and I bet you thought Twight was dead????

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RDB

Social climber
wa
Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 29, 2013 - 03:03am PT
http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2013/01/what-cheaters-have-done-to-us.html

Add to that list Diamox for clients, guides and the idoits on Rainier.

Did it myself on occasion bitd but agreed with Twight on this and would take the label of cheater even further now obviously.
bhilden

Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
Jan 29, 2013 - 03:13am PT
Marc Twight isn't dead. He's based out of Salt Lake City. Among other things he's been doing some personal training for movie actors including the recent movie '300' and it's sequel. He's totally into road cycling these days. Our paths crossed on bikes in the Dolomites this summer. BTW, he is just as badass on a bike as he was on rock, ice and snow!
orangesporanges

Social climber
Jan 29, 2013 - 04:43am PT
A decade and more ago I cared deeply about the way we climbed more than whether we were successful
People lie on resumés and cheat on tests to get jobs

MFT has stated that he attempted Everest alpine style
They turned back when his team mate got crook
Some may think he burdened others
When he used oxygen cached by another team to treat his crook climbing buddy
Because they hadn't bought along any oxygen themselves

MFT dumped rope up on Denali
Because he no longer needed it to complete the route

MFT once....
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 29, 2013 - 07:21am PT
Twight's not dead???

DMT
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jan 29, 2013 - 07:44am PT
Dead to me after that article bashing all the ordinary/poser climbers on Denali while his team abandons/litters their tents and gear to move fast like real posers and then basicly needs to be rescued by using other climbers tents and gear on the decent to survive at 17k
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Jan 29, 2013 - 07:52am PT
"When I look across a variety of disciplines it is apparent that no one is special and no one is immune: when a group of human beings get together some percentage of them are going to cheat or be susceptible to the idea of it. Sadly, it appears this is true for any sport..."--O.P.

If I were to use an inhaler on the YPB, would I be cheating? Would you deny me the pleasure of announcing I had done it? Who on earth would care,
or would I have the approbation of the community for having done it as an older climber still "with it"? There is no difference in the ethic involved. You either have assistance or not.

It is legal, it's got that going for it.

crock

Trad climber
The Windiest Mountain, Wyoming
Jan 29, 2013 - 09:09am PT
Any climber that uses sticky rubber or cams is dead to me.
Degaine

climber
Jan 29, 2013 - 09:14am PT
Can there be cheating in an activity that has no rules or organized competition?

I have always appreciated Twight’s articles and that he expresses his point of view, whether I agree or not.

Per the article referenced, I’m curious as to where he draws the line. Given the tone of the article, by his definition, only Goran Kropp has climbed Everest by fair, “non cheating” means.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Jan 29, 2013 - 11:46am PT
I have always respected is climbing prowess, but thought he was an egotistical ass.
I've changed my mind. One just has to understand where he is coming from
RDB

Social climber
wa
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2013 - 11:49am PT
"Dead to me after that article bashing all the ordinary/poser climbers on Denali while his team abandons/litters their tents and gear to move fast like real posers and then basicly needs to be rescued by using other climbers tents and gear on the decent to survive at 17k"

then you are gonna just love what is coming next :)
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 29, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
Funny how well "judge not lest you be judged" applies here.

I suppose we have all made statements about others climbing that were definitely negative. We can tend to rip into others especially among friends.

Twight has printed some of that type of stuff. So it's not too surprising that it comes back on him when something he has done might not quite hold up to highest possible standards.

What a difference from someone like Alex Lowe. He seemed to like everyone, I never heard him say or be reported to say crap about others. He's a guy everyone liked.

Both amazing Alpinists yet perceived so differently.

Some of what Twight writes seems to be a bit of a "schtick" that he uses cause it sells. I've heard folks who know him say a lot of good things about him. Funny intelligent, decent guy in real life. He certainly has a way of putting things such that you tend to think on it. Maybe even agree even if it does sound jerkish.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Jan 29, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
I have always appreciated Twight’s articles and that he expresses his point of view, whether I agree or not.

Yes that! It is nice to hear what is REALLY on someone's mind.

AND I will give a lot of credibility to one who has the balls to get on Slovac Direct with a day pack (among MANY other routes that appear semi insane).

But has he done steroids (or other performance enhancing drugs) himself? I don't know. Trust no one. Especially when they talk a lot (like Armstrong, who sued everyone who called him a cheater).

then you are gonna just love what is coming next :)

so what's next?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 29, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
10b4me, you aren't far off....however, i do agree with him in this area.
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jan 29, 2013 - 12:18pm PT
What Tradman said.
RDB

Social climber
wa
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2013 - 12:18pm PT
The Donini I knew had an ego as well and could be a prick. Just not generally an egotistical prick.

Anyone that sticks their head up and voices an opinion gets my respect. You don't have to love them or the opinion.

Slovak? Easy to judge on that one...harder to understand the effort or style 13 years later. Not a lot then or now that have played that game.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 29, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
Everest is dead to me, and my friends who are still on it.
It's just Public Assisstance for Sherpas and mountain pimps.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 29, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
As to the cheating thing and O2. GAAAAAAG ME WITH A SPOON PLEASE!!!!!

What an old and tired argument. It's like a cheap troll post. Right up there with bolting controversies. 40 years of this or more. Seriously?!

Whatever tools you use to play this pointless game are up to you. You make the rules at least when it comes to technique. Just be honest is one of the few real rules.
RDB

Social climber
wa
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
Really? How about Diamox on Denali...."just to be safe".

You good with that?

I have friends that use Diamox on Rainier..."just to be safe".

You good with that?

I don't see the difference between that and testosterine use in age group atheletes.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 29, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
Actually no, I don't care if they use diamox, or went on 02 at 14k feet lol or meth or speed or HGH or any of that crap. But if you use a tool on a route then it should be in the TR.

I personally may not have any interest in using such but I don't give a crap if others who have nothing to do with me use it. We all have our own peculiar mix of reasons for and standards by which we want to climb.

But don't go blaze up some heinous alpine route in 2 days of non-stop climbing using speed and then not mention that it is how you managed not to need sleep. Do what you like, say what you did. It aint cheating if everyone knows the rules you played the game by.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Jan 29, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
Sadly, when someone who has climbed Everest with the aid of supplemental O2 and a "servant" to carry the extra bottles and prepare the route tells a rapt audience of non-climbers that he climbed Everest that is all he says. He fixates on the outcome and not the means used to achieve it. And if the audience isn't well-informed enough to ask about the means the speaker lets the omission slide, allowing them to think better of him.

And if you do point out all the aid the person used you will be looked at as a mean douche bag. By most at least.

I dunno this Everest/Lance Armstrong topic been beaten to death lately. There will be crowds, there will be oxygen/diamox, people won't be able to go for speed records without O2 because of the crowds. Steroids/O2 were there BITD too. It is not just this generation that does it. But post "Everest Beyond The Limit" a lot of people got into mountaineering just to climb Everest, I bet.

EMBARRASSING Confession: I got into mountaineering after I watched Everest Beyond the limit. I bought both seasons and thought it was the hardest thing ever- to climb the 7 summits. As I started getting out in Sierra (in 2010) I developed love for the outdoors in general and for the challenge of climbing peaks that are more difficult. In 2011 I did Denali unguided. We failed to do west rib because of conditions but getting to the top was a challenge. Even though I did not like the crowds, it was still a good experience. Than I picked up rock climbing because it was more of a challenge, and I could take harder routes on peaks. A challenge that is so complicated that you can never be as good as you want in all of it. Crack climbing, ice climbing, slab climbing, clean aid climbing/walls, nailing, face climbs (crimpy overhanging shit), mixed climbing. Lots of variety here! So I guess I owe Everest a thank you, but in the mean time have no desire to climb it.

I have friends that use Diamox on Rainier..."just to be safe".

You good with that?

I guess you missed the thread I started on summitpost about Diamox use. Pretty much everyone said I was a dick for even suggesting it shouldn't be used.

It aint cheating if everyone knows the rules you played the game by.

Very good point also. Not everyone has to play by your rules. Mountaineering is personal, and people usually do not see things same way.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 29, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
Did somebody say Lance Armstrong?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 29, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
I don't quite see the parallel of using O2 on the big E and bike doping. There is much to criticize about the average shmoe on everest but none of it involves overt deception nor any flagrantly fraudulent profiting. Its a bit like mocking some fatso drunk for inner tubing down a river and bragging about it at work. No doubt it would really be more rad if he was a proper marleborro man in a kayak but thats our problem, not his. He isn't doing anything other than what he set out to so what's with our indignation?

LA on the other hand is a fraud. A really cool and rad fraud but a fraud non the less. I think Twight is right about the miss placed hero worship and I'm glad the chickens are coming home to roost for Lance but it will be interesting to see whether he gets a slap on the wrist in deference to his awesomeness, which is what that useless tw#t Oprah was doing. There's no reason why he can't rebuild his life - starting at the bottom after paying off all his debts.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jan 29, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
Have never used Diamox myself. Fortunately I acclimatize well and easily. A few people I know who struggle at altitude (they take a couple days longer to feel ok) and have tried Diamox find the side effects worse than the benefits. My gf, for example, had so much disconcerting body tingling and nausea from the drug that mere altitude sickness was much preferable.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jan 29, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
A little something Twightful for y'all...

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=963476&msg=1494155#msg1494155

The man has never been short on shrieks or opinions. LOL
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 29, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
About diamox - apart from a a dieretic effect is there a physiological problem? I remember peter hacket said he took a quarter tab a day above 10 k. I hear people are taking viagra now!
Alpamayo

Trad climber
Chapel Hill, NC
Jan 29, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
Yeah...the worst side-effect is that Diamox makes beer (or any other carbonated beverage) taste like shit!
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 29, 2013 - 01:24pm PT
Well that shit's out of the kit for sure then. You can cheat, use IV drugs.. a helicopter or a tram for all I care..

But don't be f*#king with the BEER!
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Jan 29, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
Twight: the gift that keeps on giving :-)
Twight: the gift that keeps on giving :-)
Credit: Tami
cowpoke

climber
Jan 29, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
Cheating is commonplace and doping is rampant, even at the lowest levels of sport
Such a great line.

This outstanding piece deserves attention among non-climbers...ny times op-Ed level.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 29, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
Is Twit still an as#@&%e, or did he get over that?
PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
Jan 29, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
So Mallory, Irvine, Hillary, and Tenzing all cheated their way up Everest and didn't inspire anyone in the process?!

LOL!
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 29, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
Paul, they were climbing into the unknown with equipment....ropes protection gear, clothing, tents, sleeping bags, and oxygen gear that people today would be aghast at using. They also didn't have satellite connections to get instant weather reports and the body of knowledge concerning 8000 meter peaks was minimal. Most importantly, they didn't have fixed ropes on every slope that was a teeny bit steep.
Given all of that....yes, their achievements were notable, and, yes, they are very deserving of our respect.
Something you already know.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Jan 29, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
So Mallory, Irvine, Hillary, and Tenzing all cheated their way up Everest and didn't inspire anyone in the process?!

At that point it was not a proven fact that humans CAN get up that thing without O2. They were in an unknown zone.

Now we do know it is possible for those who train hard enough and get lucky enough. It would be cool if getting up Everest would be done only by those who do it without O2 (and other drugs that bring the mountain down to your level). Than the achievement would actually mean something. Something only a few can do, you know? Kind of like red pointing a 5.14 or something, not every guy with enough money can do it. Have to put a life time of work into it.
cowpoke

climber
Jan 29, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
The historical point that Paul brings up is interesting, but I think it is worth considering that through the history of sport people have felt free to simultaneously: (1) admire the achievements of those who played by a different set of rules than the present day athlete (and, in some instances, used methods that are called cheating today) and (2) be persistent in the belief that today's definitions of cheating are valid.

One case, in point, is Hall of Fame football player Lester Hayes and his use of "stickum." Simultaneously, history shines favorably (the hall) on his achievements and unfavorably (continued ban on "stickum") on his methods, because that "cheating" was not yet against the rules.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 29, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
I never even heard about Diamox before this thread. Guess I have to look it up. My best altitude heights are the three Mexican volcanoes. Not that difficult and I was the only one in the party to do all three (yeah, big deal, point is I had no altitude problems, but then, in the Death Zone, it is different of course).

Oxygen use, hmmm, if I was to climb an 8,000 meter peak, would I at least carry a canister? I don't know, but I hope you can ask me about it someday.

As long as I do not leave it laying as garbage on the mountain.

But I agree the use of O2 on Everest is contentious. But I think that more criticism should be aimed the climbing pimp companies that line their pockets by allowing "non-climbers" to go on expeditions.

Am I being judgmental? Why not, this is a very judgmental thread. That said, I am trying to cut down on being judgmental (and opinionated), as I just had a major falling out with my oldest brother over judgment, words and email flames (my fault but he should know better. Hah hah).

Will we reconcile, I doubt it, unfortunately.

I don't know much about Mark Twight. But I have met Jello a couple of times and have the utmost respect for him.
wstmrnclmr

Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
Jan 29, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
Donini and Vitaly....Paul obviously agrees with you. One needs only to watch Conrad Anker's "The Wildest Dream" to see just how hard it was and still is to climb Everest with the equipment Mallory used despite Conrad's modern knowledge of what it takes to climb Everest. Agree with climbski2, especially in the context of climbing in which everything and anything are used to achieve. As long as your honest, who gives a flip? And also agree with Vitaly that you can make your own rules, especially in a less public or societal (at large)venue like climbing but you should still be honest about it. As climbski2 says 'the only real rule' which is universal. If Armstrong was honest the first time he was asked, all would be forgiven. And it may be too late for Ray Lewis who has already denied use and claims to be an instrument of God. Although Twight makes for great reading and makes points most of us probably agree with, it is hard to take from such a hypocrite.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jan 29, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
I have to take Diamox to cross Vail Pass.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Jan 29, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
Armstrong was a totally different deal. Professional athlete being paid for what he was doing and publicly denying that was using the drugs to gain advantage. I know people that didn't race in Europe because of the drug scene. It affected them.

Diamox or O2 for Joe Blow is different. Not much different in my mind than hiring sherpas or hiring a trainer. Not really how I'd want to do it, but them doing it doesn't really affect my experience unless they are littering O2 bottles all over the place.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Jan 29, 2013 - 06:35pm PT
^^^^ in Twights defense, he admits that
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 29, 2013 - 06:36pm PT
If everyone would just stop using oxygen, there would be a level playing field...
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jan 29, 2013 - 06:44pm PT
Well, you can give up oxygen you want but I am going to continue to use it until the day I die!
orangesporanges

Social climber
Jan 29, 2013 - 08:09pm PT
I cannot think of a single test-piece that puts him in the realm of a Jello, or Messner... Nada nothing.

How about 'Beyond Good and Evil'? He was Piolet D'or nominated for that route. Or is anything but the true summit just an attempt?

And yes. MFT does actually care what others think about him - he's authored his own Wikipedia page. Twitters about himself endlessly. Has his own Youtube channel now.

Does Donini have a Youtube channel? Marko Prezelj Twitter?

MFT may be right about some-things. But, in his own words: "talk - action = zero". He left plenty of junk in the hills when he couldn't be f'd carrying it. And he 'finished' several well-sprayed routes early, just as the grade was about to start punching above 5.10.

Hollywood actors that MFT personally trained for several months speak of how he redefined mountain climbing and seem confused when they speak of him breaking "world records in mountain climbing" - watch the 300 movie interviews. Where would they have gotten that confusion from?

FAKT: House lead all the hard pitches on there big pushes. MFT "retired" from climbing when House said he wanted to start trying for FA'
s on bigger, more technical climbs in true alpine style. As for MFT's big spray about Hunter with Backes - they were following someone else's topo up a somewhat established route - it was rad, but redefining-cutting edge?

It only annoyed me because this dude confuses me. Everyone (especially himself) talks of how bad arse he was. But couldn't climb hard technical rock. Declared FA's that finished before the summit. Leaves crap on mountains because he couldn't be f'd carrying it. Makes an alpine style attempt on Everest and lamblasts others - then uses oxygen that another team had carried-up and stored for themselves when his partner gets sick. And cheats on his wife, when she was essentially paying all the bills so he could 'afford' to live and climb in Chamonix for years.

Funny guy - maybe? Class act nice guy? - I've never met him, informed only by what he has written about himself (with a different slight).

He ought not be an ethical voice for extreme modern alpinism - because he never lived by it.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jan 29, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
I didn't know him well, but did run into him a few times in the 90s when he was at the height of his climbing fame. He was modest, humble, and friendly. And since I had nothing to offer him in terms of career boost or fame, there was no need for him to fake any of that. It just seemed to be how he was.

Maybe some of you guys who are clawing at him ought to think about just how well you really know him.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 29, 2013 - 11:53pm PT
I wish MT would join this forum and rant at us in person.

That would be AWESOME.


It would be like two Donninis. Or like having Rokjox back only better.






He's very good at marketing too: http://gymjones.com
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 29, 2013 - 11:54pm PT
Nah he'd be better off sticking to alpinism.. This place is REALLY dangerous.
RDB

Social climber
wa
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2013 - 12:03am PT
Burn it down and salt the earth behind you...
I like the syle.
WBraun

climber
Jan 30, 2013 - 12:14am PT
Hey you guys....

Tell Mark Twight to come on this forum and talk some sh!t instead of being a tweety bird on twitter.

WTF is this twitter bullsh!t anyways?

Go ahead man .... tell him to come here and kick some ass ......
WBraun

climber
Jan 30, 2013 - 12:17am PT
have nothing better to do and have minds the size of walnuts


LOL you sound as bad as I do

hahahaha ......
RDB

Social climber
wa
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2013 - 12:26am PT
"diamox kicks ass"

Ya, no bias there. Glad I could piss in your cereal bowl this morning.
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Jan 30, 2013 - 12:35am PT
maybe he has done some note worthy climbs, and is modest about them

first statement is more or less valid; second is a joke
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 30, 2013 - 01:19am PT
Say ... Anybody here on the forum by chance have an opinion on Mark Twight? haha.
Thanks for the link Dane.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Jan 30, 2013 - 01:43am PT
Juat eat a dick already and STFU

Go lick a decomposed vagina and stop telling us what to fkin do mofukka! cuz sht u do aint nottin!

lol


jk
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Jan 30, 2013 - 01:59am PT
" Mix one high school diploma with an undergrad degree and a college sweet-heart. With a whisk (or a whip) blend two cars, a poorly built house in a cul de sac, and 50 hours a week working for a board that doesn't give a sh#t about you.
Reproduce once. Then again. Place all ingredients in a rut, or a grave. One is a bit longer than the other. Bake thoroughly until the resulting life is set. Rigid. With no way out. Serve and enjoy. But there is a way out. Live the lifestyle instead of paying lip service to the life style. Live with commitment. With emotional content. Give up this renaissance man, dilettante bullshit of doing a lot of different things( and none of them very well by real standards). Get to the guts of one thing; accept without casuistry, the responsibility of making a choice. When you live honestly, you can not separate your mind from your body, or your thoughts from your actions."
Twight. You call it what you want, but , for me, even though Twight admitted this was a bit over the top and purposely so, therein can be found a grain of truth. Twitching with Twight. it's about climbing, but it's about life more importantly.
TY
cowpoke

climber
Jan 30, 2013 - 08:53am PT
I find myself conflicted about the arguments (ideas proposed in this thread, if I am reading them correctly) that center on the notion that whether something is cheating or not depends on how difficult it would be to accomplish the feat without the "cheating."

On the one hand, the increased danger and difficulty of not using oxygen (and, in turn, the fact that going without oxygen means only the truly exceptional humans will ever get to the top of the highest peaks) seems, at best, irrelevant to whether it should be considered cheating. And, at worst, it may be central to the point of why it is cheating.

On the other hand, if we can't use oxygen to explore extreme environments, then do we have to reconsider deep ocean and space exploration and wonder: did we get to the moon by fair means? That seems silly. [But, arguably a non sequitur, because the tops of our high peaks are, for some, attainable without oxygen.]

Just rambling with the disclaimer: I am the epitome of the "arm chair quarterback" on this issue, having absolutely zero experience at altitude and, therefore, commenting on something I can't possibly be trusted to judge with any authority of experience.

Moreover, I form my opinion of the author's writing and argument based only on what appears in the essay -- I don't know him, and even if I did, I would not have the moral authority (or experience) to judge him.

That said, my opinion of the essay is that it is well written and provocative (and timely), to which this thread attests. And, it does make me sad that places like Everest appear to be (from the arm chair) something like DisneyExtreme, and I'm biased toward any argument that might reduce impact on extreme places. Even though I will never go to any of the wildest parts of the universe, I want to imagine (in the John Lennon sense) that they are unspoiled.

I do hope the author sends it to a wider audience, although if (as some here have indicated) he is being hypocritical, then the power is lost...and I will hope that someone with the moral authority to make the case will pick up the baton.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:01am PT
Cowpoke: from my armchair, I'd have to say that was pretty well said.
How hard is it to get EPO in this country? You know, for recreational purposes. How expensive?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:27am PT
Cowpoke...using oxygen to explore the oceans and deep space is one thing and using oxygen to summit a 8000 meter peak quite another.
1) The oceans and deep space cannot be explored without oxygen, while it is demonstrated every year that, with proper preparation, 8000 meter summits are accessible without it's use.

2) Exploring the bottom of the oceans and deep space are benificial to everyone in that they increase our scientific knowledge.

Climbing an 8000 meter peak benefits only the person who does it and has not the slightest impact on increasing the body of knowledge about the World/Universe around us.

It is PRECISELY because climbing to the summit is of no use to anyone but the person who does it that the MEANS in which it is done becomes that much more important. It's just a game after all.

If, by climbing a peak, one could find a cure for cancer on top, ANY means to get there
would be appropriate.

As climbing progresses vis a vis improved equipment, technique, training, knowledge etc. .....climbers should embrace the advances to summit peaks in better style.

Those that use every prop available....including fixed ropes to the summit, are dilettantes and not true climbers. A logical extension is that routes will become more prepared and more comfortized to accomodate more and more climbers that have the time and MONEY but not the skill and preparation such peaks should require.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:28am PT
How many here complain about the hordes of tourists climbing Half Dome?
That's the same thing that Twight complains about in describing the "noobs" on the west butt of Denali
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:39am PT
Those that use every prop available....including fixed ropes to the summit, are dilettantes and not true climbers. A logical extension is that routes will become more prepared and more comfortized to accomodate more and more climbers that have the time and MONEY but not the skill and preparation such peaks should require.

Now that specific point Donini, inasmuch as it also addresses the use of supplemental oxygen is very clear and quite obvious to most of us who play the game for real.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:42am PT
On the other hand, if we can't use oxygen to explore extreme environments, then do we have to reconsider deep ocean and space exploration and wonder: did we get to the moon by fair means? That seems silly. [But, arguably a non sequitur, because the tops of our high peaks are, for some, attainable without oxygen.]

100 people+ (on a summit day), with another 200+ servants (Sherpas/guides) of theirs, ascending a rope with a jumar is not what I would call exploring. As was said in the article, when you claim the summit of Everest you claim a certain level of fitness/accomplishment, which could be seen as unhuman to those that climb. GREAT athletes of today can't even find out if they could climb Everest without O2 or how fast due to huge summit lines. I do understand that everyone has their right to be there, people are making a lot of money on it etc etc, but it is very sad. (just my opinion)

PS: For example, when I did Mt. Denali (one year after I started hiking/mountaineering) we needed a replacement for one of our team members who dropped out. There was a guy who had done the 5th highest peak (8000+ M) in the world who was recommended to us. "WOW he wants to go with US? REALLY? Seems overqualified for our team!" Well, he couldn't carry his share of the group gear, and still was slow as sh#t on the days we moved camp.
//"How were you able to do Cho Oyu?"
"-We had Sherpas who carried our gear, I only carried my daypack."//
This guy wanted to be roped up with us on the summit day. He had all his 8000M peak gear etc. My partner and I were afraid of getting frostbite if we go that slow, so we formed own 2 person team and he went with another guy from our team. He ended up getting frost bite, even in the 8000M outfit/boots/with mitts on from the start. He claimed he summited. I dunno, he didn't have any pictures on the summit ridge.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:42am PT
Quite obvious to you Tarbuster, but doesn't seem to be so obvious to many posting here.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:45am PT
Probably so. We have a broad readership nowadays.
Perhaps I should recant my approval of the earlier portions of his post and what it seemed to indicate, but where he went with it in the latter half, I more or less agree with.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:47am PT
How many here complain about the hordes of tourists climbing Half Dome?
That's the same thing that Twight complains about in describing the "noobs" on the west butt of Denali

Not at all true. Half Dome is not Denali. Read my story about the guy in our team. Guided expeditions have 4 of these usually tied to a guide. People that do not put in work to belong there you know? Those that could take a fall descending a 40 degree slope after an 18 hour day (even though for any reasonably fit climber round trip should not take more than 11-12 hours, counting staying on top for a long time taking pictures and all).

Noobs on Denali put others at MUCH MORE serious danger than noobs on half dome. Weather changes are not really extreme in Sierra neither, most of the time.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:52am PT
Simple..Put those who want to visit the top on a helicopter and give an Everest tour. Pre req is a trek to base camp with sherpa/guide support (who will get paid). And let the climbers climb the peak without O2/sherpas/fixed ropes. I wonder how many summits Everest will get than hahaha. Probably 6 in 10 years or something ridiculous.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:54am PT
Anybody who climbs Denali by a "trade route" should be cognizant of the zoo he/she is entering. Unfortunately, the precious few who climb via an interesting route need to deal with the maddening hordes on the descent.
A proposition....how about all of the wonderful, usually much more technical, mountains surrounding the Pig? Not the highest peaks in NA but much more satisfying from a real climbers point of view.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:58am PT
Jim: You're asking a lot from people who probably just don't have the capacity to get it. Not that we shouldn't try. They are trophy hunters.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:58am PT
The comparison of hormone therapy and epo doping in professional sport with the use of bottled oxygen and diamox in mountaineeringis completely ridiculous.

Here is a little primer for the former:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/features/doping-for-gold/the-dangers-of-doping/56/

The health implications and ethical implications are serious issues best reflected by this statement from the above linked artivle:

The mentality of winning at any cost still persists today, according to Dr. Wadler. “Athletes live in a world of invincibility and denial. They’ll hear me say it’s dangerous, but their risk-reward ratio is so distorted that they disregard the risk even if it means shortening their life.”


There is no doubt that similar ethical transgressions could take place in the wonderful world of climbing but the cultural imperatives of "winning the race" are not in the same league of psychosis as professional sport. The potential material reward is squat and generally limited to bragging rights around a water cooler or getting your name in some stupid magazine article. I bet that there are some climbers out there that dope but you would have to be a complete moron to do it considering the cost / benefit / risk shakedown.

O's and Diamox don't even register a a health risk (quite the opposite) and the ethical quibbles that some people seem to have is centered around the complainers hang ups of how they think everyone should climb mountains. Twight is well known for his endless body nazi obsession with some sort of puritan stick- your- neck- in- a- noose style so its no surprise coming from him that he thinks we should all risk Pulmonary and cerebral oedema or brain damage for some neistche inspired mythology that he and his friends groove on.

There are smarter ways for a dishonest climber to commit fraud, and occasionally it actually happens. Sometimes they get caught and slaughtered ruthlessly but even if they don't people like that go off to more lucrative fields before long anyway.

I think this sneering down at the idiots on Rainer or Everest for using O2 or diamox is just a bit over the top. Ifv you don't like how they climb then go do your own climbing. Its the mess they leave (if they do) that is the only real ethical transgression and as someone else noted already, we're all guilty of that at some point.

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 30, 2013 - 12:02pm PT
The comparison of hormone therapy and epo doping in professional sport with the use of bottled oxygen and diamox in mountaineeringis completely ridiculous.

It was a non sequitur. I didn't ask the question to suggest a correlation.
Thanks for the link!
cowpoke

climber
Jan 30, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
donini, I am in complete agreement with you. Indeed, your point was precisely why, after posing the deep ocean and going to the moon question, I included the caveat (and end the argumentation portion of my post with): "But, arguably a non sequitur, because the tops of our high peaks are, for some, attainable without oxygen."

In other words, I am saying: comparing climbing mountains with going to the moon is not only silly because of the "fair means" issue, but because climbing mountains is NOT like deep ocean exploring or going to the moon, precisely because it CAN be done without oxygen. [caps not because I'm yelling -- I'm definitely still playing the humble card in this discussion -- but so that I'm not misread.]

Sorry that got lost in the mix, but I was floating alongside the types of arguments that occurred to me in a rather stream of consciousness manner.

Glad you appreciated where I landed, Tarbuster. And, so very, very glad to see you around these parts again.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 30, 2013 - 12:15pm PT
Bruce wrote:
I think this sneering down at the idiots on Rainer or Everest for using O2 or diamox is just a bit over the top. Ifv you don't like how they climb then go do your own climbing.

This was perhaps what I was empathizing with in cowpoke's post.

Yet, I would have to push the other way a bit on my quote of your words with Vitaliy's point:

Noobs on Denali put others at MUCH MORE serious danger than noobs on half dome.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Jan 30, 2013 - 12:18pm PT
Anybody who climbs Denali by a "trade route" should be cognizant of the zoo he/she is entering.

Yes, they should be, but probably don't care, because it's on their bucket list.

It's like in the Sierra. Everybody wants to climb Whitney. Yet, there are so many better climbs on many other peaks
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 30, 2013 - 12:22pm PT
Quite obvious to you Tarbuster, but doesn't seem to be so obvious to many posting here.

It really does seem pretty basic.

To climb Everest Naked, solo alpine style without oxygen during the monsoon via the South Pillar after having been raised by Yeti's with no knowledge of human technologies or climbing history would be the greatest challenge and therefore the most impressive.

To take a pressurized tram while eating steaks to the top would be the least impressive.

Somewhere along that line various folks arbitrarily insert the word "cheating"


FARK!!! I can't beleive I'm getting into another 02 debate after decades of em.

-------


Regarding n00bs on Denali. I suppose at some basic level they create a bit of risk to others. I can't say I ever considered them a risk to me. I would help a person out on Denali although I'd be pissed off about having to stop what I was doing cause they screwed up, I've done a few rescues on other climbs. I NEVER felt compelled to take any higher risk during a rescue than I have climbing. Infact I'm inclined to take less due to concerns about the rest of the team/teams.

This seems different than on Everest where bottle necking is a significant issue. It's not an issue on Denali for any competant mountaineer.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 30, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
The twight attitude is completely to do with style. He thinks the high summits should be the sole preserve of the Bushido warriors. It is complete elitist clap trap. I don't wish to deny him his ability to go practice his "style" himself but there are tons of places to do it. Fact is Everest and Rainer, like it or not, is where the low brow mob can practice their own little bit of Bushido. Its fun for us superior types to laugh at them over a beer but the second you start to despise them in all seriousness you better go take a good hard look in the mirror.

I'm not saying all this stuff isn't worth talking about and the dumbing down or loss of adventure isn't an issue. It just needs some perspective. I just heard that The Scott route on Nuptse is being considered for getting fixed top to bottom for guiding. Maybe considering the location its an ok idea but think of the implications for all the other routes on Nuptse and at what point do you say enough is enough with the via ferratas?

Hopefully this is what Twight is really driving at.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Jan 30, 2013 - 12:29pm PT


A proposition....how about all of the wonderful, usually much more technical, mountains surrounding the Pig?

For that you need to develop attraction to climbing a lot of mountains in general. Personally, I climbed Denali a year after I started climbing/hiking/mountaineering. Reason why I got into it in the first place was because I watched Everest Beyond the limit (LOL) and thought climbing 7 summits was hardest thing ever. Maybe it is, for people who climb only a few peaks a year. In my first year I have done probably 35+ mountains above 13K (climbed Rainier, Whitney in winter, did a few 5th class ridge climbs in winter with forced bivies, and did a few other 5th class climbs here). By the time I went to Denali I wanted to do the west rib and w.buttress was an acclimation. But conditions on NE fork were terrible that year, so was the weather and we didn’t do it. There are a lot of people that go there to do Cassin and end up only on west buttress, that’s the risk.

So I think majority go there because it is a huge challenge to them to climb the highest peak in N. America, for a non climber. It is a different question if a good chunk of those people belong there. But than, do some of the top of the line alpinists belong on big faces they dunno if they can climb? If you put together a statistic, I bet a lot more alpinists die/require rescues compared to hikers on Denali etc. In a way seems like both are challenging themselves and jumping a bit over their head…Climbing is great because it is not organized and no one can really tell you what you should do (at least we can bullshit about it on the internet, thank god). My first ever climb, was up Mt. Shasta without a sleeping pad, my high school back pack with a strapped borrowed not rated sleeping bag, no ice axe/crampons, running shoes, and a ski pole. Did I belong there? NO. Did I know any better? NO. Did I have a fun doing it? It was one of the most epic things I have done at that point in my life! So I guess a lot of those people in the unprepared crowds just don’t know any better and have not developed the desire to climb as much as some of the people who dedicate their whole life to it. Even as trophy hunters I bet they are having time of their life out there.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Jan 30, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
Fact is Everest and Rainer, like it or not, is where the low brow mob can practice their own little bit of Bushido. Its fun for us superior types to laugh at them over a beer but the second you start to despise them in all seriousness you better go take a good hard look in the mirror.

Great point Bruce.

When you do a 20hour round trip summit day (from 17K) on Denali you are obviously giving yourself a HUGE challenge!
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Jan 30, 2013 - 12:55pm PT

Its fun for us superior types to laugh at them over a beer but the second you start to despise them in all seriousness you better go take a good hard look in the mirror.

Hopefully this is what Twight is really driving at.

Bruce, I think you hit the nail on the head
Dolomite

climber
Anchorage
Jan 30, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
I think climbski2 best nailed it way upthread: "Do what you like, say what you did." It ain't cheating if everyone knows the rules you played by."

Or, probably even better: why tell anyone what you did? (not that I don't!)
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 30, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
Everest stands out in the climbing world as being a totally bullshit thing to do. If I learn someone has climbed Everest but few other alpine peaks, I think "gumby." On the other hand, someone taking on a moderate peak like Rainier, but not being guided, is a climber. As to O2, I'm still waiting for the North Face to design a spacesuit that solves all the oxygen and temperature issues for me.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 30, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
Everest stands out in the climbing world as being a totally bullshit thing to do.

Somewhat, but not entirely. There is always the west ridge. So far that seems to be quite under populated. South face too but watch out for flying O2 bottles and bodies!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 30, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
Kind of OT, but I just re-read Bonningtons book on the SW Face, done with the Whillans boxes siege style (Scott, Haston etc.) Has that been done Alpine style?
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Jan 30, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
Whillans boxes siege style (Scott, Haston etc.)

Siege style yes. But getting the to top as the sun was setting and getting ready to hunker down for the night added adventure points.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 30, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
Funny how the "truth" can wear different clothes. A persons perspective is paramount in determining what they perceive as the truth. The old adage...."there are two sides to every story," comes into play.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 30, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
Again, as with my EPO querry, my question about the SW face is a non sequitur. Just figured someone here might know?
nah000

Mountain climber
canuckistan
Jan 30, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
Mft: the man, the myth, and the self-righteous self-promoter.

he's put out some good information for sure. extreme alpinism when it came out was very influential to me personally. some of his writing where he lays bare his own emotional experiences are very revealing and powerful.

and as a human he's likely a decent guy: i haven't seen a bunch of negativity coming from those who've climbed with him.

that said, i personally find that the self-righteousness and self-promotion found in his writing quickly gets tiresome.

just to pick apart this latest bit of writing. it's titled "What The Cheaters Have Done To Us?".

well, the answer to this question with regards to high altitude "cheaters" is very simple: they've done nothing to us.

the logical fallacy that he uses is to equate high altitude climbing where people are not hiding that they use oxygen, diamox, with lieing on resumes, "amateur athletes lieing about accomplishments", etc. and etc.

just because he has personally decided that for him to climb with o's is not his cup of tea, doesn't make it cheating. dictionary defines cheating as "acting dishonestly or unfairly". if you're not lieing about what you've done and if you're not in an endeavour with agreed upon rules you have by definition not cheated. and thank jebus climbing still has some anarchy.

in regards to the self-promotion, it's pretty interesting that he basically wrote his own wiki page [thanks to orangesporanges for pointing this out]. and pretty interesting that his wiki page claims he "ushered in the single-push climbing movement." hmmm.... i guess that must mean that the climbs profit, lafaille, loretan and troillet [to name but a few] did in the 80's were just extended bad dreams.

regardless of all this, he's often an entertaining writer. and with the above said, i still have a lot of appreciation for a good part of the information and introspective writing he's put out there.

but the bullshit is still bullsh#t even if it's mostly due to hyperbole.
wstmrnclmr

Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
Jan 30, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
Cowpoke dead on. Goes back to what Paul started up thread about how the challenge of the game changes due to knowledge and equipment over time. Free diving like the Australian guy pushing the limits without fins or lead weights. Seems like the challenges comes full circle, using knowledge and equipment to "cheat" what the human body is capable of but then using what is gained to go back to a more human way. Honnold and Messner showing us how. Learned on gear and knowledge gained from previous history, then stripping it down to where cheating can't enter. Blowing minds on trade routes climbed by the many using what most of us use to "cheat" our way up (to take from Bruce, because we're all cheating anyway aren't we?) and turning them into a thing of beauty all over again. I think everyone here agrees that what Norgay and Hillary achieved with siege and O2 wasn't cheating and that Messner couldn't do what he did without what came before. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsFeN_6xPsM Ironically, the things we use to "cheat" (hang dogging, equipment etc.) end up being the thing that frees us.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 30, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
Roy, you were one of the people to proudly usher in rap bolting in JT, BITD, laughing arrogantly at those of us who tried to preserve the resource at the time. You made fun of me for caring so much about the SFHD being rap bolted, why the bleeding heart for Everest?

Why, because I’m just a dick Cozzy!
I’m not so invested in these arguments.

[Edit] It is just a discussion. Taking a shot at my trad climbing cred is unnecessary.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 30, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
Okay, I just watched this dude Garrett McNamara ride a humongous wave off of Portugal. Dude has cajones.

But, would some people consider the use of a jet ski to tow a surfer out or the use of a pony bottle in case of wiping out as cheating?


I suppose it is all in one's perspective. In the 1970s I just use to surf tiny stuff in Monterey Bay and Santa Cruz.

Would I use a jet ski and pony bottle if I tackled a 90 foot wave? Damn right, I want to live.


And what about the guy on the jet ski, he must have had some ride too.

EDIT

watched the interview with ABC/NBC/? whatever. McNamara says he wasn't scared just a rush. And he works with autistic kids teaching them how to surf. Coolaboola.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Jan 30, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
Just because some have climbed at 8000 meters peaks without O2 proves nothing, beyond the fact that these few are risking severe brain damage and probably would be the first to grab for a bottle if they started having problems. Jim these studs are proving nothing but the wiliness to ruin their brains, and disregard their lives, in a selfish pursuit, with no greater value than self. To use this suicidal behavior as an example that the world should follow, is nothing short of absurd.

Same could be said about Southern Belle for example, Coz.

Just because some have climbed it with X amount of bolts does not mean others have to. They are risking severe body damage/death by attempting it (and some did break their limbs trying), and probably would be the first to grab a drill (if they could) when they get off route.

Coz, craggers prove nothing by climbing runout routes but their willingness to put their life at risk, in a selfish pursuit, with no greater value than self. To use this suicidal behavior as an example that the world should follow, is nothing short of absurd.

: )
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 30, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
Those that use every prop available....including fixed ropes to the summit, are dilettantes and not true climbers. A logical extension is that routes will become more prepared and more comfortized to accomodate more and more climbers that have the time and MONEY but not the skill and preparation such peaks should require.

Wow, Jim. Thanks for the heads up on what the future holds. So I can look forward to someday climbing the Cassin Ridge, Central Pillar of Freney, Cerro Torre and Everest VIA FERATTA. Coolaboola. Sign me up. I just have to find the money. ;-)

But I still have to shed a few pounds. Few? What an understatement.

Basically I am a coward, which is why I could never get past leading 11a/b or alpine and ice climbing in the Sierra (and Cascades - how many of you can say you were on the 'old' summit of Mt St Helens? and in high school my proudest 'send' was the Price Glacier on Shuksan), and a couple of Mexican volcanoes, but I do believe doing things in style, but again, what is the perspective of what style is?

Anyway, I have never pushed my limits because I like life, a nice hotel and a good dinner. Just can't afford the latter two.

I still have my dreams. Ama Dablam and Cho Oyu, shouldn't need oxygen, and oh yes, I have wet dreams about the Cassin Ridge. Pumori and Taweche too.

Some of the posters on this thread I envy, because, when I should have been concentrating on my climbing, I had the silly dream of becoming a football pro in Europe - at 26. Whereas some of you have gone out and pushed the limits. But I always have to remind myself... Envy is one of the seven deadly sins.

Would I use oxygen on Everest? I'd certainly would take it along, make sure the tank came back down for the dump called Khumbu Glacier, and above all, do a route, not trade, with real climbers.


EDIT

Actually my proudest send in high school (16), with my HS climbing buddy Steve Fish, was North Palisade via U-Notch after Polemonium Peak via V-Notch. But Shuksan sure was nice for a 16-year-old.

Now I am just waiting for the Via Feratta for Ama Dablam, Walker Spur and Half Dome (oops, it's already there). Okay, I'll settle for a via Feratta of HDNF, considering Snake Dike is the only thing I have done on that heap pile of... beautiful granite. (Watched a total full moon lunar eclipse after the climb on that ton of rock, party and all with other climbers).

But unless you have climbed on Mt Diablo, none of you people have anything on me. And I didn't need oxygen, but that sandstone is shitty, you need props like some tequilla and weed.

Good and safe climbing.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 30, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
Thanks Coz,
I'm not back for long, this is physically painful.
I'm not chickening out either; though I know you are half joking, I just don't have that strong an opinion on the matter.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Jan 30, 2013 - 03:36pm PT
Couldn't agree more, if you read my story in Largo's last book, Yosemite Climbers or some such, I express the madness behind this mind set.

Basically that's what every thread about oxygen, Everest, people on Half Dome etc etc comes down to.

'Climbing is anarchy.' :)




....but we still can talk sh#t on the internetz!


*exits room, time to work*

PS: Would love to read about what you wrote in that book. Sounds interesting. There are some climbs that are very impressive for the era, and that was one of them IMO.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 30, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
If a couple dozen people can free climb the nose, out of tens of thousands that aided it, does this make the Nose a free route now? We're all supposed to go up there and spend months hangdoging the 5.13 pitches? This is what the Nose is all about now?

At the other end of the spectrum, should Everest have thousands of meters of fixed lines, fixed ladders, with huge crowds of gumbies getting guided up? If we make the routes accessible to everyone, then what you get is the half dome cables route.

I guess my perspective would be selfish - keep the gumbies from overcrowding the route, but don't make me risk my life to do it in your style, that's too extreme for me. That's not really a middle ground though, is it.

Could clarify all this by making hard and fast rules. No O2. No haulbags - climb it in a day or get the hell off the Nose. Seems like a bad idea to me. I'd say, whatever most *climbers* can do (not guided tourists), or are trying to do, is the accepted way to do the route. Plus the ethic of minimizing fixed gear whenever possible is something that will keep the sport from drifting into mediocrity.
wstmrnclmr

Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
Jan 30, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
Patrick Sawyer...Exactly! But the use of Jet Ski's ironically has led to more and more big wave riders going back to trying to paddle into bigger waves. Much like hang dogging allowed people to experience and gain more knowledge of what is physically possible, the Jet Ski has allowed surfers to experience what it's like to ride monsters and now they have the experience to go back and try to paddle in, knowing what to expect.

I think, to go back to the OP, is to ask "What is Cheating"? Climbing (surfing, diving, flying etc.) are NOT innately human. We are not lizards. We use technology to allow ourselves to experience what we otherwise are not capable of. Hopefully, we use technology (a la Honnold, Messner) to get us closer to what we are naturally capable of but if we use any form of technology to go where we couldn't otherwise are we not "cheating" and therefore are not ALL of us cheating? And if not, does being "honest" preclude us from being cheaters? Did Twight's example of the man climbing Everest using siege tactics and O2 think he was a cheater? Would Coz think so if he climbed Everest using O2?

When game changers like Honnold and Messner change the game and that change is accepted by the players at large, is not anything short of that style, under Twight's argument, "cheating? Honnold said in his interview that climbing that route on the Sentinel wasn't hard and that he could down climb it if he had to. So now if I climb the same route using equipment and techniques used by 99.9 percent of the community, am I cheating? What is cheating/
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 30, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
So now if I climb the same route using equipment and techniques used by 99.9 percent of the community, am I cheating? What is cheating?


Cheating is breaking rules you agreed to compete by. Or lying about how you did something.

The rules themselves are arbitrary and up to the participants.

In climbing we compete mainly or usually with ourselves. Although this thread does show there is certainly a competitive group nature to the sport in various degree's and individuals. Thus why being honest about what you did helps each person define where they measure up .. to whatever degree that matters to them or others.

Some folks do cheat themselves. I have and I suppose most of us have at times. Living up to your own dreams and expectations is serious business.

What cheating yourself is?? well that's up to you to figure out.

I'm pretty damn sure it isn't about letting other folks force their own rules for you.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 30, 2013 - 04:27pm PT
I have cheated. On school exams (not much though), my CV/resume has one or two embellishments (truths, but still embellishments), and I have pulled on gear.

"Did you lead that free?"

"Sort of, but I pulled on some gear. But hey, I am not French, I just lived and climbed there."

wstmrnclmr

The only surfer I have met that was in the water as the same time as a great white (he presumes, but he is definite it was a shark of some sort, and big), was when he was in Bodega Bay. He said the he was scared shitless and added that he tried his best to paddle as fast and quietly to shore. He lived to tell the tale.

And I get your point about the big wave guys using ski jets to tow them.

What is cheating? Is it truth? Semantics? Bullsh#t?
wstmrnclmr

Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
Jan 30, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
climbski2...dead on! You nailed it out of the box way back when you said "honesty is the only real rule" and now refined it to only being honest to one's self. Yep. Best I can do anyway.

And Patrick...Ya man! I have been on the seen for two shark attacks to friends. Same area. Objective danger keeps us all honest and certainly trivializes these debates....
bjj

climber
beyond the sun
Jan 30, 2013 - 05:02pm PT
I don't know much about Mark the person, only that his Gym Jones training center is one of the most sought after "private" gyms around. When I lived in SLC, a number of the top guys I did Brazilian Jiu Jitsu with got the invite to go there for their strength and conditioning needs. I know several of the faces in his gallery very well, and they all went on to new levels of greatness in that sport as a result.

I have trained with his wife several times, and even taught her a thing or two when she came to the class I was instructing once long ago (I was an assistant instructor).

If I was still living there, I would for sure seek out an invite to train there (to help my climbing, not my BJJ as I had to retire from that sport due to injury).

I met him a couple of times, but never let on that I was a climber who was pretty familiar with his resume. Always seemed decent enough. But, there's the public persona people present to strangers, and the "real" person beneath. Still, I tend to withold judgment without any personal, first hand experience.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 30, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
Coz,

This is almost an off-line discussion between you and me at this point. I will say that the way you enter these conversations is sometimes a bit like a bull in a china shop and I'm not always all that clear where you're coming from with the stuff you bring. This can make it difficult for me to respond, sorry.

For the sake of communication, clarity, and fun, I'll try to address or clarify what I think you were responding to in what Jim, others, and I have said.

I don't get my panties all in a bunch over bottled oxygen per se. You are correct; I've never been even close to needing it. I don’t play the big mountain game. One of the broader issues which we are discussing as I see it, besides what Mark Twight's ego incites in people (ie. how he gets their hackles up in general, which is a separate or sub topic really), is the concept of the masses losing sight, or perhaps never understanding to begin with, what a minimalist approach is all about and why seasoned alpinist's adhere to it. And why everyone who plays should at least understand it and try to incorporate some of it in their approach to their pursuits: to even go so far as to limit or augment their goals accordingly.

That a very select portion of the mountains has become cluttered with neophytes looking to bag trophies with any means at their disposal is what I think some of us are talking about. That it has an impact which is unsustainable and that it sometimes increases hazards through overcrowding is what I find patently obvious.

Chest beating over style in the matter involves a very broad spectrum. Exactly where O2 should come into play in that spectrum is something I wouldn't try to pin down, to champion or defend. Not enough/any experience with it.

Be well!
Thanks,
Roy
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 30, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
Off topic

And Patrick...Ya man! I have been on the seen for two shark attacks to friends. Same area. Objective danger keeps us all honest and certainly trivializes these debates....

When you say same area, do you mean Bodega Bay?

Doesn't matter if it is Bodega Bay, Bolinas Bay, Monterey Bay whatever, that stretch all the way up to the Eel River and down to San Luis Obispo is only 60-100 miles or so from the Farallones, one of the largest great white breeding grounds in the north Pacific.

And yet, not that many attacks over the years. People cheating death?

If so, that kind of cheating I can take.

I was always freaked surfing in Monterey Bay when even some seaweed would brush up against me. "What was that?"

EDIT

the word I always got was, do not surf near the mouths of rivers. They attract seals and sea lions looking for food/fish coming down the river, and of course these pinipeds are yummy for great whites. But, apparently, research (and I saw a video) shows that the orcas/killer whales love hanging around the Farallones because they have a taste for shark liver.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/wild/shark-attack-experiment-live/videos/killer-whale-vs-jaws/

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/wild/shark-attack-experiment-live/videos/how-whales-eat-sharks1/

And an adult orca can easily dispatch an adult great white.

Now back to cheating in climbing.

Sorry for the thread drift folks.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 30, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
Thread drift cleanses the palate!
wstmrnclmr

Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
Jan 30, 2013 - 05:43pm PT
Patrick...Could be thread drift and yet could be parallel discussion. The attacks were in the same area i.e. the so called "Red Triangle" which may also be much like the so called "death zone" at high altitude which one of the details (0two)in regards to cheating has centered on. One of the attacks was off Stinson Beach and the other at the mouth of Drakes Estero. Both men lived. It is analogues to the discussion in that a surfer difinitely is performing a very risky adventure in a very honest/good style way when entering the Red Triangle. Minimal gear and as dangerous these days as any objective danger in Mountaineering. Note that Scott Anderson, THE number 1 authority in IMO has tagged OVER 70!!! Great White's off the tip of Point Reyes (Pierce Point)alone! I always thought there might be like 10.....

Tar and Coz...Much like the counterpoint in great classical music, both your insights, though delivered differently, are of immense value to any discussion.
Hankster

Social climber
Golden, CO
Jan 30, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
coz, your hardcore alphadog style of communicating is hysterical!
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Jan 30, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
coz, your hardcore alphadog style of communicating is hysterical!

I bet he actually types
Sent from my I Phone.
!! lol



Sent from my I Phone typed by my slave.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jan 30, 2013 - 06:44pm PT
Okay, more thread drift, but then, the inherent dangers of messing with nature, be it mountains or sea.

We used to play with the (young adults and adolescents) sea lions at the Point Reyes (main) beach, just be careful of their teeth, sharper than a dogs, but they could be playful and friendly, just beware of a change in attitude. So no wonder the white pointers like cruising those waters. Yummy, a fat seal/sea lion, yeck a skinny human being (though in my case at present, I could be seen as a walrus).

Some years back, wasn't there a gal off the marina at Santa Barbara/San Luis Obispo ??? who was swiming with seals and suddenly they all then split the scene and she was nailed by a white pointer (as the Aussies call them).

Poor woman, but sort of a Darwin's award sort of thing, swimming in a black wet suit with seals in shark territory, perhaps not the best idea. She did not cheat death, apparently.

Again, I have to ask, what is cheating? If I lead a climb but for whatever reason pulled on some gear, which I have before, I'd admit to it. And hope that I can go back and lead the climb free. I am not ashamed to admit I pulled on gear at times. Cheating? Again, what is the definition?

Now if I said I led those climbs totally fee, I'd be lying to myself. (Wouldn't be the first time. I lie to myself all the time, mostly about winning the lottery)
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Jan 30, 2013 - 07:10pm PT
Coz, as one of the members here I appreciate your opinions/humor. And I hope you (and others) continue stating your opinions, even if they make you appear like a dick to some. One has opinions and there is nothing wrong with honesty. It would be a lame forum if you had a bunch of people who did not want to express what they believe in.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 30, 2013 - 07:17pm PT
Well Coz,
Nice to have a heart so pure. Your treatise, however, is open to debate. So you can't comment on climbing an 8000 meter peak without oxygen unless you have done it. Does that then mean you can't comment on Armstrong doping during the Tour de France unless you have done it?
Concerning comments on using O2 on 8000 meter peaks or soloing the SS. I have commented on both, as you well know, because you have called me out on both. While i don't think you need to have done those things to comment intelligently on them, i will point out that i have bonafides in both areas.
No Coz, i haven't done an 8000 meter peak w/o oxygen....in fact, i haven't done an 8000 meter peak period.....and by design. I much prefer the physical and mental challenges of peaks 7000 meters and below that pose extreme technical challenges. Trust me Coz, climbing difficult terrain at 7000 meters is every bit as hard as negotiating moderate snow slopes a thousand meters higher. I think that my alpine record speaks for itself, and, given that, i believe my comments regarding climbing in the mountains are as valid as any.
Additionally, i have many friends and aquaintances who have kicked steps to the top of 8000
meter peaks sans oxygen and the literature on such endeavors is voluminous.
Now to free soling the SS. I commented on it and you, predictably, called me out on it when i said it had become almost routine. My comment was based on my knowledge of events....the fact that i hadn't done it personally is in no way germaine to the validity of my comments. I climbed the SS in the Fall of 2011 with longtime friend Greg Crouch. During that ascent we were passed by TWO other climbers who were free soloing, one of them Dean Potter. Perhaps that experience had something to do with my comments. Also, i have free soloed throughout my climbing career and feel that i know something about the subject.
I don't shoot from the hip when i comment about climbing matters. My opinions are mine, and mine alone, and many may not agree with them. But Coz, to constantly shoot down my opinions by questioning my bonafides has me puzzled. I hardly know you and can't think of anything i have done to you. I respect your climbing ability and record but am not enamored by your name calling. How about a truce old boy
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 30, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
I will say that the way you enter these conversations is sometimes a bit like a bull in a china shop and I'm not always all that clear where you're coming from with the stuff you bring.


Watch out Tar, next thing you know he'll be calling you "tough guy" and "buddy." That's when you know you've stepped over the line.

HA HA!!! You guys are all awesome. My opinion swings back and forth like a pendulum, but then I always liked swings....WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 30, 2013 - 08:00pm PT
I'm trying like hell to make sense of what is going on with Twight's article.
And our responses to it!

Excerpt from Mark Twight’s article:

I could agree with the notion that it's a team sport on some levels, and that fixed ropes can have a place in some forms of climbing however the use of oxygen has no place, is cheating and overrules all other claim to achievement. Supplemental O2 is doping - without question. It is not a medical necessity, which is proven by many, many ascents of 8000m peaks without supplemental O2.

Then:

Why isn't supplemental oxygen viewed as doping? Some argue that it is a safety issue, that they do not want to take the risk of altitude illness, or frostbite.

As has been noted here by many of you, it's not doping because doping refers to a surreptitious activity. That's why it's cheating in the milieu of bicycling.

In rereading his text, I'm not sure why he let that slip. It's a mistake. Semantics? But the overall effect of using EPO or supplemental oxygen, yes oxygen, it has medical uses, but I can see where he would put these together in the same bucket. Essentially he's looking at them as crutches.

Then, where I see how he supports putting them in the same bucket, and somewhat understand his tact:

If O2 allows one to accomplish a task that he or she otherwise could not do or was not willing to do then O2 is a performance-enhancing drug and should be treated as such.

Then he states his concerns specifically:

Times have changed. Cheating is commonplace and doping is rampant, even at the lowest levels of sport.

Look, I've read through his piece several times now. I think he made some mistakes, such as forgetting that doping refers to a culture of lying. So technically supplemental oxygen doesn't really fit that. Then, he talks about cheating which is exactly what the doping reference really is about for most of us readers.

I think the thing needed to be edited better. And maybe he thinks in absolutes and never would have made any changes. But the thrust of what he is trying to say is that all that extra stuff you pump into your body gives you an edge, and he is calling having an edge cheating. Semantically, it's not cheating if you report it. Understood. Many of us here have echoed that.

I believe the spirit of what he is saying still comes through. It is this: even though people may report that they use any particular manner of aids, oxygen, fixed ropes, whatever ... activity in the mountains is not such a noble pursuit if everybody's completely discounting a minimalist credo - instead just filling up the goodie bag with aids of all kind as a matter of course. From the elites on down the line to the neophyte trophy collectors, He wants to see all of us do better. Better for ourselves, and better for others.

That they or we are not hiding whatever these extra aids might be isn't exactly the issue. For Twight it is that tactics are not moving in a progression which benefits from what has come before us. Essentially saying we're cheating ourselves as a culture when we, as leaders in the sport if you will, don't strive to inculcate the masses, and one another to some extent, with those concepts.

Holding an absolute hardline on oxygen or any of the various ways to make the body tick better really isn't the point. Although I know that's pretty much what he's saying. And maybe Donini is to: no oxygen ever. And of course those of us who've been around know that Twight can be a hard liner. Well, many of us will recoil from absolutes, but again, the spirit of the piece which Mark wrote is I believe, in the right place.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 30, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
Jim's been around the horn more than once.

You musta been sleeping under a rock Coz.....

Here's a little teaser:


1976 Torre Egger - First Ascent - with John Bragg, and Jay Wilson from the United States, by climbing first to the col between the Egger and Cerro Torre, the Col of Conquest, and then up the ridge to the peak. The ascent was hampered by bad weather and took from December 1975 to February 22, 1976 when the 3-person team summitted.
1978 North Ridge on Latok I, Karakorum Range, Pakistan. Attempt with Michael Kennedy, George Lowe and Jeff Lowe (climber) (all USA).
1991 Cobra Pillar on the east face of Mount Barrille, Ruth Gorge, Alaska Range, Alaska, USA (VI 5.10+ A3 WI5? 2300m) FA with Jack Tackle (USA), June 5–10, 1991.
1991 Viper Ridge, south spur of southeast ridge to ridge, Mount Foraker, Alaska Range, Alaska USA. FA with Jack Tackle (USA), June 11–17, 1991.
2000 Lightning Spur, south face Thunder Mountain, Alaska Range, Alaska USA. FA with John Bragg (USA).
orangesporanges

Social climber
Jan 30, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
I never claimed to be a roll model in climbing.

So who be thee role models these days?

And must one have climbed Everest before observing whether using oxygen, ladders and fixed ropes indeed lessens the challenging effects of the rarefied air on its' summit?

02 to the top of Everest is fine. So are fixed ropes and ladders that are cleaned-up. But using such is not the same as climbing the mountain in good elegant style - and you don't need to have climbed Everest to feel that.

And as for observing that the SS is now frequently soloed. You needn't have soloed the route to note the frequency with which it is now soloed. Opinion on the discussion does however, become more relevant if you have indeed lived a life or nine among the mountains in good elegant style.

I'd like to think that the likes of Bonatti, Scott, Messner, Kurtyka, Stump, Jello and even LEB all know a little (or more) of Jim Donini's adventures.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 30, 2013 - 08:09pm PT
Seriously Coz? The guy has so many badass lines in the AK range they could name it after him.. ok well maybe not quite. Eh his partner Jack tackle might have more, Hmm that homeless kid who lived on Denali and got his food for about the whole year from folks bailin? Jeez can't think of his name.. Apple... ahh Jeff Benowitz

Anyway

First ascents of prominent whole major peaks in Patagonia.

Stuff in China

Peru

Maybe only Beckey has done more stuff in more places...

hmmmm mebbe not

And certainly not at the technical level of Donini.

I don't like sounding like a fanboi but the reality is I've been one of Donini's fan's since I first started studying anything to do with climbing. It freaking rocks that he likes to post here and often has so much to say. Goes for Coz too actually. Jeez I sometimes should just shut up more and listen to the real badasses around here..

Dosn't mean I think using o2 is "cheating" however .. never used it but I wanted to raid the rescue cache on Denali and for some skiing..well I thought about it anyway..
RDB

Social climber
wa
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
"He wants to see all of us do better. Better for ourselves, and better for others."

bingo

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 30, 2013 - 08:23pm PT
Coz,
Go fetch me a beer and then come back and rub my feet, won't you darling?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 30, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
Use all of the supplemental oxygen you want, but I wouldn't be calling Jim "old" ... he might be sensitive to that fact!
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jan 30, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
twight's climbing was important. unfortunately, most folks know his writing or promotional stuff or bad taste in music. his work there is a lot less interesting. tony robbins meets skinny puppy.

this article isn't especially strong. the debate over oz is a bit like the debate over chalk. the main difference is that most of us can carry our own chalk rather than hiring 3rd world locals to drag it around for us at risk of life and limb.

i'd be surprised if some of the folks involved in the various unofficial timed events in the alps aren't blood doping. obvious easy thing to do, when one has a good staging area, and comparatively safe.

i really don't care about folks climbing at altitude using the various blood thinners from aspirin on up. that bit of the piece strikes me as really marginal. what about folks using pepto-bismol or rolaids to deal with the gi problems common on expeditions and at altitude? or just getting their shots? at some point it becomes ridiculous.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 30, 2013 - 09:50pm PT
Regardless the O2 rule.

The Omnibus and ST approved and adopted Climbers Code Of Conduct Page 1127 Paragraph 13 section 7-A clearly states the use of a supplemental Donini on any climbing ascent is considered out of bounds and disqualifies the validity of said ascent due to the use of way to much BADASS, Please see appendix chart 157a regarding the validity of Descents when using a Donini.
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Jan 30, 2013 - 10:40pm PT
O2 used to summit Everest is doping. Period. It is absolutely no different than the cyclist who dopes to achieve better performance. Is it cheating? It depends on the rules by which you play your game. The word "rules" might, for want of a better word, be substituted by the word style. I would think it better style to summit without O2. In our culture, style, or at least the appearance of style to the uninitiated, is something one can buy given the desire and requisite long green(especially when it comes to the big "E"). Thus the debate, however,I understand exactly what Twight is digging at.
"I think I know what your problem is......"
TY
cowpoke

climber
Jan 30, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
the debate over oz is a bit like the debate over chalk.

That argument evokes an interesting thought experiment. If we awoke tomorrow to a world void of chalk and with no means to carry O2 in a tank, would we see a greater percentage decrease in: (1) the number of ascents on 8000m peaks or (2) the number of jaw-dropping, cutting-edge rock climbs?

I gotta go with door number 1 on that one, but would be interested to know the predictions of those who have, in fact, played in both (or at least one) of those adventure lands.

PS the debate over oz was resolved by Dorothy (unless you are a fan of Wicked).
orangesporanges

Social climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:18am PT
O2 used to summit Everest is doping. Period. It is absolutely no different than the cyclist who dopes to achieve better performance. Is it cheating? It depends on the rules by which you play your game.

You are spot-on reasoned. O2 is doping, though not inherently cheating. It only becomes cheating if you fail to honestly disclose the extent to which you used supplemental oxygen during any period between leaving basecamp for the summit and your return.

I will note here that Twight's team had used O2 during Everest expeditions - something he has previously mentioned though failed to mention in his most recent discussion piece when he wrote: "And if the audience isn't well-informed enough to ask about the means the speaker lets the omission slide, allowing them to think better of him. A decade and more ago I cared deeply about the way we climbed more than whether we were successful."

Wonder if he used the likes of Diamox as well?

Be great if Twight also stated clearly whether he followed in the sweet posthole tracks of others. Comparing with his cycling, wonder what Twight thinks of fellow cyclists in a race breakaway who sit in the draught and don't take turns up the front, only to pull ahead at the sprint and never qualify credit to the others.

Using a ladder any time from the moment you left basecamp for the summit and during the descent is however always to be deemed cheating. With or without supplemental oxygen.

And never blame the weather if you don't get-up. Dynamic mountain conditions are central to the challenge. You're either strong enough, or YOU weren't.

Keep it real, and the 'rules' become easy to live a life by. Project that approach into other parts of life, and nobody worth knowing will ever judge you harshly if you happen to never end up climbing Everest.

Those clients from the Everest "Beyond the Limit" mock-umentary that have since self-promoted themselves as "Mountaineer".

The by-line ought read the simple truth - I use supplemental oxygen to get to and down from the summit. Used fixed ropes that others were paid money to fix up and down the route. I used ladders that others had fixed in place, though only to make it easier to move through the most technical sections along the selected route. I was accompanied by Sherpa Guides much of the way; deep down, I know they were central to what I was able to undertake.
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:36am PT
FAKT: few of twight's critics could have sherpa'd his O2 on Denali, much less the Big E

WORD
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:42am PT
Can we imagine any relative non-climber whose toted their bad selves using whatever means to the top of Everest, then having any success whatsoever trying to discuss the disclaimers with their complete non-climber workmates over the watercooler? All for the sake of honest reportage? Even with the best of intentions it would fall flat.

This taken in stride with the fact that we can't even decide/agree on it here?
Ha ha.

It's just so out of this world for the regular person to comprehend style and ethical prerogatives in rockclimbing nevermind the big mountains. And to them, they'd be right to tell their would-be work hero who's gotten to the top to forget all that disclaimer stuff because the experience is still so deep compared to walking around on the street, hailing a cab, riding a bike, hiking, drinking in bars, getting laid, changing diapers, or studying for an exam.

Not that that should dissuade us from the idea that aspirants need to be educated about these things. Or that these dialogues don't serve a purpose other than flapping our gums.

Cowpoke: I guess I'd go with oxygen being more critical than chalk, relative to their historical outcomes. Good one!

Climbski2: on the other hand, even a grade schooler would just nod up and down at this brilliant ditty which you laid out for us! They'd comprehend it in a flash! Ha ha.

The Omnibus and ST approved and adopted Climbers Code Of Conduct Page 1127 Paragraph 13 section 7-A clearly states the use of a supplemental Donini on any climbing ascent is considered out of bounds and disqualifies the validity of said ascent due to the use of way to much BADASS, Please see appendix chart 157a regarding the validity of Descents when using a Donini.
orangesporanges

Social climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:57am PT
FAKT: few of twight's critics could have sherpa'd his O2 on Denali, much less the Big E

I will happily carry down discarded gear that Twight has dumped on mountains because he was too weak to carry down (though he later sprayed about how strong they'd been on those routes).

There are other "critics" come advocates for mountain stewardship who would willingly do the same when next in the neighbourhood.

To note, MFT has been back to such areas in later years, and made no noteworthy attempt to redeem himself by retrieving the stuff he dumped. His mate Steve House should give him a kick in the butt, Steve followed-up his promise to attempt to retrieve gear he'd left on Makalu.
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:06am PT
I will happily carry down discarded gear that Twight has dumped on mountains because he was too weak to carry down (though he later sprayed about how strong they'd been on those routes).

I will pay you $500 for the Camalot Backes/House/Twight left on the Slovak. PM me when you have happily retrieved it.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:07am PT
Can of Worms.

edit:I deemed it unkind. Nosir. I would rather trend the other way.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:17am PT
Skully: go put your post back on my thread please!
No response too whacked, too short, or too deep. Werd.

[edit] okay dude, yer golden.
orangesporanges

Social climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:19am PT
I will pay you $500 for the Camalot Backes/House/Twight left on the Slovak. PM me when you have happily retrieved it.

U.S. dollars mean much-little these days. So I need to appreciate your motivations - the point you wish to make is....?
orangesporanges

Social climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:40am PT
What about using 02 scuba diving is that cheating?

Or how about using 02 period, perhaps Twight holds his breath?

02 is intrinsic to scuba diving. It would be cheating the truth to use it for Free Diving however. Though, it is unlikely that anyone would ever judge Twight unfairly if he never free dived.

Twight would be cheating the truth however if he proclaimed a standard and wanted recognition for his free diving ethics yet failed to 'in the same proverbial breath' mention the use of scuba air when things got difficult.

Ever told someone you climbed an 8,000 peak Coz? If so, were they impressed? And did you in the same breath tell them about whether you did or didn't use the ladders to bypass technical sections along the selected route?
RDB

Social climber
wa
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2013 - 03:17am PT
Gotta say, consistant tweaks at Twight here and else where on the Taco, and the personal attacks on Twight are some weak ass, lame, sh#t.

What the f*#k is wrong with you guys? You sound like a bunch of 12 year school girls not climbers. Ya ought to check that sh#t at the door unless you would actually do it to his face.

And we all know damn few of you would...being polite and all.

weak.....
orangesporanges

Social climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 03:56am PT
Ya ought to check that sh#t at the door unless you would actually do it to his face.

An offer was made. He declined.

Twight did gnar, no-doubt. But he's fair game when he spiels mightily about how weak others are for not disclosing how they did O2 on Everest while at the same time failing to mention how his crew was sucking O's when things got tough.

I put it to you that your own discourse is, in your own words "weak".

MFT didn't need to climb Everest with oxygen to know if that's not the right style for him. But he ought STFU with the self-promotion if he did use O's himself.

In all, O2 is not a big deal if one is truthful. 'Climving' using ladders though.....f'me. Dumping stuff with no intention to come back for it, well...what say you since you have a penchant for defining 'weak'?

And recall, you and MFT have invited attention to the guy's words and actions here.
RDB

Social climber
wa
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2013 - 04:59am PT
Sure it was....must have been the oranges.
Attacking the messenger only means you have lost the argument.

Some how you missed it was a short commentary on a specific subject not Twight's confession on Oprah. Roy got it, Coz got it and even Donini got it.

As I said...weak.
Degaine

climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 05:12am PT
donini wrote:
It is PRECISELY because climbing to the summit is of no use to anyone but the person who does it that the MEANS in which it is done becomes that much more important. It's just a game after all.

If, by climbing a peak, one could find a cure for cancer on top, ANY means to get there
would be appropriate.

As climbing progresses vis a vis improved equipment, technique, training, knowledge etc. .....climbers should embrace the advances to summit peaks in better style.

Nicely written as well as the entire post.

I am curious as to where you, personally, draw the line?

Twight's article and point of view are interesting, but some parts read a little to much like "my form of purity is the only form of purity".

You mention climbing style once one starts the actual climbing. Twight, however, talks about sherpas and porters. Why not take it a step further? Did he take a plane to the Himalaya/Alaska/etc.? Use some sort of motorized vehicle to reach a starting point?

As I mentioned earlier, take Twight's article to its logical end point, and Goran Kropp is the only person who has a "pure" ascent of Everest. Of course even he benefited from the equipment / infrastructure already available.

We all seem to know what IS and what IS NOT, both far-ends of the spectrum are clear, it's the gray area that everyone argues about, and often times the differences in one's approach are so subtle that the argument amounts to pissing on one another in an attempt to feel superior (not talking about you donini, getting general here) to the other. I find this especially true in Himalayan climbing (for example, what about using oxygen to sleep well, but not while you are actually doing the ascending of Everest?).

On a side note, donini, I have a few friends who take the same approach as you with regard to 7000 meter peaks; the want to climb technical new routes on often unclimbed peaks and not have to deal with the oxygen logistics, etc., that comes with 8000m endeavors.
Degaine

climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 05:16am PT
Tarbuster wrote:
That a very select portion of the mountains has become cluttered with neophytes looking to bag trophies with any means at their disposal is what I think some of us are talking about. That it has an impact which is unsustainable and that it sometimes increases hazards through overcrowding is what I find patently obvious.

Those neophytes would not be able to "bag these trophies" if there were not enablers (read guides and guiding outfits). Some of these guides are or have been individuals in the climbing community that many admire for their accomplishments and abilities.

I personally have no problem with guided groups and bringing a non-experienced climber to the summit of whatever peak, even Everest.

What I do have a problem with is the garbage left (feces, O2 bottles or otherwise). Kudos to people like Conrad Anker et al who have made efforts to clean up Everest.
WTF

climber
Jan 31, 2013 - 10:02am PT
Like paying some young kid to carry your sh#t to the captain and then carrying it down for you.

Anyway I like tw#t not Twight.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 31, 2013 - 10:52am PT
Dane - I think you 're being a bit diss-ingenuous with your criticism. It seems to me that MT is pretty much guilty of the same. I don't recall him ever calling me a homo lame ass to my face, only in print..... kind of like his critics here. One of the things that always puzzled me about him was how his friends and acquaintances always said "he's really a great guy - not at all like his writing!"

WTF? I'm sure he is but if so why present yourself otherwise in print? Fact is, he presents his ideas completely (presumably?) truthfully and I'm sure he is not such a shrinking violet that he dosn't expect some scathing (and well reasoned ) criticism in return.

So you know him obviously. Why exactly does he present himself as an elitist prick completely lacking in empathy, nuance and a reasonable grasp of ambiguity? We all get his drift with high ideals but you could pretty much say the same for the Taliban suicide bombers. We admire their commitment, but doubt their humanity.

I really enjoy much of his writing but some of it makes me either puke or die laughing. I like to think its all just a big marketing ruse and like his friends say he actually is a swell guy that lies in his own barf occasionally.

What say you? (2500 words minimum please. After all you started it and I think it deserves more than a few two sentence statements to get to the bottom of it)
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jan 31, 2013 - 11:39am PT
Like paying some young kid to carry your sh#t to the captain and then carrying it down for you.

That is true, I guess I'll go sit on the other side of the room with all my new, guided up Everest, buddies!
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 31, 2013 - 11:45am PT
Freakin lol.. see what I mean..

Not only are there almost no real rules.. most of the "rules" folks like to make up and impose on others are not about "purity" they are about making themselves sound better than someone else...

at least to themselves.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jan 31, 2013 - 11:52am PT
Interesting to read what the Crossfit community has to say about MT.

http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=42463

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 31, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
Is mary jane, coffee, and donuts a performance enhancing substance?

Dunno, I just call that "breakfast".

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
Gotta say, consistant tweaks at Twight here and else where on the Taco, and the personal attacks on Twight are some weak ass, lame, sh#t.

Like Twight ever learned to hold his tongue? Riiiiiiight.....
RDB

Social climber
wa
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
Bruce fair enough.

"So you know him obviously. Why exactly does he present himself as an elitist prick completely lacking in empathy, nuance and a reasonable grasp of ambiguity? We all get his drift with high ideals but you could pretty much say the same for the Taliban suicide bombers. We admire their commitment, but doubt their humanity.

I really enjoy much of his writing but some of it makes me either puke or die laughing. I like to think its all just a big marketing ruse and like his friends say he actually is a swell guy that lies in his own barf occasionally."

I don't know Mark well. And I hestitate to speak for him let alone about him. BWTF. Couple of observations. I knew of Mark long before I met him. Though he was an arrogant prick who had no f*#king clue what he was talking about most of the time and didn't care he was eating rats in some wet basement apartment in Seattle. We are both from the NW but there was little cross cultral exchange then or now between the east and west sides of the state.

But the kid could write...still can. I was even more annoyed when he started playing in my old stomping grounds and claiming big deeds. But had to tip my hat. They actually were pretty good deeds. May be not as good as he claimed IMO. But he was so annoying it was hard to see the real climbing. In retrospect they were really good climbs. And no way for me to see the real person even back not knowing him, between the reality and the writing. Hard enough now.

I actually met Mark later when I was out of climbing trying to make my business grow. He wrote about it several times in national publications and my business grew. I owe him for that. I also got to see him as a student and as a competitor in a very competitive environment. I didn't think he would flourish there. Grass eaters are quickly gone in that arena. And I really didn't think Mark fit in. Obviously he has. May be more than I. And I could hold my own there.

My take on his writing? Because it is so far from what any normal human being could actually be in person, is why it is so good.

"I really enjoy much of his writing but some of it makes me either puke or die laughing."

I'm generally on the puke side. But some of his stuff is really good, I think. His fast and light climbing book for one. This commentary for another.

Climbing? Hard to ignore his climbs in the Alps. I tend to dismiss things like that, the climbs. But soloing and soloing big alpine faces is another game entirely. Those that have done it know that. No BS tolerated there. I have done a couple. Mark has done a BIG bunch. What ever else he has done, Twight can actually climb.

Donini never hesitates to dig Mark about his rock climbing ability here. When Donini was climbing the first Valley 5.12s back in the early '70s, Twight was in still in grade school. When I did the second ascent and the first "speed" ascent of Slipstream in a short day Mark had yet to start climbing. Point is who gives a sh#t...we all can climb or could at one time. That either of them is still alive is their best accomplishment imo.

Point to all that is WTF are people giving Twight sh#t for? His style? Sure as hell shouldn't be his climbing. Ditching gear on the CZD? How many others have gone that deep in the mountains and pulled it off? (as in lived) Jello and Donini for sure. Grown ups and the kid would be my observation off hand. Both had years of serious alpinism behind them before Twight ever uncoiled a rope. That he was able to tag along at all early on with punk rock blaring from the head phones is pretty amazing if you think back on Jello's and Mark's comments of their own seperate realities. Different perspectives obviously and rightfully so. But not that many others from the US for sure that had played the game at that standard. Few even now.

We are talking 13 years since Twight has climbed anything. Put that into perspective.

Things have changed and much of my observations are from BITD on all of this, climbs, climbers and their accomplishmets. But hard to put it all into perspective until some time and distance has passed. It has been 13 years since the triplettes were on the CZD. Depends on how you define style but no one has done it faster or lighter to date afaik. Not a bad legacy to leave behind as to what might be possible.

I've always thought Mark intentionally painted an incredibly austere picture of himself in public compared to the reality. I'd hate to have to actually live up to that picture. I suspect Mark aint all that happy about it either. But my impression from talking with his partners over the years is Twight is fully capable of living up to his hype in the mountains. But isn't that the brilliance of Mark's writing? He is bigger than life in his writing. From what I have seen as a person he is no better or worse than any of the rest of us. A total douche bag some days and a great guy on others. Sound familiar?

But I have always found him to be honorable. Which means a lot more to me than how hard anyone climbs. Not a lot of climbers I would actually call honorable. When I wasn't climbing he gently encouraged me to get back out. It was nice and good timing on his part. I'm better for it. And I have never climbed with the guy. I can tell you for sure I have seen few if any that have stayed in the physical shape he has. That aint by accident. Cross fit? Can't do a pull up? Unless Twight was injured..any one that tells you Twight couldn't do a pull up, I guarantee you is full of sh#t. Bank it.

Training/the book/ and other "stolen" endurance and gear shit/rumors suggestions/accusations. Twight was just smart enough to adapt it to his own needs and put a label on it. Sucks to be you if you came up with it and didn't know how to use it. And I'd be pissed if they were my ideas. But then I haven't seen anything that wasn't credited to the original authors where appropriate. You can certainly decide what's appropriate and if you think some thing was missed.

Gym Jones? Elitist sure. Same reason you don't climb with gummbies if you are serious about leading 5.12. You climb with SERIOUS people with the same goals. No brainier. My guess is Gym Jones was started to better Mark's personal goals, not the paying public. If it survives, great idea. Marketing? We all have to make a living. Twight is good at it but from what I have seen personally in the past 2 decades he is way more into the doing than he ever was into the marketing hype. Take a look at the kids he sponsors and employees at the Gym. Take a look at the climbers he sponsored or just supported at Grivel NA. Twight has given back his share and more to the community. More than chump change and directly out of his pocket. Few here can say that. Damn few. I sure can't and I try.

"Why exactly does he present himself as an elitist prick"

Oh, that I think he believes...but then, so do/am I!
No apologies there, fook'um ;)
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
Nice post man.


I would defend him to anyone that said he didn't knock down some bad ass stuff. So true.

It's just that my dad was bad ass too, and he never looked down or talked down on anyone in his life. He carried a quiet power. I've never been able to live up to it my-own-self.

So I just have never had much patience for those who talk high and mighty, even if they can knock it down with the best of them. Maybe I just read him wrong. If so, my apologies to everyone involved.

My opinion has nothing at all to do with O2 or style by the way.
RDB

Social climber
wa
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
People and personalities are just different. Doesn't make it bad or good imo just different. Twight is hard to seperate from his writing if you don't know him well. And I don't. Likely impossible if you haven't met him.

I'm good with that.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
Well said survival.

I still say it's interesting to contrast folks impression of Twight versus Alex Lowe.

Hard to get down on a guy who was so clearly badass but who's most famous quote is "the best climber is the one having the most fun".

Disingenous?.. in a way perhaps but .. in another I'm sure he meant it.

I suppose that's why people never seem to have anything bad to say about Alex Lowe. Even when he was alive.

Kinda dumb getting all serious about this stuff and Twight and whatever.. But it's fun BSing here on the Taco when I can't get out and climb today.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 31, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
But it's fun BSing here on the Taco when I can't get out and climb today.


heh heh, ME TOO!

That's about all it amounts to, or is good for, in my case....
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 31, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
Well, a certain amount of dicksizing is inevitable in any group like this ...
nah000

Mountain climber
canuckistan
Jan 31, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
RDB: interesting post.

i can only speak for myself, but what follows is in response to your question: "...WTF are people giving Twight sh#t for?"

in general the issue is not his actual climbing nor his actual persona. not knowing him, it’s completely irrelevant what i think regarding those, but just so that what follows is clear, imo, he was obviously a badass climber, and he’s very likely an honorable person irl.

my issue is simple: it's the hyperbolic representation he makes of his climbing and the self-righteous judgement that he spews from that position.

if you read what he's written about himself (go ahead and click his wiki links before and after his first edit as one very representative example) you'd think he made a giant leap for climbing kind. sorry, just because he's a badass doesn't make him a climbing jesus. from my perspective, the climbing contribution that he made was not really that unprecedented. he helped consolidate and publicize an evolution within alpinism and yes some of it was relatively unprecedented for a north american climber. but on a world wide stage … i'm not convinced that it was as revolutionary as some of his writing makes it sound. maybe reality bath, but that is only due to a dead end willingness to expose himself to completely random risk.

now when a person couples a seemingly overinflated view of their historical position with a willingness to diss other climbers by applying their own personal tastes to publicly judge... well... let's put it this way: they're going to reap what they sow.

so that's the main issue for me. if he wants to imply a place for himself in the climbing pantheon, that's fine. who knows, maybe history will prove my current opinion wrong. but, if he wants to then use that position to diss other climbers: well his logic better be real f*#king good, and his actions better be real f*#king consistent with his message. for the reasons, i and others have mentioned, imo, twight fails often on both counts.

the piece that you originally linked to for example. there are very important issues surrounding using o's and sherpas. here's a list of a few off the top of my head:
1. crowding due to increased accessability is an issue (this is becoming an issue the world over, regardless of whether o's are used. for ex. even this climbing season on cerro torre).
2. if discarded bottles and trash aren't cleaned up, that’s an issue.
3. guides placing fixed protection in order to make the life of client escorting easier and therefore changing the experience for everyone else (currently, a significant issue in the canadian rockies).
4. hell, even the fact that most of the world has no clue what real climbing is and so they fall into thinking that someone who has climbed everest with o's and sherpas has somehow done something important, noteworthy or worthy of respect.

all of the above, yeah, let's debate any of those.

but equating someone using o's with lance armstrong, or someone lieing on a resume?

seriously?

the logic is a. transparently weak/hyperbolic and b. smacks of bringing non-localized rules to climbing (the irony of who the proponent for this is, just kills me).

i may have no personal interest in ever breathing out of a bottle of oxygen in order to climb. i may think queuing up on everest is the most moronic thing i've ever seen. i may even think that there is a place for limiting the use of o's to certain mountains or routes due to crowding. but a carte blanche equation between the use of o's and cheating?

nah, man, that equation is an insult to real cheaters everywhere.

but i'll give him this: he's one hell of a marketer and provocateur. look we're already 150 posts into a climbing topic and we're actually still discussing the original topic. in that regard kudos, mft, kudos.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 31, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
nah000,

Point # 3 is old hat. Canadian climbers on both sides of the mountains as money fence have always had a good back and forth with their 9 to 5 BFF's about what's appropriate behavior in public...
nah000

Mountain climber
canuckistan
Jan 31, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
Jim,

fair enough. all four of those are relatively perennial issues. but you're right with regards to fixed protection in the canadian rockies, and by guides especially, i should have prefaced it with "as always" rather than "currently". haha.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 31, 2013 - 11:24pm PT
guides placing fixed protection in order to make the life of client escorting easier and therefore changing the experience for everyone else (currently, a significant issue in the canadian rockies).


Is that true? I'm out of the loop but it wouldn't surprise me. How bad is it getting?
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 31, 2013 - 11:39pm PT
No one knows Bruce but the reflex of going home on time from a person's job is always open to expedience.
nah000

Mountain climber
canuckistan
Jan 31, 2013 - 11:53pm PT
Bruce,

here's a thread from gravsports-ice discussing parks canada's recentish retrobolting on the east ridge of mt. temple.

my comment probably has as much to do with the statement "all politics are local" as anything. ie. i was probably just thinking about it because i've run into it a few times of late. i climbed the east ridge ten or so years ago and while i sympathize with the parks rationale, i'm also saddened that others won't get to experience the wonderful joys of being lost in the black towers for themselves. haha.

and while it was probably retrobolted quite a while ago, i was just on the kain route on mt. louis this summer. here again i understand the rationale: that thing is climbed almost continuosly in good weather in the summer. still there is something sad about climbing a route that was put up in 1916 and having bolted belay anchors the whole way (or more correctly once it meets up with the gmoser route) and a perren crack sprouting a large number of bolts.

again, i don't know what the solutions are, and maybe there are none. it just seems like these are the questions that are worth discussing. ultimately they are questions of history, of climbing culture, and of climbing's future.

and as with all questions of culture there are nuances and multiple valid viewpoints. a black and white fundamentalist approach just seems, to me, so ... juvenile.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Feb 1, 2013 - 05:42pm PT
On the topic of O's on Everest:

Once Michael Graber tried to nab a Marlboro off of me in a bar. I grabbed them back like he was trying to steal my wee wee or something.

See...he had to turn around really close to the summit of Everest a short time before. I didn't want to pollute his lungs!!

Things also used to be very different 20 or 30 years ago. This was Robbins or Chouinard, or somebody's vision:

Yosemite was the pinnacle of world climbing and everyone had to come and do El Cap and get drug up painful offwidths. No sh#t. You really had to come to the valley and get good.

Then you were supposed to take that skill into the high mountains and do wicked hard routes rather than the "generally" easy routes on the big mountains.

The problem with that is that some of the best climbers on Earth can rule the world below 15,000 feet. When they go higher they always get sick. Altitude sickness is serious.

Something like that. Then eventually the valley quit being the mecca of the planet.

That discovery channel series was excellent to watch. There were some tough old suckers, your young narcisists, endurance athletes who wanted to try it. They don't even carry ice tools. Pony up the money and go.

I kind of enjoyed the show. It wasn't really climbing, but that's OK. People do all sorts of crazy stuff.
WTF

climber
Feb 1, 2013 - 07:58pm PT
Where does Viagra fall in line in this mode of thinking cuz im for a PED like viagra nothing better than a 2 hour boner even if you only need it for the two pump hump.;)

steveA

Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
Feb 2, 2013 - 08:47am PT
Every climber started their sport by emulating, others who had gone before them.

I first met MT in New Hampshire, while hiking up to do a climb on Whitehorse Ledge. He was cutting wood on John Bouchard's timber lot. John had taken a liking to him and gave him a job.

At that time Bouchard was a top flight alpinist and I'm sure MT was influenced by Bouchard's style.

RDB

Social climber
wa
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
"Every climber started their sport by emulating, others who had gone before them."

good comment and so true.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 2, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
Fostering a cult of personality is nothing new in climbing internationally but it usually galls a bit over here.

I used to joke that Twight couldn't take a dump without a shriek and a paragraph and he seems to be a man who needs a lot of attention even now.

I do wonder where the posturing and self irony ends.

Hard to imagine having the opportunity of hanging with Tom Frost, Henry Kendall and Jeff Lowe and yet preferring to pass the time in a smoky tent instead. That degree of self involvement is a bit tragic from my perspective.

Jeff's comments on the Kiss or Kill thread are very telling.
RDB

Social climber
wa
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2013 - 05:02pm PT
Right on Coz.

Found this on House's web site. Telling in this discussion I think.

"I want to say that the term normal route is deceptive on a mountain of this scale, it only gets climbed every few years (I believe a total of 4 ascents this year, there were a couple of other oxygen-assisted ascents, but those don’t count in my book).

One of the lessons of this expeditions was that for us to go to such a monsterous peak as their first 8,000’er was a judgement error on the part of Marko and I. My first 8,000’er was Cho Oyu, which is a total piece of cake in comparison, similar to climbing Denali. Makalu is steeper, higher, and simply more massive; a much more difficult proposition. To wit: Most parties who summit Makalu spend four days about 7,400 meters. By comparison on Cho Oyu the high camp is at 7,300 meters and from there to the summit takes most acclimated climbers (again, only counting those not cheating) about 8-12 hours.

THE WEST FACE...
...was almost a non-starter in part because both Marko and I objected to acclimating on the normal route, which shot us in the foot because it was pretty hard to get properly acclimated without going up there. We shunned the normal route because we both hate the trashy fixed lines, and we don’t relish the drama-scene that exists on all normal routes on big mountains these days. There are simply too many climbers breathing bottled oxygen and getting in way over their heads. This can end tragically as it did on our last days on the mountain when a Swiss climber died. Marko and I tried to get four O2 bottles up to her, but before we could reach her location (at Makalu La, 7,300 meters) we got word that she had passed......
..................

I think that the real question now is this: Am I willing to meet the mountain on the terms it demands? I can’t know that answer right now."

more here:

http://www.stevehouse.net/SteveHouse.net/Makalu_2011.html
orangesporanges

Social climber
Feb 2, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
Ever climbed that 8000 Coz? Did you use ladders?

Did you meet Rob McDonald on 300? What do you make of blokes that strut around reminding people of how bad arse they are(were?) - he hasn'd done an MMA fight in years yet still tells everyone he IS still an MMA fighter - thought Twight would have pulled him into line on that since his beloved "disciple" trains/exercises but doesn't seem to be still competing at anything.

Bhouy does that Gym Jones crowd love to Twitter.

Wonder why MFT didn't want to go to the rock gym - you hung a tonne, so was it you or him?
RDB

Social climber
wa
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2013 - 05:06pm PT
Orange you are an idiot.

As the man said, "I could explain it to you, but I can' comprehend it for you."

Anyone that has spent any time seriously doing MMA knows he is a fighter and his rung on that ladder. Not climbing or being unable to climb doen't make you something else. Unless you want to tell me Jello is no longer a climber...
orangesporanges

Social climber
Feb 2, 2013 - 05:10pm PT
When did he last fight mate? He claims to still be doing such.

FYI: Attended a two-day seminar in SLC. Mutton dressed as lamb
RDB

Social climber
wa
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2013 - 05:43pm PT
Ha, ha, ha! btdt and got the t shirt. Several of them. Now they are all worn or wasted, thrown or given away. But still got the T shirt :)

Never needed one lately to tell me, or anyone else btdt.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 2, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
bit'er ol' guy

climber
the past
Feb 3, 2013 - 12:49am PT

Marc Twight backs it up.

02 as doping.

Awsome!
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Feb 3, 2013 - 01:18am PT
I always like Mark's Entertainment - the over the top bravado that almost mocked climbing.
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Feb 3, 2013 - 01:41am PT
gonna lay some heavy bread on y'all:

the post-post-irony is that Twight's Dr. Doomisms weren't shtick at all
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Feb 3, 2013 - 02:10am PT
I'm not saying they weren't real - I'm saying it was entertaining. It was cool that he would come out and say it. I could tell it was real terror, at least in the sense that it seemed like the real normally unspoken thing. I guess the marvel was that somebody could climb and feel that way. Sex with death! Death to Sanity! It pretty much just goes with the territory; No country for old men.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Feb 3, 2013 - 03:11am PT
Talked to a friend with ACTUAL first hand knowledge.

I recant my previous statements about Mark being an A-hole.
Apparently I was completely misreading the man.
Sorry Mark.
RDB

Social climber
wa
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2013 - 12:17pm PT
Interesting follow up to Twight's original comment.

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2013/02/epictv-interviews-ueli-steck-on.html
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