Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 23, 2012 - 09:21am PT
The Forest service is considering a proposal from a masonry contractor to remove 1500 tons of granite from Cloudburst canyon. (one of these days area) sounds like a smoke show in the making.
To which I am sure we are both quite pleased.
Thanks Ron I made $50 on your predictability.
Hey TFPTSD go lick a frozen lamp post.
Seriously now folks if this is important to you y'all best be getting up to date on this proposal and working through channels as early as possible. Let me mention that at one point Eldo was up for sale to a gravel company. Think how tragic that would have been?
Don't despair gentlemen. They will make new roads, which means easier access to the crags, They will take some rock out, but that's OK. It's just like remodeling, and for Kenny it means an opportunity to put up new routs!
But seriously, I will write to the Forest service to oppose this project.
Yep Kenny.. And just how is this going to be tallied?? By contract inspections with scales,, HUGE scales???
And can you see rock laden trucks pulling out of a somewhat BLIND turn with traffic zooming downhill? Minimal impacts?? Doubtful.. Not to mention those that will see that going on, and figure they too can nab some granite. Perhaps we should go do some indian signs on the rock there,, antique it so it looks viable,, then call the tribe..;-)
But seriously, we are looking at the END of this report,, as when the USFS does an EA or an EIS,, its all but a done deal...
THE ONLY chance we have is for GOOD PEOPLE to get up and write their disgust of this,,,TODAY!
If its where I think it is ( just downhill from Joyce's store and the CG), that's a pretty dangerous spot for dump trucks to be entering the flow of traffic.
Edit; from what I've been told, that north side is great for rock hounding. Like huge payout great.
Save Woodfords!
I'll sign a petition or letter Ron.
Actually there is a quarry right next to my little gem Cannibis Crag,
Hope they don't wanna F#ck with it!
Tad
Tad,, it will be better if each of us write the Carson Ranger District. Will make more of an impact if they receive e mails continually.
This whole thing isnt thought out very well. They are going to create essentially a quarry on one of the MAIN arteries through Alpine County, in a HIGH use recreation area, along a riparian zone..The road (hgwy88) is used by Bicycle events, motor cycle events, fishing events and climbing and camping..
From what i see the ONLY reason they have chosen the canyon is EASY ACCESS to the rock and fast exit out on a highway..
Here the climbers have been so diligent in creating trails as to not bother the surrounding lands,, and now,, some jackwagons will tear the shite out of it in an effort to rip out granite from that same land.
"extract up to 500 tons (~315 cubic yards) of granitic boulders annually, ranging from hand-size to three feet in length (approximately 1-2 pounds up to a ton)."
"Only hand-tools would be utilized to manage the rock. Only solitary rocks or those accessible by hand excavation would be available for collection."
Hell, I might even go out and volunteer... maybe get them to excavate some of the larger boulders and even out the landings a bit. You can't climb on anything <3' anyway.
"Enough rock debris would remain in place to stabilize slopes and deter erosion."
Provisions to ensure the above should be strongly emphasized in any letter. Cloudburst Canyon is a teetering pile of choss and the removal of one single 3' boulder could cause the entire canyon to gully out. No, just joking, but it could cause some serious gullying if the boulders are plucked out of the hillslope. If it creates a head cut it would seriously affect the stability of that loose pile of choss they call a "trail" that leads to OOTD.
Ive already sent a lengthy e mail to the addy Kenny posted. I will do the same with the Dist Ranger as well, as that is the signature required to see this through..
I don't understand you folks objecting to this proposal.The affected area is minimal; less than 4 acres, the extraction is limited to free (unattached to bedrock) boulders less tham 3 feet in diameter, only hand tools will be used, actually 500 tons/yr and a total of 1500 tons is miniscule, really. This sounds like not much more than collection of small rocks that would otherwise naturally self trundle onto the hwy. within a few decades anyway.Are you guys suggesting starting another friends of anti-capitalism which would be nothing more than advancement of bleeding heart liberal causes? Ron think about and investigate more before you act, if you will.
I'm fine with it, as long as a QUALIFIED geomorphologist ensures the necessary grade control elements are left intact and/or stabilized.
500 tons annually is about 200-250 cubic yards. Say they are going down 10' (removing the upper 2-3 boulders of that size), that's about 75 square yards, or about 700 sq feet of area... or about a 1' swath from the highway to where the trail crosses the stream... every year. (check my calculations, I haven't had my second liter of coffee yet).
I'm dead serious about using this project to potentially excavate some mediocre bouldering... that steep talus stuff is often surprisingly fun.
Rick,, Yes you bring up good points. But there is a jillion other places to harvest granite if someone so desires.
Problem 1, this will be a very visible operation that will be seen by others who will in turn get the same idea. And only a percentage of those will be legal.
I saw that with christmas tree theft in Alpine county, which went from one or two here and there to five thousand at a time.
The canyon IS my sacred place. Ive fought the fires, cruised the salvage sales, even cited the under sheriff of Alpine county once in the canyon. Climbed there like, you, since the 70s.
So no, im not against capitalism by any stretch and do think there are areas this could work ok,, but the canyon simply cant be one of them. Its one of THE most premier locales in alpine county imo..
that and i know very well how contract inspections and manifests in projects like this work, or dont work as the case often is. Ive heard the expression, "well that worked ok lets do some MORE" also..
A liberal nor conservative i be, just reaching for common sense. As much as the Washoes didnt want their rock to be disturbed is much the same reason i fear for the canyon.
Maybe you guys should read further to see what slope stabilizations measures are proposed before assuming the worst.Perhaps this is a rational (seems impossible doesn't it) cost saving measure by caltrans.
They already have their EA Kenny, im afraid its a dun deal.
And perhaps its just emotion that fuels my disgust. I fully admit that- but ive got vested interest in the place. IF they go any where NEAR LedZep arete,, consequences shall be dire. My last route with Dano man,,SACRED soil to me.
Man, I have bad feeling about this too. I'd hope it's nothing more than low-angle choss they're taking out. Preferably with the goal of sculpting quality overhung jug routes! Yeah, right.
well GOOOD!.. I think at this time, the only guys left i know are Wilde and Dobson...But ill give Wilde a ring anyhoo.
They could do this easily at say,, brewers mine area or forestdale. Out of sight, out of mind, out of the canyon. Improving the back way into blue lakes would be a GUD start. Plenty of granite available there.
The way i see it is that it is a rockfall onto the hwy. mitigation measure.A rare rational partnership between small business and a giant government bureaucracy. This is how things should be, a win win proposition that if repeated here, there and everywhere with a mryiad of different private enterprise just might go a long ways towards solving out of control government spending. The alternative, in this case i believe, would be weeks of inefficient work with heavy equipment, single lane traffic and flaggers,and a result no better. Of course i could be wrong, caltrans may have turned over a new highly efficient leaf that pleases rather than frustrates the public.
Rick,, as i said,, im FOR this sort of thing, but in sensible locales.
Alpine county advertises the canyon even in places like the "good sam club" and countless other publications and sites. Even climbing has graced covers of magazines there. In short, an economic plus to the woodfords area in general. The "death ride" event , motor cycle rallies and many other groups also use this canyon.
As ive been in most any location throughout the entire county i can think of no less that 10 places off hand that would suit this operation far better than the canyon. Jobs, money- commerce,, all GOOD.. doing it to the canyon BAD...When you open a door MORE WILL COME..See sport known as "climbing" for proof of that.;-)
EA does not equal done deal... one of the key words being Assessment.
You can count on me for a letter. My main concerns (which are easily addressed by people who know what they are doing, namely me) are:
Channel stability as a head cut could seriously affect access to the mid-canyon climbing areas. But if they stay to the N of the channel and just take rock off the colluvial wedge/debris flow, there won't be a problem.
Hillslope stability, which could cause gullying on the steep, loose colluvial material.
Future expansion of more intense mining activities.
The proper excavation of 6+' boulders to ensure flat landings and the strategic placement of accidental scars that may facilitate huge overhanging jug hauls.
I know plenty of people who gem hunt around these parts. You tend to get good crystals around the nonconformity between the underlying granitic rock and the younger overlying volcanic rock.
And BTW, I am going flash the sh#t out of Led Zep arete this spring... flash it like it was your mamma.
Ron, don't you think this is going to happen anyway as ongoing maintenance of the hwy, and slopes? Why not applaud it and concentrate on other real planned "improvements" in the area that would really have serious detrimental effect on the asthetics of the canyon. By going on record as approving such a minor measure you will have a credible platform to voice a vision of keeping the canyon in as pristine a state as reasonably possible. Now if we could just do something about the out of contol bolting and manufactured routes in the area...... p.s. am i wrong-are they going to go out of the slope area to any appreciable extent?
Rick, did you forget to take your meds this morning? go over to the politard threads your opinion may be appreciated there.
Yes, Kenny. I would just ask they take in mind climbing concerns there and not take down developed climbs. Obviously, they wouldn't be going all the way up to the bigger climbs, but they could impact access.
People asking why Ron is reacting should consider Woodfords is his Yosemite. And, damn, the place is special!
Good luck on flashing the Led Zep Arete, Wes! I heard it was missing a bolt or two, so you better kick Footloose's ass into gear, I believe he's on the job.
At the very least, isn't asking that we climbers submit our concerns a good idea? Nothing against capitalism, just making sure Wes can continue his orgy of sends seems to warrant a little input. I wouldn't want him thrusting empty air without means of release.
and Wes,, isnt an EA all that is required for the "small" operation? I did a whole timber sale beetle cut up blu lakes rd with only an EA..
No you didn't. You also had to get approval based on the findings of that EA.
and i hope you do Wes.. But the missing bolts still haven been re-installed.
Bolts, or hangers? If it is just hangers, I will be sure to bring some and rig it up. If it is bolts... I'd have to talk to the FA party before dealing with that, and I've heard he's kind of a weird old gun nut.
Led Zep arete could be fixed up in about 45 min. that includes the 30 second approach. we went up there in the early nineties and there were no bolts up higher then. so we toproped
Rick,, what about on the way to Taqshietz?? Safe to say one could harvest all but un noticed out there for decades.
I agree with you commerce approach and harvesting, but not right above camp grounds or camping areas that are also approach starts. This isnt highway shoulder maintenance nor does it fall on Cal trans right of ways.
Ron, One of the areas is at the woodcutters parking pretty much out of the hwy right of way. I built the house downstream directly down from cal trans.they wouldn't let us go over the hwy with power because it's considered a scenic corridor
Led Zep arete could be fixed up in about 45 min. that includes the 30 second approach. we went up there in the early nineties and there were no bolts up higher then. so we toproped
Man, I want to project that piece! There's a lot of talk on the re-bolting of that climb. FOOOOTTLOOOOOSSEEE!!!! Hahaha... For me, that will be a project though, as my orgiastic air humping is much weaker than Wes' in the scrote show of sendage.
Kenny iv'e never paid much attention to the names of the formations but in the lower canyon is a 130' crack climb on perfect rock, with a perfectly protectable crack that is bolted every 10 feet-about 5.8 i would imagine. Up canyon about a half mile is an overhanging orange wall with artificial gym holds and grid bolted= both of these are on the southfacing side of the canyon.It doesn't bother me too much since i can easily climb the crack with natural protection and i am far from capable of climbing the overhanging wall by any combination of available artificial holds.However this practice could rob future generations of other climbs, as standards slowly rise, if carried to an extreme.
Bandit crag. I forgot yeah kind of ridiculous. Footloose was looking for some stainless hangers a while back ago and I recomended those. the Epoxy wall....Not my cup of tea but since Dan isn't around to defend his project wall we can leave that one alone
There are some bolts and artificial holds, so carte blanche on stone is called? I would shudder to think where that would leave Yosemite since chipping, bolt ladders, and crack scarring have all been part of the game there at one time or another.
Can we (rock climbers, ferchrissakes) merely agree that the goal of ensuring no harm to climbable stone is a good thing?
I gave some bolts and hangers to Shawn i believe. But as of late fall they werent replaced yet.. 2 3/8 x 2.5 with hangers are needed..
Now,, we did discuss moving the location of the 4th bolt as not to need the fifth, but then we decided that you could clip one, or the other , or both wasnt bad either. If anyone else cares to re install them, the holes are there- i was planning on it this fall but alas i didnt getter done.
Perhaps ill get to it in the spring.
Its a gnarly thirty second approach, you gotta duck a couple of willows on the way..
Go there, feel the CHI that Dano left.. And ENJOY!
edit: Rick,, yes the Bandit crag is the bolted crack, which was done as early as 77 by moi. Undocumneted though as it was the start of a long and wandering affair we did.
The Epoxy wall was done by Dano BITD. One small chunk of feature less overhanging granite. It was highly controversial even then, but none the less enjoyed by many. It wasnt repeated elsewhere, just that single chunk in tiers of broken granite there. If you look, we believe its the spot where Bertha boulder came from. It was the 80s when envelopes were being pushed i suppose..
I never thought I'd see the day where Ron writes about Qi (chi).
I was just swapping stories with a guy here in NH who was on the phone with MC at the top of the Leaning Tower that fateful day. That must have been hard to swallow.
Yeah ron, I did a long wandering climb somewhere down canyon with my little brother in about '74. Not that start or climb, but it had some pretty good sections of off width and chimney, between areas of choss and wandering, which checked in at about 4 pitches and 5.9 or so. I can't for the life of me identify the line or formation anymore.
hehehe,, i have that exact same problem Rick! Was it up therrrree?? nooo,, i think it was that lol!
Hence they never made a guide book. Fragments of the mind totally.
And yeah,, this is on USFS property above the road- on slopes that get steep quickly. Little room for maneuvering etc etc. No way would cal-trans ever authorize harvesting for their shoulders and cuts. That WOULD require flagmen, cones, signs, arrowboards, etc etc.
Hey Ron, The bottom line for me is This guy isn't taking a few rocks for personal use. He is taking them for profit from our lands what are we getting out of it? more parking
I tried to rally back up Leviathan Mine Rd one time to find the hot springs. Got the ex's SUV stuck and carried on on foot. No places to park that I could find. Almost got eaten by a cougar. Good times.
Bertha boulder is the HUGE boulder that sets right at the edge of the highway cut winter side.. Has "gabe + Bertha" - a LONG time graffiti facing the road. stands out like a huge boulder in a sand flat.Which it is..
Three main routes, a 5.8 crack to slab, a 5.12++ or A1 roof to slab and the backside 5.6 down climb..
You missed Big Bertha? Just down/up the road depending on which way you were coming for those Mama Cat trips.
It looked like there were some crimpy problems on Bertha besides the o dubs. I don't know much about the bouldering there though.
I found a cool slab problem across the river from the pullout/camping just up from the woodfords parking though. I think it hasn't been done but it's not something I'll ever do anyway. I'm sure if you're willing to haul pads all over creation you could find a lot of stuff up there.
If everything goes according to plans I will be super busy until I leave for the month of March in Fontainebleau!!! But when I get back, I'm always psyched to clean new stone.
I'll trade a tour of your volcanic for a tour of my unrepeated problems at Luther Pass. Definitely worth a day.
Hi Kenny,
How's the climbing at Woodfords right after big snow dump like we just had? Climbing in sun OK? We plan on coming up there soon as we have a place to stay in Markleeville. Can you climb during the week?
"Whites wall" ,, named that due to the first route put up on it by Chuck Jobst in 78, the Chimney climb,, in WHITES boots!!!! The smoke jumper model they were. Talk about "trad" !;-D
If you do,,, theres an old route we did on it called "children of the sun"
which goes up a runout slab- into a finger crack to hand crack, which is just left of the obvious roof on the right side of the crag. The first pitch ended in the crack where a obvious dike of quartz and knobbery go straight to the left.
The upper pitches were DUNG, loose and dangerous so if one were to put a nice anchor at that belay somewhere around 120' i think, that would be fine and dandy with me! Its a good one pitch climb and it could clean up, but it seldom sees any traffic up there. But no doubt theres some fine things to do otherwise up yonder.
edit: When i first met chuck, he had snagged a pair of SHOO- nards the blue aid boots and was no longer climbing in whites.. It wasnt long before i convinced him he needed to get some EBs lol!
I've seen various people collecting rocks for years. I've blocked trails that they used to get easy access to the rocks. One person with hand tools can do a great deal of damage in a single day, so a group with permission to gather rocks will destroy the area. I'm bummed but I've read Edward Abbey. Dan
Dan, I spoke with someone from the forest service and they said they had no idea how they would monitor this project.So my guess is this 1500 tons looks good for permitting purposes but will most likely be all the rock you can collect in three years possibly extended to five.
Exactly a point brought up to them.. How to "scale" ?? How to contract inspect?? Honor system?? Then the inevitable other folks seeing this and thinking,, hmmmm i too can snag some stone.
My buddy G-Rome said the company that is seeking the permission to f*#k up Cloudburst is called Figaroa they claim to have one employee and make 80,000 a year. They must be getting a big loan to take this project on so the plans must be somewhat concrete. Dan
Dan, I'm not sure but my friend at the f.s. say's that this isn't even close to being done and we should send letters to the head ranger genny wilson her address is in the link I posted
Sorry to hear about this. But this is just the tip of the iceberg we will be seeing nationwide as counties and states budgets deplete, they will be opening up options on quarrying, mining, logging, etc, that previously would have never been on the table. Very sad times for America. Ill write a letter even though never been, hoping for the best!
The say at the F.S. That this is a special use permit and not done for revenue just bus. as usual. I'm callin bullshit on that one if there was no money in it for them it wouldn't even be considered.
Youd be surprised Keny.. I gave out many a "special use permit" for things like poles ( lodge pole repro) et etc, and those- at about 10.00 per cord - the only way to scale such permits..People do have use for the natual things out there, and it is our land. So i dont disagree with rock harvesting as long as it isnt in a main corridor of recreational activities and a riparian zone .
This is what one man with hand tools can do to the base of a boulder looking for artifacts.
1500 tons of grainite is only ~700 cubic yards, which would cover an area ~100'x200' if it were excavated 1' deep. It will be deeper than 1', so the areal extent will be less. Then there are the tracks, etc. It will be a scar for sure, and may affect access.
From what I've seen, it is much easier to augment and expand an operation once it is already going. Mining operations almost always fail to implement the proper restoration measures... if there even are any.
I understand Ron but he should have to find a more suitable location. I realize the locations he has chosen a very conveniant therefore increasing his profit margin.
Well this just sucks. Along with chim we have seen illegal taking of granite over the years in the proposed area illegally. Probably the same people that now want the permit.
Ron I do have LZA on my rebolt list priority one. Ill get it done this spring
Shawn
dam skippy guys,, we made a difference. And the USFS came through with a correct rsponse imho..
She did tell me that several responders thought they would be using machinery etc, and i explained to her that most of us knew the techniques of the harvest yet were still against it for the many reasons. I did tell her about another area that would be far more suitable. She was interested in that and will follow up after the melt. A nice Ranger to talk with really.
If you have the time, a short THANK YOU e mail to the district might be appropriate here..
Thanks Laine,,its OUR SACRED ground...;-) And im just one of many.. The Younger gen like Chim and company have taken the reigns quite nicely. It was a collective effort brought forth by Super Topo and CMac and KennyT for the heads up!...
Ron, that is great news I just got back from the Cat scratch fever. cool route, and I like all that rock layin around where it belongs! Thank's for the follow up Ron, Good work Guy's.
Let us know!