .
John M

climber
May 3, 2013 - 12:18am PT
I'm glad that worked out for you Jesse. I have been falsely accused myself and know a little bit about just how difficult that can be.

I have worked in a church and seen both sides of the coin. I wouldn't want to be a social worker. Its just too difficult of a job, though in a way I was a social worker. I didn't have the authority, but I did have the responsibility. Until you have had the responsibility of knowing when to call the cops, you can't really know just how hard it is. You don't want to get someone in trouble who doesn't deserve it, yet you also know that you have to protect the child. Its a terrible responsibility of which I believe many people don't appreciate just how difficult it is.

Moms telling you they are off the drugs, and then they aren't. The child going days without being changed or fed. oh oh oh.. I promise. It will never happen again. When do you step in?

The problem is that the entire thing depends on humans. You can't make enough rules to protect everything. We end up trying to do just that and people get hurt. Parents get hurt when their child is taken because of the rules, and children get hurt because they aren't taken out of a home when they should be but can't be because of the rules. Both situations happen all too often.

And what do you do? Do you do away with the rules? If you are going to have rules, then who writes them? And who enforces them? The only thing you have are people and people aren't perfect. And sometimes they are just downright mean. Parents and social workers and cops and judges.

And even if they aren't mean, then they still make mistakes. Mistakes with terrible consequences.
LuckyJack

Trad climber
Novato, CA
May 3, 2013 - 01:19am PT
John, you are patient and erudite beyond what this OT asks for. That said, I'm a gun-owning-leftist liberal-parent who has been following this story out of concern for families' rights. It does concern me that this was resolved because there was dramatic video footage and the family went to the press. It scares me to think how misunderstandings could happen like this and not get so quickly sorted out. That said, I also have experience with CPS and I get your point that social workers care more about people than anyone else. It's not like they went into social work for the money. It is a very hard balance to figure out parents' rights, children's rights, children's best interest, doctors orders, doctors conflicting opinions, as well as all the egos represented. There was obviously a communication breakdown at some point in the story, since a reasonable CPS caseworker would probably not have authorized police intervention if they had understood that a second doctor had sent them home. But I understand the parents' fear at the first hospital too!! If they had been messing things up (I know what that's like, I could tell stories about that) Can you imagine if a hospital where you felt you had received particularly careless care said your child needs immediate heart surgery and a second cardiologist said you could take your child home?! It's a messed up story all around, but really I come down in the same place as the other John: everyone did their job and the system worked. It didn't work well, and it made the parents feel like they live in a police state, but it did work. Sorry for the long post, but it is a subject near to my heart, and I guess I take back my original statement, the story deserves as much patience as we can muster for it, and as much erudition as we have.
BuddhaStalin

climber
Truckee, CA
May 3, 2013 - 02:38am PT
Wow, blueringy is a real hot head, you're quite fast to fling out the sensationalism and insults without truly understanding what the skyte you're talking about. Calm down. You are actually doing the polar opposite equivalent of what you're "protesting". You're surely going to keep insulting anyone who doesnt agree with your under-informed, reactionary, and emotionally charged responses. If you have kids, and you behave like you're behaving here...watch out, someone might call CPS on YOU, tiger.

That said I think you are a stupid bitch of an as#@&%e and you should spearhead my purple ripple ring with your sharp little tongue....... and then shut the f*#k up.

You clearly have no knowledge or background on the subject, CPS's 'trigger happiness' sadly exists for a reason.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 3, 2013 - 06:34am PT
bluering, you should probably concentrate on your own issues before you try to solve the worlds problems, until then your like putting out fire with gasoline. Even you crazy righties should agree with this.

They may say you're unfit to have kids if you have guns around

Are you afraid you may have to choose?
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
May 3, 2013 - 06:47am PT
Wow 60 more posts already?

Blue, you fascinate me because you have one speed. Your a fixed gear bike ready to go all-in at the drop of a hat, ever ready to establish a narrative but more filter everything you read as a movement or strategy in your "game."

Put the pitchfork down is my advice. I promise everyone isn't out to get you, we are just confused is all...

Saying you "don't like political correctness" or "I wear my heart on my sleeve" often comes off as an excuse for being incendiary, I learned a long time ago that even if I was right it wasn't worth burning bridges over or putting out negativity because EVERYONE is right - that's why we have opposing opinions.

I'd read the articles but all I got up in idy is a cracked iPhone :/ I'm sure you have a good cause but the banter makes me a bit nauseous.
dirtbag

climber
May 3, 2013 - 09:18am PT
Have a nice day.
squishy

Mountain climber
May 3, 2013 - 09:29am PT
ok ok , let me get this straight, you want to go protest against the big liberal natzi machine because some Russian family can't stop for a moment and do the proper thing and check their child out of a hospital correctly? Are you F'in insane? The hospital becomes responsible for the child when they come in, if the parents signed the papers to get in, they should be able to sign them on the way out, too easy right? instead they displayed complete negligence and a disregard for the system. Maybe it was a little much for them to get their baby taken away but who the hell are you to say there wasn't other good reasons, like a history of this type of behavior.

And you want to go protest, with truthers and teabaggers no less...some of the most discredited folks in politics, the lunatic fringe...

and to top it off you want others to join you...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH

You a funny guy...



Just so you know, there's children starving in homes across this nation right now...but F them right? Lets go after the man who is trying to help them...
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 3, 2013 - 09:37am PT
Why are you lecturing him? He's not even up yet.....
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
May 3, 2013 - 09:42am PT
Might want to tone that mouth down a little Bluetard, before it gets closed for you.
coz

Gym climber
Belmont
May 3, 2013 - 09:46am PT
+1

Russ told be some very good advice, that I wish I took, "Don't post when you're drinking."

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 3, 2013 - 10:12am PT
Bluey, a very successful troll. Congratulations.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
May 3, 2013 - 11:00am PT
I'm sure Blue is a nice person to hang with face to face, but he comes off as completely clueless in interpersonal communication on the internet.

I've tried to ask nicely for him to join the conversation rather than stand outside and yell at it on more than one occasion. His answer has always been a resounding FU.

He is beyond hope. There is no reasoning with his Fox News and alcohol addled brain.

Best of luck, dude. You're going to need it.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 3, 2013 - 11:10am PT
There is no reasoning with his Fox News and alcohol addled brain.

Fox News is for lightweights.

Real Real Americans get their news from PatDollard.com !

http://patdollard.com/2013/05/becks-houston-airport-suicide-theory-may-have-been-anti-gun-setup/

http://patdollard.com/2013/05/ben-shapiro-slams-piers-morgan-in-battle-over-gay-nba-player-coming-out-why-do-you-hate-america-so-much/
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
May 3, 2013 - 11:10am PT
FYI 300 Richard's BLVD, where the protest is being held, is 2 minutes from Sacramento Pipeworks. :) (Climbing related sorry!)
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
May 3, 2013 - 11:20am PT
Regardless of what political tit you suck on, this affects everyone. If it can happen to them, it can happen to you.



Don't let cops into your house ever, unless they have a warrant. Some more police BS.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2a0_1367524519
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 3, 2013 - 11:26am PT
Pat Dullard? Never heard of him.

Great, give these whacks another place to get all foamed up about. :o)

Edit: After watching the video, it does seem that this is about not signing out of hosp #1.

The parents are young, seem smart, very concerned about their baby. Example, they were regularly taking him for appointments on his heart murmur. They took him to hosp #1 because of flu like symptoms. That's not neglect.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 3, 2013 - 11:55am PT
EVERYONE is right - that's why we have opposing opinions.

It's sad how few people respect the intellect of those with whom they disagree. Perhaps it's a product of people getting their information from non-objective sources. In any case, I greatly appreciate your recognition of this fact. Then again, if everyone treated opposing viewpoints with politeness and respect, this forum would lose a great deal of its entertainment value.

John
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
May 3, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
Sacramento CPS just put that kid on a Nevada-bound grayhound. Gave him two sippy cups and and instructions for breast feeding and directions to the Nevada State Mental hospital, with love.

DMT
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 3, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
This will absolutely end up with the baby back with its parents for one simple reason. There's no money is not doing so. In fact the state would otherwise underwrite this kid for many years, and they simply are no going to ever do that. This is just some zealot showing who's boss for a moment in time. The really story with such things is not the immediate flare up and all the bosh people spew, but how the situation eventually ends up, once the "story" has died off.

Just watch. The whole thing will go straight back to where it started.

JL
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 3, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
It's sad how few people respect the intellect of those with whom they disagree.

John, what else is there to do. Any one who does not share my opinions, is quite obviously a moron, possibly in need of institutionalization.

On a serious note, do we have both sides of this story yet? The Channel 10 story seemed to come from only the parents.

They took they child out of ICU? Why wouldn't a hospital be concerned about that?
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
May 3, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
"Any one who does not share my opinions, is quite obviously a moron, possibly in need of institutionalization."

Nice!
Erik
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
May 3, 2013 - 05:11pm PT

"Woody, God rest his soul, was a dude I will be at that age"...


Not meant as an insult...

But that comparison is quite a stretch in my honest opinion...

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2013 - 05:53pm PT

Saying you "don't like political correctness" or "I wear my heart on my sleeve" often comes off as an excuse for being incendiary, I learned a long time ago that even if I was right it wasn't worth burning bridges over or putting out negativity because EVERYONE is right - that's why we have opposing opinions.

I do not do sh#t or say sh#t to "get along", Greg. I do what I feel is right in my heart.

These people were jack-booted by CPS!!!!
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
May 3, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
I do not do sh#t or say sh#t to "get along", Greg. I do what I feel is right in my heart.


Your heart, as an observer on this messageboard, is full of absolute seething hate. Just my $.02. You have many valid points, all get lost in the shuffle. Just like Ken M and a handful of others. Has nothing to do with political offiliation, of which I don't consider you a 'republican' but an independent with both progressive and conservative ideas.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2013 - 06:09pm PT

Your heart, as an observer on this messageboard, is full of absolute seething hate. Just my $.02. You have many valid points, all get lost in the shuffle. Just like Ken M and a handful of others. Has nothing to do with political offiliation, of which I don't consider you a 'republican' but an independent with both progressive and conservative ideas.

What people fail to realize on my side of the aisle, is that getting mad is not necessarily bad, or hateful IMO.

I'm just fed up with this bullshit where the State can seize a child! For no demonstrable reason!

If you don't find that troubling, follow the rest of the sheep to the trough. I will not go kindly.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
May 3, 2013 - 06:13pm PT
What people fail to realize on my side of the aisle, is that getting mad is not necessarily bad, or hateful IMO.

Your aisle sucks. Be nice to lila.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 3, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
It never really happened it was a hoax are you all f*#king stupid or what?


just like sandy hook, columbine etc. etc.
rSin

climber
calif
May 3, 2013 - 09:41pm PT
and rather than respond in a fashion which would assist the agency and those it involves in the future in its opperations

you trotted out your 'drown the gubmint in the bathtub' credentials
in hopes that the lions share of good work the agency does all day every day

can be halted and stopped. giving all the real monsters out there sticking it to children

given them breathing room



its as if you actaully want more harm to come to children who are mostly...

how would you characterize social services usual clients?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 07:59pm PT
Another call for support. This is non-partisan. It's a 4th Amendment issue. That could effect us all. Unlawful search AND then UNLAWFUL SEIZURE OF A BABY.

Venue changed to Sacramento City Hall; http://patdollard.com/2013/05/sacramento-protest-4th-amendment-violated-baby-taken-next-guns/

I'll be there, will you? Wouldn't you want people to help you in this situation?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
May 8, 2013 - 08:40pm PT
For no demonstrable reason!

Obviously... there was a demonstrable reason... Otherwise the baby would not have been seized....

As someone who frequently sees abused infants as part of my professional responsibilities, and as someone who frequently calls CPS for immediate interventions, I can say that infants are not seized for "no reason."

In the interest of avoiding having a dead baby, CPS often responds quickly and decisively for protection, and then sorts out the details after the child is protected.

I am bound by law to report, and CPS is bound by law to act. Following the rule of law, is, by definition, not "unlawful."

Obviously in this case, CPS has very serious concerns about the parents - and you are not getting this information from your news sources. Alternatively, someone at CPS got a wild hair up their ass and acted in spite. Time will sort this one out.

There will always be conflicts between parents and CPS in these cases. Always. The only way to avoid these conflicts is to suspend the U.S. Constitution and make no efforts to protect children from anyone or anything..
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 8, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
Is blurring really THE dumbest mothafuka on the planet?

This is non-partisan

Right. Any morans can attend, regardless of political affiliation.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 8, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
Remember this is from the guy who thinks teachers should carry guns, just in case, ya know better safe than sorry
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 08:48pm PT
Obviously... there was a demonstrable reason... Otherwise the baby would not have been seized....

Did you read the story before your pretentious statements? Read it!

A second doctor TOLD CPS AND THE F*#KING POLICE THAT EVERYTHING WAS OKAY! And they were released. Only to be assaulted by CPS and the police again.

They will be rightfully sued for 4th Amendment violations.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
May 8, 2013 - 08:52pm PT
Yes, one doctor said that he/she had no worries.

But what did the other doctors say/observe?
What did the other nurses say/observe?
What did the other witnesses say/observe?
What other facts are missing?

If CPS received concerning information, they are bound by law to act decisively.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
Did you read the story, Sierra, and the progression of events? Or are you just knee-jerking for CPS?

Read the story and progression of events! It's f*#ked up!!!
sullly

Trad climber
May 8, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
This thread could use a little Stanley Kowalski:
"I am not a Polack. People from Poland are Poles, not Polacks. But what I am is a one hundred percent American, born and raised in the greatest country on earth and proud as hell of it, so don’t ever call me a Polack."
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
I'll help you, Sierra.

Kid goes to hospital for fear of flu. Mom is concerned that nurse does not know why she's injecting kid with 'unknown substance'. Mom says she is leaving to get another opinion.

She unlawfully leaves without checking out properly. CPS and cops called to meet her at 2nd hospital that Mom indicated.

2nd hospital doctor tells cops and CPS that it's all good, the Mom and kid are fine and they can go home.

Cops and CPS crash their house afterwards and seize baby! For 2 days! For no DEMONSTRABLE REASON!!!!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
I can give rides to anybody wanting to go too. I'm flying solo.

Interesting how much hate I get on this too. Should be a non-partisan issue...
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
May 8, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
Did you read the story, Sierra, and the progression of events? Or are you just knee-jerking for CPS?

Yes, I read the entire story and watched the video. I also know that there are always 3 sides to every story: (1) One person's side, (2) the other person's side, and (3) the truth. You are not getting all of the facts.

CPS cannot release a lot of information right now because they are investigating the circumstances. It's likely that all they have now is hearsay and they can't be holding press conferences anouncing that so-and-so alleges that mama and papa did such-and-such to the baby. It's still hearsay.

CPS may have enough hearsay concerning information to act to protect, but not enough supported factual data to hold a press conference.

Put yourself in the position of CPS. They walk a fine line between respecting the consitution rights of the parents and protecting the constitutional rights of children who can't protect themselves. By law, they are required to err on the side of the child.

But you might be right. This may all be the result of an angry or disgruntled CPS worked who deserves to be fired.

BTW - there is no such thing as "unlawfully" leaving a hospital. It's a free country, you can leave a hospital at any time without checking out. Parents can take their children out of a hospital without checking out, and it's all perfectly legal. The issue here has nothing to do with the parents leaving the hospital "illegally." There is no such thing.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 09:15pm PT
Put yourself in the position of CPS. They walk a fine line between respecting the consitution rights of the parents and protecting the constitutional rights of children who can't protect themselves.

No matter what CPS does, someone is going to be unhappy.

Well, I have a feeling, after listening to their lawyer on the radio, that CPS is screwed. They acted improperly, with no legal regard, or they would have stated it as they seized the baby.

Sacramento PD will pay as well.

After a physician deems the child/Mom safe, why aren't CPS obliged to get a f*#king warrant? They crossed a legal and Constitutional line!

CPS has too much power, that is clear in this case.

EDIT:
But you might be right. This may all be the result of an angry or disgruntled CPS worked who deserves to be fired.

I think that is what happened. But Sac PD followed their unreasonable demands! They are liable too. They should have known better.

The damage here is mucho. The Mom and child were mentally traumatized, but the precedent is dangerous as well!!!

EDIT:
protecting the constitutional rights of children who can't protect themselves. By law, they are required to err on the side of the child.
I wonder how you feel about the current Gosnell abortion cases. Did those lie-born babies have rights???

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 8, 2013 - 09:20pm PT
She unlawfully leaves...

and you wonder why the Police got involved? fuking genius!

Interesting how much hate I get on this too. Should be a non-partisan issue...

Politics has nothing to do with you being an idiot.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 8, 2013 - 09:20pm PT
AWESOME if they acted inappropriately tax dollars can be used to pay some massive settlement to the family.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
May 8, 2013 - 09:22pm PT
After a physician deems the child/Mom safe, why aren't CPS obliged to get a f*#king warrant?

No.

If one physician says the child is fine, but a nurse sees the father brutally beat the infant, does CPS ignore the nurse's information just because a physician said the baby is safe?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 09:25pm PT
and you wonder why the Police got involved? fuking genius!

Pisschrist, did you read the whole thing? Or are you just picking and choosing as usual?

Who's the ingenius, he who judges after reading all of the facts of the story, or he who just makes judgements off one line of the story?

Ask yourself that...genius.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 09:27pm PT
No.

If one physician says the child is fine, but a nurse sees the father brutally beat the infant, does CPS ignore the nurse's information just because a physician said the baby is safe?


I know, but that didn't happen here. It was clear the 2nd doc cleared them.

EDIT:
Now the ironic thing is this is just a talk show bullshit topic designed to do one thing - enrich the host of that talk show by inciting ignorant and easily duped people into emotional reactions by stoking their fears of being held accountable.

What talk-show covered this?

If the CPS erred in removing that kid, we'll get it figured out. At least there is a kid to fight over...

Really? Who will decide? And who will police the CPS from this brownshirt behavior?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
May 8, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
At least there is a kid to fight over...

Well said.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
May 8, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
It was clear the 2nd doc cleared them.


It's still irrelevant. There is no such thing a "clearing" parents, and a physician's attestation expires the seond it is signed. Child protection is an on-going process. The ultimate authority rests with CPS, not the physician.

EDIT:
Good night, it's after midnight and I'm going to bed.
Have fun arguing!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 09:36pm PT
The ultimate authority rests with CPS, not the physician.

And isn't that the problem? What basis did CPS seize that child on? They never stated while seizing him. Still haven't!

You want that world?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 09:51pm PT
They are doing what their taxpayers expect of them. Now folks may choose to throw the children of others under buses in the name of personal freedom and maybe that flies as a majority opinion in Oklahoma or Mississippi, I dunno. But this is California and we expect more from our government. There damn sure ain't no one else lining up to save those kids.

Wha???? You always try to come off as a libertarian-type independent, but this just outs you as a mindless gov't liberal. Nice job throwing Okies and Mississippians under the redneck bus too, bigot! They must all be mindless idiots who could never be more wise than the almighty Dingus.

Yeah, in California we must always do everything better, just because we are arrogant as#@&%es.

How long have you lived here? You come off as an arrogant transplant and not a native of the state.

Meh....

EDIT:
A taxpayer of Sacramento County

In case you think I'm unduly infringing on your precious, righteous county, I'm being invited by the the event coordinator, and you may know him if you are a resident of the county. He ran for Gov and city council seats in your area. Libertarian dude.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 8, 2013 - 10:59pm PT
The irony of it all is that this is just a talk show bullshit topic designed to do one thing - enrich the host of that talk show by inciting ignorant and easily duped people into emotional reactions by stoking their fears of being held accountable.

Nice.

I get the feeling blurring doesn't really belong in CA. Doesn't seem like his kind of people round these parts. They aren't going to change so why not do everyone a favor and find your tribe? Make the Exodus. I'm sure there are plenty of folks out there who feel a few abused/killed kids are an acceptable price to pay in order to ensure our freedom from these atrocious acts of tyranny. I'm thinking Texas.


In case you think I'm unduly infringing on your precious, righteous county, I'm being invited by the the event coordinator, and you may know him if you are a resident of the county. He ran for Gov and city council seats in your area.

There goes his political career.
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
May 8, 2013 - 11:12pm PT
I chimed earlier and I’ll chime in again. Despite what he says and his tone, it is disingenuous to pigeon-hole Bluering as being “anti CPS” and how he is all wrong; that’s not what this is about. We, including Bluey, all agree that abused and neglected children need to get rescued out of their bad situation. But, Bluering is aghast at the lack of due process and the appearance, if not fact, that this child was removed unnecessarily and under nefarious circumstances. Based on the facts presented in all of the news reports, both domestic and international, it jumps out that there was an ego battle between doctors over this child by the different hospitals, and that’s where all of this started.

CPS social workers are underpaid, overworked and have an incredibly stressful job busily checking out abusive homes, arranging visits for kids and their birth parents, court appearances, and all of the paperwork that keeps piling up to document everything . Unfortunately, case workers also want to load up their plate with easy cases and not ones that need sheriff escorts into scary neighborhoods and homes. That’s where corruption or “over interpretation” comes in. It is very easy to inflate a few facts or stories into a full-blown case, and that’s what this one appears to be. Had the Russian Consulate and the media not got involved, all would have been sweet for whoever got this case because it doesn’t seem as if the parents are at all bad people; rather they appear pretty normal and likely cooperative. They are also devoted and protective parents who are not going to sit idle while the government takes over their primary job – parenting.

Rather than bash Bluey for appearing to oppose CPS in general, I applaud him for standing up for due process. It is well documented that the “fine line” mentioned above between constitutional rights and protecting children has been grossly abused by over-ambitious CPS social workers nationwide. Underpaid and understaffed social service agencies are on the budget-cutting edge of deficit reduction – the budgets of these critical programs are being slashed “left” and “right.” But, I stand by the notion that removal of children from their natural family should always be the last and final option, not the opinion of one doctor over another, or the first option to go for. Sort it out later? Yeah, after a year in foster care and a stigmatized family and childhood tainted forever.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2013 - 11:27pm PT
Well, thanks, Jesse.

And I normally totally support both groups, CPS and LEO (cops). But they need to be checked when they cross the line.

That's all we're doing here. And it will be a peaceful, seemingly futile demonstration. But we'll simply let them know that we disapprove of this action.

And we'll support the immigrant family here.

Again, this sh#t should be non-partisan.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
May 8, 2013 - 11:31pm PT
^^^^

+1 TMJesse
John M

climber
May 8, 2013 - 11:56pm PT
But, I stand by the notion that removal of children from their natural family should always be the last and final option,

I disagree. There are too many case where CPS didn't act quickly enough and the child died. Thats why we have judges overseeing these cases. There is a difficult line between protecting children and protecting parents rights.

Jesse, What are you going to say if a child is left in the parents hands after a report of potential abuse and the child ends up dead? I say err on the side of the child's safety. I'm sorry if that means that occasionally a parents rights get trampled. Better that then a dead or molested child.

I wonder if any of you have tried to understand it from the perspective of CPS. You decide and if you make a mistake and a child ends up dead, crippled, or abused, then what will you say? I have made errors in trusting people to do the right thing, and ended up being fully wrong. Thats made me much more cautious. Its easy to armchair these decisions. Its another thing entirely when you realize a child's welfare is at stake.

The problem with the cases where CPS didn't step in and should have is that they often don't get reported. The child lives a life of abuse and we only find out if they die or later when they are an adult and can tell their story. I wonder how many children have slipped through the cracks.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2013 - 12:10am PT
John, that wasn't the case here. And is why I'm protesting this.

They f*#ked up this time, and did damage to a caring, innocent family. That is counter to the mission of CPS. Plain and simple.
John M

climber
May 9, 2013 - 12:17am PT
Go volunteer Blue. Lets see you stand in the fire and make a decision about what to do about a child. Its easy to monday morning quarterback.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
May 9, 2013 - 05:56am PT
and not a word about whos been pushing the underfunding of essential services for how long not?



"Issue Ad" Scam By Right-Wing


The American Federation for Children, a 501(c)(4) nonprofit organization that supports school privatization through "vouchers" and other programs, told Wisconsin's elections board it spent only $345,000 on state legislative races in 2012. Like many nonprofit groups active in the 2012 elections, the actual total spent around the elections was much higher, but it was never disclosed publicly because AFC claimed the spending was about "issues" rather than supporting or opposing a particular candidate.

AFC sang a different tune for funders.

In a document titled "2012 Election Impact Report" obtained by Dan Bice of the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel, AFC boasted that it spent $2.4 million in Wisconsin helping elect nine pro-privatization legislators to office. The disparity between what was reported and actually spent is likely attributable to the "issue advocacy" loophole. And most importantly, voters never knew who actually provided the funding for the ads.

“This episode exposes what a hoax this ‘issue ad’ charade really is,” said Mike McCabe, director of the Wisconsin Democracy Campaign, which filed a complaint with Wisconsin's Government Accountability Board about the undisclosed spending.


http://www.alternet.org/issue-ad-scam-right-wing-education-group-uncovered-wisconsin
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 9, 2013 - 06:10am PT
Nice one, Blue, proclaiming jihad on an agency that works to prevent children from being beaten, burned, neglected, raped.... And comparing them to Nazis?

You should hear the stories I hear, of an aid giving a broken-limbed, cigarette-burned baby its final bath, while crying and realizing this is probably one of the few kind acts that baby ever experienced in its short life.

So, yeah, when people who deal with preventing that kind of thing occasionally error, I might extend them a little leeway instead and just go about righting a wrong where, happily, no child actually died.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
May 9, 2013 - 06:11am PT
Why Cops Bust Down Doors of Medical Pot Growers, But Ignore Men Who Keep Naked Girls on Leashes


Perhaps the strongest example of how drug war policing can distract resources from more pressing problems is the use of department laboratories. In Ohio, police agencies across the state have sent more than 2,300 untested rape kits to a state crime lab for testing. Some of them are decades old, and could contain vital clues regarding suspects in rapes. But they've been backed up in police departments across the country.

“What they don’t talk about is why do they have that backlog in the first place?” said Downing. “The answer is that drugs take a priority because they often involve people in custody, and they’re going to be in court, so when they show up in court, they’re going to have those tests. Thousands and thousands of tests run through our police labs for drugs when most of the time it's a personal use decision. Most of the time it's a recreational use of drugs rather than an abuse of drugs. But our criminal justice system is completely involved in dealing with drug crime rather than dealing with crime that truly affects public safety, like property and crimes against persons."


http://www.alternet.org/drugs/why-cops-bust-down-doors-medical-pot-growers-ignore-men-who-keep-naked-girls-leashes?page=0%2C1
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 9, 2013 - 06:51am PT
why are you guy's trying to spoil blurrings weekend?
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 9, 2013 - 06:54am PT
I do think that there may be a little too much Kafka in the way CPS operates.
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
May 9, 2013 - 08:04am PT
There is a difficult line between protecting children and protecting parents rights.

I wonder how many children have slipped through the cracks.

I don't disagree. My central issue here is corruption. Foster care is big business and a cash cow for state and local governments, social service organizations, private consultants, etc. I see big advertisement banners hanging on big buildings that say "foster parents needed - call 123-4567." These support services and private consultants want business so they can survive. Under the guise of "protecting children," corruption in the system is rampant. It is akin to human trafficking. Read just one of hundreds of articles on it:

The Corrupt Business of Child Protective Services, By Nancy Schaefer, Georgia State Senate, 50th District:

http://protectingourchildrenfrombeingsold.wordpress.com/about/the-corrupt-business-of-child-protection-services/
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 9, 2013 - 08:20am PT
Bluring wrote:
Who's the ingenius, he who judges after reading all of the facts of the story, or he who just makes judgements off one line of the story?

Ask yourself that...genius.

O! the irony!
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
May 9, 2013 - 08:35am PT
Hmm, should I listen to the cynical guy with a doctorate (or close enough)in a hard science...or a reactionary Teabagging moron who claims Mexico is in South America and when gently corrected doubles down INSISTING that anything south of the US border is "South America"?

Well, that Wes guy sure is a meanie, so I guess I'll go with the alcoholic ignorant hillbilly and his impotent raging against a wide array of imaginary boogiemen.

CPS!! Fast and Furious! Benghazi Benghazi Behghazi! Alien Anal Probes!!! Black Helicopters, New World Order, Vince Foster in the library with the candlestick, oh my!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 9, 2013 - 08:36am PT
Take ANYONE out of a hospital WITHOUT properly checking out and you SHOULD have cops on your ass. If it is a child with a heart condition, yeah, you could very well be endangering that child's life. Endangering a child's life = CPS gets involved, that's the law! Blurring is an idiot.

Full disclosure, I'm only (nearly) a Dr of Rocks and Water.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
May 9, 2013 - 08:45am PT
Dr. Rock, you say?

Don't mind if I do:

John M

climber
May 9, 2013 - 08:58am PT
Hey Jesse, I read that link. I'm familiar with the problems of CPS. Your link says that CPS is broken beyond repair.

So what is your solution? It is an under funded system that is fairly easy to corrupt. Oh.. and those adds are because it really is tough to find foster parents. Few people want to do it. Are you going to volunteer to do it? Will you want to get financial help if you take a child in? Whats your solution to when a child really is in danger and needs to be pulled from a home?

Please go volunteer and find out just how hard it is to make these decisions. There is currently a petition to hold CPS staff criminally responsible for any mistakes they make. I wonder how many will quit if that happens.

Here is a link that says the highest paid case workers make 25 to 30 thousand a year. After 10 years you can make 40 thousand. Thats in the large cities.

http://www.ehow.com/facts_7254932_average-child-protective-services-employee.html

https://www.azdes.gov/landing.aspx?id=10232

My brother is an air traffic controller. He topped out in pay at 154,000 dollars a years. So everyone is safe to fly, but are our children safe?
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
May 9, 2013 - 09:01am PT
Endangering a child's life = CPS gets involved

Yep, that is sure true. Kids taken away by CPS are definitely in danger, alright.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 9, 2013 - 09:03am PT
Jesse, it is the law, and for good reason. Pull your head out.
John M

climber
May 9, 2013 - 09:03am PT
So what is your solution Jesse? Leave them in the home?
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
May 9, 2013 - 09:17am PT


If you read this entire thread, approaching 150 posts, it is wildly apparent that one side is ready to accept hyperbole and aggrandizing as the basis for fact... that an error on the side of CPS is part one of a play wherein our guns are taken... well, I am at a loss for words, but I feel the above video states clearly my opinion of the author... sorry Blue, but you are round the bend comrade, you are supporting vapid opportunists who seek any example of government fallibility as a basis for advancing the fear parade... here is some hyperbole of my own: to correct the errors of Rush Limbaugh should we take away his prostitutes and cupcake frosting?
John M

climber
May 9, 2013 - 09:20am PT
Credit: John M

I had to help take 3 kids out of a home where the mess was worse then this. Much much worse. The filth was appalling. The mom was mentally ill.

What do we do with those kids? The foster parent situation is borderline psychotic at times. So who is going to take them?

Let me know when you have a solution. I'm all ears.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 9, 2013 - 09:22am PT
Nice, Socialclimber. You summed up the mentality of weak-minded fools who see one problem and, rather than rolling up their sleeves and fixing things, they pull a Chicken Little and play pawn to cynical fear mongers.
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
May 9, 2013 - 09:23am PT
JM, you're missing my point. Corruption. When they inflate allegations and make false allegation, and minimize or ignore parental positives. Our family are survivors of inflated and false allegations, and minimized positives. Corruption, pure and simple. And, maybe even unintentional. Like Stalin's Organ.

I don't have any quick solutions to the corruption. The legitimate cases are just that: legitimate and critical. As for their pay, it is an abomination. I plan to volunteer when time allows.

I think we agree on nearly everything, except possibly how the government machine of this system is broken.
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
May 9, 2013 - 09:26am PT
This can be found at T-shirt hell, maybe the new uniform for Blue's post CPS authority...
Credit: socialclimber

Charles
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 9, 2013 - 09:32am PT
This situation is not a case of corruption.

This situation is a case of parents taking a child with a heart condition out of a hospital where it was admitted, without checking out. That potentially endangers the child. Health care professionals are required BY LAW to inform CPS if they believe a child is being endangered.

Pretty fuking simple.

You want to end corruption in CPS... great. But THIS is not a case of corruption. This is a case of potential child endangerment in which CPS and the health care professionals acted appropriately.

Pretty fuking simple.


Holy sh#t... fuking morans!!!

http://beforeitsnews.com/opinion-conservative/2013/05/call-to-action-for-california-readers-join-the-patdollard-com-sacramento-police-headquarters-protest-4th-amendment-violated-baby-taken-next-guns-2631714.html
John M

climber
May 9, 2013 - 09:38am PT
I think we agree on nearly everything, except possibly how the government machine of this system is broken.

No.. I know it has lots of problems. I was just asking you to try and see it from the other side. I have a real problem with people like Blue who scream about how terrible the situation is and their solution is to defund it. So I am trying to counter balance his voice.

There are tons of cases where it seems obvious that the child should be taken out of the home, yet there are not enough good solutions. You pointed out a case with 18 kids in a foster home. Who knows if that was really bad. I know a family that raised 12 kids of their own and adopted 3 more. They are the most wonderful people you could imagine.

So what do you do with a child when you know it has to come out of a home but there aren't enough foster homes available?

Then there are the cases where its not so obvious, but we have people who make 30,000 dollars a year trying to make a wise decision. I know for a fact that there are very good CPS workers. I also know that they despair because of how overloaded the system is and how many lower quality workers end up taking the job because there are not enough high quality people who want to work long hours for low pay. Along with having to take the scorn of people like Blue.

I know that money isn't the only solution and can even cause problems, but if you want the best military, the best air traffic control, the best fire department, the best school system, then you have to spend money to attract the best people.

Right now we don't spend enough money on social services, so it attracts the lazy and incompetent who don't have the internal resources to make wise decisions. It also attracts the giving who really do want to help, and are willing to work for less pay and less prestige in order to try and help kids, but they are outnumbered and often overwhelmed by the incompetent.
John M

climber
May 9, 2013 - 09:42am PT
I applaud Blue for actually going and doing something. Even if I believe he is misguided. Some attention might lead to more people caring about this problem. Of course that same attention could close the whole shebang, then what will we do about endangered kids.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 9, 2013 - 09:43am PT
Ironic that the same people who want to defund things like CPS are the same ones who adamantly oppose proper sex education and birth control programs aimed at preventing unwanted pregnancies, which certainly contributes to the need for CPS.

Yes, like a good mindless fool, blurring jumped on the outrage bandwagon to join like minded imbeciles protesting the proper implementation of existing laws designed to protect children. Why? Because Pat Dollard said so... and they may come after your guns next...

Applause all around!

http://beforeitsnews.com/opinion-conservative/2013/05/call-to-action-for-california-readers-join-the-patdollard-com-sacramento-police-headquarters-protest-4th-amendment-violated-baby-taken-next-guns-2631714.html
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 9, 2013 - 09:57am PT
Hahaha... nice find of the idiots' incident commander, Wes.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2013 - 07:31pm PT
Take ANYONE out of a hospital WITHOUT properly checking out and you SHOULD have cops on your ass. If it is a child with a heart condition, yeah, you could very well be endangering that child's life. Endangering a child's life = CPS gets involved, that's the law! Blurring is an idiot.

Again, you geniuses failed to gather the facts of the story, but passed judgement anyway, just because you are mean and hateful people who only exist to tear me down.

Did you read all the FACTs? Or just what you wanted to read? Who is the idiot?

A second doctor, the cops, and CPS cleared them before another group pounced on them.

Apologies will be accepted if you're man enough, weschrist.
John M

climber
May 9, 2013 - 07:33pm PT
Go get em Blue. Let me know when you volunteer as a child advocate.. Or a foster parent


Edit: you never apologize for your behavior. In fact, you boast about being a dick.

Time to get on the sharp end of the stick Blue. Go volunteer as a child advocate. Show those CPS people how to do their job.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 9, 2013 - 07:38pm PT
he couldn't pass the piss test
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2013 - 07:41pm PT
I applaud Blue for actually going and doing something. Even if I believe he is misguided. Some attention might lead to more people caring about this problem. Of course that same attention could close the whole shebang, then what will we do about endangered kids.

Despite being a "hateful right-winger", I do indeed care about kids. I have one, and there was one abused by the people taxed to "care for them" here.

They did the opposite! The damaged a family and it's relationship to their son.

They f*#ked up!

They abused their authority. They did the opposite of their charter duties.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
May 9, 2013 - 07:41pm PT
"....it is wildly apparent that one side is ready to accept hyperbole and aggrandizing as the basis for fact... that an error on the side of CPS is part one of a play wherein our guns are taken... well, I am at a loss for words, but I feel the above video states clearly my opinion of the author... sorry Blue, but you are round the bend comrade, you are supporting vapid opportunists who seek any example of government fallibility as a basis for advancing the fear parade... here is some hyperbole of my own: to correct the errors of Rush Limbaugh should we take away his prostitutes and cupcake frosting?"


+ a bunch
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
Go get em Blue. Let me know when you volunteer as a child advocate.. Or a foster parent


Edit: you never apologize for your behavior. In fact, you boast about being a dick.

Time to get on the sharp end of the stick Blue. Go volunteer as a child advocate. Show those CPS people how to do their job.


I will work in different ways to protect children. Don't tell me what I have to do to justify myself to YOU. I will do things my way to help kids.

EDIT:
here is some hyperbole of my own: to correct the errors of Rush Limbaugh should we take away his prostitutes and cupcake frosting?

I fail to see the relevance.
John M

climber
May 9, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
So get off the pot and actually go and protect a child. Volunteer as a child advocate.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
May 9, 2013 - 07:44pm PT
"I will work in different ways to protect children. "

How does drinking yourself stooopid achieve this?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2013 - 07:46pm PT
"I will work in different ways to protect children. "

How does drinking yourself stooopid achieve this?


And you know this, how? Do I know you? Have you ever climbed with me or camped with my family?

WTF?
John M

climber
May 9, 2013 - 07:47pm PT
Let me know when you actually get on the sharp end of the stick and have to make tough decisions about a childs welfare.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 9, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
Did you read all the FACTs? Or just what you wanted to read? Who is the idiot?

Ever think to ask yourself the same question? It's a tough question for any of us.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2013 - 07:53pm PT
Ever think to ask yourself the same question? It's a tough question for any of us.


Why is it that you people can never answer a difficult question, and only bounce back the same question? Answer the question! You guys never want to answer, and then usually change the f*#king arguement.

A discussion is give/take. I refuse to bow to your bullsh#t.

Turning the question around is not an answer, an answer is.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
May 9, 2013 - 08:16pm PT
'Sacramento'
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 9, 2013 - 09:18pm PT
Ever think to ask yourself the same question? It's a tough question for any of us.


Why is it that you people can never answer a difficult question, and only bounce back the same question? Answer the question! You guys never want to answer, and then usually change the f*#king arguement.

A discussion is give/take. I refuse to bow to your bullsh#t.

Turning the question around is not an answer, an answer is.

O! the irony! WTF are you talking about? What question did I not answer?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 9, 2013 - 11:00pm PT
Did you read all the FACTs? Or just what you wanted to read? Who is the idiot?

I read that they may come after my guns next. What happens then... will I be forced to quarter soldiers against my consent?

A second doctor, the cops, and CPS cleared them before another group pounced on them.

You fuking moran! Get your timeline straight. The report was made to CPS when they took the baby out of the hospital. Once the report is made it is required BY LAW that the matter be fully investigated and the child's safety ensure until the investigation is completed... regardless of what another Dr. says.

Apologies will be accepted if you're man enough, weschrist.

Go fuk yourself you ignorant piece of sh#t. You are a disgrace to mankind.
jstan

climber
May 9, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
I can't stand people who are afraid to say what they really think.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
May 10, 2013 - 02:49am PT
is this really the right place to trash the insitution of marriage as well?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 10, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
You fuking moran! Get your timeline straight. The report was made to CPS when they took the baby out of the hospital. Once the report is made it is required BY LAW that the matter be fully investigated and the child's safety ensure until the investigation is completed... regardless of what another Dr. says.

Wow. Regardless of what a doc says? CPS is the authority on child health, not the doctor?

Review your position. And this comes from a communist who has no kids and will never understand them...or the 4th Amendment apparently!
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
May 10, 2013 - 06:26pm PT
I thought I'd clicked on a thread about child protection, but somehow I think it put me in the "Friday night posting while drunk thread."
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 10, 2013 - 06:36pm PT
"Friday night posting while drunk thread."

It's a nightly event
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
May 10, 2013 - 07:23pm PT
jstan has it right.

The worst thing that ever happened to common civil governance is the vertical orientation of hatchet wielding ideologues.

It doesn't matter or have any relevance who you vote for when welcomed to the social hopper of civil/social resolve. It's about handling the endless trouble the human condition represents. That's your tax money at work whether you like it or not.

When it comes to the civil welfare of children, the child's needs are first and the only thing that counts. (Ask any lawyer or insurance agent)

It's always been historically easier to knock up Sweety, with a Honey Boo Boo result, in comparison to getting a driver's license at the DMV.



kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
May 10, 2013 - 07:25pm PT
A little diversion, that is more entertaining than this thread....

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 10, 2013 - 07:32pm PT
you people


I always liked that line

it really is a clean way of grouping people together that one does not agree with


another one is calling me a Communists when you don't agree with me

especially when I spent two years in a fuking jungle serving America

wish you were there with me, ass hole
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
May 10, 2013 - 07:34pm PT
kunlun that is a bizarre video and +1 for Norton.

Charles
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 10, 2013 - 07:36pm PT
fuk it, I want to post it again

you people


I always liked that line, BLUERING

it really is a clean way of grouping people together that one does not agree with


another one is calling me a Communist because I don't agree with you

especially when I spent two years in a fuking jungle serving America

wish you were there with me, ass hole

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 10, 2013 - 07:36pm PT
Blue, your ignorance as to process is amazing.

CPS is that entity required by law to assure the safety of Children. They don't have a choice about getting involved, once a report is made.

you are talking about a child with a known heart defect, awaiting surgery, who becomes ill with symptoms that MAY represent severe decompensation of the heart, requiring emergency surgery to save the child's life.

While the child is being evaluated to see if that is actually what is going on, the parents take the child from the hospital without any discussion with the physicians. That should ALWAYS trigger a CPS referral, and inasmuch as CPS is not a law enforcement agency, the police to locate this child.

They go to another ER, where they are able to complete a determination that the child is actually not having a life-threatening problem. Cops arrive, see the situation, that the child is not in danger, and leave.

HOWEVER, it does not change the original scenario of parents removing what may be a life-threateningly ill child from care. This still mandates an investigation as to whether the child is being treated safely. Is there another child in the home, and how are they being treated? Are these parents whacked out druggies, who left the first hospital because it was actually time for their fixes. Are these parents repeatedly neglecting the child's care?

Are they actually the parents? This sort of scenario is the type that occasionally happens with kidnapped children!

Trust me when I say that those things actually happen. And they need answers.

Doesn't a child deserve to have every scenario examined when something is fishy?


The standard is to separate the child from the parents, and the parents from each other, and have the social workers from CPS interview and evaluate all. We all know what happens when anyone gets physical with the police....thus the father.

None of your sources talk about how this ended, but I'm sure that's because it doesn't make good copy to state that after interviewing everyone, the children and parents were released. It would sure have been in the report if the child had been taken away for some length of time.....it just IMPLIES that it happened this way.

The FIRST priority is the safety of children, with these agencies. You walk away, and something happens to the child.....unreal. There were several instances of this happening this last year in LA. They didn't remove the child, and the child died.

You appear to have been bagged by an aggressive money-grubbing lawyer, who is expertly drumming up media hype.

The child was NOT injured. There is now NO uncertainty in the case.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 10, 2013 - 07:55pm PT
The child was NOT injured.

It's an oversimplification to say that the process works simply because the child was not injured.

I do think that there may be room for improvement when it comes to CPS's actual execution.

Now that I saw the video, one obvious problem is that they sent the cops to the house, they took the kid and don't even tell the parents what is going on or who they can talk to to help move the process along.

It's like something out of Kafka.

Lot's of folks here saying CPS is underfunded. Then let's fund it.

But I'm still not going to some teabagger rant fest.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
May 10, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
part of the underfunding is the f*#ks choking off funding
INSISTING that whats left of that system start using scumbag regular cops for routine stuff,

you know, just like underfunding public schools has shown the teachers the door in exchange for cops as hall monitors?

just to be sure people in that system get threated like criminals from the get go...

thats the precisely targetted outcome of the 'reforms' people like our thread starter cheer at the top of their lungs!

Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
May 10, 2013 - 08:43pm PT
So many Friday night Social Workers with out a single accredited individual posting...

I've dated them and the conversational pleasantries of their work causes a problem trying to have a drink with your teeth curled.

Social workers are humans. A small % get it wrong, The others earn their meager pay because they actually and truly give a f*#k about the results of their work.

Social working as a profession, seems to age idealistic people much faster than their hope for human peace can defend.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 10, 2013 - 10:10pm PT
It's an oversimplification to say that the process works simply because the child was not injured.

I do think that there may be room for improvement when it comes to CPS's actual execution.

Now that I saw the video, one obvious problem is that they sent the cops to the house, they took the kid and don't even tell the parents what is going on or who they can talk to to help move the process along.

It's like something out of Kafka.

Lot's of folks here saying CPS is underfunded. Then let's fund it.

But I'm still not going to some teabagger rant fest.

CPS is not a police agency. They are not sworn officers, and they cannot take people into custody. That requires the police.

You seem to have an odd idea of how you secure an uncertain situation. You don't tell people what is going on, you want to keep them off balance, so that they will not be guarded in answering questions. You separate them, then compare the stories that they are giving. The best way to move the process along, is to cooperate.

It's easy to cop an attitude, when the participants are relatively innocent. The problem is, going in, you don't know that. You don't know if you are dealing with abducted children, child abusers, human traffickers, what.

So you take control of the situation. You take control of the children SO THEY CAN'T BE HOSTAGES. You have to think that way......to avoid REAL sad outcomes.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 10, 2013 - 10:18pm PT
I've dated them and the conversational pleasantries of their work causes a problem trying to have a drink with your teeth curled.

Social workers are humans. A small % get it wrong, The others earn their meager pay because they actually and truly give a f*#k about the results of their work.

Social working as a profession, seems to age idealistic people much faster than their hope for human peace can defend.

I've also been involved with a CPS social worker, and it is hard to listen!

Generally, the best people I've ever encountered. Their jobs are unimaginable.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 11, 2013 - 08:01am PT
Blue, your ignorance as to process is amazing.


+1.0E+10 for everyone but the moran.

Glad to see blurring is still among the small minority of truly idiotic sheeple who can be duped into thinking that legal actions by CPS designed to protect children is just a precursor to taking away guns and the eventual Socialist uprising of the Obama Party.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
May 11, 2013 - 08:23am PT
Here's an update.

The infant's case went to court.

The judge believed that CPS acted in the best interest of the infant when CPS seized custody of him.

The judge also ruled that the parents must follow all medical advice from now on, and must not leave a hospital with their child without being properly discharged.

The judge ruled that a CPS social worker will make regular house visits to check on the infant when he is returned home.

Methinks there is much more to the story than we read in the news.

kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 11, 2013 - 08:25am PT
do you guy's think blurring is going to change his position?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 11, 2013 - 08:33am PT
No. Blurring will forever remain on his hands and knees "supporting" the irrational "reformers"... from both ends.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
May 11, 2013 - 09:14am PT
If CPS had done absolutely nothing in this case, what would have been the harm?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
May 11, 2013 - 09:25am PT
So Bluey - how'd the big tea party go down at the cop shop?
John M

climber
May 11, 2013 - 09:31am PT
Maybe nothing Chaz. But how would you know until someone investigated? Doing nothing leaves a lot of children in bad places. Very bad places. The problem is that its difficult to come up with a good solution, because it all depends on humans, who are fallible. Doing nothing when a doctor says there might be abuse is foolish. And it doesn't work very well to have people who make 30 grand a year make decisions when there are conflicting reports from professionals like doctors, which is why we added the safe guard of a judge to the system. But then even they are fallible. Which is why we now have child advocates, and maybe we even need parent advocates. But do you know just how many parents are terrible, yet think that they are great? Just like drunks who say.. I can drive. There are tons of parents who shouldn't be allowed to drive a child. But then you have the problem of what to do with the children whose parents are terrible parents. Which is why we have the foster care program. But then there are tons of pitfalls with that.

Humans are fallible and we all need to do the best that we can to make things better.
ec

climber
ca
May 11, 2013 - 10:57am PT
Where's Sacrameto?
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
May 11, 2013 - 12:43pm PT

The judge ruled that a CPS social worker will make regular house visits to check on the infant when he is returned home.

Sounds as if the couple agreed to either a "service plan" or an "in-home dependency." Either way, here's a sample of the sorts of things they likely agreed to so they can get their baby back:

1. CPS can come over and enter their home anytime without notice and perform an inspection. CPS may also contract these inspections to other providers who will come over and look around and ask questions ($80/hr).

2. All medical records must be furnished to CPS.

3. Both parents will attend a series of performance-based parenting classes and group sessions with other parents, most of which have their children in foster homes. These classes take 12 weeks to 18 months to complete.

4. If parents undergo any counseling, the records must be furnished to CPS.

5. Parents must agree to substance abuse screening. Regardless of outcome, no alcohol may be in the home.

6. Parents must undergo a psychological evaluation by CPS-controlled psychologists, and the records are property of CPS for their use.

7. No overnight travel is permitted without prior approval from CPS; if staying with friends, the hosts must undergo CPS background investigations beforehand.

8. Overnight guests or family must undergo CPS background investigations prior to staying overnight.

9. The parents agree to not discuss or disclose any matter regarding their case with anyone, including the media, without court approval.

It's in the best interest of these parents to agree to absolutely everything, no matter how intrusive or Orwellian they are. Because, if they are, or even appear uncooperative in any way, the child will be removed from them immediately. After 6-months to 2-years or more of oversight by CPS, the "case" can be dropped by the judge.

In close to all cases, such an arrangement is likely good and proper. But it is overdoing it in many cases. It costs the government and the parents a lot of money. Plus, all the time it takes away from the parents from being parents.

This particular story merits looking at to see what could have been done better and following it to see what it takes for this family to be left alone to heal.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 11, 2013 - 02:22pm PT
Some here seem to be claiming that the process works simply because CPS workers tend to be nice people.

It is altogether possible to have a broken process implemented by mostly nice people.

squishy

Mountain climber
May 11, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
The cps is underfunded because it is one of the 1st things that get the chop when the republicans go on a spending cut temper tantrum. I personally believe the 1st thing to get cut should be fire departments in rich republican neighborhoods, but who am I to say that starving and uncared for children need the funds more...maybe less tax cuts for big business will help fund that which requires F'ing funding..
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 11, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
god

sometimes I believe that that people who constantly seek out and embrace any reason at all to criticize people who work for any level of "government", assume the worst of them, bash them for being represented by a union, etc etc...

probably are still pissed off now many years later because they had to wait a little too long in line at the DMV for their first drivers license at age 15

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 11, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
This particular story merits looking at to see what could have been done better...

NO it doesn't. We already know what could have been done better... don't take a child with a heart condition out of a hospital without fuking checking out.
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
May 11, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
You sound angry.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
May 11, 2013 - 07:04pm PT
Is this the first in what you see as the beginning of the surge for CPS to take American's babies from them?


How did your rally turn out?

Were you stimulated by the discourse of your fellow rallyers?

This is a non-issue.

I'll wait until I hear about 10…. 50….. 100 kids being taken from their parents before I stand up and take notice.

Juts consider yourself lucky that you were not born outside the US and had only moved to the US with the hopes of raising your family…. like all the other Americans…. and all the other people in the world.

you need help
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2013 - 02:22am PT
So Bluey - how'd the big tea party go down at the cop shop?


A video is pending...

And weschrist? The baby had pending heart-surgery already, it was in the hospital for suspected pneumonia.

And again, the second doc cleared them all as healthy before CPS attacked the family.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2013 - 02:27am PT
I'll wait until I hear about 10…. 50….. 100 kids being taken from their parents before I stand up and take notice.

Juts consider yourself lucky that you were not born outside the US and had only moved to the US with the hopes of raising your family…. like all the other Americans…. and all the other people in the world.

Alright, so 10 or 50 is your threshold for seized babies? At least you have a bar for measurement. I applaud that, you're on record.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2013 - 02:31am PT
NO it doesn't. We already know what could have been done better... don't take a child with a heart condition out of a hospital without fuking checking out.


How does seizing the baby from it's loving parents make this better? The parents had scheduled heart surgery already. The 2nd doc said the baby was clear to go. WTF?
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 12, 2013 - 06:44am PT
BFD, it sounds like it is all but resolved legally. Now that it's basically over, I wonder if those parents will regret enlisting the help of nutballs pushing their paranoid agenda? Probably.

edit: Man, reading the source material for this outrage leaves mostly questions. Very one-sided. But I guess if you're mining moral outrage and knee jerk responses, you will take whatever you can get.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 12, 2013 - 08:10am PT
And again, the second doc cleared them all as healthy before CPS attacked the family.

AFTER the report was made to CPS. AFTER CPS was required, by law, to ensure the child's safety during a full investigation.

How does seizing the baby from it's loving parents make this better?

Nobody ever said it did. You honestly must be the dumbest motherfuker alive.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2013 - 08:12am PT
edit: Man, reading the source material for this outrage leaves mostly questions. Very one-sided. But I guess if you're mining moral outrage and knee jerk responses, you will take whatever you can get.

Yeah, I guess it's akin to "mining moral outrage" about 4 dead Americans in Benghazi. Let it go, huh? Nothing to see here.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2013 - 08:20am PT
AFTER the report was made to CPS. AFTER CPS was required, by law, to ensure the child's safety during a full investigation.

What were they being investigated for? Leaving the hospital w/o checking out properly.

The second doc cleared them.

Next day CPS goes in for the attack again, for no reason! No legit reason anyway.

Kid is at Stanford and is pending surgery in 4-6 weeks. That was the original plan. CPS just waded in and made their health worse.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 12, 2013 - 08:45am PT
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Nobody's 4th amendment rights were violated. The courts agree. If you don't like our political system feel free to fuk off to some other country that embraces your irrational right wing bullsh#t.

The second doc cleared them.

AFTER THE FACT YOU GAWDAMN FUKING MORAN!



Kid is at Stanford and is pending surgery in 4-6 weeks. That was the original plan.

Why back to the original plan. I thought the 2nd Dr said the kid was fine.

Funny that a little personal responsibility from the parents (checking out properly) could have avoided this whole mess... but CPS is to blame for everything. What's that about PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and ACCOUNTABILITY again?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
May 12, 2013 - 08:48am PT
It's been determined that siezing the kid was unnecessary. Unnecessary = unreasonable.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 12, 2013 - 08:50am PT
It was determined that CPS did nothing wrong.

You need a new Thesaurus. Unnecessary does not equal unreasonable.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
May 12, 2013 - 08:53am PT
They didn't need to take the kid. That was doing something wrong.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2013 - 09:10am PT
It was determined that CPS did nothing wrong.

You need a new Thesaurus. Unnecessary does not equal unreasonable.


The courts haven't ruled yet on whether their 4Th Amendment rights were violated. Case is pending. They are rightfully lawyered-up.

EDIT:
Why back to the original plan. I thought the 2nd Dr said the kid was fine.

Do you idiots read the story? The surgery was in the works, the kid went in for suspected pneumonia.

The parents were planning on the surgery but it wasn't deemed to be critical.
John M

climber
May 12, 2013 - 09:39am PT
Blue, do you know how often doctors contradict each other? Do you know that sometimes a doctor will say nothing is wrong, when in fact something is wrong. Do you have any idea how often that happens? And can you see the position this puts CPS in? What happens if the doctor that says something is wrong is the one that is actually right? And then add in crazy diseases like Manchausen by proxy and most people could start to see the difficult position CPS is in. Thats why they added a judge to the system. And I'm not saying that the system is perfect. No system is because humans are involved. But hopefully we try to do the best that we can.

But oh well, you have your cause. Let me know when you get on the sharp end of making critical care decisions for a child not your own. Then let me know when you make a mistake. We will then get to see you learn just how hard it is and we will see which side of the equation you come down on. Will you be more lenient in leaning towards trusting the parents, or will you be more cautious. Everyone I know who has had to do this kind of thing becomes more cautious. Including me. But who knows... maybe you will be the exception.

Carry on.
Ricky

climber
Sometimes LA
May 12, 2013 - 09:44am PT

But the second doc cleared them.
John M

climber
May 12, 2013 - 09:45am PT
well sure.. LOL. that makes it all clear now. Just choose which doc you want to trust.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2013 - 09:58am PT
well sure.. LOL. that makes it all clear now. Just choose which doc you want to trust.


You guys are splitting really fine hairs here and are failing to see the major point.

A mother was uncomfortable with one doc, went to another to be comforted. The next day her baby was seized FOR NO REASON!

The cops, CPS, and the 2nd doc agreed to let her go home and everything was kosher. Next day, seize the baby.

F*#ked up.
John M

climber
May 12, 2013 - 10:10am PT
The next day her baby was seized FOR NO REASON!

umm.. no. I'm sorry that you can't seem to understand that there was a reason. I'm also sorry that you can't seem to understand that there are fine points and that just because a point may be thin, or tricky, doesn't make it illegitimate.

Please let me know when you have to make decisions about a childs welfare when it isn't your child.

5.12 climbing versus 5.9 climbing. The holds get finer and harder to recognize.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2013 - 10:12am PT
umm.. no. I'm sorry that you can't seem to understand that there was a reason. I'm also sorry that you can't seem to understand that there are fine points and that just because a point may be thin, or tricky, doesn't make it illegitimate.

Please let me know when you have to make decisions about a childs welfare when it isn't your child.


Why did they seize the child? Under what reasons?
John M

climber
May 12, 2013 - 10:17am PT
They seized the child because a doctor warned them. Try rereading my earlier post about how doctors can have opposite opinions. The judge wants the child to be seen at Stanford, so that would make it appear that he/she agrees that there is something wrong with the child.

You simply don't have all the facts, so you can't know what was going on in the first doctors mind that made him/her decide to call CPS. Nor does the second doctor know. So its entirely possible the second doctor was wrong. Thats why CPS has to get involved and why a judge then makes the determination of what is to happen next.

Could the second doctor be correct? yes.. but CPS can't go off of that once the first doctor makes the call. The courts have to be involved. The court heard enough from the first doctor to order the child to be seen at Stanford.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2013 - 10:21am PT
John, shouldn't CPS err on the side of caution and the family? The only reason for the initial complaint was improper procedure in checking out. That was cleared up at the 2nd doc. Everybody agreed.

Why did CPS go after her again? The next day. They never stated why.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
May 12, 2013 - 10:26am PT
The courts have to be involved?

A parent can't decide for themselves which doctor to see? Why not?
John M

climber
May 12, 2013 - 10:33am PT
John, shouldn't CPS err on the side of caution and the family?

No.. CPS should err on the side of the safety of the child. They learned the hard way that parents can be good at fooling doctors and them. There are tons of stories where CPS thought everything was okay with the parents and it wasn't. The problem is that its hard to strike the right balance. Its a brutally difficult task that CPS has. I don't believe that you appreciate just how hard it is. Thats why I would like you to volunteer as a child advocate. Once you have some experience, then I believe it will be easier for you to understand my position.
John M

climber
May 12, 2013 - 10:36am PT
Chaz, the courts get involved when a doctor makes a report to CPS. Until then, yes, the parents can make whatever decision about doctors that they want. Once a report is made, then there is a procedure which involves the courts. Its for the protection of everyones rights. Its not perfect, but then nothing is.

The case at Penn state is a prime example of why we made certain reporting procedures the law. Once the law is involved, then the courts have to be involved.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2013 - 10:52am PT
No.. CPS should err on the side of the safety of the child. They learned the hard way that parents can be good at fooling doctors and them. There are tons of stories where CPS thought everything was okay with the parents and it wasn't. The problem is that its hard to strike the right balance. Its a brutally difficult task that CPS has. I don't believe that you appreciate just how hard it is. Thats why I would like you to volunteer as a child advocate. Once you have some experience, then I believe it will be easier for you to understand my position.


So you're assuming that CPS knows better than parents and a physician?

Your knee-jerk advocacy of CPS is apparent. Sometimes they do wrong.
John M

climber
May 12, 2013 - 10:53am PT
Which is worse?

The parents are scared and upset because the child is mistakenly taken by CPS.


The child is abused because CPS mistakenly leaves the child with CPS.


And yes its true, the child can suffer trauma in the first case also.
.
So which is worse? Most peoples answer depends on how much child abuse they have seen. The more child abuse you see, the more likely you are to err on the side of trying to keep the child safe and worry less about the parents needs.
John M

climber
May 12, 2013 - 10:56am PT
So you're assuming that CPS knows better than parents and a physician?

Once again you fail to acknowledge the first physician. You also fail to acknowledge that to a point the courts agree with the first doctors opinion. Thats why the child is being taken to Stanford.

The courts gave back control to the parents, with some stipulations. One of which was to require th child to go to Stanford.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
May 12, 2013 - 10:59am PT
"You also fail to acknowledge that to a point the courts agree with the first doctors opinion."


Shouldn't it be up to the parents to decide which doctor to trust?
John M

climber
May 12, 2013 - 11:13am PT
Shouldn't it be up to the parents to decide which doctor to trust?

Yes..... right up to the point someone with the ability to recognize abuse states that there might be abuse, such as the first doctor. Then the courts get involved.

Ricky

climber
Sometimes LA
May 12, 2013 - 11:15am PT

Or if they're Christian Scientists.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2013 - 11:18am PT
Yes..... right up to the point someone with the ability to recognize abuse states that there might be abuse, such as the first doctor. Then the courts get involved.


THERE WERE NO SIGNS OF ABUSE OR NEGLECT!

Why did CPS barge into their house after they agreed the doc cleared them?

Answer that!
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
May 12, 2013 - 11:50am PT
^^^ A judge thought that there was enough evidence of parental neglect that he ordered them to obey the doctor's advice.

A parent can't decide for themselves which doctor to see? Why not?


Because you don't need a license to breed.

"The meek shall inherit the earth." In order words, the retarded will breed like wabbits and have retarded children and they will take over the planet.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
May 12, 2013 - 01:27pm PT
Bluey has a good point on this whole issue. CPS is knd of a screwed up mess, they throw their weight around when its not neccessary allot and f*#k with people who they have no business messing with. A great example of an agency that perhaps has spiraled out of control with no oversight or accountability.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 12, 2013 - 01:51pm PT
Studly, you sound like an idiot who has no experience with children, much less abused children.

A parent can't decide for themselves which doctor to see? Why not?

That was never the issue, Chaz, as your trolling pea-brain knows.

The child was scheduled for heart surgery in 3-4 months. He was admitted with POSSIBLE pneumonia.....but guess what, boys and girls, the symptoms of pneumonia are about the SAME as severe decompensated heart failure. They can be difficult to distinguish.

If it is the latter, the treatment is EMERGENCY heart surgery, without which, the child dies. This is not trivial stuff....and happens ALL THE TIME.

While awaiting the tests to be done, the parents WALK OUT with the child.

Is the child about to die without emergency surgery? WHO KNOWS?

So the child is removed from SPECIALISTS, who are expert in evaluating this, and taken to an ER doctor....and having been one, I'll tell you authoritatively, LESS expert at such evaluations. But they can get the technology involved, and answer the question, and did.

But it doesn't change the issue of the parents removing a potentially life-threateningly sick child from medical care. They could have ASKED, and they'd have gotten another opinion. From an expert.

Taking a very ill person out of a hospital to get a second opinion from an ER doctor is among the stupidest things imaginable. In the ER's we refer to such folks as GOMERS.


gomer

1. a stupid oaf, a social reject

2. a patient unwelcome in a hospital(supposedly standing for get out of my emergency room)

"That's the third time in a week that this gomer has come here."

So NO, a parent CAN NOT take a child to see the provider of their choice if it PUTS THAT CHILDS LIFE AT RISK. They are children, not property.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 12, 2013 - 06:18pm PT
I love it when idiots who know nothing about anything, yet believe the actions of CPS is a precursor to Obama taking our guns, argue with rational people who work in the field and deal with the situations in question daily. That's what makes stupidtaco so special.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 12, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
I love it when idiots who know nothing about anything, yet believe the actions of CPS is a precursor to Obama taking our guns, argue with rational people who work in the field and deal with the situations in question daily. That's what makes stupidtaco so special.


It's funny but also insulting to the issue of neglected and abused children. As well as to the people who work in this field.

My mother-in-law is a damn smart, strong woman, who has chosen to spend her entire career in this field, intervening daily in horrible situations that would make your skin crawl. These retards waving their teabag flag over an issue they can't even grasp is more than pathetic. It will be nice when their short attention spans move on to the next talking point their overlords designate.
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
May 12, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
I love it when idiots who know nothing about anything, yet believe the actions of CPS is a precursor to Obama taking our guns, argue with rational people who work in the field and deal with the situations in question daily. That's what makes stupidtaco so special.

Special?


mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 12, 2013 - 06:35pm PT
werd to the Jebus
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 12, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
dudes, pass is open.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 12, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
the pass to sacrameto?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
May 12, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
That you Wally...?
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
May 12, 2013 - 06:57pm PT
EDITED
Bluey and Co. see this as a violation of civil rights, and the truth is somewhere between them and you. I wonder why the parents are now silent? Perhaps a court ordered gag order? I am familiar with such.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 12, 2013 - 07:00pm PT
who the hell is wally? he must be a good lookin fellow.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 12, 2013 - 07:17pm PT
Credit: kennyt
rSin

Trad climber
calif
May 12, 2013 - 07:22pm PT
dont think...
just swallow
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 12, 2013 - 08:32pm PT
Due to CPS, my daughters cannot ever see their mom

What do your daughters have to do with the case in question? Nothing at all. The child in question is back with the parents, no?

You say it is partly good that they don't see their mom, I assume good for your daughters sake.

So WTF?
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 12, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
I never realized that an underfunded bureaucracy could be so infallible.

So infallible that they are exempt from accountability.

So CPS social workers never make mistakes, they never overstep their bounds, the never occasionally have an employee who is incompetent, bitter, resentful, unstable, or just downright criminal in their ranks?

That's quite an impressive organization.

Same goes for prosecuting attorneys, right? No need for accountability there, they are protecting us from criminals.

Cops? The're the good guys too...ok, we can have internal reviews...a few weeks paid vacation while we come to the conclusion that they did noting wrong. After all, these guys deal with criminals - how could they be the ones in the wrong?

Some bureaucrat f*#ked up. Incompetence, malice, it doesn't really matter why. That set the system in motion, and as a result this family had to suffer because of it.

The rest of the story is one big CYA.






mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 12, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
Nobody ever said that Kos. Very disappointing that you think they did.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
May 12, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
were so f*#king ass backward here in the us,
the problem ISNT the systems overreach,
the problem is its lack

the cost being accrued to this family for a given incidence of it checking to see if its more potent abilities are warranted are not a fault of that system

its the fault of the flea bitten scum f*#ks who wont agree to it being funded properly

while their kid is being sorted out
this family should be eating fish eggs on crackers at the ritz

not suffering additional costs

theres only one party and agenda who stands in the way of state power being humane

thats the flea bitten asstards who brought this to our notice

Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 13, 2013 - 06:28am PT

Nobody ever said that Kos. Very disappointing that you think they did.


^Durp.

They're gonna f up sometimes, no doubt. I suppose it's a matter of which side you want them to error.
dirtbag

climber
May 13, 2013 - 06:43am PT
I'm going on a hunger strike until breakfast.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 13, 2013 - 06:45am PT
when blu goes on a beer strike I'll believe he's serious
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 13, 2013 - 06:47am PT
Heh, Kenny. Haven't you seen the he believes what he believes, don't matter he's f'd up speech?
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 13, 2013 - 06:49am PT
No, but I'd like to.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 13, 2013 - 06:57am PT
...later that same day...
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 13, 2013 - 07:23am PT
So do any of you know if any CPS has ever been accountable for any action?

When was the last time a CPS employee was reprimanded for their actions?

You guys are OK with that, an organization with tremendous power and no accountability?

(The folks without their own kids usually are, or really just don't care...)

My wife works in special education, she's worked with the "child protection" bureaucracy for decades. Yup, there are a lot of screwed up parents out there.

But that's only one side of it. There are a lot of screwed up social workers out there as well. People who don't have their sh#t together at all. People who neglect their jobs and make irrational, stupid and bitter decisions for various reasons, often because they can't get their own personal lives together. They are real, I can give you a list of names and plenty of examples.

These are the people that have the power to inflict a nightmare on a family with almost no checks and balances or accountability.

They can yank a child from their parents and pass them off to the foster care system, a for-profit bureaucracy that doesn't exactly have a stellar track record for protecting children.

And how does one obtain this power? They don't need much more than a psychology degree from the local Cal State.

In this particular situation, I see no reason why the Criminal Justice System needed to be invoked in such a drastic way. Did the doc even try to call the family and explain the gravity of the situation? This was likely just a case of poor communication. There is no reason it had to be escalated to a criminal process.

I've been to plenty of doctors and hospitals with my children. Doctors screw up also. They suck at communicating what's going on, they give incomplete and inconsistent guidance, and sometimes they make flat out wrong decisions. It's terrifying to think that my children could be seized on a the whim of some complete stranger just because I question a doctor, disagree with, or misunderstand their recommendation. Because I've done that before and will probably do it again.

It's terrifying to think that anyone even has to consider the risk of invoking the wrath of CPS when making medical and care decisions for their own children.

There was no crime committed in this situation. There was nothing even resembling a crime in this situation. Two parents were making an effort to seek medical care for their child. How the f*#k do they end up as criminals?

The "err on the side of children" argument is weak sauce. That platitude just opens the door wide-open for every law-enforcement abuse imaginable.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 13, 2013 - 07:35am PT
You sound like a competent guy with his sh#t together, why don't you reform CPS from the inside? Do the good work?

Right. The money isn't there for your valuable attention.

Our society gets the teachers and social workers it gets because it pays them at the scale it does. Pretty simple. That doesn't mean there aren't amazing and competent people doing the work, that is just disingenuous smearing.

Many of us get what you're saying, I just don't think siding up on some BS teabag authored protest is the path towards anything remotely resembling positive change. I also see a million holes in the parents' story - and that's from the biased half story provided by sympathetic sources!

Your plague of seized children is just as slippery a slope as my erring on the side of child welfare. My wife is a doc and, as a mandated reporter, has actually advised CPS to investigate, possibly separate highly abusive parents (beatings until morale improves types) from their children. Nothing happened. Not so slippery, is it?

CPS isn't broken, although it could be improved. However, I'm not going to go postal at the prodding of some anti-gubbermint wing nuts. Took ur jerbs! Took ur gerns! Took ur chilluns! Riiiggghht....
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 13, 2013 - 09:08am PT
I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to take my child away from a medical professional who deems them in need of medical attention... especially if I completed high school and clearly know at least as much as they do about anything and everything. It's what the founding fathers would have wanted... personal volition over reason!

Sad that the side trying to relaxing child labor laws are also the ones fighting funding for CPS and spearheading this ridiculous protest... and fighting funding to prevent unwanted children, the kind that could/would start working for the company that convince$ the parent$ to let them. I believe the children are our future... blurring and his ilk want to tea bag all of them.


Child molestation cases in the Catholic crutch extend to high levels... we should trust the crutch's moral authority and let them handle it internally.

CPS acts in full accordance to the law but inconveniences some parents who couldn't follow the simple hospital check out procedure... best obliterate the entire program.

Fuking insanity.


(good post Jeebs)
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 13, 2013 - 09:31am PT
You sound like a competent guy with his sh#t together, why don't you reform CPS from the inside? Do the good work?

 I was a Big Brother for 7 years.

 My wife has worked with special-needs children for twenty years. She has a college degree that could easily put her in the six-figure salary range, but she choose to work with children and probably doesn't get minimum wage when one considers all the hours she has put in.

 We've adopted a child. (It's a work in progress...)

Have we done enough "good work" yet?

Some of the arguments being used here are based on the same logic that is being used to justify torture by our government:

 "It's for the protection of our children."

 "How do we know there is no imminent danger unless we investigate?"

 "These are good people making tough decisions."

 "Waterboadring doesn't do any permanent harm"

 "It's better to err on the side of safety."

My issue is not with CPS, or with anyone's friend or relative who works for them.

My issue is with lack of due process and unchecked authority.



However, I'm not going to go postal at the prodding of some anti-gubbermint wing nuts. Took ur jerbs! Took ur gerns! Took ur chilluns! Riiiggghht....

And neither am I. You and Wes seem to be framing this as an "all or nothing, our team or their team" debate. It isn't. This has nothing to do with guns, or immigration, or any other issue. I haven't presented it that way - even bluering isn't framing it that way. But if we ignore the left/right nonsense and look at this specific situation, I see something very troubling.
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
May 13, 2013 - 09:50am PT
My issue is not with CPS, or with anyone's friend or relative who works for them.

My issue is with lack of due process and unchecked authority.

Exactly!

What is evident in the Sacto case is that CPS kept the whole matter alive long after it was obvious the parents were neither neglecting or abusing their baby. Now, the family is probably under a gag order not to speak publicly about anything.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 13, 2013 - 10:24am PT
You and Wes seem to be framing this as an "all or nothing, our team or their team" debate. It isn't. This has nothing to do with guns, or immigration, or any other issue.

hahahaaaaa... holy sh#t bud... you seen blurring's posts? And you think "we" are framing it as "all or nothing?" Christ man... WTF?

"We" aren't claiming it is about guns or immigration or any other issue. You seen his puppet master's rants?

This is what we are protesting. When a government agency can order police to raid a citizen’s home, without a warrant, and to seize their child against the wishes of medical professionals, is a day that we have entered into tyranny. More is sure to come with state-run ObamaCare. Next it will be for your guns. As Dollard said, “if they can do this to these parents, imagine what they will do to us in the future.”

Also, in relation to the broader, over-arching problem of increasing 4th Amendment violations by law enforcement agencies, we are going to begin investigating “brainwashing” of police officers by the Federal Government (via seminars, classes, videos and literature) in terms of casting these officers’ fellow citizens as domestic terror and other types of threats, when in fact these officers’ fellow citizens’ only crime is being Republican and/or legally armed and/or military. It is precisely this ‘war on the right wing extremists’ mentality that is being inculcated into police officers’ minds by the Federal and some state and local governments that is most-often responsible for the type of behavior you see on the part of the Sacramento Police Department in this incident.

Is that anywhere near rational?

"All or nothing, our team or their team"... yeah, nice flip there!!!

You have some good points Kos, but these folks most certainly DO NOT. Sure there is room for improvement, but that is NOT what these folks are calling for.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 13, 2013 - 10:32am PT
I'm not worried about "these [teabagger] folks" as much as I'm worried about folks that can take my children away with minimal justification.

Yeah, I know it's incredibly unlikely and there's so many other risks out there, but this stuff just hits close to home. My daughter has some health issues and the the decisions we have to make sometimes are just not clear cut. It is not so simple as "listen to the doctor."

Abusing children is a crime.

But "bad parenting", as determined by one person's subjective assessment, should never be handled by the criminal justice system.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 13, 2013 - 10:44am PT
1) the Nikolayevs had apparently been taking their baby to a specialist for exams regularly, I assume since birth.

2) the Dr., who presumably has been examining the baby its whole life, determines it needs surgery... soon.

3) the parents and the babies disappear from the hospital without checking out.

Kos, what do you expect the Dr to do? I, and most of society, would expect the Dr to contact CPS, especially if the parents were acting sketchy to begin with.

4) once CPS got the report they have to ensure the baby's safety.

When was CPS informed about the 2nd opinion? Who gave the 2nd opinion? Was it a specialist who had the baby's full history... or an ER Dr who was asked if their baby had the flu?

The whole mess would have been avoided if the parents had not taken their baby (with a potentially serious heart condition) from the hospital before properly checking out... but those who blow the "personal responsibility and accountability" horn the hardest insist it is a "big government" problem. The problem was CREATED by the parents, not the Dr or the CPS.

The Pat Dollards of the country have been saying Obama was going to be seizing your guns. Now they say they will be seizing your children. Stop falling into their bullshit trap of fear. You are better than that.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 13, 2013 - 10:48am PT
There was due process, I thought. I guess you don't want the courts involved, period?

I dunno, Dave, I realize you have a lot at stake in this argument and that it's very personalized for you, but I'm guessing from what was related these parents did not handle their sh#t correctly at all. Do you behave like a paranoid sketchball when you take your daughter into the doc? It sounds like these parents' behavior was erratic and somewhat baffling, and that's just the sort of thing you look for when suspecting neglect and abuse.

Yeah, you expect stressed out parents riding your every move (one big reason I wouldn't work pediatrics), so I believe healthcare personnel used to that as a baseline saw something more than is being relayed to trigger their calling in on the parents.

I don't know that Wes or I are framing this argument as all or nothing. I'm pretty sure I'm not, I'm just saying anything proposed by Bluey as a good idea is probably up for scrutiny. That's my knee jerk response, anyway ;). Of course these processes should undergo scrutiny, etc., I don't know where you get that I'm not saying that.

I'd guess the reasonable heads in this argument are a lot closer to agreeing than not. I don't believe the whole story was relayed and I don't trust their instincts to go viral and run to people with questionable motives for help. It isn't my call though, I suppose we'll see how many interests fight this one out and for what reason. I just hope it isn't for the reasons I saw in Bluey's links.

Oh well, I ain't got time for this sh#t. Y'all have fun today!
John M

climber
May 13, 2013 - 11:01am PT
Abusing children is a crime.

But "bad parenting", as determined by one person's subjective assessment, should never be handled by the criminal justice system.

So who determines when "bad parenting" becomes Abuse?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
May 13, 2013 - 11:23am PT
But "bad parenting", as determined by one person's subjective assessment, should never be handled by the criminal justice system.

Uh... wrong. "Bad parenting" is often a crime. And the legal system should get involved.

"Bad parenting" and crimes of neglect/abuse are not determined by "one person's subjective assessment." CPS cases often end up in a court of law for final determination with due process.




Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 13, 2013 - 11:36am PT
Kos, what do you expect the Dr to do?


I would expect the doctor to contact the parents and ask what's going on. That's the common sense thing to do. Make sure there is no miscommunication.

I understand that there are probably rules in place that may prevent the doctor from doing this. If there are such rules, then perhaps something is broken.

Do you behave like a paranoid sketchball when you take your daughter into the doc?


I've learned to question everything when dealing with medical professionals. When I was younger, I trusted doctors like they were some sort of gods. After decades of real life experience, I am wiser.

I ask a lot of questions. Yup, I'm "that guy." Maybe you doctors have a cute name for someone like me - I don't care - it has made a difference. I've caught more than one mistake by asking the right questions.

It sounds like these parents' behavior was erratic and somewhat baffling, and that's just the sort of thing you look for when suspecting neglect and abuse.

I think they were rash, probably got to the point where they had enough and just decided to take their business elsewhere. That was a mistake, and it set the machine in motion.

But it was not a criminal mistake (or if it is according to the letter of the law, then the law should be changed.)

So who determines when "bad parenting" becomes Abuse?

Someone with authority who also has the proper accountability.

Someone who has power but can be removed from that position or held liable if they abuse that power.

Uh... wrong. "Bad parenting" is often a crime. And the legal system should get involved.

No, abuse and severe neglect are crimes.

It's not a semantic nitpick. These words mean very different things than just "bad parenting."

If "bad parenting" is a crime, can you please refer me to the section of the US or CA code that defines it as a crime?

I'll be calling my legislators if these laws actually existed.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 13, 2013 - 11:43am PT
I've learned to question everything when dealing with medical professionals. When I was younger, I trusted doctors like they were some sort of gods. After decades of real life experience, I am wiser.

I ask a lot of questions. Yup, I'm "that guy." Maybe you doctors have a cute name for someone like me - I don't care - it has made a difference. I've caught more than one mistake by asking the right questions.

Yeah, I'm not talking about keeping yourself informed and being an educated consumer. Those are the cute words I have for what you're talking about.

Hell yeah mistakes are made in healthcare! Good move to take responsibility for your health!

I think there's something more going on in this particular case, not some mechanism looking to target people like yourself. Seems we disagree. So it goes.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 13, 2013 - 11:58am PT
Just remember that the paranoid hysteria can work both ways:

Kern County child abuse cases
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kern_County_child_abuse_cases

At least 36 people were convicted and most of them spent years imprisoned. Thirty-four convictions were overturned on appeal. The district attorney responsible for the convictions was Ed Jagels,[2] who was sued by at least one of those whose conviction was overturned,[3] and who remained in office until 2009.[4] Two convicts died in prison, unable to clear their names.


Day-care sex-abuse hysteria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-care_sex-abuse_hysteria

The Child Cases: Guilty Until Proved Innocent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kern_County_child_abuse_cases
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 13, 2013 - 12:06pm PT
I think they were rash, probably got to the point where they had enough and just decided to take their business elsewhere. That was a mistake, and it set the machine in motion.

But it was not a criminal mistake

And NOBODY was accused of committing a crime (except CPS). The parents were investigated, as it should be.

Do you not see how they flip that sh#t all around on you Kos? The PARENTS CREATED the whole fuking mess. A government agency put in place to protect the welfare of children acted according to design, to ensure the safety of the child. And the fukheads get the idiots all riled up at the CPS for "taking their babies"... next it will be your guns... and then what? Hitler! Communists! Ted Nugget!

Edit: Kos, you can find corruption and/or paranoia in EVERY aspect of life. Those links you provide have NOTHING to do with this case.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2013 - 07:15pm PT
Dave Kos is largely spot-on here. CPS serves a role, but they are not exempt from abuses.

This case was clearly abuse. Wes will try to demonize the family, but his arguments have no merit based on the facts of the case.

The family was harassed.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 13, 2013 - 07:49pm PT
moran
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
May 13, 2013 - 07:57pm PT
moran

Thomas Moran? Not sure i'd give him that much credit. . .

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 13, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
hey morans...pass is open
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 13, 2013 - 11:27pm PT
I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to take my child away from a medical professional who deems them in need of medical attention... especially if I completed high school and clearly know at least as much as they do about anything and everything. It's what the founding fathers would have wanted... personal volition over reason!

Do you think you should be able to disconnect a child from life support machines, to carry them to the acupuncturist of choice?

Do you think you should be able to remove your child in the middle of surgery, with their insides exposed, to carry them off to the Veterinarian of your choice?

I think you would advocate neither. I think if a parent took such an action, you would support calling the police to intervene.

So.....there are limits to a parents' choices. In the situation noted, the child was removed while a life-threatening situation was being evaluated.

In every hospital that I've ever been in, if a person wanted a transfer to another facility, it would be arranged! With all the records, and if necessary, in a mobile intensive care unit.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 13, 2013 - 11:32pm PT
Now, the family is probably under a gag order not to speak publicly about anything.

And maybe you are a cross-dressing pedophile. But neither of us have any evidence to speculate in that manner.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 13, 2013 - 11:40pm PT
So do any of you know if any CPS has ever been accountable for any action?

When was the last time a CPS employee was reprimanded for their actions?

You guys are OK with that, an organization with tremendous power and no accountability?

Here is LA, there has been repeated firing of the management of CPS the last couple of years.

And guess why???????

They didn't intervene ENOUGH.

Thursday, March 29 2012
California State Auditor's Report on Los Angeles County CPS Department Reveals Disturbing Findings Featured
SACRAMENTO- The California State Auditor's report on Los Angeles County’s efforts to prevent child abuse and neglect was released Thursday and showed a disturbing backlog of cases and a blatant disregard for California state law which requires criminal background checks when placing children in the homes of relatives.

Assemblymember Henry T. Perea (D-Fresno) requested the audit and is disappointed that the Department of Social Services (DSS) has failed to ensure current law is implemented and children are protected.

“Los Angeles County’s Child Protective Services Department has some deep seeded problems that are affecting the way they care for children,” Assemblymember Perea said. “It is upsetting to see that LA County, in the audit, was disingenuous about their interpretation of state laws and their own policies. Their system is flawed. It is DSS’s responsibility to implement state law. Our children deserve better.”

Assemblymember Perea will submit a letter to DSS requesting the following:

DSS Waiver Rescinded
LA County CPS has struggled to complete its investigations of referrals within the number of days specified by DSS. In August 2010, DSS granted this request, extending the department’s time frame for closing an investigation to 60 days. Assemblymember Perea will be request that DSS rescind the waiver effective June 30, 2012 and return to the standard of 30 days that all other counties attempt to follow.

Backlog of Uncompleted Investigations
LA County had a backlog of 3,200 uncompleted investigations as of January 2012. The letter will request DSS monitor the status of the backlog and work with LA County CPS to revise their own policies and performance measures to no longer define the backlog as investigations over 60 days old.

Required Assessments not Performed Consistently
The department did not consistently perform important assessments and background checks before placing children in homes, as required by state law. The State Auditor found that nearly 900 children lived in homes of relatives that—once assessed by the department—were determined to be unsafe or inappropriate. It typically took 43 days to either remove these children from the placements or reassess and approve the homes. The letter will urge DSS to perform the appropriate oversight so that children are placed only in safe homes.

Assemblymember Perea introduced AB 1697 to be used as the legislative vehicle to hold DSS accountable for making sure existing state law is implemented.

###


The problem is, no one knows what is going on until an evaluation happens.

If there is no major problem, and they act to protect the child......you end up with a living child.

If there IS a major problem, and they DONT act to protect the child.......you end up with a dead child.

I'm not sure why you guys are on the side of the dead child outcome.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 14, 2013 - 06:44am PT
Do you think you should be able to disconnect a child from life support machines, to carry them to the acupuncturist of choice?

Do you think you should be able to remove your child in the middle of surgery, with their insides exposed, to carry them off to the Veterinarian of your choice?

Do you know what a straw-man argument is?

And maybe you are a cross-dressing pedophile. But neither of us have any evidence to speculate in that manner.

Cuz there's no speculation going on in this thread...

Here is LA, there has been repeated firing of the management of CPS the last couple of years.

And guess why???????

They didn't intervene ENOUGH.

You're missing the point.

It's good that people are fired for incompetence or failure to perform their job at all. That's a start.

But what I am talking about is abuse of power.

I'm talking about overzealous prosecution, misrepresentation for the purpose of "winning" the case or scoring more points to advance one's career.

District attorneys do it all the time. There is a long history DA's hiding evidence, prosecuting people they know are innocent in order to advance their careers or simply save face. (See my links above for the Kern county child abuse cases for terrifying examples. And there are many more.)

Does this happen in CPS? If there is no accountability, no consequences when they do cross the line, then it very likely does happen.

The problem is, no one knows what is going on until an evaluation happens.

If there is no major problem, and they act to protect the child......you end up with a living child.

If there IS a major problem, and they DONT act to protect the child.......you end up with a dead child.

I'm not sure why you guys are on the side of the dead child outcome.

You've just made the same argument that Fox News and company does when advocating torture, infinite detention, etc.

One could use your exact same words above to argue in favor of suspending all civil liberties in the "war on terror" or the "war on drugs" or other issues that potentially involve the safety of children.

Dumbing-down this issue to the notion of "it's for the children" is trite and dangerous.

I understand that there are multiple sides to this issue and that there is no perfect solution. However, based on your incredibly shallow arguments, it appears that you don't understand the basic concept of due process of law. That's all the more reason this situation is troubling.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 14, 2013 - 07:02am PT
You've just made the same argument that Fox News and company does when advocating torture, infinite detention, etc.

One could use your exact same words above to argue in favor of suspending all civil liberties in the "war on terror" or the "war on drugs" or other issues that potentially involve the safety of children.

Do YOU know what a strawman argument with a side of herring is??!?!!!!

it appears that you don't understand the basic concept of due process of law. That's all the more reason this situation is troubling.

Tell us about due process of law then. Who was deprived of life, liberty, or property by CPS?
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 14, 2013 - 07:09am PT
Wes,

I'm not gonna bother responding to your posts.

You don't add any value to the discussion.

And you aren't nearly as smart as you think you are.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 14, 2013 - 07:17am PT
I've already proven that I am far smarter than any of us could ever imagine.



How did CPS violate the constitutional rights of the parents or break the law?
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 14, 2013 - 07:31am PT
Ok Wes,

Here's the crux of your due process question above. I'm sure you can sort it out:

 Who is deprived of life, liberty, or property when their child is forcibly taken from them?

 Who is deprived of life, liberty, or property when they are waterboarded?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 14, 2013 - 07:41am PT
Who is deprived of life, liberty, or property when their child is forcibly taken from them?

Trick question because NOBODY is deprived of life, liberty, or property when a child is taken into protective custody.


And what the fuk does water boarding have to do with the case in question. (Hint: absofukinglutely nothing)
John M

climber
May 14, 2013 - 09:10am PT
Dave,

Ken answered these questions..

So do any of you know if any CPS has ever been accountable for any action?

When was the last time a CPS employee was reprimanded for their actions?

And he said yes they had been, and he gave an example.. So that isn't a strawman even though it didn't answer your earlier problem, which was.

My issue is with lack of due process and unchecked authority.

I do see your point. I don't know if anyone has been disciplined for being over zealous. That would be a hard line to draw as being under zealous leads to kids being left in abusive situations. I do believe that an effort was made to try give CPS some oversight, and that is when the oversight by a judge specializing in families and children's problems was added. But even that can be trouble because the judge can end up mostly just siding with CPS because he/she gets jaded about parents. So what kind of oversight are you talking about?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 14, 2013 - 09:13am PT
Where is Sacrameto?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 14, 2013 - 09:23am PT
Where is Sacrameto?


south of Mt Shata, north of Freno
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 14, 2013 - 09:47am PT
south of Mt Shata, north of Freno



Gawdamn, that made me spit coffee out my nose!!!
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
May 14, 2013 - 10:27am PT
I don't know if anyone has been disciplined for being over zealous. That would be a hard line to draw as being under zealous leads to kids being left in abusive situations. I do believe that an effort was made to try give CPS some oversight, and that is when the oversight by a judge specializing in families and children's problems was added. But even that can be trouble because the judge can end up mostly just siding with CPS because he/she gets jaded about parents. So what kind of oversight are you talking about?

Oversight? I posted this upthread as example of what happens when the CPS-camel gets its nose under the tent:

1. CPS can come over and enter their home anytime without notice and perform an inspection. CPS may also contract these inspections to other providers who will come over and look around and ask questions ($80/hr).

2. All medical records must be furnished to CPS.

3. Both parents will attend a series of performance-based parenting classes and group sessions with other parents, most of which have their children in foster homes. These classes take 12 weeks to 18 months to complete.

4. If parents undergo any counseling, the records must be furnished to CPS.

5. Parents must agree to substance abuse screening. Regardless of outcome, no alcohol may be in the home.

6. Parents must undergo a psychological evaluation by CPS-controlled psychologists, and the records are property of CPS for their use.

7. No overnight travel is permitted without prior approval from CPS; if staying with friends, the hosts must undergo CPS background investigations beforehand.

8. Overnight guests or family must undergo CPS background investigations prior to staying overnight.

9. The parents agree to not discuss or disclose any matter regarding their case with anyone, including the media, without court approval.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 14, 2013 - 10:57am PT
I do see your point. I don't know if anyone has been disciplined for being over zealous. That would be a hard line to draw as being under zealous leads to kids being left in abusive situations. I do believe that an effort was made to try give CPS some oversight, and that is when the oversight by a judge specializing in families and children's problems was added. But even that can be trouble because the judge can end up mostly just siding with CPS because he/she gets jaded about parents. So what kind of oversight are you talking about?

I think we can start by recognizing that forcibly separating a child from parents, even for a short time, causes severe hardship and stress. The investigative process itself is a form of punishment. Of course it may be necessary, but it cannot be dismissed as a non-event, or minor inconvenience. Those parents will be haunted by this for a long time. If the child is not an infant, the experience will leave a deep impression. We need to recognize that the process itself will do harm, of course it may well be the lesser of two evils, but these actions do have an impact.

The standard to invoke forceful separation of children from their parents should be very high. Not just a hunch, not just a "maybe" - it has to be a "probably" that is verified by multiple objective sources. In this particular case, I don't see clear evidence that that standard was met.

Oversight is tough to implement, but there are basic controls that can be applied: Ensure that more than one person is involved in the decisions, review statistics on past decisions to ensure that the process is not just a "rubber stamp." Allow the accused to review and challenge the inputs to the decision, etc.

But most importantly, ensure that there are criminal laws in place that have enough teeth to deter anyone who may abuse their power. Somebody who messes with families just because they can should go to jail.

In the law-enforcement world, it is well-established that it is almost impossible for a district attorney to be held criminally liable for their actions performed on the job. They can lie, withould evidence, ignore evidence, even fabricate evidence and the consequences are very light at best (examples are not hard to find.) Even the most corrupt DAs almost never go to jail, and it's not because they don't break any laws (or perhaps it is because there are no laws for them to break.)

Here's a story where a DA was prosecuted. Unfortunately, this is an incredibly rare occurence:

http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/Michael_Morton_Prosecutor_Will_Face_Criminal_Charges_for_Withholding_Evidence.php

My concern is that the CPS system operates in a similar way. The bias toward "protecting the children" is so powerful that there is no scrutiny and only superficial accountability. Do we have a system where one rouge employee can create a nightmare for many families?

This is not an unsubstantiated "slippery slope" argument. The Kern county daycare child abuse cases I linked above are frightening examples of how many lives can be destroyed by overzealous prosecution that is unchecked because nobody dares challenge the people who are "protecting" our children.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 14, 2013 - 11:00am PT
I posted this upthread as example of what happens when the CPS-camel gets its nose under the tent

Is that what IS happening, or what COULD happen? HUGE difference. I'm perfectly happy to have everything on that list apply to many of the cases CPS has to be involved with. I think those would be overkill in this case... and I seriously doubt those will be applied to this case. Just more bullshit from the paranoid.

Somebody who messes with families just because they can should go to jail.

Nobody messed with this family just because they could. You are delusional.
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
May 14, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
Is that what IS happening, or what COULD happen? HUGE difference. I'm perfectly happy to have everything on that list apply to many of the cases CPS has to be involved with. I think those would be overkill in this case... and I seriously doubt those will be applied to this case. Just more bullshit from the paranoid.

Being paranoid does not equate to being wrong. That list of conditions is pretty benign compared to having the child removed from the home. You’re caving by admitting it would be overkill for this particular case. If CPS and the police stormed the home without a warrant, this case was labeled as an emergency under the 4th amendment; that’s pretty serious. Wasn’t that overkill, too?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 14, 2013 - 01:10pm PT
Being paranoid does not equate to being wrong.

It doesn't equate to being right either. None of the paranoid bullshit spewed forth on the pages of this thread has anything to do with what happened in this particular case.

None of you have shown that any information was provided to CPS that would suggest the baby was safe. The baby was removed from the home to ensure its safety until the case was investigated. That is how CPS was designed. That is how CPS works. The rest is insane hyperbole.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 14, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
Here's a timely article:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/14/us-usa-lawsuit-gender-idUSBRE94D0ZQ20130514

A South Carolina couple sued doctors and state social workers on Tuesday for subjecting a 16-month-old child born with both male and female genitalia to what they say was medically unnecessary and irreversible sex-assignment surgery while the toddler was in foster care.

Great news, folks! Now when your kid is in the custody of the Department of Social Services, they'll even throw in a few "improvements" at no cost to you!
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 14, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
Kos... again... that has NOTHING to do with the case in question. Absolutely 100% nothing.

For starters, the parents who are filing the suit adopted the child AFTER the surgery was performed.

You make it sound like CPS takes babies away, swaps out their junk, and gives them back just for fun.

Keep up the great posts. Some of the dumbest, most irrelevant sh#t I've ever seen. But hey, at least blurring is impressed.
enjoimx

Trad climber
SLO
May 14, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
How do you guys have the time to be so intimately involved in these news cases that you claim to know who the right and wrong parties are, and then debate it endlessly online?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 14, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
I spend most of my time pointing out how the unrelated bullshit spewed by the rightwing tea bagger fear machine has nothing to do with this case. The rest is pure speculation. As for time, it really doesn't take that much.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 14, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
I actually don't know much about this particular case.

But neither does anybody else here.

That's a big part of what's troubling. Why are the workings of an organization with the power to separate families so opaque?

How do I have the time? I spend a lot of time waiting for computers to do their stuff. Also lots of boring meetings.

The article I just posted was on the front page of Google News. Not hard to find.

I find the fact that government agencies are performing sex change operations on children to be a little odd, to say the least. Not exactly a medically necessary procedure.



mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 14, 2013 - 03:53pm PT
I find the fact that government agencies are performing sex change operations on children to be a little odd, to say the least. Not exactly a medically necessary procedure.

I'm sure they did it for selfish reasons... because they can... because they have no accountability.

Everyone knows a child with "ambiguous genitalia" is just as likely to be adopted as one with "normal genitalia." Derrr!

"Hi, we'd like to adopt!"

"Great. Male, Female, or No Preference?"

"We were thinking more along the lines of ambiguous."
rSin

Trad climber
calif
May 14, 2013 - 03:55pm PT
you do look like an ass for wanting to kick the tires
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 16, 2013 - 01:13pm PT
Where is Sacrameto?
south of Mt Shata, north of Freno

Shoot, I reckon I grew up in Wet Sacameto.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2013 - 04:36pm PT
http://patdollard.com/2013/05/video-how-our-constitutional-rights-are-being-violated/

The video I taped with Jeff in front of Sacramento City Hall.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
May 17, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
Stay the f*#k out of my city. I mean it.

Don't come back. You're not welcome.

DMT
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 17, 2013 - 05:40pm PT
DMT, you live in sacrameto?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 17, 2013 - 05:40pm PT
OMG, I've never seen Sacramento so empty. Nary a soul even walked by. I assume the thousands of supporters were just off camera...

Nice pumpin intro straight from a double ought gay bar.
WTF

climber
May 17, 2013 - 08:00pm PT
I'm I the only one who is certain Wes's mom is bummed she didn't have an abortion.

Dip sh#t go back to the sh#t hole you came from leave the west shore. You are the problem around here. Go to the pdq and buy some rat poison and drink it.

Please!
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 17, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
I thought the T.R.P.A was the problem there?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 17, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
Where others see problems, I see solutions... and ass wipes talking about problems.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 18, 2013 - 12:02am PT
Stay the f*#k out of my city. I mean it.

Don't come back. You're not welcome.

DMT


Jeff lives in Sac. Is it really YOUR city? I thought this was America, ya know? Remember that?


Is the Constitution valid in DingusWorld???
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 18, 2013 - 07:50am PT
This was America, until you Merkins turned it into Uhmerka.

Google Merkin blurring... that's you... a Whig used to hide pussies after they have been infested with lice.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 18, 2013 - 07:53am PT
d
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
May 18, 2013 - 07:54am PT

Is the Constitution valid in DingusWorld???

Of course it is.

Now get your teabagger ass out of my city.

DMT
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 18, 2013 - 07:55am PT
Credit: kennyt
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
May 18, 2013 - 08:31am PT
Bluey, maybe your right. Check this out:

Carolyn Compton is in a three year-old relationship with a woman. According to Compton’s partner Page Price, Compton’s ex-husband rarely sees their two children and was also once charged with stalking Compton, a felony, although he eventually plead to a misdemeanor charge of criminal trespassing.
And yet, thanks to a Texas judge, Compton could lose custody of her children because she has the audacity to live with the woman she loves.
According to Price, Judge John Roach, a Republican who presides over a state trial court in McKinney, Texas, placed a so-called “morality clause” in Compton’s divorce papers. This clause forbids Compton having a person that she is not related to “by blood or marriage” at her home past 9pm when her children are present. Since Texas will not allow Compton to marry her partner, this means that she effectively cannot live with her partner so long as she retains custody over her children. Invoking the “morality clause,” Judge Roach gave Price 30 days to move out of Compton’s home.
Compton can appeal Price’s decision, but her appeal will be heard by the notoriously conservative Texas court system. Ultimately, the question of whether Compton’s relationship with Price is entitled to the same dignity accorded to any other loving couple could rest with the United States Supreme Court.

So uh.... when are you guys going down to tear a strip off the Texas court ?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 18, 2013 - 09:14am PT
Government should have NO say in issues dealing with child safety, who has easy access to killing machines, or health insurance.

The only legitimate issues for government to be involved with are women's bodies, birth control, and gay marriage.

Fuking Merkins.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
May 18, 2013 - 03:27pm PT
Man this is an amazing thread and all I get is the dust. Stay classy, Supertopo.


Also, PatDollardDotCom is now my favorite site on the internet. I am all over this sh#t.


*edit* (As a nurse and having just had a child in a hospital I can tell you that if you don't follow proper protocol and try to walk out of a hospital with a kid you'd better believe a small army of people are going to tackle your ass.)
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 18, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
Bruce, You don't mess with Texas!
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
May 18, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
sac is a great drinkin town, joe martys is on Broadway, they have great pics of baseball stars on the wall, they will serve anybody, no matter how f*#ked up they are, on a sunday morning, that was our hangover club right after church,

we used to go to Luis's on Alhambra. best tacos i tonw, 1 inch square chunks of beef steak, strongest margraritas in town, Luis had all these pics of him with famous people,
it was the coolest place i town to eat, if you got a little to f*#ked up, they would pack your drink in a 7 up dixie cup and let you take it home,

Luis died and the son ran it out of biz,

the good cooks went to Ernestos on 16 th,

Forrest B.

Trad climber
Appalacia
May 18, 2013 - 07:07pm PT
I have not read this in its entirety, but CPS is scary. We were told by the hospital when we had our son that if we did not give him certian shots that they would have to report us to CPS. This was an eye opener that the Govt clearly knows what is best.

Yes, you libs need to wale up. Gov't is not the answer
rSin

Trad climber
calif
May 18, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
so you said " go ahead and inform! but your not giving my kid those shots!!!"

then what happened?
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
May 18, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
Credit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Graffiti

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Graffiti
Forrest B.

Trad climber
Appalacia
May 18, 2013 - 07:56pm PT
There was 3 shots if i remeber correctly, and no way do I remember what they where for, but the nurse said if we refused all 3 CPS would have to be notified. We agreed to one, as it seemed we had no choice by law.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 18, 2013 - 08:22pm PT
Hahaha... isn't this funny? Blurring and other conservative dipnards complain about measles epidemics (etc) from immigrants... then a like minded anti-government nutjob chimes in with the "they forced me to immunize my child" rant.

Fuking people.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 18, 2013 - 10:51pm PT
we used to go to Luis's on Alhambra. best tacos i tonw, 1 inch square chunks of beef steak, strongest margraritas in town, Luis had all these pics of him with famous people,
it was the coolest place i town to eat, if you got a little to f*#ked up, they would pack your drink in a 7 up dixie cup and let you take it home,

I went through medical school taking my meals at Luis's, just up the street from the hospital.

Tons of good food, cheap. Good drinks. Luis was always hanging out.

I'd not been back in 25 years until last year, and was heartbroken when I went by and it was boarded up. :(
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 18, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
I have not read this in its entirety, but CPS is scary. We were told by the hospital when we had our son that if we did not give him certian shots that they would have to report us to CPS. This was an eye opener that the Govt clearly knows what is best.

Forrest, you have a perverse sense of what happened.

The gov't did not require you to get shots. CPS did not require you to get shots.

Actually, it was an employee of PRIVATE ENTERPRISE, that required you to get this!

Who would stand up for this abuse? Probably the gov't. Probably the ACLU.

but you don't put your faith in such things. You put your faith in the entities that performed the abuse.

Conservatives don't get that they are embracing abuse of their children.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
May 19, 2013 - 11:17am PT
Forrest said
I have not read this in its entirety, but CPS is scary. We were told by the hospital when we had our son that if we did not give him certian shots that they would have to report us to CPS. This was an eye opener that the Govt clearly knows what is best.


I'm not doubting that you were told this, what I'm doubting is that it's true. There are no laws requiring the vaccination of your children. The hospital cannot keep your children if you refuse medical care for them. CPS cannot take your children away if you don't want to get a Hep B vaccine. Someone may have strong opinions about vaccinations and that person may be a doctor or a nurse or a CPS official but it does not give them magical extralegal powers.

What it is is an eye opener that you don't know your rights as a parent, that the person you were talking to didn't know your rights as a parent and that you are super ready to believe a story about the evils of government based on misinformation.
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
May 31, 2013 - 09:22am PT
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/30/trenton-mathis-2-year-old-shoots-self_n_3360788.html

How do you feel about CPS in this situation?

Charles
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 31, 2013 - 09:38am PT
ya gots to have a gun in yer nightstand to protect yourself from the badguys at all costs.

bluering should protest against idiots with guns. but he would be shooting himself in the foot
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
May 31, 2013 - 10:02am PT
If CPS is scary to you, you have problems that need immediate attention.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 31, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
If CPS is scary to you, you have problems that need immediate attention.

Yes, anyone who does not blindly trust every opaque organization with extreme power is is clearly not rational.

Now where is that thread where people are bitching about drone strikes....
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 31, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
Damned if they do, damned if they don't:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-0531-child-death-20130530,0,3314607.story

When paramedics arrived at his Palmdale home last week, 8-year-old Gabriel Fernandez's skull was cracked, three ribs were broken and his skin was bruised and burned. He had BB pellets embedded in his lung and groin. Two teeth were knocked out of his mouth.

His mother's boyfriend allegedly told authorities that he beat Gabriel repeatedly for lying and "being dirty," according to confidential county documents reviewed by The Times.

Los Angeles County's Department of Children and Family Services left Gabriel in the home despite six investigations into abuse allegations involving the mother over the last decade.

...Four social workers have been placed on desk duty pending possible disciplinary action.
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
May 31, 2013 - 01:11pm PT
Gary, that is just a damned sad story...

Charles
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 31, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
Moms a f*#kin loser whore.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
May 31, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
Kenny,

Is this some kind of epiphany ?

Social workers aren't perfect but reducing human reality to the level of a media name calling, sports game is something you could do better with.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
If CPS is scary to you, you have problems that need immediate attention.

If you trust them to do right universally, you are the fool. They are very flawed. And way too much power to seize kids!
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 31, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
Kenny,

Is this some kind of epiphany ?

Social workers aren't perfect but reducing human reality to the level of a media name calling, sports game is something you could do better with.
please translate.


uhh Jim, moms letting her loser boyfriend beat on her son when she's not? loser whore. sorry
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
May 31, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
Everything is flawed.

I went though a long and evil child custody battle, & had my son taken from me.

After a long hard battle they figured out who was telling the truth & in the end their reports help get me full legal & physical custody of my son.

If someone (CPS) had stepped in over the last few months the little 8 year in Palmdale that was beaten to death after months of being beaten would still be here.

You taking up the wrong battle will prevent some child that needs help from being helped.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 31, 2013 - 06:16pm PT
If someone (CPS) had stepped in over the last few months the little 8 year in Palmdale that was beaten to death after months of being beaten would still be here.


you mean not all parents are good, loving, and responsible?


and those millions of abused, beaten, sexually assaulted kids?

well, that's just the price I would be willing to pay if they would only do away with those stupid big government do gooding Child Protection Services, and stuff

I mean, being an American means taking personal responsibility, sheesh...

Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
May 31, 2013 - 06:31pm PT
Kenny, I understand the situation and your condemnation of the idiots involved.

I'm also not cheering on the side of this discussion that thinks; Because f*#k ups happen, the people who are trying to apply reason in the face of emotional retardese have no merit.

Walk a mile in their shoes...
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 31, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
okeedokee, still don't understand where I sided against cps.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
May 31, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
okeedokee back at ya, you smug SOB you think you're not !

Dude was obviously left alone to f*#k up a child. Did you step in like the superman you idealize yourself as ?

Or did you hold your nose and wish those other people would just see the light of enlightenment...

You're wearing your upbringing on your sleeve.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 31, 2013 - 06:51pm PT
I'm laughing my ass off right now, cuz I have no clue what the f*#k you are talking about.

EDIT: Jim, In MY OPINION any mother that lets her boyfriend beat on her kids is a loser whore. that's it. don't dig so deep

You're wearing your upbringing on your sleeve.

my moms boyfriend didn't beat on me did yers?


photo not found
Missing photo ID#305196
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
May 31, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
Man accused of putting 6-week-old baby daughter in freezer

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/05/28/18567782-man-accused-of-putting-6-week-old-baby-daughter-in-freezer?lite
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
May 31, 2013 - 07:00pm PT
Kenny,

It's indisputable the BF was a controlling idiot and a piece of sh#t.

You show no level of sympathy for people who think they have no alternative to the life they have, compared to the one you know is available.

This is the ground social workers walk. Like I said, try it...
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 31, 2013 - 07:00pm PT
government employees screwed up again and did not get there quick enough to stop it
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
May 31, 2013 - 07:01pm PT
Jump into your Batmobile, Norton.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 31, 2013 - 07:09pm PT
When paramedics arrived at his Palmdale home last week, 8-year-old Gabriel Fernandez's skull was cracked, three ribs were broken and his skin was bruised and burned. He had BB pellets embedded in his lung and groin. Two teeth were knocked out of his mouth.
sorry Jim you're right she was probably so busy volunteering down at the homeless shelter and had no clue there were alternatives to this type of life.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
May 31, 2013 - 07:17pm PT
Kenny,

I never said that or meant that.

personal reality is based on what is perceived by an individual. If an individual has options to their situation based on what learning they were imparted with, there is a chance the outcome of a bad situation can be resolved through reason and logic.

Many people are not so fortunate to have this basic cultural grounding in their life and have probably been called a whore so many times that it doesn't register so much, day to day while ducking punches.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
May 31, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
ME--- If CPS is scary to you, you have problems that need immediate attention.

DAVEY Kos ----Yes, anyone who does not blindly trust every opaque organization with extreme power is is clearly not rational.

How on earth did you jump that chasm? WTF?

I have had lot of dealing with CPS. Less than 1% of parents ever deal with them. If you are even a half way good parent you have got no problems.

The last thing CPS needs are larger case loads. They are over worked as it is.

Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
May 31, 2013 - 07:21pm PT
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2331941/Chinese-baby-flushed-toilet-rescued-ALIVE-Did-mother-raise-alarm.html
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 31, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
^^^^ my guess is know one ever told her you shouldn't flush yer baby down the toilet.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
May 31, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
Less than 0.00001% of American citizens have ever been killed by drone strikes.

(The number is not an exaggeration.)

What's all the fuss about?

kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 31, 2013 - 07:50pm PT
what's a drone? I'm mostly worried about those unmanned planes that go around blowin sh#t up.
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
May 31, 2013 - 10:16pm PT
It's my humble opinion that you should put a bullet in the head of anyone that beats a child...

Charles
John M

climber
May 31, 2013 - 10:39pm PT
If you are even a half way good parent you have got no problems.

Your statements sounds like you are ignoring the times when CPS gets overzealous and puts a good parent through the wringer. Any organization, no matter how well led can make serious mistakes. It is humans doing the work after all. They have a lot of power. They need to have a lot of power. But that power can be abused. Just like the police can and have abused their power, the military, and even the judicial system. Along with private groups and corporations.

If you are a good parent are you likely to have a problem with CPS? No. not likely. But it does happen. Which is what needs to be guarded against. One problem is that the system is often overwhelmed and is becoming more and more burdened with overbearing rules, which drives out too many good foster parents. Good foster parents are in too short of a supply for us to be burdening them. Another problem is knowing who the good ones are.

CPS is a tough job. I challenge anyone here to get on the sharp end of the stick.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
May 31, 2013 - 10:43pm PT
i'm not ignoring anything.

I know I've been on the wrong side & I'm a good parent.

It was the worst thing that ever happened to me.

But I did what had to be done.

I think you don't think very deeply. & don't go get butt hurt. You clearly didn't read the whole post.
BuddhaStalin

climber
Truckee, CA
Jun 1, 2013 - 03:40am PT
Jesus effin christ, it reeks of buttsex in here.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Jun 1, 2013 - 09:25am PT
open yer window
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 24, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
Of course, there is no justification for taking a child from their parents


http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-0602-lopez-gabriel-20130602,0,114921.column

latimes.com

An abused boy is dead at age 8, and again we ask how it happened
Gabriel Fernandez's mother and boyfriend are not the only ones who will have to answer for his death.

by Steve Lopez

=
He was 8 years old.

That's a great age for most kids. They're curious, innocent, full of life.

But Gabriel Fernandez of Palmdale was in a living hell, by official accounts, and had stopped breathing when paramedics arrived at his home on May 22.

His skull was fractured in two places. Two ribs were broken. Teeth had been knocked out or possibly yanked out. BB pellets were embedded in his lung. His skin had been burned.

It's a horrific, stomach-turning level of abuse, as detailed Friday in a Page One story by my colleague Garrett Therolf, and it's impossible to understand how anyone could do that to a child.

Two days after he was hospitalized, Gabriel died. His mother, Pearl Fernandez, and her boyfriend, Isauro Aguirre, were charged with murder and torture. Aguirre told authorities he had beaten Gabriel on numerous occasions "for lying and being dirty," according to authorities.

If they're guilty, I can't think of a penalty too severe. But the mother and boyfriend are not the only ones who will have to answer for Gabriel's death.

The L.A. County Department of Children and Family Services, with a long string of shocking failures in the deaths of children, is in the middle of this one, too. The agency left Gabriel in his mother's care despite six allegations of abuse over the last decade involving Gabriel and other children.

And we're not talking about scant evidence that Gabriel was in danger.

Caught up in a family dispute over his guardianship, Gabriel was taken from relatives last October by his mother. Immediately afterward, Gabriel's teacher reported that the boy had facial bruising and said his mother had struck him with a belt buckle and punched him in the stomach.

A month later, the same teacher said Gabriel came to school with a "busted lip" and claimed his mother had punched him.

In January of this year, the teacher reported that Gabriel's face was swollen and bruised and he said his mother had shot him in the face with a BB gun.

In March, a therapist reported that Gabriel might have been sexually assaulted by a relative, and that he had indicated he might kill himself.

Eight years old, and this poor child was thinking about suicide.

And what was Family Services doing all the while?

Not nearly enough.

Some of the allegations couldn't be substantiated by caseworkers, and Gabriel recanted some of his own statements. But how hard could it have been to connect the dots?

There's no indication that anyone from Family Services considered the totality of the allegations, or gave enough consideration to the fact that Gabriel's mother had a criminal record and a history of gang involvement and substance abuse.

A confidential internal review of the case found evidence of multiple failures on the part of department employees. Among other problems, the review found that "the case plan was inadequate," the department "did not complete required visits," an investigation was closed "despite no resolution to problems," there was inadequate or no contact with other family members, and that Gabriel was not interviewed in a neutral location, away from those who might influence his answers.

All of that is inexcusable. So is the fact that at the time of Gabriel's death, one abuse allegation had not yet been resolved, and the social worker on the case "made minimal attempts to investigate," according to the review.

So what did Family Services Director Philip Browning do about all of this?

He put four employees on desk duty pending further review.

Desk duty? You mean they're still on the job and getting paid to make decisions about children's lives?

I would have had a different assignment for them and anyone else who touched this case: Leave the building immediately. Depending on their level of involvement, I would have fired them or suspended them without pay while the review continues. And I would have lined all their supervisors up against the wall and ordered them to explain how there could have been such a catastrophic breakdown.

Sure, these are difficult jobs and thousands of kids are at risk at any time. And although Family Services employees do a lot of good and even heroic work under difficult circumstances, some children will die because their own relatives are monsters.

But Gabriel Fernandez is dead despite overwhelming evidence that he was in peril for months, if not longer. And a recent review of the department found that in 15 other cases where a child died, nobody was fired despite "egregious errors" by department staff.

Maybe this leniency is why Browning is having so much trouble changing the "culture" of the department, as he's been trying to do in his 15 months on the job. By some accounts, he's made some headway, and in an interview Friday he laid out several ways in which he's trying to establish more "common sense, critical thinking and accountability."

"It defies my imagination how someone could not have seen this coming," Browning said. But then he began to couch it, saying that "Monday morning quarterbacking is very easy" and the "culture can't be changed overnight and it can't be changed in a year or two."

Nonsense. Just tell people to do their jobs, and crack down on them when they don't.

If Browning can't get the job done soon, the Board of Supervisors — which ultimately is responsible for this long-running nightmare — should find a replacement.

At 2:52 p.m. on May 24, Gabriel Fernandez of Palmdale was pronounced dead.

He was 8 years old.

Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jun 24, 2013 - 03:06pm PT
Of course, there is no justification for taking a child from their parents

And nobody here has ever said that, Ken.

Except you, in your strawman arguments.



rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 24, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
i would say there are PLENTY of good reasons to take children away from their parents


and among them would be a parent whos states publically "there is no reason to ever take a child away from his parents!"




thats a person whos obvious mind f*#king his kids and insuring they will be warped and twisted by the time they reach adulthood

theres lots of programs to help such miserable adults

and they can still see their kids at monitored visitation while their getting their bare minimum decency recertified

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 25, 2013 - 11:28am PT
And nobody here has ever said that, Ken.

Except you, in your strawman argument

Strawman?

Didn't you read the article? That was an actual, not a virtual, 8 y/o child
that died.

You still seem totally opposed to the concept: when in doubt, protect the child FIRST, then figure things out.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jun 25, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
Of course, there is no justification for taking a child from their parents

Apparently, they don't teach logic in medical school: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Ken, please point out where I made the claim that "there is no justification for taking a child from their parents."

You are being sensationalist and mis-representing my words. That is the strawman.

It is dishonest.
TMJesse

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Jun 25, 2013 - 01:10pm PT
CPS case against Nikolayev family dismissed

http://www.news10.net/news/article/248770/2/CPS-case-against-Nikolayev-family-dismissed?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Cbc%7Clarge

"After the hearing, Nikolayev attorney Joe Weinberger announced he intends to file the lawsuit in the coming days. In a release, Weinberger wrote, "no longer shackled by the anonymity and the disclosure prohibitions of the Dependency Court, Anna and Alex will shine the bright light of truth on these illegal activities."
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 3, 2013 - 06:41am PT
MADISON, Wis. -- A mother and father who prayed instead of seeking medical help as their daughter died in front of them were properly convicted of homicide, the Wisconsin Supreme Court ruled Wednesday.

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2013/07/03/5542198/court-upholds-parents-convictions.html#storylink=cpy

This ought to give faith healers some pause. If you kill someone through prayer you are going to pay a severe price.

Amen.

DMT
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jul 3, 2013 - 06:57am PT
Hey DMT, do you know what a Mongolian spot is?


Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 3, 2013 - 07:16am PT
Ken, please point out where I made the claim that "there is no justification for taking a child from their parents."

You are being sensationalist and mis-representing my words. That is the strawman.

It is dishonest.

Ah, but you are not representing what you said, YOU stated that NOBODY said....

That is YOUR strawman. You then take my broad statement to mean you, personally. I assure you that I don't.

But when you represent everyone who has posted, then you take ownership of it all, crazy as it may be.

You appear to have gotten lost from the original post. A situation where there is uncertainty about the safety of a child. What do you do?

I say the state has a responsibility to act on behalf of the safety of the child, until clarity is established. What do you advocate?
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jul 3, 2013 - 07:29am PT
Ken, you have no f*#king clue what a "strawman argument" is.

It does not simply mean "something made up" - it has very specific meaning.

And you have apparently mastered it.

A situation where there is uncertainty about the safety of a child.

Do you understand the distinction between reasonable uncertainty and clueless incompetence?

There was NO evidence of abuse in this case.

There was ample evidence that the parents were actively seeking medical care for the child.

"The state," which you apparently trust without question, just did not want to bother.

A simple phone call to the parents could have avoided this nightmare. Instead, some bureaucrat decided to go home for the day and let the cops deal with it.

"So what if some baby gets yanked from his mother's arms and spends a few days in some undisclosed location. We can sort it all out on Monday..."

I say the state has a responsibility to act on behalf of the safety of the child, until clarity is established. What do you advocate?

Hey, it looks like you have mastered the false choice as well!

Keep up those logical fallacies, good doctor!
Messages 1 - 369 of total 369 in this topic
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews