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verticalbound
Trad climber
Anchorage
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 9, 2013 - 05:01pm PT
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Whats the opinion on home made aiders? obviously ill get the " aiders are cheap just buy them" and YER GONNA DIE, etc. Really though I've got a machine capable of a mean bartack stitch and want to make my own custom ladders....
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Sew 'em. Show 'em.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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We use to tie out own. Sign of my advanced age!
Peace
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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We use to tie out own. Sign of my advanced age!
What do you mean "used to," Ron?
;>)
John
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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Chris is right about most of your time being spent standing in aiders. That being said, I have sewn my own aiders and they were by far my faves. Only problem I can see is that if you're new to aid climbing then you probably don't know what works best. This leads to the old trial and error process. By the end you've got ten sets of aiders. Could be worse.
GET HEINOUS!
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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What I started with, circa 1983, was 1-inch, flat (non-tubular webbing). I think a 30-some-foot-long piece. Then an elaborate system of tying 5 or 6 loops on one side, just the right size, no kinks or twists, and ending up with a single large knot and clip-in loop at the top. All basic frost knots, they tighten up pretty quick. Then a sub-aider (single, shoulder-length-ish, loop, for clipping into while jumaring. This attaches to the big top loop.
Huge improvement is to use 6-inch lengths of tubular 1-inch webbing, threaded over the flat webbing and located/preplaced in crucial, high-wear places (like where your feet go and the clip-in loop). These act as stiffeners to hold the loops open.
Care with getting the loops identical on each aider pays off. My first pair worked for many years. Even made a second pair before creeping laziness and wealth corrupted me and I actually bought some.
Really, the Chouinard/BD 6-steps aiders I've used ever since are no better, I'm just lazier. In some ways homemade ones are better, because the actual webbing has to wear throughout before the aiders need replacing (stitched ones, I start worrying about wear on the stitching and retire them sooner). Never felt the need to buy the more elaborate versions. They all do much the same job. Secret to comfort is to find shoes that are rigid side to side, yet light.
YMMV....
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Ditto what T Hocking said. Every route (edit: I've done) on the Captain, Half Dome, etc., was done with knotted aiders. I tried a pair of sewn ones but they just didn't fit right and it was awkward to clip in at waist level with a fifi, where you spend a lot of your time. Ended up tweaking my lower back and I ended up sticking with the knotted ones.
I you do sew them, make sure you do it right or you'll be half way up something with a blown aider and little means to fix it. I made homemade daisys for my first trip up the Captain. I blew a couple of tacks but fixed that just by knotting it. I don't think you'll be able to do that with a sewn aider. Also make sure that the top of the aider is pretty much level with your waist when standing in your third loop so you can use a fifi comfortably.
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Grampa
climber
from SoCal
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BITD we tied our own aiders. The biggest challenge was tying a loop that would stay open enough to get your foot into. The new "ladder" type aiders seem to solve this problem.
The only reason we did not buy sewn ladder aiders BITD, was because they did not exist.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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We use to tie out own.
Ya mon. Getting the steps adjusted to the proper size was an exercise in madness. How uncomfortable do you wanna be in your top step?
I used a metal spreader bar for my top step to keep it open.
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Michelle
Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
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I went through a phase where I wanted to be retro. Tie my own aiders, sleep in a hammock, climb the East Face of Washington Column, etc. I got over it.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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IF you choose to go home-made, knots are the way to go, I reckon.
DIY sewing? Only if you really know what you are doing. Remember you will be relying, 100 per cent, on these at times, on a wall. All eggs in one basket, so to speak.
Stitching is great when new but it's impossible to know how weak it's getting after some wear and tear....there's enough to worry about up there.
The flat webbing is key, as it's stiffer, though I'm not sure how easy is it find any more (?). And the little sleeves on the footrest bits really do hold the loops out, so you can get your feet into them.
Like here. Sleeve bits are blue:
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Great lead hammer there Crunch!
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verticalbound
Trad climber
Anchorage
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2013 - 08:22pm PT
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well before I go out and buy webbing/materials I made a practice aider with some scrap webbing i had...
p.s. the medical tape covers a metal spreader bar.
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verticalbound
Trad climber
Anchorage
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2013 - 08:43pm PT
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final product would be largely more pleasing aesthetically, but the machine i have can do 1000 stitch bartack per 1.2 inches
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Onewhowalksonrocks
Mountain climber
portland, Maine
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I just figured that store bought aiders were for those who didn't know how to tie them. You know the "special climbers" in the short bus.
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marty(r)
climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
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Etriers
The webbing etrier should be designed to suit the size of the individual, and the type of climbing he will be doing. A few points to consider in their construction are mentioned here.
First, in order to be of greatest utility the top loop of the etrier should be positioned to provide as high level a step as possible while still keeping the free carabiner barely within reach for use as a handhold. Meeting this condition will allow the top loop to be used over 95% of the time. On low ange faces the very maximum reach is obtained by using a Hero Loop clipped into the etrier carabiner.
Today, as more and more climbs are being pushed free and artificial pitches are being followed on Jumars, extra consideration should be given to the ease of carrying. A short etrier carries easily over the shoulders. An etrier with two large loops deploys quickly when the top loop is placed around the neck. Experience has shown that tall individuals climb most efficiently in large loops whereas climbers with short legs find a longer etrier with smaller loops advantageous.
To construct the webbing etrier, cut the proper length of webbing. One inch tubular or solid webbing is normally used but for special cases where weight is of primary importance 9/16" or 1/2" may be employed. Thirteen feet are required for the standard three-loop etrier. A lenth of 10 feet 10 inches makes a good two step etrier.
Form a large loop with a 9" overlap and tie the Frost not--a simple Overhand knot over the triple thickness--to fashion the carbiner loop. Form individual loops with overhand knots leaving about 4 inches of eccentricity in the loops. While tightening the knots, first carefully by hand, then vigorously bouncing in every loop, maintaining a close check to ensure that the etrier dimensions, particularly the loop eccentricity, are maintained. All three of the etriers used by one individual should be the same size."
Coonyard has spoken.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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We use to tie out own. Sign of my advanced age!
dittos
Crunch has it.
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Jonnnyyyzzz
Trad climber
San Diego,CA
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Jan 10, 2013 - 05:20am PT
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Sew them up. I've made some I like better than any others I've seen.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Jan 10, 2013 - 05:40am PT
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Yup. Tied our own from 20 feet or so of webbing. That said my Forrest sewn aiders were a significant step forward. Those damn knots in the tied aiders were a pain.
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Jan 10, 2013 - 05:56am PT
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Those remind me of my first ones, car seat-belt material from the scrapyard rules!
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Jan 10, 2013 - 06:05am PT
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Whoa Johnnnyyyzzz
D-LUX
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jan 10, 2013 - 08:10am PT
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The Frost Knot is cheap. Sewing sh#t you don't need is a waste of time and money unless you can afford to waste your trust fund...
The trouble we all seemed to have had with the Frost knots was that in order to tie them in the right spot with the right cinch, you had to tie the aider up loosely enough so you could re-adjust the knot so it wasn't irritating to the foot. Positioning is crucial. Once you got it, you could pretty much tell it was correct. Slack is adjusted into the bottom step. Real tough to have a long first loop?---Nope. It doesn't hurt a thing to have this slight mismatch of sizes in the loops.
Then there's deciding how many steps you require, three or four, and how about them sub-aiders? For those I used heavy 9/16" webbing myself, and clipped them into the biner on the top of the ETRIER.
Trial and error is a big part of the adventure of climbing. Good fortune in the wall game.
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Gunkie
Trad climber
East Coast US
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Jan 10, 2013 - 09:00am PT
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I'd buy them from wherever Tom Frost got his...
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Jan 10, 2013 - 09:12am PT
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Go for it. I strongly encourage you to use a spreader bar (1/2" PVC, pop rivets and washers). Also, read up on step stiffener options (doubled webbing, weed whip line). I use homemade ones that are out of 9/16" with an integrated shorty ring tree for use with Russian Aiders.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jan 10, 2013 - 09:31am PT
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I tied my first pair in about '75. I believe there are instructions in advanced rockcraft. Though I have various commercial ones, due to unseen circumstances ( theft you know who you are) I had occasion to jug a line last month using said 37 yr old home tied aider. Worked like a champ!
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Jan 10, 2013 - 09:46am PT
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1" flat webbing +1
Enhanced!
For the foot loops I'd insert the flat webbing into a 6" section of tubular webbing on each rung. Color coded with tubular scraps, of course!
The enhanced water knot used three sections of flat webbing to form the biner loop at top. The knot was a nice thing to grab on to when launching into the top step. Once I used toe aider to tow a car to make the knot nice a tight.
The top loop (above the knot) would be enhanced with the flat webbing inserted a short section of tubular 1" webbing (for durability).
Then you buy some sewn aiders (strictly from commercial), and you'll never go back. But at least you can boast about having grown your own.
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Jan 10, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
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I pretty much did as the book suggested, 1" flat with overhand knots topped by the Frost knot. But we thought we'd be cool and add a 2 step sub-aider out of 1/2" tubelar.
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Scrubber
climber
Straight outta Squampton
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Jan 10, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
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I built aiders and other sewn climbing gear as a job for five years, and can say it's not too hard. The biggest caveat is that you really need to have a machine that's up to the task if you want to do it well. You could destroy your mom's old Sears machine trying, but you'll just frustrate yourself.
Soft webbing like tubular 1" is pretty easy to sew. The stiffer stuff like the flat webbing you find on back pack straps can be very difficult for a home machine to manage once it's two or three layers thick.
You also need the right sized needles and quality thread of a decent size. Polyester or nylon thread size 69 would be a good place to start. this is most commonly available to joe public like you or me as extra-strong upholstery thread at most sewing supply places. We used 69 thread on ultralight alpine aiders, and super burly 128 thread on daisys and regular aiders, as well as slings and quickdraws. You probably won't be able to easily buy thread this large, nor be able to run it on a home machine.
Most home sewing machines won't be able to do a good bartack in webbing. They're just not powerful enough. The bartackers we used weighed about three hundred pounds and would do a 48 stitch tack in about 1 second. Even if the tip of the needle broke off! which was terrifying)Here's a similar one:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
If you can't make a good bartack (three or four times straight stitching across the webbbing, then covered with zig-zag stitching) the the box-and-cross will be your highest strength alternative. (sew twice around a square the same height as the width of your webbing, then twice across both diagonals.) Very strong old military web technique. Here's a video of a specialized machine doing one, but it's easily replicatable on a regular machine:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Hope this helps. I agree it's very satisfying to make something yourself. I would reccomend the ladder style with a small pvc spreader bar at the top. Step stiffeners are a nice touch too. Make a set out of cheap webbing first to see if you've got the dimensions where you want them, then do a good set or two. Never take your dirty sandy webbing back onto your sewing machine. It will kill it.
K
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MassiveD
Trad climber
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Nov 25, 2014 - 09:42pm PT
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For what it is worth you can get 128 thread, even up to the 400s, on ebay 24/7. Not that as you say you can run it in most home machines. You can get a bartacker there also, but it will cost a lot.
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dindolino32
climber
san francisco
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Nov 25, 2014 - 11:52pm PT
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Yep, our first few small walls were tied frost knots. I added some plastic tubing and additional knots to keep it from sliding around. Worked descent but was pretty heavy. I also made a pair of adjustable steps for just the follower. I made a super big foot plate that was comfy to stand in and used a munter mule to tie off the cord at the desired height. It was pretty good, but I ended up buying some for the weight. Sewing them would be rad.
You aren't really trusting your life to it like a rope or harness, so I say go for it and test it out on a 10 pitch wall first.
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Bill Mc Kirgan
Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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Nov 26, 2014 - 03:51am PT
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I made a set of 5-step aiders out of a 60-foot length of webbing.
The webbing was getting worn and I cut it in half one day and followed the instructions from the article Ed linked, above. It took a long time getting the knots organized and fairly even before I snugged them down.
To help keep the loops open I added plastic strips cut from an old milk jug and Gorilla-taped them to the lower part of each loop and wrapped it as neatly as I could.
It's helpful to step into and take some weight off the harness while taking photos of people climbing at the local crag.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Nov 26, 2014 - 06:29am PT
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We use to tie out own. Sign of my advanced age!
dittos
Same here. When I bought my first Forrest sewn aiders it was like night and day.
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Edge
Trad climber
Betwixt and Between Nederland & Boulder, CO
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Nov 26, 2014 - 06:49am PT
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A former climbing partner of mine sewed his first set of aiders by hand back in 1980 or so-abouts...
He likely tested them first in a tree in the Granite State before carting them cross country, but the trial by fire occurred on the East Butt of Middle Cathedral. Charlie's belayer relays the story of watching him cheat his way through the short bolt ladder when he heard a rather disconcerting creak, followed by pop, Pop, POP! as the sewn steps exploded sequentially in descending order from Heaven to Earth, leaving ole Charlie three feet lower and a bit freaked.
Allegedly the route was completed after the belayer regained his composure following an extended laugh-in.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Nov 26, 2014 - 09:10am PT
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^^
and that is how screamers were born.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 26, 2014 - 09:23am PT
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Would you use homemade climbing shoes?
If I could as easily make a pair of climbing shoes as honed to my own proclivities as I can so easily tie a pair of aiders to my own lengths and wants, I'd do it in a heartbeat!
That being said, I'm a lazy old man and generally use commercial aiders these days.
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Nov 26, 2014 - 12:11pm PT
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Ed -
If it is the "Tom" Frost knot, that name may have been applied after it had been in use for some time. Gallwas, Hemming and I were tying up our pathetic one-step aiders with surplus 1" tubular webbing in 1952, and that just seemed like the most logical knot to use. I wasn't aware of a name for it.
Maybe Tom can tell us?
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