Ex-cop exchanges fire with authorities: Report

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wbw

Trad climber
'cross the great divide
Feb 16, 2013 - 02:22pm PT
Largo, you're making this too philosophical. There is a code of something that cops are supposed to follow when they carry out their duties as law enforcement officers. The non-emotional side of me knows that there are good, professional cops. I have a hard time acknowledging that given my experience with cops and everything one hears.

Most cops don't follow that code; laws, your ethics, my ethics, whatever you want to call it. That's why so many people do not trust cops to protect and serve. That's a real shame. Society should be grateful to those that do it's difficult and necessary work.

And Werner, I don't take myself so seriously as you think. Just get tired of you playing your thing both ways.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 16, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
Actually, my point is an entirely practical matter, sans ALL philosophy.

Philosophy is a cognitive process. A power struggle plays off aggression, which is a brain stem or instinctual energy much more primitive than thoughts. Once that gets engaged, and its aggression against aggression, oversight committees and fancy ethics and so forth simply find no play in many cases.

My point being what we might like - total accountability and adherence to a sober, humane ethic - is something having nothing to do with the power struggle itself ("good" versus "bad"). We on the sidelines WANT responsible, non-violent action if and when possible, but there is no way to impose this on the folks in the fray. That leaves us blathering on the sidelines, like two bald men arguing over a comb.

What we are doing here is having a conversation about a milieu where our opinions count for little to nothing at all. That brings out the advocate in some of us - and this also has no bearing on the power struggle, which mostly operates on its own set of rules. This short-circuits many still under the illusion that public policy need only be on the books to count in the real world. But history does not bear this out at all.

JL
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Feb 16, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
Cops are a reflection of society. there is good and bad in both realms.
I worked, and mountain biked with a really nice kid. He decided that he wanted to become a cop(which he did). He said one of the reasons he wanted to become a cop is so that he could ticket all the yuppie girls, and their ilk, that used to snub him.

Back in 2006, I was driving my eighty-eight year old mother to Missouri for family business. Got pulled over just east of Flagstaff because "we fit the profile of drug runners." wtf

Like 'em or hate 'em cops are a necessity because they prevent anarchy, and anarchy begets chaos
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 19, 2013 - 02:28am PT
Poitn well taken. But in my experience, the "rules" that matter to those actually involved are written not by legislators but by - those involved. These rules say - here lies a killing field. Once you enter it, guns drawn or blazing, you are fair game. We in the peanut gallery say the people involved should behave as we see, under our oversight, but has this ever really played out in the real world, or do those with the weapons and official status and those who are outlaws just do pretty much as they please, and have done so since the beginning of time?

My point being what we might like - total accountability and adherence to a sober, humane ethic - is something having nothing to do with the power struggle itself ("good" versus "bad"). We on the sidelines WANT responsible, non-violent action if and when possible, but there is no way to impose this on the folks in the fray. That leaves us blathering on the sidelines, like two bald men arguing over a comb.

There are two "real world" games going on.

There's the one between the cops and the perps, and we're on the sidelines in that game. With Dorner the cops won that one.

Then there's the game between the cops and the public. We're non on the sidelines in this game.The cops are dependent on the public for support. They need the public's tax dollars, respect and the support of the public serving on juries. In every interaction with a perp, they can gain more support or lose some of the support they've gained in the past.

In this game, the Dorner interaction was a loss for them.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 19, 2013 - 02:44am PT
This isn't showing any signs of dying.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-should-christopher-dorners-case-prompt-a-new-christopher-commission-20130218,0,3911192.story

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57569876-504083/christopher-dorner-supporters-rally-in-front-of-lapd-headquarters/

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57569203-504083/christopher-dorner-website-creator-he-seemed-like-a-good-guy-forced-into-a-bad-situation/

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/feb/16/local/la-me-dorner-20130216

Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Feb 19, 2013 - 02:48am PT
So GC,

Would you be so academic in your above expressions if this armed Dorner individual stole your car, while throwing you out, saying,"I don't want to hurt you"...

Is there some tacit comfort presumed, without being in this real situation for those that were actually challenged ?

Or do you just feel down with the cause when it comes to what really happened and are presumptuous about being respected by a stranger for you opinions in a bad situation ?

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:02am PT
So GC,

Would you be so academic in your above expressions if this armed Dorner individual stole your car, while throwing you out, saying,"I don't want to hurt you"...

Is there some tacit comfort presumed, without being in this real situation for those that were actually challenged ?

Or do you just feel down with the cause when it comes to what really happened and are presumptuous about being respected by a stranger for you opinions in a bad situation ?

I don't believe I understand your second question well enough to answer it.

Or do you just feel down with the cause when it comes to what really happened and are presumptuous about being respected by a stranger for you opinions in a bad situation ?

If you can explain better what you are asking here, I'll try to answer it.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:10am PT
What we are doing here is having a conversation about a milieu where our opinions count for little to nothing at all. That brings out the advocate in some of us - and this also has no bearing on the power struggle, which mostly operates on its own set of rules. This short-circuits many still under the illusion that public policy need only be on the books to count in the real world. But history does not bear this out at all.


John, I think the above concept is a abrogation to any responsibility for anything that goes on.

Your opinion counts for little, if your sponsor offers you alcohol.
Should you not express your opinion?

Your opinion counts for little, if priests, teachers, and scoutmasters abuse children?
Should you not express your opinion?

There are a lot of other examples.

The only way that we exist in a society is through normative behavior, which is agreed upon.

How can we agree on behavior, if we do not discuss it?
How can we improve it?

Surely, that is not how you raise children, remaining mute?

I think discussion is a VERY important activity.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Feb 19, 2013 - 03:21am PT
So, to whom of the 3 or so posters taking a shift as GC tonight, I can only hope you re read the above post from me and try to get it on an adult level.

I still have what ever "you" are, on notice for libel as posted above. Lawyers and all have been consulted because I have friends in that field willing to help. The first thing they said when I explained your libel was, "What ?!?!, who would be so outrageous"?

You would.

Thinking that posting on the internet equals a free pass is kind of simple Francis.



climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Feb 19, 2013 - 10:41am PT
WTH? Are you suing an ST member for something said on this forum?
Ryan Tetz

Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
Feb 19, 2013 - 10:56am PT
Woh anyone that mentions lawyers in a serious tone on a climbers forum regardless of what manner of curse words or slander has been directed at them is a total d#@&%e bag. I don't get how so many people take supertopo so seriously.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Feb 19, 2013 - 11:01am PT
I knew a college teacher that taught some evening class for cops (can't remember what it was).
He said it was the worst class for cheating he ever had.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 19, 2013 - 12:35pm PT
Or do you just feel down with the cause when it comes to what really happened and are presumptuous about being respected by a stranger for you opinions in a bad situation ?

I re-read this and it still makes no sense. I thought you were trying to ask a serious question. If you have an honest question put it in words that are understandable to me and I will give you an honest answer.

As for your last post, I will respond to that also, when I have more time. Since that's off topic here, it might needs its own thread.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Feb 19, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
There could not be a worse case in which to judge police conduct. I think we all knew that this would be the outcome. Quite possible there was no other outcome. Dorner did not seem like the sort of fellow who wanted to be judged by his peers.

As to the libel, about the last thing any lawyer wants to here is a potential internet libel/slander/defamation case. Do not sue, just fill out a ButtHurt Report and get on with life.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/7771818/Butt-Hurt-Report-Form
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Feb 19, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
^^^^^^^^
HAHAHAHA ! ! !
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Feb 19, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
I just looked over that form and realized that I have been the victim of ButtHurt far more often than I realized.

Looks like I've got some paperwork to do.

It's gonna be another 90 hour work week....
BooYah

Social climber
Ely, Nv
Feb 19, 2013 - 10:32pm PT
Your a Major DICK, Coz. But I figger you knew that.
More murder does not make murder ok.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
hey roxie
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 19, 2013 - 10:39pm PT
John, I think the above concept is a abrogation to any responsibility for anything that goes on.

No,

It is an observation of reality.
Heyzeus

climber
Hollywood,Ca
Feb 19, 2013 - 11:43pm PT
Largo et al make good points but the thing not addressed is the "thin blue line" aspect. Unfortunately, they have to react the way they did. There's really not much stopping the bad guys, it's all an illusion, and that illusion must be kept up with 1 million dollar rewards and total PD swarming and gang mentality, otherwise any one can think it's kosher to kill a cop. Then where would we be? There just not much stopping the dark side from overtaking humans better instincts (in the physical sense). It keeps us "safe", the cops reacting as they did, even though I'm super disappointed in their reaction personally, wish they could have held themselves to a higher standard. Plus, they totally f*#ked up in the end and made a Robin Hood out of the guy.
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