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vernon
Trad climber
san francisco, ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 24, 2003 - 10:42am PT
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Wasn't the FFA of the first pitch done without bolts? If so, why are the bolts still there? What is the criteria in deciding what routes with non FA bolts get chopped, and what routes are allowed to have bolts added after FA?
vern
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Jody
Mountain climber
San Luis Obispo County, CA
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May 24, 2003 - 11:46pm PT
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"it was re-established as a sport climb within a couple days"
What are the criteria for calling it a "sport" climb? Trad climbing can include bolts, can't it?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 25, 2003 - 03:07am PT
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Why don't we ask the FA party what he thinks of the bolts before we start a chopping and redrilling nightmare.
There are a few sport climbs on the Cookie and lots of trad climbs. I think this is a case where the opinion of the first ascent party should count for something.
Peace
karl
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vernon
Trad climber
san francisco, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2003 - 10:39am PT
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I am not trying to start a chopping and re bolting war, and am not trying to get someone to go chop this route. I am just trying to understand why post FFA bolts on some routes are allowed to stay, and others are chopped.
The FFA of the first pitch was done by Kurt Smith and Scott Cosgrove, on gear. I do not know what Scott's feelings are regarding the post bolting, but do not believe that Kurt was happy with it. I was told by a valley local that Kurt had talked about chopping the route, and had offered to pay someone to go chop it. I do not know if this is true.
So....., this leads me back to the question from my original post, what is the criteria for chopping post FFA bolts?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 25, 2003 - 11:14am PT
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I don't chop and I don't drill so I'm not trying to make a case for anything here but...
People will tell you all kinds of philosophy about why certain bolts stay and others get chopped, but, on the stone in reality, this is what I've seen happening:
Retrobolted routes that are allowed to stay are usually either
1. Great routes like cookie Monster that mortals wouldn't be able to climb otherwise, so the bolting gets accepted.
2. Routes that people don't care about so they don't bother to chop. There are a few valley slab climbs that have been retroed that fall into this category.
3. Routes when the rebolter was well known and accepted locally or when the first ascent party wasn't well known or accepted locally.
4. Unknown chemistry: for some reason the local community buys it.
Not saying it's right or wrong. Just reality.
Maybe since Kurt became Mr. Bolt down in Mexico and got busted for power drilling in the valley, folks didn't think he cared about cookie monster's bolts.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 25, 2003 - 10:15pm PT
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I emailed Scott. Don't know if he is in travel mode though, since Jtree has got to be getting warm.
Peace
Karl
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Jody
Mountain climber
San Luis Obispo County, CA
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May 26, 2003 - 01:02am PT
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"... and got busted for power drilling in the valley..."
I do not understand this. If drilling is allowed, why NOT allow power drilling? It's not like someone is riding a dirt bike up to the base of a climb or something.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 26, 2003 - 08:47am PT
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Of course you wouldn't understand this Jody!
If Americans are allowed to own guns, why not let them have rocketlaunchers and AK-47s? (answer this in another thread if you must)
First of all, in a National Parks, all kinds of motorized stuff is forbidden. Chainsaws for instance. There is the issue of noise and the issue of ease of destruction.
BTW. I'm not here to judge Scott and Kurt for power drilling. There has been plenty of power drilling here that hasn't been busted. They added very few bolts, mostly replacing anchors and for some pro their free variation. If power drills were only in the hands of experienced and wise climbers, I wouldn't have as many problems with it.
Unfortunately, that's not the case. Nothing like the hard work required to drill flint hard granite to keep folks thinking long and hard about making their mark on Yosemite with some squeeze job.
PEace
Karl
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poop*ghost
Trad climber
Berkeley
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May 26, 2003 - 09:14pm PT
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2 thoughts...
1. The cover of Yosemite Free Climbs features the mentioned route. Why was that route picked for the cover? It's a retrobolted sport route. The valley is so obviously a trad climbing destination, it just makes no sense. always bugged me, but whatever - glad to have the book.
2. No power drills in the valley also makes replacing those 1/4 inch nightmares even slower and harder. Big thanks to the ASCA who replace those crap bolts by hand.
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yo
Sport climber
Fresno, CA
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May 26, 2003 - 10:13pm PT
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One word answer: Daniella
I agree though, it's always bugged me too. A guide to the valley needs a picture of some poor bleeding bastard wedged in the Narrows or something.
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vernon
Trad climber
san francisco, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2003 - 10:27pm PT
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Since Daniela was brought up, did she climb this? Way told me that she was winched up.
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Jody
Mountain climber
San Luis Obispo County, CA
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May 26, 2003 - 10:53pm PT
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"If Americans are allowed to own guns, why not let them have rocketlaunchers and AK-47s? (answer this in another thread if you must)"
I will not answer this out of respect for Karl.
"First of all, in a National Parks, all kinds of motorized stuff is forbidden. Chainsaws for instance. There is the issue of noise and the issue of ease of destruction."
Okay, better ban cars, helicopter rescues in the valley, buses...
I've seen them use chaninsaws in the Valley...I think that motorized thing is just in the "Wilderness", am I wrong?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 26, 2003 - 11:25pm PT
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NPS can use chainsaws and such. Campers can't.
Don't forget that once you're a few hundred feet up the rock, it's considered wilderness by the authorities.
Peace
Karl
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Marin Hot Tub Country
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May 26, 2003 - 11:53pm PT
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bringmebeers wrote:
i will give a free 6-pack of the beer of your choice to anyone who chops this route and patches the holes accordingly...hell i might be buying myself the OE.
I think you should amend that to:
Pending a definative OK from Scott Cosgrove or Kurt Smith,
anyone who has the sack to lead it on gear should
consider chopping said bolts as a way of celebrating
said heroic lead. I mean, until someone actually does
something, there will continue to be a lot of drunken
spewing around the campfire, but no action!
Hardman Knott
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Jody
Mountain climber
San Luis Obispo County, CA
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May 27, 2003 - 12:05am PT
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Thanks for the explanation on the definition of "wilderness"...that makes sense. What if I snowmobile into Tuolomne in the middle of the winter and power drill some stuff, will anybody be around to hear me or catch me?
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Swinger
climber
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May 27, 2003 - 01:01am PT
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YES
There are two winter seasonal rangers in Tuolumne.
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Jody
Mountain climber
San Luis Obispo County, CA
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May 27, 2003 - 01:32am PT
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Don't worry, I wasn't seriously considering it.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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May 27, 2003 - 03:07am PT
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Hey Karl,
actually, the NPS is NOT allowed to use power tools such as chainsaws, helicopters, etc in Wilderness with two exceptions:
1) life threatening emergencies (SARs)
2) where they have previously issued a finding that it's the minimum management tool (i.e. it's the least impact on the Wilderness needed to manage the resource - such as using a helicopter to remove an old cabin rather than have tons of horses trample through a meadow, etc).
It's rumored that the NPS abuses #2 (or ignores it) to get supplies into high sierra camps, etc. However, Wilderness Watch and others have been suing NPS, USFS, and BLM for abuses in the Wilderness, and you'll see trail crews with the big 2-person saws cutting fallen trees in early season, etc.
It could easily be argued that power drilling to replace bolts is the minimum impact needed to replace bolts (from a wildlife perspective, a short buzzing is a lot less impact than 20 minutes of high-pitch pinging). BUT, that would require that old bolts on classic routes be necessary for Wilderness management - not somewhere we (or they) want to go, as it would probably open them up to lawsuits, and open climbing bolts up to administrative decision making on individual routes (e.g. decisions to remove routes). Besides, it'd be tough to argue that bolts are necessary for managing the Wilderness...
Anyway, my main point is that environmentalists can and have sued land managers for misuse of power equipment in Wilderness.
Greg
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Southern Man
climber
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May 27, 2003 - 08:18am PT
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Karl:
Thanks for the infor. on posting e-mail addresses. Hope I got it off in time before harm was.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 27, 2003 - 08:45am PT
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I'm sure you meant no wrong but I think we should think twice before posting folk's email address on the net unless we have their OK to do so.
Computer programs scan the net and harvest email address for spammers. I get emails from time to time that assume that I am the owner of supertopo.com and do I want to buy bulk email CD or some other scam.
Post Kurt's email here and soon he'll have to decide which penis enlargement product to use his herbal viagra with!
;-0
Karl
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Biggy Blort
Social climber
Bosnia
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May 27, 2003 - 10:45am PT
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Karl,
Something tells me that Southern Man was cracking a joke?
i could be wrong, but....
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poop*ghost
Trad climber
Berkeley
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May 27, 2003 - 10:46am PT
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vernon said... "Since Daniela was brought up, did she climb this? Way told me that she was winched up."
That's the word I heard as well... but, for the record I read it for the articles.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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May 27, 2003 - 03:15pm PT
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Poop*...LOL. I've always hated that picture. One day I was grousing about how stupid it was to have a chalked up bolted crack on the cover of the guide for a place with so many awesome natural adventures. Couldn't they have found a nice girly shot that didn't show off one of the Valley's biggest ethical anomalies (or abominations depending on your perspective)? I hadn't even heard the winching story yet when I remarked that I found it hard to believe that a woman that squishy looking and in such a coiffed and relaxed state at the bolt had just climbed 5.12. (I've heard about the winching...I guess the tactics fit the route.)
My retrobolt gripe of the weekend...Someone (who we believe is someone who claims to be the bad-assest of the bad-ass climbers) put a route up on Middle Cathedral that intersects the lower pitches of Paradise Lost. The run-outs on these lower pitches of PL now have a couple of brand new bolts along with a fixed pin and a couple of number 2 fixed heads. Ray Jardine did it without the bolts in 1972. Hmmm?
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Biggy Blort
Social climber
Bosnia
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May 27, 2003 - 04:32pm PT
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That new route on Middle Cathedral deserves the chop
History lesson time; the bold run-outs on PL courtesy of one Rik Reider. He was the boldest and baddest and how did JElvis put it? "would have changed the face of climbing" had he a few more years to ply his craft. ...alas...
And WHO is this new wave baddest ? DP? or....
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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May 27, 2003 - 05:04pm PT
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I wonder if that's the route I saw being drilled last November. My partner and I were on Central Pillar of Frenzy. The only other person on all of Middle Cathedral was a guy bolting off to our right quite a few hundred feet.
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bigwalling
climber
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May 27, 2003 - 07:18pm PT
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"Post Kurt's email here and soon he'll have to decide which ment product to use his herbal viagra with!"
Oh god, that is too funny!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 27, 2003 - 10:46pm PT
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Thanks for taking Kurt's email address off the forum. It was edited quick enough that I'm sure there's no harm done.
I'd be interested in knowing about the new route by Paradise Lost.
I did Paradise Lost last year and enjoyed it. Thank god it wasn't harder because it's no sport route. I've done lots of these Cathedral Routes like Stoner's, DNB, North Butt, Bircheff, Ho Chi Mihn, Quicksilver, Freewheelin and so on. Logged a couple 35 footers and some other good whips.
It does kinda make me sad that there isn't a moderate face route with decent pro for the average climber on that rock. You see people waiting around for hours to do Central Pillar and East Butt when there is so much good climbing nearby.
I'm not advocating retrobolting (although I've talked to two first ascent parties who were considering going back and adding bolts to their old lines. They said they were just poor and in a hurry when they established the routes and wished more folks could enjoy them.) But if somebody put up a new line by PL, I'm not going worked up over it. If the FA guys want to go back and spruce up their old work, that's fine with me too.
Peace
karl
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alasdair
Trad climber
scotland
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May 28, 2003 - 05:07am PT
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How are all those routes they look excellent. Is there gear between the bolts? Is it worth bringing a peg hammer or something? Is it worth carrying a large selection of small stoppers/offsets/rps etc?
alasdair
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arockclimber
Trad climber
The Adirondacks
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May 28, 2003 - 09:01am PT
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A example of "If you don't like the bolts, don't clip them"...
Two or three years ago my buddy and I belayed Rodman on the Monster. Impressive as hell to watch him send using Offset nuts and Aliens for gear. Not well protected, and hard climbing! The only bolts he clipped were on the anchor, a PROUD send if I've ever seen one!
On the other hand, I kind of like the fact that I can work the thing when I go to the Valley and "whip at will". I'm not a hardman like Rodman, so the bolts give me a chance to climb a amazing line! (I'd never try to lead the thing on gear, the climbing is too hard and the gear is not so good.) So if Kurt and Scott don't have any problem with the bolts.....
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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May 28, 2003 - 01:36pm PT
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Karl...I'd love to see more moderate routes, but I don't htink that Stoners, PL, DNB, or any of these historical routes should become clip-ups to provide me with that experience. If one were a strong enough climber to do these routes if they had better pro, then that person should have no problem finding both classic and obscure routes to hone their skills on in the Valley. Don't you think that the lines at CPofF and EBofM are partly the result of a herd mentality and not a simple lack of routes? Other alternatives for mortals include Kor Beck and North But of Middle which get way less traffic. Pee-Pee Pillar and the first pitch of PL are other goodies. Trot up the hill, and you have Braille Book, NE But of Higher, and several climbs on the Spires. For reasonably bolted face routes...trot over to the Middle Cathedral Apron.
Although I doubt I'll ever have what it takes to lead the runouts on PL, this person chose to put a two bolt anchor right in the middle of a PL pitch (not off to the side). They also put an ugly green bolt where there is run out but a really bomber hold if you take a second to feel around up high. The put fixed heads inches away from a fixed pin. Their route only overlaps with the second and part of the third pitch of PL, so it doesn't really do anything to make the climb more accessible to anyone. The result of their handiwork is a route that becomes 5.11 up higher, is still too difficult and run-out for the average person standing in line at the base of CPofF, and botches the respect for ethic bolting only at the otherwise unprotectable cruxes that the PL party was observing when they climbed the route in crappy boots a year before I was even born.
"Don't clip the bolt" is a nice sentiment. J didn't clip the added lead bolt. How can you ignore and anchor dressed in a wad of bail sling 30 feet into a pitch though?
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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May 28, 2003 - 01:49pm PT
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Back to the original topic...
COILER,
A person who "admires all that you have to say" told me to ask you to post a picture of the cover to your Reid guide.
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Jody
Mountain climber
San Luis Obispo County, CA
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May 28, 2003 - 02:36pm PT
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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May 28, 2003 - 02:47pm PT
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Thanks.
Word has it that Coilers is extra special though.
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rbreedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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May 28, 2003 - 03:34pm PT
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At the risk of sounding like an old-know-it-all, I can fill in a historical perspective on bolts on Middle.
In the early 1970s there was a strong ethic from the late 1960s that you should not use bolts. There was also a new ethic forming that said that bolts were better than pins if you could not get in a nut.
Right in the middle of this changing ethic, a small group of mostly dedicated free climbers--it's the same names in differnet combinations that have most of the first ascents in those early days--started putting up lines on Middle where there were no cracks for protection.
The reason that those routes have long run outs is because that was part of the deal: those route were some of the first "acceptable" bolting in the Valley after the bolt wars and right as bolts became part of the clean climbing ethic. That acceptablity came at the price that the route had to be good and at the price of accepting "standard death falls".
Although it may no longer matter, it seems to me that a piece of that history, which probably led to sport routes 20 years later, is being lost if the NE face and the Apron are filling up with
hangers.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 28, 2003 - 09:45pm PT
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Sorry to hear that the new line by Paradise lost is a botch job. Some Lines interscet a bit up on the Middle Cathedral Apron without too much trouble.
I was just there today, on Quicksilver, since it was shady. God that climb is as horrifying as 5.9 gets. Even Paradise Lost seemed more "there"
Somebody asked about the lesser know Middle routes.
Bircheff-Williams is technically harder than many but better protected than most. Good route.
Space Babble to the left of B-W (I've only toproped space Babble after climbing Kor Beck) Total death route, but some of the best 5.9 face in the valley. Not even safe to rap because of some bad anchors. Years ago Kauk talked about adding some bolts (it's his route) but I'm sure he didn't get around to it. (not to make it a clip up but there are pitches with no pro)
Stoners is technical and medium run-out. Up higher there is tough route finding with some bigger runouts. Great route though.It's got newly replaced bolts on it.
Paradise lost is far easier than the above but runouts are more severe and some bolts haven't been replaced. (what few there are)
Ho Chi Mihn Trail takes of after the scary face pitches of the DNB. Not as many grunt sections but harder than the DNB. The 10c OW is pretty light for the grade so fear not. (I led it, how bad could it be?)
Quicksilver and FreeWheeling take very good route finding skills and scare me! I took a 35 footer on Freewheeling on a 10b pitch years ago. I went back to face that pitch years later and the bolt that caught my fall was completely missing, so I bailed. I hear they have both been rebolted except for the last pitch.
I don't like the North Buttress. It's not as easy as the topo suggests and the crux pitch is wierd. The chimney above the crux pitch runs with water in the spring.
For the face climbing routes on middle I recommend RPs, Offsets, Aliens and for god sakes Screamers! Don't bring a hammer, in my opinion.
Peace
Karl
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Jody
Mountain climber
San Luis Obispo County, CA
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May 28, 2003 - 10:25pm PT
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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May 29, 2003 - 01:44pm PT
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"If you haven't led a given route then opinions about the lead climbing protection don't seem relevant."
Were you strictly talking about Cookie Monster?
Did you mean with the exception of certain routes that have larger traverses where a bolt protects the crux move for the leader only? PL is one of these routes, but the offending bolts end up impacting the leader much more in this case. (They are placed in a vertical former run-out and before a traverse.)
[rant]
Even if I haven't lead a route, I want to protect the climbs that I aspire to be able to do. I also want to protect the character of an area that I love.
If climbing on Middle was strictly about good pro, then Middle would have given us 50 CPofF's. Instead she gave us wandering face features that are not easily protected without the use of either great caution and skill or bolts. Although the FA's favored the former, enough bolts were used to make these routes hair raising, but not death routes.
Also, it would seem really aestheticly bizzare to me to have bolts on the wandering features that require lots of ziggy zaggy up and down climbing and traversing. The character just isn't that of a sport route. I wouldn't want to contrive sport-style climbs the peice of rock that offer the most and longest commiting yet moderate traditional free climbs in Yosemite.
Perhaps waiting in line at CPofF is part of the price of admission for getting on the more committing stuff where you get to be alone most of the day? I get so frustrated with being stuck in that line sometimes that it makes me shout, cry, or behave in other unproductive, self-depricating ways. Still, I'd rather work my way up to the trick stuff and earn my place there with both tecnique and self-confidence than have someone serve it up to me on a platter.
As someone who would be a good candidate to use better protection as training wheels to compensate for my lack of time and probably talent learning the skills, I really feel that the place for lowering the bar with copious bolts to accommodate me is at the _crags_ on _new lines_ and not on or even squeezed by classic and subtle Grade IV face climbs.
I am also of the mind that the statement that the FA made when they put up the route is often far more interesting than what they have to say about it 20 years after the fact, especially when they no longer have the mettle to make the original statement of bold action.
[/rant]
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 29, 2003 - 06:51pm PT
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I think you're making a lot of assumptions if you say that if a first ascender goes back and adds a few (not a big line) of bolts to his or her old route that it means they don't have the mettle to do it anymore.
The folks I know who put up some of those routes are climbing 5.13 and 5.14 in their forties. Perhaps their perspective changed with time. Perhap they had to turn in cans to buy bolts in those days and wanted to cruise their FA in a day rather than establishing a work that could be enjoyed by serious climbers instead of just nobody.
The idea that sort-of moderate super run out climbs must wait for the elite to come enjoy them with their large cahones is often a fantasy. Space Babble, for instance, is a great climb. When I top-roped it on rappel, I could tear the one inch webbing at the anchors in half with my bare hands! Perhaps the folks who get good enough to basically solo whole pitches of 5.9 and 10a feel like climbing other stuff instead.
This isn't meant to be a statement to advocate retobolting. I think routes should be maintained in a style that takes into account the desires of the first ascent party but also in keeping with the consensus ethics of the area.
But to state that regardless of the first ascent party's wishes, that routes should be maintained in their original state in case you feel like leading them at some future time seems selfish and elitist to me. It's the tax cut to the rich. Everybody else should suffer so that the most worthy can have it their way.
Peace
Karl
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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May 29, 2003 - 07:07pm PT
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Karl, if this were a discussion about a one bolt for lead pro or free solo of a 5.8's in Tuolumne by a 5.13 climber, I'd be more in your camp. If you are capable of leading 5.11 in good style (Space Babble) or even 10c (Peices of Eight) even with sporto-style bolts, you could spend 3 lifetimes climbing in Yosemite without running out of decent, reasonably protected routes to do.
"that routes should be maintained in their original state in case you feel like leading them at some future time seems selfish and elitist to me. It's the tax cut to the rich. Everybody else should suffer so that the most worthy can have it their way."
If J is elite, it's because he's put in the time. Part of that time has included maintaining the hardware on more moderate routes for gumbies like me. An even bigger part of that time has included being a gumby himself and getting scared shitless over and over, having epic after epic on the moderate stuff. It's not as though he were born into the ability to climb a 10c with runouts the way people are born into money. If he started reporting FA solos of 5.6's then he'd be being elitist, IMO.
I would say and so would J that preserving certain routes as something to aspire to makes those that are truly dedicated to their climbing better climbers. Those who don't want to do the work or who through some combination of external obligations and/or lack of talent or courage are incapbale of attaining these difficult goals will still be able to go climb any number of socialized offerings generaly established and maintained (both physicically and financially) by the elitists who aspire to the bolder routes.
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Matt
Trad climber
SF Bay Area
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May 29, 2003 - 07:15pm PT
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It seems to me that to go back and add bolts to a climb way after the fact is just to open a huge can of worms.
It's one thing when Roper goes and adds pins to Snakedike on the 2nd ascent (w/ the permission of the FA team), but to add bolts much much later seems to me to be taking the climb in its own historical context and somehow rejecting it.
Ironicly, the problems I see are in some ways equivalent to changing the grade of a climb down the road (which many folks here didn't seem to mind).
But for me, here is the crux:
The climb exists- it is already a climb- it goes just like it is.
So what if more people would lead it, were it only safer?
I would lead the nose if only it were easier, but you don't see me headed to the great roof w/ my drill and chisel set.
You are still talking about changing an existing climb to make it more to your liking...
"Warning!
This file already exists!
Do you want to replace the existing file?
Are you sure?"
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 29, 2003 - 10:34pm PT
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From the above replies, it looks like the most popular 5.12 in Yosemite is going away soon. It's not a personal issue with me, I'm too weak to sport climb!
Which brings us back to the poster's original question. Why are some added bolts allowed to stay? I'm sure the Hubers wouldn't need the bolts that were added to the last pitch of the nose in order to free it, and how about those free bolts right next to a crack on the Nose's changing corner's pitch? One of the most classic and historic routes in America! There are a long list of these kind of routes.
But I would beg to differ with Melissa about the quantity of good well protected routes in Yosemite if we're talking about face climbing. I've done the vast majority of longer face climbs under 5.11 in they valley and I can't seem to remember manythat don't have dangerous runouts. Can you name me five face climbs 4 pitcher or over that have good pro? Again, I'm being a bit of a devil's advocate. I enjoy being able to go out and never have a line on the face routes that I like.
Let them eat crack!
Peace
Karl
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BrentA
Gym climber
estes park
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May 29, 2003 - 11:06pm PT
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Not to be a chump...
Royal Arches
EB of El Cap
EB of MIddle Cathedral
Steck/Salathe ????????
First pitches of CPofF
Runout is kind of variable, curious how far from bomber placements people generally accept as being "runout"?
For the Cookie Monster thing...I am torn. My first 12a onsight, probably cuz of the bolts (I mention only so you cyber-hoos say not to spout if you havent' been on it). Wonderful pitch.
My buddies were baiting me to climb it clean. Eyeing it up and after climbing it I don't think it would have been that bad. The previously posted account of the fellow leading it on gear says its butch, so I'll take his word.
I remember(resinated brain) that this was initially reported as 12c and then bolted and grade lowered.
Who was the first person to bolt this, and how did they justify it?
I hate bolted cracks, and I wonder how this one snuck in.
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BrentA
Gym climber
estes park
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May 29, 2003 - 11:07pm PT
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Sorry Karl...reread your post and you said "face climbs"
I humbly bow out..
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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May 30, 2003 - 12:25am PT
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First of all, there aren't that many bolted face routes over 4 pitches in Yosemite in the first place. They following are no sport routes and some have a bit of crack, but you probably aren't going to end up paralyzed or dead either if you skid...
1. Mid Life Crisis
2. DNB to p7
3. Stoner's Highway
4. Crest Jewel
5. Arches Terrace (is R but should be no problem for someone who can climb 5.10 or 5.11 with more bolts)
6. Snake Dike (also R, but again, no problem for a 5.11 climber).
7. Royal Arches...tons of very moderate face.
8. After Six (3 pitches of a 5 pitch climb are mostly face)
Really it's the sub-5.8 routes that are the most lacking in the Valley. Just imagine how many more people Snake Dike would be accessible to if it had more bolts? Anyone want to sign up for that duty?
The Cobra (11a R) is one of the raddest looking lines in the Valley, IMO. I'll probably never be able to lead it. Oh well. I guess that it is my sad lot in life to simply be ispired by those that can while I admire it from down below
Personally, I find super-bolted multi-pitch climbs a la Potrero Chico kind of revolting and I am glad that the local ethic (probably along with the duress of hand drilling in granite) has kept these routes at bay. If you can climb 5.10 or 5.11 and you are still standing in line in Yosemite because you don't like the cracks and are too afraid of the face, then you need to go to Owens or Big Chief or find an undeveloped area in the Valley to put up your climbs.
Still, if you are hell bent on seeing these types of climbs in the Valley, why do would you want them to replace existing climbs?
Karl, it's no mystery why I'm not out putting up new 5.10- 5.11 face climbs. I couldn't. I do hope to find a couple of nice cracks that suit people near my level this season though. You, however, claim to have already done many of these bold leads. Instead of justifying the retrobolting the ones that you've done, ones that once attracted the same attention in the climbing communtiy as the hardest sport routes and boulder problems do today, why don't you go put up some of these moderate 5.10's and 11's (oxymoron?) lines that you find so sorely lacking? J and I are advocating preserving these ones, and we'll be putting our money and time where our mouths are by updating their hardware on any that we are capable of ascending.
Chopping bolts on aid lines once they are freed is a whole other can of worms. I passed my bandwidth quota for the day a long time ago, so I'm leaving it alone... It would seem though that the most respected free ascents of aid lines at the moment are those that are accomplished respecting the boldness of the aid line, and not destroying it by adding bolts. (i.e. Rumors about WDD really pissed people off whereas people aplauded Huber for running it out on very hard climbing with a single beak for pro on Corazon.)
Thoughts that J specifically asked me to pass on...(he doesn't have a web browser, so I'm paraphrasing)...If people were talking about making these climbs more physically accessible by chipping holds, everyone would be outraged. Slab climbing is not particularly strenuous on the body. It is strenuous on the mind. Perhaps given this factor a 5.10 R can be much more difficult than a 5.12 sport route. Just as it would be an anathema to chip the 5.12 down to a 10, it should be seen as an equal desacration to bolt the R down to a PG.
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WBraun
climber
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May 30, 2003 - 12:46am PT
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To all you obsessive folks with your bolt problems;
Dave Shultz first bolted it...ask him why, not me. For your info Kurt Smith almost died trying this route on the first ascent. He had his friend aid it with pitons and nuts and cams. (Friend was very inexperienced with placing pitons) At the crux he placed two Lost arrows. When Kurt tried to lead it he fell at this crux. As I was lowering him the pins shifted and if they had come out he would have hit the deck.(they came out by hand). The consciousness at the time was not about bolts or pins or clean but in doing this line free. The rock is fairly crumbly in various places and several KEY holds have broken in the past years making some of the moves harder. Nuts and cams can rip out easily on this cimb and you know the scenario that can result. Most of you haven't seen enough of the people we've picked up at the base after one of these hit the deck missions. Get a life folks and go climbing stop worrying about all this bolt sh#t. Werner Braun
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 30, 2003 - 01:11am PT
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First of all, thanks for any hardware upgrades that you and J are involved in. You should know that I think J is a great guy and I have lots of appreciation for you as well.
There are dozens of multipitch face routes in the valley!
I'm afraid you failed to come up with a list of face climbs with OK pro. Crest Jewel might qualify as well protected but calling the Arches or After Six a face climb is a stretch. A 100 foot fall is possible on the rest of those routes you listed. I don't think Snake Dike should be made safe, but it's hardly an example of a route with OK Pro. Somebody fell 200 feet on it! (they were OK, if I remember)
I'm not an advocate of retrobolting or chopping. I'm just hashing out the ethic and discovering what people think and why. Folks pay lip service to the desires and rights of FA parties, but often just want things their own way.
Yosemite has tons of multipitch face climbs. I think it's kinda sad that vast quanities of rock have been climbed but so little is available to most climbers. It's not about me. I don't bolt and I don't chop. But I don't see the point in hanging on to every single death route in the valley whether the first ascent party wants to upgrade it or not.
I also never said anywhere that any of these lines should become sport routes. There has been some nasty retrobolting on Poker Face and Sleight of Hand. Somebody went too far.
On the other hand, the first ascender of Dakshina is headed back to that route this year to replace the old bolts and turn the death runouts into R runouts. Would you like to protest in advance so he doesn't have to face somebody chopping his own route. Anybody here done Dakshina?
It's a bit irrelevant anyway. Most folks hate slab routes these days. I'm just a dinasaur. I go to the Arches Apron, GP Apron, and Middle all the time and it's great to have the peace of nobody in line for the routes. I'm totally willing to go along with the consensus of the local community, but it's important to dialog to find out what that consensus is.
Peace
karl
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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May 30, 2003 - 01:30am PT
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Werner and Karl gave good explanations why the bolts
on Cookie Monster have stayed (and will continue to stay) -
just too many positives for keeping them there, and too
many negatives from removing them.
I'd like to say more about bolts on Middle Cathedral,
but I'd like to see it appear under a separate thread.
Clint Cummins
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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May 30, 2003 - 01:39am PT
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Karl posted (a few days ago):
>Ho Chi Mihn Trail takes of after the scary face pitches of
>the DNB. Not as many grunt sections but harder than the DNB. >The 10c OW is pretty light for the grade so fear not.
>(I led it, how bad could it be?)
There is no 5.10c ow, the way I do the Ho, at least.
Perhaps the topo is unclear. The topo in "Yosemite Climbs:
Free Climbs" (Don Reid, 1994) is accurate and does not
say 5.10c ow anywhere. Probably you are thinking of the
start of p12, where it says "5.10c lb (lichen)". Some people
prefer to climb the (5.9?) wide crack to the left, rather
than do the lieback/undercling to the right in the lichen.
Clint
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rbreedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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May 30, 2003 - 03:56am PT
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Karl: "Let them eat crack" LOL.
Roger
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BrentA
Gym climber
estes park
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May 30, 2003 - 08:26am PT
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Werner...
Thanks for answering my questions. Your route history and rationale for bolting are also much appreciated.
Hmmmmmm...Dave Schultz? Never heard of him, he must be a weenie!
PSYCH!!!! Uber proud brotha!
With this little tale I hope my young peers defer to the wisdom of their elders and leave the bolts in situ.
Cheers,
Brent
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vernon
Trad climber
san francisco, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2003 - 09:07am PT
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Sorry everyone. When I originally posted this question, I wasn't trying to piss everyone off. I am not a super star climber, just a regular guy who was trying to understand the local ethics. I guess there is no easy answer. I still don't get it. Dave Schultz is bad ass, and put up a bad ass route, so it wasn't chopped? Was Walt Shipley any less of a bad ass? He told me that he put a bolt on the EB of El Cap to make it easier and safer for him to guide. I believe it wasn't chopped until after he died. So, I guess the criteria varys with whoever is the chopper. Like Werner said, let's just let it go, and get on the stone. PLEASE do not chop Cookie Monster!
Take Care
Vern
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 30, 2003 - 09:51am PT
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Don't be sorry Vern. We might have set the world record for civil discussion on this issue without descending into name calling!
Interesting how the myth and the history differ too.
Best wishes and respect to folks on both sides of the issue. Let's keep sharing the rock in the wisest cooperative way we can manage.
PEace
karl
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CF
climber
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May 30, 2003 - 11:44am PT
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The route was first done with fixed pro and pitons. Yes Daniella did do the route. If you chop this route it will be replaced with bolts that are even harder to chop. So if you want a lot of old holes and bashed down bolts go ahead and chop it. IT WILL BE REBOLTED AND QUICKLY.
If you are really concerned about non-first ascent bolts why don’t you go chop all the non-first ascent bolts on El Capitan? Over half of the bolts on the Nose were not place by the first ascent party.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Marin Hot Tub Country
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May 30, 2003 - 02:04pm PT
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This has been a great thread. Really nice to hear from those
with first hand info -- quite refreshing in fact. Thanks!
It would be especially ludicrous for the route to be chopped
by someone who hadn't led it placing gear on lead,
something even the FA-ist's didn't do. So WTF is the point?
Hardman Knott
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Matt
Trad climber
SF Bay Area
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May 30, 2003 - 02:15pm PT
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btw-
When I wrote: "It seems to me that to go back and add bolts to a climb way after the fact is just to open a huge can of worms", I should have said "...add or remove bolts way after the fact..."
Also-
I didn't really get the idea from what I read here that anyone was seriously advocating the chopping of this line, someone was just asking why the bolts were there when the climb was 1st done w/out them, and why they had stayed when other bolts get chopped (and I thought WB gave a pretty good explanation- thanks).
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Pastrami
Trad climber
Somewhere on this Planet
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May 30, 2003 - 02:52pm PT
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It was refreshing to read balanced posts from guys like Karl. I am wondering why most of the bolt wars/word-wars are started and fed by younger people... It seems to me that these people are so full of themselves they got to some level (any level), that they seem threatened by any other approach. No matter the subject, when I see someone overly vocal about a subject, a question comes immediately to my mind: what is sub-conscientiously threatening this person to provoke such a passionate/extreme reaction (see Freud/Jung)? 9 times out of 10, it is some sort of "achievement" they realized and feel threatened by others (I cannot climb 5.14, but I have sack because I sewed that thin crack every 2 feet, or I can climb 5.13 and that guy that does those aid moves - that scare me to death - is a moron, etc).
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Alexey
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:50am PT
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Most of you haven't seen enough of the people we've picked up at the base after one of these hit the deck missions. Get a life folks and go climbing stop worrying about all this bolt sh#t. Werner Braun bump old, interesting tread
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| Messages 1 - 57 of total 57 in this topic |
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