Tahoe Lobsters -- would you buy them?

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Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Dec 20, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
An innovative entrepreneur can raise them in their toilet tank. Just like shnook!
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Dec 20, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
Since they live at a far higher elevation than the run-of-the-mill lobsters, they should acclimate better for their Everest trip. I think yummy experiments are in order...I'll bring the butter.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 01:27pm PT
Ron, I live with an ecologist, whose best friend (and my second wife) has been studying warm water invasive species in Tahoe for over a decade. We don't have "Fishing" and "Guns and Ammo" on our coffee table, we have "Frontiers in Ecology" and "Aquatic Biology." While I admit, I'm a subsurface hydrology kind of guy, I assure you I know a fukload more about this than you could ever imagine.


Donini, yeah, the Kokanee salmon are not native to Tahoe, they were introduced sometime in the 1940's(?). But everyone loves them... they even have their own festival. They have been around long enough, don't adversely affect the native species, and have found a niche... so most ecologists are okay with them. Plus their purdy!

Crawdads are different, as are the warm water fish in the keys.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
Good then, you can tell me about PH and temps of Micropterous salamoides and subs, as well as the Char and true Salamoides salamoides and thier PH and temp requirements. Shouldnt be hard to do with your wealth of knowledge. Then tell me about their fry and habitats.

tell me that a large mouth, green sunfish or bull head cat will go into 40 something degree waters VOLUNTARILY out of a warm shallow key .. Or that a mackinaw will decide to go into four foot deep warm water.. Tell me how the kokanee spawn into the KEYS..? Id love to hear it.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
PH factors

hahahahaaaaaa... pH "factors".... hahahahaaaaaa....
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2012 - 01:37pm PT
there you go again Wes.. PH factors are a CRITICAL element of warm water and cold water fisheries.

I have a ph meter on my boat.. Ive used it thousands of hours.. Are you sure you know ANYTHING about fish?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
No you fuking moron, there is no such thing as "pH factors", there is only pH, which is a measure of the concentration of H ions in the water.

Largemouth Bass (Micropterus salmoides) The Largemouth is no doubt the most popular warm-water game fish in North America. It occupies the role of top predator in the vast majority of habitats that it occupies. It can reach up to 37 inches in length and 23 lbs. The largemouth bass has a wide variety of prey. Its diet consists of other fish, worms, grubs, frogs, snakes, crayfish, and insects. It will wait in structure including grass, brush, laydowns, drop-offs, and roots to ambush its prey. Then, it will swallow it whole and digest it. It has recently been found in Lake Tahoe and is a major growing concern for biologist in the Basin.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
The lobsters are thriving on the abundance of pH factors up here!

Bluegill (Lepomis macrochirus) The Bluegill is the most abundant sunfish in the area and as such has been one of the native fishes main competitors

Here, if you have any questions I will pass them onto my second wife.

http://www.tahoercd.org/uploads/documents/ISP/Fishes%20of%20Lake%20Tahoe%20Basin.pdf

Stick to stuffing animals and leave the real science to us.


pH factors..... ahahahaaaaaa
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Dec 20, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
theres no fukking lobsters in lake tahoe jesus christ
Lots of trollers in Tahoe
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH


there IS your PH FACTOR..


Wes you dont know SQUAT about fish and fishing in Tahoe.. You CERTAINLY dont know squat about warm water fisheries either..

Those bass and sunfish and bullheads have been there for DECADES. Not the "reecent findings of biologists" by a damm long shot.

Why dont you go be a punk elsewhere.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
Those bass and sunfish and bullheads have been there for DECADES. Not the "reecent findings of biologists" by a damm long shot.

You idiot! The "recent findings" are that they are speading, and increasing pressure on native species (as I said) through predation and competition. Why don't you learn something for a change and shut the fuk up... or just go stuff your animals and convince yourself that you know more than scientists who have spent years meticulously collecting data rather than just pounding beers in a fishing boat.


http://aquaticinvasions.net/2008/AI_2008_3_1_Kamerath_etal.pdf

Snorkel surveys were conducted bi-weekly from May to November 2006 and electrofishing was
conducted four times within the snorkel survey period at locations where warm water species are already established. Snorkel
surveys and electro-fishing revealed that 57% of monitored sites contained warm water nonnative fish species. At electro-fish
sites, number of native fish decreased with increasing nonnative fish species. Comparing historical and current diet data of
natives and nonnatives indicated the latter are consuming the same diet items that native fish consumed historically. As a result,
where nonnative and native fish habitats overlap, predation on and competition with native fish is likely. Current distributions of
nonnative species found during this study are where the next established populations can be expected if their spread is not
controlled.

How many snorkel surveys have you done? Me, only a handful. How many electro-fishing surveys have you done? That's where you get ALL the fish in a certain area, not just what happens to be feeding.

The
numbers captured from the Tahoe Keys reinforce
previous hypotheses (Chandra et al., unpublished
data, 1999) that **when warm water nonnative
fishes were present, native populations were
depressed due to predation and competition** from
warm water nonnative fish. In the early 1990s
warm water fish species were rarely found
around the lake while native minnows remained
abundant. By the end of the decade largemouth
bass and bluegill were common while Lahontan
redsides [(Richardsonius egregius (Girard,
1858)] and speckled dace [Rhinichthys osculus
robustus (Girard, 1856)] populations declined or
were virtually eliminated from the Tahoe Keys,
an important rearing ground for native fishes
(CDFG, unpublished data).

Only largemouth bass and bluegill had widespread
distributions outside of the Tahoe Keys
and Taylor Creek. **Both nonnative species were
present in 57% of snorkel sites** for a minimum of
one survey period (Figure 1).

Lahontan redsides typically begin spawning in
early June, and young of the year are abundant
by mid August (Evans 1969). Largemouth bass
and bluegill were present in marinas adjacent to
spawning habitat and streams used by native
fishes for spawning, feeding, and cover (Metz et
al. 2007). Largemouth bass and bluegill were
also found in complex habitats where native fish
densities are high (Beauchamp et al. 1994).
Consequently, **the period of greatest overlap
between native and nonnative fish is during
critical spawning and rearing periods of
Lahontan redsides and speckled dace** (Evans
1969; Tucker 1969; Miller 1951). From these
data alone we cannot infer that native fish
species are decreasing because nonnative fish are
present. However, **because habitat overlap
between native and nonnatives is highest during
spawning and rearing of the former, //predation
and competition is likely to have a negative
effect// on the native fishery.**

Current nonnative diet data show that
largemouth bass and bluegill are piscivorous and
could place increasing stress on native fish
populations. **Both native and nonnative fish
occurred in 43.1% of all largemouth bass
specimens.** Predation pressure, coupled with
potential dietary competition, will likely threaten
an already declining native fishery (Thiede 1997)
if warm water nonnative fish species become
well established in Lake Tahoe.


There are no "pH factors"... hahahaaaaaa


Don't turn into a blurring. You know what you know, but it ain't jack sh#t compared to years of scientific data. There is tons of cool stuff you could learn if you would just pull your head out of your ass and realize sometimes the FACTS contradict what you think you already know. And when they do, you can either continue being an uneducated idiot, or you can change your views based on the available evidence.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 20, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
That wikipedia article proves it again. Mr. Anderson, you sir, are a moron.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
Yes ive seen those "studies" ..

The percentages sometimes derived from three fish seen too. But unlike Wes, ive been there and seen for myself. Those fish have been there for DECADES and not one person i know has ever caught one outside of the keys, not even the guides. Sure, there may very well be occasional escapees that venture the shallow, but that is only during the peak temps of the summer.

Should i now list the forums and sites that completely deny those above studies? Should the real reasons of declining chubs and minnow species be talked about, like SALT/sand? Or Brines used on the roadways all around it?


Have you ever caught a bass, Wes, outside of the keys?? the answer would be no. Neither have i.. Gee no one know that fishes there has either. Ive kayaked the east shore and never seen or caught one then either.

Ive NEVER seen a bass fry ball outside the keys either.. Nor have i seen a mack eating bass fry in the keys either. In FACT they just guess as to declines in bait populations AS the study actually says in it.

Ill provide you the lures to go do 100 hours of fishing see if YOU can find a bass outside the keys.

I had NDOW biologists tell me i was full of it on bass growth rates in mason valley,,, UNTIL i did my tag experiments physically proving it to their slack jaws.







so get off my thread - im already tired of you stalking nature here.

This is about MY business idea, thank you in advance.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 02:36pm PT
The percentages sometimes derived from three fish seen too.

Funny, cuz none of those percentages were derived from three fish.

"Diets of 684 nonnative fish were analyzed (394
bluegill, and 290 largemouth bass)."

The sampling methods seemed pretty robust to me and that is a bit more than 3. Way more robust than you heading out for a day of drinking and fishing with some buddies. Although my buddy who helped fund the study would certainly not be opposed to those methods... in addition to the real science.

But unlike Wes, ive been there and seen for myself.

I've done snorkel surveys, have you? I might even be able to get you out on an electro-fishing survey. You should try it, you will probably like it.

Those fish have been there for DECADES and not one person i know has ever caught one outside of the keys, not even the guides.

Again, your head is lodged so firmly up your a*#... you seriously need to get some air. You clearly haven't read the study.

Sure, there may very well be occasional escapees that venture the shallow, but that is only during the peak temps of the summer.

Sure, and it has been DOCUMENTED by repeated measurements with sound statistics that THE POPULATIONS OUTSIDE THE KEYS ARE INCREASING.

Should i now list the forums and sites that completely deny those above studies?

Sure, that sounds fun. I would love to compare their sampling methods.

Should the real reasons of declining chubs and minnow species be talked about, like SALT/sand? Or Brines used on the roadways all around it?

Oh, please do! We scientists are open to all information, even if it is complete crap. We have the training to discern the difference.


Have you ever caught a bass, Wes, outside of the keys??

Hundreds, in Lake Powell.

Gee no one know that fishes there has either. Ive kayaked the east shore and never seen or caught one then either.

You've never used an electro-shocker, have you? The answer would be no. You pretty much get it all, not just what your shitty fishing skills yield. But you should know that cuz you worked for Fish and Game or something... and I'm sure you were such an open minded person you grabbed any and every chance to learn something new.



Ive NEVER seen a bass fry ball outside the keys either..

How many hours of snorkeling and/or scuba do you have? Cuz the people I talk to (and trust) have 100's of hours.

Nor have i seen a mack eating bass fry in the keys either.

And I've never seen your as#@&%e, but clearly you have one... although you do seem to be pretty full of sh#t, so you never know.

Ill provide you the lures to go do 100 hours of fishing see if YOU can find a bass outside the keys.

That's retarded. I will volunteer to go out with my second wife on her next electro-fishing survey and take pictures of more bass than you could imagine. BTW, my third wife is working the shocker in the above video... she loves it when I talk like that.

I had NDOW biologists tell me i was full of it on bass growth rates in mason valley,,, UNTIL i did my tag experiments physically proving it to their slack jaws.

I think they were slack jawed at your ignorance of what constitutes a scientific study and reliable measurements.



This ain't your thread, this is CMacs thread. He is free to boot me again anytime he sees fit.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
Wes your quite wrong, ive done electro shocking, seining and habitat restorations from Paiute Cuthroats to bass at Mason valley, carson river and washoe lake. Did an eight year study at Mason Valley - dealing with temps, PH problems through the use of insecticides, carp effects, growth rates, spawning sites,spawning patterns, bottom types, competition of four main species, and even got an award from them for the effort.
If the local NDOW guys wanted to know about a pond of the many in Mason Valley, they asked me first. When they wanted to drain the Gadwall series, they asked me to FISH the transplants out as the shock boats were all but USELESS there. So i organized a transplant tournament amongst many pro fisherman i knew at the time and we did just that for weeks. When they thought they needed habitat for the pond these fish were going into who do you think did that also.?


Credit: Ron Anderson

heres a couple of "drunk pro fisherman with NDOW filling yet another load of transplant bass , crappie and blugill



Credit: Ron Anderson

hers some dedicated guys doing a huge job of habitat creation for three species of warm water fish in the Mason Valley WMA.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
omg, then you ARE and expert... and the rest of us are wrong. I will let all my scientist friends know we should just save time and money and contact you... that is, if you would be so gracious as to enlighten us with your infallible wisdom from the 1970's. I'm sure nothing has changed, regardless of those silly observations and studies and stuff.

Man, it sure will be nice to finally be able to throw away decades of meticulous measurements and findings and move on, following our new omniscient expert.

Did an eight year study at Mason Valley - dealing with temps, PH problems through the use of insecticides, carp effects, growth rates, spawning sites,spawning patterns, bottom types, competition of four main species, and even got an award from them for the effort.

Impressive. That's some high tech equipment right there. Tell me, what was the resolution of your litmus paper? Habitat creation with old tires... genius!

"Studies show that zinc, heavy metals, a host of vulcanization and rubber chemicals leach into water from tires. Many organisms are sensitive, and without dilution, contaminated tire water has been shown to kill some organisms."

But I'm sure you guys knew that from the studies you did... where you stuck the tires in a puddle and didn't see any stuff leach out... so yeah, these modern studies sound more and more like bullshit to me.

Should i now list the forums and sites that completely deny those above studies?

Anytime now...
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2012 - 03:41pm PT
no,, ill wait for you to catch a stringer of bass at cave rock..

Instead heres facts:


You kinda remind me of TRPA folk. Same ones that said they would never allow logging back in the 70s/early 80s in tahoe cuz it was "natural" the way it was. They had the studies to prove them right too.


Wes, do you know what happens to a bass in waters in the 40's? Which most of tahoe is most of the time right? only july/aug does even the surface temps warm into the 60s average. Right?
A bass in 40ish degree water is all but in hibernation. They feed only occasionally and a very small amount - since they wont hardly move to get any prey. The exception being deep warm water lakes with thermoclines.
But for tahoe, thats hibernation. They might take 1 minnow every couple of days if that. The free roamers that may be in tahoe can only exist in the extreme shallows as the below surface temps are un tolerable for those fish. 30 something doesnt equate with largemouth at all. They would have nearly NO growth rates in tahoe either - even they keys is was a slow rate of growth type fish . And even your posted study admits its a guess of lesser populations of minnow and the reasons. So for a two month active feeding season for a few roaming bass and sunfish in the shallows and keys, we now have a problem with the bait fish at rubicon point or elsewhere? Have you ran a graph over tahoe? I have.. Ive graphed up thousands of fish hitting clouds of minnows. Of course, not one of them a largemouth bass..






dirtbag

climber
Dec 20, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
Why rely on data that has been systematically and objectively collected and analyzed by experts with years of experience when instead, we have colorful anecdotes?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 20, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
Instead heres facts:

psst, there ain't a fact in that entire post. Maybe that is the problem here, you don't know what a fact actually is?

Wes, do you know what happens to a bass in waters in the 40's? Which most of tahoe is most of the time right?

Nobody ever said, or even suggested, the invasive fish species of concern were in most of Tahoe most of the time.

The free roamers that may be in tahoe can only exist in the extreme shallows

Strange... why would ecologists be worried then... unless:

**habitat overlap between native and nonnatives is highest during
spawning and rearing of the former, predation
and competition is likely to have a negative
effect on the native fishery.**

I have.. Ive graphed up thousands of fish hitting clouds of minnows.

Using what?
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 20, 2012 - 03:58pm PT
I think what ron meant to say was that after drinking LOTS of natural light and throwing some powerbait off the east shore, he has not caught a bass, which proves that bass don't exist in Lake Tahoe. Ron, is that accurate?
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