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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 2, 2006 - 01:28pm PT
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Author:
taco bill
Trad climber
From: boulder, co Hey Dirt, OT...but with the drift, if you have good graffiti removal techniques pleases share them as some asshat in boulder canyon offered up this tribute (which in principle I can support, but am pretty pissed about the canvas choice) on Happy Hour crag.
Taco bill, here yo ugo:
The products are removall 330 and it's cousin, 320 if I remember correctly.
They are environmentally safe.
One is spray on, the other is paint on, I ahve used both, both work, both are tedious, both are expensive, the process takes time, but works very well.
What you do:
Low powered water spray. a LOW powered pressure washer if the rock is hard enough, back pack sprayer if unable to get accesd for the P-washer, any sort of hand sprayer will work (but it takes a while (the back pack sprayers used in lawn care are one example).
YOu can buy Removall in spray cans, (expensive but good for places with small graffiti or difficult access) or on 5 gallon tubs and use a paint sprayer.
Teh point is, whether you pait it on or spray it on, it must remain gooey-- it must not dry out.
This means repeated coats for several hours in very bad cases.
After teh product has worked, (more on how in a second) you Gently spray it off with very light water pressur, from an angle, not directly or perpendicular to the rock. (why in a bit)
this takes all day. if done corectly, yo uwil lbe amazed. I ahve thoguht of strting a business to do this, but as I am a bit under the weather now, it ain't going to happen, and besides, nobody really takes the issue seriously enough in my opinion. but maybe they will some day.
OK, the theory ( well not just a theory, it's been shown to be true):
This product works by lifting the PIGMENT AND binder. it does not dissolve the binder like strippers, it gets under the binder and pigment, and bubbles it off mechanically. This takes a long time.
Graffiti with more binder is easier to get off that than that with less.
old is harder to get off than new, because hte binder fades but the pigment remains, in the pores of the rock.
flat paint is harder than gloss paint , becasue gloss has more binder,and the glossy crap too, and sits on top better, while flat has a different binder that soaks in more. UGH! Still the treament works, it just may take more applications.
YO UNEED A LOT OF PATIENCE AND DETERMINATION TO GET THIS RIGHT.
IF the graffiti had been blasted with a high powered pressure washer, pigment may have been drivin deep into the rock, and these shadows may never come out. SO, NO HIGH POWERED P-WASHERS, gotit? Good!
Also , HPPwashers will fvck up the rock badly, chipping it and etching it. You can dig holes in concrete with a HPPwasher, son;t use one to remove graffiti from rock NO MATTER WHO tellse you it is ok, OK???
I can post pics of test patches on old and new Graffiti, removed with the spray can version of removall , on hard sandstone. Did this with the city forester of Hoover, AL, in MRP.
One day when we have good enforcement and houses nearby with neighbors to report a$$hjoles spraying, we will remove all the graffiti with these methods that we have tested.
BTW, it had been several years now, the product is truly safe, the rock has not suffered at all, and I am sold on it.
We also used the brushon stuff at sandrock with some success, but the fvcking redneck 'artists' saw a new canvas and re-painted the place within 6 months.
They should all be in prison, strung up by their thumbs in my opinion.
I think that's about it, if you have questions or I left something out, let me know.
I think I will post this to it's own thread, and maybe others woudl like to know about this but they might not see it here.
Curt Johnson
HEHE left off certain info cause I curse a lot, and don't want anyone to get in trouble for it. My opinions on how to deal with those who make graffiti are mine and mine alone, and have no relation to the fine city of Hoover and their views and policies what so ever.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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We once rented a compressor and sand blaster, to remove graffiti at the Smoke Bluffs in Squamish. The area has to be road accessible, or nearly so, though you can use an extension hose to get some distance. (Pressure drop issues.) This works best on hard rock - in this case, granodiorite. It didn't cause any damage at all, and even may have roughed up the rock a little.
There's a special fine sand that you use in the blaster. Plus you get to wear a respirator and really cool space suit thingy.
The movie people did some filming at the Bluffs a few months ago, at an obscure cliff. They were told they couldn't paint it, so instead they sandblasted the whole thing to a clean uniform grey. Next time, we'll point them to a more popular cliff - when it comes to Squamish and vegetation, the trees are definitely winning. Rain forest, eh?
Anders
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2006 - 02:05pm PT
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DO not use a sand blaster, it will change the rock, as you just said, rough it up.
The idea is, as always, put it like it was before it was painted, not to make a climbing gym.
It goes without saying that soft rock is NOT ever a candidate for sand blasting ,but I'll say it anyway.
Sand blaster = bad.
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taco bill
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Thanks Curt,
I passed the info along and look forward to seeing it in action.
adam
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Sand blaster = maybe, just maybe, ok. Possibly better than alternatives, but careful consideration.
Luckily graffiti people usually can't walk too good. Except the Anasazi/native art ones.
Anders
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2006 - 03:20pm PT
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IF you can get the stuff in for the blaster, you can get the paint sprayer and low power Pwasher in too, and do NO damage to anything, and the rock will be exactly as it was before the paint went on.
I can see I need to post those pics, give me a few minutes.
All pics are after one application. We were in a hurry, more time or another treatment should take out the ghost pigment or shadow.
The darker walls are smoked because idiots also build fires in the cave. there is at least one V10 or 11 in this cave, and several other good problems, Including a very nice V4 that goes upside down across the roof with a clever move that I could do before I broke my elbow, LOL. I need Curt or Bob to come show me how to do the V10 ;)
Since this is the internet, and people like Locker abound, I should mention that The Little gragffiti free rectangular patches in the middle of the artwork are the test patches.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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matty
Big Wall climber
Valencia, CA
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Good luck with that one, HA! Sometimes it's like a sinking boat where water comes in faster than you can pump it out.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2006 - 05:53pm PT
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Repeat vandalism is a big problem.
Unless you can be sure that SOMEONE will enforce the no spray paint on the F-ing rocks ideal, you are giving a new generation of 'artistes' a fresh canvas.
What should happen to these people, I really can't talk about any more.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 20, 2006 - 11:21am PT
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Another shameless bump, bacuse this stuff is not easy to find out, and it really works
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Jun 20, 2006 - 11:57am PT
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Apparently DIE has no respect for the efforts of FAs (First Artists).
Locker, yes. Dean was there, and it was legal at the time.
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Mimi
climber
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Bump for Dirt and graffiti removal.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2009 - 11:37am PT
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thnaks MIM!
Update on the stes pics: still going strong after at least 5 years. NO rock deterioration whatsoever from the removal.
REmoval is much safer to be around that the old style strippers, which if you get any in your eye god frobid or on your skin even you WLILL want to flush immediatly with lost of water and hit he emergesncy room for the eye if much got in there.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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After reading the posts on using the current safe strippers and the required time and patience, I have a few comments. I have extensive experience in the stripping of paint from metal and wood and that carries over to rock somewhat. Sandblasting will remove any paint, but it will also weather the rock and leave a obvious cleaned patch, plus the neccessary gear that it requires seems to limit it. My thought is that many people want to remove graffiti in a quick and safe manner. Safe strippers are great as they are not to caustic and no bad fumes but man do they take forever as well as tons of elbow grease. What I use is a combination of two chemicals. The first is called Jasco Epoxy stripper(make sure you use the Epoxy version). It is bad ass and says it contains chemicals known to cause Cancer in the state of CA. But it will pull the hair off a yak! It is a gel paste and you apply it with a brush. It works almost immediately, within 1-2 minutes you should be able to lightly scrape the paint off the rock if it is smooth or wipe it with a rag. You should have a plastic garbage bag to throw your waste products in and to work clean. Once you wipe the bulk of the paint off, you can raise the rest of it with a small wire brush and then wipe some more, utilizing some water OR another cool product called EZ Way stripper which is a liquid flushing agent and can come in a spray bottle. Wear long sleeve shirts and pants and wear eye protection. If any of the strippers gets on your skin, you will want to wipe it off quickly. If it gets in your eye, you are in serious trouble. Using a wire brush tends to make the chemical fling everywhere, so you have to be aware and very careful of what you do, and eye protection is a must. Again, this procedure is for people who do not have allot of time to remove paint. It is very fast and effective and with the proper precaution can be done safely and with minimum collateral damage to the rock.
The only graffiti I do not recommend using this on is those shaped in the form of lighting bolts... :)
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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The following also works, when necessary and feasible.
Not necessarily always appropriate, but an option.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2009 - 03:42pm PT
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advoating sand blasting is JUT MORONIC.. I have wrtten the definitive method, it's been tested and applied, works like a charm BUT you ahve to do it right, ans STLL people advocate sanblasting and nasty chemicals.
Here's wahgts wrong with the nasty chemicals and brushes:
YOU runn the reisk of push pigment into the rock's pores, adn then you ahve a deeply embedded shadow that is almost impossible to remove, adn you ahd certainly gooten the binder off, and that makes any future attemps with any product MUCH harder.
sand blasting, for the 1000nth time, I NEVER good for rock if you care about the rock. it is a disater on sandstone, as it cuts into the hard patina that ou westerners depend on. It makes the rock loke like it's been messed wiht a LO. It polishes granite.
A pox on the pro blasting people.
While I'm at it, just say not to hot high power pressuwashing too. this is a nother favorite try that is totally wrong. Again you are going to embedd pigment deep into the rock, and then you really ahve trouble.
GRRRR
DO it RIGHT or don't do it.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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I did not advocate sand blasting but I don't think you are correct Mr. Dirt in the eye. Depending on the sand blaster used, the grit of the sand, and the ability of the operator. Paint can be removed with nary a trace. The problem is the equipment involved is large, awkward, and heavy. The problem is not that sandblasting is not a good option in some circumstances for in some areas it may be the BEST option. it is enviromentally friendly, quick, and if used lightly like a brush stroke, paint can be eradicated and the rock returned to normal without removal of the complete patina, but it takes a gentle operators hand and the right fine grit.
On the subject of stripping paint. Dirt in the eye, eco friendly strippers are safer but they are not always the best solution. Removal of paint from cracks is easily accomplished with a dental pick or other, similar to stripping a piece of oak where the paint has a tendency to stay in the grain. Your method may work fine, but it is for people that have lots of time. Not everyone has that time or wants to put that time into graffiti removal on some rock in the woods or elsewhere. A quick fast effective strip sometimes is a great option whether you like it or not. Again, experience and cleaniness in your work determine the final outcome.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2009 - 04:06pm PT
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well you area just wrong.
People are not only more liekly to take the esiest way, they go with they they think over what has been shown to work beter for any number of bad reasons.
Endless fight with people who remove graffiti from building and think thier favorite way will do just fine on rock.
BAH. Go ahead, screw it up.
They best argument you have is similar to claiming 2 + 2 is 5.
STFU if you have no experience with the GOOD method I'm talking about, which you don't, and I do.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Considering that our local (granitic) rocks were thoroughly ground by ice up to about 10,000 years ago, and that since then they've become eroded by rain, snow and vegetation, and often covered in vegetation, a little sandblasting isn't necessarily a bad thing. It almost restores them to their natural condition. I'll see if I can find a recent picture of the area we worked on, but it only took a few years for a bit of weathering and lichens to pretty much conceal it.
The area was and is very highly used, both by climbers, residents, and partiers/graffitiers. The picture shows perhaps 5% of what we removed. I'm not advocating indiscriminate sandblasting, but at times it may be appropriate. Given that a compressor is needed, you can probably never do it more than 50 or 100 m from a road anyway.
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