Who's you favorite fascist?

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TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 13, 2013 - 10:40am PT
Benito Amilcare Andrea Mussolini


Hands down.
can't say

Social climber
Pasadena CA
Jan 13, 2013 - 10:42am PT
Dick Cheney
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jan 13, 2013 - 11:02am PT
Obama, ha ha!

Wakey wakey, eggs and bakey . . .
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 13, 2013 - 11:25am PT
Attila the Hun - probably the most successful.

Attila the Hun died unexpectedly in 453 at the age of 47, on his wedding night, allegedly MURDERED by his bride, a Burgundian Princess. His empire began disintegrating after his death,
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jan 13, 2013 - 11:32am PT
Fatty!
"I prefer facism to socialism"
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 13, 2013 - 11:35am PT
His empire began disintegrating after his death,


Ah. Just like all empires built on over reach, violence and illusion.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 13, 2013 - 11:56am PT
Kim Jong Un, the sexiest man alive!
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Jan 13, 2013 - 11:57am PT
Define fascist.
Salamanizer

Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
Jan 13, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
Define it? Well, Democratic fascism could be described as a narcissistic leader exceeding his powers through the overuse of executive privilege;)

And my favorite fascist, is a dead fascist... Same for socialist leaders.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Jan 13, 2013 - 12:14pm PT
This thread is just a trick to see who will invoke Goodwin first.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 13, 2013 - 12:22pm PT
Define it? Well, Democratic fascism could be described as a narcissistic leader exceeding his powers through the overuse of executive privilege;)


You mean like George W signing 291 executive orders?

Obama has signed 139 so far, so he's not on track to overtake Bush.

All this bullshit that Obama has signed 900 is just internet trash.

So easy to fact check.
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jan 13, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
He said he wouldn't use them.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 13, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
BO: " i believe in the constitution and i wont do anything to change it"


which of course,, was BS.....


survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 13, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
which of course,, was BS.....

Which part of the constitution has he changed Ron?



He said he wouldn't use them.


Signing statements and executive orders aren't the same thing. You guys should really bone up on some basic research skills.

Much less well-known than the executive order is the presidential signing statement, which, as “a presidential power tool,” according to Phillip J. Cooper in his recent book, By Order of the President, is “relatively new and still evolving.”4 As defined by Cooper:
Presidential signing statements (PSSs) are announcements made by the president, usually prepared by the Justice Department, that go beyond merely lauding passage of a statute to identify provisions of the legislation with which the president has concerns. They also provide the president’s interpretation of the language of the law, announce constitutional limits on the implementation of some of its provisions, or indicate directions to executive branch officials as to how to administer the new law in an acceptable manner. So constituted, the signing statement has been used as a tool of presidential direct action since the Reagan administration.5
As with current executive orders, current presidential signing statements are available on the White House website. However, it is important to distinguish between the similarly-named public-oriented statement and the legal statement.
For instance, under “news” - March 9, 2006 are two distinct documents. One, “President Signs USA PATRIOT Improvement and Reauthorization Act”6 is the public statement, in the nature of a press release.
4
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jan 13, 2013 - 12:41pm PT

Here you go:




And then this:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/179/revise-the-patriot-act-to-increase-oversight-on-go/

On May 26, 2011, President Barack Obama signed a bill that reauthorized key elements of the Patriot Act. The bill called for a four-year renewal of some of the most controversial provisions of the surveillance legislation. While the bulk of the Patriot Act is steadfast law, there are certain measures that Congress must periodically reauthorize or else they expire. Among them is roving wiretaps, i.e., the ability of law enforcement officials to track targets if they change phones without law enforcement first consulting a judge.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Jan 13, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
OBAMA SECRETLY ADDED THE 73RD AMENDMENT WHICH MAKES HIM SUPREME RULER AND KING!!!111

I READ IT ON THE INTERNET!!!#@@@Q!1
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jan 13, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
Whatever, Dave. DBAD
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 13, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jun/17/curl-obama-a-domestic-enemy-of-the-us-constitution/?page=all



for starters^^^^^
Salamanizer

Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
Jan 13, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
You mean like George W signing 291 executive orders?


Yes! They're neck n neck. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Ohbummers orders are starting to get much more virulent though.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 13, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
Reach, he signed something that "reauthorized". I guess you missed that part. Happy to help.



Much less well-known than the executive order is the presidential signing statement, which, as “a presidential power tool,” according to Phillip J. Cooper in his recent book, By Order of the President, is “relatively new and still evolving.”4 As defined by Cooper:
Presidential signing statements (PSSs) are announcements made by the president, usually prepared by the Justice Department, that go beyond merely lauding passage of a statute to identify provisions of the legislation with which the president has concerns. They also provide the president’s interpretation of the language of the law, announce constitutional limits on the implementation of some of its provisions, or indicate directions to executive branch officials as to how to administer the new law in an acceptable manner. So constituted, the signing statement has been used as a tool of presidential direct action since the Reagan administration.5
As with current executive orders, current presidential signing statements are available on the White House website. However, it is important to distinguish between the similarly-named public-oriented statement and the legal statement.
For instance, under “news” - March 9, 2006 are two distinct documents. One, “President Signs USA PATRIOT Improvement and Reauthorization Act”6 is the public statement, in the nature of a press release.
4


Salamander, they're not neck-n-neck. George is actually a full 20 ahead in the same period of time.

Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Jan 13, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
So if Obama has done anything unconstitutional, why don't you Patriots take it up in the courts and have his actions overturned?

Don't have resources to file a lawsuit against the government?

Then donate to the ALCU - they do have the resources, if Americans support them.

You guys are doing something, right?



Oh yeah, I've already asked that one here....cue the cricket sounds.
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jan 13, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
I would love to see the Patriot Act taken up by the courts.

Survival, I thought "interpretation" of legislation was the job of the judicial branch.

Dave, do you think our government is following the constitution ok. Do you see any reason for concern? What's your thoughts on the Patriot act?
Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Jan 13, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
John Major. A real bastard, but he was entertaining to watch on Questions to the Prime Minister.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 13, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
Executive order is nothing new.

There are over 13,600 of them!!!
They date back to Abe Lincoln, a republican.

Check any year you want guys, jeesh....

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/executive_orders.php?year=2012&Submit=DISPLAY
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 13, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
Some here keep going back to bush in comparison of obamas actions.. Yet that doesnt seem to sink in.. BUSHOBAMA-RAMA......


and he now threatens executive order on the Second Amendment on which he thoroughly plans to infringe upon..
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 13, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
Ron, executive order cannot CREATE law, congress does that.

Executive order can increase "enforcement" of an existing law.


Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jan 13, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
Oh, I see now, survival, if you "reauthorize" an unconstitutional law it doesn't count.

Yeah, that was a Bush administration law, Obama merely choose to sign off on its continuance. That makes it all better, whew . . .
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jan 13, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
My favorite "can-be-seen-as-republican" is Niccolo Machiavelli. Some may think he was also a fascist as a thinker.
Credit: Marlow
Credit: Marlow
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 13, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
Survival,, WHA?? try NDAA 2013.. we now have a "LAW" that says we can take anyone anywhere far from any war..
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 13, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
Dude, take it up with someone who can help with that sort of thing.

Who is actually working to change this unconstitutional law?

Shouldn't the supreme court be overturning it?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 13, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
Doood,, i have,, MULTIPLE times in fact. Suffice to say my efforts would have been better spent buying ammo..I get no answers, no return emails or even a kiss my rosey red.. Its as if those politician web sites are a simple vacume to suck up your complaints on put them in an air tight dust bag for easy disposal...
dirtbag

climber
Jan 13, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
Credit: dirtbag
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jan 13, 2013 - 01:08pm PT
I'm sorry, survival, I realized I posted the same video twice.

And, I did confuse signing statements with executive orders. Thanks for setting me straight.

Re. the Patriot act this is the video I meant to post.

Dave, please note Obama implies the Patriot Act is an "end run" around the constitution. A statement with which I agree.

Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Jan 13, 2013 - 01:10pm PT
Dave, do you think our government is following the constitution ok. Do you see any reason for concern? What's your thoughts on the Patriot act?

Like many others here, I believe that some aspects of the Patriot Act could be questionable per the Constitution. It is a tricky legal grey area that deals with different scopes of the military and law enforcement, which are respectively bound by different rules.

I'm not a lawyer, and don't have the knowledge to make a specific challenge to the Patriot Act, but I would like to see someone who does have the knowledge take it on.

That is why I began donating to the ACLU two years ago, because I believe they are the group that will be most effective in mounting a strong legal challenge to the Patriot Act and ensuring these questions are thoroughly vetted by the courts.

This is how the American system was designed to work.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 13, 2013 - 01:13pm PT
Dave,, the American system was working fine as DESIGNED by the originators.. It IS NOT the American system to have to defend the constitution against radical changes. That is the thirst of executive powers by ALL in our govt.
That is PEOPLE deciding they are better and smarter than our Constitution against the grain of the rest of the people of which it serves.



edit: Gmarnin DIRT!!!
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 13, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
I define fascism as politics, government and the broad attempt to control others colored by an anger that is seeping down into hate and the considerations that portions on humanity can only be controlled by force, threat of extermination and extermination.

Some fascists sit on a couch and spout vitriol about "those" people. You often feel dirty or much less happy after listening to them.

Fascist organizations seem to be quite sturdy in structure and always seem to be effectively busy violating basic human rights, often in very complex and covert ways that leave you with a feeling of being overwhelmed.



Positive and creative people make the real advances in civilization. Fascists undermine these and cause eventual collapse.
portent

climber
Jan 13, 2013 - 01:24pm PT
Archie Bunker

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 13, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
What's that got to do with fascism?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 13, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
http://www.wordaroundthenet.com/2013/01/common-knowledge-fascism.html#links
Chinchen

climber
Way out there....
Jan 13, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
Cragman.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 13, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
It's doubtful, and rather ahistorical, to characterize Attila the Hun or Temujin (Genghis Khan) as "fascists". They were authoritarian and autocratic, but only notable in that they were more successful in doing so than other peoples and leaders of the time. Fascism as it's understood now isn't really possible without a somewhat industrialized society, the modern nation state, etc. The first arguably fascistic states were those that arose in Europe in reaction to the French revolution and Napoleon, or perhaps after the revolts of 1848.
DanaB

climber
CT
Jan 13, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
Sam Walton
Edward Bernays
little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
Jan 13, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
from Wikipedia:

corporative organization of the economy that suppresses trade union liberty, broadens the sphere of state intervention, and seeks to achieve, by principles of technocracy and solidarity, the collaboration of the 'productive sectors' under control of the regime, to achieve its goals of power, yet preserving private property and class divisions;"

i.e. Goerge Steinbrenner
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 13, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
Locker


















































Or Braun.. its a toss up
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Jan 13, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
Dick Cheney


He's my favorite fascist....

...to hate
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jan 13, 2013 - 04:42pm PT
with ya there slr
Michelle

Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
Jan 13, 2013 - 04:47pm PT
Dick Cheney

never trust the guy who shoots his friends in the face..
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jan 13, 2013 - 05:27pm PT
Is that guy even human?
hossjulia

Trad climber
Where the Hoback and the mighty Snake River meet
Jan 13, 2013 - 05:34pm PT
I don't know but I'm on the schedule to clean his house next week. I may ask to be pulled from that one.
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2013 - 05:59pm PT
I don't know but I'm on the schedule to clean his house next week

Can't you just have an "accident" there?
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 13, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
Sorry to break up the party but most of these people are fascists only in the sense that the word has become a pejorative for authority of any kind.


Probably call these folks nihilsts or anarchists.

The ones on this thread may be better termed sociopaths. Not locker and Herrr Braun.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 13, 2013 - 07:38pm PT
Anybody see Starship Troopers?

The director, Paul V, was trying to say that war makes fascists of us all.
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Jan 13, 2013 - 07:40pm PT
Newt Gingrich.

Am I showing my blue underwear again?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 13, 2013 - 07:50pm PT
The director, Paul V, was trying to say that war makes fascists of us all.

Or more like authoritarians. For good reason too. When the chips are down during times of war its hard to imagine any other way.

I mean real war too, not this foreign adventure stuff.

The thing is if war (or any other crisis) never ends, then authoritarianism should also never end.....

right?
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Jan 14, 2013 - 09:41am PT
what happened to Weege's wise crack?

Did the Mrs. see it?
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Jan 14, 2013 - 09:46am PT
Hossjulia, your diatribe wins: "Hands up, MF." Highly entertaining, sorry for your grief, gal.

Favorite Asshole/Fascist/Liar is Hafez al-Assad, the daddy of the current asshate in charge of Syria. Not for much longer, I hope.

What's with all the O-bashing, men? He's gone in three and a half. Find a target for your ire that's not running my country, OK? You think your BS is gonna change ANYTHING?

IF My President is a dreaded fascist, and IF he starts putting my friends in jail, THEN we can do something, and it's called TAKING IT TO THE STREETS. So sit on it, fools.
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Jan 14, 2013 - 09:56am PT
You mean like George W signing 291 executive orders?

You mean like Bill Clinton signing 364 executive orders?

http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/executive-orders/clinton.html


Still far behind the King - FDR had over 3700. One even "relocated" those evil Japanese living here. But it's all good - he had a D after his name.

Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Jan 14, 2013 - 10:25am PT
Fox News and Limbaugh tell them that Executive Orders are some new trick devised by Obama Hitler.

And they all fall in line, obey their orders, and carry on with the usual hysteria.

None bother to ask what an executive order actually is, whether they are unique to any administration or president.

None even consider history - that they started with George Washington himself.

Why should they? Murdoch and Limbaugh tell them that Executive Orders are some devilry conjured up by the Antichrist himself.

And they all fall in line.

Nationalism, patriotism, religion -- a blind, ignorant obedience toward those who invoke these things with the most zeal.

I think we have our definition now.

A brilliant example of fascism.

Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Jan 14, 2013 - 10:32am PT
Actually Dave, not true. There was a lot of discussion about EOs during the Clinton administration. Which always struck me as funny since Reagan had more than Clinton.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Jan 14, 2013 - 12:06pm PT
The Bush Family

The father of Bush I, Prescott Bush led an attempted Fascist cup on FDR.
The Bush Family made it's rich's on financing the Nazi War machine

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2007/240707fascistcoup.htm

BBC: Bush's Grandfather Planned Fascist Coup In America
New investigation sheds light on clique of powerbrokers, including Prescott Bush, who sought to overthrow U.S. government and implement Hitlerian policies

Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet
Tuesday, July 24, 2007


A BBC Radio 4 investigation sheds new light on a major subject that has received little historical attention, the conspiracy on behalf of a group of influential powerbrokers, led by Prescott Bush, to overthrow FDR and implement a fascist dictatorship in the U.S. based around the ideology of Mussolini and Hitler.

In 1933, Marine Corps Maj.-Gen. Smedley Butler was approached by a wealthy and secretive group of industrialists and bankers, including Prescott Bush the current President's grandfather, who asked him to command a 500,000 strong rogue army of veterans that would help stage a coup to topple then President Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

According to the BBC, the plotters intended to impose a fascist takeover and "Adopt the policies of Hitler and Mussolini to beat the great depression."


The conspirators were operating under the umbrella of a front group called the American Liberty League, which included many families that are still household names today, including Heinz, Colgate, Birds Eye and General Motors.

Butler played along with the clique to determine who was involved but later blew the whistle and identified the ringleaders in testimony given to the House Committee on un-American Activities.

However, the Committee refused to even question any of the individuals named by Butler and his testimony was omitted from the record, leading to charges that they were involved in covering the matter up, and the majority of the media blackballed the story.


General Smedley Butler, author of the famous quote "war is a racket", exposed the fascist plotters but was subsequently demonized and shunned by the government and the media.

In 1936, William Dodd, the U.S. Ambassador to Germany, wrote a letter to President Roosevelt in which he stated,

"A clique of U.S. industrialists is hell-bent to bring a fascist state to supplant our democratic government and is working closely with the fascist regime in Germany and Italy. I have had plenty of opportunity in my post in Berlin to witness how close some of our American ruling families are to the Nazi regime.... A prominent executive of one of the largest corporations, told me point blank that he would be ready to take definite action to bring fascism into America if President Roosevelt continued his progressive policies. Certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy. They extended aid to help Fascism occupy the seat of power, and they are helping to keep it there. Propagandists for fascist groups try to dismiss the fascist scare. We should be aware of the symptoms. When industrialists ignore laws designed for social and economic progress they will seek recourse to a fascist state when the institutions of our government compel them to comply with the provisions."

The proven record of Prescott Bush's involvement in financing the Nazi war machine dovetails with the fact that he was part of a criminal cabal that actively sought to impose a fascist coup in America.

Prescott did not succeed but many would argue that two generations down the line the mission has all but been accomplished.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 14, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
You mean like Bill Clinton signing 364 executive orders?

Exactly. My point was going after the current conspiracy bullschit lie madness circulating that O has signed over 900 and that he is trying to become a dictator. I was only trying to point out that King George signed his share of them. But these shadow smokers don't listen anyway.....
Like a bunch of gawdamn paranoid meth freaks.

13,700 exec orders since Lincoln? Apparently they're not that gawdamn dangerous to the root of the nation.

dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Jan 14, 2013 - 12:12pm PT


Three Ways Obama Carried Bush’s Tyrannical Torch, in Just One Week
John Glaser, January 03, 2013

Credit: dirt claud


If one were looking for a way to demonstrate how faithfully the Obama administration had carried on the legacy of the Bush administration, this past week takes the cake, and no, I’m not talking about making Bush tax cuts on the middle class permanent.

In a matter of four days, President Obama ushered in three landmark decisions that further institutionalized the Bush administration’s penchant for abridging civil liberties in the name of national security, all the while making us less safe.

1. Warrantless wiretapping of American citizens: On Sunday, Obama signed into law a renewal of the FISA Amendments Act of 2008, which authorizes broad, warrantless surveillance of Americans’ international communications, checked only by a secretive Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court that doesn’t make it’s activities and procedures available to the public.

Obama voted for the FISA Amendments Act as a senator, but with expressed reservations about “President Bush’s abuse of executive power,” and the constitutional protections that the warrantless surveillance program offended. As President, though, Obama has turned into a staunch supporter of these legally questionable abuses of executive power.

Justice Department documents released in September in litigation brought by the ACLU showed “that federal law enforcement agencies are increasingly monitoring Americans’ electronic communications, and doing so without warrants, sufficient oversight, or meaningful accountability.”

“Part of the problem is much of this is being done in secret and there’s very little oversight or accountability,” NSA whistleblower Nick Drake told Al Jazeera recently. “It was just stunning when I found out that the White House had entered into a secret agreement with the National Security Agency to completely bypass the FISA, and by bypassing it they turned the USA into the equivalent of a foreign nation for the purposes of dragnet, blanket electronic surveillance…in secret.”

Even though the government has acknowledged that the secretive program has exceeded its legal limits, violating Americans’ Fourth Amendment constitutional rights, the Obama administration has aggressively refused to allow any checks and balances on the program, even refusing congressional requests to disclose how many Americans have been spied on.

2. Indefinite detention without charge or trial: On Wednesday, Obama signed the 2013 National Defense Authorization Act into law. The 680-page omnibus bill contains more military and national security provisions than any one person can account for, but it notably renews the prohibition against transferring detainees from Guantanamo Bay to the US for any purpose, a measure which again prevents Obama from fulfilling his pledge to close the black hole detention center.

Obama initially threatened a veto of the bill due to this provision, but the threat proved a false one. In a signing statement, Obama said he disagreed with the provision, despite his signing it into law.

But it’s difficult to take his stated reservations seriously. Back in 2010, the President signed an executive order that “establishe[d] indefinite detention as a long-term Obama administration policy and [made] clear that the White House alone will manage a review process for those it chooses to hold without charge or trial,” reported ProPublica at the time.

And in last year’s NDAA, there were even more controversial provisions suggesting American citizens, detained on US soil, can be locked up without charge or trial as enemy combatants. The constitutionality of those provisions, which advocates say are acceptable under the 2001 AUMF, is still being fought out in the US court of appeals.

In Afghanistan, too, the Obama era has meant mere suspects can be locked away without charge or trial in abusive detention camps, mostly in secret. The US military’s increased use of night raids led to a huge surge in detainees, very few of whom have had any evidence placed against them. The Obama administration has had them sent to Bagram to be held for indefinite detention without charge or trial, which Daphne Eviatar, an attorney for Human Rights First, has described as “worse than Guantanamo, because there are fewer rights.”

The Washington Post reported on Tuesday that the practice of extraordinary rendition, wherein suspects are captured and transferred to another country to be held without charge or trial, is “taking on renewed significance” under Obama.

3. Targeted killings of suspects by drone, without any pretense of due process (even if they are US citizens) remains none of the American people’s business.

One could argue that Obama doesn’t support indefinite detention as much as Bush did, since he supports killing suspects before the issue of detention ever arises.

On Wednesday, a federal judge sided with the Obama administration in a case brought by The New York Times in which the latter was demanding that more information about the legality of the drone war be disclosed.

In terms of carrying on the legacy of the Bush administration, this one is a double-whammy. Not only did Obama expand Bush’s covert drone program exponentially, but he’s doing so by shutting out any judicial scrutiny by claiming disclosures would harm national security, a tactic called ‘state secrets privileges’ which was pioneered by the Bush administration.

US District Judge Colleen McMahon in Manhattan appeared reluctant in her ruling, noting she “can find no way around the thicket of laws and precedents that effectively allow the executive branch of our government to proclaim as perfectly lawful certain actions that seem on their face incompatible with our Constitution and laws while keeping the reasons for their conclusion a secret.”

“The Alice-in-Wonderland nature of this pronouncement is not lost on me,” McMahon said, referring to the nightmarish wonderland in which people are sentenced to death before a verdict from a jury is in.

The Obama administration has continued its dramatic increase in the use of armed drones to target and kill mostly unnamed people, primarily in Yemen and Pakistan. When a high-profile terrorist suspect is killed, the Obama administration openly discusses the success of the drone program. But when journalists and civil liberties groups ask tough, scrutinizing questions about the legality of the program, the administration gets away with ignoring their requests for information, claiming the program is secret.

Meanwhile, a report by researchers at the Stanford and NYU schools of law found in September that the drone program is “terrorizing” the people of Pakistan and that it is having “counterproductive” effects.

In Yemen, drone attacks are dramatically increasing, bombing the country over 42 times in 2012, up from an estimated 10 incidents in 2011, and killing at least 223 people. Virtually all of the victims’ indentities remain classified, thanks to the Obama administration, and al-Qaeda recruitment continues to grow in Yemen because of disgruntled locals who resent their families and tribes being relentlessly bombed and killed by the hundreds.

The Washington Post reported last week, the Yemeni government as a policy tries to conceal when US drones kill civilians, instead automatically and systematically describing the victims as al-Qaeda militants, regardless of the truth.

“Our entire village is angry at the government and the Americans,” a Yemeni villager named Mohammed told the Post. “If the Americans are responsible, I would have no choice but to sympathize with al-Qaeda because al-Qaeda is fighting America.”

It’s become almost trite to argue the continuities between Bush and Obama. But this week has been so detrimental to individual liberties and so favorable to never-ending, unaccountable secret war, that it’s hard to imagine we ever extricated ourselves from those dark days of post-9/11 tyranny.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 14, 2013 - 12:18pm PT
that it’s hard to imagine we ever extricated ourselves from those dark days of post-9/11 tyranny.


Did we?
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Jan 14, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
Not sure, but what do you have to say to Obama pretty much continuing the Bush years. Don't know what makes this guy so flawless in the eyes of so many here.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 14, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
Not sure, but what do you have to say to Obama pretty much continuing the Bush years. Don't know what makes this guy so flawless in the eyes of so many here.


I'd say there are too many ways that he's NOT continuing the Bush years. Yes, erosion of civil liberties worries me, as it should worry anyone. But anyone that wants to blame the end of America on this guy is smoking too much meth. He has fought with the biggest recession since the depression, fought to extricate us from two wars, brought us back out of the dark ages in global standing. He brings women, whites, Latinos, blacks, gays and more together in a way Bush never did. I don't think anyone said flawless. That's what I say.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 14, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
If anything, Obama is too soft. When dealing with idiots, sometimes you just need to tell them: MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY!
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Jan 14, 2013 - 12:49pm PT
Not saying he is causing the end of America, just contributing to it IMO. He is no different then the rest. Is there a time limit on how long it will all be Bushs' fault, or it could be 20 years from now and it's still his fault. Loved seeing how my paycheck went down this week after the lying sack of sh#t told me no higher taxes in the middle class. Funny how Bush got burned by the media when he proclaimed his "no new taxes" but the Messiah gets away with it no problem. I'm disgusted more by the apathy and worshiping of this imperfect human being more than the man himself. No different than those Bush bots who could not see Bush do any wrong, only this time you have the media ball cupping Obama all day long.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 14, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
Fattrad.....bring him back!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 14, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
DirtClaud,
Welcome to the Obama Haters Club.

You've got plenty of crazy co-members.

It will take a while to get your card processed. There are so many folks in Redville ahead of you.

Spend the time wisely and stock up on end of times supplies at ReturnOfTheSonDotCom.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Jan 14, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
How dare I post my opinion. Now I'm worse than Fattrad, you people are children sometimes.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 14, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
Who said you couldn't post your opinion?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 14, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
Im wondering when some will realize that Obama is Bush, in a different shade of skin..
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 14, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
I'm wondering when you will recognize that he's not.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 14, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
Can't say that I agree with you Ron.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 14, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
With Republicans opposing everything Obama is proposing, it is amazing how much he has actually accomplished.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 14, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
He said he would cut the deficit in half his first term, knowing very well what it was.. He has INCREASED it, and will more than likely use executive order to abolish the debt ceiling..He said he would close gitmo, and its busier than ever. He now wants increased debt without a decrease in spending. He FURTHERED the patriot act with the NDAA2013 laws. That defense bill also includes wording of a budget for an attack on Iran, so it seems he follows Bush tactics in illegal wars as well.. How does one pre-plan a budget for a "war" anyhow? He put in place the muslim brotherhood which he admits "working with" and yet that is the organization that threatens us daily and in every country they are in power, the results have been utter chaos. So the hatred for America grows just like it did under Bush and for good reason..,. Sorry,, but Bo is GB.. Just different epidermis.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Jan 14, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
Ok, I won't act like a bitch, your right Survival, I can post my opinion. I'll just be insulted if it doesn't fall in line with the liberal ST crowd. I can take it, don't get me wrong, otherwise I would not post. It's just that, all knowing, self righteous, we are right, you are wrong and we know that for a fact and would bet my life on it attitude, some of you have. If people don't agree with you, they are idiots, bottom line. Not really the way I prefer to live my life. The comparison to Fattrad is laughable. Though I liked his non-political side, he worshipped Bush and the GOP the way you guys worship Obama. I would say he is more like you guys than me. Anyways, back to the ball cupping . I'll leave Obummer alone so you all will feel better.
Just to stay on topic though I will say one of the worst fascists IMO was Pol Pot.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 14, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
To the extent that the Pol Pot regime had an ideology, it was nihilist. There were strong strains of nihilism in Nazi Germany also. Fascism really isn't an applicable concept for a largely pre-industrial state taken over by paranoid reactionaries.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 14, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
Dirt, I appreciate your reasoned posts and efforts at balance.

I for one have never called Obama perfect, or messiah or gawd or any such thing.

But I do feel the need to defend him against racist, conspiracy lunatics accusing him of trying to take over the country and have Rushmore replaced with an image of himself alone. Keep this in mind, I'm not speaking of you specifically when I say this.

I have a relative who has sent me mountains of email accusing him of abolishing the constitution, banning all private firearms, repainting Air Force One, Being born in Kenya, Being Muslim, Hating America, being the leader of a secret sect of muslims taking over the world, etc.

If you are a reasonable man who just wants to talk about right and wrong policy, I'm here for you.

If you are someone who believes that Obama loves America less than all previous presidents, or is part of some nefarious plot, I wash my hands.
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Jan 14, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
Than what was Lenin? Perhaps I'm ignorant to this, but I was under the impression Russia was pretty non-industrial prior to Lenin/Stalin. Of course it all depends on how you view Lenin. Some would say he was a great Socialist leader, I would call him a fascist who murdered many in the name of Communism. I've read a number of books, articles that label Pol Pot as a fascist, but as I said, I might be ignorant on some facts here. By no means am I a History intellectual.

Edit: Response appreciated Survival.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 14, 2013 - 01:42pm PT
hey you two get a room eh!? ;^)


Survival,, in Egypt they are really lovin that brotherhood! KNOTT! They wonder why Obama would help put them in charge. Can you imagine being them?
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Jan 14, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
Don't know what makes this guy so flawless in the eyes of so many here.

Nobody ever claimed he was flawless - that's just tired old strawman that some folks use to dumb-down the discussion.

I do say that he is a competent executive whose values are mostly aligned with my own, and by far the best available alternative for the job.



I don't have a problem with anyone posting their opinion, but I do take issue when they try to post mine.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Jan 14, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
[...] Russia was pretty non-industrial prior to Lenin/Stalin.


Russia was very much a participant in the industrial revolution, and the conditions that arose from industrialization were a big contributor to the unrest that led to the communist revolution.

Lenin was a thug and a tyrant, but not many political scientists would call him a fascist.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 14, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
Survival,, in Egypt they are really lovin that brotherhood! KNOTT! They wonder why Obama would help put them in charge. Can you imagine being them?

Ummmm, believe it or KNOTT ron, they actually VOTED them in.
I wasn't aware that Obama put them in charge by himself.
Please tell me how he did that, and what it has to do with my previous post.

I'll go get ready at the handwashing station.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 14, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
cmon man,, seriously?? Obama TOTALLY backed that new regime,, and NOW there are nothing but riots over said regime.. Google is yur friend- and its has tons of info on this i dont care to repeat..Hey it also wored well in Libya. You remember ,, dead US folk and all...
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 14, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
Yeah, thanks for the non-information ron.

It also worked out well for us in Iran and Vietnam and a few other places.
I'm thinking I remember a few dead Americans in Vietnam too, could be wrong.

*sigh* I guess they can't all be our puppet forver....sorry.

You should think about getting your rabies booster bro!
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Jan 14, 2013 - 02:03pm PT

In the 1920's; when he came to power in 1924 he proposed the five-year plan. from 1928-1932 the first five year plan turned russia from being agricultural to being industrial very rapidly. Stalin wanted russia to be at the same level or if possible in advance of the military, economic, factory, etc technology of all other countries.However, ending the agricultural economy led to the soviet famine in 1932. If Stalin had not industrialized the soviet union by 1941, they would have not had the weaponry ( t-34 tanks, artillery, etc ) to fight the Nazis and far more Russians would have died in world war 2, possibly all of them. In world war one russia did not have modern weaponry and they were slaughtered in battle due to the Germans having far better weapons, Stalin was angry of this.

Some would disagree about when Russia became Industrialized.
Guess this discussion could cover another thread.

Edit: Who tried to post an opinion for you DaveK? I would think people would get called out right away for that here.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 14, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
doood ive posted all that before,, many times and YOU know that.


Your fingers work just like mine, and your mouse will click on stuff just like mine. I dont care to repeat myself three or four times over. I know the memory is among the first to go,, but sheeesh!;-)


Nam= Afghanistan in many ways doesnt it? We declare the "war won" by some magic date yet NOTHING has changed there ..

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 14, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
You're right Ron, I've already won this argument many times before.

No need for new information.

I declare victory.

Again.


BWA HA HA HA hahahahahaaaa!!!!!


Consolation breasts for showing up though!
( * )( * )
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Jan 14, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
dirt,

Someone suggested that I thought Obama was flawless.

I don't remember who it was.

You are correct that Russia did not keep pace with the Germans and other countries during the first part of the 20th century. They were industrialized, but not nearly as much as the US, England, Germany, etc. They definitely got their sh#t together during WWII though.

No doubt, Stalin was an evil dictator - only a few "useful idiots" would argue otherwise.

I've learned that there are a lot of Russians today who have a favorable opinion of Stalin, on balance. The way they see it: He won the war, and and that trumps anything else he did.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 14, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
Ron, up thread you stated that the Federal deficit has INCREASED under President Obama

Link please?

Since you know this as a fact and not just because you "want" it to be true, prove it

yeah, I am calling you out, again, Ron

prove your own lying crap

state the deficit the day PRESIDENT Obama took office and state what it is NOW
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jan 14, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
Norton,, in this country,, it is INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty...KNOTT the other way around.. And you should know by now that your opinion of me matters as about as much as hedges does.

Why do you think he now wants to abolish the debt ceiling. shyts and giggles?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 14, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
And my favorite fascist, is a dead fascist

So, Regan then.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Mar 11, 2014 - 10:26am PT
Benito Amilcare Andrea Mussolini...
Benito Amilcare Andrea Mussolini e Clara Petacci.  Milano, April 1945....
Benito Amilcare Andrea Mussolini e Clara Petacci. Milano, April 1945.

Credit: mouse from merced
Hands down.
Firing squad of partisans, not Guthrie's guitar, did this to Il Duce a...
Firing squad of partisans, not Guthrie's guitar, did this to Il Duce and his henchmen.
Credit: mouse from merced

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/benito-mussolini-executed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E06xUsfZmLQ

The "Founding Fathers," meaning the politicos and the Sons of Liberty and their ilk, may have been radicals, certainly.

But in the southern states, in Georgia and the Carolinas in particular, the Tories and the revolutionaries gave each other no quarter and raided and ruined anyone they pleased with whom they had a beef, both sides using the same excuse of patriotism.

Dirty deeds to which we pay little attention because they do not "fit in" with the popular or establishment-approved history are often ignored and even hidden, sometimes with intent.

Misinformation/disinformation is a tool of fascism, BELIEVE IT OR NOT!

Speaking for myself, I won't get suckered into talking about our current involvements in world affairs--they are too complex and I am not paid to work that hard. I simply know that history always repeats, eventually.
I hope and pray it never needs to come to this sort of thing here in my homeland.

So far as I know, our trains run pretty well here, like they once did in Italy.


That is "Reagan." Ray Gun.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Mar 11, 2014 - 01:29pm PT
Mussolini had a certain flair, but Goerhing could have easily upstaged him - or his wife - on the fashion runway.

American fascists like Cheney, by comparison, exude all the sex appeal of a Xerox machine. They leave so much on the table, style-wise.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 11, 2014 - 04:07pm PT
The digressions of this thread have been amusing. I think Mouse and Riley, among others, actually have a grasp on "fascism," at least. The near worship of the state -- central to fascism -- seems to get forgotten by many.

I'm also a bit amused by the references to American Executive Branch members. Pejoratives aside, aggrandizing the power of the Executive Branch is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for fascism, but while we're on that subject, I wish we could move the discussion of signing statements and executive orders from quantity to quality. No Constitutional scholar I know disputes the right of the POTUS to issues as many executive orders as he or she sees fit. Lots of scholars and others, however, dispute the right to issue any such order that contradicts explicit statutory provisions.

John
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Mar 12, 2014 - 01:35am PT
fas·cism [fash-iz-uhm]
noun
1.
( sometimes initial capital letter ) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

Tito of Yugoslavia & Hussein of Iraq

Total whack jobs. The "civilized" world failed to notice that it took men like this to sit on top of the powder keg countries they ruled. Removing them was like pulling the pin on a grenade.

Men who rise to levels of power like this should never be killed or treated like common criminals. There is something metaphysical about their rise and ability to hold on to power. They should be carefully removed and sent to a remote prison island like Napoleon was. That way, if all hell breaks loose, you could put them back. At least the threat of putting them back could help stablize the area.


Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 12, 2014 - 01:41am PT
Tito was a veritable Mother Teresa compared to Saddam.
overwatch

climber
Mar 12, 2014 - 03:24am PT
Koba the Dread
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