New startup for indoor climbing

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Messages 1 - 47 of total 47 in this topic
Nagilo

Gym climber
Graz, Austria
Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 18, 2012 - 07:24am PT
We are a new start-up with a cool product idea for indoor climbing. And we need your help and your feedback.

Help us by taking the 2min survey: Click here to take survey


Visit our website or facebook page to find out more:
www.level12.eu
facebook.com/climblevel12
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 18, 2012 - 09:09am PT
Interesting technology, you are facing a tough crowd here. I could see it working in a gym I guess.
Edge

Trad climber
New Durham, NH
Dec 18, 2012 - 09:26am PT
I guess my biggest concern is how this will effect my claim of an onsite.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Dec 18, 2012 - 09:32am PT
I'd have no use for it personally.

But I don't go to a gym.

I can see it could be useful for specific training routines. And you could play a mean game of vertical Twister with it.

Set it up outside and record the Nose speed record climbs, or do a blow by blow of some big aid route haha. Real world beta... Tom at the bridge he could give some cool laser beta and even do a night show!

DMT

Prod

Trad climber
Dec 18, 2012 - 09:42am PT
Is that what it has come to? I hope you make a ton, but..... just but.

Prod.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 18, 2012 - 09:46am PT
Not interested.
Fish Finder

Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
Dec 18, 2012 - 09:52am PT


Kind of like paint by number


Good Luck.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 18, 2012 - 09:53am PT
Clever.

But when I get stuck in a gym, I usally just shout over to the 14 year old kid on the next route over and ask for beta.
Tfish

Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
Dec 18, 2012 - 10:27am PT
Kinda cool. But when I can't get a problem I usually know what I have to do but just can't do it, or I'll save it for next time and figure it out then. Most of the fun is figuring out of to do it yourself.
Blodgett Goat

Trad climber
Missoula, Montana
Dec 18, 2012 - 10:43am PT
Not to bring you guys down but honestly I don't see this as a practical application to anyone.

Half the fun is figuring out the problem or route.

With that said I wish you the best!
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Dec 18, 2012 - 10:47am PT
It would work better if it was the shape of a smokin woman's body you were trying to catch. Or Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime for the ladies, since he's from Graz.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 18, 2012 - 10:49am PT
You mean indoor "simulated" climbing.
neversummer

Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
Dec 18, 2012 - 11:25am PT
Sweet baby jesus..whats next.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 18, 2012 - 11:26am PT
I wish you guys had been around to have recorded John Bachar (or any number of others) back in the day. Say a free solo of Nabisco Wall, and the Noobs could buy the movement video and a projector to try to recreate the freesolo up the Cookie on their own.
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
Dec 18, 2012 - 11:45am PT
Kind of seems like technologically driven spray...

Credit: socialclimber

Charles

^ I don't know DMT, to quote the Dude, "I still masturbate manually"
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Dec 18, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
Hmmm. There do seem to be a host of practical issues. I don't think it is an accident that the promo is shot of a traverse at the camera/projector level. For routes that go up, is the camera/projector going to be mounted on a pole and rigged to follow the climber up the climb? And if the camera/projector isn't fixed, there will critical alignment issues.

Perhaps I'm overly romantic about something that is being analyzed and systemized to death (this is a mathematician speaking, mind you), but my fantasy is such a system will show that there is something incredibly individual about how we solve climbing problems, most obviously because we come in different sizes and shapes, but more interestingly even when two climbers are more or less the same in their physiology. Things that work for one person don't work for another, and even indoors, when the setters plan for a move to be done in a certain way, they are often surprised to see the variety of solutions served up by the clientele.

What I am saying, or perhaps hoping, is that there might be less to learn from a paint-by-the-numbers training concept then one might think. I know this goes against the general concept of sharing beta, for which this device just the ultimate extension, but although I believe each climbing problem has an optimal solution for each individual climber, I kinda hope that there isn't such a thing as an optimal solution for all climbers.

On the flip side, if this eliminates having to listen to self-important as#@&%es bombarding you with beta unbidden, disguising the need to brag under a translucent veneer of helpfulness, then it could be, on balance, a pleasant addition to the social scene.
jstan

climber
Dec 18, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
Couple of things:
1. Climbers each have their own physical dimensions and strengths. A particular problem may present reach difficulties that require concentrating on footwork for one. While someone with reach and the third class leverage problem those arms present, may find it to be an arm strength problem. Different people almost always do things differently. It would appear you have never tried to repeat exactly what another climber just did. You may need to climb a little more and let the technology wait.

The climber is always faced with figuring out the interrelationship between their body and its strengths, and the natural problem presented by the rock.

2. Using imaging technology to do that learning process for a person and doing it on cooked problems sets a person back. Never mind it ignores the thing that makes climbing interesting in the first place.

Long long ago I once followed Henry on a route I had freed. I decided to try and repeat exactly what he did. I simply could not do it. Fortunately I had saved enough energy then to do it the way I originally freed it.

You really need to do something like this. Also try climbing outdoors. You may find it enjoyable. A new experience.

Edit:
If I had to guess, I would guess that Hugh Herr would have collected physiometric data comparing the strides of normal runners with those using his prostheses. That would be very interesting. I would think there would be some differences in the required musculature.
t-bone

climber
Bishop
Dec 18, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
seems better suited for a dance class or maybe perfecting a golf swing
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Dec 18, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
What is the point of this laser show?

People should learn to know how their body feels when moving where, not a laser to tell them.
briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
Dec 18, 2012 - 01:16pm PT
Credit: briham89
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 18, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
What about the belayers inalienable right to yap at the leader, even if the belayer has never laid skin on the route.

Seriously, gym climbers are funny enough when they transition to trad climbing. We have all heard the rant "I climb V5 in the gym" followed by a retreat from a 5.8 lead. Of course Honnold is the exception

One needs to develop the ability to route find, this ain't gonna help.
chill

climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
Dec 18, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
many beginners have problems to improve their climbing techniques and cantĺt reach higher levels of dificulities. Sometimes this can be so frustrating that they even stop climbing.

1.)Dealing with the difference between expectation and reality is part of growing up.
2.) Some people should stop climbing, it ain't for everyone.
karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Dec 18, 2012 - 01:40pm PT
what a great invention, I hate having to use my brain to solve problems.
ruppell

climber
Dec 18, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
Rgold said:

On the flip side, if this eliminates having to listen to self-important as#@&%es bombarding you with beta unbidden, disguising the need to brag under a translucent veneer of helpfulness, then it could be, on balance, a pleasant addition to the social scene.

LMAO.

Didn't some gunks climbers use an old beta-max to film themselves back in the day? Then use that footage to critique their climbing move by move? Hence the modern term beta. I blame those guys for the "BETA SPRAYDOWN" that Rgold hints at so eloquently. Not saying I agree with it just pointing out some of the history of such things.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 18, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
Trying to 'remember' your way up climbs is bad enough, trying to be another climber is worse than bad. Everything about this idea fundamentally misses the mark relative to how and why a person should learn to climb. As the French put it - "Bien dans sa peau" (comfortable in your own skin).

This elevates the seldom acknowledged climb-by-the-dots 'feature' of chalk use to a whole new level - mindlessness.
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Dec 18, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
Level 12: When 11 levels just aren't enough.

Forget 8 minute abs, now there are 7 minute abs!
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 18, 2012 - 02:10pm PT
Good coaching rarely involves telling or showing someone exactly how to do something. Movement is a very individual thing, each person balances and moves in a unique and individual way. A good coach will help a person find the best way for them to do whatever it is they aspire to do, how a "professional" does it is not relevant as another "pro" will most likely do it another way.

Your "one size fits all" approach simply cannot work. You think your climber is frustrated because she cannot figure out the move? Wait 'till the laser diagram shows it to her and it's even harder.

A basic refinement would be to have a database of "pro's" at each increment of height from say 4'5" through 6'5" in 1/4" increments, and at each height have ape indexes from -2 to +5 and weight variations at 1/2 pound increments.

So to even come close to resembling the variables in the real world, you should plan to have scans of hundreds of "pro's" of various sizes climbing each route, then measure the parameters of the new climber to select the "pro" most like them. Oh wait, right handed or left? Long torso or short? Big feet or small? Edging shoes or slippers?
jstan

climber
Dec 24, 2012 - 12:41am PT
Didn't some gunks climbers use an old beta-max to film themselves back in the day?

According to Wiki Beta-max was released in 1975. If it happened, it would not have been very BITD. I never heard of it. For the reasons above, if it was done, I doubt it was done much.



Beta is the second phase in testing. Its focus is not to implement features anymore, (it is called feature complete), but rather to improve its user-friendliness. Everything is taken care by beta-testers that are "usually customers or prospective customers of the organization that develops the software, willing to test the software without charge, often receiving the final software free of charge or for a reduced price."

MisterE

Social climber
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:29am PT
Must every activity be dissected to death.

As mentioned, where is the place where you find your natural flow if every move is digitized.

Sorry, I just think this takes away from the activity rather than contributing.

If climbing just frustrates you in a gym, try climbing outside - sheesh. Or do something else.
ruppell

climber
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:36am PT
jstan

From wiki

The original use of the term Beta in climbing is generally attributed to the late climber, Jack Mileski. "Beta" was short for Betamax, a reference to an old videotape format largely replaced by the VHS format. This was actually a play on words, as Jack would often ask, "you want the beta, Max?"

Here's the full link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_(climbing)

Maybe my brain made the part up about those guys using the actual films. I swear I heard it somewhere though. Maybe just another climbing urban legend. Love to hear if anyone knows the full story.
adikted

Boulder climber
Tahooooeeeee
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:53am PT
This is kinda like the shake weight for climbing.....i dont get it!!
Chinchen

climber
Way out there....
Dec 24, 2012 - 01:56am PT
The copy on your site is really bad. Please hire an editor.


Kind of a silly idea, sorry.


The comment about other uses like golfing, etc. seem much more plausible.
lubbockclimber

Trad climber
lubbock,tx
Dec 24, 2012 - 11:02am PT
Man on top of all the d#@&%es screaming beta every time I touch a problem this should be a great addition to the gym. I hate having to think for myself. I can't imagine any gym ever wasting money on this worthless Sh#t.
Also your website is a total joke. Really really laughing at this idea.
Nagilo

Gym climber
Graz, Austria
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2013 - 04:46pm PT
Hey everybody. Wish you all a Happy New Year.

Sorry for our late reply. And many thanks for participating in the discussion. We agree with all your concern. Due to previous research none of your concern was actually new to us.

The product is not ment to take away your creativity or your passion about climbing. It's only an add-on for inexperienced climbers. Nothing more ;)

Let's see if it works.

Anyway, greetings from Graz - the home of Arnold Schwarzenegger ;)

Matthias Heise
Level12
nutjob

Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
Jan 9, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
It seems like a solution looking for a problem, but perhaps it will be a hit with corporate offsite events? Lots of opportunities for co-worker heckling when you don't match the laser outline. Maybe a sensor on the wall can sound a buzzer or something when the laser contacts the wall because you aren't following it properly?
bergbryce

Mountain climber
California
Jan 9, 2013 - 05:50pm PT
Yeah like Operation!

This is crap as far as climbing goes but some morons will buy it no doubt.
RP3

Big Wall climber
El Portal/Chapel Hill
Jan 9, 2013 - 07:44pm PT
I want it at a techno show!
Level12

Sport climber
Graz
Feb 17, 2013 - 04:00pm PT
First of all: Big thanks to all of you who participated in our survey.

We took your input very seriously and tried to implement many of your suggestions to Level12. And yes, we realise that this might be interesting for beginners only. But still we are curious about your feedback.

With the additional information we created a new, professional demo video. Have a look at http://www.level12.eu and let us know what you think (there's also a feedback form if you like).

Best wishes from Austria
Jasmin - Level12
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Feb 17, 2013 - 04:36pm PT
I like that shot of Picard. I'm always open to looking at new ideas though. I kind of think that climbing movement will invade the generic-type gyms more and more in the future just because climbing workouts are so bitchin.

http://www.outsideonline.com/fitness/climbing/Indoor-Climbing-The-Next-Urban-Sports-Craze.html
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Feb 17, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
According to Wiki Beta-max was released in 1975. If it happened, it would not have been very BITD. I never heard of it.

Seriously?

Neal Cannon penned a pretty damn good article about it back in the day. That was a long time ago man, like Mileski coined the term didn't he? 30 years ago.

DMT
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Feb 17, 2013 - 08:25pm PT
Austria eh? Throw another shrimp on the barbie!

Ihateplastic

Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
Feb 17, 2013 - 10:43pm PT
Let's go next-gen... El Cap meadow at night with a high-power BetaLaser« projecting exact hand and foot placements for an all-free night ascent.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Feb 17, 2013 - 10:52pm PT
Hey man, I hated plastic but then I succumbed. I still like metal though.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 17, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
Dan....don't be apologetic, if you live in Seattle gym climbing is a must. I served a sentence there and succumbed to plastic.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Feb 17, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
Oh, that's what it means! I thought it was plastic in general, like plastic buckles - like when Fastex was invented - remember that - Haha!

Hey, I pull on plastic! :>) When it comes to pulling, I'll pull most anything. Proof of life; here's some Seattle plastic from the late eighties. Vertical Club had a booth at a trade show in Seattle - Me and Jim Purdy were yanking this wall with a bag over our heads too.

Credit: McHale's Navy
▀ ╬ ě T ă H

Boulder climber
bouldering
Feb 18, 2013 - 01:03am PT
Understood, to conduct a business you gotta give the customer fun and attainable stuff, but I always liked the Mike Call rant from Performance Rock Climbing.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Feb 18, 2013 - 01:27am PT
Fun video - I actually posted the bit above about yanking with a bag on my head before I watched the eyes-closed part in this video - that's the coincidence of the day!
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