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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jan 12, 2013 - 09:23am PT
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hoyle was certainly a personality--probably worth getting a good biography on him--any recommendations?
his take on evolution seems to be that he finds too much serendipity to ascribe it solely to "random", multiplied by an infinity of time. perhaps his remark about the triple alpha was made in passing, but it does seem to indicate some "special treatment" for carbon. the nice thing about your posts, ed, is that they're made in your own words, far more educative than the barrage of dumps and links we usually get on here. i'm still carrying around what you had to say about dimensionality.
hoyle offered a remarkable metaphor anent "random" evolution. he said it would be the equivalent of a tornado hitting a junkyard and leaving a 747 behind. he seemed to have become a proponent of panspermia, an idea which was also attractive to francis crick. and some have called him the atheist of intelligent design.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 12, 2013 - 10:08am PT
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Clearly Hoyle didn't really understand evolution as that famous metaphor shows a complete misunderstanding of it. Only the first part of evolution is random. There is nothing random about the second part, the part where natural selection comes in to play. It is unpredictable, but anything but random. Sheesh, Darwin understood that in the 1850s!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jan 12, 2013 - 10:31am PT
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it's refreshing to have a polish fellow telling the rest of the world how dumb it is.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Jan 12, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
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Hear, hear, for "extra horny" after fifty.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 12, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
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ok, so about this "calculation" of the likelihood of something happening...
here's an exercise for the readers, don't dwell too deeply yet into its meaning....
how would you calculate the likelihood of the state of the universe in the next second?
hint: Google says the age of the universe is roughly 4x10¹⁷ seconds
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Jan 12, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
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Not sure if I mentioned this before, but found this Dogma Debate to be informative and liberating:
http://www.spreaker.com/user/smalleyandhyso/30_evolution_explained
Download and play or just play from the page…. Fully explained, from single celled micros to multi-celled all the way to almost modern dude.
This is a podcast featuring Rachel Brown that answers many "Christian questions" as posed by a ridiculous Christian website, I'm sure gobe has it bookmarked
You can thank me later
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jan 12, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
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excellent thread. I have nothing to contribute so will refrain from posting further, except for this
I like the idea that birds are dinosaurs
me too
please continue....
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 12, 2013 - 03:37pm PT
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So was that polish line referring to ME, TB? You're starting to wub me the wong way...
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 12, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
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"Sarge...who says I'm dumb?"
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Jan 12, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
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It is interesting how Lamarc’s ideas have resurfaced with the advance of epigenetics... which, of course, is some vindication for Lamarc.
Hold your horses...
http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2013/01/12/more-puffery-about-epigenetics-and-my-usual-role-as-go-to-curmudgeon/
"Well, a lot of far-fetched stuff has the theoretical potential to revolutionize the study of evolutionary biology, including the possibility that the DNA of any species is transcribed only when there’s a plant within 100 miles." Jerry Coyne
"This superb article by Jerry Coyne deserves the very widest attention." Richard Dawkins
How timely...
"Although I’m a skeptic, and seen as a diehard supporter of neo-Darwinism, I think that an objective observer would agree that that that current paradigm is working pretty well. I haven’t yet heard the guns and shouts of revolutionaries on the horizon." Jerry Coyne, 12 jan 2013
Maybe this is too boring, esp for a saturday, eh? Back to boobs? :)
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 12, 2013 - 04:36pm PT
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Been thinking the same thing, moosedrool. Poor Lamarc. Epigenetics is a bit of a game changer.
A book I've read that had a big influence on my thinking about the evolution of humans is 'Eco Homo', by Noel T. Boaz. The book explains that very large changes in brain size took place in hominids over the Pleistocene, which was a time of extreme climate change (four ice ages along with the in-between times). The author argues that the relationship is causal, that rapid climate change provided the enviromental pressure that ultimately led to rapid evolution in hominids. I'd always assumed that the environmetal pressure worked by a combination of there being phenotypic solutions to the environmental pressure (duh!) and the greater killing off of individuals allowing the "solution" genes to show their mettle and become dominant in the population. Seems like epigenetics probably played a role in speeding up the whole process.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
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Yeah, just read that in the paper today. He couldn't possibly get everything right:)
Seems I read that he was also wrong about "what women want".
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jan 14, 2013 - 07:53am PT
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yonkers, i've apologized elsewhere for confabulating your ideas with moosedrool's, and likewise your personae along with them, but i see i should apologize further. the problem really lies in your choice of monnikers. i know a little bit about moose, somewhat less about donkeys, even less about a.a. milne, which i have perhaps mistakenly presumed to be behind this "eeyonkee" business. maybe it's your real last name, i dunno. certainly doesn't sound polish. i'm guessing, maybe, choctaw? to add to the confusion, moosedrool now seems to be telling us he's italian.
at the risk of drifting this important discussion, wiki offers the following quote from the author of winnie the pooh:
The Old Testament is responsible for more atheism, agnosticism, disbelief—call it what you will—than any book ever written; it has emptied more churches than all the counter-attractions of cinema, motor bicycle and golf course.[
i'll bet norton agrees with that.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jan 14, 2013 - 08:01am PT
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why, ed, dabbling in evolutionary psychology. there's a couple of profs at UCSB, married to each other, no less, who purport to champion this insightful approach to our caveman swiss army knife, the human mind. personally, i think that sex itself is one of the greatest arguments for the existence of god. a tantric guru i know calls it "the gift of the creator".
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 14, 2013 - 11:47am PT
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reading broadly = dabbling ?
really Tony, by now you've got to realize I try to read a lot... even though I'm just a simple high energy physicist...
...maybe if I had concentrated more narrowly I would have made a bigger contribution to my chosen field.
oh well
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Jan 14, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
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re: epigenetics & "epigenetics"
Fresh off the press...
http://www.wiringthebrain.com/2013/01/the-trouble-with-epigenetics-part-2.html
Wiring the Brain, 2013
Be there are be square, lol!
The trouble with "epigenetics."
http://www.wiringthebrain.com/2013/01/the-trouble-with-epigenetics-part-1.html
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Goes great with: "faith," "god," "spirit," "spirituality," also "free will," "determinism," also "socialism," also "epigenetics." Enjoy. :)
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jan 14, 2013 - 08:29pm PT
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the evolutionary psychologists have come up with a great explanation for the battle of the sexes. men and women have differing interests, due to the very nature of gender, for forwarding their personal genes into spacetime. because men can potentially have an almost unlimited number of offspring, they tend to be promiscuous. women, on the other hand, produce one sex cell per month. if they become impregnated, it'll take nine months to produce a child, followed by weaning. most women don't want to bang 'em out once a year, in spite of the papal imperative. so more is not better for a woman. they tend to be choosy. their best strategy for long-term gene forwarding is to find a quality partner who will shelter and provide so's the progeny can be successful.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 14, 2013 - 11:59pm PT
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how do you know if that seemingly reasonable scenario isn't just a retelling of the ways things are, Tony?
got data?
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