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Chief

climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 29, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
I was just about to add this comment to the thread and poof, gone like Tower 7.

"I think what's most important is the assiduous avoidance of critical review, informed discussion or civil discourse on this or any other subject here on Supertopo.
The mere suggestion of such behaviour should be immediately met with withering ridicule, character assassination and indignant dismissal."

It's comforting to see the OP come to an understanding that we'll have no such truck as 911 conspiracy theories on this forum.
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
Nov 29, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
Credit: socialclimber

Charles
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
Nov 29, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
Credit: socialclimber

Charles
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 29, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
Oh, we'll have conspiracy threads. Just not from some medicated spammer.

The OP didn't delete the thread, an admin did, then the op was banned.
Chief

climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
Even better, ban such nonsense.
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
Nov 29, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
SuperTopo is in on the conspiracy! Sh#t just got a little more real...

Charles
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Nov 29, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
Cheif you can start your own stupid truther thread or add to the 500 we already have...

That was SPAM?

Do you understand SPAM?
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Nov 29, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
I agree w/ monolith. I hate it when some non-climbing wackos come to troll us.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 29, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
Don't get the "Chief" mixed up with the wacko nutjob "The Chief"

I was actually wanting to post up on 911, but wasn't going to on the new troll thread

Hey Chief!
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 29, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
Bush and Cheney rigged the Twin Towers with explosives???

That has to be one the craziest conspiracies ever concocted by humans

Very few scientists have gone along with this BS.
And there is plenty of evidence that the Towers were able to come down exactly as they did just by the jetliner collisions
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Nov 29, 2012 - 01:47pm PT
Yeah, that was almost as crazy as the conspiracy theory passed off as the official story.
Warren Commission all over again. Everyone knows it is bs, and that something (?) is being covered up.

And there is plenty of evidence that the Towers were able to come down exactly as they did just by the jetliner collisions


Yes that is plausible, as in plausible deniability.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 29, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
Be vewy vewy quiet!

Don't wake up Werner.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 29, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
Dammit I missed that. So how do you explain the molten steel??
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Nov 29, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
Maybe it wasn't steel? And the plot thickens....
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 29, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
This wasn't steel??
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 29, 2012 - 02:35pm PT
The Cover up was all about Bush knowing or not knowing that the attack was coming

and what Bush and Cheney did before and after it happened.
why no interception by the Air Force, why was Cheney running mock drills with NORAD the same day, why did they fly out the Bin Laden's when all air traffic was grounded
so many questions??

Fire and heat melt steel, I can melt steal with a propane torch.
The question about gas not being able to melt steel is just BS
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Nov 29, 2012 - 02:35pm PT
I'm just not going there. Go to infowars.com for this stuff
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 29, 2012 - 02:39pm PT
Enjoy your linear reality boys... While it lasts....
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 29, 2012 - 03:17pm PT
Dr F- can you find another incident where a high rise building was caused to collapse as a result of a fire?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 29, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
Bush and Cheney rigged the Twin Towers with explosives???

I don't think anybody has said Bush and Cheney rigged the towers.

But why critical-thinking adults want to deny an official explosives analysis on the WTC debris, that I don't understand.

If explosives were found to be part of the mix, then wouldn't you want to investigate further? Occum's Razor and all, ya know.


Think of the children!

No, actually think of DHS and how they're here to help you.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 29, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
Say, Munge called it quick. He said the OP of the 9-11 thread was a bot.

How'd he determine that??

And yes, it seems the entire thread was removed--no trace of any posts to it, which is unusual.


Say, CMac climbs, and wouldn't climbers be needed to rig those towers?? Now it's coming to light ;-0
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 29, 2012 - 04:26pm PT
According to the conspiracy
Bush and Cheney had to have someone rig the towers with explosives, right?

so there must be alot of people that did the rigging, why haven't any of them come forward?

They did test the dust for traces of explosives, and found nothing conclusive.

What if one of the jets missed the tower, or just grazed it, was Bush going to take it down anyway?

Why would Bush want to take the Towers down in the first place, isn't the terrorist attack enough for him to do his political damage?

What if Bush was caught, he would be more demonised than Hitler.

It makes no sense
there was no reason to rig the towers with explosives, for any possible reason


Occam Razor's would vindicate me, that it wasn't explosives, just the jet liners.

And bother giving me sh#t or calling me names, I'm just going to argue from the skeptics point of view, which has science backing it.

Rudder

Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
Nov 29, 2012 - 04:59pm PT
Anybody with a construction background knows that of wood, steel, and concrete buildings... steel burns the hottest. I did find "loose change" very entertaining, though. Alot of conspiracy theories are entertaining. :)
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 29, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
Doc, hopefully you don't believe I'm calling you names...

Actually, my conspiracy theory goes beyond Bush & Cheney, who only hold power for 4 or 8 years. The ones who do this type of stuff don't loose power at the whim of some silly general election. But that's another story.

What I'm asking for is a test of the debris, that's all. Unofficially, the debris has been shown to have evidence of explosives.

For WTC7, office fires (the official cause of the collapse) does not do it. The computer models that 'proved' that small fires could have brought down the building had to be tweaked many times before they got the result required. And still, the models are sealed so no body can refute there findings.

And Dr. F., there are many, many other extreme coincidences that occurred that day, the chances of which point to an extremely improbable result of three towers falling, and the Pentagon damage.

We've gone over this a bunch, no need to go circular here. The video on the first page of this thread, as well as the statements made by the authors of the 9-11 Commission Report should be enough to make you wonder--why the cover up??

Cheers,
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 29, 2012 - 05:04pm PT
Rudder, steel doesn't burn. Not without an agent to make it do so.

With your abundant construction knowledge, what made the steel in the WTC buildings "burn?"
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 29, 2012 - 05:08pm PT
They did test the dust for traces of explosives, and found nothing conclusive.

Who did?? Show evidence. Why are thousands of architects calling for a new investigation??


http://ae911truth.org/

I'm not saying anything is conclusive, but it's worth discussing. Much more important IMHO than any of the political topics you guys discuss all the time. It's pretty close minded to just shut down an argument without even talking about it.....
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 29, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
If just the jet liners alone can take the Twin Towers down, as has been proved over and over by scientists and engineers, then why do we have to believe there was a cover up over a controlled demolition.
That's my question

Just google "skeptic 911 controlled demolition", and all kinds of articles are available proving the conspiracy dead wrong

read this one

Is there any scientific validity to the claims of 9/11 controlled demolition conspiracists about the collapse of the World Trade Center buildings?
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/11-09-07/


Steel does not burn, it softens and losses strength, which is all that is needed to bring the buildings down
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 29, 2012 - 05:11pm PT
Thermite makes steel burn real good apparently... Makes these neat little micro spheres too which are evident in all the World Trade Center dust samples....
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 29, 2012 - 05:11pm PT
No, they [NIST, FEMA] did not test for explosives.

I just can't cite this enough:

The chair and vice chair of the 9/11 Commission, respectively Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton, assert in their book, Without Precedent, that they were "set up to fail" and were starved of funds to do a proper investigation. They also confirm that they were denied access to the truth and misled by senior officials in the Pentagon and the federal aviation authority; and that this obstruction and deception led them to contemplate slapping officials with criminal charges.

Despite the many public statements by 9/11 commissioners and staff members acknowledging they were repeatedly lied to, not a single person has ever been charged, tried, or even reprimanded, for lying to the 9/11 Commission.

My question is why folks are determined to believe the 9/11 Commission Report when the authors themselves claim it was pure bunk.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 29, 2012 - 05:15pm PT
NO One in the commission was talking about controlled demolition, they were talking about Bush's cover up on the details of what he knew, and when, and why nothing was done to stop it.


Please show me where the commission was asking about controlled demolition and were stymied.
It wasn't even considered by them.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Nov 29, 2012 - 05:23pm PT
In addition to the evidence that there was explosives in the building that were pre-planted, there is also a bit of evidence that jet airplanes hit the buildings at high speed and their fuel ignited.

I am more inclined to think that people involved made mistakes and were greedy or stupid than I am to think that they were amazingly clever. So clever that they pulled off the most amazing logistical planning since the fake moon landings but were too stupid to know that explosives residue and molten steel would be found?

The nuts are giving way too much credit, and way too little at the same time, to the people who would have planned the whole thing (who are not the terrorists).

But this stuff is pretty funny to read so keep it up.

Dave
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 29, 2012 - 05:36pm PT
When the second plane hit, you can see material eject out the other side of the building.
That means it practically took out the Whole level, and only a little more heat was all it took for the floor above to collapse, which triggered a chain reaction to take out the floors below.

The explosions people heard were compression of gas in the floors below as it went down.

Building 7 was fatally damaged by the other towers falling, and came down on it's own.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 29, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
This [ http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/11-09-07/ ] is a great link. I'll take the time to go through it.

Now, when are we gonna get Werner to fly that plane into the Pentagon to see what would actually happen in such a case??
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 29, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
+1000 Mchale's. I was just going to say, this guy has almost 1800 engineer/architects duped so far! He must be pretty darn convincing!! That article you posted cites the official report lots so its pretty obvious where the bias is on that one... Why didn't they do a real investigation instead of hauling all the evidence away before anyone got the chance??
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 29, 2012 - 06:04pm PT
^^^
are you a explosive demolition expert?


we need Werner to chime in
He has also proved that the moon landing was faked
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Nov 29, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
Dude, I don't think you are much of a Dr of anything. Want to fess up?
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 29, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
Politically, it's all over the map
Me, being a flaming liberal, should be talking conspiracy

McHale
I'm having a discussion, is that too hard for you to deal with.
are you an expert on building demolitions or not
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
Nov 29, 2012 - 06:08pm PT
You mean you just wanna have fun? One does not have to be a demolition expert to understand the forces that would have kept the toppling bldg section intact longer than it was.
Rudder

Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
Nov 29, 2012 - 06:33pm PT
Rudder, steel doesn't burn. Not without an agent to make it do so.

That's not what I said.

With your abundant construction knowledge, what made the steel in the WTC buildings "burn?"

Even if melted metal at the WTC didn't have an explanation... assuming the President had the buildings blown up because you've seen videos of melted metal would be as logical as assuming I have abundant construction knowledge. It's just entertaining and extraordinarily whimsical conjecture.

As for the President imploding the buildings as a logical conclusion based on some melted metal videos... have you ever been to or setup a building implosion? There's no melted metal there. Of course, all the utilties are turned off, all the combustibles are removed from the building, and there is no jet fuel.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 29, 2012 - 06:35pm PT
FWIW there is a large organization of engineers and Architects that dispute the official story on 9-11 based on their scientific analysis

http://ae911truth.org/

over 1700 engineers and Architects (plus bunches of other supporters) are calling for a new investigation of 9-11. Their petition includes their license numbers or degrees



Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 29, 2012 - 06:51pm PT
I studied as many different videos as I could. The second building hit was the first to come down. When it started to topple off to the side the demolitions blew up that upper section as in a normal demolition, with the lower floors being blown first. When that section dissappears you see the section below getting a reverse demolition treatment - from the plane entry level down - a more unusual demolition. The 2 demolitions blend pretty well but the distinction can be made.
McCale

Not to belabor the point, and hopefully not cause any bad blood.
I just thought your post was very speculative, unless you were a explosive demolition expert.

The explanation of why the buildings fell straight down has been documented, and it wasn't reverse demolition treatment (which would take alot of people watching the demolition and responding instantly with the counter explosives) was that the inner core of the buildings was strong enough to keep the building from fall over on it's side.

The Twin Towers had an outer steel shell, and an inner steel core surrounding the elevators, which was part of the design so they would not fall over.

Just call me the voice of reason, an advocate for science and skepticism.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 29, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
What impresses the hell out of me is how those devious conspirators were able to figure out exactly where those planes were going to hit the buildings so that they could pre-place the charges in a way so that the charges would resist the fire for the better part of an hour before detonating and collapsing the buildings.

Absolutely brilliant!
Those conspirators must have been evil geniuses (or is that genii ?)!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 29, 2012 - 06:55pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^ Now THAT was BRILLIANT! HaHaHaHaHaHa!
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 29, 2012 - 06:55pm PT
The one thing I do agree on

Is that we need a New 911 Investigation.

a complete and thorough investigation, with subpoena power
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 29, 2012 - 06:56pm PT
Agreed Dr F.
Rudder

Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
Nov 29, 2012 - 06:59pm PT
Is that we need a New 911 Investigation.

More money we don't have to prove more convincingly the same conclusion. Do we really need to do that?
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 29, 2012 - 07:02pm PT
keeping an eye on this thread.

Chris2

Trad climber
Nov 29, 2012 - 07:06pm PT
An interesting PBS Documentary based only on facts.
http://video.cpt12.org/video/2270078138
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 29, 2012 - 07:21pm PT
well it is definitly leaning, that much is true

but reverse demolition treatment?
That can't be determined from the evidence
sullly

Trad climber
Nov 29, 2012 - 07:23pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#276112
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 29, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
Absolutely shocking that the upper section would tilt towards max damage side. We need a new investigation!

BTW, Chief, Thanks for creating yet another dumbass 911 thread.
Randal Hassen

Gym climber
Sacramento
Nov 29, 2012 - 07:50pm PT
I can see an argument for that. The explosion of material below the fulcrum point in the photo above, does seem quite odd. Even with the amount off mass comming straight down, the projection of material seems rather uniform, and impressive.


Also, it looks like the building should have kept leaning over, rather than comming straight down. Something stopped the momentum of the upper floors from continuing on their path.


Inside job for sure!
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 29, 2012 - 07:51pm PT
That 'explosion' would be supersonic, not the slow speed ejection we see.

And we'd here it thru out manhatten.

Once the backside hinge is broken, there's nothing that would keep it from coming straight down.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 29, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
Ok, you guys are right
I found this transcript from Cheney


Hey George, I got this great idea, these Saudi Jihadists I know are wanting to do some damage, so we will get them to crash our jet liners into the TT, the Pentagon, and the WH...
and we will rig the TT with explosives to bring them down, and Building 7 too. .

All we need is a team of secret insiders, to first rig the TT and B7 with reverse demolition treatment on every floor, so we can make SURE that they come down no matter which way the buildings start to lean.

They have been instructed to devise a plan that no matter what happens, the buildings will fall down directly on their footprint, and do minimal damage to my property on the corner
Morgan

Trad climber
East Coast
Nov 29, 2012 - 08:09pm PT
http://www.zhgroup.com.hk/productchimneystarter.html
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 29, 2012 - 08:12pm PT
Steel can burn. Certain cutting processes rely on steel burning.

Just didn't happen on 911

Randal Hassen

Gym climber
Sacramento
Nov 29, 2012 - 08:14pm PT
What about that room we see in the middle. Looks to be a flame.

Why a flame/fire..............................or Exposive Mat'l.

Below the impact zone. Should just be crushed material?????????????


I smell a rat.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 29, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 29, 2012 - 08:19pm PT
Steel requires fire-proofing to maintain structural integrity in fire.

http://books.google.com/books?id=a8jU-2xyw5EC&pg=PA149&lpg=PA149&dq=heat+steel+loses+structural+integrity&source=bl&ots=RKobe1jrgA&sig=FQOCKv6XNzTJZgAFTbQC87nUGzQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QQm4UPuTNaOXiALvkYGADw&ved=0CF8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=heat%20steel%20loses%20structural%20integrity&f=false
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 29, 2012 - 08:24pm PT
FWIW there is a large organization of engineers and Architects that dispute the official story on 9-11 based on their scientific analysis

http://ae911truth.org/

over 1700 engineers and Architects (plus bunches of other supporters) are calling for a new investigation of 9-11. Their petition includes their license numbers or degrees

Are these the same as the Global Warming scientists?

And people say my theories are crazy...It was f*#king planes!!!!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 29, 2012 - 08:25pm PT
Granite, that's pretty cool [steel wool burning]!

But what's the point?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 29, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
Are these the same as the Global Warming scientists?


Whoa boy, watch out. There's a genius on the premises.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 29, 2012 - 08:28pm PT






monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 29, 2012 - 08:29pm PT
I just knew GC couldn't resist posting. I couldn't either.

Love it when basic science observations blow away the twoofers.

And I'll try to control myself. No more posting on this dumbass thread.
Chief

climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2012 - 08:31pm PT
Cheif you can start your own stupid truther thread or add to the 500 we already have...
BTW, Chief, Thanks for creating yet another dumbass 911 thread.

Short on observation and quick to react.
My post was not about 911 or whether there was or wasn't a conspiracy but rather, my observation that critical thinking, informed debate, different points of view and most importantly, (as evidenced by the quoted comments), civil discourse will not be tolerated here.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 29, 2012 - 08:37pm PT
I just knew GC couldn't resist posting. I couldn't either.

Love it when basic science demonstrations blow away the twoofers.

And I'll try to control myself. No more posting on this dumbass thread.

Oops, here I go AGAIN...

Everything here should have been posted in this thread: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1997403&msg=1997769#msg1997769
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 29, 2012 - 08:39pm PT
After an LA fire.

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 29, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
Aluminum Alloy rim.

Watch out, another genius.


And that's telling Granite [regarding the link to the education topic]. Especially because you just
posted three things [now four] that say nothing about the topic at hand.

In fact, your steel wool video specifically says to fluff out the iron, because it won't burn without oxygen.

Which actually goes a long way when you consider that the fires under Ground Zero burned for weeks, without oxygen.

Now, maybe you should go back to school, and pay attention when you do.

Cheers,
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Nov 29, 2012 - 08:42pm PT
alas, alas.

i worked with richard gage, founder of ae911truth, for about a year. we co-authored a technical treatment of WTC evidence, published about three years ago by global outlook, a canadian activist magazine.

we go 'round and 'round on ST every time someone raises this issue. i'd like to know who the hell that "wyoming" guy is who posted this thread originally, then zapped it. i think most of us ST regulars know how each other stands on this. dr. F is what you call a LIHOP. lotsa people stick by the government story, but it seems we have a healthy number here who at least have come to question things.

i don't like to tangle with this subject any more unless the discussion gets halfway serious. i can tell you that gage generally convinces most of his audiences--to the tune of about 90 percent--if he can get you to listen to him for an hour. little picky back-and-forth about this aspect and that isn't a serious discussion. 9/11 evidence is quite extensive, and just when you think you can melt steel in your backyard with a propane torch, someone will come along and talk about extensive thermite in WTC dust. the many technical, forensic aspects have to be taken as a whole. if you have the brains to serve on a jury, you ought to be able to wade through it.

one thing for sure is not going to happen. the government won't do anything except stonewall this. fyi, there were no plans originally for a 9/11 commission. it was called very reluctantly in response to a number of 9/11 widows from new jersey, who were lobbying for it. what they got for their trouble was a nonsensical commission, managed by a bush toady, with keene and hamilton as frontmen, who have since called their own work a miserable failure. want to go around with all that again? don't make me laugh. calling for a "new investigation with subpoena power", which seems to be a common mantra, is a lot like calling for world peace.

i like to note two important omissions by the first 9/11 commission. building 7 not even mentioned. can you imagine? and then there was norman mineta's testimony, recorded but not reported. mineta, a cabinet-level official present in the white house bunker, apparently witnessed dick cheney ordering a stand-down of the pentagon's defenses during the many minutes of lead time before the alleged crash.

hey, i don't blame anyone for not wanting to believe any of this. it really does disturb most livable notions about the world we have to live in.


haha, granite--mag wheels. magnesium. remember magnesium ribbon? or did you doctor that photo up with white metal from your model airplanes?
g-tech

Trad climber
Oakland!
Nov 29, 2012 - 08:46pm PT
This might help you peopele that believe the NIST report.
http://youtu.be/MmbPh3u7_q0
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 29, 2012 - 08:48pm PT
hey, i don't blame anyone for not wanting to believe any of this. it really does disturb most livable notions about the world we have to live in.

I think this is why people are so scared to discuss it...
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 29, 2012 - 09:01pm PT
g-tech, I never get tired of watching that video.

I especially like the puppy dog part.


But I'm not much of an apple pie guy, so I think the whole thing is
Cracker Jack.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 29, 2012 - 09:08pm PT
mag wheels. magnesium. remember magnesium ribbon? or did you doctor that photo up with white metal from your model airplanes?

Mag rims don't have magnesium anymore. And if that rim was magnesium it would have burned, not melted.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 29, 2012 - 09:11pm PT
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 29, 2012 - 09:15pm PT
Yeah that was a good job... nice pay good hours great catering.

I remember it like it was yesterday... We had 27 crews wiring those building for almost 3 months. Hundreds of folks and I gotta say the Caterers where on top of their game.

Last day none other than Cheney himself stopped by to thank us personally. We had steak that day...mmmm. Got a nice referall too.. apparently the firm was expecting a lot of upcoming work overseas...

Ahhh good times...

Sorry about the mess..

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 29, 2012 - 09:16pm PT
There should be something in this thread that's worthwhile.



monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 29, 2012 - 09:19pm PT
Fantastic!
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 29, 2012 - 09:26pm PT
Climbski2 is lying

I found more Cheney transcripts, all those involved are Dead!!!

Cheney goes on to say
Hey George!
listen to this, I have the perfect plan to rig the TT with explosives, and then eliminate all the evidence!!

We have two crews, one crew drigs the first tower, and the other crew does the other TT and B7

during 911, The first crew watches from the second tower, coordinating the demolition charges on the first tower
rejoicing in their good work as the first tower goes down
But the second crew in B7 gets pissed at the first crew, so they bring the second tower down
and I (Cheney) pulls the plug on B7 after it's all done, to take out the second crew
Genius, right?

Oh my god. it's so complicated, maybe someone can explain it to me
Jay Wood

Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
Nov 29, 2012 - 09:32pm PT
I'd like to point out that the freeway overpass pictured above by graniteclimber,

which was heated by a burning tanker truck carrying 8,000 gallons of gasoline directly below,

slammed down onto the elevated freeway below, which was damaged, but DID NOT COLLAPSE.

Nor did any adjacent structures or buildings.



Carry on.....

Randal Hassen

Gym climber
Sacramento
Nov 29, 2012 - 09:34pm PT
Granites a Tool.

He just posts, doesn't even know how to communicate.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 29, 2012 - 09:41pm PT
There is a conspiracy to blame Bush and Cheney to protect the real conspirators.

























































































Hamsters are behind this. They crawled unseen through air ducts and wired up little button sized pieces of thermite.


k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 29, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
Yes, the aluminum melted, the steel nuts still look fine though.

Nice pic of the Falls though. Give credit where it's due.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 29, 2012 - 09:56pm PT
Nah Cheney is cool. Nice guy actually. He was a bit paranoid at first.

He realized after a few years that we could talk all we wanted about the work cause no one would believe us anyway.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 29, 2012 - 09:58pm PT
Do not be fooled by the innocent appearances. He is more dangerous than any terrorist from the Middle East!








































































Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 30, 2012 - 11:44am PT
Come on back boys
This thread is Fun!

Thermite residue and micro metal sphericals, Yea!
locker

Social climber
Douchebag Central
Nov 30, 2012 - 11:46am PT


LOL!!! @ this post...

GUD one!!!...

...

Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 11:48am PT
I dunno. After that cute hamster shot can we really get back on topic? ;)
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 30, 2012 - 11:51am PT
TAKE THESE TOWERS DOWN, BISHES!

Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 11:59am PT
Hey doc, did you ever find any evidence of another high rise collapsing as a result of fire??
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 12:55pm PT
Doc thought you wanted to talk 9/11?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
Actually, Big Mike, I do believe that every high rise tower has collapsed as a result of fire after a giant airliner has crashed into it!
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:18pm PT
True that Ron...
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
Not only that, but every all-steel high rise tower that a jetliner has crashed into has collaped.

And of course, we know that if it hasn't ever happened in history, it can't possibly happen.

Actually, I do believe the early Egyptians were building all steel highrise buildings, but they had a few collapse from fire and switched to pyramids.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
Has there ever been one that wasn't rigged with explosives at the time? ;)
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
Big Mike
Tell me of one Building that was rigged with explosives, then had a plane crash into it, and then did controlled explosive demolition of the building an hour later.

It's impossible, it's crazy talk, it's completely ludacris!!!

And the big question never answered is Why???

Why would they risk it?
What if something went wrong?

The amount of work to do it would be a million more times that of the work needed to let the planes just take the buildings down themselves.

It has been proven over and over that the planes alone could do it. That is all that is needed by a skeptic to make is conclusions on.

Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation is always the correct explanation
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
And of Course, the Real Reason that 911 Happened!



Credit: Dr. F.

All arguments point directly at Bush being the cause it all.
locker

Social climber
Douchebag Central
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:38pm PT


I MUST be fuked up because everytime I look at this shot it gets me laughing...

...

The face fits perfectly to what you originally wrote...

LOL!!!...
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
And, what about building 7, Dr. F?

The principle is often incorrectly summarized as "other things being equal, a simpler explanation is better than a more complex one." In practice, the application of the principle often shifts the burden of proof in a discussion.[a] The razor states that one should proceed to simpler theories until simplicity can be traded for greater explanatory power. The simplest available theory need not be most accurate. Philosophers point out also that the exact meaning of simplest may be nuanced.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
Same deal. Impact damage and fire.
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
On Bldg. 7? What impact.
It fell perfectly into its footprint just like the other 2.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
Er, um, a 110 story collapsing tower?

And no, none collapsed perfectly into their own footprint. Otherwise, how could WTC 1 damage WTC 7 so significantly, taking out 10 stories of one of it's corners.

Even WTC 7 collapse damaged a nearby building so significantly it was abandoned and slated for removal.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
F i was just trollin a bit. I don't know what really happened but I do know it looks fishy and have a hard time believing that 1700+ plus engineers have been completely duped by their "leader"

That hamster post was super funny...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
How many engineers worked for Adolph Hitler?
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
Were they invited to do independent research
Before they "joined hitler"?? Doubt it.
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:53pm PT
There may have been some broken windows and other minor damage, but #7 did not take thak kind of a hit. Not enough to make it colapse the way it did. There's plenty of video out there of it.

No large buildings outside of the two turquoise zones in the map to the right suffered more than superficial damage

http://www.wtc7.net/location.html
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:58pm PT
LOL, mssing 10 floors of one corner is minor damage.

Glad you guys don't design high rise buildings.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 30, 2012 - 01:58pm PT
Thanks for asking!!

Debunking 911 has a great article on Building 7
http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm


[quote]Structure Magazine explains one probable cause of the WTC 7 collapse. "Single Point of Failure: How the Loss of One Column May Have Led to the Collapse of WTC 7"

http://www.structuremag.org/Archives/2007-11/SF-WTC7-Gilsanz-Nov07.pdf[/quote]
Conspiracy theorists say World Trade Center 7 is the best proof for controlled demolition because it wasn't hit by airliners and only had a few fires. They also claim that there was a confession from the building owner who said he "pulled" it. But this is deceptive because while building 7 wasn't hit by an airliner, it was hit by the large perimeter columns of the Tower collapse. It was 400 ft away but the towers were more than 1300 ft tall. As the tower peeled open, it easily tilted over to reach building 7. Below is evidence showing that conspiracy theorists are wrong.

As you can see from the graphic below, all the buildings just as far away from both towers as WTC7 were hit. The others were either very short buildings which didn't have to support a massive load above or had no fire. Only Building 7 had unfought fires and the massive load of 40 stories above them.

with photos!!
Credit: Dr. F.

Credit: Dr. F.
B7 damage

Credit: Dr. F.
after it fell



More links debunking explosives on B7

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-09-11/

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0427-29.htm
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Nov 30, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
Thanks for the links, I'll look into it.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 30, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
Stop chewing on the thermite! You will need that to complete your mission.























































































Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Nov 30, 2012 - 02:49pm PT









photo not found
Missing photo ID#276310
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Nov 30, 2012 - 02:51pm PT
Alan Sabrosky, a former U.S. Army War College instructor, and Andreas Buhling, a German Intel expert, both say that MOSSAS, Israel's foreign Intelligence Service, masterminded the 9/11 attacks to insure that the U.S. will be their permanent ally in the Middle East. The evidence they present is as follows:

(1) A decorated soldier of the 1976 Yom Kipur War, living on the East Coast, went to a park to collect cuttings, and overheard a conversation in Hebrew, with words to the effect: "The Twin Towers are coming down. The Arabs are so stupid, they don't know we are using them."

(2) A group of men were seen by multiple witnesses taking videos of the collapsing Twin Towers, in a very celebratory fashion, High-fiving each other for a job well done. They were picked up and questioned by the FBI and held for sometime, before Israel secured their release.

(3) These men worked for Urban Moving Systems, a MOSSAD front company staffed almost entirely by Israeli Nationals. After the 9/11 attacks, a lone American employee of the Company reported that they were all celebrating the attacks.

(4) The FBI arrested around 70 Israelis who "Seemed somehow connected to the attacks. No such support staff of Muslims was ever found

(5) Many Intel officials think that Bin Laden's original statement that he was not involved in the 9/11 attacks to be true, with the later "confession video" a fake.

(6) Six of the supposed hijackers are still alive, having been victims of identity theft. Many Intel people say that this could have been carried out in multiple countries only by an Intel service backed by a soverign state.

(7) MOSSAD agents stayed in an Apt. in FL opposite the hijackers; evidence suggests that they were under the impression that the planes would be flown to another country.

(8) The hijackers were not devout Muslims, as they spent time before 9/11 at the Strip in Las Vegas. The Koran on the front seat of a van is so obviously a plant,done for political effect by those who wanted the attacks associated with Islam.

There is more evidence still, but don't want to ramble on.

All the inside conspiracy theories suit MOSSAD well as they confuse people and obscure the truth.
(5)
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Nov 30, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
You all have belief systems that I find to be utterly fascinating.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 30, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
Thanks McHale
It wasn't labeled B7, I just thought it was



What about the Black Boxes??
I heard they found them, then said they didn't.
Whatz up with that, I want to hear what's on them, we all do.


more Hampsters
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 30, 2012 - 04:31pm PT
Nice towers.






Time to pull them.
















































































For a job like this, we will use hamsters with helmets.

Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 04:40pm PT
+1000 hamsters! ;)

Lol!
Chris2

Trad climber
Nov 30, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
http://video.cpt12.org/video/2270078138

1500 engineers, men/women some with Phd.s, educated, not political... all saying the same thing; the official version of what happened that day can not be true. I appreciate this video as they do not come up with their own theories.

Also appreciate the psychologist at the end explaining why Americans are unable to accept this factual information.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 30, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
Black Box from Flight 77, that hit the Pentagon
Credit: Dr. F.
Apparently they can be destroyed!

The official skeptical version is that the ones from the TT were destroyed in the incident,
and the story that they were found was just BS and may have been made up to boost sales of a book.

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/The_Black_Boxes
Chief

climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2012 - 04:57pm PT
Chris2

I agree that the views expressed by those people are worthy of some consideration.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
I'd like to ask that if people are going to post large images, particularly unrelated to the discussion, that they resize them so they don't hose the text on the page, forcing us to scroll back and forth to read what people are writing

To take the time to merely disrupt what other people are discussing is presumptuous and obnoxious. Personally, that's the sort of thing I'd ban somebody for, rather than the stuff fatty got canned for. Just go somewhere else if you don't like it

Peace

Karl
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
Which one are you talking about?

Every one fits easily on my monitor, no scrolling needed.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
LOL, I find one thing wrong, therefore I get to reject anything I don't like.

Any inteligent person that studies the Pentagon incident will realize no airliner hit the Penatgon

wow, just wow.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 30, 2012 - 05:46pm PT
I'd like to ask that if people are going to post large images, particularly unrelated to the discussion, that they resize them so they don't hose the text on the page, forcing us to scroll back and forth to read what people are writing

To take the time to merely disrupt what other people are discussing is presumptuous and obnoxious. Personally, that's the sort of thing I'd ban somebody for, rather than the stuff fatty got canned for. Just go somewhere else if you don't like it

Peace

Karl

I'm not going to resize Reilly's photo and it doesn't cause any scrolling unless you're reading this on your phone.

Nobody has posted an obnoxiously large image to disrupt the flow of text yet although that would have been easy to do if that anyone intended.

Is this what you are looking for?

http://onlyhdwallpapers.com/wallpaper/explosions_mushrooms_nuclear_mushroom_nuke_blast_explosion_desktop_7879x10000_wallpaper-391518.jpg
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 05:51pm PT
And they intimidated the thousands of commuters only a few hundred yards away to not tell anyone it was a missile.

Look at the security cam video. You can even see the tail if you have high enough quality.

Crap, sucked into this sh#t again.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 30, 2012 - 05:54pm PT
I found something for Locker to use.

NSFW

http://img.chan4chan.com/img/2012-05-24/1331816510718.jpg

NSFW
Chris2

Trad climber
Nov 30, 2012 - 05:55pm PT
Factual information:

http://video.cpt12.org/video/2270078138
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 05:55pm PT
The video is being shown. The security cam video.

Did you think a commuter would be holding a vid cam at the pentagon while driving?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 30, 2012 - 05:57pm PT
They never tested the debris for hamster fingerprints.
























monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 05:57pm PT
Oh, never mind.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 05:58pm PT
Chris 2. It's been posted many times but they choose to ignore it...

Gc fix your hamster link! ;)
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:00pm PT



McHale's Navy

Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle

Nov 30, 2012 - 02:55pm PT
Why is it that the people on the other side of the debate always act like they are in high school? Ot rather Grammar School or Kindergarten?


That was chief's premise.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
Actually, quite a few commuters said they say a plane.

You can't detect sarcasm?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:01pm PT
Mike, which one is broken?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:02pm PT
Is this the video? See 0:30 minutes.

http://youtu.be/6z72ZT5B7ZI
Consider the amount of flight school training needed to execute this.
grover

climber
Northern Mexico
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:02pm PT
A plane with no wings hit the pentagon....................LOL


A sheep says 'Bahahahahahahah.....'
Chris2

Trad climber
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:02pm PT
I know Mike. Their denial is also explained in the video. Sad that people we think r open minded are really so close minded.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:04pm PT
How many security cam vids do you want?

Eash are focused on an assigned location. That's all you need.

And if the vid proved the object had no wings, why the hell would they release it?

Just because a security cam taking a few low resolution shots a second is not up to your standards in capturing a distant 500mph object, doesn't mean you get to turn it into a missile.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:10pm PT
It is what it is. If you want to imagine it was a missle fired at ground level that commuters can't see, fine.

Have fun in fantasy land.

LOL, let see this tiny hole!

It is all absurd and is a story for morons.

Wasn't it you that was complaining about kindergarten arguing?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:12pm PT
Chief is upset that 9-11 conspiracy theories are met with "withering ridicule, character assassination and indignant dismissal."

I have not posted any "withering ridicule, character assassination and indignant dismissal" in response to 9-11 conspiracy theories. At least not in this threat, and at least not yet.

I am choosing to take the "high road" and give the conspiracy theorists the respect they deserve,

So you believe that 9-11 was executed by the government or the evil "Zionists." I respect your theory.

So you should respect mine as well and not ridcule it. It as valid and more plausible then your theories. I am very serious.











































































Hamsters did it.



Only hamsters could have wired every nook and crevice of the WTC buildings undetected.





















monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
Why is it that the people on the other side of the debate always act like they are in high school? Ot rather Grammar School or Kindergarten?

It is all absurd and is a story for morons.

Oh, the irony.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:22pm PT
Lol.. The last one on the previous page gc....


I think he's right!!


This is interesting... Hmmm doesn't look like a plane crash scene...

Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:27pm PT
This video? You're really going to call this a plane?

Shouldn't there be debris somewhere???
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
Good one Mike. Now show the other security cam video, that has the crossing arm in it and not a fish eye lens.

Are you now just discovering these security cam vids?
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
Where is it?? I'd love to see it

Yup
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:31pm PT
A plane?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:31pm PT
Lol, do your own work. You are the expert. I'm just a moron according to you.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:32pm PT
Why is it that the official reports don't even mention hamsters?










































Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:33pm PT
I never said that at all. You are the one talking About that video. I haven't said anything about anyone. Just discussing the subject... Look back.


Edit lol! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ best part of this thread! Way better than ponies!
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:34pm PT
You said anyone who looks at the facts and believes the 'official story', is a moron. Pretty damn clear.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:35pm PT
No Mchale's navy said that.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:36pm PT
Sorry, my bad.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:41pm PT
Not a defense. Let's see if you can find the pertinent evidence. Just google 'pentagon security vids'. Or maybe you just wanna stick to grainy fisheye vids and let your imagination go wild.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:44pm PT
Such an expert in airliner crashes, who can analyse without even being at the scene.

You know there are pics of the debris on the lawn.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:44pm PT
This one is your smoking gun?
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:44pm PT
Why is it that the people on the other side of the debate always act like they are in high school? Ot rather Grammar School or Kindergarten?
oh, the irony
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
Your getting close Big Mike. Keep looking. There's a higher def version available from slightly different angle. I think the cam is in one of those crossing guard boxes.

Still, those who want to believe it was a missile will claim it proves it was a missile, those who claim to see the tail will claim it was a plane.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 30, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
The Duck says....

Anyone who looks at the facts and believes the 'official story', is a moron.

They're so stupid they unknowingly revealed themselves in the official 911 commission report.
Only a moron would not read the whole report and not see them getting caught red handed lying in it.
Monolith is just another stupid shill deluded by the whole affair ......

In other words, everyone but the duck is stupid.

Hey Chief. great topic!
Chief

climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2012 - 06:48pm PT
Chief is upset that 9-11 conspiracy theories are met with "withering ridicule, character assassination and indignant dismissal."
I have not posted any "withering ridicule, character assassination and indignant dismissal" in response to 9-11 conspiracy theories. At least not in this threat, and at least not yet.
I am choosing to take the "high road" and give the conspiracy theorists the respect they deserve,

Graniteclimber,

I'm not upset.
My tongue in cheek comments were about the way some of us react to statements or opinions we don't agree with here on Supertopo and in particular, that we seem to be prone to drifting far from what would pass for informed discussion or civil discourse.
My comments weren't directed at you or anyone in particular and if I've given unreasonable offense, I apologize.
I reviewed your comments and struggle to see pictures of hamsters and lovely naked gals as "the high road" with respect to this topic.
The picture of Yosemite Falls is edifyingly off topic though.

Fascinating stuff here.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:01pm PT
More Hampsters!!!!
That last one!, did you look at it's cute little hands!!!!

But it might have been a mouse,
More Mouse!!!!
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:02pm PT
I reviewed your comments and struggle to see pictures of hamsters and lovely naked gals as "the high road" with respect to this topic.

Ya, but they are funny! ;) bump is a bump right?
Chief

climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2012 - 07:02pm PT
Some of Graniteclimber's "higher ground"
Off topic but most edifying!

I found something for Locker to use.

NSFW

http://img.chan4chan.com/img/2012-05-24/1331816510718.jpg

NSFW
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:03pm PT
which question bro?
I will answer
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:05pm PT
Who said that?

I can't find it either. MN seems the first to say it.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:05pm PT
I'm not sure what this means

Let's see: airliner hits bldg, waits for it to collapse (45 minutes) and open up, then goes inside when all is clear. Yeah, that's it!

please rephrase the question
Thanks in advance
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:06pm PT
MN seems to be creating strawmen, then bravely knocking them down.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:08pm PT


I see a tail with smoke streaming behind.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
Monolith. I can't find it. Everything I can find says those are the only two videos.

Did you watch the second one I posted? If you look at the damage that the second plane that hit the towers caused, vs the damages to the pentagon, how can you even think that a plane hit it??

Your whole premise is that the planes caused so much damage to the wtc buildings that they failed, even though they were designed to withstand said impact. Then another plane somehow miraculously hits the pentagon and it only made a hole, no major fire damage....

That's wildly inconsistent.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
I put a gif of it above.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
That's just a 5 frame edit.. Who knows what's been done to it, but it looks more like a f16 or fighter jet than an airliner. Those toll booths are pretty close to the pentagon too, so an airliner wouldn't be that small...
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:15pm PT
True, but there will only be 1 frame of the plane, as it's going 500mph.

Sorry it's not up to your standards. Dream away.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
The answer to the question is:

the plane hit the wall and created the hole
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:19pm PT
Prove it..
I heard of this BS story, but has not been verified.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:22pm PT
The structure collapsed about 45 minutes after the crash.

Here's some composite pics before the collapse.





Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
It was those Islamic Hamster terrorists
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:28pm PT
McHale
Sorry, I don't have all the answers
I'm just hanging in there as best I can

My only point is that No explosives were used to bring any of the buildings down.
And that would include: it was a jet liner that hit the Pentagon, not a missile

I'm not sure on most of the other controversies
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
Chief,

It is disrespectful of you to dismiss the hamster conspiracy theory so offhandedly. You should give the hamster conspiracy theory the respect it deserves. It is just as valid as the other conspiracy theories.

The gals were for Locker and to not have anything to do with the 9-11 attack, but I'm glad you enjoyed them.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:33pm PT
Damn, Dr. F's giving his hamsters assault rifles. I'd better start arming my team.



























































































Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:33pm PT
Thanks Mchale's. just posting it like i see it.

Monolith How can you compare the damage between wtc and the pentagon if you contend that an airliner hit it?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:35pm PT
Someone's ruining my hamster post with wide pictures! LOL
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:36pm PT
Entirely different architectures.

One's a 110 story all steel structure.

The other is much shorter concrete structure.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:37pm PT
Ya but this one was on topic so I think we're in the clear...

Shouldn't there be some wreckage in your picture?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:39pm PT
Whose to say there isn't?

How did you become such an expert on crashes?

What do you want to see? A tail sticking out of the building?

You will find pics of people picking up airliner debris on the lawn.

Yeah, I know, it's all faked up.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
Never said I was but I've seen pics of debris fields from plane crashes before and this one is confusing...

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:42pm PT
This wasn't an open field.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
Just a lawn. Point is based on the normal destruction a plane causes when it crashes, this one just doesn't fit for me. Your entitled to your own opinion of course.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:49pm PT
No more large photos
My lap top makes me scroll
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:50pm PT
Credit: Dr. F.
Please carry on
Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:53pm PT
The conspiracy theorists don't have any compelling facts, only questions, and the idea that the Bush administration was competent enough to do what they are supposed to have done and not have any leaks makes about as much sense as the hamster theory.



http://www.csicop.org/si/show/the_9_11_truth_movement_the_top_conspiracy_theory_a_decade_later/


http://www.postlibertarian.com/2012/02/why-im-not-a-911-truther-the-incompetence-argument/
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
Dr F That's the leader!!!!
Chief

climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2012 - 07:55pm PT
I'll never master this but it seems worth trying.

The Four Agreements, Don Miguel Ruiz's Code For Life

Be impeccable with your word - Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love.

Don’t take anything personally - Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering.

Don’t make assumptions - Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.

Always do your best - Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse and regret.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:55pm PT
what all these niceties assiduously avoid is probably the most damning evidence of all, that of time. the trade towers fell in less than 15 seconds, building 7 in less than 10. it's called near free fall speed, and the only way that can happen is with an instantaneous liquidation of a building's skeleton, as is done in controlled demolition. any other scenario involves more time, really, a heckuva lot more.
Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
regarding "free-fall"

How could the buildings fall so quickly? It’s been explained very well in the technical literature by Northwestern’s Zdenek Bazant, PhD, and others (see, for example, Bazant 2008). I’ve developed a simpler physics model of the progressive collapses that agrees quite well with the main points of Bazant’s more rigorous results (Thomas 2010b). Here are some of my findings:

Each floor of the towers contained over two million kilograms of mass. The gravitational potential energy of a standing tower with twelve-foot floors extending upward 110 stories can be calculated straightforwardly; it comes to over 420 billion joules of energy, or the equivalent of 100 tons of TNT per tower. This energy, which was released completely during the collapses, is more than the energy of some of the smaller nuclear weapons in the U.S. arsenal, such as the W-48 (72 tons TNT) (Sublette 2006). This is where the energy required to break columns, pulverize concrete, and expel debris through windows came from. (Truthers often compare such expulsions of air and debris, visible several floors below the collapse fronts, to “squibs,” explosive devices often used in demolitions. However, they are readily explained by pressure changes as the towers, acting like a gigantic bicycle pump being compressed, collapsed.)

The Twin Towers used a “tube within a tube” architectural design, which provided considerable open office space in the interiors of the Towers. Much of the structural support was provided by a dense grouping of thick central core columns in the interior and the perimeter walls on the outside. When the towers began to collapse, large parts of the inner cores (called “the Spires” in 9/11 Truth circles) were actually left standing, briefly, before they, too, toppled over. The perimeter walls were largely forced to peel outward in large sections, producing the iconic images of Ground Zero with which we’re all familiar. Between the outer perimeter and the inner core, the weight of the upper sections plowed through one floor after another, breaking the floor connection brackets and support columns, pulverizing concrete decks, and gaining momentum and mass with each additional floor failure. Had the buildings been constructed differently (the Port Authority was allowed to circumvent some existing New York buildings requirements for the Towers), the collapses might not have even happened (Young 2007).

Even the 9/11 Truth movement’s most eminent physicists are confused about the basic principle of the difference between static and dynamic forces. A piece of paper, taped across a jar’s opening, will support a heavy coin such as a quarter indefinitely (static load). However, if the coin is dropped from just a few inches up, it will tear right through the paper (dynamic load). Given the information at hand—for example, the mass of the upper section of the north tower (fifty-eight million kilograms), the distance it fell (3.8 meters, about twelve feet), and the stiffness/rigidity of the lower structure itself, the dynamic force imparted on the lower section can be estimated as some thirty times the upper portion’s weight. This is many times the lower structure’s safety margin, which explains why it was quickly overwhelmed.

Once progressive collapse began, there were decreasing time intervals of free fall (between floors), punctuated by very brief, incredibly violent collisions—decelerations—of the upper mass, for each floor in turn. There was resistance at every step of the collapse, as the upper section collided with and incorporated each floor below. Conservation of momentum shows that the reductions in falling speed were slight as each floor was impacted, going as the ratio of floors before to floors after (e.g. 14/15, or about 94 percent, for the first impact). Accordingly, the upper section fell from rest to about 19 mph, was slowed down to 18 mph by the first impact, continued to fall until a speed of 26 mph was reached, was then slowed down to 24 mph by another impact, and so on. While the first plunge lasted about nine-tenths of a second, the upper section took only four-tenths of a second to fall through the next floor, three-tenths of a second for the next one, and so on until the bottom floors, which were crushed at a rate of just seven-hundredths of a second each, at speeds of over 100 mph. Yes, there was resistance at every step, as many tons of structural steel was demolished; yet the entire process, like an avalanche, lasted only fifteen to twenty seconds, about 50 to 100 percent longer than true “free fall” would have lasted.


from:
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/the_9_11_truth_movement_the_top_conspiracy_theory_a_decade_later/
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
These guys don't have any compelling facts???
http://ae911truth.org/evidence.html

Why would professionals put their careers at risk for this? Who said the government did it? Why did the sec destroy the evidence in the insider trading scandle that occurred before the attack.

You're right. I do have a lot of questions.. Why aren't there answers?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 30, 2012 - 08:02pm PT
Why aren't there answers?

Because it is strictly on a Need To Know basis.

Besides, you're Canadian.
Chief

climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
That last one's a real winner.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 30, 2012 - 08:04pm PT
Lennox, regarding Hamster "burrowing activity"


Hamster
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Hamsters are rodents belonging to the subfamily Cricetinae. The subfamily contains about 25 species, classified in six or seven genera.[1]
Hamsters are crepuscular animals which burrow underground in the daylight to avoid being caught by predators. Their diets include a variety of foods, including dried food, berries, nuts, fresh fruits and vegetables. In the wild, they feed primarily on seeds, fruits and greens, and will occasionally eat burrowing insects.[2] They have an elongated pouch on each side of their heads that extends to their shoulders, which they stuff full of food to be stored, brought back to the colony or to be eaten later.
Hamster behavior varies depending on their environment, genetics, and interaction with people. Because they are easy to breed in captivity, hamsters are often used as laboratory animals in more economically developed countries. Hamsters have also become established as popular small house pets,[3] and are sometimes accepted even in areas where other rodents are disliked, and their typically solitary nature can reduce the risk of excessive litters developing in households.

Although the Syrian hamster or golden hamster (Mesocricetus auratus) was first described scientifically in 1839, researchers were not able to successfully breed and domesticate hamsters until 1939.[3] The entire laboratory and pet populations of Syrian hamsters appear to be descendants of a single brother-sister pairing. These littermates were captured and imported in 1930 from Aleppo [Syria] by Israel Aharoni, a zoologist of the University of Jerusalem.[4] In Jerusalem, the hamsters bred very successfully. Years later, animals of this original breeding colony were exported to the USA, where Syrian hamsters became one of the most popular pets and laboratory animals. Comparative studies of domestic and wild Syrian hamsters have shown reduced genetic variability in the domestic strain. However, the differences in behavioral, chronobiological, morphometrical, hematological and biochemical parameters are relatively small and fall into the expected range of interstrain variations in other laboratory animals.[5]
Early literature
In 1774, Friedrich Gabriel Sulzer, a companion of Johann-Wolfgang von Goethe, devoted a whole academic monography in the domain of social sciences and natural history to hamsters, entitled "An approach to a natural history of the hamster" ("Versuch einer Naturgeschichte des Hamsters"). In several instances, he used the hamster to document the equal rights of all beings, including Homo sapiens.[6]
Etymology

The name "hamster" is a loanword from the German, which itself derives from earlier Old High German hamustro. It is possibly related to Old Russian choměstrǔ, which is either a blend of the root of Russian khomiak "hamster" and a Baltic word (cf. Lithuanian staras "hamster")[7] or of Persian origin (cf. Av hamaēstar "oppressor").[8]
Description



Roborovski hamster
Hamsters are typically stout-bodied, with tails shorter than body length, and have small, furry ears, short, stocky legs, and wide feet. They have thick, silky fur, which can be long or short, colored black, grey, honey, white, brown, yellow, red, or a mix, depending on the species. Two species of hamster belonging to the genus Phodopus, Campbell's dwarf hamster (Phodopus campbelli) and the Djungarian hamster (Phodopus sungorus), and two of the genus Cricetulus, the Chinese striped hamster (Cricetulus barabensis) and the Chinese hamster (Cricetulus griseus) have a dark stripe down their heads to their tails. The species of genus Phodopus are the smallest, with bodies 5.5 to 10.5 cm (2.2 to 4.1 in) long; the largest is the European hamster (Cricetus cricetus), measuring up to 34 cm (13.4 in) long, not including a short tail of up to 6 cm (2.4 in). The Angora hamster, also known as the long-haired or teddy bear hamster, which is a type of the golden hamster is the second-largest hamster breed, measuring up to 18 cm (7.1 in) long.[3]


Yawning white Syrian hamster showing large incisors
The hamster tail can be difficult to see, as it is usually not very long (about 1/6 the length of the body), with the exception of the Chinese dwarf hamster, which has a tail the same length as the body. One rodent characteristic that can be highly visible in hamsters is their sharp incisors; they have an upper pair and lower pair which grow continuously throughout life, so must be regularly worn down. Hamsters are very flexible, but their bones are somewhat fragile. They are extremely susceptible to rapid temperature changes and drafts, as well as extreme heat or cold.
Senses
Hamsters have poor eyesight; they are nearsighted and colorblind.[citation needed] To compensate for their poor sight when in unfamiliar territory, hamsters have scent glands on their flanks (and abdomens in Chinese and dwarf hamsters). A hamster rubs these areas of its body against various objects, and leaves a trail of smells to follow to return to its home den.[citation needed] Hamsters also use their sense of smell to identify pheromones and gender, and locate food. They are also particularly sensitive to high-pitched noises and can hear and communicate in the ultrasonic range.[4]
Diet
Hamsters are omnivores. Although they can survive on a diet of exclusively commercial hamster food, other items, such as vegetables, fruits, seeds, and nuts, can be given, but these should be removed before they become rotten. Hamsters in the Middle East have been known to hunt in packs to find insects for food.[9] Hamsters are hindgut fermenters and must eat their own feces (coprophagy) to recover nutrients digested in the hindgut, but not absorbed.[1]
Behavior

A behavioral characteristic of hamsters is food hoarding. They carry food in their spacious cheek pouches to their underground storage chambers. When full, the cheeks can make their heads double, or even triple in size.[1]
Social behavior


Hamsters fighting
Most hamsters are strictly solitary. If housed together, acute and chronic stress may occur,[5] and they may fight fiercely, sometimes fatally. Some dwarf hamster species may tolerate conspecifics. Russian hamsters form close, monogamous bonds with their mates, and if separated, they may become very depressed. This happens especially in males. Males will become inactive, eat more, and even show some behavioral changes similar to some types of depression in humans.[citation needed] This can even cause obesity in the hamster.
Chronobiology
Evidence conflicts as to whether hamsters are crepuscular or nocturnal. Khunen writes, "Hamsters are nocturnal rodents who [sic] are active during the night...",[5] but others have written that because hamsters live underground during most of the day, only leaving their burrows about an hour before sundown and then returning when it gets dark, their behavior is primarily crepuscular.[citation needed] Fritzsche indicated although some species have been observed to show more nocturnal activity than others, they are all primarily crepuscular.[4]
Wild Syrian hamsters are true hibernators and allow their body temperature to fall close to ambient temperature (but not below 20°C). This kind of thermoregulation diminishes the metabolic rate to about 5% and helps the animal to considerably reduce the need for food during the winter.[5] Hamsters may not hibernate per se, but instead reduce the rate of a number of physiological systems, such as breathing and heart rate, for short periods of time. These periods of torpor (defined as "a state of mental or physical inactivity or insensibility"[10]) can last up 10 days.[citation needed]
Burrowing behavior
All hamsters are excellent diggers, constructing burrows with one or more entrances, with galleries connected to chambers for nesting, food storage, and other activities.[1] They use their fore- and hindlegs, as well as their snouts and teeth, for digging. In the wild, the burrow buffers extreme ambient temperatures, offers relatively stable climatic conditions, and protects against predators. Syrian hamsters dig their burrows generally at a depth of 0.7 m.[11] A burrow includes a steep entrance pipe (4–5 cm in diameter), a nesting and a hoarding chamber and a blind-ending branch for urination. Laboratory hamsters have not lost their ability to dig burrows; in fact, they will do this with great vigor and skill if they are provided with the appropriate substrate.[5]
Wild hamsters will also appropriate tunnels made by other mammals; the Djungarian hamster, for instance, uses paths and burrows of the pika.

Why is no mention of hamsters made in the 9-11 Commission Report? Why were the attack sites never tested for hamster feces?

Who is behind the cover-up?
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 30, 2012 - 08:07pm PT
Oh boy!!

we have zeroed in on the real perpetrators....
and the evil forces are trying to shut us down

It was Hamsters all the time
Credit: Dr. F.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 30, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
This is the section I wanted to highlight:

All hamsters are excellent diggers, constructing burrows with one or more entrances, with galleries connected to chambers for nesting, food storage, and other activities.[1] They use their fore- and hindlegs, as well as their snouts and teeth, for digging. In the wild, the burrow buffers extreme ambient temperatures, offers relatively stable climatic conditions, and protects against predators. Syrian hamsters dig their burrows generally at a depth of 0.7 m.[11] A burrow includes a steep entrance pipe (4–5 cm in diameter), a nesting and a hoarding chamber and a blind-ending branch for urination. Laboratory hamsters have not lost their ability to dig burrows; in fact, they will do this with great vigor and skill if they are provided with the appropriate substrate.[5]
Wild hamsters will also appropriate tunnels made by other mammals; the Djungarian hamster, for instance, uses paths and burrows of the pika.

This is a very valuable capability. Only hamsters could have placed the explosives without detection.



















































Hamsters can climb also.

Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 08:18pm PT
Lol.. Nice quote Perry. Words to live by. Thanks.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 30, 2012 - 08:27pm PT
Damn! I missed that part. I was too focussed on their burrowing abilities that let them go through the air ducts and crawlspaces of the WTC buildings for months.

They infillitrated from Syria by way of Jerusalem. So there is a connection both to the Arabs and the Israelis!






































Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 30, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
Granite, maybe you didn't know that there were also Special Ops guys involved...

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Credit: Reilly
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
Hey! That's a Prairy dog!
grover

climber
Northern Mexico
Nov 30, 2012 - 08:30pm PT

This one is dedicated to all you non-believers!


dirtbag

climber
Nov 30, 2012 - 08:35pm PT
Credit: dirtbag

Foil hat or not, I'd do her.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
Covered already. Huge hole in one side caused it to magically fall in it lts own footprint..

What about the underground fires? The shots of them pulling out the molten steel and concrete are priceless. How does a fire burn underground like that without an oxygen source?
Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Nov 30, 2012 - 08:37pm PT
When it comes to god and religion, I'm agnostic, likewise when it comes to the 9-11 conspiracy vs the 9-11 commission version I'm not a fanatic nor completely invested in the latter narrative; the "facts" in McHale's link above are at odds with the "facts" in my link above, so we each have our fairy-tale, but I only accept mine as a more probable explanation, unlike many truthers who zealously believe they know the truth.


Since each side can cite contradictory "facts," the incompetence argument also leads me to accept the official version as more probable:

http://www.postlibertarian.com/2012/02/why-im-not-a-911-truther-the-incompetence-argument/


edit:
But then the commission was probably incompetent also, so I don't accept their report as "the word of god".
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 30, 2012 - 08:37pm PT
Thanks for that video, Grover. This one came on right afterwards. It is this thread in a nutshell.






Watch this video and ask yourself, "Who is Fluffy Kitten? What did he know and when did he know it?"
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 08:38pm PT
Here is one of 911 truth's expert explaining why the towers should not have collapsed.




Seriously, you can't make this sh#t up. The funniest, dumbest stuff from an expert.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 30, 2012 - 08:38pm PT
Dirtbag, if you want to see her, or someone like her anyway (same difference), WITHOUT the foil hat just check on NSFW link I posted for Locker.
Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Nov 30, 2012 - 08:42pm PT
regarding WTC7:


Claim Three:
“Tower 7, which wasn’t hit by a plane, collapsed neatly into its own footprint.”

The enigma of WTC 7 is becoming increasingly popular in Truther circles. We’re told that it wasn’t hit by a plane and was subjected to just a few “small office fires.” Yet it collapsed anyway, late in the afternoon of September 11, “falling neatly into its own footprint at freefall acceleration, just like a normal controlled demolition.” In particular, Truthers point to a brief period of freefall (2.25 seconds) that was confirmed by NIST in its WTC 7 final report (Sunder 2008; NIST 2010) as proving that the building was purposely imploded. However, WTC 7, too, fails to prove 9/11 was an “inside job”:

What is often conveniently left out of the story are actual reports from NYFD firefighters at the scene, which describe huge, raging, unfought fires on many floors at once and visible deformations and creaking of the building prior to its collapse (Roberts 2008). Tower 7 was not hit by an airplane; however, it was struck by a 110-story flaming skyscraper, the North Tower. The fires raged for hours, and they eventually caused a critical column (#79) to fail because of thermal expansion; NIST determined that this column was crucial to the building and could even be considered a design flaw. Its failure would have collapsed the building even without the other structural damage from WTC 1’s collapse and the fires.

WTC 7’s brief 2.25 seconds of free fall is now the Truthers’ best “smoking gun.” The claim usually goes like this: “The fifty-eight perimeter columns would have resisted and slowed the collapse to much less than freefall. The ‘freefall’ of WTC 7, admitted to by NIST, proves it was controlled demolition.” The problem is that this is a straw man argument. NIST found the collapse occurred in three stages. The first stage, which lasted 1.75 seconds, is when the fifty-eight perimeter columns were buckled; during this interval, the rooftop actually fell only about seven feet. This is because the breaking of columns saps speed, indeed making the collapse slower than free fall. In the second stage, which lasted 2.25 seconds, the already-buckled columns provided negligible support, and the north face of the structure free-fell about eight stories. (Try taking a plastic drinking straw and buckling it by folding it over and then pushing down on the bent straw with your hand. The crimped straw provides almost no resistance to vertical forces, and neither did the buckled columns of WTC 7.) The third stage described by NIST, which lasted 1.4 seconds, was again less-than-free fall, as the structure fell another 130 feet as it impacted more non-buckled structures toward the bottom of the building (NIST 2010).

The other half of the equation is that WTC 7 resembles a “classic controlled demolition” because it supposedly “imploded, collapsing completely, and landed in its own footprint” (Gage 2011). In actuality, it twisted and tilted over to one side as it fell, and parts of the building severely damaged two neighboring buildings (the Verizon and Fiterman Hall structures). When challenged with the obvious fact that Tower 7 spilled far outside its footprint, however, Truthers will often change their tune and start saying that any resemblance to a natural collapse is part of the cover-up.


from:

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/the_9_11_truth_movement_the_top_conspiracy_theory_a_decade_later/
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 30, 2012 - 08:42pm PT
Monolith, that video proves that the WTC towers could have been saved by positioning a small cardboard box under it.


And killing the hamsters.

What do you put in cardboard boxes? Hamsters!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 30, 2012 - 08:42pm PT
How does a fire burn underground like that without an oxygen source?

Mike, coal mines have been burning in Poland, Ukraine, and Pennsylvania for decades.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 30, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
Reilly, I almost posted a pic of a coal mine fire yesterday to have him accuse me of posting off topic again.

Logic will not get you very far.

dirtbag

climber
Nov 30, 2012 - 08:56pm PT
Graniteclimber, that photo you linked to sure does warm my heart.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 30, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
I hope it did more than that. LOL
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 09:02pm PT
Not all 9-11 theories are plausible and some may even be disinformation spead to discredit the study.

The "incompetence" theory applies to the highjackers as well. Some unbelievable crack flying went into hitting the Pentagon and these guys all pulled off grabbing a plan with little weapons and 3 hit their targets.

See, all a few at very high levels would have had to do is know it was coming (or put the idea in their head) and help it happen, like ordering those war games that took fighters away from the area and put false blips on the radar screens. I don't know up or down on the demolition theories but follow the money, the highjackers visas, the war games, and such and you know we're being lied to.

So let's find out for real

Peace

Karl
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 09:07pm PT
Some unbelievable crack flying went into hitting the Pentagon

Not really. After the wide turn, they had a long straight run into the building.

Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Nov 30, 2012 - 09:08pm PT
McHale,

I understand, and when I delve into some of the truther "facts" they do create a sense that the official version does not add up, but their "facts" from reputable sources are at odds with other "facts" from reputable sources that the truther debunkers put forward.

My sense of what is most probable isn't mathematical, it's a subjective assessment based on what I've read from both sides, but whichever narrative one accepts, I don't think he or she is a dupe or a sheeple; I just think one should usually avoid swallowing either the red or blue pill and becoming a zealous fanatic.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 09:09pm PT
That's it. I give up. Gc wins.














The hamsters did it.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Nov 30, 2012 - 09:21pm PT
since my brain got a big boost from the pain killers, I want to say something:

SERIOUSLY????
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Nov 30, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
Two words.. ..

Occam's Razor
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Nov 30, 2012 - 10:23pm PT
Picking and choosing what you want to believe is not what truth is about.

I hope this wasn't aimed at me Werner. I was being sarcastic, because you're right. It just goes in circles...
Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Nov 30, 2012 - 11:37pm PT


[T]here are known knowns; there are things we know that we know.
There are known unknowns; that is to say there are things that, we now know we don't know.
But there are also unknown unknowns – there are things we do not know we don't know.


—United States Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld


Certainty isn't truth. But what is likely true for anyone on either side of this, is that what today is for you a known known is actually an unknown unknown, and if you're lucky someday you'll recognize it as a known unknown.

Truthers don't believe all conspiracy theories; some must look at people espousing the belief that aliens left a massive ark on the moon as being real whack-jobs--and it must be irksome to have others treat you like that guy when you are so certain of what you "know".

And what irks me about most truthers is the tone, and often outright statements which say, "if you don't agree then you are blind, a sheeple, an idiot, a moron, in on the conspiracy, a dupe, a fool, naive, etc.," just because I can tolerate having a few more known unknowns than them.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 30, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
Certainty isn't truth. But what is likely true for anyone on either side of this, is that what today is for you a known known is actually an unknown unknown, and if you're lucky someday you'll recognize it as a known unknown.

Truthers don't believe all conspiracy theories; some must look at people espousing the belief that aliens left a massive ark on the moon as being real whack-jobs--and it must be irksome to have others treat you like that guy when you are so certain of what you "know".

And what irks me about most truthers is the tone, and often outright statements which say, "if you don't agree then you are blind, a sheeple, an idiot, a moron, in on the conspiracy, a dupe, a fool, naive, etc.," just because I can tolerate having a few more known unknowns than them.


Are you into counter-intelligence? You just twisted the most bizarre pretzel I've seen since...WTF is your f*#king point?

You can not lay down your point in a more coherent fashion? You must be psy-ops or counter-intel. WTF? Or just f*#king crazy.....
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Nov 30, 2012 - 11:45pm PT
Bluey's drunk again.



Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Nov 30, 2012 - 11:47pm PT

Are you into counter-intelligence? You just twisted the most bizarre pretzel I've seen since...WTF is your f*#king point?

You can not lay down your point in a more coherent fashion? You must be psy-ops or counter-intel. WTF? Or just f*#king crazy.....



That wasn't meant for you to read blue; sorry, I should have put a disclaimer up, such as, "do not read this if your IQ is less than 80--your head may explode."
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 1, 2012 - 12:05am PT
I almost spilled beer all over my keyboard. LOL

Add some long hair, a gut and t-shirt with a dumb slogan, and that is bluey.



bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 12:10am PT
That wasn't meant for you to read blue; sorry, I should have put a disclaimer up, such as, "do not read this if your IQ is less than 80--your head may explode.


What was your point? One sentence, genius.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 1, 2012 - 12:11am PT
Do you have enemies?

Do your enemies have hamsters?

Then you need me.

I make problems disappear.










graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 1, 2012 - 12:15am PT
What was your point? One sentence, genius.


You want the truth? You can't HANLDE the truth!







































Ok bluey, his point in one simple sentence:

Your IQ is under 80 and you don't understand much.




To this I can add: A f*#king hamster is smarter than you are.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 12:18am PT
Hey, as#@&%e! My IQ is around 130 and I wasn't f*#king talking to you.

Why do you feel a need to answer his questions? What is your f*#king problem?

EDIT:
To this I can add: A f*#king hamster is smarter than you are.


Uh, I think you just demonstrated that you have the IQ of a 6th-grader....and I'm so hurt by that comment. Hamster?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 1, 2012 - 01:00am PT
Have to watch this!

The last half is the best.


Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:14am PT

What was your point? One sentence, genius.

Okay, though some nuance might be lost. Do your limitations require a simple sentence, or can I use a complex compound sentence? Can I use any words with more than 2 or 3 syllables?

On second thought, no, I will not dumb it down for you. I like my statement above just the way it is blue. Sure, I expressed a couple fairly simple ideas and sentiments in a fairly convoluted way, even though I do appreciate the elegance of keeping it simple and concise at times.

Why don't you just find some reading comprehension lessons on-line somewhere, and read it slowly a few times.


Hey, as#@&%e! My IQ is around 130 and I wasn't f*#king talking to you . . .


. . . Uh, I think you just demonstrated that you have the IQ of a 6th-grader....and I'm so hurt by that comment. Hamster?


I would think that a person with an IQ "around 130" might know that there is no such thing as a 6th grader IQ--or else my 138 in 4th grade would mean my IQ would be over 200 now : )
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:19am PT
The footage was faked?? Very possible.. Would explain how you detonate a building that had a plane run into it... Or didn't hmmm maybe the hamsters faked the footage... The plot thickens....

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 1, 2012 - 02:44am PT
I don't think the video above proves anything. I imagine news choppers were only allowed to go so close so they hovered back and forth where they had a view

The whole idea that no planes hit the buildings is laughable

Peace

Karl
locker

Social climber
Douchebag Central
Dec 1, 2012 - 11:19am PT


Hamsters should never climb while under the influence...

photo not found
Missing photo ID#276414
...

locker

Social climber
Douchebag Central
Dec 1, 2012 - 11:21am PT



"Hamsters??? I'll be right over!!!"...





























































...

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Dec 1, 2012 - 11:44am PT
Locker...Are you insinuating that Richard Gere was behind 911 ...?
locker

Social climber
Douchebag Central
Dec 1, 2012 - 11:53am PT


No!!!...

I am suggesting that something was behind Richard Gere...

:-)

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 1, 2012 - 12:51pm PT
Trust locker to bring that up!

Gerbils, hamsters - same difference.


http://www.snopes.com/risque/homosex/gerbil.asp
Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Dec 1, 2012 - 01:27pm PT
When you focus too much on the buildings you'll get sucked into the rabbit hole. . .


. . . (aka hamster hole, aka gerbil hole, aka Richard Gere); and that would be a fate worse than death itself.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 1, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
The conspiracy theorists don't have any compelling facts, only questions, and the idea that the Bush administration was competent enough to do what they are supposed to have done and not have any leaks makes about as much sense as the hamster theory.


1) The "conspiracy theorists" have many compelling facts. The Believers just don't want to believe them. Like independent tests that show traces of explosives in the Trade Towers dust.

2) Only the Believers claim the Truthers point to the Bush admin for all the mis-deeds. Point to one Truther statement that says it was Bush. It's a crock, nobody says Bush is responsible except those who care not to look at the facts.


I liked the video that Werner posted a while back, but then disappeared off the internet, it was pretty darn interesting. You know, the one that showed a missile hitting the pentagon, and then a dressed up cruise missile. Why did that thing disappear anyway??

Anyway, carry on. Ain't nobody gonna change their minds here...
Randal Hassen

Gym climber
Sacramento
Dec 1, 2012 - 03:53pm PT
Remember in Grade school, when kids joined in on picking on others just to fit in. Typically, is was always the not so bright type that rallied behind the insults, and teasing. It mad the kids feel good, and part of something.....Accepted.

Well, looks like a whole crew on Super Topo hasn't evolved much.


The truth is the whole thing is clearly and inside job, and part of something much bigger.

It's these bully types falling in line with the popular consensus, that perpetuate the lack of true knowledge, and understanding of what occured ad why on 9/11.

Ironically, looking back at history would hold up to a lot of what was warned prior. To bad the consensus is to fall in line and be accepted.

Go Figure. Continue on.
Chief

climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
This is remotely relevant to the original topic of this thread and touches on a few concepts that seem to make my often way too contentious existence a little easier.

Get over myself because nothing is about me.
At best I'm a bottom feeder in the fishtank of life.

Assiduously challenge my most cherished assumptions.
They're generally based on limited or flawed knowledge, bias and fear.

Prepare to be wrong, promptly admit it when I am and be OK with being corrected.
If I can't be wrong and make mistakes how do I learn anything?

Don't try to convince anybody of anything or be married to an outcome.
Not my job and ultimately disappointing.

Don't forget to laugh at myself or I'll miss one of life's funniest jokes.

One of my favourite quotes,

"Captain Anoid, I don't understand those people therefore I fear them and hate them."
Dave Schultz to me in reference to a group of Grips on the set of Long Kiss Goodnight.
locker

Social climber
Douchebag Central
Dec 1, 2012 - 06:46pm PT

You should delete this thread just for the hell of it and to start WW3...

Be fun to watch...
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Dec 1, 2012 - 06:55pm PT

Locker
A close family friend used to be RG's personal assistant.
She's had nothing to say but wonderful things about him.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Dec 1, 2012 - 06:56pm PT
Does anybody actually know anyone (personally) that actually witnessed the planes crash into the buildings???
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Dec 1, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
Everyone must have saw the second if there was one. Where is love gas? I betcha he might have something to say on it..
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 1, 2012 - 07:45pm PT
Whoa, do we have some no planers at the WTC here?

Karl, you gotta get back here and straighten up your crew. It's embarrassing.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Dec 1, 2012 - 07:46pm PT
Just speculating wildly is all. I'm open to all interpretations.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 1, 2012 - 07:49pm PT
Yes, keep an 'open' mind. All sorts of crap can fall in.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Dec 1, 2012 - 07:55pm PT
Yes, much better to believe the same old lies from the same people that have been in control since before your country was even founded. The bankers.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 1, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
Does anybody actually know anyone (personally) that actually witnessed the planes crash into the buildings???

It's self evident that after the first plane crashed into the tower, the eyes of the city and lots of cameras, private and commercial, were pointed at the towers. It's totally implausible that a plane didn't hit the second tower

and theories about no plane hitting the towers are useless, and do much to discredit 9-11 truthers

Peace

karl
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 08:16pm PT
• Many months prior to the 9/11 Terrorist Attack, a decorated former Israeli soldier in New Jersey overheard three men talking in Hebrew about the upcoming attacks. He heard several things:

o Two jets would crash into the Twin Towers

o The Arabs are “so stupid”! They don’t know how we are using them!

o “We have enough people in high places to insure the operation’s success.

o When it’s over, the Americans will know what we (Israelis) go through.

In other words, men speaking Hebrew, the native language of Israel were planning to take down the Twin Towers and blame it on Muslims, many months prior to the 9/11 attacks, in order to enlist America in their cause in the Middle East. This former soldier reported this suspicious and incrimination conversation to the authorities, but no action was taken.

Andreas von Bulow, a European intelligence expert, served on the parliamentary commission which oversees the three branches of the German secret service while a member of the Bundestag (German parliament) from 1969 to 1994, and wrote a book titled Im Namen des Staates (In the Name of the State) on the criminal activities of various secret services.

Von Bulow told the American Free Press (AFP) that he believes that the Israeli intelligence service, MOSSAD (Israel’s version of our CIA),, was largely responsible for the September 11 terror attacks against the Twin Towers in New York. These attacks, he said, were carried out to turn public opinion against Muslims. "You don't get the higher echelons," von Bulow said, referring to the "architectural structure" which plans such terror attacks. At this level, he said, the organization doing the planning, such as MOSSAD is primarily interested in affecting public opinion.

The terrorists who actually commit the crimes are what von Bulow calls "the working level," such as the 19 Arabs who allegedly hijacked the planes on September 11. "The working level is part of the deception," he said.

"Ninety-five percent of the work of the intelligence agencies around the world is deception and disinformation," von Bulow said, which is widely propagated in the mainstream media creating an accepted version of events. "Journalists don't even raise the simplest questions," he said adding, "those who differ are labeled as crazy."

He is not the only European Intelligence expert to voice this opinion. In addition to European sources, our own F.B.I. says only two things. One, the evidence linking Israel to the 9/11 attacks “is classified”, and two, “they have insufficient evidence linking Bin Laden to the crime to put him on a wanted poster. “

There is much additional evidence that points to the following basic scenario: Israeli Intelligence either actually instigated or became aware of a plan by terrorists to hijack two planes. They then “took over” the operation, planted explosives in the Twin Towers, and planted the Koran in the white van near Logan Airport. This was an obvious and blatant political ploy to identify terrorism with the Muslim faith. It was very effective. .

Listed below is a summary of the points which support this claim:


• An Israeli surveillance team set up cameras by the Hudson River and trained them on the twin towers, just prior to 9/11. Police received several calls from angry New Jersey residents claiming “middle-eastern” men with a white van were videotaping the disaster with shouts of joy and mockery. "They were like happy, you know … They didn't look shocked to me" said a witness.

They were seen by New Jersey residents on Sept. 11 making fun of the World Trade Center. Witnesses observing their behavior in Liberty State Park after the initial impact interpreted it as being celebratory. Later on, other witnesses saw them continuing to celebrate on a roof in Weehawken, and still more witnesses later saw them celebrating with high fives in a Jersey City parking lot.

"It looked like they're hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park”


remarked another witness.

When they were finally stopped. (They were arrested and held for several months) then released) they stated:

"We are Israelis. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are your problem."

Why did he feel that Palestinians were a problem for the NYPD? No Palestinian suicide attacks have taken place in New York City, and none of the supposed 9/11 hijackers were traced to Palestine!

These men were later traced to Urban Moving System's, a New Jersey Company staffed primarily by Israelis. A few days after the attacks, Israeli owner, Dominick Suter, dropped his business and fled the country for Israel. He and his Israeli co-workers were in such a hurry to flee America that some of Urban Moving System's customers were left with their furniture stranded in storage facilities.

How did they know there would be an event to document on 9/11? Moreover, how did they know it would involve the collapse of the Twin Towers? These captured Israeli Mossad agents had training in electronic intercept, military intelligence and explosive ordinance.

• According to a 61-page report, drafted after an investigation by the DEA and the US immigration service, the Israelis were organized into cells of four to six people. The significance of what the Israelis were doing didn’t emerge until after September 11, 2001, when a report by a French intelligence agency noted "according to the FBI, Arab
terrorists and suspected terror cells lived in Phoenix, Arizona, as well as in Miami and Hollywood, Florida, from December 2000 to April 2001 in direct proximity to the Israeli spy cells".

• . The BBC published bin Laden's statement of denial in which he said:

"I was not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States nor did I have knowledge of the attacks.

• A number of intelligence officials have raised questions about Osama bin Laden's capabilities. "This guy sits in a cave in Afghanistan and he's running this operation?" one C.I.A. official asked.

• A senior military officer stated that because of the visas and other documentation needed to infiltrate team members into the United States a major foreign intelligence service might also have been involved.

• Gen. Hameed Gul, head of Inter Services Intelligence, the equivalent of a CIA-c#m-FBI combination of Pakistan, during the war against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, was interviewed shortly after the 9/11 attacks, and repeated the accusation that Israeli agents were involved in the operation.Gul said that his friend bin Laden had sworn to him on the Koran that he was not involved. “From a cave inside a mountain or a peasant's hovel," Gul asked, how could Bin Laden mount such a sophisticated operation? "Let's be serious," he said with a smile. Asked why Israel would benefit, Gul replied, "Israel knows it has a short shelf-life before it is overwhelmed by demographics (and it) has now handed the (Bush administration) the opportunity it has been waiting for to consolidate America's imperial grip on the Gulf and acquire control of the Caspian basin by extending its military presence in Central Asia."

• Horst Ehmke, who coordinated the German secret services directly under German prime minister Willi Brandt in the 70s, when he saw the televised images from September 11, he said it looked like a "Hollywood production." "Terrorists could not have carried out such an operation with 4 hijacked planes without the support of a secret service," Ehmke said.

• MOSSAD agents rented the apartment next door to the some of the hijackers in FL>


• On October 10, 2001, CNN made a briefly mentioned a foiled terrorist bomb plot on the Parliament building in Mexico. They promised to bring any further developments of this story to their viewers, but the incident was never heard of again in the mainstream U.S. media outlets. But the story appeared in bold headlines on the front page of major Mexican newspapers and was also posted on the official website of the Mexican Justice Department.

Two terror suspects were captured in the Mexican Chamber of Deputies. They had in their possession a high powered gun, nine hand grenades, and C-4 plastic explosives (great stuff for demolishing buildings!) Within days, this blockbuster story not only disappeared from the Mexican press, but the suspects were quietly released. The two terrorists were Salvador Gerson Sunke and Sar ben Zui Sunke. Gerson is a Mexican of Jewish origin, and Zui is a colonel with the Israeli Intelligence Services. (MOSSAD). The story in El Diario de Mexico went on to reveal that the terrorists possessed forged Pakistani passports. Israel worked diligently to secure the release of these two suspects, who were then quietly deported. Many Mexicans expressed outrage at their prompt release, but to no avail.

Alan Sabrosky, a former U.S. Army War College Professor also believes that the evidence points to MOSSAD as the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks.

All the silly conspiracy theories involving George Bush, Dick Cheney and CIA serve to obscure the real truth. This also is a tactic, take something close to the truth and discredit it.
Chief

climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2012 - 08:40pm PT
Wow....now that's some heavy scheisse!
Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Dec 1, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
k-man said:

Like independent tests that show traces of explosives in the Trade Towers dust.


This has been debunked:



Claim Two:

“Nano-thermite and military-grade explosives were found in dust from the towers. Tons of melted steel were found in tower debris.”

The thermite reaction is very hot, but it is also very slow compared to high explosives.Real controlled demolitions commonly use explosives to topple large buildings. However, the hallmarks of actual demolitions (the characteristic “boom-boom-boom-boom” sounds and the flashes of high explosives) were completely absent in Manhattan on the morning of September 11, 2001. Many 9/11 Truth advocates, including architect Richard Gage, insist that high explosives must have been used to bring down the Twin Towers, as they say this is the only process that can possibly explain the “ejection of debris hundreds of feet from the towers.” However, they simultaneously insist that thermite or a derivative (thermate, nanothermite, etc.) was used instead, so as to topple the towers quietly. (This is but one of many instances in which 9/11 Truth claims flatly contradict each other.) Thermite itself fails as an explanation for the destruction of the Towers on many levels:

The thermite reaction, which takes place between iron oxide (rust) and powdered aluminum, is practical for welding train tracks in the field and for destroying engines of vehicles that must be left behind during combat operations. The self-sustaining reaction, once initiated with heat, produces significant volumes of molten iron, which can melt and cut iron structures beneath it. For thermite to melt through a normally vertical steel beam, however, special high-temperature containment must be added to prevent the molten iron from simply dropping straight down uselessly. The thermite reaction is very hot, but it is also very slow compared to high explosives. Thermite is simply not practical for carrying out a controlled demolition, and there is no documentation of it ever having been used for that purpose.

Jesse Ventura hired New Mexico Tech to show how nanothermite can slice through a large steel beam. The experiment was a total failure—even in the optimum (horizontal) configuration, the layer of nanothermite produced lots of flame and smoke but no actual damage to the massive I-beam tested. However, Ventura’s TruTV Conspiracy Theory show slyly passed it off as a rousing success (Thomas 2010a).

Niels Harrit and Steven Jones, along with several coauthors, published the “peer-reviewed” paper “Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe” in the Bentham Open Chemical Physics Journal (Harrit 2009). This article does not make the case for thermite use on 9/11. The paper examined “distinctive red/gray chips” found in WTC dust (unfortunately, with no chain of custody for the dust), and these were claimed to be thermitic because of their composition (iron oxides and pure aluminum) and other chemical properties. However, the presence of rust and aluminum does not prove the use of thermite, because iron oxide and aluminum are found in many common items that existed in the towers. Furthermore, the authors admit that their “differential scanning calorimeter” measurements of the supposed thermitic material showed results at about 450 degrees C below the temperature at which normal thermite reacts (Fana 2006). Finally, the scan of the red side of the “thermitic material” of Harrit/Jones is a dead-on match to material Jones himself identified as “WTC Steel Primer Paint” in his Hard Evidence Down Under Tour in November of 2009 (“Sunstealer” 2011).

Harrit’s article describes the red portion of the chips as “unreacted thermitic material.” But while thermite may be slow, it does not stop its reaction once it has begun. Because thermite supplies its own oxygen (via iron oxides), it can even burn underwater. Suggesting that the samples show partially reacted thermite is preposterous. Claiming that thermite would explain molten pools of steel weeks and months after the attack is equally preposterous.

The article’s publication process was so politicized and bizarre that the editor-in-chief of the Bentham journal that featured Jones’s article, Marie-Paule Pileni, resigned in protest (Hoffman 2009).

Thermitic demolition should have created copious pools of melted steel at Ground Zero, but nothing remotely like this was ever found. Truthers say iron microspheres found in the rubble indicate thermite; since hot fires and spot-welding do produce very tiny spheres of iron, though, these “microspheres” are not unexpected. Pictures of cranes holding red-hot materials in the rubble are said to show molten steel. Had this been the case, however, the crane rigs would have immediately seized up (Blanchard 2006). No reports of “molten steel” in the tower basements have ever been credibly verified (Roberts 2008). Some Truthers claim that a few pieces of sulfidized “eutectic” steel found in the towers proves thermate (thermite with sulfur) usage, but this occurred because sulfur, released from burned drywall, corroded the steel as it stewed in the pile for weeks (Roberts 2008).

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/the_9_11_truth_movement_the_top_conspiracy_theory_a_decade_later/

Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Dec 1, 2012 - 10:26pm PT
Bldgs like #7 don't go down like like it did into such a neat package - the way it went down does not even require thermite evidence to show it was demolished. It's absurd to think otherwise.



I guess I have to post this one more time.



Claim Three:

“Tower 7, which wasn’t hit by a plane, collapsed neatly into its own footprint.”

The enigma of WTC 7 is becoming increasingly popular in Truther circles. We’re told that it wasn’t hit by a plane and was subjected to just a few “small office fires.” Yet it collapsed anyway, late in the afternoon of September 11, “falling neatly into its own footprint at freefall acceleration, just like a normal controlled demolition.” In particular, Truthers point to a brief period of freefall (2.25 seconds) that was confirmed by NIST in its WTC 7 final report (Sunder 2008; NIST 2010) as proving that the building was purposely imploded. However, WTC 7, too, fails to prove 9/11 was an “inside job”:

What is often conveniently left out of the story are actual reports from NYFD firefighters at the scene, which describe huge, raging, unfought fires on many floors at once and visible deformations and creaking of the building prior to its collapse (Roberts 2008). Tower 7 was not hit by an airplane; however, it was struck by a 110-story flaming skyscraper, the North Tower. The fires raged for hours, and they eventually caused a critical column (#79) to fail because of thermal expansion; NIST determined that this column was crucial to the building and could even be considered a design flaw. Its failure would have collapsed the building even without the other structural damage from WTC 1’s collapse and the fires.

WTC 7’s brief 2.25 seconds of free fall is now the Truthers’ best “smoking gun.” The claim usually goes like this: “The fifty-eight perimeter columns would have resisted and slowed the collapse to much less than freefall. The ‘freefall’ of WTC 7, admitted to by NIST, proves it was controlled demolition.” The problem is that this is a straw man argument. NIST found the collapse occurred in three stages. The first stage, which lasted 1.75 seconds, is when the fifty-eight perimeter columns were buckled; during this interval, the rooftop actually fell only about seven feet. This is because the breaking of columns saps speed, indeed making the collapse slower than free fall. In the second stage, which lasted 2.25 seconds, the already-buckled columns provided negligible support, and the north face of the structure free-fell about eight stories. (Try taking a plastic drinking straw and buckling it by folding it over and then pushing down on the bent straw with your hand. The crimped straw provides almost no resistance to vertical forces, and neither did the buckled columns of WTC 7.) The third stage described by NIST, which lasted 1.4 seconds, was again less-than-free fall, as the structure fell another 130 feet as it impacted more non-buckled structures toward the bottom of the building (NIST 2010).

The other half of the equation is that WTC 7 resembles a “classic controlled demolition” because it supposedly “imploded, collapsing completely, and landed in its own footprint” (Gage 2011). In actuality, it twisted and tilted over to one side as it fell, and parts of the building severely damaged two neighboring buildings (the Verizon and Fiterman Hall structures). When challenged with the obvious fact that Tower 7 spilled far outside its footprint, however, Truthers will often change their tune and start saying that any resemblance to a natural collapse is part of the cover-up.

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/the_9_11_truth_movement_the_top_conspiracy_theory_a_decade_later/



Bazant is one of the sources mentioned for part of the article linked. But he's in on it right? So everything is part of the conspiracy.



You can't argue with delusions, I spend much of my nights working in the ER dealing with such, and I get paid for it--I'm out
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 1, 2012 - 10:39pm PT
LOL, the Grabbe paper. This is the paper that claims the top portion of the South Tower fell at >3g for about the first 100 feet. He's claiming the explosives some how sucked the top portion down. Wow!

Here he talks about his paper: http://www.sealane.org/blog/Bazantegg.shtml

The top segment is being pulled down much faster apparently by the force of a gradient in the pressure of an internal explosion.

Don't ya just love truther physics.


MN, your own pic above shows wtc7 debris piled 8 stories high against the Verizon Building.


What part of footprint don't you understand MN. Look for pictures of Fiterman hall and tell me that's a part of WTC 7's footprint.






Fiterman hall had to be deconstructed because it was so badly damaged by the collapse of WTC 7.
OR

Trad climber
Dec 1, 2012 - 10:59pm PT
Does anybody actually know anyone (personally) that actually witnessed the planes crash into the buildings???

Let me think....oh, My best friend saw them both hit. My ex GF saw the second one hit. My ex employee was almost killed himself by a man who jumped from from the towers rather than burn to death and I'm fairly sure at least one of my three friends who were working at Cantor Fitzgerald on the 105th floor of tower one may have witnessed a plane coming at them......... but I can't ask them because they are dead.
Byran

climber
Yosemite Valley, CA
Dec 1, 2012 - 11:14pm PT
Hamster video was worth the click. Anyways here's a quote I like from http://www.debunking911.com/index.html

----


WHY would the government do it? I don’t mean Iraq , oil etc I mean why would they do it in this way ? just to help a pal with his insurance?

Why use a plane at all . Why crash your own airline industry and every other countries { Swissair etc}, damage your financial markets { just when you are going to need some war funds} destroy very very
valuable property, panic the WORLD, kill your own citizens etc. Could all this not be achieved by a ‘foiled’ plot. Terrorists were 15 minutes from the murder of thousands... a president would certainly come out better
having stopped an attack than permitted one. Or if you needed a big attack why not just the anthrax that came after. Everyone panicking over any white powder. Far far easier to plant Anthrax or similar in the towers or Disneyland, have a panic, then capture your suspects who blow themselves up or whatever you want.

If you were going to do this, would you do it this way?’ There are cheaper, better, easier and safer ways to get into a war.. Also why pick Osama as the fall guy if the target is Hussein. Why not just pick Saddam and ‘plant’ evidence to show it was him all along, thereby never needing to go to Afghanistan at all .After all if you can plan the attack why not the culprit.. no need to go scratching for evidence of a link to Iraq AFTER the attack , set it up before.

Funny how the authorities are both all powerful, all seeing, all knowing, and completely incompetent at the same time...

The good old Pearl Harbor theory always struck me the same way . Why destroy your fleet just as you are planning war. Discover the jap carriers 500 miles out while on manouevers’ and the impact on public opinion would be similar to a attack.

Why sink your whole fleet ? Especially if you could sink theirs .. take a few years off the war if they lost 6 carriers day 1 !!

Credit: Byran
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 1, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
Hamster on the way to Stage 14 (Fake Mercury)






Hamster on Stage 69 (Werner's Fake Moon)

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 1, 2012 - 11:18pm PT
The city is a hologram.
The hamster is real.
The WTC building holograms have been turned off, following the screening of the aircraft attack hologram.






































Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Dec 1, 2012 - 11:20pm PT
And don't forget this one Byran:

All this planning and execution from a govt that is allegedly totally incompetent. :/ They just try to look incompetent as part of the cover. :/
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Dec 1, 2012 - 11:21pm PT










Oh WAIT, did I post this on the WRONG thread???
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 1, 2012 - 11:27pm PT
may have witnessed a plane coming at them......... but I can't ask them because they are dead.


...... or are they??? ....

Maybe they got the call on the super-secret Jew phone just in time!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 1, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
If you really want your head to explode and splatter on the wall, go here;

http://www.septemberclues.info/

From what I've learned from SeptemberClues, I can tell your hamster video is fake.

What September Clues says, and I hope I have this correct, is that All and ANY footage you have ever seen of the 911 event was created in a studio. They believe the buildings WERE demolished but that there were no people in them and that the area was evacuated. No planes ever hit the bldgs. All home video cameras were disabled with EMT. So that nobody could see the ACTUALL event a fog was created over the city. Even the 911 Memorial and victims are fake.

I would encourage people to check it out but it could cause brain damage or worse.

How do you know that something is real or now?

How do you know that you are real?

How do you know "you" are not just part of a sleeping hamster's dream?












































graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 1, 2012 - 11:33pm PT
Cosmic found a great image!


Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Dec 1, 2012 - 11:42pm PT
What I hate more than anything...

Is that THEY went back and scrubbed out the Twin Towers from all the movies, cartoons, photos and post cards from New York.
They even changed a scene in the Simpson's....and deleted the TT from it.

Why the hell did they do that, it's like adding Stalin to some picture to make him look like he was there when he wasn't even born yet.

Do they think we can't handle ever seeing the TT again, it will bring up too many bad memories?
Who do they think we are, Children?

You should never try to rewrite history, that is pure evil.

I say they should put the TTs back in
I'm going to start a petition.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 1, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
http://wtcinmovies.tripod.com/edits.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_entertainment_affected_by_the_September_11_attacks

Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Dec 2, 2012 - 12:01am PT
They're trying to make it fade to black dr f.

Who said the government did it? Certainly not me, i don't recall anyone else asserting that either.

OR I meant no disrespect, in fact I was hoping that someone like you would come along. Did your ex-girlfriend actually describe a plane flying into the building or just an explosion? I am simply curious, and trying to wade through all the muck out there.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Dec 2, 2012 - 12:04am PT
Thanks for the Info Granite

Hey weren't you the guy trying to get me banned??
See, we can be friends :)
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 2, 2012 - 07:51am PT
Could all this not be achieved by a ‘foiled’ plot. Terrorists were 15 minutes from the murder of thousands... a president would certainly come out better
having stopped an attack than permitted one.


Well let's not forget that on Sept 10th Donald Rumsfeld announced that the department of Defense had 2.3 trillion!!! unaccounted for!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU4GdHLUHwU

That's big shit! and guess what, people forgot all about that after 9-11. Not to mention that

Let's not forget that there were 10s of millions of dollars in Gold and Silver from the Bank of Nova Scotia that disappeared when the buildings went down. And Silverstein got something like 7 billion in an insurance settlement on the building that he only had 15 million invested it and which was going to require a 1 billion in Asbestos remediation.

Not to mention the extraordinary put options (bets the stock would go down) placed on the airlines and wall street firms that were housed in the towers.

besides that, the evidence for a number of serious wall street investigations were destroyed when the buildings fell. very convenient.

Here's a 37 minute video (part 1) on following the September 11 money

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1t5anm6Uyo

There's a lot more. The 9-11 commission specifically stated they didn't think where the financing for the 9-11 attacks came from was important. Total BS right? Particularly when a major Indian newspaper wrote that the head of the Pakistani ISI secret service had wired 100,000 dollars to Mohammed Atta and that same guy was meeting with George Tenet, on the day of 9-11

Peace

Karl
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 2, 2012 - 09:35am PT
Good plan Karl. Announce who the conspirators are and the motivation for the attack the day before the attack. Hahahaha.

And no Karl, he didn't just announce it. This was well known for a couple years.

See http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Missing_Trillions.

His speech says the Pentagon should be technologically improved for more efficiency. Hardly seems motivation to slam planes into towers and kill thousands of Americans and

risk getting caught
risk getting caught
risk getting caught.


Here's a few paragraphs:

The technology revolution has transformed organizations across the private sector, but not ours, not fully, not yet. We are, as they say, tangled in our anchor chain. Our financial systems are decades old. According to some estimates, we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions. We cannot share information from floor to floor in this building because it's stored on dozens of technological systems that are inaccessible or incompatible.

We maintain 20 to 25 percent more base infrastructure than we need to support our forces, at an annual waste to taxpayers of some $3 billion to $4 billion. Fully half of our resources go to infrastructure and overhead, and in addition to draining resources from warfighting, these costly and outdated systems, procedures and programs stifle innovation as well. A new idea must often survive the gauntlet of some 17 levels of bureaucracy to make it from a line officer's to my desk. I have too much respect for a line officer to believe that we need 17 layers between us.

Our business processes and regulations seems to be engineered to prevent any mistake, and by so doing, they discourage any risk. But ours is a nation born of ideas and raised on improbability, and risk aversion is not America's ethic, and more important, it must not be ours.

Those who fear danger do not volunteer to storm beaches and take hills, sail the seas, and conquer the skies. Now we must free you to take some of the same thoughtful, reasoned risks in the bureaucracy that the men and women in uniform do in battle.

To that end, we're announcing today a series of steps the Department of Defense will take to shift our focus and our resources from bureaucracy to battlefield, from tail to tooth.

Today's announcements are only the first of many. We will launch others ourselves, and we will ask Congress for legislative help as well. We have, for example, asked Congress for permission to begin the process of closing excess bases and consolidating the B-1 bomber force.

http://www.defense.gov/speeches/speech.aspx?speechid=430
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Dec 2, 2012 - 11:41am PT
How hard, and how much money would it cost to get 19 Jihadists to conduct the 911 attacks??

What I can see, it would only take a couple $100,000, and some fast talking leader to make it happen.
There really wasn't thst much to it

As an example, one person alone could still do it with one plane. and it only cost me the price of the plane Ticket.

Occam's Razor
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 2, 2012 - 11:44am PT
I have to come clean.

I am not an agent provocateur, nor collaborator, nor an operative, nor a ringleader.

I am out for myself. I am a mastermind. At the tender of age of 13 I (a genius) was hired by NASA to coordinate the fake moon landings. Why me? Because I am a genius, it’s that simple.

So who comes knocking on my door (not for the first time) in early 2001?

My old contacts. They come up with this idiotic scheme to help Bush’s popularity, the CIA’s goals and hegemony, not to mention the anti-Islam element.

I don’t know, I had retired to the Emerald Isle (I was paid well for the moon landing scenario and several other gigs as well).

But when they said I could help strike a blow for their agenda, which I really didn’t care about, my ears perked up. Actually they perked up when the sum €200m in pay (but no benefits) was mentioned, of course with all the hardware thrown in.

Mmm, I told them €300m. I hardballed them. They hemmed and they hawed.

Deal.

Being a climber as a one-man team, it was not that difficult to stash explosives on the buildings at strategic points. I disguised myself as window cleaner.

What pisses me off is that it took longer than I thought it would, yet I couldn’t charge overtime. Bummer.

I gave the operatives the remote control that would detonate the whole lot.

And I also felt betrayed, in the sense that it was suppose to be only ONE airplane, and nobody mentioned anything about the Pentagon and Pennsylvania.

You think they would have kept me in the loop.




NB I don’t know, it wouldn’t surprise me if there was some sort of shenanigans going on, I don’t trust politicians/governments, not that I am a libertarian or tea-partier or anarchist.

I often wonder if the Brits, and perhaps even some US officials, knew in advance of Pearl Harbor. And there are a couple of other questions that play on my mind regarding things past. However, by nature I am not a conspiratorist, at all.

When told about the atrocity, the look on Bush’s face (wasn’t he reading the book upside down to the students?), his look was one of being incredulous and truly shocked… either that or he is a better actor than I give him credit for.


RIP the 911 victims and condolences to their loved ones.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 2, 2012 - 12:02pm PT
When told about the atrocity, the look on Bush’s face (wasn’t he reading the book upside down to the students?), his look was one of being incredulous and truly shocked… either that or he is a better actor than I give him credit for.

Yeah, Bush just sat their and read that book to the kids cause he said he didn't want to scare a few dozen kids by leaving the room suddenly when the nation was attacked.

Then He lied when he said that he had seen the first plane hit the tower when, in fact, no such video had be broadcast by the time he claimed to have seen it

and yet few question why he would have said something impossible

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/bushlie.html

President Bush has stated on two occasions that he saw a plane hit World Trade Center 1:

Occasion 1:
President Bush Holds Town Hall Meeting
[CNN, Aired December 4, 2001]
QUESTION: One thing, Mr. President, is that you have no idea how much you've done for this country, and another thing is that how did you feel when you heard about the terrorist attack?

BUSH: Well... (APPLAUSE)

Thank you, Jordan (ph).

Well, Jordan (ph), you're not going to believe what state I was in when I heard about the terrorist attack. I was in Florida. And my chief of staff, Andy Card -- actually I was in a classroom talking about a reading program that works. And I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower -- the TV was obviously on, and I use to fly myself, and I said, "There's one terrible pilot." And I said, "It must have been a horrible accident."

But I was whisked off there -- I didn't have much time to think about it, and I was sitting in the classroom, and Andy Card, my chief who was sitting over here walked in and said, "A second plane has hit the tower. America's under attack."

RealMedia video download of comment

Occasion 2:
President Holds Town Hall Forum on Economy in California
[whitehouse.gov, January 5, 2002]

"I was sitting there, and my Chief of Staff -- well, first of all, when we walked into the classroom, I had seen this plane fly into the first building. There was a TV set on..." [whitehouse.gov]

WMA download of comment

There is a problem with the above statements. There was no live video coverage of the first plane hitting the tower. There couldn't be. Video of the first plane hitting the tower did not surface until AFTER the second plane had hit World Trade Center 2.

11 a.m. on 9/11. One of the first broadcasts of Flight 11's impact into WTC 1.
WMV video download (831kB)

This Washington Times article states he didn't see the impact at the school...

The president entered a holding room at the school and picked up a secure telephone to speak with National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice at the White House. She was sitting in her office, watching live coverage of the stricken north tower as it belched black smoke into a cloudless sky. "There's one terrible pilot," Mr. Bush muttered. Turning to Mr. Card, he speculated that the pilot must have suffered a heart attack. Mr. Bush, who had yet to see the TV images, drafted a statement pledging federal assistance.
...and this is confirmed by Booker Elementary School Principal Gwen Rigell in this Propaganda Matrix posting:

I had the opportunity to talk with Principal Gwen Rigell of Booker Elementary school for about twenty minutes. ... I asked her if in fact the President had been watching the events of 9-11 unfold on TV before he went into that classroom and she told me "Absolutely not". There was no TV in the corridor or anywhere near that classroom.
Even though Bush is not a very good pilot (he was taken off of flight status for failure to take a medical exam which included a drug test), it would be silly to assume that a passenger jet hitting the WTC in clear weather was pilot error, especially since warnings had surfaced of hijacked commercial aircraft attacking symbols of American culture:

U.S. and Israeli intelligence agencies received warning signals [in July 2001] that Middle Eastern terrorists were planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture. [FromTheWilderness]
FBI information [...] indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York. [President Bush Intelligence Briefing 8/6/2001]

If Bush really did see an airplane on TV hitting the World Trade Center then he saw that the aircraft was under control at the time, and he saw it before arriving at Booker Elementary because he was en route to the school when the first plane struck WTC 1 - a closed-circuit live feed to his limo is the only way he could have seen this impact on TV.

Each of us will ... remember the moment the news came -- where we were and what we were doing. [G.W. Bush, September 20, 2001]
It must also be remembered that even after Andrew Card informed Bush of the second impact, by his own admission Bush knew America was being attacked, but he continued listening to the reading skills of a classroom full of children.

Just think about that for a while.
locker

Social climber
Douchebag Central
Dec 2, 2012 - 12:06pm PT


photo not found
Missing photo ID#276532
...





















































...


monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 2, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
So you agree, the 'footprint' claim is bullsh#t. It flopped into the Verizon building and Fiterman hall, two different directions. Your demolition company would be sued out of business if that happened.

Why would the conspirators care to make WTC 7 fall only into it's footprint, when the towers obviously did not?

Why would they want to take the risk of getting caught making the extensive preparations to make a building fall safely with no collateral damage?

Let's face it, given the damage to WTC 7 (missing a corner) the building would have collapsed from a well placed explosive at the vulnerable spot (column 78) or fire. Given there was no sign of an explosion (windows would have blown out and the boom would be heard everywhere), fire is by far most likely to blame.

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 2, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
LOL, I'm sure glad truther's don't design highrises.

You show stunning ignorance.

Here's Gage demonstrating your inertia argument:



I would love a new investigation, just so the experts could laugh at your arguments. Everyone needs more comedy.

Here are some clues to help you understand. Do some searches for WTC 7, north side cantilevered transfer girders, east penthouse, column 78.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Dec 2, 2012 - 07:43pm PT
There are technical journals from engineering firms in every country in the world on how this occurred - not one reputable firm in the world has an issue with any of the science or explanation of how this occurred....simple as that..it's science!!

As far as the rest - you guys are delving into peculiarities of GWB and trying to hindsight some convoluted meaning??
BUSH IS AND WAS AN IDIOT!!!!
DON'T try to apply logic or understanding to the actions, words or thoughts of an idiot.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Dec 2, 2012 - 10:12pm PT
DON'T try to apply logic or understanding to the actions, words or thoughts of an idiot.
Truer words were never spoken.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 2, 2012 - 11:41pm PT



































Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Dec 3, 2012 - 01:31am PT
Thanks for proving the OP Dingus...
locker

Social climber
Douchebag Central
Dec 3, 2012 - 01:36am PT

There is only one truth...



















































...


k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 3, 2012 - 12:25pm PT
WHY would the government do it?
    Bryan

Why would anybody do it??

Money and power, of course.

Unless you think it was some sort of revenge thing.


Money and power, so follow the money, right? Well, wrong. No need for that--according to the 9/11 Commission.

And anybody who thinks W organized this mess is a bloody fool.
Headmaster

Trad climber
Carthage
Dec 3, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1199984&msg=1203720#msg1203720






What 757? a little teeny one? No 757 went through that hole at full throttle a foot off the ground, the engines would have left furrows, period. just their exhaust thrust would have left furrows as they fired along the lawn for hundreds of feet, exactly at ground level; the engines hung low. 500 miles an hour horizontally and at what vetical speed as they come in to the final second? Appearently zero vertical or near enough, they hit lamp posts hundreds of feet away, a perfect intersection with the ground and the wall from a spiral diving turn began ten miles away while flying in a different direction. Amazing to the point of stupid impossible. What amazing flying that day from a bunch of bimbos.

And how did the hamster git in the hole wid the airplane, anyway??

and then htere was the woman who walked out the cool hole carrying a baby a few minutes later... and carl rove being there evacuating people... and all that money, and the new reinforced building segment that was not yet open to use, the one that was hit by the perfect pilot guided by allah, but why didnt Allah let him hit a wall that was not reinforced and was occupied ?? He had 4 out of five to chose from and he hits the newly rebuilt rockhard one by chance... what side is Allah on?

And why havn't they reinforced any other of the walls of the pentagon now? Looked like that one wall was a good idea. Couldn't have timed it butter, either. The re-construction had just ended a few days before.


How much picture do you need?

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=957273&msg=961635#msg961635

very much better photos exist in the ST previous threads than what has been posted in this one. check them out using the show all option then slide through them with your cursor only pulling out the real good parts.

Amazingly, the head of one of the groups showed up here, but was run off by these same yahoos, not being allowed to make his arguments here.

This place is so often not ready for prime time... ((FAIL.))
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 3, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
Head, it is clear you know nothing about flying airplanes. Not that it matters.

At least Ron Anderson's 'Ghost' thread has a semblance of reality to it.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 3, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
Good one Headmaster(RokJox). Nice classic Truther lie. That's the second floor. Only Truthers claim that's the 'official' story.

The plane struck the first floor. You can see your 'hole' marked by the '18 feet' below. Notice the wide missing section below it?

OR

Trad climber
Dec 3, 2012 - 03:21pm PT
They're trying to make it fade to black dr f.

Who said the government did it? Certainly not me, i don't recall anyone else asserting that either.

OR I meant no disrespect, in fact I was hoping that someone like you would come along. Did your ex-girlfriend actually describe a plane flying into the building or just an explosion? I am simply curious, and trying to wade through all the muck out there.

She did, from the waterfront in Hoboken walking to the ferry terminal. She worked at the World Financial center across the street from WTC. It was my best friend who was closer. He was in his office in Soho/Tribeca and saw a very low flying jet zoom by. He looked out his SW facing corner window watching the jet thinking it was some sort of " promotional thing for an airline" He watched it fly right into the North Tower. Within seconds he was on the phone with my brother describing what he saw. Unreal. The second plane had thousands of eyewhitnesses. People were mezmorized and horrofied watching the NT burn and people jump as plane #2 hit. I was actually on vacation with a buddy in Jackson Hole. His wife worked in WTC one but was late for work that morning after taking their dog to the vet. Unfortunately we did not know about the vet appointment and sat for 5 hours in a condo in Jackson watching the news while my friend openly cried not knowing the fate of his wife. We finally recieved a phone call from friends saying the wife was not yet in the building and was ok. It sucked.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 3, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
Locker found the "missing link."
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 3, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
Pull it!
































































philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 3, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
http://physics911.net/missingwings/

photo not found
Missing photo ID#276698


In the image above, taken before a section of the Pentagon above the primary entrance hole collapsed, one can see the left side of the hole, partially obscured by drifting smoke. One can also see unbroken widows on both floors.


That sure looks like the first floor to me.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 3, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
That's way to the left. You can match up the cars in both pics. See car left of firetruck in my pic.

Also looks like aircraft aluminum panels present. Thanks.

If you are unable to match up the windows in Headmaster's pic and my pic, then you show no photo skills whatsoever. They show many identical characteristics.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 3, 2012 - 03:57pm PT
It was a guided missile.




















































monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 3, 2012 - 03:59pm PT
Good one! LMAO!
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:06pm PT
Ok ok ok, I admit it.
I AM the one who did all the photo and video manipulations
for the Government to make it look like TERRORISTS did it.

Now I've been contracted by the Government for my manips, to get the Muslims all riled up!
photo not found
Missing photo ID#166777
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:11pm PT
Mono, you pic shows spools, still intact, where the wings of a jetliner supposedly crossed.


Where is the plane debris in your pic?? The columns left standing where the wings dissolved.

You only believe that's a plane crash site because that's what they said on the news. If somebody showed you this photo without anything connecting to any events, you would never believe a 575 crashed there. Simply not possible.

No debris, no marks on the lawn, no raging fire, on and on.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:16pm PT
Sorry K-Man. I can't satisfy your cartoon image of what a crash scene looks like.

Did ya see the aluminum panels in Philo's pic?

I see you don't want to defend the tiny hole lie.



Sure K-Man, no plane parts on the lawn.

Don't you mean, the plane parts on the lawn were planted?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
Cosmic that would not work very well

All good conspiracy theorists know that an airliner does not cause much damage to buildings...

you need my team of expert demolistionists...

We have experience wiring buildings to implode effectively AFTER airliners knock holes in the wiring.

been out of work since Cheney retired

please call.
locker

Social climber
Douchebag Central
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:21pm PT


Granite NAILS another!!!...

LOL!!!...

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:22pm PT
No debris, no marks on the lawn, no raging fire, on and on.

"No debris" - you need to read up on inertia.

"No marks on the lawn" - what makes you think there should be?

"No raging fire" - HUH?

"on and on." - you got that part right.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:24pm PT


The impact zone.
"When you look at the whole thing, especially the crash site void of airplane parts, the size of the hole left in the building and the fact the projectile's impact penetrated numerous concrete walls, it looks like the work of a missile. And when you look at the damage, it was obviously a missile."

Quote from Major Douglas Rokke, PhD, U.S. Army (ret) – Former Director U.S. Army Depleted Uranium Project. 30-year Army career. Instructor, undergraduate and graduate courses in environmental science, environmental engineering, nuclear physics, emergency management. Staff physicist at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign for 19 years.



Only a fool believes a 757 caused this damage.

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:26pm PT
Nice pic of the right side.

You can see the collapse angle on the left margin. Thanks K-Man.

What's yer point?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
Only a fool believes a 757 caused this damage.

You think there should be more or less?
I guess you think the wings should have hit those wire spools?
Guess again.

ps
read up on inertia yet?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:30pm PT
OK, where did the wings hit if they didn't hit the building or the ground?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:33pm PT
You are showing the right wing tip hit in your photo.

Did you think the tips should have demolished the reinforced concrete?

You can match up your pic with this composite.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:36pm PT


some of my early work
locker

Social climber
Douchebag Central
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:40pm PT




"I guess you think the wings should have hit those wire spools?"...

For whatever reason...

that line got me laughing...

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:40pm PT
OK, if you're gonna be reasonable here goes. The parking lot vid clearly
shows the plane hitting the building with at least 3' of ground clearance
so there wouldn't be any marks on the grass, especially from "engine thrust".
The outer 1/3 of a plane's wings are basically some sheets of very thin
aluminum over a few bits of structural steel and those bits aren't going to
have much effect on a massive masonry building like the Pentagon. As they
get sheared off they are going to be dragged into the main entry hole because
that's the way it works. There have been lots of studies on this and that
is just the way it is, mkay? The wings fold back easily enough but they're
still stuck on pretty well so they just go along for the rest of the ride.
It ain't rocket science.

ps
And for what it's worth the sicko who flew into the Pentagon was the best
of a bad bunch. I thank God that the other idiots didn't have a brain
between them or they would have slowed down and crashed into the lower parts
of the WTC and prevented anybody from escaping.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:44pm PT
the size of the hole left in the building and the fact the projectile's impact penetrated numerous concrete walls, it looks like the work of a missile

He's referring to the exit hole left by an engine or landing gear, not the entrance hole.

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
If the wings got dragged into the hole, then where are they?

First I hear that they vaporized, then I hear that they got dragged into the hole. The plane simultaneously cannot vaporize and punch through 32' of reinforced concrete.

Stir up that KoolAide, your mouth is getting dry.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
He's referring to the exit hole left by the engine or landing gear, not the entrance hole.

And you know what he's referring to how? Honestly, this makes you look a fool.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:49pm PT
What happens to aluminum in a fire?

And yep, how could he be referring to the hole in the front of the pentagon. There are hundreds of photos of this hole. Does not look at all like a possible missile circular hole above.

How could a 140 foot narrow rectangular hole with bent in columns in the front look like a missile strike?

And how could a missile explode creating the 140 foot hole, then proceed and create the exit hole deep inside the pentagon?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
Dood, aluminum burns very nicely and completely. Put a half cup of gas in
an empty soda can and light it. And don't forget to toss it in yer
neighbor's yard.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:55pm PT
cool. It vaporized.

Then explain the holes through 32' of reinforced concrete.

You cannot have it both ways.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:55pm PT
Dood, aluminum burns very nicely and completely.

Back in the dark ages I worked on a fire crew up in central BC. We got called to a smoke one day that turned out to be a logging truck. The driver hadn't bothered to check his brakes at the top of a long hill. Fortunately for him, he saw some sign of what was going on, got the thing stopped and ran for it before the tanks went up.

We got there in time to see... Not a whole lot of anything. Surprised the hell out of me to discover that metal can be consumed pretty much totally if the fire is hot enough.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 3, 2012 - 04:57pm PT
Engines, landing gear, plus the mass behind the nose to tail. Massive objects moving at 500 mph, K-Man.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 3, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
K-man, my last effort at being polite: the inner 2/3 of a wing has more
than a few bits of structural steel and the fuselage has quite a few. Add
'em up and you've got 120 TONS moving at a high rate of speed.
That's a damn big bullet that's gonna go through a whole lot of anything.
Don't forget the 8-10,000 gallons of fuel although that is included in MTOW (Max Takeoff Weight).

I told you on the last page to read up on inertia.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 3, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
Do you want to see what a crashed passenger jet and 110 dead mangled bodies look like? Well, do you?












































This is real. Not hamsters involved this one. Valujet crash. You are looking at a wrecked plane and 110 bodies.












If you can't handle the truth, don't click on the link.
http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/analysis/compare/jetcrashdebris.html
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 3, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
The pentagon is under attack.














































k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 3, 2012 - 05:35pm PT
Inertia: the resistance an object has to a change its state of motion.

Get it, inertia says that things have a tendency to stay in motion, or stay still. It doesn't have squat to do with why wings going 500+MPH don't leave marks on buildings, m'kay?


Reilly, first you say the wings have no mass, they're just sheets of aluminum. Now you're saying they do have some structure, and hence mass.

Pick a story and stick with it, OK?


So, did the plane vaporize or not? If not, then where is it? If so, then how did it punch through all that concrete, and then disappear?


But honestly, don't bother answering. I don't believe everything people tell me. Especially someone who thinks that inertial explains why a building wouldn't show signs where the wings on a jetliner hit it.


I also don't believe the 9/11 Commission, considering they themselves tell us not to believe them. But you can go ahead and believe them, that is, of course, your choice.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Dec 3, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
"I guess you think the wings should have hit those wire spools?
Guess again."








Missed them by that much!







k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 3, 2012 - 09:17pm PT
Actually, it's my belief that if a plane hit the Pentagon, those spools would show some sign of the wreckage. Look, you don't see any plane remains in the photo. I guess the wings just got sucked into the hole where they later vaporized!

Stranger than fiction!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 3, 2012 - 09:18pm PT
It's hard for me to believe that whatever 9-11 schemers there were, would need to use something other than an airplane to attack the pentagon, but I really don't know what happened, just that things do not add up.

But to contribute to this discussion on melting stuff, the Jet Fans in those planes are made of Titanium and designed to resist the hottest of fires, cause they are in the fire all the time. They are big parts in those engines

Peace

Karl
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Dec 3, 2012 - 09:20pm PT
Stranger than fiction! !!!!11111116666666666

Stranger than fiction would be that it was missile

and that it was staged

that would be Stranger than fiction!

If a 757 crashed into that hole, then that's what a 757 looks like when it hits the side of the fortified Pentagon

It doesn't matter what the photos look like, a 757 hit the Pentagon, case closed
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 3, 2012 - 09:37pm PT
Stranger than fiction! !!!!11111116666666666

Stranger than fiction would be that it was missile

and that it was staged

that would be Stranger than fiction!


Stranger then fiction would be an airplane flying in though one of k-man's ears and out the other and encountered even a single working neuron.

A good way to test k-man's hypothesis is to a fly an airliner horizontally into his house, with him in it, at 500 miles an hour.

We can then see how much wreckage is in his front lawn in front of his house instead of hundreds of feet down field.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 3, 2012 - 09:43pm PT


Interesting K-Man, so no plane debris on the lawn. Do tell us all about it.

As for the spools, they need not be directly hit to be moved. The plane struck the fence, which could in turn moved the spools. Or a number of other combinations.

It wouldn't take much to get spools rolling, after all, spools are round and roll easily.

Truther's spotting anomalies in a chaotic incident (look that blast resistant window didn't break) is funny.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 3, 2012 - 09:47pm PT
"just disappeared into dust."













































k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 3, 2012 - 09:56pm PT
Wow graniteclimber, I don't believe the 9/11 Commission, even when they themselves admit they were lied to and their report is a sham. Thousands of people don't believe the lies that we've been told, and and we're told to shut up when we admit we don't swallow them.

And now you. You want to fly airplanes into my house and kill me because I question the official story of 9/11.


I think you should be banned for those words, suggesting bodily harm to me and ruination of my home.
You are a sad excuse for a person.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 3, 2012 - 09:58pm PT
GC, that demo doesn't apply to the pentagon cuz it's not exactly the same.

K-Man you sound just like Klimmer. He complained he was being threatened because he was exposing the truth. Better whine to CMac.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 3, 2012 - 10:09pm PT
And by the way you sad sack.

That video of the plane--it's a great demonstration that planes that hit concrete walls and disintgrate--they don't punch through the wall, they vaporize instead.

Thanks for helping to prove my point.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 3, 2012 - 10:38pm PT
And a fighter is many times less massive than a 757.

K-Man is still having issues with inertia.

BTW, that wall was designed to move to help absorb the impact, not like the pentagon.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 3, 2012 - 11:50pm PT
GC, that demo doesn't apply to the pentagon cuz it's not exactly the same.

Yes, it shows what happens when an airplane hits a heavily reinforced solid concrete block. It shows that aircraft can be shattered into unrecognizable pieces. The Pentagon is a honeycomb of walls that are strong reinforced concrete, but not nearly as strong a the concrete block in the video.
That video of the plane--it's a great demonstration that planes that hit concrete walls and disintgrate--they don't punch through the wall, they vaporize instead.


My God you're stupid. Not all walls are the same. You think the result would be he same if an airplane hit a 1 mm concrete wall, or a wall of a building or a solid steel reinforced block of concrete that was MADE to stop an airplane?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 4, 2012 - 12:17am PT


Wing damage?

Gee, I wonder what happened to the footage from that camera...

National security, I'm certain.


How about in this picture. Can you draw for me where the right wing impacted the building?





Name calling, graniteclimber--it's what lesser minds do when they run out of intelligent things to say.
It appears you started in pretty soon ...
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 4, 2012 - 12:35am PT
Kman, if you carefully compare the photo you posted with the one Monolith posted a few pages back, it's clear that the hole just right of the circle in your picture IS the wing damage. The main highest damage is in the collapsed portion of the building right of that

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 4, 2012 - 12:37am PT
Werner, if you're going to paste text, it's good to cite the course, cause as smart as you are, I don't think you're doing nuclear analysis related to 9-11

I googled it

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/10/29/mini-neutron-bombs-a-major-piece-of-the-911-puzzle/

Peace

karl
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:13am PT
It's good you're in rescue work, Werner. It's something you are good at. I'd trust you to rig a rope I can jug up.

If you were an engineer and worked at a car or plane manufacturer, I don't think I'd want to ride any of those cars or planes. And if you designed a building I wouldn't want to go in it or walk past it. I'm afraid it would self-destruct even before the hamsters wired it with demo charges.

Heh heh heh
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:22am PT
You can't trust the judgement of Hamsters, they're stoners



That's cause they're from Hamsterdam

Just sayin

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:38am PT
It's pretty unrealistic that the Cores would not maintain some visibility as the building went down via the pancake theory. You cannot have a pancake theory without resistance from the Core, and the Core could certainly not pancake.

It makes no sense that the collapsing floors pulled the Cores down since if the attachment was that strong, there would be no collapse. The floors supposedly sheared from the Cores. There is absolutely not way it all pancaked at once.

I had posts on this in the thread that got deleted. It's not a pancake theory--the WTC towers used a "tube within a tube" structure. The inner tube (inner core) was linked to the outer tube (perimeter walls). The theory is that these "unzipped" causing the towers to collapse much faster then they would if they pancaked.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:44am PT
I wrote:

I'd trust you to rig a rope I can jug up.

Werner responded:

Our crew rigged him in such a way that we left him on purpose so he couldn't jug back up.

Werner, thanks for correcting me and informing us that we CANNOT trust you to rig a rope.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:45am PT
Those buildings took hundreds of engineers to design. So a couple of
meatheads on the internet are gonna tell us how they came apart? Right.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:48am PT
The floors connected the inner tube (the core) with the outer tube (the perimeter frame)

What are you saying unzipped exactly?

It was in the NIST report. I don't think they used the word "unzip" but that's what they were describing. I had posts on it in the deleted thread that I spent time on and I don't have the time to redo them now.

But if you like this topic, you should read the NIST report. You don't have to agree with it but at least you will know what you are not agreeing with.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 09:29am PT
If there is nothing to hide then why continue to keep the Pentagon surveillance videos hidden?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 4, 2012 - 10:01am PT
Kman, if you carefully compare the photo you posted with the one Monolith posted a few pages back, it's clear that the hole just right of the circle in your picture IS the wing damage.


Karl, I'm looking at this graphic for comparison:




For comparison, here's the img again. From my perspective, there should be damage where there is none:







####

Collapse from impact damage and fire? You are being lied to:

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 4, 2012 - 10:29am PT
Sorry I linked the wrong image kman. I guess the issue is if that plane is drawn to scale and how much damage the light wingtips made. Wingspan is 125 feet. Count the windows in your image to compare distances



Personally, I think all this demolition and 757 didn't hit the pentagon evidence, true or not is a huge distraction from the real damning questions that come from following the money, able danger, the war games, Norman M's testimony, the identity of the hijackers and how they got their visas and that aspect of it

Peace

Karl
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 4, 2012 - 10:47am PT
The problem with that photo, Karl, is that you can't see anything.

If the graphic that shows the drawn-in 757 is correct, then Houston, we have a problem.

But I agree--we can battle back and forth over the physical evidence. We can also ignore testimony from eye witnesses. We can also ignore the reports that 6-8 of the terrorist "fliers" were still alive after the events.

We can also ignore building don't just collapse they way the three Trade Center towers did, or that the damage at the Pentagon is inconsistent with other airliner plane crashes.

Oh, there is just so much to ignore.

The real key is to follow the money, and to look at the reactions from the events.

W stonewalling any investigation, and a refusal to follow the money. The list of reactions, too, is so very long.
raymond phule

climber
Dec 4, 2012 - 11:12am PT

If the graphic that shows the drawn-in 757 is correct, then Houston, we have a problem.

Why? The damage on the building seems to correspond well to the shape of the airplane. A lot of damage where the fuselage and engines hit and only a little damage where the wing tips hit the walls.
raymond phule

climber
Dec 4, 2012 - 11:21am PT

We can also ignore testimony from eye witnesses.

I guess that you mean the eyewitnesses that saw an airplane flying into pentagon?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 4, 2012 - 11:35am PT
"...only a little damage where the wing tips hit the walls. "


You mean 'zero' damage where the wing tips should have hit the walls. Look again, there is no sign of any impact where the wing tips should have hit.

As for eye witnesses, there were many who saw different things. But the ones who claim seeing other than an 575 are ignored. Also ignored are those from the other two sites (WTC & Flight 93 crash site).

Cheers, out.
raymond phule

climber
Dec 4, 2012 - 11:53am PT

But the ones who claim seeing other than an 575 are ignored.

Obviously ignored by everyone because I do not think that there are information about any .


You mean 'zero' damage where the wing tips should have hit the walls. Look again, there is no sign of any impact where the wing tips should have hit.

I don't know what you see but I see damage.

Do you also think that the collapse of wtc 1 and wtc 2 looks exactly like controlled demolition?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
You may argue that the wing tips were just flimsy aluminum shells but those big ol wads of titanium known as jet engines, where are they and where is there damage?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 12:18pm PT
^^^ Well that blew my mind ^^^
Wow that blew my mind!
Wow that blew my mind!
Credit: philo
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Dec 4, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
By continual reinforcements of all the false notions we've been fed by the governments and the controlled medias, you will trust everything they feed you.

Thus proponents of the "Official Versions" are nothing but stupid sheep led into the slaughterhouses of their own makings.

Just as the stupid fools who maintain and support the barbaric mechanistic animal slaughterhouses and continually eat the remnants of such madness they themselves will be subjected by providence itself to the same slaughter of their intelligence .....

Classic Werner
raymond phule

climber
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:18pm PT

You may argue that the wing tips were just flimsy aluminum shells but those big ol wads of titanium known as jet engines, where are they and where is there damage?

Sorry but I don't know what to say. There are big holes and a lot of damage where the jet engines would have hit the building in the picture I look at.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
But where are the tons of titanium?
raymond phule

climber
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:24pm PT

I have found that people in the 'minority within the minority' have really not taken the time they should to consider everything.

Agree, they should watch the "box video" if they are not already convinced. All needed to understand that the towers couldn't fell like that is a simple application of conservation of momentum.
raymond phule

climber
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:26pm PT

But where are the tons of titanium?
Inside the building? Maybe under the foam? In the pile of debris?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
Inside the building? Maybe under the foam? In the pile of debris?

Nope, never found. Check out the melting temperature of titanium as compared ton the burn temps jet fuel.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
Flight 77 engines at the pentagon were found.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0265.shtml
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:53pm PT
Sorry but i have to laugh uproariously. If you think that teeny part came off a 757 jet engine then you are seriously fooled.
raymond phule

climber
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:56pm PT

Nope, never found. Check out the melting temperature of titanium as compared ton the burn temps jet fuel.

I discussed a picture and you made an obviously incorrect claim about that picture and instead of acknowledging that you start talking about something else.

This is so typical about these discussions. There are a million different conspiracy claims that very often contradicts each other. When one of their claims is disproved they just continue to the next claims and ignoring the first claim. After a while they get back to the old claims again and the circle continues.

What about trying to come up with a single coherent theory that is in agreement with the evidence? There are for example several witnesses that saw a low flying plane heading towards pentagon. There are no witnesses (that I know about) that saw a missile heading towards pentagon.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 4, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
Read the link Philo. Most of the diameter of an engine is the fins and the cowling. The parts shown are the core of the engine, without fins.

Funny how the universally agreed parts of an engine confuse the conspiracy boyz.



You guys thinking that the conspirators would plant parts of a tiny engine to fool the investigators is beyond me.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 02:10pm PT
And yet curiously the inner core of a 757 engine dwarfs that part you presented as fact. Do you know what engine it matches perfectly? Not a twin engine 757.
Jolly Roger

Trad climber
here and there
Dec 4, 2012 - 02:31pm PT
Mono,

Is hell bent on believing he is right, and will never move one bit towards seeing how F-d up this whole thing is.

And yes follow the money.


Much more likely to be a Mussad operation than anything, and all we had to do is play the part. We being our gov't.

That photo of the plane Granite posted, flying past the gate sure doesn't look like a passenger airline to me.

Looks a lot like an F-4 Phantom though.

the funny thing about all this is the believers of the gov't story just fall in line, but never question why other footage was not provided. And why footage from local stores was confiscated.

So, easy to prove, yet nothing is provided. Yet...............they continue to fall in line.
raymond phule

climber
Dec 4, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pentagon/index.html

From your own side.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 4, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
I haven't seen any proof that hamsters didn't do it.






























Caught redhanded leaving the scene.
















































































Why was this left out of the report?













graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 4, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
If there is nothing to hide then why continue to keep the Pentagon surveillance videos hidden?

Werner, because they are trying to hide that it was done by hamsters.













Unless, they are hiding the alternative explanation?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 4, 2012 - 02:44pm PT
You have to wonder why Bush and Cheney INSISTED that they testify together for the commission, behind closed doors, not recorded, and not under oath

asshats of the first degree

peace

Karl
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 4, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
I see, so you can't summarize what you know in the most basic way

I summarized before you even asked this in my 10:38 post yesterday.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 4, 2012 - 02:51pm PT
Philo, don't dig your hole any deeper. If you don't think that is the remains
of a 757 engine then you've been over at Locker's huffing more than your
fair share of his glue. But I suppose those charred and mangled engine
parts could have been planted.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 4, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
You think that is an airplane engine? You believe that?

























Really?













Don't be a klueless sheeple.











locker

Social climber
Douchebag Central
Dec 4, 2012 - 03:00pm PT


"then you've been over at Locker's huffing more than your
fair share of his glue"
...

Someone is in my GLUE???...

WHAT THE FUK!!!...

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 4, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
Why would anyone suggest that?

It's important to keep our eye on the hamsters.



Hamsters are also responsible for rigging the Tour de France. That was an inside job. Armstrong is just the scapegoat.































philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 03:10pm PT
Well I don't think it is a part of a 757 engine and Lockers Glue supply is safe from me. I do think it was a jet engine that was planted there by the guided plane that was flown into the Pentagon.
How do you truth deniers rationally explain that a hijacker who couldn't even adequately pilot a Cessnna was able to make a high speed 270 degree diving and banking turn and still level it out and not touch the grass. Can you present ONE professional pilot who would publicaly claim to be capable of that remarkable maneuver of aeronautic acrobatics.



And we will continue to see the deniers continue to attempt to diminish the significance of inquiry by the mature use of rodent analogies.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 4, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
How do you truth deniers rationally explain that a hijacker who couldn't even adequately pilot a Cessnna was able to make a high speed 270 degree diving and banking turn and still level it out and not touch the grass. Can you present ONE professional pilot who would publicaly claim to be capable of that remarkable maneuver of aeronautic acrobatics.

You see that, Mighty Hiker, you are a "truth denier".

Because I say that hamsters did it, I'm a "truth speaker."

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 4, 2012 - 03:23pm PT
Philo, I have a Commercial Pilot's license and I'm here to tell you that
once a large jet is off the ground it is arguably easier to fly than a
Cessna. You don't even need to touch the pedals. They are designed to be
incredibly stable. Landing one is a whole 'nother thing but those sickos
didn't sign on for that. Your use of the phrase "high speed 270 degree
diving and banking turn" just shows that you don't know what you're talking
about. Any turn necessarily involves banking - no big deal. High speed is relative.
It would have been a high speed turn for a Ford Pinto but not a B-757.
Lastly, it was most definitely not a "diving turn". It was not that
much more radical than many a 'circle-to-land' approach or other common
approaches to many airports around the world. The standard approach to
Hong Kong's old Kai Tak Airport was a much more radical maneuver performed
dozens of times daily by 747's. Admittedly those were not flown by sickos,
for the most part*. Oh, and by the way, ever see the Pentagon in person?
Yeah, Helen Keller could hit that puppy. How the phuk could you miss it?


*If you go to YouTube and watch the myriad examples of landing at Kai Tak
then you will see why I qualified my statement.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 03:33pm PT
Sorry Anders but that response is a dis-service to the question.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 4, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
How the phuk could you miss it?

just check out most of philo's posts and it will become apparent how he can miss certain things....




























Credit: Hawkeye
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 4, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
Flight instructor:

Those stupid hamsters can't fly. They don't even care about learning how to do a proper take-offs and landings. I told them they need to learn that learn that. They say that they can get a job that doesn't require that!

When flying the simulator, they like to crash their planes into buildings and laugh about it. They say they don't need to land!

























































Philo misses the point. The hamsters didn't fly the planes. Nobody did. The hamsters wired the WTC towers, WTC building 7 and the Pentagon for demo.

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 4, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
Only the pilots of Pilots for Truth could not make that easy turn. It's like driving a Cadillac around a steep freeway offramp then going for another 30 seconds straight to your target.

After only 20 hours of instruction, I was doing figure 8's using a barn as the central point in a squirrely Cessna 150.

The fact that he had to make that turn shows he was not experienced, as a more experienced pilot would have not have left himself so high and would be able to go straight in.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Dec 4, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
gc,

i am not an expert....but that is no B757!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 03:53pm PT
Only the pilots of Pilots for Truth could not make that easy turn. It's like driving a Cadillac around a steep freeway offramp.

After only 20 hours of instruction, I was doing figure 8's using a barn as the central point in a squirrely Cessna 150..
Well then you were clearly a better pilot than the AyRab. Do you really want to sound this stupid?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 4, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
Dude, he had a commercial pilot's license. I'm sure he could do such a simple turn.

Is he going to be able to shoot an instrument approach at night to a few degrees. Definitely not, but not required for this mission.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 03:57pm PT
Dude he was talking about a Cessna. Did he fly Jumbo Jets? And dude you have rock shoes I am sure you can solo 5.12. SIMPLETONS.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 4, 2012 - 03:58pm PT
"There are no witnesses (that I know about) that saw a missile heading towards pentagon."

Who said "missile"?

Raymond, if you care to look, you will find many eye witnesses whose testimony you choose to ignore.

For example:

Danner, a civilian pilot and electrical engineer from Hagerstown, Maryland, has recently come forward and told American Free Press that he saw an aircraft that resembled a Global Hawk making a tight turn at high speed before leveling off near ground level and smashing into the Pentagon.

The Global Hawk is a jet-powered unmanned aerial vehicle that is used by the U.S. military but was still being tested in 2001.

"It was not a Boeing 757 that hit the Pentagon," civilian pilot Danner told AFP, "No way."

Yet, the mainstream media has completely ignored eyewitness accounts like Danner's while it has actively promoted the official, but unproven, version that a hijacked Boeing 757 smashed into the Pentagon.


Here's a link that has more complete information, in case you care to have something to discredit:

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=90745


There are many, many more.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 4, 2012 - 03:58pm PT
He had 757 simulator training.

Look for that vid of the low hours private pilot who hit the pentagon 3 for 3 on a real 757 simulator doing the same maneuver.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
He had 757 simulator training.

Look for that vid of the low hours private pilot who hit the pentagon 3 for 3 on a real 757 simulator.


Yeah and my youngest kid can successfully fly, dogfight and land a MIG on a gaming simulator. And he can rack up a prodigious amount of kills on HALO. I bet even you could summit Everest on a climbing simulation.
Not the same as real life. Take a moment and look at the telemetry of that flight before yoou so arrogantly say you could do it.


Guess what size engine a Global Hawk has?
If it looks like a plane and acts like a plane it must be a 757.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 4, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
Yes, lets confuse the smaller parts in a 757 engine with the larger parts in a Global Hawk engine. That'll get us our investigation.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 4, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
Philo, a few hours on Microsoft Flight Simulator would probably suffice
for hitting the Pentagon after the plane was established straight and
level. A phukking blind hamster could do it. It ain't rocket science!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 04:06pm PT
after the plane was established straight and
level.

It is the getting straight and level I have serious doubts about.

Desperate to deny.
One wonders why?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 4, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
I said a real 757 simulator Philo, not a gaming simulator.

The same simulator airline pilots use.

Try to focus Philo.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 4, 2012 - 04:21pm PT




"This man is describing radiation poisoning. Many first responders got leukemia which is only caused by radiation. Period."

Ground Zero: The point directly above or below a nuclear explosion.

~Websters dictionary, 1999.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 4, 2012 - 04:22pm PT
Philo, the planes were at cruise altitude on autopilot, how much more
straight and level do you want? The only tough part was being able to
read the switch labeled 'Autopilot' to turn it off. If I recall that was
one of the specific things the sickos asked about when they forked over
their $$$$ for the real sim training.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 04:27pm PT
Reilly what is the cruising altitude for a 757? And what is the altitude of the ground floor of the Pentagon? What happened between those two points? Or are you saying that a jet traveling at over 500 mph never got more than three feet off the ground and flew straight to the Pentagon?
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 4, 2012 - 04:30pm PT
The pilot sets the descent rate on the autopilot. That's why they took simulator training and had manuals.

Once you know how the autopilot works, you can let it do all the work getting you in the right direction and to the right altitude.

They only traveled 500mph in the final straight approach. The turn was at 300mph.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Dec 4, 2012 - 04:31pm PT
I have no idea whether the Pentagon was hit by a 757, a missile, or a suicide squad of rabid hamsters.

But I can tell you, from personal experience, that taking a 757 down from cruising altitude and landing it right dead on target in the middle of a runway is not difficult, even for someone who has never piloted an airplane of any kind.

Again, I take no side in the battle among however many conspiracy theories are competing here, but I just want to point out that anyone who says it wouldn't be possible for people with little flight training to fly a 757 into the side of that building is wrong.
raymond phule

climber
Dec 4, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
I get the impression that Philo don't know how to fly airplanes. He is good at using the most usual truther talking points though.

One thing is that it is much easier to hit something if you do not care that much about the impact speed.
raymond phule

climber
Dec 4, 2012 - 04:46pm PT

Raymond, if you care to look, you will find many eye witnesses whose testimony you choose to ignore.

I am finally convinced. He only waited 5 years to come forward!

Why should anyone believe him more than the other eyewitnesses that came forward right after the attack? You claimed that testimonies where ignored when they didn't even came forward for 5 years. Should people have read there minds?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 4, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
See, Philo, even a Ghost can fly a 757.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 4, 2012 - 04:52pm PT
Here's an interesting site for us "Truthers."

http://www.brasschecktv.com/videos/the-911-files

Those who want to continue believing what was implanted in our belief system immediately after the attacks need not bother.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 4, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
Raymond, you obviously do not want to do any research on your own. There are many reports from eye witnesses who saw something very different from a 757 hit the Pentagon. I just showed one that was from someone from inside the Pentagon who knows how to identify planes. A very credible story that I knew you would choose to ignore (funny how I knew that before I even posted it).

I couldn't care less if you are convinced or not. It's your choice to believe what you want to. I'm just pointing out some facts--eye witnesses and other items, that show how the Official Story has many holes in it.

Holes larger than the one at the Pentagon.

OK, I really need to be off this thing.
Cheers,
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
Mahalo and aloha K-man
raymond phule

climber
Dec 4, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
I just have to ask. Do you really think that the story you linked to has some credibility at all? Here is more

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi/read/90752

So a complete stranger that wants to help on the crash site get the job of destroying the evidence by collecting it from the lawn? That make sense...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 4, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
Philo,

Please stop buying into the "pilots for truth" slander. They are racists who say that the Syrian hamsters are ignorant stupid muslim AyRabs who can't a paperplane through a window, and would never be able to fly a plane as well as white Christian racists like themselves.

Hamsters are smart, even if they are from Syria. Steve Jobs was Syrian too, and no one called him stupid. The hamsters received training from the finest American flight schools. They are smarter than you.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 05:13pm PT
Enough with your rodent love.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 4, 2012 - 05:13pm PT
I find it ironic that a person with an Illuminati avatar argues for the validity of the Official 9/11 Story.


Now back to your hamster jokes, they're funny.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 4, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
Philo, a few hours on Microsoft Flight Simulator would probably suffice for hitting the Pentagon after the plane was established straight and
level. A phukking blind hamster could do it. It ain't rocket science!

What the f*#k does Reilly know? You'd almost think he is a pilot! Goddamn truth denier kaluless sheeple.


Philo, I have a Commercial Pilot's license and I'm here to tell you that once a large jet is off the ground it is arguably easier to fly than a Cessna. You don't even need to touch the pedals. They are designed to be incredibly stable. Landing one is a whole 'nother thing but those sickos didn't sign on for that. Your use of the phrase "high speed 270 degree diving and banking turn" just shows that you don't know what you're talking about. Any turn necessarily involves banking - no big deal. High speed is relative.

It would have been a high speed turn for a Ford Pinto but not a B-757.
Lastly, it was most definitely not a "diving turn". It was not that
much more radical than many a 'circle-to-land' approach or other common
approaches to many airports around the world. The standard approach to
Hong Kong's old Kai Tak Airport was a much more radical maneuver performed
dozens of times daily by 747's. Admittedly those were not flown by sickos,
for the most part*. Oh, and by the way, ever see the Pentagon in person?
Yeah, Helen Keller could hit that puppy. How the phuk could you miss it?


*If you go to YouTube and watch the myriad examples of landing at Kai Tak
then you will see why I qualified my statement.
raymond phule

climber
Dec 4, 2012 - 05:14pm PT

I just showed one that was from someone from inside the Pentagon who knows how to identify planes. A very credible story that I knew you would choose to ignore (funny how I knew that before I even posted it).

The witness was not inside pentagon in any way. He was just passing by and by coincidence got the important job of collecting the evidence.

I really hope that you are just trolling.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 4, 2012 - 05:15pm PT
"a complete stranger"


Just sayin'
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 4, 2012 - 05:16pm PT
In my post above, does anyone else see that "Flight Simulator" is a link through "coupon companion?


Is this a new Supertopo advertising program?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
So you guys have no doubts or questions about 911? You really believe it went down like the official reports tells you it did?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 4, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
"An eyewitness from the Pentagon has come forward with an astonishing account that debunks the official 9/11 story and corroborates the hypothesis that an unmanned “and weaponized“ Global Hawk drone was involved in the attack."


Raymond, you're right, my bad. He was not "from inside" the Pentagon.

This sentence should read "An eye witness of the Pentagon attack..."

Seriously.
Out. Of. Here.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
Wow people are deleting posts off this thread at a remarkable clip.
Who could be so embarrassed by their posts that they are purging them as quickly as they can?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 4, 2012 - 06:21pm PT
Aww man, what happened? Did you get a cease and desist msg from the Hamster Love Society?
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Dec 4, 2012 - 07:42pm PT
http://www.citizeninvestigationteam.com/
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 4, 2012 - 07:48pm PT
Wow people are deleting posts off this thread at a remarkable clip.
Who could be so embarrassed by their posts that they are purging them as quickly as they can?

McHales Navy has deleted all his posts. The smarter Truthers eventually get embarrassed about their claims.

Or maybe he was seeing the truth and not the Truth.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 4, 2012 - 08:02pm PT
Not very difficult to disrupt kindergartners.

They are easily distracted by furry little creatures.



Gotta suck when the revolution gets derailed by hamsters.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 4, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
So we're out the hamsters and McHales Navy??

A sad day. McHales, what happened? You had good points.

Ditto Werner, good post Tony.

And philo, Mahalo back at'cha... We buds gotta band together. A call to action, indeed.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 4, 2012 - 09:28pm PT
A lot of the conspiracy theories seem to stem from people's need to feel safe. It's almost as if some people just can't believe such a simple plan can really work. As it MUST be something more nefarious and complex.

Not that I don't doubt our current federal government is full of evil and soulless mother-f'ers. Not the presidential puppet figure. The people who really run things rather.

But after reviewing 10 years of evidence, I just don't find anything compelling me to think other than some truly twisted evil men flying fully loaded and fueled jet airliners into various buildings. I'd love to be convinced otherwise and I've watched all of the footage I think...

The building 7 thing does seem a bit odd but it also doesn't make rational sense to think that someone rigged that building to blow without anyone knowing or saying a thing. Ever.

When I was younger I helped a family owned demo company with basic labor. I was just a mule carrying wire, tape, tools, concrete, etc. The amount of preparation and quantity of materials required to bring down a modern steel and concrete structure is VAST. And I never worked on anything close to the size of Building 7... At the time they used shaped charges to sever the main supports (I assume they still do...). Explosives were 5% of the work. The other 94% was careful prep. 1% was luck. We would would work for weeks prepping a building, selectively manually weakening members and gaining access to others. It is back-breaking and exacting work. The engineers would routinely discover that the "blueprints" were fantasy. The actual structure often varied quite a bit. There is simply no way that kind of work can happen quickly in a massive and inhabited building.

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Dec 4, 2012 - 09:29pm PT
The truth is out there. It's the willfully witless that are still locked inside the hamster cage spinning the wheel.
Jolly Roger

Trad climber
here and there
Dec 4, 2012 - 10:08pm PT
It's quite simple!

If a jetliner hit the Pentagon video and photo's that are clear as day would have been released. Even the fuzzy quickie-mart video.


Give me one good reason why not?

Still believe?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 4, 2012 - 10:20pm PT
Tony's video is quite impressive.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Dec 4, 2012 - 10:31pm PT
WB says they used nuclear bombs to take the TT down.

His Proof, there was some radioactivity in the air after the the TTs fell, and some of the 911 responders got leukemia.

Can they do a controlled demolition with nuclear bombs?
No, there is no way to rig the TT with a bunch of little pocket sized nuclear bombs that can be used to take the building down.

There is such thing as a little nuclear bomb, and no one has ever used them for a controlled demolition of a building.
Case closed.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 4, 2012 - 10:34pm PT
Werner wrote:

When did a monkey ever become a human being.

What a crock of sh'it.

The monkey was already there and so was the human.

The human acted like a stupid monkey therefore in his next life was given the body of a monkey.

That's evolution in action, although you can't see it happening with your eyes just like you can't see radio waves with your naked eyes.

Some climbers will be monkeys in their next lives, just wait and see.

What else you wanna know?



Stop changing the topic. It was the hamsters. Not the monkeys.



























monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 4, 2012 - 10:36pm PT




graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 4, 2012 - 10:40pm PT
Can they do a controlled demolition with nuclear bombs?
No, there is no way to rig the TT with a bunch of little pocket sized nuclear bombs that can be used to take the building down

Yes they can!








































If they use BABY HAMSTER-sized nukes.





Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Dec 4, 2012 - 10:52pm PT
F*#king quaint so many years after.

Oh damn ! an airplane wrecked a building !

Yes it did but that wasn't the point. The American Constitution and Bill of Rights were a bothersome obstacle to even more trade and wealth.

Enfranchise everyone in order to create general prosperity ? That's downright socialist and unfair if you have privilege. Those people at our party ? Perish the thought... The USA gave up freedom in order to feel secure in the face of an enemy that didn't wear a sports team outfit (uniform). Globally and locally, it's all different now. Thanks for rolling over on the Patriot Act.

What did we all expect ? The bubble of free thinking from 1965 to 1980 had to end in the face of profit actually working. If you never made above $1,000,000.00 in a year, you weren't even number 3 on the invite list, and if invited, you'd better talk the talk with a wine glass held from the stem or you were silently busted.

All politics are local, especially if your locale is above the 30th floor.

This old event now, regardless of who and what, led to capitalizing on the maxim of,Never let a good crisis go unexploited...
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Dec 5, 2012 - 12:25am PT
the "CIT"--citizen's investigation team--is two young fellows from orange county who have traveled to DC many times, hunting down and interviewing eyewitnesses to what happened at the pentagon.

i hate to say it, but richard gage has refused to support these guys, in spite of the compelling evidence they've put together. i worked with gage for more than a year, and i found him to be rather controlling and also easily sidetracked, but he does what he does well, and he seems to be getting some increased attention recently, both on college campuses and on NPR. if there's interest, i could post the articles we wrote, but they're quite extensive, and i'd rather just refer people to global outlook, from which you can probably still buy a copy.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 5, 2012 - 01:06am PT
Tony, what I like about you is that you don't even pretend to understand science, so I can't blame you for "collaborating" with someone like Richard Gage. You're into folkore story-telling and he tells a good story, if you ignore the science.

But what does he know about hamsters?















k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 5, 2012 - 03:40am PT
CIT focused on one single aspect of the story, and they did it in spades. Their evidence is very damning, and real. Perhaps Gage sees it as a distraction to what he's put together.

While the biggest question is left unanswered, they prove a point. And that single anomaly, where the slip shows, is enough to expose the coverup. Lastly, the film makes the point, the implications are devastating. The big question is what happened to the plane, that's the unsolved mystery in this story.
raymond phule

climber
Dec 5, 2012 - 04:23am PT

Raymond, you're right, my bad. He was not "from inside" the Pentagon.

This sentence should read "An eye witness of the Pentagon attack..."

Seriously.
Out. Of. Here.

I must have misunderstood you. I thought that you meant that the witness was credible because he worked in Pentagen. Now I understand that you thought that the witness was credible because you liked what he said.
Jolly Roger

Trad climber
here and there
Dec 5, 2012 - 08:25am PT
Mono that is far from obvious and been argued many times. If they had footage they would show it. Even the gas stations. You would at least think the 911 commission would have had priveledge.


But nope. Nothing but that 3 frame sh#t show.

What really happened? It sure wasn't an airliner. All this time with computer aided animations being the evidence. Just show some conclusive footage.

Funny how its also the same area that just was renovated.

Open your minds. This little concept should be easy to grasp.

No footage....…no plane
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 5, 2012 - 10:37am PT
If they had footage they would show it

I agree, if they had any more footage of the plane, they would show it.

Gas station security cams don't point to the sky.





Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 5, 2012 - 11:07am PT
If they had footage they would show it. Even the gas stations. You would at least think the 911 commission would have had priveledge.


You notice that the security camera footages from the gas stations and such haven't been released. There could be a number of reasons for this. One reason people suspect is that they show something other than a plane.

a second possibility is that they show a plane or show nothing. This focus on there not being a plan hitting the pentagon (and the controlled demolition of the towers) serves a wonderful function for the government that, as a minimum, allowed 9-11 to happen. It makes the "conspiracy" theory people look far out and fringe, and points everyone away from following the money, people and events like the war games and false blips on the radar screens from the war games. Nobody is talking much about the real damning stuff

Personally I don't know if the towers were brought down with explosives or not. I personally listened a guy who was an architect involved in designing the towers, (he said in collaborations with some japanese) He claimed they put in a demolition capability into the plans as it would be easier and cheaper that way and New York real Estate in that area where the option to tear down and rebuild was optimal.

I don't know what to think about that but note, since people don't think about it, that there was a previous bomb attack on the world trade center that people forget about since it's damage was so limited. Could have been an incentive, if the government was going to let the attack happen, (see project for a new american century's admitted need for such an attack and those guys were our government) that it be successful (and including the need to destroy evidence housed in the area regarding corrupt wall street firm investigations and the missing 2.3 trillion in the defense department

Peace

karl
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 5, 2012 - 11:10am PT
Funny you guys didn't know the Citgo security footage is available. This is old news.

LOL, Karl and his missing 2.3 trillion myth.

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Missing_Trillions
Jolly Roger

Trad climber
here and there
Dec 5, 2012 - 11:10am PT
Well, they were pretty quick to confiscate surrounding footage from cameras.

Not to mention all the other cameras on the Pentagon. I can assure you there are more than 5 cameras on the parapet of the Pentagon pointing to it's perimeter. At least two of those would have said footage.

But no!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 5, 2012 - 11:12am PT
You would at least think the 911 commission would have had priveledge.

Is a "priveledge" like a regular ledge but with a privi at one end?
How does that work?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 5, 2012 - 11:12am PT
Now I understand that you thought that the witness was credible because you liked what he said.

Not true. I believe what he said because I thought he was being truthful about what he saw. And, in case you want to do some research, you'll find that others saw the same thing.

But true to the tee, I have shown that you will ignore those whose statements you do not want to believe, as predicted.

Raymond, have you watched Tony's video yet? Policemen, to me, make very credible witnesses. Especially when they bet their life on their written and spoken testimony. I know it's long, but because you seem interested in trying to debunk the Truth movement, the video might prove to be challenging to you. I'm interested to see how you might try to debunk, or ignore, the taped witnesses.

One thing is for sure: After watching the video, you'd be a fool to believe that the taxi was actually hit by Light Pole #1!
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 5, 2012 - 11:18am PT
Look closely K-Man, outside video is there as well.

Nice observational skillz you have.

Now tell me why a gas station camera would point to the sky?

LOL, K-Man deletes his post.
richross

Trad climber
Dec 5, 2012 - 11:18am PT
The best analysis of the evidence of the twin towers aftermath from Dr. Judy Wood.

Jolly Roger

Trad climber
here and there
Dec 5, 2012 - 11:21am PT
Karl -

It's pointless to follow the money and the end game (the real stuff) with these guys. You point to the players and they call you a rascist/bigot.

I would love to put all the small issue's aside and have conversation on the money, but the majority here could careless, and will only attack.

The bigger issue what is their end game.

I agree!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 5, 2012 - 11:33am PT
K-Man deletes his post.

You're right, I did some research and found that the Citigo video was released--and I had not heard that. So I deleted my post questioning the veracity of the video.
raymond phule

climber
Dec 5, 2012 - 01:19pm PT

Not true. I believe what he said because I thought he was being truthful about what he saw.

And my impression after reading two pages about him are that he seems to be mentally that have made up the whole story after he saw loose change. Seriosly, he was passing by, had nothing to do with pentagon but got the important job of finding the evidence such that it could be destroyed


But true to the tee, I have shown that you will ignore those whose statements you do not want to believe, as predicted.
This is exactly the same as you and other people ignore opeds written by for example Tim Ball when the chief posts them. You should at least try to show an eyewitness with at least some credibility if you want to play that card.


k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 5, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
This is exactly the same as you and other people ignore opeds written by for example Tim Ball when the chief posts them.

Ah, an excuse for having a preset opinion. Perfect.

After many posts showing the science behind AWG, and after every denier claim debunked, we're not just choosing to ignore OpEds, we have merit for choosing to ignore how a minority of scientists skew data to show that AWG does not exist. And The Chief, what a fine example you choose!

Like I said, there are others who saw something other than a 575 hit the Pentagon. You choose to ignore all of their testimony. Instead, you are happy to believe the tale that perfect strangers tell you. And it just so happens to be the one you want to hear.

Question: Do you know when you started believing that 9/11 was caused by terrorists from Al-Queda? Think back, what stranger planted that seed in your mind?

Cheers,
raymond phule

climber
Dec 5, 2012 - 03:24pm PT

After many posts showing the science behind AWG, and after every denier claim debunked, we're not just choosing to ignore OpEds, we have merit for choosing to ignore how a minority of scientists skew data to show that AWG does not exist. And The Chief, what a fine example you choose!

It seems like you missed my point. My point was that there are good and bad skeptic arguments about AGW and there are good and bad arguments and information about 911 conspiracies. I am just not able to take your witness seriously after reading those two pages and I really cant understand how someone can. It is like one of the chiefs copy and paste post. For you to claim that you have proved that I am closed minded about the truth because I do not believe that witness is like the chief would claim that scientist is closed minded about the truth after one of his copy and paste post.


Like I said, there are others who saw something other than a 575 hit the Pentagon. You choose to ignore all of their testimony.

No, I am just not going to search for them.


Instead, you are happy to believe the tale that perfect strangers tell you. And it just so happens to be the one you want to hear.

and that is exactly what you do.

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Dec 5, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
Well, actually I look at and listen to all the information I can. I try to have an open mind to all witnesses and observers, as well as those that look into the details of what happened.


Many, many people have questions that go unanswered. And not just insignificant questions--questions of real merit. When people with these questions get stonewalled, my curiosity goes up.

For example, I see now that in 2006 they finally released a couple of videos, ones that show nothing. However, the many FOI requests asking for the videos that would show something go unanswered.

Why?

Karl points out that there could be many levels of disinformation circulating, and we don't know who is circulating what.

Here's something that just came into focus for me, the taxi cab at the Pentagon that was hit by one of the light posts knocked over by the "plane that hit the Pentagon".

I never really paid much attention, but if you believe that that this car was struck by a 400+ lb. light pole, after it was dislodged by a jet liner, then I see why you'd buy the 9/11 Commission Report:




Can you believe it, not a scratch in the hood (that's the reflection of the windshield you see in the polished hood). Lloyd even said that he drove a ways with the light pole sticking out of his windshield. Pretty hard to believe, no?



But there you go, if you believe the Official Story, then you must believe this too.


Cheers,
Chief

climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
A minor but important aside here.
My apologies to The Chief and all here at ST for using a nickname