and I bet you thought Twight was dead????

A decade and more ago I cared deeply about the way we climbed more than whether we were successful

People lie on resumés and cheat on tests to get jobs

I have always appreciated Twight’s articles and that he expresses his point of view, whether I agree or not.

then you are gonna just love what is coming next :)

Cheating is commonplace and doping is rampant, even at the lowest levels of sport

So Mallory, Irvine, Hillary, and Tenzing all cheated their way up Everest and didn't inspire anyone in the process?!

I cannot think of a single test-piece that puts him in the realm of a Jello, or Messner... Nada nothing.

have nothing better to do and have minds the size of walnuts

maybe he has done some note worthy climbs, and is modest about them

Juat eat a dick already and STFU

Those that use every prop available....including fixed ropes to the summit, are dilettantes and not true climbers. A logical extension is that routes will become more prepared and more comfortized to accomodate more and more climbers that have the time and MONEY but not the skill and preparation such peaks should require.

On the other hand, if we can't use oxygen to explore extreme environments, then do we have to reconsider deep ocean and space exploration and wonder: did we get to the moon by fair means? That seems silly. [But, arguably a non sequitur, because the tops of our high peaks are, for some, attainable without oxygen.]

How many here complain about the hordes of tourists climbing Half Dome?
That's the same thing that Twight complains about in describing the "noobs" on the west butt of Denali

The comparison of hormone therapy and epo doping in professional sport with the use of bottled oxygen and diamox in mountaineeringis completely ridiculous.

I think this sneering down at the idiots on Rainer or Everest for using O2 or diamox is just a bit over the top. Ifv you don't like how they climb then go do your own climbing.

Noobs on Denali put others at MUCH MORE serious danger than noobs on half dome.

Anybody who climbs Denali by a "trade route" should be cognizant of the zoo he/she is entering.

Quite obvious to you Tarbuster, but doesn't seem to be so obvious to many posting here.

A proposition....how about all of the wonderful, usually much more technical, mountains surrounding the Pig?

Fact is Everest and Rainer, like it or not, is where the low brow mob can practice their own little bit of Bushido. Its fun for us superior types to laugh at them over a beer but the second you start to despise them in all seriousness you better go take a good hard look in the mirror.

Its fun for us superior types to laugh at them over a beer but the second you start to despise them in all seriousness you better go take a good hard look in the mirror.

Hopefully this is what Twight is really driving at.

Whillans boxes siege style (Scott, Haston etc.)

Roy, you were one of the people to proudly usher in rap bolting in JT, BITD, laughing arrogantly at those of us who tried to preserve the resource at the time. You made fun of me for caring so much about the SFHD being rap bolted, why the bleeding heart for Everest?

Just because some have climbed at 8000 meters peaks without O2 proves nothing, beyond the fact that these few are risking severe brain damage and probably would be the first to grab for a bottle if they started having problems. Jim these studs are proving nothing but the wiliness to ruin their brains, and disregard their lives, in a selfish pursuit, with no greater value than self. To use this suicidal behavior as an example that the world should follow, is nothing short of absurd.

Those that use every prop available....including fixed ropes to the summit, are dilettantes and not true climbers. A logical extension is that routes will become more prepared and more comfortized to accomodate more and more climbers that have the time and MONEY but not the skill and preparation such peaks should require.

Couldn't agree more, if you read my story in Largo's last book, Yosemite Climbers or some such, I express the madness behind this mind set.

So now if I climb the same route using equipment and techniques used by 99.9 percent of the community, am I cheating? What is cheating?

And Patrick...Ya man! I have been on the seen for two shark attacks to friends. Same area. Objective danger keeps us all honest and certainly trivializes these debates....

coz, your hardcore alphadog style of communicating is hysterical!

Sent from my I Phone.

I will say that the way you enter these conversations is sometimes a bit like a bull in a china shop and I'm not always all that clear where you're coming from with the stuff you bring.

I could agree with the notion that it's a team sport on some levels, and that fixed ropes can have a place in some forms of climbing however the use of oxygen has no place, is cheating and overrules all other claim to achievement. Supplemental O2 is doping - without question. It is not a medical necessity, which is proven by many, many ascents of 8000m peaks without supplemental O2.

Why isn't supplemental oxygen viewed as doping? Some argue that it is a safety issue, that they do not want to take the risk of altitude illness, or frostbite.

If O2 allows one to accomplish a task that he or she otherwise could not do or was not willing to do then O2 is a performance-enhancing drug and should be treated as such.

Times have changed. Cheating is commonplace and doping is rampant, even at the lowest levels of sport.

1976 Torre Egger - First Ascent - with John Bragg, and Jay Wilson from the United States, by climbing first to the col between the Egger and Cerro Torre, the Col of Conquest, and then up the ridge to the peak. The ascent was hampered by bad weather and took from December 1975 to February 22, 1976 when the 3-person team summitted.
1978 North Ridge on Latok I, Karakorum Range, Pakistan. Attempt with Michael Kennedy, George Lowe and Jeff Lowe (climber) (all USA).
1991 Cobra Pillar on the east face of Mount Barrille, Ruth Gorge, Alaska Range, Alaska, USA (VI 5.10+ A3 WI5? 2300m) FA with Jack Tackle (USA), June 5–10, 1991.
1991 Viper Ridge, south spur of southeast ridge to ridge, Mount Foraker, Alaska Range, Alaska USA. FA with Jack Tackle (USA), June 11–17, 1991.
2000 Lightning Spur, south face Thunder Mountain, Alaska Range, Alaska USA. FA with John Bragg (USA).

I never claimed to be a roll model in climbing.

the debate over oz is a bit like the debate over chalk.

O2 used to summit Everest is doping. Period. It is absolutely no different than the cyclist who dopes to achieve better performance. Is it cheating? It depends on the rules by which you play your game.

The Omnibus and ST approved and adopted Climbers Code Of Conduct Page 1127 Paragraph 13 section 7-A clearly states the use of a supplemental Donini on any climbing ascent is considered out of bounds and disqualifies the validity of said ascent due to the use of way to much BADASS, Please see appendix chart 157a regarding the validity of Descents when using a Donini.

FAKT: few of twight's critics could have sherpa'd his O2 on Denali, much less the Big E

I will happily carry down discarded gear that Twight has dumped on mountains because he was too weak to carry down (though he later sprayed about how strong they'd been on those routes).

I will pay you $500 for the Camalot Backes/House/Twight left on the Slovak. PM me when you have happily retrieved it.

What about using 02 scuba diving is that cheating?

Or how about using 02 period, perhaps Twight holds his breath?

Ya ought to check that sh#t at the door unless you would actually do it to his face.

It is PRECISELY because climbing to the summit is of no use to anyone but the person who does it that the MEANS in which it is done becomes that much more important. It's just a game after all.

If, by climbing a peak, one could find a cure for cancer on top, ANY means to get there
would be appropriate.

As climbing progresses vis a vis improved equipment, technique, training, knowledge etc. .....climbers should embrace the advances to summit peaks in better style.

That a very select portion of the mountains has become cluttered with neophytes looking to bag trophies with any means at their disposal is what I think some of us are talking about. That it has an impact which is unsustainable and that it sometimes increases hazards through overcrowding is what I find patently obvious.

Like paying some young kid to carry your sh#t to the captain and then carrying it down for you.

Is mary jane, coffee, and donuts a performance enhancing substance?

Gotta say, consistant tweaks at Twight here and else where on the Taco, and the personal attacks on Twight are some weak ass, lame, sh#t.

But it's fun BSing here on the Taco when I can't get out and climb today.