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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 24, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
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If you have an opinion about which one of the two locations that have been chosen by the "powers to be" for the toilet at theMIlks, you should voice it now.
ESPECIALLY IF YOU THINK THE BIRTHDAY BOULDERS PARKING ARA IS A HORRIBLE SPOT.
http://www.fs.fed.us/nepa/fs-usda-pop.php/?project=36194
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Jan 24, 2013 - 11:03pm PT
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Who really cares so long as ppl stop taking their shits across from green wall. Nobody is walking to the lower parking (where nobody parks either) to sh#t so from a functional POV I'd say the top makes more sense. Both would probably be ideal with the type of business the milks get these days.
Wait a sec.... Isn't there like 2 other threads on this sh#t already?!? At least it's climbing related.
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weezy
climber
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Jan 24, 2013 - 11:04pm PT
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top of grandma peabody.
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 24, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
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Please read the link. This is a new public comment period. Thanks for your input.
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Bill Mc Kirgan
Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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Jan 24, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
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title had me thinking this would be about colonic preparations.
--edit--
Seriously....
Thanks for the link to the site with information on the Buttermilk Toilet Locations.
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ruppell
climber
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Jan 24, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
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Construction of up to two small vault toilets adjacent to the Buttermilk area of the Bishop Creek drainage in order to protect resource values and address health and safety issues, in the face of increasing dispersed recreation in that area.
From the planning detail from the USDA. Seems like there already thinking two is a good idea. I'd have to agree.
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Relic
Social climber
Vancouver, BC
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Jan 24, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
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The happies have a shitter in the parking lot. I had a good dump there. I didn't think it marred the view or anything having a shitter in the parking lot.
It sounds like a sensible place to put a shitter, the main parking lot by the birthday boulders. I would sh#t there happily. It might not look as pretty having one in the lot, but amoungst the cars would it really be that bad?
What is your take on It Chinchen?
Edit:
Just read this from the other thread and I agree with it...
The Borrow Pit sits to the east of the Buttermilks, and the prevailing wind will often push the odors away from the boulders. As a heavily travelled site, installing a toilet will not significantly alter the character of the area, and it will be less affected by increased camping. In addition, because it is situated next to the road, the Borrow Pit is better suited to handle a toilet, and maximizes the toilet’s utility.
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 24, 2013 - 11:39pm PT
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This is my take, but apparently this location is out of the question because of "a sensitive native site" nearby. I don't really want to add to the clutter of the B-Day parking area and have to look at a shitter and smell it while warming up on the B-Day boulder. Seems like there is a better compromise to the two chosen sites. Problem is that this has been a long process and at least one is needed. Supposedly there is also DWP or BLM land on the SW side of the fence/cattle guard where the F.S. would not have a say...
Sorry to start another thread.
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Relic
Social climber
Vancouver, BC
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Jan 24, 2013 - 11:59pm PT
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I don't think laziness would be a problem with people using the east site. The Happies shitter is a bit of a trek too.
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 25, 2013 - 12:00am PT
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Yea, you know how many times I heard people ask where to sh#t this last holiday season? A bunch. T.P.everywhere up there. Wake up.
I guess I will start posting the pics I have been taking of the damage.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jan 25, 2013 - 12:03am PT
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Buttermilk Shitter
Yeah! Who IS that person anyway?
What a mess...
JK/LOL
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Jan 25, 2013 - 12:44am PT
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I disagree that a toilet at the birthday parking would have a significant negative impact on views. It is a parking lot with cars in it, a toilet really wouldn't have any effect.
I don't think the idea that a toilet would be horrible in the birthday boulders is necessarily the majority opinion. It really seems the most logical place to build, where it will minimize new impacts and get the most use and be easiest to service, etc.
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 25, 2013 - 01:00am PT
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Other than the potential for smell, having it a mere 40 ft from 4 or 5 popular boulders and between us and the amazing view will be sad. Personally I think they should shut down the turn-around there as well and push the parking back a bit. Thats my only argument.
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pyrosis
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Jan 25, 2013 - 02:22am PT
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Agree with Jason that right at the Birthday parking area would be a bit unfortunate, having it a bit down the hill would be nice. Also agree that location 1 in the map would not get used.
It saddens me to no end to see all the toilet paper, used tampons, trash, etc... up at the happies. People are clearly way too lazy to walk five minutes rather than just sh#t where they are.
The middle spot on the map would be my preference as well, close on average no matter where you might be when the 'urge' strikes you, down out of the view and out of smelling range of most of the boulders. Is this really an option? Seems ideal.
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Todd Townsend
Social climber
Bishop, CA
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Jan 25, 2013 - 03:25am PT
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Tavis, the middle spot is not really an option. The Forest Service is legally only allowed to consider the two sites that they identified in the EA. Right now, the only options on the table are one or both of those sites, or nothing at all.
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ruppell
climber
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Jan 25, 2013 - 11:39am PT
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BOTH
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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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Jan 25, 2013 - 11:46am PT
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i agree that the site at the birthdays would be a bummer because of the smell.
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 25, 2013 - 11:48am PT
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My vote is for neither, until a suitable location can be approved.
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Jan 25, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
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I interpret the passage in the EA about other locations (near the cattle grate) to mean that no heritage resources were specifically identified, but there isn't the will or the money to disturb that area by building a toilet. There are already disturbed areas that they deem acceptable to build on, so why spend money on archaeological surveys and disturb more land if it isn't necessary. They have good justification to not disturb any relatively undisturbed land, so it seems that the two locations identified are the only possibilities. Like Todd said, they already considered the effects on smell and visual quality in the EA, and determined that the toilet's effects on both would be insignificant.
If you don't want the birthday boulder toilet, the only alternative seems to be one toilet at the barrow pit. Reasonable people would make the 600ft walk to that toilet from iron man. Maybe close the BDay boulder parking and the parking along the road and make people park at the barrow pit to encourage toilet use?
You can't just disagree with their conclusions about smell and visual impact and expect them to change their mind, their conclusions are supported by more experienced and better trained folks than most of us are. If you were the decision maker, would you listen to someone who has built 100 toilets saying the impacts will be negligible, or someone with only his experience of pooping in toilets saying it will be significant? I understand that people's opinions about the Milks are supported by spending countless hours there, but try to put yourself in the administrator's shoes.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Jan 25, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
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The borrow pit seems like an ideal spot to me. The bumpy road usually knocks something loose on the way up there, so just dump it off on the way up the road. If it isn't quite there when you drive by... WALK down there when it is ready.
For christ's sake you punters, it is only 600 yards from Bday Boulder parking to the borrow pit with less than 200' vertical gain.
Grow a sack!
Then again, I don't care where they put it, as long as people stop shitting so close to the boulders.
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Jan 25, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
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http://fsgeodata.fs.fed.us/rastergateway/data/37118/fstopo/371511830_Tungsten_Hills_FSTopo.pdf
This map shows that the entire area is in Inyo NF and no BLM land comes in to play. The slightly shaded areas seem to be inholdings/leases of land inside the forest (DWP Land, other privately held land). Be careful if you assume that being outside of those areas means you won't get tooled for camping, it doesn't seem like most folks actually know where the borders are, enforcement folks included.
http://www.rockiesog.com/fedlands_start.kmz <-- a link to a google earth layer with fairly low res federal land boundaries (it includes the area around the Milks) The purple boxes again seem to be privately held land within the NF.
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 25, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
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Glad you trust the government to make good decisions Frank....What do I know.
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Jan 25, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
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It isn't a matter of trust, it is about knowing the reality of it. The decision maker is bound by policy and within the flexibility that policy allows, their decisions are guided by opinions. Expert opinions tend to be given more weight than non-expert opinions.
Most of the policies are compromises that don't result in ideal outcomes for any side of the debate. It seems less than ideal, but I dare you to come up with something better for all sides.
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The Wedge
Boulder climber
Santa Rosa & Bishop, CA
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Jan 25, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
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Franky " I disagree that a toilet at the birthday parking would have a significant negative impact on views. It is a parking lot with cars in it, a toilet really wouldn't have any effect.
I don't think the idea that a toilet would be horrible in the birthday boulders is necessarily the majority opinion. It really seems the most logical place to build, where it will minimize new impacts and get the most use and be easiest to service, etc."
Franky,,
I disagree with your statement about the shitter have a neg. impact at the B-day boulders location. There ARE times(not many but enough) when I and many other have been out there and no one has parked at the Bday lot. Its nice to look to the west and not see any man made structures. A 10-12 foot tall shitter up on a hill would be visually impacting. Also with a majority of the winds blowing from west to east, the smell would encompass the entire bouldering area. I believe the best location is #1 down below the Peabody.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Jan 25, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
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I'm not sure how a shitter anywhere would affect the views at the Buttermilks
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Jan 25, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
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I'm not saying people are wrong about that location being bad. It is entirely possible that the stink of it will overwhelm climbers at the birthday boulder (I love that boulder by the way). It is possible folks will consider the toilet an eyesore. In my opinion it won't be a big deal, but i may be wrong. More important than my opinion, the experts have decided that the pros outweigh the cons at the birthday parking location. The risk of the toilet sucking is worth the reward of not having poop and tp everywhere to me.
It seems the only way to avoid the birthday toilet and have a toilet is to have only one at the barrow pit. There are definitely significant cons to that, but maybe that is the best answer?
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t-bone
climber
Bishop
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Jan 25, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
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It's really a shame other areas weren't scoped out. I guess the FS doesn't have the money/ interest to initiate environmental studies for such a small project.
Now we just have build/ no build and I think a shitter at the Bithday lot sucks too. It's one of the best viewpoints in the area.
I'd much prefer one across from the lower parking or by the cattleguard.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Jan 25, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
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All the stink about the location reminds me of Tea Baggers in the gubermint who complain about government spending while reaping the benefits of a government paycheck.
Not everyone can sh#t on command at Schatt's. People are not going to drive back to town to sh#t, besides, we don't want to encourage excess fuel consumption. There WILL be sh#t at the Buttmilks, whether it is on the ground or in the facility.
If the deal gets nixed because people complain about the location, I hope those who complain would be willing to help clean up the resulting mess. We the people have the opportunity to use tax dollars to reduce some of the very real environmental impacts of our actions... and we complain because of the very minor scenic impacts (<1% of the view shed)?
Seems odd considering the multiple roads, ATV's, etc. It isn't like the shitter will block the view of Basin or Tom.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 25, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
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Only in America would somebody bitch about a Sh!tter in a parking lot!
Besides, the sh!tter would be an improvement compared to some vehicles there.
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t-bone
climber
Bishop
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Jan 25, 2013 - 02:31pm PT
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only in America does it take years of documents, reports, environmental and cultural studies, multiple engineers, and a shitload of money to install a shitter on the side of an existing road
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Jan 25, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
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I'm not aware of any public shitters at any of the sectors in Fontainebleau, which blows the doors off of the Buttmilks in terms of the number of visitors. One trip to a popular European crag and you will see how lucky we are to have agencies that deal with these shitty issues.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jan 25, 2013 - 04:36pm PT
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It may not smell at all once you are 50 feet from the toilet. You can put charcoal filters on the vent stacks but they have to be replaced. If It is windy the smell would be dispersed quickly and you probably would not notice it.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jan 25, 2013 - 05:05pm PT
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Charcoal vent-stack filters are VERY effective and last a pretty long time. They are also really cheap to build if you know what you're doing (~$50 and an hour of labor). Even buying off the shelf they aren't that spendy.
B-day parking is the most logical spot IMO. Viewshed arguments ring hollow for that spot. I'd also say you'll get significantly higher compliance (i.e. people shitting in the pit instead of the desert) at that location vs. the borrow pit or other roadside areas.
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