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Nagilo
Gym climber
Graz, Austria
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 18, 2012 - 07:24am PT
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We are a new start-up with a cool product idea for indoor climbing. And we need your help and your feedback.
Help us by taking the 2min survey: Click here to take survey
Visit our website or facebook page to find out more:
www.level12.eu
facebook.com/climblevel12
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 18, 2012 - 09:09am PT
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Interesting technology, you are facing a tough crowd here. I could see it working in a gym I guess.
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Edge
Trad climber
New Durham, NH
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Dec 18, 2012 - 09:26am PT
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I guess my biggest concern is how this will effect my claim of an onsite.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 09:42am PT
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Is that what it has come to? I hope you make a ton, but..... just but.
Prod.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 18, 2012 - 09:46am PT
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Not interested.
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Fish Finder
Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
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Dec 18, 2012 - 09:52am PT
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Kind of like paint by number
Good Luck.
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Tfish
Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:27am PT
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Kinda cool. But when I can't get a problem I usually know what I have to do but just can't do it, or I'll save it for next time and figure it out then. Most of the fun is figuring out of to do it yourself.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:47am PT
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It would work better if it was the shape of a smokin woman's body you were trying to catch. Or Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime for the ladies, since he's from Graz.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:49am PT
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You mean indoor "simulated" climbing.
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neversummer
Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:25am PT
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Sweet baby jesus..whats next.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:26am PT
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I wish you guys had been around to have recorded John Bachar (or any number of others) back in the day. Say a free solo of Nabisco Wall, and the Noobs could buy the movement video and a projector to try to recreate the freesolo up the Cookie on their own.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
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Hmmm. There do seem to be a host of practical issues. I don't think it is an accident that the promo is shot of a traverse at the camera/projector level. For routes that go up, is the camera/projector going to be mounted on a pole and rigged to follow the climber up the climb? And if the camera/projector isn't fixed, there will critical alignment issues.
Perhaps I'm overly romantic about something that is being analyzed and systemized to death (this is a mathematician speaking, mind you), but my fantasy is such a system will show that there is something incredibly individual about how we solve climbing problems, most obviously because we come in different sizes and shapes, but more interestingly even when two climbers are more or less the same in their physiology. Things that work for one person don't work for another, and even indoors, when the setters plan for a move to be done in a certain way, they are often surprised to see the variety of solutions served up by the clientele.
What I am saying, or perhaps hoping, is that there might be less to learn from a paint-by-the-numbers training concept then one might think. I know this goes against the general concept of sharing beta, for which this device just the ultimate extension, but although I believe each climbing problem has an optimal solution for each individual climber, I kinda hope that there isn't such a thing as an optimal solution for all climbers.
On the flip side, if this eliminates having to listen to self-important as#@&%es bombarding you with beta unbidden, disguising the need to brag under a translucent veneer of helpfulness, then it could be, on balance, a pleasant addition to the social scene.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
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Couple of things:
1. Climbers each have their own physical dimensions and strengths. A particular problem may present reach difficulties that require concentrating on footwork for one. While someone with reach and the third class leverage problem those arms present, may find it to be an arm strength problem. Different people almost always do things differently. It would appear you have never tried to repeat exactly what another climber just did. You may need to climb a little more and let the technology wait.
The climber is always faced with figuring out the interrelationship between their body and its strengths, and the natural problem presented by the rock.
2. Using imaging technology to do that learning process for a person and doing it on cooked problems sets a person back. Never mind it ignores the thing that makes climbing interesting in the first place.
Long long ago I once followed Henry on a route I had freed. I decided to try and repeat exactly what he did. I simply could not do it. Fortunately I had saved enough energy then to do it the way I originally freed it.
You really need to do something like this. Also try climbing outdoors. You may find it enjoyable. A new experience.
Edit:
If I had to guess, I would guess that Hugh Herr would have collected physiometric data comparing the strides of normal runners with those using his prostheses. That would be very interesting. I would think there would be some differences in the required musculature.
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t-bone
climber
Bishop
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
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seems better suited for a dance class or maybe perfecting a golf swing
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
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What is the point of this laser show?
People should learn to know how their body feels when moving where, not a laser to tell them.
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:16pm PT
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
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What about the belayers inalienable right to yap at the leader, even if the belayer has never laid skin on the route.
Seriously, gym climbers are funny enough when they transition to trad climbing. We have all heard the rant "I climb V5 in the gym" followed by a retreat from a 5.8 lead. Of course Honnold is the exception
One needs to develop the ability to route find, this ain't gonna help.
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
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many beginners have problems to improve their climbing techniques and cant’t reach higher levels of dificulities. Sometimes this can be so frustrating that they even stop climbing.
1.)Dealing with the difference between expectation and reality is part of growing up.
2.) Some people should stop climbing, it ain't for everyone.
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:40pm PT
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what a great invention, I hate having to use my brain to solve problems.
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ruppell
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
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Rgold said:
On the flip side, if this eliminates having to listen to self-important as#@&%es bombarding you with beta unbidden, disguising the need to brag under a translucent veneer of helpfulness, then it could be, on balance, a pleasant addition to the social scene.
LMAO.
Didn't some gunks climbers use an old beta-max to film themselves back in the day? Then use that footage to critique their climbing move by move? Hence the modern term beta. I blame those guys for the "BETA SPRAYDOWN" that Rgold hints at so eloquently. Not saying I agree with it just pointing out some of the history of such things.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
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Trying to 'remember' your way up climbs is bad enough, trying to be another climber is worse than bad. Everything about this idea fundamentally misses the mark relative to how and why a person should learn to climb. As the French put it - "Bien dans sa peau" (comfortable in your own skin).
This elevates the seldom acknowledged climb-by-the-dots 'feature' of chalk use to a whole new level - mindlessness.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
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Level 12: When 11 levels just aren't enough.
Forget 8 minute abs, now there are 7 minute abs!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 18, 2012 - 02:10pm PT
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Good coaching rarely involves telling or showing someone exactly how to do something. Movement is a very individual thing, each person balances and moves in a unique and individual way. A good coach will help a person find the best way for them to do whatever it is they aspire to do, how a "professional" does it is not relevant as another "pro" will most likely do it another way.
Your "one size fits all" approach simply cannot work. You think your climber is frustrated because she cannot figure out the move? Wait 'till the laser diagram shows it to her and it's even harder.
A basic refinement would be to have a database of "pro's" at each increment of height from say 4'5" through 6'5" in 1/4" increments, and at each height have ape indexes from -2 to +5 and weight variations at 1/2 pound increments.
So to even come close to resembling the variables in the real world, you should plan to have scans of hundreds of "pro's" of various sizes climbing each route, then measure the parameters of the new climber to select the "pro" most like them. Oh wait, right handed or left? Long torso or short? Big feet or small? Edging shoes or slippers?
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jstan
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 12:41am PT
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Didn't some gunks climbers use an old beta-max to film themselves back in the day?
According to Wiki Beta-max was released in 1975. If it happened, it would not have been very BITD. I never heard of it. For the reasons above, if it was done, I doubt it was done much.
Beta is the second phase in testing. Its focus is not to implement features anymore, (it is called feature complete), but rather to improve its user-friendliness. Everything is taken care by beta-testers that are "usually customers or prospective customers of the organization that develops the software, willing to test the software without charge, often receiving the final software free of charge or for a reduced price."
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MisterE
Social climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 01:29am PT
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Must every activity be dissected to death.
As mentioned, where is the place where you find your natural flow if every move is digitized.
Sorry, I just think this takes away from the activity rather than contributing.
If climbing just frustrates you in a gym, try climbing outside - sheesh. Or do something else.
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ruppell
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 01:36am PT
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jstan
From wiki
The original use of the term Beta in climbing is generally attributed to the late climber, Jack Mileski. "Beta" was short for Betamax, a reference to an old videotape format largely replaced by the VHS format. This was actually a play on words, as Jack would often ask, "you want the beta, Max?"
Here's the full link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_(climbing)
Maybe my brain made the part up about those guys using the actual films. I swear I heard it somewhere though. Maybe just another climbing urban legend. Love to hear if anyone knows the full story.
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adikted
Boulder climber
Tahooooeeeee
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Dec 24, 2012 - 01:53am PT
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This is kinda like the shake weight for climbing.....i dont get it!!
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Dec 24, 2012 - 01:56am PT
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The copy on your site is really bad. Please hire an editor.
Kind of a silly idea, sorry.
The comment about other uses like golfing, etc. seem much more plausible.
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Nagilo
Gym climber
Graz, Austria
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2013 - 04:46pm PT
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Hey everybody. Wish you all a Happy New Year.
Sorry for our late reply. And many thanks for participating in the discussion. We agree with all your concern. Due to previous research none of your concern was actually new to us.
The product is not ment to take away your creativity or your passion about climbing. It's only an add-on for inexperienced climbers. Nothing more ;)
Let's see if it works.
Anyway, greetings from Graz - the home of Arnold Schwarzenegger ;)
Matthias Heise
Level12
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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It seems like a solution looking for a problem, but perhaps it will be a hit with corporate offsite events? Lots of opportunities for co-worker heckling when you don't match the laser outline. Maybe a sensor on the wall can sound a buzzer or something when the laser contacts the wall because you aren't following it properly?
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
California
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Yeah like Operation!
This is crap as far as climbing goes but some morons will buy it no doubt.
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RP3
Big Wall climber
El Portal/Chapel Hill
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I want it at a techno show!
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Level12
Sport climber
Graz
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Feb 17, 2013 - 04:00pm PT
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First of all: Big thanks to all of you who participated in our survey.
We took your input very seriously and tried to implement many of your suggestions to Level12. And yes, we realise that this might be interesting for beginners only. But still we are curious about your feedback.
With the additional information we created a new, professional demo video. Have a look at http://www.level12.eu and let us know what you think (there's also a feedback form if you like).
Best wishes from Austria
Jasmin - Level12
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 17, 2013 - 08:25pm PT
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Austria eh? Throw another shrimp on the barbie!
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Feb 17, 2013 - 10:43pm PT
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Let's go next-gen... El Cap meadow at night with a high-power BetaLaser® projecting exact hand and foot placements for an all-free night ascent.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Feb 17, 2013 - 10:52pm PT
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Hey man, I hated plastic but then I succumbed. I still like metal though.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 17, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
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Dan....don't be apologetic, if you live in Seattle gym climbing is a must. I served a sentence there and succumbed to plastic.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Feb 17, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
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Oh, that's what it means! I thought it was plastic in general, like plastic buckles - like when Fastex was invented - remember that - Haha!
Hey, I pull on plastic! :>) When it comes to pulling, I'll pull most anything. Proof of life; here's some Seattle plastic from the late eighties. Vertical Club had a booth at a trade show in Seattle - Me and Jim Purdy were yanking this wall with a bag over our heads too.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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Feb 18, 2013 - 01:03am PT
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Understood, to conduct a business you gotta give the customer fun and attainable stuff, but I always liked the Mike Call rant from Performance Rock Climbing. [Click to View YouTube Video]
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Feb 18, 2013 - 01:27am PT
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Fun video - I actually posted the bit above about yanking with a bag on my head before I watched the eyes-closed part in this video - that's the coincidence of the day!
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| Messages 1 - 41 of total 41 in this topic |
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