Rattlesnake Canyon closed?

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Mungeclimber

Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 9, 2013 - 06:48am PT
Just watching morning news, and it said due to graffiti it was closed.

Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Apr 9, 2013 - 06:53am PT
There is graffiti up there.

I don't see how "closing" the canyon solves anything, nor do I see exactly how they could enforce it.

Vandals aren't usually the type that follows the rules.
moosedrool

climber
Stair climber, lost, far away from Poland
Apr 9, 2013 - 06:54am PT
Finally!

I hate rattle snakes!

;)
rincon

Trad climber
SoCal
Apr 9, 2013 - 06:57am PT
http://www.latimes.com/news/science/sciencenow/sci-sn-joshua-tree-park-graffiti-20130408,0,7980384.story
!!!!
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 07:15am PT
Thx Rincon.
covelocos

Trad climber
Nor Cal
Apr 9, 2013 - 08:06am PT
Credit: covelocos

Ummm... Nature?!?
ana dablam

climber
mother earth
Apr 9, 2013 - 08:13am PT
very sad.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 9, 2013 - 08:13am PT
The LA Times article says the perps were bragging about their exploits on
'social media'. I think we have a new paradigm for 'pathetic'.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 9, 2013 - 08:13am PT
We were up there Sat, and it was depressing to see as we rambled back down the canyon after climbing. Not much of it, and concentrated right near the waterfall/potholes but already spreading since the last time I was up there in the fall.

Not sure WTF they think "closing" the area will do. And I have no plans to obey said closure either. Closure is not an acceptable management strategy for a public resource where 99.99% of users are not part of the problem.

The LA Times article says the perps were bragging about their exploits on 'social media'

Then go f*#king arrest them, and stop with the knee jerk bs of "closing" it to the rest of us.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 9, 2013 - 08:17am PT
The Park Service should be encouraging more real nature lovers to go up there
especially if they have cameras.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Apr 9, 2013 - 08:23am PT
I wonder how they convince themselves that sh#t is o.k. to do
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 9, 2013 - 08:42am PT
The grafitti in question was done in '92 and '94 ( according to the dates painted ). And just now, twenty years later, they get around to addressing the problem?

No wonder everything's so f*#ked-up in Joshua Tree.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 9, 2013 - 08:48am PT
Chaz, the article says "damage has now affected archaeological sites."
ana dablam

climber
mother earth
Apr 9, 2013 - 08:50am PT
those are their birth dates.
dikhed

climber
Apr 9, 2013 - 08:57am PT
sorry, that sh#t wasn't done twenty years ago and i agree with eciya
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 9, 2013 - 08:59am PT

Closing it off isn't going to do anything but make it easier for the "taggers"(???) to not get caught on their next outting...


coz

Gym climber
Belmont
Apr 9, 2013 - 09:06am PT
For all of you on this forum who are so cuddly with the Park Service and their policing of climbers and other user groups, let this be a wake up call.

You need to keep your problems off line and participate in all the advocacy groups well in place, that have been defending your rights to climb for years.

The Park Circus is not your friend.

This is our public lands, the ranger are paid by us and it is are constitutional right to use it.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Apr 9, 2013 - 10:04am PT
This is our public lands, the ranger are paid by us and it is are constitutional right to use it.

Unfortunately, the taggers thought the same thing.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 9, 2013 - 10:06am PT
FWIW,

The grafiti on Barker Dam has exploded exponentialy since they put a fence around it.

Closing the area won't help.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 9, 2013 - 10:09am PT


Closing it will only make the young testosterone overloaded MoFo's want to play even more...

A CHALLENGE of sorts...

Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 9, 2013 - 10:16am PT
Me thinks this is all leading up to a possible entrance fee at Indian Cove . The NPS will use the vandalism as a justification.
dikhed

climber
Apr 9, 2013 - 10:17am PT
more like estrogen filled because that sh#t is for pussies
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Apr 9, 2013 - 10:18am PT
Me thinks this is all leading up to a possible entrance fee at Indian Cove . The NPS will use the vandalism as a justification.
dikhed

climber
Apr 9, 2013 - 10:19am PT
good point, Ward ...hope you weren't too hard on the beaver last night
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 9, 2013 - 10:25am PT
Aaaaand I hope you got some dick-head
dikhed

climber
Apr 9, 2013 - 10:48am PT
good one...interesting you would hope that ...nttiawwt
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 9, 2013 - 10:55am PT
Need a few of these, or a lower cost alternative


http://www.deluxecctv.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1755&gclid=CNyp4OWTvrYCFeN_QgodN00AHA


Some in the popular taging locations, and some in the parking lot to record lic #s
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 9, 2013 - 10:57am PT
Nawww,, just get a small dedicated group, and go moonlightin...Find em, break their arms, paint them with their own "colors" and send em packin..
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 9, 2013 - 10:58am PT



"Need a few of these, or a lower cost alternative


http://www.deluxecctv.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1755&gclid=CNyp4OWTvrYCFeN_QgodN00AHA


Some in the popular taging locations, and some in the parking lot to record lic #s "
...




^^^

That would be hilarious to do...

and actually NOT a bad idea!!!...

LOL!!!...

locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 9, 2013 - 11:00am PT


"Nawww,, just get a small dedicated group, and go moonlightin...Find em, break their arms"...


















































Then get arrested and go to JAIL...(Which would be well DESERVED!!! Violence is NOT the fuking answer!!!)...



ladyscarlett

Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
Apr 9, 2013 - 11:12am PT
I wonder if tagging would go down if paint cans weighed 10lbs a can...

too bad

guess this means I have to put my hiking shoes on to get to the pretty rocks!

cheers

ls
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Apr 9, 2013 - 12:02pm PT
LADY SCARLETT ARE YOU TRYING TO TAKE AWAY OUR PAINT CANS?

GOOD LUCK PRYING MY PAINT FROM MY COLD DEAD FINGERS.


This country was FOUNDED on paint!! Many of the founding fathers painted their homes and various items, I personally have a safe in my basement (next to 10 years worth of canned goods, a generator and a framed picture of Ron Reagan) with 3 gallons of paint after YOUR stupid politics raises the price again!

ladyscarlett

Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
Apr 9, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
I'd not even TRY to take away your paint cans...

hell, those things weigh a LOT!!

and I'd probably break a nail trying something like that against you big paint can-lifting strongmen...

:P
cheers!

ls
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 9, 2013 - 12:41pm PT
ok Locker, ill compromise,, just PAINT em with their own colors and TELL them, next time its yur arms..!;-)
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 9, 2013 - 12:49pm PT
Clearly there is no fail safe way to stop taggers at JT.
But with a little bit of dogged commitment by the NPS, much can be done to lessen the amount.

Anyone who has been confronted by graffiti in their community knows two things:

1) The taggers are usually the same very small group of people.
2) if the graffiti is not removed promptly ASAP the problem will just snowball and this will result:

Barker Dam, Joshua Tree
Barker Dam, Joshua Tree

To deal with the taggers themselves is difficult to be sure.
But removing the vandalism immediately with daily monitoring is a no brainer.

I think the NPS in JT has been punting this problem.

Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Apr 9, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
Ever since Santa Clara County Parks printed signs and built a gate to seal off access to Summit Rock, the taggers and bottle breakers have been having a field day. The graffiti has spread and spread. It's just that climbers are so easy to identify as a user group that can be kept out of an area. A tagger at night with a spray can is a lot harder to catch than a climber with ropes and equipment. Climbers just need to insist on their identity as a valid recreational user group, just like mountain bikers and trail runners and dog walkers and equestrians. Those other groups are not labeled as "outlaws", only climbers.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 9, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
Thanks Mr Milktoast and others. I thought the paint was some sort of shithead summit register, it never occurred to me they'd mark their birthdates there.

Assuming it is birthdays, and assuming they have access to the names of these punks through "social media", matching identities should be simple.

Around here, they have to wind razor wire up and down the signposts on the freeways to deter the artistic little acrobats from marking up the signs with their scrawl. As you can see, it's not working very well.

I don't know how they're going to keep people out of Rattlesnake Canyon without it ending up being more effort than simply monitoring the taggers favorite targets for vandals.
Nobacon

climber
Apr 9, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
The so called 'park rangers' who rarely leave their vehicles don't even stop the very obvious violations. I have seen kids riding bikes offtrail at Hidden Valley, and a guy riding his horse through the desert (off trail) inside the park just past the entrance kiosk. But since we don't fund the parks, libraries, museums, research............... what do we expect?

And then, there is the issue of what happened at at Queen Mountain! (Shame on those climbers!)
coz

Gym climber
Belmont
Apr 9, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
Only God can close Rattlesnake Canyon, I'll go there any dam time I please, ranger closure or whatever, it's my land and I intend to use it.

The arrogance of the Park Circus never fails to amaze me.

locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 9, 2013 - 04:14pm PT

There are a lot of nice climbs back there...

If I were in the area, the closure wouldn't stop me either...

I'm with Dick Tracy on this one!!!...



coz

Gym climber
Belmont
Apr 9, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
Locker,

Give me a heads up and will go pull down hard. LOL

But, really... we can get arrested together and make a statement, maybe bring Generation Me out of their coma.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 9, 2013 - 05:29pm PT

coz...(Edited: Oops!!! I meant Dick Tracy)...

Seriously...

If I were out there I'd join you in a heartbeat on that one...

I think it is ridiculous to close the Canyon due to a sh!thead or two...





EDITED:

"Give me a heads up and will go pull down hard."...

So long as you can keep up with me...

I'm doing 5.2+'s these days...

hossjulia

Trad climber
Where the Hoback and the mighty Snake River meet
Apr 9, 2013 - 06:17pm PT
Closing it because they don't have the budget to do anything else. Fack, maybe up the ante and put up signs to the effect, which we all know they can't enforce. Better, $1,000 reward for info leading to arrest and conviction. Then the taggers need to do 100 hours Community Service in Josh, cleaning up that shit!

Lack of respect due to lack of education due to one f*#ked up society and an out of control ego.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 9, 2013 - 06:18pm PT
Wasn't me!
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Apr 9, 2013 - 06:42pm PT
Yeah, saw this crap when I was up there a few weeks ago. It was pretty low in the canyon but very obvious. Not art by any means.

Not sure how closing the canyon will do any good.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 9, 2013 - 07:04pm PT
So if ese and his homies tag the entrance signs and the kiosk are they going to close the whole park?
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 9, 2013 - 07:19pm PT

"So if ese and his homies"...

Seems a little racist...




It was probably some low class Caucasian meth head that "Tagged" Rattlesnake Canyon...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 9, 2013 - 08:00pm PT
By their script

ye shall know them.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 9, 2013 - 08:09pm PT
"So if ese and his homies"...
Seems a little racist
In LA everybody is a homie. I have grocery clerks calling me "homie".

wTF?

Wooooo....It's soooo racist.

Get outta here.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Apr 9, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
Let's get 50 people to form a conga line on South of Heaven, coz can ropegun!

That thing looks neat-O.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 9, 2013 - 08:29pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#298149
Let's get 50 people to form a conga line on South of Heaven, coz can ropegun!

That would go good on the face left of 200 Motels on Rattlesnake Buttress.
Killer hike. Hahahaha
The death hike and wilderness rappelling .

Anyone ever been up there?


Some of the resident wildlife.

We should be lucky he hasn't been tagged.


Very, very, very cool.

coz

Gym climber
Belmont
Apr 10, 2013 - 10:30am PT
I wish I was still in that kinda of shape mister Davis, but if people are into it, I'll go climbing as a protest.

It is just brain dead to close an area to stop taggers, they will just go else where, after all it's a big Park.

Funny BITD, when there was no Park Circus, the place was quiet, and had little tourist activity, the idea that somehow the Park is protecting the Park is a bit ironic.

Has anyone spoken to our climbing ranger, and got the inside scoop on the closure.

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 10, 2013 - 11:34am PT
I wish I was still in that kinda of shape mister Davis, but if people are into it, I'll go climbing as a protest.

Coun't me in Coz.

locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 10, 2013 - 11:37am PT
"Wooooo....It's soooo racist.

Get outta here."
...



Hey HOMO... (Oops!!! I meant "HOMIE" and that was a bit bigoted of me)...

Has anyone told you lately (Like in the past three minutes) that you're a fuking IDIOT???...

Just wondering...


;-)



Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 10, 2013 - 11:39am PT
Anyone ever been up there?

Yeah, was up at South of Heaven on this past Sat. Great rock, great line, and beta intensive, cryptic movment that gets harder and harder the higer you climb as a rail type feature on the right diminishes. One of the two fixed pins is broken, but both of them are unnecessary as you can plug bomber finger sized cams right next to them.

That face left of 200Motels etc, is a Gaines 12a slab pitch. There was actually someone on it, trying to TR it when we were walking back down Sat. They appeared to be flexible (judging by the crazy high stepping going on), but were struggling for sure.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 10, 2013 - 12:22pm PT
That face left of 200Motels etc, is a Gaines 12a slab pitch. There was actually someone on it, trying to TR it when we were walking back down Sat. They appeared to be flexible (judging by the crazy high stepping going on), but were struggling for sure.

The rock is really smooth up there ,almost like Yosemite granite. The route goes over those little mini-overhangs. We flopped around on TR on the Gaines route as well.
200 Motels is an excellent route. Very aesthetic and straightforward. So is Taken For Granite.
The hike up there , once you leave the main arroyo, is devious to follow and involves plenty of hideous bush whacking . My partner ran into a nasty hornets nest. Hahaha. We both almost fell over a 20 ft. drop frantically trying to get away.

If the NPS closes the road to Rattlesnake Canyon, presumably at the point where the road leaves the main camping ground area near the Short Wall, anyone willing to run that blockade has a hell of a hike ahead of them.


TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 10, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
Adds what maybe a mile- two miles of flat road walking.

This will probably lead to other gates being left locked as well.

Hey, the cameras work.

http://www.myfoxny.com/story/21932631/maine-hermit-living-in-wild-for-27-years-arrested
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 10, 2013 - 02:09pm PT

"anyone willing to run that blockade has a hell of a hike ahead of them."...


Fuking A!!!...

Just get me a wheelchair and an O2 tank and I'm fuking GUD ta go!!!...


Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 10, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
Just get me a wheelchair and an O2 tank and I'm fuking GUD ta go!!!...

Hahaha.
Actually TGT is correct it would only add 1-2 miles of flat hiking , before and after the Canyon itself.
We could get a wheelchair down that road.
NPS trucks chasing a dude in a wheelchair. I can just see it now.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 10, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
Shut the road, problem solved. Any other solution costs money, which is not forthcoming.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 12, 2013 - 12:05am PT
The people responsible need to be prosecuted.

"A visitor etches graffiti on a rock in Rattlesnake Canyon..."



http://www.pe.com/local-news/local-news-headlines/20130411-region-vandalism-closes-parts-of-joshua-tree-national-park.ece

Visitor my ass! This punk is a f*#king VANDAL. ( and actually WORSE than sh#t, because sh#t biodegrades by itself in a relatively short time )

By hiding the identity of this vandal,the Press-Enterprise newspaper out of Riverside is an accomplice in this vandalism, and should be made to pay the price. Janet Zimmerman, "reporter", should do time in a Federal Prison for conspiring in this crime.

To Janet Zimmerman "reporter", getting *the story* is more important leaving things as they were.
FreeCoffee

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, CA
Apr 12, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
The press release and a map.
http://www.nps.gov/jotr/parknews/rattlesnake_canyon_closed.htm

It is sadly true. Rattlesnake Canyon will be closed to all until April 30. By then all of the graffiti should be cleaned up.

The closure includes all climbing in the canyon, accessing the Wonderland via the canyon, all the newly bolted routes in and around Boortemus and Iceberg Boulders, and access to the sport climbs on the hillside. (Bolting policy http://www.nps.gov/jotr/planyourvisit/fixed_anchors.htm )

Please respect all closures.

Thanks to Allied Climbers of San Diego who offered to do a cleanup in Rattlesnake Canyon. Also to Robert Fonda and Kai at Nomad Ventures who reported some of the graffiti. This time, we will be using some students from an urban school in San Francisco for the clean-up.

If you would like to volunteer to help clean-up graffiti in the park (there are many other places aside from Rattlesnake) please let me know.

Also, if you see graffiti please take a picture and GPS coordinates and report it to the park.

Other comments can be directed to JTree's superintendent, Mark Butler: mark_butler@nps.gov

Thank you very much,

Bernadette Regan
JT Climbing Ranger

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 12, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
Climbing Ranger.
With all due respect, why is it nessary to CLOSE the place?

Is it S.O.P. ?????
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 12, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
PROPS

Thanks to Allied Climbers of San Diego who offered to do a cleanup in Rattlesnake Canyon. Also to Robert Fonda and Kai at Nomad Ventures who reported some of the graffiti. This time, we will be using some students from an urban school in San Francisco for the clean-up
coz

Gym climber
Belmont
Apr 12, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
Yes, in all respect B, do tell...
FreeCoffee

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, CA
Apr 12, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
Guyman,

The vandalism is under investigation and Rattlesnake Canyon is considered a crime scene, hence the closure.

Bernadette

pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Apr 12, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
Bernadette thank's for conducting an investigation.


p.s. do u think when u have some time to get down to stoney point to perform an investigation about all of the graffitti on our rocks?
coz

Gym climber
Belmont
Apr 12, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
There you go Guy, now stand down son! LOL : )
coz

Gym climber
Belmont
Apr 13, 2013 - 09:45pm PT
bump
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 13, 2013 - 09:50pm PT
Here's a link to the closure map

http://www.nps.gov/jotr/parknews/upload/rattlesnake_closure_map.pdf
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Apr 13, 2013 - 10:22pm PT
Chaz that picture you posted is not Rattlesnake Cyn, it's Barker Dam. As far as I know there are no chiseled graffiti's in Rattlesnake.

Regarding our climbing ranger Bernadette, she's cool. She is in the rare and somewhat odd position of being both a government official and a climber. Of course being in this position is her choice. Anyway these closure decisions obviously are not hers but she is left with the job of informing us. Don't shoot the messenger, so to speak. We're lucky to have her there.

Personally I think the closure is heavy handed. Of course if you look at the closure map you can see that the beautiful steep shady north facing cliffs of Indian Country are still open, although an inventive approach will be needed to avoid the closure area.

Thanks to the people and organizations who plan to clean up this vandalism.

Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Apr 14, 2013 - 05:45am PT
By hiding the identity of this vandal,the Press-Enterprise newspaper out of Riverside is an accomplice in this vandalism, and should be made to pay the price. Janet Zimmerman, "reporter", should do time in a Federal Prison for conspiring in this crime.

Internet lawyers are always good for a laugh.

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 15, 2013 - 11:24am PT
OK... a crime scene. I get it.

...trying to find the barn door, after the cow walked away. 5 years ago....




Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 15, 2013 - 11:28am PT
I still maintain that they should allow business as usual - the more good
people that are up there with cameras, the better. That assumes they would
have the cojones to photograph the perps or phone 911.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 15, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
This is a comically ridiculous response by the NPS, as seems to be the norm for the agency. Not blaming Bernadette, but hopefully she can communicate the sentiment to her flat-hat overlords.

Aside from the laughable long term closure as a "crime scene" bit (it'd take you about 15min from the car to document all the stuff with a camera), what in the world does the Boortemus and Iceberg boulders have to do with anything? They are probably a mile from the grafitti, not even in the canyon itself but on the plains well away from the mouth, with no grafitti anywhere even remotely close to there.
khanom

Trad climber
Greeley Hill
Apr 15, 2013 - 12:18pm PT
We know perfectly well that there will be no LEOs camping out there 24x7, which means the closure only has the effect of making tagging more appealing while keeping out the people who might help catch the perps.

I'd not be the least bit surprised if there was a huge increase in vandalism -- if not in the canyon then elsewhere in the park.

I don't just think the closure is heavy-handed -- it will make the situation worse. Of course the "flat-hatted overlords" are more interested in covering their asses and job preservation than effectively combating the problem.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 15, 2013 - 12:22pm PT

I am fuking cracking up at this one...


"OK... a crime scene. I get it.

...trying to find the barn door, after the cow walked away. 5 years ago...."
...


LMAO!!!...




EDITED:

"what in the world does the Boortemus and Iceberg boulders have to do with anything? They are probably a mile from the graffiti"...

^^^

That one's getting the SAME reaction...

LOL!!!...
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 15, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
p.s. do u think when u have some time to get down to stoney point to perform an investigation about all of the graffitti on our rocks?

OK. I admit that I haven't climbed at Stoney Point since I left the LA area 30 years ago, but back then, the graffiti allowed us to identify certain routes (e.g, the Turlock Boulder and the Todd Traverse). It seemed part of the local ambiance then, rather like the carved initials in Telephone Pothole.

Have the taggers hit there, too? In any case, Rattlesnake Canyon taggers are, as Chaz says, merely vandals. Despite the sympathy for taggers in the "Dulfersitz" thread, tagging represents nothing more than malicious selfishness.

John
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 16, 2013 - 07:46am PT
If you would like to volunteer to help clean-up graffiti in the park (there are many other places aside from Rattlesnake) please let me know.

Sorry, we prefer to sit on our asses and bitch about the park service. Thanks for asking, though.
10b4me

Ice climber
Happy Boulders
Apr 16, 2013 - 07:53am PT
Sorry, we prefer to sit on our asses and bitch about the park service. Thanks for asking, though.

+1
khanom

Trad climber
Greeley Hill
Apr 16, 2013 - 08:38am PT
Hate to break it to you but there are MANY on this forum both criticize and help out. There is much about NPS and it's management of our parks that is worthy of constructive criticism -- there is also much to be admired.

If not for a watchful public no government agency or function would ever serve the public good.

NPS is populated by many very good people with the best of intentions -- witness Bernadette -- but it's structure lends itself to management by self-serving under-qualified bureaucrats more interested in self preservation thant park preservation and self advancement than access.

JOTR is a fine example of this tendency. It must be kept in check by the light of public discussion.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Apr 16, 2013 - 08:46am PT
this SAME logic has been applied to ALL US gun owners. Penalize the masses over isolated incidents.
stephenbmx1@yahoo.com montoya

Sport climber
texas
Apr 16, 2013 - 10:02am PT
f*#king ghetto sh#t machines, too bad they cant just wash it off with paint thinner and gasoline or something and call it a day, but instead ruin the fun for everyone, let the ghetto faggots win
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 16, 2013 - 10:17am PT

"too bad they cant just wash it off with paint thinner and gasoline"...


If they did that, they'd probably call in the HAZMAT team and close the entire park...

rincon

Trad climber
SoCal
Apr 16, 2013 - 11:00am PT
Hate to break it to you but there are MANY on this forum both criticize and help out. There is much about NPS and it's management of our parks that is worthy of constructive criticism -- there is also much to be admired.


+1
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 16, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
Khanom.... +1 +1
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Apr 16, 2013 - 06:38pm PT
Wow. This thing is all over the national news now.

Seeing this, I think the Park Service made a huge mistake by going hyper public with this. They've made these idiots the most famous taggers ever!

This should have been kept on the low-low. Investigated, cleaned up and forgotten except maybe for a very discreet camera here and there.

Oh well...
khanom

Trad climber
Greeley Hill
Apr 16, 2013 - 07:10pm PT
Indeed!

If I were slightly more cynical than I already am, I'd say Mr. Butler and the other folks in charge are more interested in national attention and the budget and career advancement that follows than they are in truly protecting the park.

But I'm not that cynical, oh no.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 16, 2013 - 07:15pm PT



I say we go crash the fuking gate!!!...

























































Credit: locker
...
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Apr 16, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
If I were slightly more cynical than I already am, I'd say...

"A cynic is someone who sees things the way they really are."

Mark Twain
G Zeus

Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
Apr 16, 2013 - 10:00pm PT
What we should really do is invent time travel so we can go beat the hell out of those native american rock defacers so we don't have to see their scratchings and drawings when we're out trying to enjoy nature.

Let's see -- scratch or paint a picture on a rock a long time ago and it becomes a resource. Do it now and people want to break your arms. Take away the passage of time and it becomes a crime.

What do you think? If the NPS had a time machine would they go back and bust ancient graffiti artists? I doubt it. They (and we, apparently) have judged one culture more valuable than another. I don't hear anyone screaming to have petroglyphs and pictographs eradicated from the park.

Logic. It's awful.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 16, 2013 - 10:24pm PT
Let's see -- scratch or paint a picture on a rock a long time ago and it becomes a resource.

Native American petroglyphs are rare, as compared to contemporary urban graffiti.

The rarer some things are, the more valuable they are. Gold is of greater value than coal.

In addition, glyphs tells us much about a subject we know relatively very little about, namely, prehistoric human beings: who and where they were, and clues to what kind of lives they lived.
Native Americans lived in the Joshua Tree environment. They were not visitors there who lived in another mileau , like modern vandals. They sought to convey something about themselves and their life and death interaction with that environment.
Modern vandals are there to deface and defile. Their handiwork tells us nothing , except that some people are devoid of values and can fail to make intelligent distinctions, and wouldn't recognize 'logic' if it was spray -painted on their ass.
coz

Gym climber
Belmont
Apr 16, 2013 - 11:56pm PT
It is 100 percent stupid to close the whole canyon, Period.

I'd love to hear why the Park Service benefits the Park, Joshua Tree did well for millions of years without them.

G Zeus

Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
Apr 17, 2013 - 07:00am PT
The rarer some things are, the more valuable they are.

Not necessarily. Diamonds are hardly rare. They are expensive as hell due to clever marketing.

In addition, glyphs tells us much about a subject we know relatively very little about, namely, prehistoric human beings: who and where they were, and clues to what kind of lives they lived.

Wait. What? How can we know much and relatively very little at the same time? They tell us someone marked the rocks. They do not tell us whether their contributions were even valued by their contemporaries. For all we know it was the work of native hooligan teenagers who were roundly criticized at the time. It's called prehistory for a reason.

Native Americans lived in the Joshua Tree environment. They were not visitors there who lived in another mileau , like modern vandals

Let's go restore the rocks along the oregon trail. Those damned pioneers were just passing through. How dare they?!

They sought to convey something about themselves and their life and death interaction with that environment.

Whoa, there! Ascribing motives. Danger! Danger! Glyphs don't have annotations reading, "I did this because...." They could also mean, "I'm bored." We weren't there and we can't ask.

Modern vandals are there to deface and defile.

Really? Who stated their motives. Assumptions.

Pluck someone from the distant future who can't read, plop them down at barker dam without telling them anything, and they just might assume they are at a sacred site due to all the graffiti. It's been known to happen.












locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 17, 2013 - 07:34am PT

and then there was that dude that wrote on those rocks way off the beaten path... (In the 30's???)...

and now it is considered an historic part of the park...

I think he was just some mental case hanging there...

Just a NUT, "Tagging"...



Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 17, 2013 - 07:58am PT
^^^

The rocks of Truth and Faith. Pretty nice tirade carved into them. Worth a walk out there on a rest day.
Deekaid

climber
Apr 17, 2013 - 08:11am PT
A few good posts there Zeus and Ward. Civil (semi anyway) debate is great. The bottom line for us climbers is that it affects rock surface friction so off with their thumbs.
khanom

Trad climber
Greeley Hill
Apr 17, 2013 - 08:25am PT
The whole wait 50 years and it's historical thing is pretty sutpid, but a line has to be drawn and a distinction made. I'd imagine someone said "we have to make it simple, we can't have any nuance to this"... and as insulting as that is they are probably right.

Under current NPS rules if any of that graffiti survives until 2063 it has to be preserved. As Elcap notes there is old graffiti that is already being preserved.

At previous Yosemite Facelifts I was picking up beer cans that are now protected. Hey, I got 'em while I could.


So. Motives of the "defiler" have nothing to do with it. A tagger is communicating with the world and making a creative statement. For all we know there may be no spiritual woo woo about petroglyphs whatsoever and it's fundamentally the same thing.

Under current rules in 50 years there will be no distinction anyway.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 17, 2013 - 08:27am PT
and then there was that dude that wrote on those rocks way off the beaten path... (In the 30's???)...

Locker... that is a cool place, but Jon Samulson ... (SP?) wrote most of his stuff in the 20's....

I love the one about ... "... so where did all of our dough go?"

I don't think the NPS is doing a very good job of running any of our parks......I give them a C- at best.

How come they don't add more camping????

Heck they promote and market the place, then complain about "excess visitors" ....


10b4me

Ice climber
Happy Boulders
Apr 17, 2013 - 08:35am PT
I don't think the NPS is doing a very good job of running any of our parks......I give them a C- at best.

Mr. Keesee, what would you like to see the NPS do differently?
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 17, 2013 - 08:53am PT
Mr. Keesee, what would you like to see the NPS do differently?

First off, quit complaining about your lack of funds..... NPS rangers get new SUV's about every year.... cut that stuff out, for starters, we can all see that every year.

Stop being "campground comandos" ... Rangers run around HVG (and others like C4) with guns looking to hassle folks. When did our parks become dangerous places?

More camping....

maybe stop trying to "manage our visit"... with stuff like LOOP ROADS, or "No Parking"...Fake adobe "Ruins".. mostly just stupid stuff that makes zero sense.

I could go on and on with my bitching but it will not do any good, why you ask 5.10B?????

Are you NPS person?????

And I don't have problems with the workers, most are just trying to do a good job and follow their dreams of working in the outdoors. Its the manigers and policy setters who I think are failing...or getting a c-.

G Zeus

Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
Apr 17, 2013 - 09:05am PT
Thanks for not flaming me to a crisp.

I agree closing rattlesnake canyon is an inappropriate response by the NPS. Screwing everyone for the actions of a few can't be right.

I agree the tagging looks like hell and I prefer it wasn't there, but I also know that I am making a value judgement that needs to withstand rational scrutiny.

I admit I stirred the pot a bit on purpose. I can't stand fuzzy thinking. Please don't take it personally, Mr. Trotter.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 17, 2013 - 09:13am PT
How come they don't add more camping????


RV Lobby is stronger than outdoor gear (i.e. "Coleman") lobby?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 17, 2013 - 09:14am PT
As far as the cleanup goes give me a chopper for a day and I'll bring in a
nice sandblaster and it'll git done! And if we happen to find one of those
punks we'll give him a good scrubbing too.
nutjob

Sport climber
Almost to Hollywood, Baby!
Apr 17, 2013 - 10:39am PT
I was at Barker Dam last weekend for the first time, and I didn't notice any fences. Just an empty reservoir. There was some graffiti, but the stains on the rocks from the historical water lines was more obvious than any writing. Somewhere north on Hwy 247 there is serious painting that covers the roadside rocks. That did get my attention, and I remember thinking that I was glad it was not like that in Jtree. Funny timing.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 17, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
Elcap.... do you really think it's the RV lobby???

When they made JT a Nat Park, one of the first things they did was remove some sites in HVCG (or that might have been just before NP status).

As "managers", who have a responsibily to manage parks in our interest, closing camping sites just dose't make sense. This has been a problem for a long time.

So Elcap, I reckon it's the Motel- Hotel operators in 29, JT, Yucca Valley and Paln Springs who pull the strings.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Apr 17, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
Good points Guy.

I don't see much evidence of the RV lobby in national parks. I can't even think of a national park that has hookups.
10b4me

Ice climber
Happy Boulders
Apr 17, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
Are you NPS person?????

no, not an NPS person

And I don't have problems with the workers, most are just trying to do a good job and follow their dreams of working in the outdoors.

yet you, and others rag on the rangers all the time. granted, some LEOs are wanna be cops, and push their authority too far, but to keep harping on it gets a little old.

now, I do agree with you about a poor management policy, but the boots on the ground are only doing what they are told to do.

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 17, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
to keep harping on it gets a little old.

I'll stop harping on it when they stop f*#king doing it. It get's old harping on it? Well if gets REAL DAMN OLD experiencing it.

10b4me

Ice climber
Happy Boulders
Apr 17, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
harping on it doesn't solve the problem
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 17, 2013 - 01:13pm PT
Not necessarily. Diamonds are hardly rare. They are expensive as hell due to clever marketing.

I did not use diamonds in my comparison. I used the value comparison between gold and coal.

Wait. What? How can we know much and relatively very little at the same time? They tell us someone marked the rocks. They do not tell us whether their contributions were even valued by their contemporaries. For all we know it was the work of native hooligan teenagers who were roundly criticized at the time. It's called prehistory for a reason.

The first sentence is semantical gamesmanship that I don't want to waste time delving into further.
Yes they do tell us someone marked the rocks. Just like your birth certificate and drivers license tells us someone marked a piece of paper.
Your other comments in that paragraph are notably ignorant and uninformed and gives us an abundant clue as to why you have hitherto failed to make the critical distinction between glyphs and modern graffiti.


Whoa, there! Ascribing motives. Danger! Danger! Glyphs don't have annotations reading, "I did this because...." They could also mean, "I'm bored." We weren't there and we can't ask.

Precisely because present day researchers have thought to ascribe motives to the presence of glyphs that we have discovered important things about the culture , history, and even the historical climate of a certain region.
For instance, we know that there was a severe drought over 1000 years ago in the southwest.
We know this because of data gathered that suggests this very thing :part of the data is evidence of a contraction in the population of peoples living here and other changes. Glyphs from that time have helped to seal the deal. They are a journal of the life and death struggle I alluded to earlier.


Pluck someone from the distant future who can't read, plop them down at barker dam without telling them anything, and they just might assume they are at a sacred site due to all the graffiti. It's been known to happen.

I think we have a budding SciFi writer here.


Don't take this personal Zeus, but I don't think I've ever been confronted by someone who considers present day graffiti on the same level as prehistoric petroglyphs.
Maybe I'm overreacting.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 17, 2013 - 03:42pm PT


"Locker... that is a cool place, but Jon Samulson ... (SP?) wrote most of his stuff in the 20's...."...

Oops!!!...

I was OFF by a bit...



Yeah!!!...

Pretty cool out there for sure...

So is the well, way on the other side...

GLAD it's (SORT OF) not a popular spot to hit...

Wouldn't be long before someone fuked it up...



guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 17, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
lOCKER... Best not to speak of the many unique spots around JT.

The NPS might just remove them for safe keeping.... to some east coast museum.

Yea I know you got it off by ten years... but he did date his writings.

Hated the Government,

he was a teapartyer, I recon.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
Apr 17, 2013 - 06:28pm PT

"but he did date his writings."...

...



EDITED:

I never noticed that Dean Martin looked a little like Victor Mature...

If you watch the clip closely, occasionally you'll see it...

G Zeus

Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
Apr 19, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
Wow. Charts. I bow to your superior intellect. Buh bye.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 19, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
You know the National Park Service, by blowing this story up in the national news, has made these the most famous taggers ever.

Their "Tags" are now the most popular tags in the world.

Now, some taggers are going to "out do them"

whats next.... tag Mt. Rushmore?

Our government
khanom

Trad climber
Greeley Hill
Apr 19, 2013 - 07:23pm PT
Don't worry guyman, this provides the perfect justification for increasing the enforcement (oops, I mean "protection") budget.
10b4me

Ice climber
Happy Boulders
May 1, 2013 - 10:35am PT
Just heard that the canyon will be closed for another thirty days
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
May 1, 2013 - 10:36am PT


Here's our chance Coz!!!...

We NEED to hurry!!!...

photo not found
Missing photo ID#301035
...
FreeCoffee

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, CA
May 2, 2013 - 08:18am PT
10b4me is correct.
The closure has been extended through May.

See the press release below for details.

National Park Service
U.S. Department of the Interior Joshua Tree National Park


74485 National Park Drive
Twentynine Palms, CA 92277


contact Dave Carney
phone 760 367-5570

Joshua Tree National Park News Release



Joshua Tree National Park Announces Extension to Closure of the vandalized Rattlesnake Canyon


Since January, individuals have defaced the day use and canyon area of Rattlesnake Canyon with graffiti. This damage resulted in a three week closure of the popular hiking and day use area. Because a more extensive cleanup program is required to remediate vandalism in Rattlesnake Canyon, Joshua Tree National Park is extending the closure for an additional 30 days.

This closure includes physical access, public entry and use to protect the canyon from continued damage. The current closure was scheduled to end today but was extended through May due to the sensitive nature of several areas. These locations require a more detailed analysis and cleanup to limit additional damage.

The cleanup project began on April 8 and has largely been completed. Volunteers from across the state worked with park staff to successfully clean spray paint from numerous locations in the canyon.

The closure includes the entire day use area of Rattlesnake Canyon from the day use closure gate to the top of the canyon. Following the 30 day extension, park staff will decide if additional extensions are needed before reopening the area.


Joshua Tree National Park reminds visitors that we appreciate your assistance in watching for and reporting acts of vandalism or suspicious activity to the nearest park personnel.



# # #
04/30/13
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
May 2, 2013 - 08:30am PT
You NPS folks just roll out the LULZ, one after another. I've NEVER seen a more incomptent group. It would almost be comically entertaining if I didn't know our tax dollars were paying for this so-called "management".

ABsolutely no reason for to close it in the first place, like you can't clean grafitti off with someone walking by 50 yards away or eating at a picnic table 1/4 mi away.

Who made this closure decision? Name and official title, please.
I think it's about time we take this up the chain and engage the CoDel.
coz

Gym climber
Belmont
May 2, 2013 - 09:48am PT
I have a feeling some wanta be seal team six ranger unit, is behind this stupidity.

I'd snoop around and look for a Swain-bow in the picture.

Perhaps some major civil disobedience is in order.

All the dorks (NPS) need to do is place a few hidden camera, post a few false posts on social media and they'd catch the knuckleheads, but that would require brains.

selfish man

Gym climber
Austin, TX
Dec 11, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
heading to Jtree and just wondering if anybody knows the current status of Rattlesnake Canyon - is it still closed?
susan peplow

climber
Joshua Tree, CA
Dec 11, 2013 - 06:56pm PT
Nope it's open. Go wild and enjoy just please leave your tools & spray paint at home.

selfish man

Gym climber
Austin, TX
Dec 12, 2013 - 06:58pm PT
great, thanks!
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