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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 14, 2006 - 09:01pm PT
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Hi ya'all:
Kolin Powick, safety and gear guru at BD, asked me to post the following. I've worked with KP in the past (he kindly reviewed my new Anchor Book and provided valuable feedback). He's an expert (rare) on climbing equipment, is a tireless tester of everything from old dogbone draws to new biners, and remains a stickler for detail and accuracy. So if there's someone who will eventually wrangle this thing down to the ground, it's KP--of that we may be sure.
JL
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Regarding the incident of rope breakage on May 20th, 2006 at a rock climbing gym in Sacramento
Black Diamond received the rope shortly after the incident in order to perform an investigation and analysis. It appears most people are unaware that investigations like this are complex and take significant time. We have been analyzing the rope (at the point at which it broke) as well as performing multiple tests (tensile pull tests, high impact drop tests, low impact drop tests, drops over a carabiner, drops over a sharp edge, etc,
etc) on other portions of the rope and on comparative samples (brand new ropes, old used ropes, etc). Based on testing thus far, albeit incomplete, there does not appear to be any defect to the rope. This of course brings many other factors into the equation which increases the complexity of the investigation. Analysis is continuing - samples are being sent to outside
independent labs for chemical analysis, and we have been working with several outside sources to assist in the investigations: other industry experts, nylon experts, textile experts, rope manufacturers, the climber, the belayer, and the rock gym. All parties assisting in looking in to this have been incredibly accommodating and their assistance and efforts are greatly appreciated.
It must be remembered that coordinating an investigation like this takes time and money. Black Diamond alone has invested upwards of 70 man-hours to this point (after receiving the rope on May 25th) and we're probably about half way through the analysis. (Outside experts time and independent lab costs withstanding). We are looking at all possible scenarios and are doing our best to ascertain what happened in this instance. I don't want to go off half-cocked about findings thus far and would rather wait until the investigation is complete before distributing any sort of summary. At this time, best case scenario, I anticipate wrapping up the investigation by the
end of the month.
It must be noted that I, personally, always have been, and still remain of the camp that ropes simply don't break. Climbing rope construction, manufacturing process, materials used, and quality control are so unbelievably refined going on several decades now that it suggests that ropes simply don't break without some extra-ordinary circumstance or trauma involved. I therefore am confident in saying that there is no reason to
stop climbing on any rope from a reputable manufacturer and people should continue with confidence. As has always been the case being smart about checking your rope periodically for signs of trauma, and retiring from lead climbing within manufacturer guidelines and timeframe IS always prudent and necessary.
Thanks,
Kolin Powick
Quality Assurance Manager,
Black Diamond Equipment, Ltd.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 14, 2006 - 09:16pm PT
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cool, thanks John and KP!
sounds like they are leaning towards the "rope didn't just break conclusion," which seems rational. however that only leads to investigating other factors from either the climbers use of the rope or the climbing gyms wall and equipments effect on the rope.
a tough nut to crack. has the owner of the rope weighed in with any valuable input?
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Eddie
Trad climber
Boston
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Jun 14, 2006 - 09:16pm PT
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damn straight.
whiners...
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Jun 14, 2006 - 09:54pm PT
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Could somebody explain why the manufacturers are the only people that investigate product failures in the climbing industry? When a plane crashes, it isn't just Boeing that tells us what happened. When tires on SUVs blow up and cause rollovers, it isn't just Ford and Bridgestone that look into the matter and reassure us. The locking carabiners breaking from a Figure-8 was investigated by the BMC. But in this country, everyone is happy with potential litigants telling the whole story. Weird.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jun 14, 2006 - 10:03pm PT
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Maybe because the only experts in such a niche industry are the guys who make the ropes?
I mean, this is what, the first real rope problem in years? So you want a body of independent experts on climbing rope to sit around for a decade, waiting, playing tiddly winks perhaps, for one accident to investigate?
Who is going to pay them?
BTW, could it possibly be that now people will wait for a meaningful, well explained, carefully tested result on this rope debacle?
Or will they just move on to some new point of mindless speculation?
keep in mind that in terms of real working days, not many have passed, but many tests and scenarios have been and still will be run and examined, and finally, a solid conclusion based on evidence and fact will come out.
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coolclimber
Trad climber
toronto,canada
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Jun 14, 2006 - 11:11pm PT
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maybe the point to be emphasizedhere is to not push the limits of your gear. If one cannot have an idea what the thelimits are, then try to find out what it is and asses your situation before taking the fall. The sport is increasingly moving towards participants expecting the gear to hold no matter what without an iota of knowledge of how much ot takes.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 14, 2006 - 11:23pm PT
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I think you could have shortened this quote a bit from...
The sport is increasingly moving towards participants expecting the gear to hold no matter what without an iota of knowledge of how much ot takes.
to a more concise and accurate version...
The sport is increasingly moving towards participants expecting the gear to hold no matter what without an iota of knowledge.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 14, 2006 - 11:35pm PT
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why write something in the first place that you don't stand behind....slandering a company with no real basis of info???
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jun 15, 2006 - 12:02am PT
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Wihtout its favorite bone of the moment to gnaw, the mob quickly turned on itself...
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 15, 2006 - 01:01am PT
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CCH should take a lesson or two, or three from that response.
-Fear
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pFranzen
Boulder climber
Portland, OR
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Jun 15, 2006 - 03:02am PT
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Thanks for posting the update John. It's good to hear that they're treating this matter responsibly.
Somehow this whole matter doesn't phase me one bit. I tell new climbers that "ropes don't break" all the time but somehow, somehwere there's going to be an exception to that rule. Out of the millions of lead falls that are taken each year on hundreds of thousands of meters of rope it just doesn't seem that far out of the range of possibility that once every few decades a failure is going to occur. Sometimes the stars line up just right (or wrong, depending on how you look at it) and something terrible happens.
And a bit off topic... great article on the Stonemasters! I finally got around to reading it.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2006 - 11:37am PT
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Per Kolin's comment in that update that ropes don't just break--I can't speak for KP, but my take on this is that he is entirely correct. The rope was either cut (somehow, who knows how??) or damaged by chemicals or something else. The point is, there's no previous history of a lead rope getting so weak or "dry" or whatever that the core and sheath simply come apart when fallen upon. To my knowledge this has never happened in the modern history of climbing. There's always another factor, like a sharp edge--or something. But of course we'll have to wait and see.
JL
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wombat
Trad climber
NY, NY
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Jun 15, 2006 - 04:09pm PT
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Not to belittle the seriousness of the situation, (well maybe a little belittling involved) but the situation did make for fun discussion with my local gym employee while they signed a newby up for a belay test.
if i learned anything from this it was reinforcement that cats suck!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jun 15, 2006 - 04:14pm PT
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LOL the cloak and dagger suspense and code words are killing me.
WIll this message self destruct in 30 seconds?
The secretary wil disavow any knowledge of your actions should you be caught or killed.
Where is Mr Phelps when you really need him?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 15, 2006 - 06:23pm PT
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I'd like to see a photo of the lead route that this happened on at Pipeworks.
I have been to Pipeworks, and it is a top notch facility with a high quality wall. All the lead routes are overhanging and I couldn't see any edges that could cut a rope. It looked like a superbly engineered wall.
Perhaps the rope got caught up on a sharp hold, but that also seems highly unlikely.
Has anyone from the gym weighed in on this? It seems without word from the rope owner, or the manager of the gym, there are two important pieces missing from the analysis.
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Jun 15, 2006 - 06:39pm PT
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I had asked before (but no one responded since there was a big argument going on about something else)...did anyone check the ATC's (or whatever belay devices they were using) of the rope owner and/or climber for sharp edges? They do develop and can go unnoticed unless you actively check them...
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Colt45
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 16, 2006 - 01:29am PT
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According to the original post the rope broke near the climber's end, so the belay device probably is not relevant.
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rocketsocks
climber
Bellevue, WA
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Jun 16, 2006 - 01:48am PT
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Thanks John and KP. I'm glad, but not surprised, to see the amount of effort going into the investigation.
Also, to those who wonder why only BD is investigating rather than some independent government panel, the answer is simple. Climbing is an unregulated activity. And I, for one, do not want it regulated. I think BD is doing an exemplary job of investigating this issue. I also think that most other climbing gear manufacturers are comparably diligent when it comes to safety issues. I'd like to see that situation continue rather than have some massive crap-load of regulation and bureaucratic committees come along and ruin climbing for the foreseable future (and probably making it less safe in the process anyway).
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Jun 16, 2006 - 09:23am PT
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If this incident had resulted in death it would be getting investigated by the police, in which case we'd have an answer to the cause sometime in 2008, a conviction in 2012 followed by an execution around 2022.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jun 16, 2006 - 10:51am PT
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That's pretty bold talk for a stuffed animal there, wootles.
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Jun 16, 2006 - 11:03am PT
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Yes well, I am full of beans you know.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jun 16, 2006 - 11:12am PT
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And that remindes me of a little ditty that every child should know:
Beans beans the musical fruit
The more you eat the more you toot
The more you toot the beter you feel
So eat your beans at every meal!
But ALAS, I hear that too much tooting can lead to that heart-breaking and dreaded disease..
A$$ Tendonitis!!!
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ladd
Trad climber
land of fruits, nuts and flakes
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Jun 16, 2006 - 12:27pm PT
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Thanks JL for forwarding BD's on going analysis. How about that - "ropes don't just break" - NICE.
I learned and have taught climbers to uncoil and inspect while flaking the rope(s) prior to tying in and getting on with the climbing stuff. Do I always observe climbers doing this when they are out at the crags - sure don't. A thorough inspection of the entire rope(s) is plain mandatory - just do it. The slide of hand along the rope, while inspecting, admiring and reminescing about past climbs with the ole pal works well for feeling through to the core strands. This has often times brought up suspect areas of the rope, helps avoid a kinked up handle, and also stacks the rope properly for the sharp end to feed from the top of the pile.
I'm expecting the results of this whole managery will coil up inconclusively. I like the might as well go climbing part of the write up best - just check them ropes first.
cheers
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Jun 16, 2006 - 12:52pm PT
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"Also, to those who wonder why only BD is investigating rather than some independent government panel, the answer is simple. Climbing is an unregulated activity."
Who said anything about a govenrment panel or regulation? Gear failures and climbing accidents are not uncommon. In the UK, the BMC investigates. In Germany and Austria, the DAV investigates. In Italy, the CAI investigates. In North America, it's totally haphazard but you can count on the AAC and CAC doing nothing. If someone is hurt, perhaps the local rescue team will try to find out what happened. If nobody is seriously hurt, then the company that might get sued is supposed to do all the leg work, pay all the bills, and tell us the "whole" story. In many cases, we, the climbing public, never hear what happened because of out-of-court settlements with no-disclosure clauses. There isn't a good way to report accidents or gear failures except posting on web sites. ANAM is a poor substitute that misses much, too slow, and often biased. None of the magazines do anything about safety. There isn't even good sharing of information internationally such as reporting accidents or translating technical papers. Yet American climbers are happy with their ignorance. Weird.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Jun 16, 2006 - 01:26pm PT
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Thanks to BD for doing this. I thought this was a total hoax at first.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jun 16, 2006 - 02:38pm PT
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One of the reasons that it's BD doing this is that they have the capability to do it, and do it well. Other than perhaps Petzl and the UIAA, there is probably no one in or out of the country that has the experienced staff and equipment to perform this kind of analysis. I'd be very surprised if the BMC has devoted anywhere near the amount of money to QA staff and equipment that BD has.
And, as a friend of Kolin's, I can say with certainty that he would not let business concerns get in the way of doing what he perceives as his duty as a QA engineer.
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Ken Zemach
Trad climber
Redwood City, CA
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Jun 16, 2006 - 08:12pm PT
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There are several experts in the US that could handle such an analysis. For instance, there are several professors at Georgia Tech who specialize in ropes / cords / manufacturing / and failure analysis of such. However, I agree with the poster above who asked who would pay for this?
Off hand, I would expect an INITIAL analysis, which might not even get you an answer but instead suggestions for further testing, to cost somewhere in the range of $15-20k if you go to a "non-partisan expert." (This number drummed up from years of doing failure analyses on other issues).
I find it refreshing to a good degree that the climbing community, in this case a manufacturer, comes together to try to solve the issue, with people donating considerable time and resources, and I applaud all involved. 'Cause just about the only other way an outside expert is going to be involved is when a lawsuit is slapped on someone's desk, and a lawyer can foot the bill for the testing in hopes of a large claim or settlement. Again, kudos to all involved in their cooperative search for an answer instead of a search for compensation.
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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Jun 21, 2006 - 10:49am PT
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Could the Black Diamond QA engineer provide us with just the facts of the case:
Manufacturer of the rope
Name of rope
size of rope (actual and advertised)
static or dynamic
Manufacturer of Quick Draw used
Name of quick draw
Manufacturer of each biner
Name of each biner
description of each biner
Manufacturer of hanger
Name of hanger
type of hanger
description of hanger
type of bolt
description of bolt
Manufacturer of Belay devise used
type of belay device used
Description of belay device used
description of Harness used by climber
Description of Harness used by belayer
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Jun 21, 2006 - 11:16am PT
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Why?
Other than the question of the rope being static or dynamic, which has already been established, nothing else matters. The bottom line, all the answers we need, will be found at the ends of the broken fliaments of the rope.
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DavisGunkie
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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Jun 21, 2006 - 12:57pm PT
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as far as i remember, it was a beal rope which is made by BD. So its realy a case of a manufactuer standing by its product and seeing what went wrong
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Jun 21, 2006 - 05:22pm PT
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I think you got that backwards. It's a BD rope made by Beal or perhaps PMI, which is more or less the same since Beal makes the core for PMI.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jun 21, 2006 - 05:52pm PT
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That's pretty bold talk for a stuffed animal there, Wootles.
Next thing you know my cat will be posting about this rope, I think she told me she peed on it once.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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Jun 21, 2006 - 06:09pm PT
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It's a rope, they never break. Just make sure you finish your fig 8.rg
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada
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Jul 10, 2006 - 10:20pm PT
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Largo. Any chance of another update? I was told that people from the rope maker and BD visited the gym in Sacramento and repeatedly climbed and jumped from the route. Did they reach any conclusions?
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hanxyz
Boulder climber
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Jul 18, 2006 - 12:49pm PT
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message bump.
original thread:
http://supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=196553
Author: labrat
Trad climber
From: Nevada
Largo. Any chance of another update? I was told that people from the rope maker and BD visited the gym in Sacramento and repeatedly climbed and jumped from the route. Did they reach any conclusions?
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