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GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Apr 5, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
Go repeat that route and get back to me.
briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
Apr 5, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
Definitely hard and impressive, but if we are "categorizing" things I agree, that's not a trad climb.
j-tree

Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
Apr 5, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
Why do we care about categories again?

Is it so that we can elevate one style of climbing over another?
Seems like a douchy intent.

Is it so that we can .... that's all I have.
Douchy.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 5, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
fixed and/or preplaced gear that aren't bolts as a traditional way to climb

see Separate Reality et al
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
Apr 5, 2013 - 01:20pm PT
I don't see a pic on that page. How the hell does anyone know whether this is well protected and just merely difficult, or sparsely protected with questionable gear and still difficult?


ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 5, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
It seems if one must categorize between sport and trad then that route is certainly trad.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 5, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
Over the last 10 years the term trad has morphed. The transitional term was: "gear routes". Basically anything with gear is trad and anything goes prior to red point. (Yes, the term red point and related tactics would have divided sport from trad in the past). Thus: "hard trad" … and the on-site ground up bit seems to have been tossed out of the definition, yet that mode is still valued as a subset of trad. Essentially the definition of "trad" has softened/broadened quite a lot.

I don't have an opinion, it's just an observation.
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
sawatch choss
Apr 5, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
Go take a dump Jeff.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 5, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
Yes, it sort of has devolved into whether or not bolts are present, leaving out most style issues except for the final ascent. This of course doesn't account for traditional bolted slab climbs put up from the ground with natural runouts. Lots of modern climbers don't even know what to do with those types of climbs as a distinction, or a category. But to you and I, they are obviously trad climbs.

And specifically to your point, fixed pitons are now almost vestigial functions and typically relate to trad climbing for that reason. A piton still uses a natural weakness, so, for the sake of argument they lean toward either aid or trad. To see that argument get even further drawnout see: Pin Bolt.

If a hole is drilled and filled with a piton it's essentially a bolt.
gonzo chemist

climber
Fort Collins, CO
Apr 5, 2013 - 05:37pm PT
This is actually an interesting discussion. When I started climbing (about 10 years ago--so I guess I'm still a youngster around here), I learned that "trad" routes were routes that were climbed and protected from the ground up. Bolts placed on lead, etc. This was the tradtional way to climb. However pre-inspection or pre-placing any gear negated the definition of "traditional."

You could have "trad" routes that were climbed in a "non-trad" style. This seems to be the case I think for much of the UK climbing. The pro is generally terrible or sparse and the consequences for failure were so great that pre-inspection, top-roping and pre-placing gear is generally considered OK. And hence falls into the category of traditional (according to British history).

Tarbuster is definitely right though about newer climbers occasionally being confused. I've had many discussions with people where I explained that just because a route has bolts, doesn't mean its a "sport route." Its all dependent on the manner in which it was climbed.

Another interesting thing to think about with respect to this 5.13c route is the nature of pins that rapidly deteriorate. Hazel Findlay reported that some of the pins broke upon removal, necessitating the placement of pins in new spots. Well this begs the question, what about in another couple years when someone else decides they want to do this route? Will they have to place MORE pins b/c Findlay's are now garbage? At what point is a stainless steel bolt the best choice?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 5, 2013 - 07:07pm PT
You could have "trad" routes that were climbed in a "non-trad" style. This seems to be the case I think for much of the UK climbing. The pro is generally terrible or sparse and the consequences for failure were so great that pre-inspection, top-roping and pre-placing gear is generally considered OK. And hence falls into the category of traditional (according to British history).

And by my observation much the same has happened here: witness a majority of the hard climbing on El Capitan, whether by first free ascent or repeat, lots of pre-inspection and working from the top. Also in Eldorado Canyon, lots of "hard trad" is pre-rehearsed and inspected. I first heard this about 10 years ago from a 20 something climber in Boulder: "I'm getting into hard trad in Eldo". He didn't mean on-site performance. They consider head pointing trad.

Gear has simply been conflated with trad. Think about it: trad isn't even the norm anymore in many places. Young people often graduate from gyms to sport climbing and then into "hard trad" and they simply take their tactics with them. I think that's why the definition, or at the least usage, of the term trad has changed.

It's not an absolute; usage changes over time and this seems to be the trend, albeit probably at the higher levels.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Apr 5, 2013 - 09:02pm PT
I like the term gear climbing.


Pegs placed on rappel before TRing a route to death & head pointing with pre hung draws? Bad ass climb for sure too bad it has to be labeled as a certain style.

I could care less what its called really, I mean a "tagger" just died & North Korea is about to attack Texas, lets get our priorities straight people.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 5, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
As far as I am concerned Traditional climbing involves hammers, pitons,bolts, shoulder stands, direct aid, iceaxes, crampons,sausage, bread, cheese and anything that enables upward progress in a ground up ascent. Naturaly The white spider was my first climbing book;) That hippy crunchy version of trad with all the stupid rules and folks with inflated opinions of their STYLE of climbing being better than anyone elses to the point of bolt wars and endless bla bla bla about how we did it in the seventys. That ain't trad climbing. It's just annoying.
I got to do a few real trad climbs this winter:) Fun stuff!
More P2 madness. <br/>
Photo by Isa Oehry
More P2 madness.
Photo by Isa Oehry
Credit: tradmanclimbs
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Apr 5, 2013 - 09:25pm PT
As far as I am concerned Traditional climbing involves hammers, pitons,bolts, shoulder stands, direct aid, iceaxes, crampons


Then says:

folks with inflated opinions of their STYLE of climbing being better than anyone elses to the point of bolt wars and endless bla bla bla about how we did it in the seventys. That ain't trad climbing. It's just annoying.

Hahaha you did exactly what annoys you tradman, good one! Lol

Cool pic tho!
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 5, 2013 - 09:34pm PT
My style is not better I have no style. just saying that some wanker who throws a hissy fit over someone not climbing by his list of stupid 1970 and 1980s rules and calls themself a trad climber should be aware that folks were climbing some pretty rad stuff in the 1930s and did not have to worry about pulling the rope every time they weighted it.... So who is more traditional? The climber grabbing gear, pounding pins and doing whatever it takes to get from the bottom to the top or the climbers that have a bunch of strict rules and would rather pull the rope and go home than get to the top?
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Apr 5, 2013 - 09:41pm PT
That's an interesting point tradman, it seems golden era trad climbers do have a stricter ethical code that is still valued today & preserved by many, but does that make them more traditional than those that were there before them?? In the climbers sense of the word it appears the definition has shifted over time.

tradition[ truh-dish-uhn ]
noun
1. the handing down of statements, beliefs, legends, customs, information, etc., from generation to generation, especially by word of mouth or by practice: a story that has come down to us by popular tradition.
2. something that is handed down: the traditions of the Eskimos.
3. a long-established or inherited way of thinking or acting: The rebellious students wanted to break with tradition.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 5, 2013 - 09:42pm PT
Damn straight MadTrad!
Now pass them sausage, breads, & cheeses!
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 5, 2013 - 10:02pm PT
By that definition the clean climbing, no hangdogging or aid of any kind climbers Broke with tradition and are in fact the upstarts and Not the traditional climbers that they seem to think they are;)
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 5, 2013 - 11:51pm PT
The problem is, there is a distinct form of climbing named sportclimbing, and a nebulous catch all sucking black hole of all other forms of climbing called trad climbing.

There was no such thing as traditional climbing until sportclimbing appeared, and there really is still no such thing, at least if the term traditional has any of its traditional meaning.

Fixed pins are a traditional method of protecting free climbs, but there is no specific "traditional" style of establishing free climbs. There is an ultimate method that is ground up, no preinspection or cleaning on rappel, no aid employed for resting or placing pro, ever, at all, no holes drilled, and no falls taken - IOW the gear never comes into play other than as a life saving last resort system. Even if all these criteria were met, some guy from somewhere could argue, legitimately, that the ascent wasn't traditional because chalk, hammer, or shoes were employed.

Experienced American climbers might, maybe, be able to come up with a consensus as to the definition of traditional style, but it could never cover all the different tactics that fall short of the anything-goes-to-get-the-bolts-in style that creates sportclimbing. And if this miracle were to occur, it would surely clash with definitions of traditional climbing from around the globe.

So it's absurd to categorize free climbing as either trad or sport. It's more complicated than that - the grey area is far vaster than the black and white areas. Unless you just want to call them both free climbing.

The real tradition in climbing is for climbers to discuss just how freely and stylishly each "free climb" is done.


"Trad this, trad that - it's a lot of bloody crap."

 Jerry Moffat


IOW fixed pitons are not trad and rad, but they work well in some cases.



drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Apr 5, 2013 - 11:54pm PT
but I thought free climbing meant no rope?
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 5, 2013 - 11:56pm PT
smart azz ;)
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Apr 6, 2013 - 12:09am PT
Sorry Kevin!
Always dig your posts bro.

I think we can all agree, at least, that the route in the OP was not a sport climb.
Big props to the gal for the repeat!
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 6, 2013 - 12:41am PT
I think what's been lost is the distinction between an onsight and a redpoint, probably because the difficult "trad" climbs we hear about now are so hard a redpoint is assumed and an onsight with no pre-placed gear, inspection, rehearsal or whatever, would be extraordinary if not impossible.

Everyone knows what sport climbing is and that this impressive young lady was not sport climbing on this route. I think traditionally (ha!) we would have called it a redpoint but at sketch .13c that classification has been sent to history's dust bin, or rubbish bin if we want to stick to the UK slant of the climb.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 6, 2013 - 12:41am PT
Well said Kevin!
I love it when you get all noble and practical.

It was never called trad until there was an alternative. Basically we had free and aid. Our generation pursued and carried forth the immediate "tradition" of free climbing as refined by the likes of Robbins, Sacherer, Kamps, Powell et al.

The word "trad" always seemed kind of like an ill-fitting smock, more like a provisional gunnysack than any proper set of threads. Soon enough the whole thing splayed out into all kinds of expressions anyhow. Endeavors always evolve, while canned rules and stodgy nomenclature peel away like molted skin.
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Apr 6, 2013 - 12:43am PT
Durrance Route Piton
Durrance Route Piton
Credit: mike m
this thread needs pictures.
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Apr 6, 2013 - 12:45am PT
Credit: mike m
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Apr 6, 2013 - 12:54am PT
That's so trad.

Bolts=sportclimbing



Free climbing=no rope
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 6, 2013 - 12:59am PT
On the edge noted:
I think what's been lost is the distinction between an onsight and a redpoint, probably because the difficult "trad" climbs we hear about now are so hard a redpoint is assumed and an onsight with no pre-placed gear, inspection, rehearsal or whatever, would be extraordinary if not impossible.

That is a good distinction worth drawing specifically in regard to sketchy protection, i.e. most "modern trad", while it's also true that the new generations definitely value on-site flash. We hear about it all the time with hard sport climbing. They value it and they herald it when the on-site flash bar is pushed higher.

The "naturally" protected on-site flash does push ever higher as well. But I think you hit the nail on the head as to why the term "trad" is getting blurred.
Salamanizer

Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
Apr 6, 2013 - 01:04am PT
For some reason, I just can't bring myself to care about definitions anymore. I do my own thing. As long as you don't go around smearing your virtual poo poo on the rock, I could care less how you drag your ass up it.

On a side note... Hey Worrall, you got a topo for that thing you did on Basket Dome a few back? Thinking about giving it a run this year. Is that "trad"?
slevin

Trad climber
NYC, NY
Apr 6, 2013 - 01:22am PT
I have a limited perspective of a weakling. If you are moving upwards on the rock, you've climbed the route. For all I care you can lead it placing your own pro, pre-place the pro, top rope it, boulder it with an stunt-grade air-pad, whatever. As long as you did the moves, you climbed the route.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Apr 6, 2013 - 01:38am PT
Trad climbers got stuck with the "traditional" name as a counterpoint to sport climbing. In fact, every generation of climbers has violated tradition by choosing to abandon at least some of the cherished rules of the previous generation. This is at least partially because the previous generation had already gotten about as far as possible within the context of the rules they adhered to.

Typically, the role of the previous generation has been to complain bitterly about the transgressions of the current generation and, in so doing, prevent at least some of the outrages that result from the drive of outsize egos for accomplishment.

I think sport climbing upended this conservative process by being something different and parallel to what came before, rather than an evolution of it. Although we don't like to say so in this country, the presence of risk and the way in which it is confronted lies at the heart of what is now referred to as traditional climbing. Sport climbing has banished risk, at least the forms of risk inherent in trad climbing, in favor of other aspects of climbing, and as the sport climbing mentality spreads, it becomes increasingly difficult to even communicate about the distinctions between the genres, not least because of the irrelevant formulations such as bolts vs. gear.

Consider a trad climb with a risky section. It's been done many times, but now there is a contingent of climbers who want to put a bolt there. Why? Because that part of the climb is risky! More people could enjoy it if there was a bolt, and the community has a "right" to the route.

But the risk is exactly why the trad climbers don't want the bolt there, although somehow that never seems to be made clear. Trad climbers see controlling the risk through the use of gear that may not be bomber and the practice of self-control under pressure as one of the intrinsic challenges of the sport.

Putting in that bolt destroys part of the essence of the climb for the trad climber. People may not like this and may not agree with it, but they should at least understand that there is a genuine and irreconcilable conflict between the preservation of risk and the desire for a risk-free environment.

Saying that risk is intrinsic to trad climbing does not mean that trad climbers want arbitrary risks. Trad climbing isn't a collection of stunts like how many cars you can jump your motorcycle over. The risks of trad climbing are the ones intrinsic to the environment: unknown territory ahead, no cracks for pro, no stances to drill from. This is why those who say "just don't clip the bolt" are utterly clueless. The bolt modifies the environment and makes a former intrinsic risk into a stupid stunt.

I grew up in a time when all climbing was trad climbing. I have nothing against sport climbing, and because of the decreased risk I find it increasingly attractive as I get older and more brittle. But I also would have found the sheer pursuit of difficulty in sport climbing compelling when I was young, strong, and less likely to snap on impact. I just wish the the practitioners of the two genres would learn to respect the traditions of each (yes, sport climbing is now old enough to have traditions too) and not try to impose their perspectives and preferences on the other styles of climbing. The UK is the only country that seems to have really managed to do this.

Unfortunately, there is a substantial asymmetry in the two outlooks that puts trad climbing at an enormous disadvantage. Trad climbers, by and large, are about leaving things as they are. Sport climbing is all about permanently modifying the environment to provide a certain type of experience. Someone with a Hilti will put in a bunch of bolts somewhere, and then we hear that they should be left in because who wants to start a bolt war. According to this view, the Hilti owners have free reign to do whatever they want and the rest of the climbing community just has to be resigned to it.

Of course, the sense of entitlement that allows a self-appointed guardian of communal safety to bolt trad routes will never be fully constrained to the placement of protection. Once one type of environmental modification has been embraced, the barriers to other types become fragile, and that is why we are seeing more and more chipping, even in former bastions of traditional values like the Gunks where the owners of the land explicitly forbid such actions.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Apr 6, 2013 - 01:51am PT
Lots of wisdom here, very cool.
Brian

climber
California
Apr 6, 2013 - 01:55am PT
Harrowing mank above Tourist Trap &#40;yes, we had to rap off it&#41;.
Harrowing mank above Tourist Trap (yes, we had to rap off it).
Credit: Brian

More mank
More mank
Credit: Brian

Harrowing mank above Tourist Trap. The pins were old and suffering after many winters in the San Juans, and the rock is crumbing choss. Perfect. We had to rap of this junk, though we backed it up with a bad nut.

On a sea cliff, I'm sure the pins Hazel pulled and replaced were worse than this by an order of magnitude...
Captain...or Skully

climber
Apr 6, 2013 - 09:03am PT
People do love their categories, huh?
Sometimes even hiking involves climbing. Is THAT "trad"?
Call it what you want to, I figure. I'm just grooving about.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 6, 2013 - 09:27am PT
If I use my alpenstock to stickclip a ring pin / rawl five piece placed by roto en rap, and no one is there to see it, am I still a climber?
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
sawatch choss
Apr 6, 2013 - 09:44am PT
Thanks rgold.
Johannsolo

climber
Soul Cal
Apr 6, 2013 - 10:30am PT
Very well stated rgold.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 6, 2013 - 11:28am PT
I think we can all agree, at least, that the route in the OP was not a sport climb.

Absolutely, Jefe, as we can all agree that it wasn't a trad climb either.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Apr 6, 2013 - 11:47am PT
That term makes wanna barf. Is it just me?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 6, 2013 - 11:54am PT
There is a current term for her ascent: it was a Head Point.
People categorize simply as a means to define terms and communicate concepts. It's the very foundation of language.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 6, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
I like the old broken-eyed angle's response to this-here question:

"Beats the sh#t outta me! WTF cares? Let's go to the coffee shop, OK?"

I love the MAN K, Brian! YOU the Man!

Tap & rap! But back it up...bad nut is better than no nut.

I recall the recent Donini incident...he backed his rappel anchor or didn't but checked it or something?

I have CRS this morning. Who can forget CRS once you've had it?

We should all live as long as Jim...

The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 7, 2013 - 12:02am PT
Salmanizer,

First, let me say I thoroughly enjoy your TRs and would be happy to send you a topo of the Basket Dome route. You strike me as the kind of climber who could not only probably do the route in a day, but also one who would appreciate its character.

A good composite photo with my route description is here :

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=229851&tn=60

There's another thread with a pitch by pitch description with ratings.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=391916&msg=392685#msg392685

Let me know if you want an actual topo in addition.


There is one fixed pin on the route - a long thick Arrow driven straight down behind a slightly expanding flake which protects a downclimbing move on pitch 9. It's just where you want it whether following or leading, and absolutely bomber. It was placed trad style, on the lead, with the traditional Chouinard Yo Hammer.

This route is not a sport climb or a trad route.


Kevin
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 7, 2013 - 10:23am PT
A climb is what it is, the variations are endless. There are climbs with a few fixed pins which are NOT sport climbs and will definetly get your attention. Call them "mixed" if you want....the most important label is "i can, or can't do it."
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 7, 2013 - 10:56am PT
^ +1

Sometimes the absurdity of all this terminology really comes home. Couple weeks ago in Jtree it really hit home more than it usually does with me. I had looked at the guidebook then looked up around me and got the giggles.

All I had to do to find 3 easy, 3 hard or 3 impossible climbs was stand in one place and open my eyes.

Stop trying to impress with endless categorizing. Its not working.

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 7, 2013 - 07:56pm PT
Stop trying to impress with endless categorizing. Its not working.

That's an awfully grouchy line from a guy who is usually pretty constructive! I'm also unsure as to whom the arrow was slung, so I'll take it the target is all of us? The thread was apparently reaching the end of its lifecycle; it didn't need a coffin nail.

I'm guessing you didn't read so many of the posts other than the OP and Donini's comment. We have been discussing the culture of climbing. It happens here from time to time. I do agree that that's probably an endless pursuit and that it's not so impressive.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 7, 2013 - 08:23pm PT
Now that there is ultralight backpacking, the ultralightists like to group everyone else, people that carry 'too much', or people that don't 'know what they are doing', as 'traditional backpackpackers'. There's no such thing as traditional backpacking.

As Mr. Donini says,
A climb is what it is, the variations are endless.

In general, this is pretty off-base though;
There seems to be a general trend in climbing culture to call ascents of
routes with fixed and/or preplaced gear that aren't bolts as a traditional way to climb.


That just sounds like an inaccurate potrail of what trad is. In the outdoor industry, people call the newer dyneema grid fabrics just 'dyneema', and it leads to much confusion because there is such a thing as full dyneema, not just grid.

The only thing that might be traditional is stupidity, and that must be overcome. Trad climbing to me is leading and taking care of the rock as much as possible, for yourself and future climbers. I left a Dolt piton in a crack at the California Needles once. It was loose, but could just not get it out. The lip of rock it was behind would have been easy to chop away to get my pin out, but I left the pin. That's Trad climbing. That was 1970. Leaving that lip of rock may have been what made it possible to eventually free that pitch since it was in a very strategic spot. I have no idea, but I remember the lip of rock very well. Somebody may have come along later and chopped the pin out, or pulled it properly with some leverage. In general, the best of trad climbing is to just love the rock. It's like the old Seven-Up slogan; you like it - it likes you.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 7, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
McHale:
You do a good job of characterizing how some people disingenuously use or construct unnecessary categories to support a value judgment, either to control or to look down upon other people; I think this is what gets the dander up.

Apparently the tone of the OP fits this description?
Yes [perhaps] just a little bit.

Categorization in and of itself is not necessarily a judgmental tool, it's just a way to relate things to others.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 7, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
It looks like he is just asking if it's true don't you think? It's pretty wrong. From the fabric example it's easy to see how new climbers could get confused. Some people do some things disingenuously. Full Dyneema and Spectra are pure white for example. There was a company that was putting white dyneema grid in fabric but the nylon fabric itself was white. The manufacturer did not seem to care if the consumers 'thought' that the fabric was full dyneema or spectra. That is disingenuous. I'll re-read the OP. I did not look at the link!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 7, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
[edit] Yes that's how I took the OP, but others seem to be offended.

In the outdoor industry, people call the newer dyneema grid fabrics just 'dyneema', and it leads to much confusion because there is such a thing as full dyneema, not just grid.

Likewise, this is a good portrait of the need to strive for accurate categorization.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 7, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
Truth or there's consequences!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 7, 2013 - 09:05pm PT
I agree with what you are saying.

I'll re-read the OP.

It's sometimes a good idea to read an entire thread when responding, because the content, tone and even the vector changes.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 7, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
Well, to me it looks like the OP might be thinking that Rock $ Ice called it a 'Trad' climb because it had fixed gear? They are calling it a trad climb because that's the way it was originally done. It has nothing to do with whether there is fixed gear or not. It just a problem with comprehending what R&I is saying. Part of that blame could go to R&I. It's always difficult to write so that all generations and everyone know exactly what is being said. It's interesting that the OP took what he took from it.

I guess there's nothing quite as trad as when a trad route was done for the very first time. It certainly does not sound like the repeat was in the style of the first ascent, but we really don'y know what that was, or what the repeat was exactly like, based on the short story.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 7, 2013 - 09:17pm PT
Rock $ Ice
Good one! Very funny.

It wasn't immediately apparent to me that it was ever a typical trad climb. I think it's a head point project, which lies square in the middle between trad and sport.

And ditto on everything else you said about the general confusion.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 7, 2013 - 09:20pm PT
That was a typo! I saw that and thought it was, well, not appropriate or intended, but fun! I like the magazine - they are doing a pretty artful job of it in the onslaught of the digital age.

I mentioned the Needles earlier also, before I saw mention of the Needles in the R&I link. Also, it's easy for me to make typos with the poor lighting at my desk, my lack of typing skill, and the fact that a third of the keys are minus their lettering! It's the fingernail pecking that kills my keyboards.

It wasn't immediately apparent to me that it was ever a typical trad climb.

Yeah, there's always that. If it never really was a Trad climb......I suppose if it does not hurt the rock, it must be climbed in a way that it can be climbed. I'll be going out and nutting and camming up that 5.13 finger crack at Index. It's fun, it's trad, and doesn't hurt anything.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 7, 2013 - 09:35pm PT
It just a problem with comprehending what R&I is saying.
It's interesting that the OP took what he took from it.

Correct, but the ensuing conversation was stimulating, whatever the intent of the OP. What's interesting to me is the evolution of terms. What's equally interesting to me is how characterization through categorization gets people up in arms. Read through the thread and see what I'm saying about the latter.

And yes print media are dropping like flies.
BTW you think you got problems hunting and pecking, try this hair pulling voice control software and dropped call Internet connection I am stricken with!
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 7, 2013 - 09:41pm PT
It's looking more and more like it's the fault of R&I for confusing things. It probably WAS done with pre-fixed gear on the first ascent? They are calling it trad cause it's old and rad? God, what a mess! :>)

Chew on this;
but while inspecting the route Findlay discovered that much of Chicama's pre-placed pegs were now rotten due to years of weathering from the sea.

"Some of them fell out whilst I was working the route," explains Findlay. "Two of them snapped when we tried to get them out, which means that you can't use the same placement and have to find another spot for the pegs to go."

Findlay replaced enough pegs to make Chicama protectable again, and after three days of preparing the route she was ready for the lead.


She must have done it in the original style........but it does not sound very traditional. The only thing traditional was the use of fixed pins rather than bolts, and is it clear she even put the cams in on lead? I'm going to go and explode now.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 7, 2013 - 09:53pm PT
Yes, I've now read the thing a couple of times. Although by inference, it's pretty clear to me that this thing was a head point project, or maybe an old aid line that was freed; but in order to get it back up to snuff she definitely had to prepare it like a head point project. The fact that she worked it tells me it's head point. This is a term that's been in use for quite some time and nothing new. What I said very much earlier upthread is that younger climbers are dispensing with the distinction that head point indicates and just calling said climbs trad. Although I didn't say it so succinctly.



Definitely very necky: which is typical of head point projects.
Just check out that photo, she will deck if she falls from where she is at that moment.

Cover your keyboard before you explode!
From the sound of things it doesn't need any more torment or abuse.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 7, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
Risk is trad! That's it. It's all about the risk.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 7, 2013 - 10:01pm PT
No...it's about minimizing risk, which implies that risk is there.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 7, 2013 - 10:11pm PT
This is what makes head pointing such an interesting approach for those of us familiar more with the binary trad/sport dichotomy. Head pointing is about rock preservation to a great extent, so the climbs tend to be risky, as bolts are eschewed. At the same time it's about preservation of the climber, so protection is [often] pre-placed and the moves are worked on top rope before the final performance.

Not to be arrogant, but I'm guessing a lot of people posting to this thread are not quite getting the distinction. That's why I say it is smack in the middle between trad and sport. I think it was a style developed first on Grit, wherein most of us understand bolts are a big no-no. Again, so the preservation of the rock and the preservation of the climber meet in the middle of the more familiar tactics of trad versus sport.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 7, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
No...it's about minimizing risk, which implies that risk is there.

I was just speaking in the context of why R$I called that climb trad. I had to un-explode to write this!

so protection is [often] pre-placed and the moves are worked on top rope before the final performance.


I've been dying to use 'performance art' in this thread.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Apr 7, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
I think Tarbuster is right on. But I would also add that in the UK tradition seems to be something that is more universally viewed as being valuable and worth preserving. Hazel did that climb, which is probably beyond all the posters on this thread, in the style it had originally been done in, replacing when possible the pitons that had deteriorated.

Chances are in this country someone with a Hilti would have gone down there and properly bolted the thing from top to bottom to fix it up so that everyone from the gym could climb it and keep it from becoming a "museum piece." But she chose to repeat the challenge in its original form. How, in a sane lexicographic world, could that be anything other than traditional climbing?
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 7, 2013 - 10:31pm PT
It's clear that trad means different things in different locals. I like that particular genre of trad. This is all becoming much more clear now. I hope the OP appreciates our hard work! I'm going to go explode again now. Maybe R AND I knew what is was saying after all! Maybe that was the UK edition of the digi-R&I. You have to admit that any kind if climbing is pretty sporty.

The main thing here is to stay 6 posts ahead of the
Old people... give it up (OT)
thread.
jpin

Trad climber
CA
Apr 7, 2013 - 10:58pm PT
How many times have you done a climb and used a pin scare for a finger hold? How many climbs have blot holes for finger holds?
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 7, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
It's good we can see the beauty and booty in those things. I'm pretty good at it. It's a tradtional sense I have. There's nothing quite like the ring of a pin. Personally, I never though pin scars were all that ugly. They were sure unseamly though!
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 7, 2013 - 11:14pm PT
Music to our ears Dan, won't be heard by many any more.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 7, 2013 - 11:19pm PT
What's that bird in Yosemite that sounds like somebody banging on a bong.....or were those bongs?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 7, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
Ah the sounds of Yosemite in the early 70's.....LSD, mescaline and peyote induced, nothing quite like them.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 7, 2013 - 11:25pm PT
RGold said:
How, in a sane lexicographic world, could that be anything other than traditional climbing?

Way to be cogent dude!
Now that's the way to parse it like a Philadelphia lawyer!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 7, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
The main thing here is to stay 6 posts ahead of the

Old people... give it up (OT)
thread.

My sentiment exactly.
d-35

climber
ut
Apr 7, 2013 - 11:30pm PT
[youtube=http://youtu.be/aQJT4_-kCQ4]

This thing looks pretty traditional.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 7, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
Ah the sounds of Yosemite in the early 70's.....LSD, mescaline and peyote induced, nothing quite like them.

From the sounds of it, Viagra makes things chime. I can still get up it though, so I'm holding off.

Cool video. I'm working on my endurance so I can do some of that stuff in my dreams.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 8, 2013 - 12:07am PT
If a lead is rehearsed, toproped, hangdogged, preinspected, cleaned on rap, has preplaced protection, rehearsed protection placements, or protection placed on aid...

It ain't trad, in my book anyway - a book written in the late 60's

Closer to performance art, as someone implied upthread.

Impressive, bold, risky - yeah

Traditional - no.


I dunno, is trad different than traditional? Maybe that explains all this BS...


So can anybody define "trad" in 25 words or less? I'll give you 50.

OK - 100, but that's it.

WTF IS trad climbing anyway?
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 8, 2013 - 12:33am PT
It's real climbing where you carry all that crap on yer rack and in yer pack. It's real climbing where you don't have a topo, and look Ma - no Beta! It's real climbing were you have not talked to everyone under the sun about what's up there. Yer on yer own. That's trad.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 8, 2013 - 12:36am PT
Not bad...

Can you hangdog to work out the moves on a trad climb?
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 8, 2013 - 12:39am PT
I suppose. You got to keep trying one way or another - that's trad. If all else fails, get the aid-slings out - that's trad. I'm going to explode again.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 8, 2013 - 12:49am PT
Let's talk style here, as in trad style. So if a leader resorts to hangdogging, he's still doing the route in traditional style? What happened to the tradition of lowering off the lead immediately after a fall and pulling the rope instead?

That was traditional before hangdogging was.

Isn't the older tradition more traditional than the newer tactic by definition of the word traditional?

A tactic which breaks tradition can't be employed in a traditional style ascent, can it?


McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 8, 2013 - 12:59am PT
Yeah, I'm just being flip. If you were on a 'real' climb though, like doing some first ascent in the back-country, you didn't lower down to the base of the pitch and start over. That would have been lunacy. You just kept trying from where you fell to or whatever. If you had to pull on gear though, you didn't lie to your friends and say you did it free.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Apr 8, 2013 - 01:09am PT
So can anybody define "trad" in 25 words or less? I'll give you 50.

OK - 100, but that's it.

WTF IS trad climbing anyway?

It's the way Stannard and others of his generation established FAs back in the day.

1) That's only 15 words.

2) What do I win?

Curt
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 8, 2013 - 01:25am PT
Ok now we're getting somewhere.

And if I recall, jstan etal were pretty damn picky about exactly how those routes got done - how they were protected, how the moves were figured out - that nit picky stuff.




Resting on gear while freeclimbing? Not even considered. It was tabu amongst America's leading climbers, and only practiced by Europeans or desperate beginners.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Apr 8, 2013 - 01:29am PT
Resting on gear while freeclimbing? Not even considered.

Correct.

Curt
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 8, 2013 - 01:33am PT
And if I recall, jstan etal were pretty damn picky about exactly how those routes got done - how they were protected, how the moves were figured out - that nit picky stuff.


A lot more people than just the 'Chosen' few cared about this stuff. Lets not turn trad climbing into more glorification of the golden years boys.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 8, 2013 - 01:42am PT
No glorification intended. Of course, the unwashed masses cared also, because they were inspired by the guys at the forefront, like Stannard.

Just the facts, man
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 8, 2013 - 01:42am PT
You know what it is Kevin.
As we established upthread, this particular climb from the OP in question is a ""headpoint”, which is only traditional, at best, for brits. It’s neither trad nor sport. Not that complicated after all.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Apr 8, 2013 - 01:43am PT
A lot more people than just the 'Chosen' few cared about this stuff. Lets not turn trad climbing into more glorification of the golden years boys.

Uh, I believe we're looking for the definition of the term... Not whether you or others also conformed to it.

Curt
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 8, 2013 - 01:50am PT
unwashed masses

Yer really somethin man.
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Apr 8, 2013 - 01:54am PT
Credit: mike m
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 8, 2013 - 01:54am PT
I hope yer not taking me seriously McHale...

And I think you hit the nail on the head, Roy, with that particular route.

McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:00am PT
Sure do, sounds like you have an Alter in your home you kneel at to worship our righteous fathers.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:02am PT
That's Altar, McHale.

I'm actually worshipping the brand new Makita rotohammer I just got tonite.



McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:05am PT
Snob. Did I spell that one correctly?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:09am PT
Trad:
Start from the bottom, carry gear on a sling, protect as you go, top out, pound chest and yell like Tarzan.
Fall on the way up? Lower down, pull rope, try again. Three strikes and your out. At the worst, yoyo.

Less than 50 words.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:10am PT
Step away from the bottle, bud

Or bottle of bud

Or the bud
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:17am PT
What Tarbuster said!
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:21am PT
Sure do, sounds like you have an Alter [sic] in your home you kneel at to worship our righteous fathers.

What's wrong with giving credit to those who established that ethic?

Curt
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:52am PT
You mean the geniuses that pounded steel for 20 years and only quit because the Brits started using machine nuts on cords? It's like Tarbuster said. You climb, you put in pro, you climb and put in pro.....you stop when you get to the end of the rope.....
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:57am PT
You mean the geniuses that pounded steel for 20 years and only quit because the Brits stared [sic] using machine nuts on cords?

For someone who can occasionally post something worthwhile, your ignorance here is astounding.

Curt


McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:59am PT
Thanks, we found another typo. It's not that there's anything wrong with giving credit where credit is due, it's the incessant glorification of it. Climbing is a very simple sport. We're talking about what trad climbing is. It's almost too dumb to have needed invention by anyone - it just IS. It certainly was not invented in Yosemite.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Apr 8, 2013 - 03:11am PT
Thanks, we found another typo. It's not that there's anything wrong with giving credit where credit is due, it's the incessant glorification of it. Climbing is a very simple sport. We're talking about what trad climbing is. It's almost too dumb to have been invented by anyone - it just IS.

Thanks for providing our bright line definition.

Curt

McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 8, 2013 - 03:22am PT
I found this over at rockclimbing.com in a discussion about where climbing got its start;

I remember reading a Verm story about a baboon that climbed its way into a pickle, had to do a desperate dyno to get out and proceeded to furiously masterbate upon reaching firm ground again.

Trad climbing is just a small step and leap away from this. Trad climbing is what others forms of climbing have grown from.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Apr 8, 2013 - 03:29am PT
I found this over at rockclimbing.com...

Well, there's your error.

Curt
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 8, 2013 - 03:41am PT
Why all the distaste (vehemence) for RC.com? I mean, this has come up before. I see familiar faces there. The rock here is nicer, that's for sure.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Apr 8, 2013 - 03:46am PT
Why all the distaste (vehemence) for RC.com? I mean, this has come up before. I see familiar faces there. The rock here is nicer, that's for sure.

I post there too. That wasn't my point. Sheesh.

Curt
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 8, 2013 - 04:21am PT
You mean you just did not like my selection, from all that I could have chosen? I have to admit, I did some cherry picking. I didn't go straight to RC.com though. I ended up there from a general search on Yahoo.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Apr 8, 2013 - 04:39am PT
I believe the topic under discussion is the proper definition for trad climbing, isn't it? Your cite of baboons jerking off just seems somehow off point. Then again you and I may celebrate topping out differently. I guess, like Johnny Carson used to say, it takes all kinds of people to fill the freeways.

Curt
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 8, 2013 - 05:21am PT
That's funny, I don't think I've heard Johnny say that. I'm starting to see your point though. We should just make a checklist of what it is and isn't. On-sight and trad have much in common. We traditionalists always have a problem with people that want to make things too easy....and safe. Things are usually so easy for us to start with we eschew almost everything a modern climber thinks they need. I like chalk, but I suppose I could live without that. I can tell this will get complicated real fast. I don't need no spring-loaded devices, but that's not even what this is about, even though they make things so much easier. It's not about belay devices. It's not whether the rope is hemp or kernmantle. It's just that 'ground up' not cheating with for-knowledge about the route thing, except in the most basic sense. In trad climbing there is much uncertainty. It certainly does NOT include hangdogging (however important that may be to advance the difficulty of climbing). I can see how hangdogging could be included in Trad, since as I've said before, it's a little silly to go all the way back down, like you need to be punished or something. I kind of rebel against that sh#t. What else....I guess you can put as much pro in as you want, but there's limits depending on length of climb and getting the damn thing done in a timely manner. I just see trad as taking a good selection of stuff on the rack and giving something a go. If it turns out the rack did not make things possible by way of being safe enough, you are allowed to come back and try again with different gear because of the knowledge you gained by being there, without topos, beta, and all that modern checklist of crap stuff. You basically are going in blind to do battle with the beast when you trad climb. That reminds me, I still think there is a future for blind-folded climbing, whether it's trad, sport or whatever. It would be like speed climbing, just another oddball thing to fill the freeways.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 8, 2013 - 06:08am PT
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 8, 2013 - 11:53am PT
McHale's Navy, Curt: you guys are such a bust up.

Apologies for the punitive action. I know, soap bubbles constitute a heavy hand. Cruel and Unusual even ...
Had to be done! Your giggles were keeping me up.
MisterE

Social climber
Apr 8, 2013 - 11:59am PT
This beautifully written piece by RGold deserves reposting:

Trad climbers got stuck with the "traditional" name as a counterpoint to sport climbing. In fact, every generation of climbers has violated tradition by choosing to abandon at least some of the cherished rules of the previous generation. This is at least partially because the previous generation had already gotten about as far as possible within the context of the rules they adhered to.

Typically, the role of the previous generation has been to complain bitterly about the transgressions of the current generation and, in so doing, prevent at least some of the outrages that result from the drive of outsize egos for accomplishment.

I think sport climbing upended this conservative process by being something different and parallel to what came before, rather than an evolution of it. Although we don't like to say so in this country, the presence of risk and the way in which it is confronted lies at the heart of what is now referred to as traditional climbing. Sport climbing has banished risk, at least the forms of risk inherent in trad climbing, in favor of other aspects of climbing, and as the sport climbing mentality spreads, it becomes increasingly difficult to even communicate about the distinctions between the genres, not least because of the irrelevant formulations such as bolts vs. gear.

Consider a trad climb with a risky section. It's been done many times, but now there is a contingent of climbers who want to put a bolt there. Why? Because that part of the climb is risky! More people could enjoy it if there was a bolt, and the community has a "right" to the route.

But the risk is exactly why the trad climbers don't want the bolt there, although somehow that never seems to be made clear. Trad climbers see controlling the risk through the use of gear that may not be bomber and the practice of self-control under pressure as one of the intrinsic challenges of the sport.

Putting in that bolt destroys part of the essence of the climb for the trad climber. People may not like this and may not agree with it, but they should at least understand that there is a genuine and irreconcilable conflict between the preservation of risk and the desire for a risk-free environment.

Saying that risk is intrinsic to trad climbing does not mean that trad climbers want arbitrary risks. Trad climbing isn't a collection of stunts like how many cars you can jump your motorcycle over. The risks of trad climbing are the ones intrinsic to the environment: unknown territory ahead, no cracks for pro, no stances to drill from. This is why those who say "just don't clip the bolt" are utterly clueless. The bolt modifies the environment and makes a former intrinsic risk into a stupid stunt.

I grew up in a time when all climbing was trad climbing. I have nothing against sport climbing, and because of the decreased risk I find it increasingly attractive as I get older and more brittle. But I also would have found the sheer pursuit of difficulty in sport climbing compelling when I was young, strong, and less likely to snap on impact. I just wish the the practitioners of the two genres would learn to respect the traditions of each (yes, sport climbing is now old enough to have traditions too) and not try to impose their perspectives and preferences on the other styles of climbing. The UK is the only country that seems to have really managed to do this.

Unfortunately, there is a substantial asymmetry in the two outlooks that puts trad climbing at an enormous disadvantage. Trad climbers, by and large, are about leaving things as they are. Sport climbing is all about permanently modifying the environment to provide a certain type of experience. Someone with a Hilti will put in a bunch of bolts somewhere, and then we hear that they should be left in because who wants to start a bolt war. According to this view, the Hilti owners have free reign to do whatever they want and the rest of the climbing community just has to be resigned to it.

Of course, the sense of entitlement that allows a self-appointed guardian of communal safety to bolt trad routes will never be fully constrained to the placement of protection. Once one type of environmental modification has been embraced, the barriers to other types become fragile, and that is why we are seeing more and more chipping, even in former bastions of traditional values like the Gunks where the owners of the land explicitly forbid such actions.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 8, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
This is terrific stuff, if not a tad off topic. (Kidding, Smiley Face).
And "some say" we just prattle on with un-substantive banter.

Rich Goldstone: man of the hour, our man of letters!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 8, 2013 - 01:27pm PT
No really, all kidding aside that R Gold piece is so spot on and potentially quite beneficial; it needs a real home.

Warbler: say, if you're still following along could you do me a big treat?
Next time you put down some routes, name one for me please: Altar Ego
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 8, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
I've got the perfect place for it, Roy -

Eagle (Ego) Peak, here in the beautiful SD backcountry.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 8, 2013 - 01:55pm PT
So very cool!
Thanks: someday I'm getting back in the saddle and we can go do it together. Preference would be 5.9-5.10+, you know, for practical reasons.

Of course, it's such a kick ass name, if you find some 5.11C-5.13B that calls out for the name, use your discretion!
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
You call soap bubbles cruel and unusual? You can be my jailer! :>)
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
Silk handcuffs, a bottle of [cheap] port, and endless reruns of Gilligan's Island.
I'm a stern taskmaster. Stay off my watch!
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
Well Roy, it just so happens I've been climbing in an area with way too many new routes, and not enough names for them.

The last one was a 3 pitch 5.7 slab climb on perfect rock, first ascent trad style. And there's more like that.



Sound doable?

Better hop a train before summer hits.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Apr 8, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
How bout Unwashed Massif for one of em? Well, see you guys. I'm outta here for the day. I got in my bouldering watching the Frenchies bouldering in that video - now it's time to work!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 8, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
Better hop a train before summer hits.
Thanks man, I'm WAY overdue. Still got lots of hip rehab to juggle, tests to run, therapeutic drugs to try, doctors to see. Maybe in the fall!

What's the best way to get in touch?
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 8, 2013 - 03:36pm PT
Good topic....

I know trad (8 that word for it)from sport when I see it.

Just like porn....

And Roy... good to hear you are making progress! Good news.
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