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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jun 21, 2006 - 01:37pm PT
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John Long (aka Largo) one of the original Stonemasters and masterful writer has penned a fine piece about the Stonemasters in the last edition of Rock & Ice. It pretty much says it all.
If you are really curious about the subject, read the article -- it will answer your questions and give you an insight I sincerely doubt can be matched through posts on this thread.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 21, 2006 - 01:40pm PT
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Yes that was pretty funny ROX and fairly right on.
I'll have to spool up on this one Lois.
Keep in mind the core Stonemasters was a small tight knit group and in many ways represented the cream; ROX is correct insofar as many others were essentially striving and doing neat stuff in the same manner.
I was influenced but not core, as I am just now soon to be 46, started climbing in '73, but really began to hit my stride in '77.
More later.
I'll post the Stonemasters link in the forum as well.
Sketch is pretty much correct.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jun 21, 2006 - 01:52pm PT
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Also, remember that the stonemasters were, are, just one group of loosely granfalloned climbers. Albeit a high profile and influential one. All groups are influenced by their times and available personnel.
There are many local scenes at any time, most don't have names, but there are always aggregations of climbers living some version of the Itinerant climber life style.
See; The Poway Mtn Boys, DLFA, Vulgarians, the Kachinas and the Banditos, just to name a few such groups ...
Tangentially, there are also more formal groups like The CMC, Iowa mtneers, AAC, The RCS of the Sierra club, Harvard mtneers ad nauseum, which can at times, be influential as well.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Jun 21, 2006 - 01:58pm PT
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Jaybro, don't forget Craig Frys "Sheep Buggerers", perhaps the most important group after the Stonemasters.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 21, 2006 - 01:59pm PT
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hahahha!
Mussy,
Craig should be so proud.
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the Fet
climber
Earth
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Jun 21, 2006 - 02:17pm PT
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Here's my post from the Lynn thread.
LEB wrote "5. What was it about this era and this particular group which made you so unique and garner such a place in "history" as it were. Obviously there were men who climbed before you in the 40s 50s 60s - Obviously men (and now women, even!) climbed after you 80s, 90s etc. So what was it then which gave you all such fame and "grandeur?" How exactly did you garner this lore which now seems to surround you regarding those time."
There were a number of eras important in Yosemite climbing history. The Stonemaster era is just more prevalant here (and is also probably the last "age" that had a disctintive local group of high caliber climbers, who often lived in the Valley).
Here is my biased summation:
The 1930s bringing modern roped climbing, and ascents like Royal Arches and Higher Cathedral Spire.
The 1940s Further refinement of big wall climbing and ethics, Lost Arrow Chimney, Steck-Salathe route.
The 1950s to 1960s (The Golden Age) The most impressive walls first done, Half Dome, El Capitan, and an increased move towards free climbing goals.
The 1970s (Stonemasters). Even more free climbing at an amazing new level. First free ascents on previous aid climbs (Astroman) and in a day ascents of big walls (The Nose).
The 1980s. Lycra and sport climbing come about. A little bit of climbing's soul dies. LOL. But Bachar and Croft do The Nose and Half Dome in a day.
The 90s and beyond. diversification, bouldering, hard aid. First Free ascent of the Nose and more.
They are all standing on the shoulders of giants. Each generation is inspired by the previous one.
There are some good books on other eras (e.g. Camp 4 about the golden age). But my favorite book is The Vertical World of Yosemite by Rowell. Articles and photos from many great ascents starting with the second ascent of Half Dome in 1884 and ending at the end of the Golden Age in the early 1970s.
As I mentioned earlier, I'd love to see Largo dedicate a whole book to the Stonemasters, ala Camp 4.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 21, 2006 - 02:20pm PT
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So you see Lois,
With Looking Sketchy and Jaybro's comments, "The Stonemasters" indeed circumscribes a particular set of individuals. As I stated earlier in our discussions about Yabo, I was not a Stonemaster per se, but picked up on their heels and had direct opportunity of influence. I bet you could boil that actual original Stonemaster group down to about 20 or so people.
You've sort of walked into a tribal dynamic and will find some protectionist measures at play, which is perhaps appropriate to the actors at hand and their specific contributions and alliances.
If you look at gang culture, they have many tight knit and intertwined groups, all sharing similar styles but with unique apsects which may or may not strictly define them as independent groups, depending upon your criteria.
The life style in general bares a common thread and aspects of that can be adressed by many of us.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jun 21, 2006 - 02:21pm PT
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I started in 1980, so lets refer to the 80's as the Juanmaster's.
We got fire shoes, and Valhalla was never the same again.
I cannot imagine doing Ten Carrots with EB's.
Juan
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jun 21, 2006 - 02:27pm PT
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"Sheep Buggerers"
hmm? there was a group with that M.O. out of Pinedale, climbed with "Pablo and the First Ascents," what Was that guy's name ...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 21, 2006 - 02:32pm PT
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Jay,
Sheep Buggerers is a group which Russ championed, or not, as the case may be depending on what that leads to...
They were LA boys.
Russ is nattily throwing Craig under the bus with them to get his goat!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jun 21, 2006 - 02:45pm PT
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Baaaaaaahhhh
I knew that.
I was sort of, equally disingenuously, comparing speed bumpee's.
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AKDOG
Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
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Jun 21, 2006 - 02:50pm PT
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Wasn't Craig Fry the leader of the Sheepbuggers? Or did he just supply them with booze and weed so he could boulder with them.
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todd-gordon
climber
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Jun 21, 2006 - 03:30pm PT
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Cry Fry didn't supple booze or weed to no flunkies. Cry did his own thing, and dragged anyone else along who could keep up with him.. He was always ready to lead anything, put up new routes on the lead too. If you didn't climb or hike fast enough or good enough, Cry was impatient. He was super motivated, super talented, strong and bold........(He's a mellow tame pussycat now-a-days.....). He didn't have anything to do with the Sheepbuggerers.....who were a bunch of immature, loud, stick-fighting, bunkweed-smoking, rude, obnoxious, sophomoric, junior college-type, B-Team, dirty, young, silly, dweebs/doofus L.A. climbers who never had girl-friends,....were always at the crags, doing something noisy, stinky, rude, dangerous, and out-there.....the types you would NOT want your daughter hanging out with.........good climbers... but climbing with them was like hanging out with a bunch of junior high boys at a sleep-over.
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Jun 21, 2006 - 04:38pm PT
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the Mayor/diaper changer in charge, narced on Russ and his crew LOL
"Sheepbuggerers.....who were a bunch of immature, loud, stick-fighting, bunkweed-smoking, rude, obnoxious, sophomoric, junior college-type, B-Team, dirty, young, silly, dweebs/doofus L.A. climbers who never had girl-friends,....were always at the crags, doing something noisy, stinky, rude, dangerous, and out-there.....the types you would NOT want your daughter hanging out with.."
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Jun 21, 2006 - 04:42pm PT
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Just sour grapes. There was a rule that we had ( I mean Craig had ) that there were no bald guys allowed in the dashingly handsome group. Sadly, Todd was out before he was ever in.
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Jun 21, 2006 - 05:14pm PT
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How did Watusi stay in that group?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 21, 2006 - 08:17pm PT
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Now Shorty T,
You have to have your league of Post Stonemaster Denizens in order to explain the Watusi.
He was the great white hope, or thinning red headed hope you might say, of the esteemed Scumbags, a ship which listed gracefully to port side at warp speed, much to the credit of BVB's fine work at the helm...
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AKDOG
Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
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Jun 21, 2006 - 08:45pm PT
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I am pretty sure Fry was one of the Sheepbuggers; I can remember him driving around the hidden valley loop in his VW van braying like a sheep. I think Rob Raker may have straightened him out in the early 80’s and told him to go to college so he could find work taking water and air samples or something like that.
Gordon maybe you knew Fry after he turned his life around.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 22, 2006 - 12:50am PT
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That's a good start Lois, the 70's as a sea change and climbing responding in kind; a reasonable inference.
I have yet to read John's Stonemaster article; I'll get to it.
Have fun with your reading list!
Then we'll gab some more.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jun 22, 2006 - 01:14am PT
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Stonemasters = Bums?
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 22, 2006 - 01:17am PT
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No, bums do nothing ......
There were a lot of successful Stonemasters.
Quit being so Juanish, Juan.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jun 22, 2006 - 01:18am PT
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"MANY of our guys are bipolar. I may be. I self-medicate (?) and my wife tells me I am naturally bitchy and depressive and she IS qualified to say so. Depression is NOT uncommon among us. Suicide is a preferred way for a bunch of us."
Thats my typical day in the last few years.
Juan
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jun 22, 2006 - 02:28am PT
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Man 'o' man. Nice input all.
Who are you, really, Lois? I choose to take you at your word, and you deny being a troll, but your gill net provides the largest harvest;
1) this thread,
2) Dingus' recent explanation of mtnering taxonomy and
3) (and foremost)the recent Ed and Roger show of a few months ago that explained what climbing is, why you can fall and keep going, what 'free' means and why the Castanada sh#t is big with us and all in a way more articulate and erudite way than anything that has EVER been in print, and you're still pimping us and will, no doubt get even more stuff, straight from the font.
If you really are my age and live where you say you do (down the road from woodstock)you've got a few clues about the seventies already, and can appreciate the fractal nature of our part of the world.
So, good on Ya!!!!!!! I really do take you at your word, and think you have no idea how good a troll you are.
Maybe, as a diagnostician, it goes with the territory.
I anxiously await what you will uncover next. Personally, I suggest you probe Offwidth. Largo left a trailmarker (paisano) some of us had to deal with,as did Haan, Dr E, and a bunch of others, but what was the deal with John Garson??
You are our Holmes.
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Jun 22, 2006 - 02:38am PT
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Leb there were a few guys who lived in Idyllwild who were not the "Cor" But we lived it every day. Bruce Foster's name does not get battered around here much. or Fred East or Greg Thill. At one point I remember Clifford from the MT store was mentioned. There are more.
But the truth be told my favorite memories was sitting at the base of suicide smoking bong loads.
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todd-gordon
climber
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Jun 22, 2006 - 02:39am PT
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Bald head my bald ass.......all you needed was a high school education, a stick to poke someone in the ass with, a pine cone to hit someone in the face with, booze that you stole from your parents liquor cabinet, thrift store garb, a $200.00 V.W. , a rack of hexes and stoppers and a few cams, and you were a sheep-buggerer......I've been called immature before, but these guys are textbook.......guys like Fry (and myself) weren't part of THAT clan......Fry was WAY too grown-up for their antics..(And you already heard about my bald head...).....their sheep-buggerer call could be heard at the crags and in the still desert evening.....usually from an under-age drinking fool, moments before he tossed his cookies....(All this is captured with a camera.....)......These were the guys (and I DO say guys... it was a sausage-fest)......that really pissed off the climbers who worked out, didn't party, and took their climbing "seriously".......for the nasty sheep-bugerers would usually out-climb the "athletes" almost everytime.......they were a sorry product of bad judgement, underage drinking, too much time on their hands, and sperm-buildup.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 22, 2006 - 03:02am PT
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I've very much enjoyed reading this thread, and all the Stonemaster stories threads. (Not quite finished.) Thank you to all who've contributed.
I began climbing at Squamish in the 1970s, and there are some parallels between the origin and culture and evolution of the Stonemasters, and what we had in Squamish. I'll save those stories for another thread. As a visitor to the Valley in the 1970s, I had a little contact with the Stonemasters, and those stories may better fit, though not tonight.
Our history and stories (not always the same thing) are a big part of our community, and something I'm quite interested in.
A sociologist or anthropologist might find some interesting parallels between climbers' cultures, and those in hunter-gatherer and perhaps other societies. I don't know a lot about such things, but it is interesting that many climber sub-cultures seem to involve 15 - 20 core individuals, with defined admittance rituals, a periphery of aspirants, regular tests of hardihood, leadership by proven ability, and fairly egalitarian standards. The group is part of the larger group (tribe, clan, whatever), but at the same time emphasizes its distinctiveness. It's also an adolescent male thing, or even rite of passage - bearing in mind delayed adolescence in our societies.
It would have been fascinating had some social "scientist" done a baseline study of climbers at Camp 4 in the 1970s, and followed up from time to time. All the usual stuff - family, pyschological profile, intelligence, education, and so on. Are climbers truly different as individuals or a community, and if so how and why? It might be possible now, but as climbing is much more mainstream, and risk-averse, it might not be as informative.
Anders
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Jun 22, 2006 - 03:08am PT
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Todd you certainly were there. you have said it the best.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 22, 2006 - 10:00am PT
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get 'im lois!
ok just kidding.
i think what jay is getting at, is something you patently answered, meaning your approach as an ordered interlocutor and an outsider elicites in depth and objective responses from us, which come out in an unguarded and thoughtfull manner. that's not how we typically interact on the forum. we typically play grab ass.
to troll is also to assume a stance which is an affectation. to respond to a troll is to buy into it. in this case, in responding to your querries, we are out of necessity prompted to work outside of our ordinary lexicon and set of tacit agreements and collective assumptions.
so you draw us out, which is also an aspect of trolling.
but there is no malice and no joke.
it's fun, just like a good class.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 22, 2006 - 10:41am PT
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Lois, we take you at face value and our responses are crafted as we interpret you questions to be. But we wouldn't be responding unless you asked, or baited the hook... as in your "diatribe" above, which could go off in the direction "what was the '70's anyway?" It is hard to believe you lived it, at least as our roughly SoCal experience would prepare us to believe... On the otherhand, the "'70's" was not the same in otherparts of the country as it was in Cali (and the west).
But there I go again, actually trying to answer your question and taking your bait and careening off topic again.
The "Stonemasters" were one group of many in the '70's. At the time, it would be hard to predict who we'd be talking about in the '00's, 30 years later. Many of us were independent of our parents very early (looking back on it) in our lives, either because of one too many parental stories of independence ("when I was you age, I...") or inability to support or coexist, or just plain striking out on our own. That happened in a lot of areas, climbing just one, the "Stonemasters" just a single group there.
I was not a Stonemaster, I grew up in Claremont CA during that time period, I bouldered around Mt. Baldy and Rubidoux, climbed at Tahquitz (but not Suicide) and the Valley, probably could have driven down Foothill Blvd. and met up with John Long, et al.. But they were the shitz then, and I sort of knew about them, but never engaged.
Travelling "dirtbag" to Yosemite was typical of youth at that time, not just the Stonemasters. Starving, climbing, and all that was a part of growing up, our expectations were not that we would be provided for, but that we would figure something out. Many of us could go home if it didn't work out, but many of us could not.
Compared to the philosophy surrounding kids today, it is hard to believe that all of our parents weren't arrested for child endangerment, but they believed in us to some extent, and even though they knew the world was not always our "hippie utopia" they also knew we had to learn how to cope with reality... so we went out and figured it out. The casualties seem worse, but I am not sure that the current crop of kids do not suffer at the same rate in their cohort.
Kids are still the same, somewhere in the early teens they think they are adults. In many ways they are, they can procreate... we were kicked out of the house, in many instances, because we would not socialize. So we created our own societies... the Stonemasters is an example of that, but not unique, just a different milieu.
In the end, the Stonemasters are notable in the '00's because of the climbing accomplishments of its members, and the strength of their vision, which can still be experienced in places like Yosemite Valley. Many of the members, and satellite members, are still active and contributing, trying to teach the younger generation what worked and what did not, in forming a society as much as in climbing.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jun 22, 2006 - 10:59am PT
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what they said
There is no rule that a troll can't use their powers for good!
I define 'Troll" a little more widely than you do. More to do with cause and affect than mean intent, though that counts too.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jun 22, 2006 - 11:38am PT
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LEB-
Watch Cliffhanger, it's 'loosely' based on the Stonemaster experience and will provide several answers to the q's you posit...(premise by John Long).
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OldEric
Trad climber
Westboro, MA
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Jun 22, 2006 - 12:39pm PT
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For those who take LEB at face value - call me - I can get you an incredble deal on a bridge in Brooklyn
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Jun 22, 2006 - 12:43pm PT
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Hmmmm, climbing, drugs, rock and roll. I never knew if I was a Stonemaster back when there really were Stonemasters. I climbed with them all, I climbed hard like they did, I climbed almost every day, but somehow I did not fit in as well as some others. I was a few years older, already out of college and with a job so I never did the whole summers in the valley/meadows thing. So I guess I was a part-time Stonemaster. However, I spent all my time with some of them. Most went to school and worked and saved so that they could spend all summer in the valley. But every weekend was spent at the rocks.
More than anything it was a passion (one I still live, thankfully) for climbing. We embraced this new ethic of clean climbing (no pitons) and continually pushed the difficulty up. The fact that there were few of us really made it a group thing and I think that is the difference from today. Nowdays there are so many climbers that you don't get the same dynamic. Then there were maybe 30 people at Josh/Suicide every weekend and we climbed together and pushed each other every day. And we got stoned together every day and every night. We became a community. We were all pretty different than the average American and we knew it. We were PROUD of it! Most of us still are.
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Grug
Trad climber
Golden, Colorado
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Jun 22, 2006 - 12:45pm PT
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Watch the first part of Ace Ventura, Pet Detective; When Nature Calls...it's loosely based on Cliffhanger. Althought Sly is pretty funny without trying, JIm Carrey is flat-out hilarious. "You know, you could poke somebody's EYE out with that thing!"
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Hootervillian
climber
the Hooterville World-Guardian
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Jun 22, 2006 - 12:57pm PT
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LOL.
BumbleBeeTuna rockjock.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 22, 2006 - 01:51pm PT
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If you troll at a high intellectual level then you will catch high intellect responses...
...if you do it at a low level, then you get the commensurate response.
As we all know, we don't have to respond to a troll, we choose, and we also choose the way to do it.
There is no relevance for the question who, what or why the avatar LEB. The dialog is the only relevant issue. (Sounds like neomodernist deconstruction).
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jun 22, 2006 - 02:00pm PT
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Hmmm? Sounds almost Mcluhan-esque.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 22, 2006 - 02:54pm PT
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Hey Ed, did you catch the nice compliment that Jaybro paid to us? Thanks, Jay.
I don't remember what that thread was all about--didn't it all start with Lois asking about alternative reality and getting it all mixed up with dope, sex, and rock and roll? Or was it 'A Separate Reality.' Then Ed got into a snit because he wanted to hear about ‘Separate Reality’ and Lois was doing her not trolling--thank you very much--thing, by which she means that if she were going to troll then she would have to have an alternative understanding of the term, and she is sincere by which she means that she is not insincere, and she is really interested which means she is not a troll, and has bone fides to prove it if it comes to that because she can explain it all so concretely and as is clear to anyone that no self respecting real troll would assume that it would all get read, quod erat demonstrandum, (but I was a little shocked to be told that Lois had morays with her boyfriends in the 1970s)....
And, I think Werner helped out on the Multiple Realities thread by telling everyone--I mean EVERYONE--on the web that we all got up climbs through a secret door, that wasn't so secret since all climbers know it is there.
Stonemasters my eye--SecertDoorMasters is closer to the truth. Which is one anwer to Lois' question, I guess. I always wondered why those guys climbed so much harder than the rest of us. Hey, Mike or Werner, why didn't you tell me about the door thing?
PS: Lois, I'm not a 'Stonemaster.' But, I am teasing you about your not-trolling protestations--reminds me of a line from Hamlet.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 22, 2006 - 03:29pm PT
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Roger, I got the compliment that Jay offered us...
and you are right that I was a bit pissed off at LEB for being so utterly clueless regarding a famous climb... but feeling the right to be utterly clueless and insisting on that right. The only alternative was to actually post something of quality responding to LEB's ignorance on climbing matters, or descend into mud slinging a la SNL "Jane you stupid slut" point-counterpoint sort of thing.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jun 22, 2006 - 03:53pm PT
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This is too funny! And the kind of stuff that would get lost in a divided forum.
I was also complimenting Lois, though she didn't take it that way, I guess. If you can ask those pithy, though seemingly guiless questions in that innocent Columbo-like (or the inspector in Crime & Punishement [same guy,btw]) way and inspire people to explain and illustrate in the way that you guys did, that is a good thing.
Wish I could do it!
I await your next collaboration.
Jay-onsightedSeperaterealityintheieghtiesandwaspartofthepossiblyfirstteamto
experienceaYaquibasedseperatrealityontopofdevil's
towerafewyearsearlier-bro
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scuffy b
climber
Chalet Neva-Care
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Jun 22, 2006 - 04:12pm PT
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I thought I had a Jaybro sighting the other eve but then I thought "There's no way that guy's feet are getting into 39
Mythos, No Way"
El Rayo-X Tshirt, specs, hairline etc.
By the Way, the road to Ebola is open now.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 22, 2006 - 07:35pm PT
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simple enough lois,
i enjoy gabbing with you.
there is an upgraded filter at play when conversing with an outsider and that helps to clarify things. i enjoy healthy conjectural discourse; so on my end this is a fascinating and productive two way street.
i am cheerfully working on an enthusiastically detailed response to the original questions you posed and hope to have some thoughts together in a wee bit.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 22, 2006 - 07:39pm PT
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Perhaps I missed it, but I was wondering if LEB might tell us a little about herself, and why she's so curious about our community. Placing the EB, so to speak, on the other foot.
Anders
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 22, 2006 - 08:01pm PT
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Lois - you have been accepted as a part of the ST Forum community... if you had not you would have suffered the same fate as Raj did, in terms of response to your posts. So it isn't default, you've been around for a year both because you remain interested and because we respond to your interests.
It's mutual...
I guess we like your posts too.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 22, 2006 - 08:47pm PT
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Thanks, Lois. I hadn't considered what might be the applicable behavioural norms - although I may not subscribe to them in any case. I wasn't being snoopy. I was just curious about why you're curious - I thought you might have a professional or academic interest, or something of the sort.
With the anonymity and pen names that abound on forums, it's difficult to know anything about contributors.
I'm fairly new to the SuperTopo forum, and indeed forums in general, and will gladly learn about etiquette. There are some interesting and intelligent people involved. It's always nice to learn about those in your community, and sometimes helpful. Though as you rightly mention, not everyone is interested in hearing our life histories, nor is it always wise to tell them.
Anders (real given name, male, 49, climber since 1971 - Chris Mc. kindly shifted my user ID from my proper name to Mighty Hiker, a boy scout nickname)
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jun 22, 2006 - 09:10pm PT
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Stonedmasters?
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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Jun 22, 2006 - 10:03pm PT
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Well LEB, I must say thanks for sticking around this bunch. Even though I next to never engage, you definitely succeed in getting some interesting conversations started. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds it fascinating that you would be so fascinated by the lives of folks around here.
I'm sure you've stated it a thousand times, but would you mind once again stating how you happened across this forum? What subject(s) got you hooked? Are you SURE you are not going to write a book or something about this strange subculture?
If this has all been clearly outlined in another thread, can someone please provide the link, 'cause I find it impossible to keep up... and I know it's OT.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jun 22, 2006 - 10:33pm PT
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"there *is* something to be said about asking interesting questions so as to get people to talk about the fascinating aspects of their lives."
-Agreed, I think that is why we are all here. Maybe it's just my midwestern, fishing out of the back of a boat, background. As early as 1960, I can remember my mom using the phrase,"Trolling for advice." In my paradigm, not uncommmon in the Southern Chicago area of the late 60's, a well crafted question, designed to manipulate/inspire an informative well thought out response, has long been reffered to as 'A troll", as in "That's the answer I was trolling for."
Lois, I think it is a very good thing that you have been able to get some remarkable answers to many of your questions. I tried to express my appreciation of this. I'm sorry you took it in a perjorative sense. You add a lot to this forum and I'm glad you are here, as I have said many times over the last year.
Please, keep asking the questions and call the process whatever you want, great stuff often comes from questions it might not occur to the reader to ask.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 22, 2006 - 10:41pm PT
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OK: Here are the questions which Lois asked, with my answers:
(This is an excellent set of questions Lois and I am more than happy to oblige. I find it fun!)
“Tell me something, Tarbuster, how exactly did you all support yourselves during this great climbing era of yours during the 70s”
This in fact varied widely Lois, although if a generality were to be ventured, I’d say we supported ourselves through a pairing of minimalism and seasonal work:
Minimalism- The less you worked to provide the necessities, the more energy you had to devote to the climbing itself. This meant pairing back needs. We needed some gear, some food, some transportation. Often these items were pooled and shared to reduce the burden of acquisition.
Seasonal Work- with a minimalist ethic in place to reduce the overall work output, seasonal or project oriented work could be leveraged to provide blocks of time to climb and train on a daily basis and in a very spontaineous and unfettered way.
Many of us worked construction, painted houses and the like. A schoolteacher could pull off summers yes, but a lot of us tried to go 6-9 months without working. Some worked as rough necks on the oil rigs of Wyoming (very dangerous). Salmon fishing is another.
”1. How many of you were there in this now famous "group"”
This phenomenon was happening in Colorado and on the East Coast, and in Canada, so not all my answers will be limited to the Stonemaster group, which were primarily, but not limited to California based climbers.
I am going to start in on this one by deferring to *John Long’s* recent post on the Lynn Hill Thread, because he said it so well and underscored a very interesting point to boot:
*The Stonemasters were unique because they helped spawn a community wide stoke for adventure not seen before or since. It is probably true that said stoke rippled out from a core group like so many seismic waves, but everyone touched by the energy added some of their own so the movement was very much a group effort shared by all. That was the thing--everyone with a pair of shoes was invited to participate because back then we were all on the A Train. People like Roy (Tarbuster) say they were not core Stonemasters but that’s news to me. Once folks started to individualize the Stonemasters as their own gig, the gig was basically over.*
*Nobody owned it. Everyone owned it.*
*JL*
Now this is a very enlightened and egalitarian position. A prime feature is the open source attitude which John espouses here. As soon as you exclude another or exclude yourself, it begins to break down. Yes this happened. But all movements reach critical mass, then begin to either transmute or succumb to entropy via a variety of conditions, often as a direct consequence of growth.
”2. Were you all about the same age and from the same area e.g. S California”
Primarily we are talking teens and twenties.
The Stonemasters originated in SO Cal, but I’d say it was the collusion with prime players in Yosemite Valley which really provided a synergistic boost to the ideas, projects, and drives of the Stonemasters.
Certainly there were other very powerful groups in Colorado and on the East Coast and there was some cross pollination. We Californians knew of the other protagonists and they knew of us. Yosemite was a melting pot. Colorado was a hub, Fort Collins, Boulder, and Colorado Springs in Particular. The Shawangunks of New York, Cathedral Ledge of New Hampshire were prime East Coast hubs. Squamish in Canada. There were others, but these were prime. Climbers were building collective legacies in the hubs, then traveling and submitting themselves to the proving grounds extant in the other 4 geographic cultures.
Then there was Europe: Great Britain had a tremendously robust and bold rock climbing culture. There was massive rock in the Dolomites, rock and snow in the French Alps and Bernese Oberland and much more. Patagonia in S America, Kichatna Spires in Alaska. These places were something of a grail as well for the Rockclimber.
Travel was encouraged and sought: it prevented myopia. It tested and inspired a high standard cultivated by the adept.
”3. Was this just a summer thing or did you folks do so all year round - if so where did the money come from?”
“4. Approximately when did all of this take place? Was this a full time "thing" you all did when you actually did it.”
In one sense it was year round, even during periods of work most of us climbed on the weekend; notwithstanding of course a blitzkrieg like work stint in some place affording nothing besides work. Like oil derricks, salmon boats or the like. Sometimes it was best to focus on intense work periods, and then get back into the stream of climbing.
Southern Californians had Joshua Tree to do winter climbing, along with some local crags and boulders (Stoney Point, Rubidoux in the greater LA and San Bernadino areas respectively). Each of the four hubs, California, Colorado, East Coast, and Squamish had their bouldering or training areas where you did not live at but typically commuted to from work.
When I got really into it in the mid seventies, it was understood that the goal was to climb spring through fall. If possible we added full or partial winter seasons in Joshua Tree. A guy I know who started out in the sixties here in Boulder where I now live, essentially described the same thing to me just a couple days ago and of course it is well known: even in the late sixties he spent spring in Eldorado Canyon in Colorado to warm up, late spring in Yosemite, summer in the Tetons and Bugaboos of Canada, Fall in the Gunks of New York. Maybe toss in Devils Tower Wyoming, Needles of South Dakota, Black Canyon or some other sweet destinations. That’s a good circuit and it takes cunning, resources, and frugality to pull it off.
"AND MOST IMPORTANTLY!!!!!"
"5. What was it about this era and this particular group which made you so unique and garner such a place in "history" as it were. Obviously there were men who climbed before you in the 40s 50s 60s - Obviously men (and now women, even!) climbed after you 80s, 90s etc. So what was it then which gave you all such fame and "grandeur?" How exactly did you garner this lore which now seems to surround you regarding those time."
This is a big factor in my mind as it is attended by a number of things which we might guess influenced the explosive growth and appetite for full time climbing.
Let me start by characterizing the aura of the whole lifestyle. This was about a sense of urgency to do something special. It was about mystery, myth, adventure, and discovery. We were trying to put ourselves out there in such a way that we honored the laudable human legacies which preceded us and likewise blaze new paths of our own.
To take a stab at the unique circumstances:
The beat generation, to my mind was the seed and it illuminated the bohemian tact, which was a good foundation for exploration, experimentation, and the leveraging of alternative avenues of expression. The sixties pulled the lid off post war prosperity and perhaps bled out some pent up aspects of ennui or routine and restlessness. The 70’s followed with a great explosion of outdoor activity, enhanced by the Ecology Movement.
The great climbers of the 50’s and 60’s had pioneered many routes, but done so often in a very perfunctory fashion; banging in pitons and standing on them when expedient. Deep Ecology had a big influence, along with that was spawned this whole “Clean Climbing” ethos, which gave the climbers of the 70’s their unique challenge, to climb with less weight, less impact, and in better style. So the free climbing generation was really not so much born there, because the prior greats were excellent free climbers, even with pitons, but the reign of the nut was really the province of the 70’s and it gave us new meaning and new challenge: free climbing in pure style, things which had previously been done with direct aid.
Then we had a flourishing national media boom in general, with climbing following suit with some good magazines to disseminate information.
To my mind, these are major synergistic factors which really allowed things to blossom in the seventies Lois.
”Also for the sake of the unenlightened amongst us (like me!) can you tell us (me) more about this whole thing.”
My arms are tired Lois, I need to add some memory to my computer and then my system resources will better handle my voice activated software.
Thanks for asking the questions!
Cheers,
Roy.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 22, 2006 - 10:56pm PT
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Hahahahaha LOL this is so funny .......
Lois, They are not pissed at you but more in frustration sometimes.
Sometimes they don't think things out to well and have these fast knee jerk reactions to your questions and responses. Sometimes it takes awhile to see where you are going for them. Sometimes people here automatically assume everyone here is a climber with the knowledgeable basics. You like to pick their brains to see where the core of their soul is really at. I do too. The surface only reveals very little. It's Ok, just keep on trucking ,,,,,
But! there is the fact that you are honest, trust worthy and have integrity that alone transcends all your limitations on this forum.
You can type at the speed some people talk makes your post as such.
Well round people such as you are a rarity, especially here.
And Roger, you are StoneMaster.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 22, 2006 - 11:06pm PT
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Hi Werner,
Having a nice day?
”Also for the sake of the unenlightened amongst us (like me!) can you tell us (me) more about this whole thing.”
One aspect that bears a strong underline here Lois, is the force of community.
By the end of the seventies and early eighties I would show up each spring in Yosemite and I knew there were 30/40 people with whom I could share grand adventures.
John Long, John Bachar, Werner Braun, Jim Bridwell, Ron Kauk, and Dale Bard were very supportive and they were the principal figures for me when I quickly look at the people who were established. It really was an amazing time. A time to get after it and get things done. I recall no exclusionary behaviour toward me or my partners from the core group.
This was and still is an amazing community.
Thank You Lois.
I like to look at stuff and share.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 22, 2006 - 11:17pm PT
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Riley,
What are you doing -100 hours per week?
I've done that man.
It feels like you have to and maybe you do.
But it is evil, this much work, in most cases.
I know, I am essentially cripled from it, or at least much more worn out than I would prefer.
Take Care,
Roy
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 22, 2006 - 11:17pm PT
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Hi Roy
It's fuking hot here now, and all I do is run around in circles on cop cars. I build them. Installations the full deal. I've been at it for 5 staight weeks 7 days a week 10 hours a day drilling soldering, wiring bolting sh#t on, decaling and demobeing the old ones.
It's a big ass wall, hahaha
8 down and 5 to go.
You want a lightbar ...... :-)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 22, 2006 - 11:26pm PT
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You know Werner I heard that's what you were doing.
I thought Jeez-
How many cars does the Park Service need light bars for and how often?
Full Build Outs. Wow.
Well?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jun 22, 2006 - 11:30pm PT
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"This was about a sense of urgency to do something special"
!!!!!!!!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 22, 2006 - 11:32pm PT
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Actually, how 'bout a light bar that says, on one side.
Hey! Hey! I am a real Stonemaster and a Real Climber!
Ya! memememememememememememememe. ME!
and on the other side it would flash, in big green letters:
Support World Peas or Else Then What
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 23, 2006 - 12:20am PT
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Hi Lois,
You have asked a fairly difficult set of questions. The answers that you have received are all correct, even if they contradict each other. And, if Werner says I am a ‘Stonemaster’ then there is no known all-inclusive definition. (Hey Ed, we may need a multi-dimensional vibrating string definition here.) More interestingly, I have just seen an advanced copy of the minutes of the ‘Stonemasters’ latest board meeting and you have been admitted as a *honorary* member. Way to go, Lois.
Several folks have suggested that you read John's excellent article on the 'Stonemasters' in the July issue of “Rock and Ice. If you don’t want to be seen buying a climbing rag, I am sure that someone will e-mail you a copy. It is a very good read and sheds light on who and what ‘Stonemasters' refers to. John writes it as a coming of age story that has universal appeal. Well done, John.
However, it seems to me that you have to have a pretty good idea of the history to parse John’s article and place it into the fuller climbing of the 1970s. John is clearly writing about a personal coming of age journey that he lived with his early climbing friends. It is also hard to read the ‘Stonemasters’ threads here on ST without a solid context.
So, here is some of the drier, historical perspective:
Kids coming into their own in the 1970s had grown up with the social mores of the 60s and did not face the prospect of Vietnam. They came with no obligations to follow in anyone else’s footsteps. In the climbing world of Yosemite, the prior generation had moved on to adulthood, businesses, and family life. Most importantly, for understanding the climbing community in the Valley in 1970, all the major faces had been climbed and the ‘Golden Age’ was over. There was a lull in first ascent activity from 1967 to 1970, then a few key climbers with a different vision of Valley climbing—hard all free climbing—tore up the place. At the same time, there was a marked increase in the number of climbers from all over the world who started to come to the Valley to climb. It became an international Mecca. Young climbers pored in, as prior generations pored in to hitch hiking around Europe, or joining hippy commune or the Peace Core. It was a new, exciting world.
In a sense, it was like the concept of a perfect storm.
You ask how climbers lived and several have given reasonable answers in a general way. Climbing can be very compelling. It can easily become the core of one’s life, especially if you are young and have a limitless future. By in large the actual climbing and the climbing ‘tribal’ community pretty much stays the same generation to generation. What makes the 1970s seem so different is that the climbing standards being set allowed some of the most spectacular climbs to be done all free, and in a style that is considered classic (trad). During this time there was also an increase in the number of climbers, although for the hard-core regulars it didn’t feel like it was getting bigger. Amongst this group, everyone pretty much knew everyone else.
Added to this base climbing are two other elements. The first is tied to the climbers who had personalities that were unique—sometimes based only on unfettered youthful enthusiasm and sometimes harboring manic-depressive and other serious disorders--who could use the intensity of the climbing and the intense emotional support of the climbing community to create a more or less stable life. (This was true of the earlier generation and sadly, several climbers who were of this second group could not make a transition into the more day-to-day world of adulthood and ended up wrecks of one sort or the other.)
The second element was a recording of the life and times of the climbers by both John Long in his many books, articles, and videos and the picture books that were published by climbers who grew up in this period. The myths were born of humor and camaraderie, and sometimes a willful recklessness, but survive as testaments to an idealized period of glorious youth. For these reasons, the period of the 1970s is very famous and many active climbers from that time are famous. Some of them will likely always be famous for their climbing abilities and accomplishments.
There was also increased opportunities to make money in climbing related activities—equipment design, manufacture, and sales; the movie business; and teaching, writing, and making videos to feed the increased interest in climbing.
One could live cheaply and just climb. As with any group of youngsters, incredible bonds were formed, and they took on the intensity of the climbing itself. It was the modern version of the Homeric tales that defined our world. It was glorious. It was emotionally intense. Moreover, it was incredibly tolerate of all modes of expression and personal foibles, because the main thing was all about the climbing.
The term ‘Stonemasters’ has been applied to both the best climbing of the period and to a group personality. In a nutshell, there are three distinct uses of the term ‘Stonemaster.’ As John lays out in his article, the original use was to describe a group of young climbers who were about 18-20 years old in about 1972, who lived in Southern California and climbed together in the main areas in Southern California. They climbed hard stuff, were loud, and separated themselves from the old fuddy duddies who were climbing at the time. There are rumors that they smoked dope. I think most of this original group has posted here on ST. John's article names Rick Accomazzo, Richard Harrison, Mike Graham, Robs Muir, Gib Lewis, Bill Antel, Jim Hoagland, Tobin Sorenson, John Bachar, (and of course John Long--Largo). Some of these names you will recognize as ST posters. John Bachar is known worldwide for his bold climbing and, perhaps more so, for his un-roped free soloing. Sadly, as he sits atop life’s mid-point, he has been reduced to a shoe fetishist. He, he.
When a subset of this group of friends came to Yosemite Valley in 1972 or 73, they were 'adopted' by Jim Bridwell, who had been climbing in the Valley for 10 years or so and was by 1971 considered the ‘Don’ of the Valley climbers. In the Valley at that time there was a fairly well established group of younger climbers who had ties to the climbers of the 1960s. This group sparked and fanned the free climbing fires in the Valley beginning in 1970. Amongst climbers of a certain age, there are many well-known names. Many of them were from the San Francisco Bay Area or ‘visitors’ from the East and Colorado. Part of the glue that held this group together was the YOSAR team—who all lived in the same camp together in Yosemite. Membership on YOSAR afforded free camping and extended stays in Yosemite. Jim was the head of the YOSAR camp and pretty much ran the community. Our very own Werner still is a member of YOSAR.
Jim had a knack for adopting promising climbers—sometimes even not promising climbers, just climbers with heart and effort. When John Long arrived with other ‘Stonemasters’ in 1973, Jim took John under his wing and over a period of time essentially adopted the name and style of the 'Stonemasters.' Bridwell sort of acted like the resident adult to his ‘boys.’ Certainly not for all the climbers and not all the time, but Jim was sensible and commanded respect from all climbers and the Park Service.
Climbers of about the same age as the Southern California ‘Stonemasters’ joined-up in a loose manner of speaking. John names Mark Chapman, Ron Kauk, Werner Braun, Billy Westbay, Ed Barry, Jim Orey, Rik Reider, Dale Bard, amongst those who became de-facto ‘Stonemasters.’ I can think of others that I would have added to the list, but John is channeling “The” ‘Stonemaster’ so his list stands. You will recognize Werner as a friend and fellow poster. The others are well known, and we still talk about them. Ron Kauk, who stays in the background and never posts, is by many calculations the best free climber of this entire generation.
This had the effect of transferring the name ‘Stonemasters’ to a wider group of climbers--although still a small group who were all about the same age, lived to climb in the Valley, hung out together, and climbed increasingly hard and spectacular 'all free' climbs. (The rumors about the weed consumption kept cropping up.) These hard free climbs set standards that seemed to be on a different plane than previous climbs. (With the passage of time, it is easy to see a continuum of increasing difficulty, but at the time, they blew everyone's socks off.)
The third meaning of 'Stonemasters' is derived from the identification of lots of climbers with John's writing and the stories that are told about some of the characters who made up the original Southern California 'Stonemasters'--Yabo is probably the best example of a beloved personality and John Bachar’s free solos are still held in awe. In this sense, it is less a defined group of climbers and more an identification of an era applied loosely to California free climbing in the 1970s. This is the stage of the 'mythology' of the 'Stonemasters.' This is how the tem is mostly used nowadays.
One of the difficulties in using the term ‘Stonemasters’ to refer to all of the 1970s Yosemite climbing is that many of the best climbers of that era were not associated with the name ‘Stonemasters’ either in their climbing or socially. This is mostly because of the social aspects the group personality and age differences. However, at the time, it was never an issue either way. 'Stonemasters' could be said with any tone of voice and mispronounced a couple of ways depending on one's mood--but it was never used to draw an unwanted line of exclusion or inclusion in the Valley. At the end of the day, it was always about the climbing.
Transcend life, Climb--Roger
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 23, 2006 - 12:31am PT
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Well, okay, Lois, if you must. But please be careful with a printed copy of this top secert background information. Don't leave it laying around, okay?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 23, 2006 - 01:00am PT
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Roger,
I think the super topo forum is magnitudes more slippery than any one move on Valhalla.
Lois has climbed boldly here,
with little in the way of protection and less concern for the abyss than many who have come before...
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 23, 2006 - 01:29am PT
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Lois, I forgot to reference the "EB on the other foot" thing. A diversion into a corner of 1970s climbing culture.
EBs were the shoe in the rock climbing world of the 1970s. In most pictures of Stonemasters from 1972 - 1983, and indeed of free climbing in that era, the climber is wearing EBs. The EB stood for Edouard Bourdeneau, the French creator of the shoe. The EB was in turn based on a shoe made by Pierre Allain, a famous pre-war French climber, and the first rock shoe (?) with a smooth rubber sole. To add to the confusion, the main distributor of the EB shoe was an English company, Ellis Brigham.
Anyway, everyone wore EBs in the 1970s, usually with cotton tube socks. So it wouldn't be unusual for a climber from that period on a forum to have the pen name LEB = Lois EB. EBs were better than what was previously available, but still not very good. The uppers were flimsy canvas, and had to be reinforced with colourful bits of leather. They were stiff, and the rubber was hard. And they fitted funny.
EBs of various kinds are apparently still made and can be bought in Europe. Not seen in North America. Classic example of the abuse of a monopoly, as EBs hardly changed in a decade. They were completely eclipsed in North America with the introduction of the Fire in 1983, a shoe made by Boreal, a Spanish company. They brought in shoes that fitted ok, were decently made, and had real sticky rubber. Magic shoes. John Bachar had a big hand in it, and still designs and makes shoes with Acopa, or as Roger B has it "he sits atop life’s mid-point, (and) had been reduced to a shoe fetishist." Though I think he still climbs a bit, eh?
I'm sure Lois EB is far superior to the original version.
Anders
ps Did I mention that, like many climbers, I have an anti-social fondness for puns and plays on words?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 23, 2006 - 03:10am PT
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Thanks Roger, that was a great post...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 23, 2006 - 10:24am PT
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yes i agree with ed, that was pretty cool roger.
i think it would be fun to expand on the work end of things and do some SAR stories, some film rigging stories (mike hoover), apple picking in washington, scarfing, canning, scamming: at least to expand the list of oddities in this regard.
in the yosemite canon, there is also a whole free climbing vector with some bridge characters taking us from the 60's to the 70's,
like getting from gill to kor/robbins/pratt/sacherer/rearick/kamps/higgins to bridwell/haan/klemens/breedlove to long/kauk/bard/bachar/chapman/worral: i'd like to hear some historical linkage there if that's doable. roger you nodded to it a bit and maybe well enough.
ok, just for flavor i crayoned up an impromptu laundry list of other prime late 60's to late 70's actors: cleveland, stannard, barber, logan, goss, wunsch, bragg, bein, devine, clevenger, bircheff, westbay, webster, wiggins, snively, dunn, erickson, briggs, holloway, hudon, jones.
whutabout the gals? hunter, higgins, johnson
someone help me out here.
(ok, we are all prime actors in our own way and time, but per the era, the above were influential and credited with lots of free ascents)
hey anders, did you change from anders ouron(sp?) to mighty hiker? same guy? hmmm.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 23, 2006 - 10:46am PT
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hey radical,
i have permanent muscle/tendon/connective tissue damage from repetitive strain as a result of 100 hr weeks, then if that isn't your weak point and the physical focus isn't your bag, there is always toasted adrenals, leading to chronic fatigue and so on.
i bet LEB punches a mean clock.
keep your nutritional needs dialed in man.
if werner ratchets his cop car building efforts up another 30 hours, we'll have to send him a care package too...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 23, 2006 - 11:14am PT
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send Werner and Merry a care package now... when we dropped into YOSAR last week they were busy building a cop car on the weekend, 9:30 am, they were working hard and looking at a huge pile of work yet to do!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 23, 2006 - 11:38am PT
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I'm thinking Vern Clevenger of Tuolomne new routing fame and Fairview in particular; good buddys with Claude Fiddler, sort of the Largo of the Eastern Sierra. Has some great photography.
Red moppy hair, big stature, central figure amongst Oakshot, Stimson, Keating, Harrington, Millis, Milano clan. Did an early ascent of Astroman with Jardine, good buddys with Galen Rowell. Graber took a mouthfull out of his wedding cake before it got cut.
I first became aquainted after he did an El Cap route slide show of Mescalito in '75, a route he did with Rosenthal, RIP. Walt did all his leads in Lowa Triplex, while Vern attempted some FFA of some of the pitches.
He kicked me, no, threw me out of his house once for being a punk. Good times...
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jun 23, 2006 - 12:33pm PT
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"He kicked me, no, threw me out of his house once for being a punk. Good times..."
heavens! you, acting like a punk?? say it's not so, roy....
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 23, 2006 - 01:33pm PT
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Open the pod bay doors Hal.
HAL!.
Open the pod bay doors, I have a load of hexes, stoppers, and oval 'biners from the floor of Clevenger's blue Sierra Designs Faux Mckinley I pole tent knock-off.
Also some old Kastle skis from Barter and Card's Red-Line Trans Sierra Traverse.
Plus some of Dale's Licorice, a hollowed out jar of honey, one headband and a babie's arm holding an apple...
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 23, 2006 - 01:38pm PT
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Hi Roy and Ed,
Thanks for the nice comments. I am glad that John published his article on "Stonemasters," because it forms a solid cornerstone to trace the other climbers who created modern free climbing. Vern is one of those guys. I also remember that he was pudgy, at least in the beginning. Then he was just big, like a Sherman tank. How he managed to float up those edge climbs was always a mystery. If he stood in front of Tom Higgins and Bob Kamps, you could only see the top of Tom's head. I also have made the comment that Vern introduced me to the benefits of falling on lead to learn--that first summer in the Meadows he had taken more leader falls than pitches he had led. I teased him about it, but took careful note at the speed with which he was improving.
I like the idea of trying to piece together the line of climbers that culminated in Astroman and Separate Reality. It also needs to include the likes of Charlie Porter for his contribution to Big Wall climbing. We can trace it, I think, with some help from Ed's first ascent database. It would be nice to get some more of those climbers involved in sharing stories and motivations--they are all around, some still climbing hard, but none very interested in posting up. Tom Higgins and Peter Haan are exceptions. Maybe we can entice more to join in.
Best, Roger
PS: I am really interested in what happened in the 80s and 90s--the future history. I lived with the late 60s and the 70s and I like talking about those times. But I know nothing about the details of the climbing after that. Someone--maybe John B-- reported that the first ascent rate in the Valley dropped off when power drills were banned. "What, when were power drills ever used in the Valley?" So there should be some sort of quid pro quo.
(It will also give someone else an opportunity tell Lois who cleaned up after the pet monkey. Note to Lois: it's a joke.)
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de eee
Mountain climber
Tustin
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Jun 23, 2006 - 01:53pm PT
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Just to comment on the early section of this thread. Listen to Ol' Gordo', he knows his Buggerer history. If anyone was the original Sheep B., it was Russ! Although at this point in time Crag might like to claim such notoriety, eh?
Go Fish.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 23, 2006 - 03:10pm PT
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I've really enjoyed Roger's posts particularly.
Another event was the publication of George Meyers' "Yosemite Climbs", in 1976. The first all topo guide to be published, and a bible in the Valley. I made my first long trip to the Valley in autumn 1976, and remember buying it at Robbins' store in Modesto. People spent hours and days reading and memorizing and absorbing the thing. It was a record of Valley history, and a foundation for what followed. The previous guide was published in 1970, had funny stories, was all-text, and not so easy to use. The 1976 guide was a kind of marker, and got everyone on the same page, so to speak.
And, to tie it together, the 1976 guide in effect set the scene for all the fine ST guides - some of the topos still endure.
I still have the thing, and in reasonable shape - did I mention that my mother and sister are both librarians? :-)
Anders
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 23, 2006 - 03:48pm PT
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That's funny Roger,
When I spent time with Clevenger and Fiddler in Summer of '80, Claude's favorite quote concerning Vern was a version of the one you mentioned/coined:
"The Summer Vern Lost More Yardage Than He Gained".
'80 is the year they finished "Heart of Stone" on Fairview.
So there is "Yosemite Climber", the picture book by Meyers right?
The Colorado equivalent would be "Climb" by Godfrey and Chelton.
That is a wonderful set of B & W photos along with a lot of great history.
"High Exposure" by David Breashears.
LOIS, read that one for a good well rounded tale of a 70's achiever making his way. I felt a lay person could absorb it.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 23, 2006 - 05:07pm PT
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there is a piece of history yet to be written, I think, and that is about Mark Powell, who is responsible for the surge of FA's in the Valley around 1957... his story is woven among the big stories of the time, the FAs on Half Dome and El Capitan...
...I'll re-read Camp 4 and see how much time Roper spends, but it seems that Powell's influence was very deep.
Of course, once that is dispenced with, it's on to the late 70's, the 80's and the 90's...
And there is the issue of what exactly happened in the 90's which is heretofore undocumented.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 23, 2006 - 05:41pm PT
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That's a great quote, Roy. Says it all. It seemed to me that Vern was the first serious climber in Yosemite who learned to fall before he learned to climb--a huge lever in increasing the standards. The general procedure was that if you thought you might fall you'd just stay in the cafeteria or--in the Meadows--at the grill.
Me? I always ventured out. But if I thought I was going to peel, I was reduced to frantic crys followed by whimpers as I refilled my lungs. Must have been 4 feet above my last piece, I tell you. Strung out like you wouldn't believe. I'd have to take a few days off, re-center myself. Vern? He'd have done 20 routes in the meantime, peeling on everyone.
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scuffy b
climber
Chalet Neva-Care
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Jun 23, 2006 - 05:44pm PT
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Vern's "bumbly" phase couldn't have lasted too long, since he
did one of the early repeats of Stoner's in 73 and Piece de Resistance in 74. By that time (19? 20?) the baby fat was definitely gone. He could haul partners upward like nobody's
business--"up rope, Vern, I'm still not moving!"
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 23, 2006 - 06:05pm PT
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I think it must have been in 1970, although it might have been one year either way--I don't have a good frame of reference. Anyway, it didn't take Vern long to master hard face.
Wasn’t Vern on the first ascent of “Stoner's Highway?” I know he did a least one new route on the North Face Apron in 1973 with Worrall and Meyers--I think.
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Jun 23, 2006 - 06:10pm PT
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I always thought the crux pitch on Mr. Toads was one of the best pitches I have ever climbed anywhere. Sustained, clean (except for those scary stainless hangers), thin, and very hard. That is one of the routes I am most proud to have climbed.
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Jun 23, 2006 - 07:57pm PT
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Talking about heavy, don't forget Mike Pope. That boy just about cut me in half a few times catching him.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 23, 2006 - 08:01pm PT
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Yes Ed,
Powell.
All us Taquitz boys could owe him a debt.
I intentionally left him out because I know so little.
A couple months ago, someone posted some de-luxe shots of Powell and his boys doing stuff at Taquitz. I did not bookmark it. 'Might have been BVB. Ya, let's get into that. Help please, super-archivo-taco-posters.
(I too am drawn to the rough hewn and elemental histories and the attendant routes).
Back to Vern taking whippers.
Roger,
As you and many others who are following along know, the whole 70's thing of climbing on Hexes and Stoppers was quite an artful and testy thing to be doing. Those photos that Peter Haan posted recently showing Chris Vandiver at the base of Short but Thin and Cramming, that was a nice representation of the common rack of the times.
I learned on that stuff, but I probably never climbed parallel 5.11 on nuts. Yabo made a characteristic statement:
"Leading 5.11 crack on hexes was often a life or death proposition".
He said when Kauk was working on Tales of Power, Ron would give him a single #5 hex and let him pump it up a ways only to freak and be lowered (having gotten' in a high piece).
Mark Chapman sort of agreed; at least he was astute and perhaps proud to say that with that kind of gear you were not allowed to get pumped. So he got into the idea (as a lot of us have), that you should put two pieces in and run it out through the crux and not allow yourself to get pumped.
I still find face climbing protected with stoppers to be very satisfying. This is one of the neat things about Eldorado; that you need to be good with RP's on the more technical, sparsely protected routes.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 23, 2006 - 08:08pm PT
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Ya Shorty,
Vern was proud that Waugh had trouble on one of those routes; Sorcerers?
Na, that's not the one.
Maybe one of the others, where he banged his ankle.
Hey, none of us were ever competitive, noooo.
Vern really was doin' some stuff in The Meadows, about the same time our Suicide Rock revolution was happening? More or less the same time frame I'd say.
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rmuir
Social climber
the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Jun 23, 2006 - 08:36pm PT
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So while we're "slandering" Mr. Clevenger, let me recount one of the very first times I ever placed a bolt. Vern, too, I'll bet...
Summer of 1971, we were both so green behind the ears, you coulda harvested the algae for protein. I was barely 19, and Vern was a bubbly teeny-bopper himself. First Summer in Tuolumne, back in the day when you could actually pitch a tent and camp at Soda Springs, right below the Sierra Club lodge (which back then was also a lending library.) There were full-on camp tables and fire rings then, and it was a free campground--mostly filled with climbers. Hell, you could park your car there, too. (See, LEB... That was part of what enabled the Stonemaster lifestyle. ...cheap lodging!) I spent three or four weeks there that Summer.
Vern and I had scoped-out a possible first ascent line! Hot damn! Probably our first foray into the unknown; possibly our first entry in the guidebooks! A place in history! To the right of the main face of Meddlicott, was this slabby little hunk that had a dike running vertically up a two-hundred foot sloped wall. Modest, but unclimbed!
Somehow, between the two of us, we had a drill, a hammer and a couple of 1/4" rawls and some hangers. We were all set!
"Baggage" would be ours. We hammered-in a bolt (or two), ran it out, and returned to write it up in the Meadows' notebook. As Tarbuster would say, "we were swole!" Our first FA!
"Ruby the Dyke." (Spot that reference, old timers.) ...couldn't have been more that 5.7 at the outside.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jun 23, 2006 - 09:22pm PT
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TB,
From above . . .
"Open the pod bay doors Hal.
HAL!.
Open the pod bay doors, I have a load of hexes, stoppers, and oval 'biners from the floor of Clevenger's blue Sierra Designs Faux Mckinley I pole tent knock-off.
Also some old Kastle skis from Barter and Card's Red-Line Trans Sierra Traverse."
So if I understand this right, you want to jettison a pair of Kastle skiis used on the Tom Carter and Allen Bard Redline Traverse of the Sierras? I asked Allen (RIP) when he came down to San Diego for a slide show if he would draw out on Topos, the entire Redline Traverse, and he said "That would be like telling you where my favorite secret fishing hole is (lol). But I'll guide you on it."
Can you authenticate them as being from the actual venture, and if so, how much do you want for them? Maybe I could get them and then give them to the Derryberry's at Mill Creek Station for their Museum?
About Vern,
My neighbor on Mustang Mesa Tina Reed, was a photo assitant for Vern for a few years. Vern has just opened a new photo gallery on Main Street (HY 395) in Bishop next to the new drive-through Starbucks. Hope he does really well. Super nice guy, and lots of great stories.
I gave a map to Vern showing Galen and Barbara's crash site after going out there and crying my eyes out a few weeks after the accident, after the FAA and NTSB were done at the site. Vern was a direct protégé of Galen's.
Sadly, Fiddler's gallery closed that was opposite corners to Galen's gallery. Went in there to say hi, just after he opened his gallery, and bought his climbing guide and had Claude sign it for me.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 23, 2006 - 10:10pm PT
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Klimmer,
Do I have the red Kaestle skis?
Hell no.
Nore to I have a baby's arm holding an apple.
I wonder if Carter saved a pair...
Hey Robs that was a great little passage!
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 23, 2006 - 11:51pm PT
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Hey Robs, that is a great description of the Meadows and Soda Springs--the Park still had the old camping-in-the-woods feel to it. Great story of you and Vern (by the way does he spell it Vern or Verne?) doing your first, first.
Roy, I still have my 70s hexs and stopper rack, with all the old beat up biners, a Dolt cleaning piton--just hammered out long and thin with no hook, on a Forest gear sling, and a hammer with a long blunt pick end. All the other stuff too. Even a gen-u-wine bolt kit. It has been in my 'liberated' milk crate since 1980, in low light basement storage, untarnished by any modern influences.
I started out with a rack of pins, but switched to nuts as soon as Chouinard offered Hexs and Stoppers. I think it sounds sort of lame now, but we all sort of took the position that the protection possibilities with nuts only was part of the route. The first year I guided for Wayne Merry, we taught with nuts--I am not sure that I ever showed a client how to drive a pin.
There were some real skeptics from the 60s crowd. The crap from the UK seemed like toys and it did have a sort of nuts for nuts sake sense to it--a little precious, what with using knotted slings for nuts and counter force placement. But with the Chouinard gear, nuts had a heft and seriousness to them that made using them manly and official. I have pins that I bought 40 years ago that have never been driven.
On crack climbs my experience was the same as yours: set good protection and run it out as fast as you could. But I never led the sort of hard stuff that you guys did.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 24, 2006 - 12:43am PT
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Here's all I have of Vern,
Comin' in at us at the Meadows Gas Station:
Claude Fiddler:
Both these guys epitomize something...
Friendship I think.
Here's Claude,
Dapper in Kronies-
On the cover of the guidebook he did with Moynier:
Chockstone Press '93
photo Clevenger, on the Minaret Traverse
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Jun 24, 2006 - 12:46am PT
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Roy, it was Sorcerer's that Waugh crashed and burned on. Broke his wrist (navicular break) on it. He was climbing with Badyrka. He came home from the meadows broken and I took him to Lake Shasta and taught him how to water ski. F#cker gets up on one ski first try with only one hand. He met his first wife there, 600 miles from home and she lived a mile from his house. That marriage lasted 8 months, she didn't understand climbing. Thank god he ended up with Brenda!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 24, 2006 - 12:52am PT
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Brenda is so Great!
So is Mike.
Hmmm:
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jun 24, 2006 - 12:59am PT
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Yes Ed,
Powell.
All us Taquitz boys could owe him a debt.
let's talk about the "other" powell.
i'll never forget my first bouldering excursion with KP. winter, 1977. watusi had talked him into coming down to check out santee, spinning tales of highball dimes and knee-knocking nickles.
so we take him out there on a crisp saturday morning in february, perfect conditions -- sunny, cold, green grass and crisp blue skies -- and KP proceeds to effortlessly, and i DO mean effortlessly -- hike every testpeice at santee. he then proceeded to do three or four new routes that it took us one or two years to repeat.
now mind you, in '77 routes like shockley's "the terrible face" and the "shockly lunge", and some stuff the scumbags had done, we're pretty fookin' hard. we'd all done valhalla and new gen at that point, and considered ourselves good face climbers. but on that day, we learned what the real standard was -- and KP, along with the Chicken, who we met shortly thereafter -- were it.
i'd have to say that KP and DH were responsible for the intense motivation that drove me and watusi and galen kirkwood to "up our game" -- we were so damn competitive, and so humbled by those guys -- that a year later we'd made quantum leaps as thin hold dimes dudes, even tho our first love was cracks.
kp and dh will always be, in my mind, the standard bearers for thin hold face climbing in the late 70's and early 80's, the tail end of the e.b.'s era. routes like flabob and ishi are still mind-blowing, a quarter-century later, and sport moves much harder than your typical "hard" slab at font or heuco. there is a reason these routes are seldom, if ever, repeated -- and it does not have to do with slab climbing being "out of fashion".
just slighly ahead of their time they were -- and they stayed that way for 20+ years. at this stage in my life, i'm as jaded and impossible to impress as someone can be -- but to this day, at 49 years old, when i'm talking to KP or DH i still feel like some starstuck teenage girl who swiped a backstage pass and somehow wound up drinking martinis with madonna. it's embarassing to admit, but there you go.
to bad those guys weren't born in san diego. they coulda been contenders.....
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 24, 2006 - 12:59am PT
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Remember Hawkins?
Here with Tom Carter at Deadman's Summit.
Here he is with Claude:
Tom Carter,
Partner to Alan Bard and,
Sheesh, who else?
On the Red Line Ski Traverse of the Sierra:
I more or less met these guys along with Vern.
Claude and Vern and the rest were an inspirational crew...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 24, 2006 - 01:07am PT
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Regardless BVB,
All that is so fun to read and too true about Kevin Powell.
But I was responding to Ed Hartouni's upthread comments about Mark Powell as a late 50's super uber dude...
Here is Ed Hartouni's post:
*there is a piece of history yet to be written, I think, and that is about Mark Powell, who is responsible for the surge of FA's in the Valley around 1957... his story is woven among the big stories of the time, the FAs on Half Dome and El Capitan...*
*...I'll re-read Camp 4 and see how much time Roper spends, but it seems that Powell's influence was very deep.*
Oops,
My Bad.
What have you got on Mark Powell?
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jun 24, 2006 - 01:14am PT
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not much. from a early 60's ish of summit:
btw, i'm experiencing severe post-Jtree reunion depression. should i see a shrink??
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 24, 2006 - 01:19am PT
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Roper starts Chapter 4 Weekenders No More: 1957-1959 with about 4 pages discussing Mark Powell. This is mostly about a 15 month period in which he did 15 first ascents.
The first serious climber to live in the Valley...
"Not content to follow in others' footsteps, he experimented with the unknown, pushed his limits, and often went out on the proverbial limb. The best climbers were to emulate this attitude in the remarkable decade to come."
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 24, 2006 - 01:24am PT
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No Way!
No Shrink BVB.
Let's Talk Scotch.
There is a bottler who's product I almost purchased...
'Name escapes me
Nah,
"Went for the Tequila:
Milagro Reposado.
How's Jocelyn?
Hey:
Cheers -Those are the Mark Powell Shots I was harkening.
"Guyman", or Guy Kesee knows about some M Powell stuff.
Guy?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jun 24, 2006 - 01:28am PT
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Thanks again, Roger.
What Roy said, Lois, contact me if you want to borrow Climb! and/or downward bound.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 24, 2006 - 01:28am PT
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See Ed?!
Fantastic.
That's what we were looking for,
The Stonemaster Progenitor.
Mark Powell.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jun 24, 2006 - 01:29am PT
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'buster: agreed. a fine dram is much cheaper than a single session with a shrink.
but i do wish that weekend were more like a month. i love you guys.
guess i'll go pour another lagavulin, and dream of days past, and days yet to come.....
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jun 24, 2006 - 01:34am PT
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Speaking of Scotch, any one ever read the article (not sure where it was published)with photos by Ace Kvale of a bed and breakfast / Mtn bike tour of scotlands single malt distilliries, partially sponsered by Peet's coffee?
Kragen mor,(sp?) seems like the best choice for climbers.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 24, 2006 - 01:37am PT
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Yah,
I've had Cragganmore,
Highland as I recall.
Dark.
A bit smoky.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jun 24, 2006 - 02:01am PT
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Best served from a silver flask around a campfire, I find.
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Jun 24, 2006 - 02:36am PT
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Ahhhh, Roy is drinking one of my favorite tequilas there. I had a nice margie made with Milagro Reposado and Patron Citronge this evening. Almost as good as Patron for a lot less money.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 24, 2006 - 11:07am PT
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Now I'm drinking coffee shorty,
While Largo is next door clarifying the active nature of the Enneagram.
What a rich thing this forum is for us.
So Rox, just to cover the base on Vern; you may not know that he recently survived an extracted brain tumor. There have been other threads with posts on that.
Let's raise our glass to one of us who has contributed a ton to the game and who has not slipped away. With the right people posting, like Bob Harrington or Claude, we could have a whole thread on Vern.
Maybe Largo knows something more to tell about Mark Powell?
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hashbro
Trad climber
Not in Southern California
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Jun 24, 2006 - 01:25pm PT
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I spent a good deal of time with Claude in Sonora where we both attended Columbia College in the late 70s. Claude and his cronies (including the very cool Bob Jones) spent their time collecting food stamps, ski patrolling at Bear Mountain, taking a few classes at the college, cragging in the Valley in the Spring and hanging in Tuolomne in the Summers.
Claude had an incredibly good sense of humor and was always a massive kick to party with. Claude, are you there?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 24, 2006 - 01:54pm PT
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Bob Jones, Yes and a guy named Dieder?
"Jonesy" is a jewel, I still run into him at least once a decade...
I've trotted this out before on the forum.
Here's to Fiddler's Sense of Humor:
Claude, Hitchcock, Mayfield, Diegelman, Tarbousier
Claude and Jim Keating and I used to do "Theme Climbs", replete with costumes. Above is a drag ascent of the Eunich and Hermaphrodite Flake.
We did an "Italiano Directissima" of Lemberts Direct NW Face.
Yerian and I did a "Western Round Up" of Lucky Streaks.
Hey Spencer:
There is that great shot of you in the Yosemite Climber, on, um Anticipation?
Were you at School in Sonora then?
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yo
climber
I'm so over it
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Jun 24, 2006 - 02:52pm PT
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Very cool thread.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 24, 2006 - 03:46pm PT
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Theme climbs?
Costumes?
What do you think this is, summer camp?
Where are the angst and the serious facades to uphold, forcryingoutloud?
So, tell me Roy, did you go to hell because of climbing or did climbing go to hell because of you?
TL,C
PS: Thanks for posting pictures of Bruce, Tom, and Claude.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 24, 2006 - 03:47pm PT
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hahahahaha!
I had help Roger.
The Culprit: Russ Walling, The Fish, Mussy.
He's an exceptional goofball and really took the piss out of the whole shebang.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 24, 2006 - 03:53pm PT
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It gets worse Roger (better)
Now would be a good time for me to answer your question about the 80's.
Roger Wrote: "I am really interested in what happened in the 80s and 90s--the future history."
Let me introduce you to my Opus, the prime movement in my Ouvre:
"The Mussy Nebula":
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=158234&f=0&b=0
Sit back, enjoy.
You won't find a straight statement in the whole 15 page thread.
Heck, it's mostly about people who were active in the 80's and it didn't even degenerate into actual climbing photos for many pages...
*Credit goes to BVB for propping it up after my photos and scotch ran thin*
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Jun 24, 2006 - 10:41pm PT
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LEB I don't think you totally get how cool this site can be. How many sites can you go to and talk to Arnold Palmer about golf, A.J. Foyt about auto racing or Johnny Unitas about football. You are talking to legends, and most of them can still bust a move.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jun 24, 2006 - 11:15pm PT
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Good point Mark, but ya know, I think Lois is here for the same reason that a bunch of us are, it's the quality of the
discourse, sometimes, anyway.
Climbers have a set of built-in Cliff™ notes here, and the significance of various people logging in is a big deal, but it really boils down to what the posters have to say, which is often pretty darn interesting, IMVHO.
To go back a ways, Largo's insights into Bonanza are more interesting the more I think about them. It doesn't matter if you don't know who Largo is in the climbing world. He had some insightful things to say, though it's an added kick, if you do know his climbing face. (I'm picking on him becasue he's one of the more high profile in that other, nonclimbing world)
For the rest of us (climbers) when you wonder about some historic climb that you are interested in, and/or doesn't get done much and then run into someone as erudite as Peter Haan, Roger, etc talking about what it felt like the first time it is a rare treasure, indeed.
Sheeit! I met "the best OW climber in California," here, and we talked about evolution and the fossil record, among other things.
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Jun 24, 2006 - 11:37pm PT
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Besides this being a place to hang with friends or ex-friends (can friends ever be ex?), this is a great place for discourse. As Lois is discovering, climbers are sort of unique in the combination of their intelligence, boldness, and (I don't know the right word) their out-there-ness. Along with the climbing this has always been one of the draws into the climbing world for me. The cast of characters that you would find on any Saturday night at Joshua Tree, and the interaction between them was always amazing. There are evenings with Schockly, Bachar, Keesee, Dean and Largo that were otherworldly. Hell, there were days with those boys that were otherworldly.
At any rate, if you look in the right places, climbing still seems to draw those sorts in. Maybe we had no where else to go. I know many of us probably though there would never be a place we fit in as well as we fit in to the climbing community, and some of that still applies to some of the new climbers that I meet. I find it easy to look at a group of young climbers and pick out the ones that will be sucked up into the sport. We are indeed different. We have indeed been sucked up. And even if you escape for a while, you are never gonna get out clean. This makes us a community and that is what ST is, a community.
Thanks all.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 25, 2006 - 11:24am PT
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Nice words all,
For me the whole climbing community is such a rich combination of things.
There is a lot of power to it, both coming from the risk involved and from certain sacrifices required to attain mastery.
We are a group escaping a life otherwise frittered away and ensnared in the mundane.
The social element has been so colorfull; most climbers, particularly our So Cal and Yosemite vatiety seem to be hyper social. All those cold mornings in J Tree, coffee and reefer flowing, racks of cowbell hexes clanging about, a dispersion of jolly hecklers, "qualified leaders", top rope gangs, bouldering caravans...
"a dimp for a chimp..."
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henny
Social climber
The Past
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Jun 26, 2006 - 12:28pm PT
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bvb,
Yeah, the Little Imp could pull down on the thin holds couldn't he? But I always felt that his smack talking abilities far outweighed his crimping abilities. Whadda ya think?
BTW: I think (wait, strike that, I know...) that I hear a certain bouldering area in Riverside CA. calling your name.
San Deigo, Contenders, ... ??? Care to explain that? I must be missing something.
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Jun 26, 2006 - 12:57pm PT
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Did the rest of you just hear some clucking? Hmmm, maybe it was all in my head.
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Uplander
Social climber
Upland
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Jun 26, 2006 - 02:00pm PT
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I'm new here. Just had an old pal direct me to a post on here that mentioned myself and some buddies. In general, there was a group of us that ranged in age from 17-25 that mostly lived in Upland, had all gone to UHS. I got a kick out of John's story about Harrisons pad. We grew pot in the empty pool up there in the hills behind his place.
The way we looked at it back then was, you were not a true Stonemaster unless you'd spent an entire summer season in Camp IV. While we were not above pilfering to climb as much as possible, none of our group (the Uplanders) could pull off a whole summer in the Valley. That seperated the men from the boys as far as we were concerned.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jun 26, 2006 - 03:49pm PT
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Being an Uplander (Highlander) myself I´m curious who you are??
JL
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Jun 26, 2006 - 04:19pm PT
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John, the Uplanders were who we were protecting when we "neee'ed" the ranger in HV campground at Josh. The ranger followed the only one who could drive (can't remember any names - blond and 17) back from town and tried to give him a speeding ticket. In the big old tent in the site were the uplanders, all underage, all drinking out of the keg they somehow managed to acquire. Ranger finally left, but that was the end of climber/ranger relations in JT.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 26, 2006 - 05:41pm PT
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Shorty T:
You might be referring to Kieth Cunning and crew?
(mid /late 70's)
JL would remember them quite well.
I know I do.
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Uplander
Social climber
Upland
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Jun 26, 2006 - 06:21pm PT
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Yes, that was our bunch, but I don't remember a keg in the tent, so maybe I was off doing something else that week. Some of our crew were definately the Jack Ass staff, back before Jack Asses made millions doing stupid things on MTV.
"surfing" in on the JT road on top of the station wagon was one of the stunts that was not tolerated well by Ranger Jan, as he passed by in the opposite direction on patrol..
I think it was Yabo that made the first dare, and it became a regular part of the drive in.
"Racing" to the car from Taquitz was another stupid game that occasionally ended up with a broken bone. Amazing some of us lived through those days, and that was OFF the rocks.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jun 26, 2006 - 06:40pm PT
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One of the amazing thing about the Uplanders is that they were actually pretty good climbers. And the group ascents were hilarious. I heard about one in which Keith and company bagged the Chouinard Herbert on Sentinel, with like twelve climbers, and that someone topped out while others were jugging fixed lines some ten pitches below. Ropes pretty well strung over the entire mo fo. Now that´s pretty hilarious.
JL
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Uplander
Social climber
Upland
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Jun 26, 2006 - 06:57pm PT
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Yeah, we all lied to our parents and told them we were each spending the night at one anothers places, and then loaded the station wagon and hauled ass WITH ONLY LEARNERS PERMITS!!!
Left Friday afternoon, home Sunday night!
We cooked on a Coleman camp stove (white gas no less!)in the back seat while driving 100 MPH up the 395. We took turns riding in the way-back facing backwards with binoculars watching for cops.
Rhoades scholars we were.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 26, 2006 - 07:37pm PT
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Ed Kaufer recently emailed me as a result of our profile here on the forum.
Uplander: you would be?
I can't remember all the names, but you might be the nice guy who hiked up to the top of El Cap, when Ed and I topped out on the Nose? A name like, Keesey?
Or you could be Joanna's brother?
Cheers,
Roy
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Ouch!
climber
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Jun 26, 2006 - 07:41pm PT
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"Actually, I should like for Ouch to comment on my perception in this regard since he was in a position to witness the 70s from both sides, so to speak. Many of the pics you post of your military years and the first years of your marriage suggest to me that you were a young adult in the early 1950s, a time when many of us were just getting born. Ouch, do you agree with my assessment that the 70s were a transition period between two very radically different sets of societal values and norms? I believe that when you came of age, the societal values were very similar to what was the norm for the 40s and also that these same values/norms persisted that time persisted for almost another 20 years or so. Then, it would seem, everything dramatically changed. Here-to-fore it had been perhaps slowly evolving but now suddenly there were radical changes coming about esp in terms of the people who were young adults at that time. Does it seem that way to you?"
Well said, Lois. Sorry I missed your post.
Things pretty much remained tame from the 30s thru the early 50s with respect to societal values. Some of the seeds were sown during the war when so many grew up without a father at home. This caused many to become more mature and responsible and loosened the reins on others.
Then the entertainment media began pushing the envelope. During the early 50s, the word pregnant was not allowed on TV. Then the Civil Rights movement began to heat up and a little later, Bob Dylan put a million kids on the road. Along comes Vietnam and the Flower Children and the lid blew off.
People began to think of themselves as more independent thinkers
while at the same time, looking to Hollywood to show us how to live. A bit of a paradox, I guess. Hollywood showed in movies and on TV what we had been sneaking around doing since Plato.
I personally believe some things are better left unsaid and unseen. I know sh#t smells bad and don't need to have my nose rubbed in it.
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Uplander
Social climber
Upland
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Jun 26, 2006 - 08:06pm PT
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No, I believe it was Mike Keeney who met you guys on top. He WAS/IS a very nice guy, and I have not seen him in years. Kaufer maybe ten years ago or so...
Joanne's brother Pete and I still see each other. We made a trip to Alaska last september. Her other brother Chuck also works here with Keith and myself. Chuck is the one who rolled his truck driving out of Josh one late night. He and Ed Kaufer were room mates in college. For being the Jack Asses of Joshua Tree, most of us turned out okay professionally.
I was the tallest guy in the group. 6'7", so that may spur a memory. I was never as good as some of the other guys, so I spent a lot of time hauling gear and "offering advice".
My adventures are in Africa these days. Haven't roped up in years.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 26, 2006 - 08:13pm PT
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Wow Cool!
Not sure of your name or getting a mental image just yet Uplander; although a super tall guy kind of rings a bell.
hmm, blond hair, glasses?
It was really nice to hear from Ed after many years.
Please give my best to Pete and Joanne.
...and a big sloppy wet kiss to Kieth!
-Roy
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jun 26, 2006 - 10:54pm PT
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bvb,
Yeah, the Little Imp could pull down on the thin holds couldn't he? But I always felt that his smack talking abilities far outweighed his crimping abilities. Whadda ya think?
BTW: I think (wait, strike that, I know...) that I hear a certain bouldering area in Riverside CA. calling your name.
San Deigo, Contenders, ... ??? Care to explain that? I must be missing something.
darryl, i just had the most delicious fried CHICKEN for dinner, ala the albertsons deli.
alas, now my fingers are to greasy to crank......
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Uplander
Social climber
Upland
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Jun 27, 2006 - 12:42am PT
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Roy, good to hear from you ol buddy. Keith and Pete send their regards (I'm sure Joanne will as well, as soon as i can relay the message).
I found this old photo, care of Keith Cunning (He's on the left-shirtless), but for the life of us, we can't figure out who those other guys are,,,hahahaha...by the way, did john ALWAYS flex for a photo, or was it just a reaction to the flash???
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y79/Ngagi/UplandersKC-JL.jpg
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Jun 27, 2006 - 11:36am PT
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Mo is the one in the middle.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 27, 2006 - 12:37pm PT
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Largo not flexing: that's the man at rest.
Mo, smug leader of the mobile harrasment unit, between exaltations.
Uplander photo courtesy Kieth Cunning, King of the Uplanders, well, Prince if you estimate Largo's influence as chaperon.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jun 27, 2006 - 05:34pm PT
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John Thacker (not Bachar) in the background. Great shot.
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Uplander
Social climber
Upland
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Jun 28, 2006 - 12:09am PT
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I guess saracsm is filtered on this forum. We know these guys...the test was whether anybody else did.
Gawd dang this place makes me feel old. Good thing I still hang around with punks.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 28, 2006 - 12:18am PT
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Nope, no sarcasm here.
We're just a bunch of sweet 'ole ladies at a knitting circle.
All my pals are mostly slow rolling stones;
Gathering moss, yet still kinda punky.
Did you lay a fat lusty kiss on Kieth fer me yet?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 28, 2006 - 12:34am PT
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I just re-read LEB's initial post and I have to set the record straight, I was not a Stonemaster, even though I am old enough and started climbing around the same time and even lived in the same area in SoCal that John Long did. I never committed myself to a life of climbing for various reasons, most of my adventure was in science.
The memory of making the choice is still very clear to me, though. My love of climbing at the time was really mountaineering rather than rock climbing. It still is to some extent. But to make a life mountaineering I felt would probably lead to early death. The attrition rates among mountaineers was rather high. The choice I made was based on calculated risk. And I decided that the risk was too high.
Anyway, I climbed mostly because I derived a great pleasure out of it as a sport. I never really got very good at it by the current standards. That isn't how I measure myself though.
The Stonemasters were just that: master climbers... I have a deep appreciation for their accomplishments in climbing. It is a wonderful thing about climbing that we can go out and attempt to climb anything. Often when we are out we run into the best climbers, especially if we are climbing in some of the best climbing areas, like Yosemite and Tuolumne. We climb at whatever level we are capable, on the very same climbs that were at the absolute upper limits of climbing in the past. I don't know many sports like that.
I hope to keep climbing for as long as possible.
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Uplander
Social climber
Upland
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Jun 28, 2006 - 12:45am PT
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Randy,
Did you see the old poem I'd written about Yabo on one of the other Stonemaster posts (a day or two ago...my entire life on this site)? It is written in half pencil, and half ink, as the fricken lead broke off half way through, and I finished it with a pen I found under the seat of the Uplanders stationwagon.
The outside clear plastic part that had the BIC logo was gone, and sacrificed weeks before as a spit-wad barrel to shoot people bouldering (or doing something we felt was too easy to rope up for...probably innocent Sierra Club Members on their first climbing experience), so it was just the thin plastic rod with a ball point tip still attached to the end.
YOU happened to be there at the time......
Yabo and some of you guys had been in Josh for some time before we arrived that week. Like a Hyena on a fresh kill, he saw the old Country Squire Station Wagon roll into HV, as we started to unload the "Dooby Den"...our massive Sears tent, and our food, equipment etc...
We had the good sense to keep the ropes, racks and good stuff inside under lock and key in the hot rod. The ice chest which most likely contained a pint of Peppermint Schnaups, half a tray of ice cubes, a few eggs, a carton of milk, and a package of bacon. (most of which had been BORROWED from the Joshua Tree Circle K on the drive in.)
We set up the tent, fired up the party bowl and the stove with bacon sizzling....
And Yabo wanders in....
HEY GUYS!!!!!!!!!!! GLAD TO SEE YOU GUYS MADE IT!!! We're headed into the Wonderlands tomorrow, and we've got some SECRET SH#T going on! No lie, okay, so let's keep this quiet..."
Then, he points to the sky, and says, "HOLY SH#T! It's Haleys Comet!!!!"
Like the bunch of wasted high schoolers we were, We look up, and in a flash, half a pound of semi-cooked bacon is gone, and he looks at us like a chipmunk with a greasy smile....
That night as I sat by the light of the hissing Coleman lantern, with those little flying bugs popping on the mantles...I penned on the inside cover of the old Orange JTCG:
Yabo's a man who climbs rocks
He carries his home in a box
He walks up in bare feet
Asks for something to eat
And spits while he eats and he talks.....
Nobody ever wrote a f-ing poem about me. Probably not about you either. Though I think there was one written about Largo along the lines of: "there once was a man from Upland. He opened his mouth and put his foot up-in...or something along those lines.
I don't recall for some reason.
Anyway, those were some special times, and I guess deep down in my psyche, I must have known Yabo was not to last, but I must have also known enough, even at that time and age, that I needed to make a note......Lest we forget.
I'll dig through our crap and see if we can't ring up a few old memories.....
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 28, 2006 - 12:53am PT
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Go baby go.
We're all ears Uplander.
This site is big fun.
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Uplander
Social climber
Upland
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Jun 28, 2006 - 01:01am PT
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Roy-tard-buster, I told Keith you wanted me to lay a sloppy one on him, and he said he'd prefer you give it to him personally!
JL is supposed to be back in the states this weekend. Maybe we can get him, Mike L, and any of the other old guys together for dinner, huh? You know, a knitting party!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 28, 2006 - 01:07am PT
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We can compare yarns!
I'm in.
I live in Colorado,
My folks are still out by Pasadena.
Once a year, winter, I'm there.
Vogel and I were not sure how to reach you guys when a big bash got put together recently.
Email me and we'll do it.
Nighty-Nite.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 28, 2006 - 10:11am PT
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Hey Ed,
That was pretty heartfelt stuff you just wrote.
Love is as love does I suppose.
A lot of us recognized the defining differences in risk between a life spent cragging vs alpinism.
'Glad you chose the former 'cause you substantially increased the odds of our current opportunity to enjoy your company.
On a lighter note, careful how you segregate the Stonemasters; upthread 50 posts and two threads left Largo pretty much gave me a Katsu for doing that!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 28, 2006 - 10:32am PT
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Tar - John has a view of the Stonemasters which is quintessential for that time, it was something that was shared, a community intent in pushing beyond the boundaries. So When I think of the Stonemasters I think of blowing by the boundaries of what was considered to be the most difficult climbs, the limits of climbing, defined by a long tradition. The Stonemasters were willing and able to look at climbing in a different way then the majority of climbers at that time, and really push climbing to a new level of difficulty, to open the doors to the next level, as it were. At the time it was considered daring, probably even unsafe, the modern irony is that John Long has published the most thorough discussions of rock climbing safety that have ever existed based on the thoughtful experience of a climbing life pushing the limits of difficulty.
Pushing beyond the known boundaries and describing the personal experience is what we know as the adventure genre. Something I had always been interested in as a kid, so it was natural for me to take up as soon as I could become indepedent. While I did many adventursome things, climbing being one of them, I never took my climbing to the limts, I never participated in pushing the limits of climbing. While I am sure I would have been "welcome" into the fold of the Stonemasters at that time, I never did participate in adventure at that level.
Not to say I haven't had my adventures... but to look at the North Face of Mt. Alberta, stand next to it, and think of climbing it in any manner, you have to have something inside of you that says you will find a way to the top, and accept the idea that you may not, and not just that you won't find a way up, but that you won't find a way back.
Pushing the boundaries means having to deal with uncertainty, it is the very nature of going beyond the boundaries. It is the feeling of the first time we walk down the street, alone, as a child to a new block. Some kids do this easily, some never do... some are in between.
In that sense, I was never a Stonemaster.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 28, 2006 - 10:57am PT
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Nice Ed,
I pretty much agree and was jesting about...
By the time "my" generation was in full swing, with the advent of friends and their established use, things became a bit more routine and perhaps just a tad less pioneer like.
Of course that depended upon our application of vision.
We were lucky enough to be involved in some harvesting of new terrain, sometimes on lead with a drill.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jun 28, 2006 - 10:57am PT
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I think you have it wrong, there, Ed. The reason you weren´t a Stonemaster is that we somehow never ran into you, even though I went to college and grad school right there in Claremont. If we´d ever hooked up you´d have been drawn into the vortex of the thing, like it or not. But that was then and what matters is what´s happening now, and in that context we´re reading about your exploits and adventures all the time, so you got there without us after all. But it would hae been fun to have had you along back in the day.
JL
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 28, 2006 - 11:01am PT
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Invoking The Perennial in us there John?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 28, 2006 - 11:20am PT
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As you say, that was then.... and I do have adventures now and enjoy sharing them with you all. And I have to say that I am completely comfortable with the choices I made. It is not judgemental, it just is.
But this is getting pretty heavy. I have to find a bit of whimsy to inject here soon. All I wanted to make sure was the LEB's inference in the first post was explained. While I have participated in climbing at that time, it was a very different time. We were a small band, several small bands, and found each other, or not, in a haphazard manner.
What is fantastic now as never before, is that all these experiences can be shared. That is a wonderful feature of the SuperTopo Forum and the greater internet experience...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jun 28, 2006 - 11:56am PT
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Hey Ed,
I think it's just getting good here.
Never mind any of us per our involvement in a personal way (and the good stuff is always personal), but there is a loose dialectic coming into focus here, which is opening the heart of the matter.
JL's original cast was for some or all of us to offer our perspectives on what the Stonemaster thing was (is) all about.
I think it's happening now.
Cool!
Here's the original post by JL:
"Anyone out there with old (before, say, 1975) Stonemaster stories, I'd love to hear them as I'm slowly trying to put something together. Hearing other perspectives might help trigger some long lost memories. The Stonemasters were always as much a frame of mind as anything else, but what folks remember--especially in terms of anecdotes, or what they thought the Stonemasters actually were, or stood for--might help give some little shape to what feels like a very amorphous subject".
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Nov 13, 2012 - 11:50pm PT
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blimp
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Blakey
Trad climber
Sierra Vista
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Nov 15, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
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^^^^
'Best sport I know for that, except perhaps (I am told) repeated CQ combat'.
Welll, both require a requisite amount of skill and luck, and like in climbing the balance or requirement between the two can subtly change.
But while it may seem, or feel like it, climbs aren't actually trying to kill you. The bad guys usually/always are!
Steve
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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Nov 15, 2012 - 06:36pm PT
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LEB don't blaspheme here!
The stonemasters and all the early climbers in jtree from the 70's are inspiring to most of us. I am also inspired by the men on the cutting edge from John Muir, Chuck Wilts, Robbins, Harding Mallory, etc but most inspired by the stonemasters and Osman, Reardon and the people on the back of the new JT guidebook because I cut my teeth in JT and Tahquitz.
Take your hating someplace else!!
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Nov 15, 2012 - 10:14pm PT
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2006 GAHD!!!
So.... as far as I can determine.... and as far as this fine thread has established.
Craig Fry founded the Sheepbuggerers.
Everything else is superfluous nonsense.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Nov 15, 2012 - 10:16pm PT
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oh.... and perhaps MOST importantly.. This is LEB's finest contribution to Supertopo.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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Nov 15, 2012 - 10:29pm PT
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Craig Fry founded the Sheepbuggerers.
Everything else is superfluous nonsense.
I have just re-read this thread and it triggered some old memories of Craig and his band of Buggerers. His braying was legendary and when pressed on just how he became the head of the Buggerers he would use Largo as an excuse. Seems Largo declared him the head buggerer one day up at Suicide Rock during a particularly spirited round of goat noises, all emanating from Craig Fry. We were really too young to understand just what he was on about, but the legend lives on, and on real quiet nights you can still hear his mournful call.
Edit: hahahaha! Craig was writing his deal above as I was writing mine! Simul-post!
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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Nov 15, 2012 - 11:05pm PT
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Another weird twist is all the Sheep Buggerers, including their leader Craig Fry, were members of the Young Republicans based out of Pacoima, Ca. The chapter was eventually folded when the Buggerers revolted against their right wing leader and became mostly left leaning sackless slab climbers of no real note.
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Anxious Melancholy
Mountain climber
Between the Depths of Despair & Heights of Folly
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Nov 15, 2012 - 11:08pm PT
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Meanwhile, the river flowed, and while those tossed upon the banks attracted attention, the majority caught eddies, navigated the riffles, and thoroughly enjoyed our ignorant passage. (Speaking as 1972 Tahquitz/Suicide/JT floatsum)
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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Nov 16, 2012 - 10:14pm PT
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The rundown:
Sheep Buggerers and other hanger ons including the JoeBoys and the Uplanders:
The Driver
The Moon
The Manx
The Boxer
The Fish
The Creature
The Maiden
Dere
The Shake Bro
SwellyMon
ButtF*#kleman
Freriks
Tony Monteil
The Watusi
Keith Cunning
Ed Kaufer
RoyBoy
That Russian Guy Joe Kiss
The Keg Head
FlairDog aka Larry Loads
Craig Fry (the leader)
Joe Hedge
Probably more but I'm cooking dinner......
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splitter
Trad climber
da'Raven / Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Nov 16, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
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Speaking of "Sheep Buggerer lore" ...
...i hear she's writing a 'tell all' book!
;)
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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Nov 16, 2012 - 10:48pm PT
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Damn....
Just added Joe Hedge
Then you have:
The Inflatable Man
The Human Drug Machine
The Simpleton
Doogan the Tin Man
The Frog
Dick Cilley, second in command to Craig
Tom Grimes
Kevin Powell
The San Diego Bent
The Almondjoybar Brothers
Doc of Shock
Brother Gaines
The Ruby DuLuxe
Doug the Slug Zeisner (2nd strongest man in the world)
The Schmutzfink
Herman the German
That one dude with the big hand... aka "The Hand"
Toe Tag Tom
Luke the Fluke
Karl; with a K
Nay Gro
Dave and Steve Tapes
Them girls that liked Mowtown....
The Old Ass Hippes,
The Bone Tipson or Nardson or Springs
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splitter
Trad climber
da'Raven / Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Nov 16, 2012 - 10:50pm PT
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^ don't forget to add 'Sexie Jtree Sadie' to that list!!
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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Nov 16, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
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Craig, it all started with some Yabo fixation and then Bridwells forearms or something. That LEB was really something. I think it was actually the Creech trolling you specifically.
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splitter
Trad climber
da'Raven / Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Nov 16, 2012 - 11:04pm PT
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She was a psychopath. It was pure pandering...! And speaking of "pandering" if I was yous's guys, I would add SJS to that list before she feels left out/ostracized, and turns to LEB (collaborates) for help in writing that 'tell all' book! just sayin'!
Get her back on your side. Sweet talk her. Butter her up a little (perhaps a poor choice of words). lol
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Nov 16, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
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WTF - LBJ?
loved his dogs, never cut off any baby's heads
just took the folks in high places and shined a light in their beds
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splitter
Trad climber
da'Raven / Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Nov 16, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
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SJS??? who is she? Sexie Jtree Sadie
edit: come on Craig, denial can only go so far (they got DNA tests, etc, these days) ...just sayin'!
edit: zBro' - evidently that ^ was a date night!
SJS usually cud be found wearing FiveTen Stealth Slippers while hangin' wit da' Sheep Buggerer crew, bitd!
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Nov 16, 2012 - 11:46pm PT
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^uh, do you guys need special shoes for that?
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 16, 2012 - 11:50pm PT
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Mussy et. al, I have to say that some of the funnest days of my life were spent climbing in that scene and hearing the rants filled with those names...so many good laughs. My ribs ached.
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 16, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
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Okay, Craig. Now you're starting something. Don't even try.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Nov 17, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
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These guys don't even know what they are talkin' about. To leave me off the list (of the "Buggerers", under the King Craig) shows them up to be total frauds.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Feb 21, 2013 - 11:20pm PT
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Dick Cilley's name came up tonight and wondered if anyone's heard from the dude? How is the drifter? Like to keep track of this community of .......yo fill in the blank. Cheers, lynne
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| Messages 1 - 169 of total 169 in this topic |
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SuperTopo on the Web
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vehicles and adventures in vehicles, with a subthread on uses and abuses of various Volkswagens
Let us know!