Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 36 of total 36 in this topic |
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 12, 2006 - 01:27am PT
|
looking at the frequency of reported FA's in the Valley is interesting... the plot below is taken from all documented references I reported in the Yosemite Valley Climbs spread sheet.
It summarizes some general trend. There is the time before 1957 where maybe 3 FA's per year (average) were done. The time between 1957 and 1970, the "Golden Age" when 26 per year were done. Not sure what the period between 1970 and 1984 would be called... but that period say roughly 49 FA's per year. And then the period between 1984 and 1991, about 99 FA's per year.
1991 may have been a cut off for the guide book or else the end of Valley climbing in some sense.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2006 - 01:32am PT
|
Fascinating! Must do one for Squamish. Though it's not so well-defined an area.
Anders
|
|
yo
climber
I'm so over it
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2006 - 02:08am PT
|
Very cool, Ed.
How much of this can be blamed on Tucker?
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2006 - 02:21am PT
|
Climbs that Tucker was listed on the FA, by year
1985 6
1986 3
1987 17
1988 24
1989 82
1990 10
1991 1
1992 1
1989 seems to have been heavily influenced by Tucker's activities
|
|
todd-gordon
climber
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2006 - 02:27am PT
|
How many beers does Tucker drink on EACH F. A. ?......(answer.....between 6 and 15...).so let's just say average about 10......and in 1989 he did 89 First Ascents... that's 890 beers powering First Ascents alone........not to mention one gets mighty thirsty climbing other people's routes and on rest days...(What's a rest day?).......What can we learn from this statistic?.... Beer motivates climbers to do first ascents......So;... what are you waiting for?.... go get a sixer, get a good buzz going, the hand-drill, and some 5 cent machine bolts and get busy!
|
|
aldude
climber
Monument Manor
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2006 - 02:37am PT
|
I have a theory : Power drill ban enforced in 92'?
|
|
mcreel
climber
Barcelona, Spain
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2006 - 03:47am PT
|
Was that the year Climbing stopped reporting FA's in Basecamp, or whatever that section was called?
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2006 - 10:27am PT
|
I was sort of thinking kind of what Aldude was saying...What's the # of new pitches per year? A Nose should be worth 34 Yeast Infections, no? I'd have thought that the old-dads might have scoffed at putting up so many shorties, especially the ones that were getting rapid-fire bolted.
Also, where is the fall-off point for the publication of the last Reid guide? I'd think that even a couple of years prior to its publication would be likely to have a lot of omissions.
Thay you have as much signal as you do in the post-guidebook years sayz to me that Eric is most prolific...especially if you go pitch by pitch.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2006 - 10:34am PT
|
The style of Yosemite Valley climbing changes with each passing "age." The old-dads probably refer to the "Stonemaster" era, I'd say from '71 through '83.. and they might have a bone to pick with the "shortie" climbs, but so to in the "Golden Age" which didn't necessarily cotton to the short route idea. Roper has stated that he missed that whole thing... Pratt going out and doing a short pitch and calling it a difficult route. Most of these are considered "classics" and on the training list, if not the full up hit list of Valley climbers.
I didn't think that the frequency of FA's would have such well defined boundaries, but it seems to be.
It is possible that the '84 to '91 era is the "Sport Age" which depended on the existence of power drills. We can debate whether or not that is good... but it seems to have existed.
Withouth the new guide to enumerate the climbs of the 90's and hopefully the first half decade of this century, it will be hard to determine if Valley climbing is senescent.
|
|
James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2006 - 10:42am PT
|
Does this include only routes reported in the guidebook? There are a number of routes, like the face of Cloud's rest, that remain semi-obscure and could significantly change the statistics.
|
|
bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2006 - 10:51am PT
|
Just a theory...
Rap-bolting was gaining popularity in the late 80's in the states. Old school was out new school was in. Putting "up" routes was just too hard. It took a while for rap-bolting to occur in Yosemite as well. With rap bolting, more power drills appeared and added to the bolting ban (pre-ban power drills were being used by ground-up ascenders who were relatively few in numbers). Rap bolting minus power drills = no fun.
Questiion: Does the chart distinguish between first ascents (i.e. ground up) and first descents (i.e. top down)?
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2006 - 11:55am PT
|
the plot uses all the PUBLISHED reports of route activity, mostly guidebook and magazines.
Most climbers I know active in FA's report (if they report at all) to Donny Reid. That is why I am interested in the new guide, I hope that the FA list will be more complete.
This list does NOT distinguish the style of the FA or FFA, check the spreadsheet if you are interested in more details and references.
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2006 - 11:56am PT
|
who has the most Yos FA's and how many? just curious...
|
|
ablegabel
Trad climber
Livermore,Ca.
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2006 - 12:31pm PT
|
People are still using power drills in the Valley,regardles of the fact that it could jeopardize climbing for all of us(like the result of Poter's actions in the Arches). IMO if a route is worth putting up, it's worth doing it by hand.--There has been as much activity establishing routes in the Valley in the last 15 years as any other time if not more. Just no book to document them.--Most Prolific FA's has to be Sean Jones. He has a great eye for a line and is very active. Wait till you see all the lines he's put up,it will blow you away! -- The road side lines are getting harder to find, but a little hike is always worth it.--Hopefuly, everybody will keep exploring, and sending new routes in good style -Eric
|
|
Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2006 - 01:07pm PT
|
Interesting chart Ed.
A little from memory and some checking on your data base yields the following about the peaks:
In 1962 Sacherer (13 ascents) came to the Valley, along with Kamps (11) and Rowell (9)
In 1965 Pratt got out of the Army (10)
In the fallow years of 1966-69, Kim Schmitz had the most, 12, although there were spread over 4 seasons. Bridwell had nine, Pratt eight, and Robbins eight. Again spread over four seasons.
In 1970-71, Mark Klemens came back to the Valley (14 and 9) and Barry Bates put on a show (7 and 8) sparking the wide and narrow ends of the spectrum, respectively. Bridwell had 10 and 17. Rick Sylvester also had 27.
In 1972 the mix changed: Porter showed up (10), Jin Donini (11), John Bragg (8), Steve Wunsch (8) and Rik Rieder (10). Bridwell had six.
In 1973-74 some of the new faces came to the fore: Meyers (7), Worrall (14), and Chapman (5), Kauk (7), Long (7), Dale Bard (8), Jardine (9). Jim had twelve.
In 1975 Worrall had (10), Jardine (8), Kauk (5), Bachar (5), Henry Barber (4) Faulkenstein (4). Jim had five
1976-1980 Jardine had (30), Cashner (30), Kauk (11) Bill Price (16), Bruce Morris (14), Cantwell (16), Don Reid (21), Jim Beyer (13).
Ed, I do not think I would characterize the early 1970s as "Stonemaster" years. The first movers in that period did not identify with that and, in fact, were mostly gone when is came to the Valley in probably 1974-75.
I have read in Ropers' "Camp 4" that Bridwell was on over 90 ascents. I come up with 82 in Ed's database.
The next one is Don Reid with 71.
Then Rick Cashner (56),
Chuck Pratt (47),
Ray Jardine (47),
Royal Robbins (43),
Rick Sylvester (42)
Warren Harding (39),
Frank Sacherer (36),
Ron Kauk (37),
Mark Klemens (35),
Kevin Worrall (32).
Chris Cantwell (31)
Mark Chapman (31)
Bob Kamps (31)
Interesting list. (This is a hunt and peck sorting on the database, so it might not be accurate.)
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2006 - 01:18pm PT
|
a quick comment...
...it would be nice to see the source of Roper's count of FA's
|
|
Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2006 - 01:31pm PT
|
First someone should check Steve's book and make sure that I have the count right.
In answer to your question, my guess is that Steve would have counted from the indices at the back of the climbing guides. Jim also have a few climbs in the Meadows. That may make up the difference.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2006 - 02:21pm PT
|
Actually I was hoping on some secret treasure trove of information... not so much questioning Roper's tally...
...my database is not complete, but the only mechanism the climbing community has for spreading this information is published guide books, and those are infrequent. As much as we complained about magazine coverage stimulating the worst attention mongering impulses in us, there was an independent and timely way for important routes to be discussed.
Of course, now we have to sit down and talk to each other again... what a concept, back to the future. I kinda like it!
|
|
Nate D
climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2006 - 02:25pm PT
|
Neat chart Ed. As others have said, it would be even more interesting to include those other variables - pitches per route, and style of ascent (GU vs. R&D).
Edit: Oh yea, definitely include another line for unreported/secret FAs. Good luck! Sounds like those would currently be at a high point - while reported routes have dropped off...
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2006 - 04:31pm PT
|
Brian Knight, aka, Mr. Way was collecting info 2-3 years ago for a new version of the Falcon guide, but it seems the project got tabled. His info is probably a little bit dated now, but he probably has some of what you're looking for... if you ever happened to cross paths with him.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2006 - 12:07am PT
|
If I sum the number of pitches for the FA's in each year I get the plot:
which is much the same as the number of FA's per year...
before 1957 average 10 pitches per year of FA
1957-1969 76 pitches
1970-1984 152 pitches
1985-1991 271 pitches
1992-2005 19 pitches
the green dotted line in the plot is the average over these periods.
if Eric is right, then there should be 1480 new climbs since 1992 representing 4065 pitches (average of 2 pitches per climb).
Maybe the 1970-1984 period is the "Bridwell Era"
|
|
ablegabel
Trad climber
Livermore,Ca.
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2006 - 11:35am PT
|
Ed, I believe that I've put up at least 150+ pitches in the Valley with my good partners, and I know Coiler, Jay, Bernie, Brian(Way), Scott Burk, & Sean Joans have put up a lot too,so the numbers might be in the thousands, given all the other people who are active doing FA's.
|
|
nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2006 - 11:53am PT
|
Klaus put up a number of climbs, no? Coiler must have established two-hundred to three-hundred. Well, that is if you believe his spray! (Sorry oh coiled one, I couldn't resist).
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2006 - 02:27pm PT
|
I believe that there may be 1000+ new routes since 1991... it is entirely possible given what I hear, especially from a good source like Eric who's connected into the "FA scene", as well as comments on this Forum, e.g. from klaus whose count in the spread sheet does not equal his own count.
Any thoughts on how we might better communicate (if that is desirable) new route production? Right now the burden is on Donny Reid who is the recepient of the reports and the editor of the guide.
Melissa said that Brian Knight had a role in the past. Don't know how the publishers feel about some of this info being public though.
|
|
Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2006 - 02:42pm PT
|
It looks as if no one has had an abiding interest in collecting the FA information since the early 1990s. And therein lies the issue with guidebooks that are based on 'the best of...' rather than complete summaries.
I think it is cool to be able to look at Ed's chart and see in the peaks the year Sacherer hit the Valley or Pratt got out of the Army. I also like being able to point to the data when I tell people that Mark Klemens and Barry Bates sparked the free climbing craze in 1970s and energized Bridwell and everyone else.
This is additive and takes nothing away from anyone else's contributions. And this is not to say that others would not have done the same, but people came to the Valley not for virgin cliffs but to do their routes, routes that the prior generation walked by, shaking their heads, muttering, "I don't think so."
It is a cool story. I have the feeling that there are others like it in the years since, but it is not available to those of us on the sidelines.
Too bad, in my opinion.
|
|
aldude
climber
Monument Manor
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2006 - 04:55pm PT
|
No doubt tons of new routes being done but much like Josh how many are worth a sh*t. Maybe a count of routes with quality ratings would be more useful. But then I'm more of a quality vs quantity person. Donnie says new guide imminent!
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2006 - 04:59pm PT
|
How immenent?
i.e. Should we send him the stuff that we've done over the last couple of years or is it already time to wait for the next edition?
|
|
aldude
climber
Monument Manor
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2006 - 05:36pm PT
|
Yo Melissa, Can't speak directly for Don but I would always assume he is the man for reporting new routes to - de facto!
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2006 - 05:39pm PT
|
Of course...It seemed Way was helping him curate the info before, and J told him whatever he could, but it's been a couple of years. If the book is already at the printers, then there's no rush to draw up more recent topos. If the book is headed there in a few months, then perhaps there is.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2006 - 01:10am PT
|
The 1956-1957 bump up seems to be attributable to Mark Powell.....
The other bumps are harder to attribute...
1975
1978
1985
1986
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 29, 2006 - 01:55am PT
|
I was emailing with Roger about FFA's in the Valley and noticed that they seemed to be episodic... so here is the number per year from the database...
The 1960 peak is from 8 FFAs and included Mort Hempel, Irene Ortenberger, Steve Roper (2), Royal Robbins (2), Dave Rearick, Chuck Pratt, Yvon Chouinard, Tom Frost (2) and Dick McCracken.
The 1964 peak has 12 climbs, 11 of them had Frank Sacherer on the FFA, the only one without was a Kamps/Higgins FFA. Sacherer partners included John Morton, Chuck Pratt (2), Tom Gerughty (3), Wally Reed (2), jeff Dozier, Jim Bridwell, Bob Kamps, Andy Lichtman and Don Tlshaw. 1965: Tom Gerughty, Chris Fredricks(3), Chuck Pratt, Tom Higgins, Mike Dent, Steve Thompson, Frank Sacherer(2), Eric Beck, Ed Leeper, Greg Schaffer, Henry Mitchel. And 1966 John Hudson(2), Chris Fredricks(2), Galen Rowell, Tom Fender, Yvon Chouinard, Tom Frost, Eric Beck, Mark Klemens, Tom Kimbrough, Roman Laba, Royal Robbins..
1973 has a collection of climbers, Roger Breedlove, Alan Bard, Kevin Worrall (2), George Meyers, John Dill, Phil Gleason, Lou Dawson (2), Don Peterson(2), Dale Bard, Jim Bridwell, Ron Kauk, Steve Wunsch, Mark Chapman, Pete Livesey, Andreas Maurer, Jim Donini, John Bragg. 1974: Bob Finn, Chris Falkenstein, John Long(2), Pete Livesey, Ron Fawcett, Jay WIlson, Tobin Sorenson, John Bachar, Vern Clevenger, George Meyers, Tom Carter, Mark Chapman, Art Higbee. The 1975 peak has a more focused set: John Bachar(3), John Long(3), Ron Kauk(3), Tobin Sorenson(2), Tim Sorenson, Dale Bard(2), Werner Braun, Pete Livesey(3), Trevor Jones, Vern Clevenger
1985: Steve Schneider, Rob Oraveitz, Peter Croft, Dan Phillips, John Oakerman, Ron Kauk(2), John Yablonski, Kim Carrigan, Jonny Woodward(2), Maria Cranor
And finally 1988:Elliot Robinson(2), Steve Annecone(2), Clint Cummins(2), Todd Skinner, Paul Piana, Dan Nguyen Dave Schultz, Scott Cosgrove. 1989: Dave Sessions, Tucker Tech(2), Walt Shipley(4), Xavier Bongard, Kevin Fosburg(2), Elliot Robinson, John Harpole, Keith Reynolds, Alvino Pon, Clint Cummins, Joel Ager
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 29, 2006 - 07:06pm PT
|
"complete" FFA list for the Valley from the spread sheet
Frank Sacherer 16
Walt Shipley 10
John Long 8
Ron Kauk 6
Steve Roper 6
Chris Fredricks 5
Dave Schultz 5
Pete Livesey 5
Royal Robbins 5
Scott Cosgrove 5
Chuck Pratt 4
Don Reid 4
Elliot Robinson 4
Jim Bridwell 4
John Bachar 4
Kevin Fosburg 4
Ray Jardine 4
Tom Gerughty 4
Bob Kamps 3
Clint Cummins 3
Dale Bard 3
Mark Chapman 3
Tobin Sorenson 3
Tom Frost 3
Tom Higgins 3
Tucker Tech 3
Wally Reed 3
Alan Watts 2
Andy Lichtman 2
Art Higbee 2
Barry Bates 2
Chris Falkenstein 2
Don Peterson 2
Eric Beck 2
Galen Rowell 2
George Meyers 2
Jim Donini 2
John Hudson 2
Jonny Woodward 2
Kevin Worrall 2
Kim Schmitz 2
Linda McGinnis 2
Lou Dawson 2
Loyd Price 2
Mark Hudon 2
Mark Klemens 2
Mark Powell 2
Max Jones 2
Merle Alley 2
Pat Ament 2
Paul Piana 2
Rich Calderwood 2
Rik Rieder 2
Roger Breedlove 2
Steve Annecone 2
Steve Wunsch 2
Todd Skinner 2
Vern Clevenger 2
Werner Braun 2
Yvon Chouinard 2
Alan Bard 1
Alan Bartlett 1
Alan Roberts 1
Alex Huber 1
Alvino Pon 1
Andreas Maurer 1
Augie Klein 1
Bill Feuerer 1
Bill Price 1
Bob Finn 1
Bob Gaines 1
Brooke Sandahl 1
Bryan Milton 1
Carl Jonasson 1
Chick Holtkamp 1
Chris Bellizzi 1
Chris Jones 1
Chuck Ostin 1
Chuck Wilts 1
Claude Fiddler 1
Dan Nguyen 1
Dan Phillips 1
Dave Rearick 1
Dave Sessions 1
Dick Erb 1
Dick McCracken 1
Dimitri Barton 1
Don Telshaw 1
Drew Davol 1
Ed Barry 1
Ed Leeper 1
Eric Erickson 1
Eric Zschiesche 1
George Sessions 1
Grant Hiskes 1
Greg Murphy 1
Greg Schaffer 1
Greg Sonagere 1
Henry Mitchel 1
Howard Sturgis 1
Irene Ortenberger 1
Jay Smith 1
Jay WIlson 1
Jeff Dozier 1
Jim Erickson 1
Jim Madsen 1
Joe Hedge 1
Joe Oliger 1
Joel Ager 1
John Bragg 1
John Dill 1
John Fiske 1
John Harpole 1
John Morton 1
John Oakerman 1
John Ohrenshcall 1
John Yablonski 1
Keith Reynolds 1
Ken Yager 1
Kevin Bein 1
Kim Carrigan 1
Krehe Ritter 1
Kurt Smith 1
Larry Dalke 1
Larry Hawley 1
Larry Marshik 1
Lloyd Price 1
Lynn Hill 1
Margret Young 1
Maria Cranor 1
Mark Moore 1
Marty Martin 1
Mike Borghoff 1
Mike Dent 1
Mike Farrell 1
Mike Graham 1
Mort Hempel 1
Nathan Robinson 1
Paul Crawford 1
Pete Minks 1
Peter Barton 1
Peter Croft 1
Peter Haan 1
Peter Mayfield 1
Phil Gleason 1
Rick Cashner 1
Rick Linkert 1
Rob Oraveitz 1
Roger Greatrick 1
Roman Laba 1
Ron Fawcett 1
Ron Harrison 1
Spencer Austin 1
Steve Schneider 1
Steve Sutton 1
Steve Thompson 1
Thomas Huber 1
Tim Sorenson 1
Tom Carter 1
Tom Fender 1
Tom Kimbrough 1
Trevor Jones 1
Wayne Hildebrand 1
Xavier Bongard 1
Yvon Chouinard 1
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
Ed,
> Climbs that Tucker was listed on the FA, by year
>
> 1985 6
> 1986 3
> 1987 17
> 1988 24
> 1989 82
> 1990 10
> 1991 1
> 1992 1
>
> 1989 seems to have been heavily influenced by Tucker's activities
Part of this might be an artifact of the way the FA records entered the database, though. 27 of Tucker's routes are listed in the 1994 Reid guide as "Tucker Tech, et al, late-1980s", and this was translated to "Tucker Tech, 1989" when the database was created. If they were randomly distributed across 1987-89, Tucker's climbs would still be quite peaked in 1989, but slightly less so:
Tucker's First Ascents:
1987: 17 -> 26
1988: 24 -> 33
1989: 82 -> 64
In terms of the initial graph which is peaked in 1989, "late 1980s" appears 57 times for first ascents. If we distribute these randomly among 1987, 88, and 89, (19 each), then 1987 and 1989 are about tied for number of first ascents:
All First Ascents:
1987: 110 -> 129
1988: 65 -> 84
1989: 170 -> 132
So the "late 1980s" coding did have an effect on the graph. But we don't actually know the true effect. Probably the numbers did not divide evenly. Maybe the majority was in 1989; we just don't know.
[Edited April 10, after counting occurences of "late 1980s"]
|
|
Johno
Big Wall climber
Cape Town / Japan
|
|
Klaus = Bad ass.
No list is close to complete without his FA's.
There should be a period called Eric's era.
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
Tucker Tech's most current photo (taken today...) He did another FA today;....still at it....
How does he do it?...What is his secret?
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Apr 11, 2009 - 03:28am PT
|
Update for Ed and other trivia enthusiasts - I edited my post of April 3, which had speculated about routes labelled "late 1980s" being all counted as 1989 in the graph/tables. Instead of guessing, I counted occurences of "late 1980s" in the 1994 guidebook. Tucker's year for most FAs was probably still 1989, but for total FAs in Yosemite, 1987 and 1989 are probably about tied.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 36 of total 36 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!