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other
Trad climber
LA, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 15, 2012 - 02:11am PT
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What's the update on williamson rock access? There's been no word from troy Mayr/friends of williamson, access fund or USFS. Williamson was a major so cal sportclimbing destination up to seven yrs ago when it was closed for wildlife protection despite there being no scientific reason to do so.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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It seems the frogs are thriving, perhaps its time to re-open Williamson?
Never going to happen....... you see now its the center of frog universe.
The sad fact is this..... the pools where these critters live is about 50 yards mim from the nearest climbs. You don't need to go close to the pools
on the approch. All they needed to do was rope off the pools, notify you not to come anywhere near the pools and the froggies would have been fine.
But that is not how our government works.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Forward this information to this Jimmy Carter appointee.
Northern California U.S. District Court Judge
Marilyn Hall Patel
She closed Williamson under threat of lawsuit brought by the Center For Biological Diversity.
Their teams of lawyers clog our judicial system with lawsuits not meant to win, but to cost government agencies so much money to defend, they would rather bow to these manipulators of our democracy than to defend it.
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/index.html
The CBD caused the closure of Williamson Rock, period.
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middle joe
Trad climber
OC
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Unless you've got a couple hundred grand to hire a bulldog attorney, don't ever expect to climb there again.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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The bulldog attorney ought to be supplied by the Access Fund, provided they think they can win the case. You might also want to see if you can rustle up that $200K from private capital. There must be enough people down in SoCal that are angry about this closure that one among them also has deep pockets. You want an attorney who makes it his personal business to return again and again to the case like a great white returning to a bleeding seal. They'll never be able to get rid of him. Good luck!
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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You don't think maybe, if a few thousand people send a e-mail to the Forest Supervisor and local politicians, as well as Senators Boxer and Feinstein...that something might happen.
The USFS is the one who issued the closure order, so they can lift it.
Btw the closure order expires at the end of this month, at which point the Forest Supervisor has to reissue it, or not.
With all the new evidence that the frog is doing well, and fungus was the problem, not people, plus the order expiring...this would be a good time to speak up!
Where is the Access Fund or FOWR??? Did they just give up completely?
Someone needs to start a petition and e-mail letter to copy and paste, and post it on all climbing websites.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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The USFS is the one who issued the closure order, so they can lift it. This was true in '05 but since the ruling by Judge Patel in July of this year, it no longer stands.
I've spent countless hours on this issue. Collecting emails, endless phone calls to officials, coordinating letter writing campaigns and 2 seperate meetings with local Congressman Buck McKeon's office which included members of the USFS, FSW, Access Fund and FoWR (1st meeting).
The Lawsuit brought by the CBD either convinced Judge Patel she was doing good by closing Williamson or bullied her into making the decision. I hope it wasn't the latter of the two but, that is the CBD's modus operandi.
When I have time I will continue the fight but it will take more than a few hundred emails to change this situation.
Judge Patel needs to know what is really happening here and how the CBD is manipulating the 'system' for their own special interests.
There are members of the CBD on this forum.
Anyone that really cares and wants to get involved can do their home-work first and start a letter writing campaign to inform the Northern Judge of the facts. I will help with any information I can provide or in any way I can.
The USFS may be allowed to open Williamson again in two or three years but it will be on a very restrictive basis and will continue to be prone to closures.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Dude. If you are low-key you can go climb that choss pile any time you want.
LOW - KEY doesn't go with the "sport" crowd. They gotta make it a "scene."
Plenty of other rocks in the forest too.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Not a good idea Spider.
Disobeying this order carries a maximum 5yr imprisonment and/or $10k fine.
There are other places to climb in the ANF, it just sucks to have a special interest group dictate when and where we recreate.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Stupid frogs, crazy frog people. Meh.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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I'm just curious.
The last time I looked around up there, a few months ago, there were no postings about a closure anywhere. I did not go climbing but I looked around. No signs at the parking area. No signs at the trail head or on the approach. No indication anywhere of a closure. I did not go all the way down to the crag but the signs used to be all over the place.
So.
If a climber comes in from out of the area, goes to REI and buys a copy of SoCal Sport Climbs and heads up to Williamson and has a great day climbing have they committed a crime?
Fill me in Pud. No signs? Is it really still closed? How can they enforce a closure which is not posted publicly?
edit: comparing tunnel crags to Willie is a joke.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Hey MisterE why edit your post. Just jump in and agree. You know I'm right and I didn't mean to imply that you feel otherwise. Tunnel is Tunnel. Willie is Willie. Sorry if I came off too harsh. Just a reflection of how pissed I am about this whole deal.
Another question for "those in the know who for all these years have said don't dare confront authority here."
Where has the Access Fund been on what should be a top tier issue - a major sport climbing crag near one of the largest urban areas in the country? I've asked this question many, many times over the last decade and the response is dead silence. Or worse; "don't stir the pot, we've got this covered."
Seriously Pud, explain what is going on or get out of the way. Maybe it's time for the next team.
edit: Maybe Pud is not who I think he is and I'm barking up the wrong tree. Sorry if that's the case. I am just so frustrated by this raw deal. I know I am not alone.
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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ACSD has gone to bat on this issue, and has made some headway on the issue. There are no promises, and it'll most likely take years, but the area may be reopened with the exception of the walls down in the creek bed. We don't have another meeting until the end of January, but if I remember I'll try to get an update on the issue and post a quick summary here.
Josh
Edit: Sierra Club is as bad as the CBD down here in San Diego.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Sorry Kris - I wasn't comparing - just trying to make the best of a bad situation. I loved Williamson, climbed there on my way to Josh one year before it closed.
Not from around here, and skeerd of the repercussions of my local intrusion... this is from personal experience.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Ksolem,
I've been fighting this issue since the beginning.
I climbed at Williamson every month, for many years.
Like I said in the earlier post. I've spent countless hours fighting this issue.
I've used my company staff and resources to research, call, investigate every angle of the closure. Paying them their regular salary all the while.
I've fought this issue loud and clear. I spent days and weeks trying to get ST, Mountain Prboj, RC.com... everyone to scream loud about this unfair closure. Many people sent meaningful emails.
I presented these emails along with reasons to open Williamson to the people responsible for the closure at Buck McKeon's office after organizing the meetings. Jesse Bennett of FWS attended the last one ( along with USFS, AF, and McKeon's staff) and agreed Williamson should not be closed.
Everything I've done has been loud and clear and I try and get all the support I can to show we are a united front.
All the information is out there for those that are willing to take the time to research but, get ready to spend a lot of you time doing this.
If you think I'm in the way and you'd like to take over, I'll send you transcripts of my files. There are a few boxes so can we split the shipping costs?
Edit: If ANF re-issues the closure on 12/31/12 (it will), I am scheduling another meeting at McKeon's office with his staff, the USFS, AF, FWS and FoWR (if they want to attend).
Any support I can get here is appreciated.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Even though there may not be any signs isn't there that old "ignorance of
the law" thing they could still string you up on?
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Yes, any judge will tell you , ignorance of the law is not a defense.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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From what I hear, Troy has lost interest. Not sure he even climbs much anymore. I know he is into mountain biking now.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Not suprising.
The bigger issue here is how an organized group manipulated the system and obtained their objective of closing public land.
This is wrong, and it is the reason I continue to fight.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Any support I can get here is appreciated.
What kind of support do you need / want?
If you need people count me in - I promise not to be a jerk..;-)
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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I'll shoot you an email this week on how you can help.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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This is a picture my brother took of my dad, the one in the background bouldering and myself holstering my dads old Stubai hammer. I was 14 at the time that picture was taken, now 46, and my dad has been climbing at Williamson since the 1960's. I grew up climbing at Williamson Rock and knew it only as Eagles Roost until the first guide was published. I put up routes on lead with that hammer before I learned to drive. Most of the climbing I did was on the main face above the Voices Wall and and Freezer Burn Wall and some exploring on the Sick Wall which we accessed by climbing that rotten crack to the right, I considered the crack as a legit climb in and of itself at the time and still do. Once I started driving I headed up there every weekend dragging unsuspecting friends and cross country teammates and anyone else who would hold a rope for me. In the early 90's I got caught up in the rap bolting deal and put my first Bosch powered route in on the left side of the Generation Wall. After meeting Troy at a climbing comp at Sport Chalet we started heading up 3-4 days a week putting up routes and never seeing a sole for about a year. Things changed fast after that first year climbing with Troy and after the first guidebook was published climbing alone at Williamson was a thing of the past except for a rare quiet weekday. I slowly stopped climbing as I started to immerse myself in kayaking local creeks in the So Cal area to the point of obsession in floating any creek that I could find including the creek that flows at the base of Williamson and Arroyo Secco from below Red Box down to the JPL parking lot. After years of kayaking I slowly started to get back into climbing just as my wife and I had our first child. As a side note, the route Wedding March was put up with my wife just before we were married. After having our first kid I became excited to share the area with my son just as my dad had shared the area with me. Well shortly after he was born the area was closed and the rest is history. To say I am upset about the closure is a severe understatement but i still hold out hope that someday it might open again. Until then I will share my passion with my son and daughter elsewhere.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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This issue highlights an important set of looming problems for the climbing community.
The endangered species act, and others like it, attempt to act in favor of a species which is at risk of becoming extinct by preserving the environment that supports them. It usually affects a larger area because the natural history of frogs is not completely understood. It does no good to preserve just the frog ponds, the frogs use areas around the pond, and the species that they prey on probably occupy a larger area than just the ponds.
The fact is we don't know just how much area is required to support that species.
Now if we think of climbing as an act of taking that away from the frog, even indirectly, and cause the extinction of that species then we've done something irreversible; the frog is no more.
I presume that the reason climbers would provide for doing this would be an exercise in our notional right to climb anywhere we want to without regard to the consequences of our actions. I'm sure there are environmentalists out there who view the fanaticism of climbers in the same negative light that some of the climbers view the environmentalists.
The issues at Williamson Rock are well publicized because it is a "traditional" climbing area near a huge population center. The number of people, and thus the impact, of climbing at Williamson Rock has skyrocketed (as it has in other areas) with the increase in population and the popularity of climbing.
I'd suggest that we have to take a much more sophisticated view of our use of public land, and especially the consequences of that use. And realize that we may be "taking" something in our pursuit of climbing that cannot be returned. I face this conundrum putting up routes in Yosemite Valley, are those routes really worth the destruction of vegetation and the denial of habitat that they represent?
The ecologies of cliffs is not a well developed science. Because of their inaccessibility, they often represent a refuge for plants and animals who have been excluded from other developed areas. Climbing represents the further encroachment of those developments into what is often the last refuge for these species. Climbers who venture there could be a tremendous help to studying those refuges, but there are no strong collaborations that I know of. Largely this is because of fear among climbers that it will bring restrictions to climbing, and a view from the ecologists that climbers are carelessly pursuing their sport for selfish motives and aren't interested in the restricting their climbing.
Understanding what it is we are doing in these environments is important and won't happen without such a collaboration. Working together would strengthen both the access and the understanding of closures and get the two communities together rather than remaining separate in two immiscible advocacy groups.
And it would help climbers "do the right thing" with regard to understanding their impact and the consequences of that impact. Putting up a route, using an area, can be far more consequential than we have traditionally thought. We should understand that.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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The fact is we don't know just how much area is required to support that species.
I'm no frog expert but I've seen a lot of 'em and never very far from water.
As for how wide an area around the water is important to their well being
common sense would suggest not very. If climbers crossed the creek at a
designated spot and stayed away from the creek elsewhere it certainly seems
like a reasonable assumption that the little dears would not be unduly
inconvenienced. I think the real issue here is rather the intransigent
bureaucracy which always looks to propagate itself.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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PUD.... thanks for your considerable efforts.
Let’s face it, FoW is done as a organization, the ACCESS FUND is worried about stuff in Colorado mostly and has not represented US at all.
We do not have a bulldog lawyer, nor can we afford one because we don’t have an organization to funnel the funds to one.
I know what I’m going to say (write) may ruffle some feathers but I’ll say it anyway;
What if we got like 100 people to go climbing down there, let the NFS know we are going to do it and get arrested!
Do the whole 60’s thing; make it hard for them to enforce the unjust law.
Stay away from the Frogs habitat, easy to do, and just start climbing.
Make it cost $$$$ to enforce the ban.
Heck, our government is starting to look the other way regarding what laws it will and will not enforce maybe a cash strapped NFS, ANF, LA County Sheriff dept will just say F-ck it.
Maybe they will maybe they won’t.
I think the fact that Climbers just rolled over in the first place set a bad precedent.
Guy Keesee
EDIT: ED very well thought out, reasoned argument. It seems to me that very little reasoned thought went into the closure.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Ed have you ever climbed at Williamson or anywhere else in the San Gabriels?
Mt Williamson is a tiny speck, near the road, along a crest which is more than 30 miles long. This crest is surrounded by the rest of the range which extends from interstate 5 on the west to interstate 15 on the east, a distance of over 70 miles, and is traversed by two roads and a few trails.
John Muir himself, a man who knew a thing or two about mountains, pronounced the San Gabriels to be "the most impenetrable range I have seen."
In these rugged mountains, if there is not a trail, or for Batrock a sufficient flow, you are not getting anywhere. Simply put it is a safe bet that well over 99% of this terrain has never and never will be set foot upon by a human.
The reason the frogs have been found at Williamson is not because this area is a unique habitat, it is because it is right next to the road.
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Tfish
Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
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I like your plan Guy!
I think you should also add some stuff too. Like take down supplies to build a fence to block off the area of the frogs, mark the trails real good so no one goes near the frogs, and weren't they talking about building a bridge or something? Maybe get a wag bag dispenser and some small garbage bags so there's no excuse for people to trash the area too. Basicly just show them that we can climb and the frogs will be ok.
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Tfish
Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
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The frogs are all over the so cal mountains. If they really wanted to protect this frog they'd post signs and pictures of the warning people not to touch them or take them. Similar to the warning you're in bear country signs posted.
I really think the forest service used the frogs as an excuse to close the area because people were trashing it. I remember I saw a bunch of posts on RC.com about people warning others to pick up their trash and then like a year later they closed it.
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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I think that violating the temporary closure that is in place right now, or any future closure, will only hurt our access efforts. As I said before, ACSD is actively working on this, and climbers should refrain refrain from hurting relations with the land managers. We have a lot of hope that there will be a resolution that benefits both climbers and the frogs. I've contacted those among the ACSD crowd who are working on this, and I hope to be able to post a very informative update in the near future.
Josh
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Williamson has been under a “temporary” closure that has been annually renewed since December 2005 due to the endangered Mountain Yellow Legged Frog (MYLF). The Center for Biological Diversity sued US Fish & Wildlife (FWS) and the National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS) because the agencies’ 2005 Biological Opinions (BioOps) regarding four different National Forest Plans in Southern California (including the Angeles National Forest/Williamson Rock) failed to issue Incidental Take Statements for the MYLF. The Access Fund, Friends of Williamson, and local climbers immediately started working with the Forest Service to re-open Williamson.
In September 2009, the Forest Service proposed a Plan that would have re-opened Williamson to climbing with restrictions meant to protect the critical habitat of the MYLF. Unfortunately, in late August 2009, the Station Fire started and ended up burning much of the Angeles National Forest. The Forest Service decided that given the loss of other MYLF habitat in the Station Fire, Williamson could not be re-opened as proposed.
As part of the on-going lawsuit by the Center for Biodiversity, the Court issued an injunctive Order on June 27, 2011, that required the FWS and NMFS to answer questions posed by the Court, amend the 2005 BioOps, and judicially closed Williamson Rock area until the amended Biological Survey was completed (there was a 6 month deadline from the date of the Order and then 60 days to implement the decision).
On October 19, 2011, due in large part to the Court’s June 27, 2011 Order, Angeles National Forest Supervisor (Thomas A. Contreras) published a Decision Notice instituting a 3-year administrative closure of the Williamson Rock vicinity to protect MYLF habitat. Allied Climbers of San Diego, a local climbing organization and joint member of the Access Fund, administratively appealed the 3-year closure.
On January 26, 2012 and prior to the appeal being decided, the Angeles Forest Supervisor withdrew his decision to close Williamson for 3 years. Thus, ACSD’s appeal was dismissed as moot. However, the one-year temporary Forest closure order based on the Court’s June 27, 2011 remains in effect until December 31, 2012.
The Forest Service requested and received an extension to complete the BioOps and associated land management plan. Thus, the temporary closure will likely get renewed again at the end of December 2012. The Access Fund is working with the Allied Climbers of San Diego to get Williamson re-opened. The Williamson closure is extremely frustrating and moving slower than normal because of the federal district court’s involvement. Unfortunately, there is no quick solution, but we are continuing to work on getting Williamson re-opened.
Please feel free to contact the Access Fund at info@accessfund.org with questions.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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The reason the frogs have been found at Williamson is not because this area is a unique habitat, it is because it is right next to the road.
Exactly!
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Frogs at Williamson; Peregrines at Summit Rock. Both just pretexts for keeping people out of an area. At Williamson, there's the Center for Biological Diversity; at Summit there's the mysterious Friends of Castle Rock organization (has this now morphed into the Portola Valley and Castle Rock Forum?). Similar lawsuits to limit nearby urban populations from using nearby recreational areas.
Do I detect a larger pattern here?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Ed have you ever climbed at Williamson or anywhere else in the San Gabriels?
I have not climbed at Williamson but I spent my 10-18 years living in Claremont, CA right under the San Garbriels and spent much of that time walking up into those "impenetrable" mountains from my house.
Those were the years 1964-1972. They were years of tremendous change for that part of the San Gabriel Valley. I moved away, and then away from California in 1976 and returned in 1995. In that time the population of the state tripled, and the development boomed.
The whole of SoCal has changed greatly since the 1960s of my youth. And climbing has changed also, especially in terms of the numbers of people doing it. While it may be possible that there are many "unknown" frog habitats in the Angeles National Forest, it is also possible that there are not. And given the limits of the local, state and federal resources devoted to environmental research of the kind that would result in the discovery of additional habitats, it is fairly clear that such habitats are not going to be found anytime soon.
However, this is where we, climbers as interested hikers, could come in, don't you think? We do go to those "impenetrable" places. With some education we might do informal, exploratory surveys of frog habitat. And were the climbing community able to demonstrate your assertion that there are many frog habitats and that the one at Williamson is not unique, perhaps you could have a good effect on the outcome of climbing access.
Were you to find only one or two other sites which were confirmed by wildlife biologists, you may make a stronger case for closure.
The point is, climbers could have some effect on the outcome. They would require more education and work in collaboration with the wildlife biologists of the agencies involved in making the decisions.
I believe that such collaborations would build a positive relationship, but the outcomes may not be what is desired by either of the two participants, that is, sometimes the climbers would aid in work that results in closures, sometimes the biologists would aid in work that resulted in opening up an area... but in either of these cases, both parties had participated in managing a common resource in a rational manner and avoid using the legal system to adjudicate our differences.
Climbers are already concerned that the executive branch of government is involved in their climbing decisions, why would they invite the judicial branch to be involved too?
Cooperation and collaboration is a much better way to go, in my opinion.
As for frogs and ponds, I believe that the frogs range much farther from the ponds than you might observe in the limited times you spy them. Further, the health of the ecosystem of the pond involves an area much much larger than just the pond.
This is part of the issue that climbers could educated themselves on so that they don't sound like fools in front of the biologists and ecologists who are working these particular issues. Further, the climbers would also learn how much is not known. Lack of understanding increases the tendency to make conservative decisions in the issues of species extinction, favoring broad restrictions because of unknown consequences affecting that habitat.
I don't see how bringing in "bull lawyers" fixes the root cause of the problem. It might get you limited access to an area like Williamson Rock, but were the frogs to become extinct in that habitat it would be natural to lay it on the lack of restriction, and that would increase the restrictions elsewhere, not decrease them.
And looking at the bigger picture, is climbing at Williamson Rock right now worth the possible consequence of local species extinction and additional restrictions elsewhere? I don't think that any of you have made a case in this public forum that justifies it.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Ed, I thought it was pretty much determined that the die off was due to other frog species carrying a bacteria that was killing the MYLF, nothing to do with climbers impact. Speaking from personal experience the MYLF population in the area below the closure is thriving, not sure about the area immediately surrounding Williamson. Another area of large population of the MYLF is the Sanger Meadow area near Coyote Flat. Last year the stream in the meadow and as it dropped down toward Big Pine was crawling with MYLF's. Obviously these are just two areas but two areas none the less where the population seems to be thriving. The Sanger population specifically was quite impressive.
If giving up the climbing on the London Wall and Stream Wall were to occur, there would be virtually zero impact on the stream and it's inhabitants. A well thought out climbers trail would eliminate any intrusion into the MYLF home. I have fired off a few emails to the frog people at the Center for Biodiversity about getting together to try and work something out that would make both parties happy, not to mention the frogs, but I am not holding my breath that I will be hearing from them anytime soon.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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It's my understanding that the forest service only closed the area under pressure from the FWS. They did that because that is in their jurisdiction, not because they necessarily agree with it.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I thought it was pretty much determined that the die off was due to other frog species carrying a bacteria that was killing the MYLF
Frogs have been threatened by fungus (I believe) that is brought into the water shed area by humans who have visited other riparian zones where the fungus is found (the fungus is exotic if I recall correctly). Largely this is a problem with wading anglers who may not decontaminate there boots and other gear and travel from stream to stream. Biologists who go in with waders are now very conscious of the threat and do decontaminate their gear so as not to be a part of the problem.
I don't know the specifics of you MYLF population. And the specifics I do know are based on conversations with ecologists, it's not an area of my expertise. However, it does highlight the effects that humans have which are consequential, though extremely difficult to untangle, this one took a long time to figure out.
If you take a lesson from this, it is hard to argue for allowing access. That is, in the history of fishing in the mountains of California, anglers have used boots and waders for a long time. They frequented many mountain streams, and the frogs didn't have a problem. At some point the frogs start dying off, how could it be caused by an activity that has been around a long time?
The fungus spread like an infectious disease (it is a disease to the frogs) as an epidemic would, from a single starting location. The carriers were the humans that frequented those spots, and carried the infecting fungus on their boots, waders, boats, etc... this wasn't appreciated because it hadn't happened before.
This resulted in the large frog die-off, maybe amphibians in general. The climbers likely did not cause this problem, and maybe the management of the Williamson Rock area could avoid such a thing happening, climbers aren't going there to fish and probably wouldn't be a risk for infecting that watershed...
...but you could ask the question: what else could happen? And while that can't be answered, the main issue is the impact that humans have going into these habitats is real, and can result in the demise of the habitat and species in that habitat. To avoid that, caution would dictate that restricting human access is a good way to prevent such inadvertent problems.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Ed,
My fear is where does it end? Arguably climbing has had a much more damaging effect in Yosemite Valley on many levels, climbers trails, erosion, trash, birds of prey nesting etc... The list goes on and on and on and can be applied to ANY climbing area in the nation. So, do we just put a blanket ban on outdoor activities because we aren't sure what the impact might be? I realize I have skin in this particular game because it's right in my back yard and I have a long history with the area but I see the same answer over and over again in land management and that is it's just easier to close it and say it's best for species XY&Z. Wild lands and access to wild lands is becoming more and more limited, especially in California. Areas I have frequented for decades in the Saline Valley Death Valley area are now closed with little or no explanation from land managers. Many areas around Bishop, specifically the Coyote Flat Sanger Meadow area now sport huge road blocks and no camping signs. It's been more than a little frustrating to watch happen. It's like the frog in the kettle story, no pun intended, before you know it little by little it's gone and we are left wondering what the heck happened?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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My fear is where does it end? Arguably climbing has had a much more damaging effect in Yosemite Valley on many levels, climbers trails, erosion, trash, birds of prey nesting etc...
I fear that too, at some level, but fear isn't a good emotion to base action on (though it is often the emotion that leads to action).
Yosemite Valley is restricting access, and I believe that the reasons are well known, and certainly one can ask and receive an answer. As I mentioned above, the cliff ecologies are not studied extensively if at all, and much is unknown. So we don't have an idea whether or not we're causing a problem.
Climber impacts start with access to the base of the cliffs and off the tops of the cliff, at the Yosemite Facelift this year there were several trail building projects for climber access, this is one way to provide access that reduces climber impact. How many "braided use trails" are there out there and do they really need to be use trails?
The biologists working in these areas can't be everywhere doing everything. Climbers frequent areas and, if they are aware, can have conversations with the biologists about what they see. These encounters seem to be limited to husband/wife pairs where one climbs and one biologizes... though there are biologists that are climbers. It's not just biologists, though, but a combination of biological specialities including ecology that are required, a team.
It would be wonderful to have a study of the cliff ecologies of Yosemite, to my knowledge no such formal study exists. There was an initial attempt to do this at JT, the results found a mixed reception in the climbing community (as seen in another thread).
But trying to figure out how to be a part of understanding what climbers do to these habitats is something you'd think the climber community would want to be a part of, we do love these places, why doesn't that carry over to trying to understand how best to manage them?
And, climbers are unique in the fact that they spend a lot of time in those cliff habitats. They are observers to places few have been, being an informed observer and communicating those observations would be a good thing.
As an aside, my wife was involved in preservation issues at Pinnacles, the question was what to do about climber impact and many of the participants (none of them climbers) had misconceptions about climbing and climbing routes. So I got the question later that day and was able to shed a bit of light on climber usage. That was a fortuitous encounter... climbers don't publish scholarly articles on route development, etc.. so how would anyone know just what it is we do?
My take is that these encounters should be a lot less fortuitous, for that to happen there has to be an atmosphere of openness and trust among the participants, and a feeling that all sides of the collaboration bring something to the table that helps to obtain the desired outcomes.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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This order was enacted by judge Patel.
It is law. The FWS, USFS, or ANF no longer have jurisdiction over the Williamson Rock closure. It was ordered by the court and until that order is challenged and overturned or rescinded no one can re-open Williamsom.
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/programs/public_lands/forests/southern_california_forests/pdfs/06-28-11_Order.pdf
I completely disagree with Ed's logic.
Many of the facts he refers to support this argument are untrue. ie: humans carrying the Chytrid fungus from other reptiles causing the Yellow Legged Mountain frog to become infected is undeniably false.
It is this type of misinformation that clouds the real issue and makes it difficult to get real and true information to the people making the decisions that affect us all.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Jan 27, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
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Mushroom rock was where i first onsighted a 5.11 in 1995.
bring me back to whilliamson.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Feb 20, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
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Climbing the upper wall at Williamson with some teammates from the cross country team, high school 1984. This was pre Bosch era, I remember surmounting the final little head wall and it being protected with a pin and a few star bolts. Those were fun days.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 22, 2013 - 11:35am PT
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Here's the culprit that climbers are being scapegoated for...yup, another illegal immigrant.
Invasive frogs carry amphibian-killing fungus
A study links African clawed frogs, which were brought to California decades ago for use in pregnancy tests, with a deadly pathogen.
By Geoffrey Mohan, Los Angeles Times
May 19, 2013, 9:56 p.m.
African clawed frogs were first brought to California decades ago to help doctors figure out whether their patients were pregnant. After new technology made those pregnancy tests obsolete, the creatures were let loose, and thrived for decades in the state's drainage ditches and ponds.
Now there are signs that the proliferation of African clawed frogs may be putting native species in peril. A study published last week in the journal PLOS ONE reveals that they carry a deadly fungus responsible for wiping out vast numbers of amphibians around the world.
The spread of the deadly Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis fungus is contributing to one of the greatest disease-caused losses of biodiversity in recorded history. The fungus causes amphibians' skin to harden, interfering with the regulation of electrolytes and eventually causing cardiac arrest.
Entire species of amphibians, which are among the oldest vertebrates on Earth, have been driven to extinction since the fungus first was described in 1999.
"This pathogen is like no other pathogen we have seen," said Vance Vredenburg, a biologist at San Francisco State University who led the new study.
African clawed frogs don't appear to succumb to the fungus' deadly effects. But its presence in a hardy and thriving population that is difficult to control has raised alarm among conservationists.
Native to an arid region of South Africa, the Xenopus laevis species is extremely hardy. The frogs can adapt to cold and drought and can survive for several years burrowed in mud. Efforts to eradicate them here and elsewhere have proved fruitless.
"Once they're established in the wild they're very difficult to eradicate," said Stanford University veterinarian Sherril Green. "I don't know of any place in the world where they have been introduced that has had success in eradicating them."
The fungus has been circulating among African clawed frogs for some time — a sample from 1938, from Africa, tested positive for it. But the fungus had never been detected in California's population. The researchers found signs of it in specimens preserved in a Stanford collection at the California Academy of Sciences in San Francisco's Golden Gate Park. The frogs had been caught in 2001 and 2003, in San Diego and San Francisco counties.
Scientists can't be certain that the African frogs of California are responsible for spreading the fungus to native species, such as the mountain yellow-legged frog. The American bullfrog, a non-native species introduced here during the Gold Rush, also is a known carrier of the fungus. Which species infected the others remains unresolved.
Still, discovery of the fungus among the African frog population in California "tightens the noose around the idea that humans really are responsible for moving this pathogen around," Vredenburg said.
Because of its biological similarity to humans, the species is important to biologists. The frogs' hormone system is analogous to that of humans, and they ovulate when exposed to urine from a pregnant woman. That made them useful for detecting pregnancies — a practice that became widespread in the 1940s and continued until more sophisticated blood tests were introduced in the 1970s.
That's when many hospitals simply released their frogs.
"We weren't as conservation-aware in those days," Green said.
The mystery of the fungus has vexed biologists, who consider it a potential harbinger of emerging diseases that could affect domesticated species crucial for food, such as cattle and poultry.
"Science thrives on predictability," Vredenburg said. "We have very little predictability in this. In the very same habitat, sharing the same lakes and streams, you have frogs that are surviving. They've been infected and are doing fine. For every rule that we put down we find an exception to it."
Even within the same species, some frog populations appear to survive the fungus, Vredenburg said. A South African researcher found that the fungus was not causing mortality in the wild frogs that carried the pathogen. The fungus and frog populations there could be evolving to adapt, a common evolutionary path for pathogens and their hosts.
The mechanics of such a process could be crucial to solving future pandemics.
"We really need to understand the fundamental biology here," Vredenburg said. "That same biology is occurring in other kinds of pathogens."
geoffrey.mohan@latimes.com
Copyright © 2013, Los Angeles Times
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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May 23, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
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I thought that was a picture of the judge who closed Williamson.
Here is a shot of Williamson taken a few years ago, from the road of course.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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May 25, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
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What????
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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Dec 18, 2013 - 05:17pm PT
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Looks like the FS is finally getting around to moving on this. I just got an email that an environmental scoping is going on until January 24, 2014.
They only want to open it for 3 1/2 months.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Dec 18, 2013 - 05:48pm PT
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.....how about some more information????????
who
what
where
when
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10b4me
Ice climber
Bishop/Flagstaff
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Dec 18, 2013 - 05:59pm PT
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so I saw this on a website. this is the latest forest service proposal.
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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Dec 18, 2013 - 06:20pm PT
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I'm trying to figure out how to post a PDF. Does this screenshot work?
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Dec 18, 2013 - 06:56pm PT
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I still miss that place but if it ever opens part time or full time it'll never be the same experience again.
[shrug]
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Dec 18, 2013 - 08:22pm PT
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1 year minimum before we are allowed back.
The annual closure will be renewed on 01/01/14.
There will be public meetings and input needed from the climbing community in the new year.
The frog population "has exploded" not only at Williamson but throughout the San Gabriels.
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Dec 18, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
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Williansom might re-open!!!
What do you mean, it'll never be the same????
Hell, give me 2 days of climbing there and I'll die a happy woman. I would climb till my fingers fell off and still feel lucky.
The Far Side
Being There
Labyrinth
Valdez
Industrial Disease
Timber
Mushroom Boulder
Shaman
And dozens more...
It won't be the same--it'll be better!
Woohooooooo! Williamson!
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Dec 18, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
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I got my scoping letter too. Oddly, I can't find it on the Angeles Nt'l Forest website to post a link for you.
PM me if you want a copy by email.
It's a great opportunity for input. I plan to propose:
1. Send volunteers in to remove invasive fish etc from all of LIttle Rock Creek drainage.
2. Install and optional "crest-route" version of the PCT that takes the ridge straight over Waterman and skips the canyon.
3. Implement a carry-out waste program and public education.
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john bald
climber
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Dec 18, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
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Last time I climbed there was 1971. Hope to get back someday. Really enjoyed the Angeles Forest.
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Brock
Trad climber
RENO, NV
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Dec 18, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
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I think I did my share of making those frogs rare. I put my hand in a crack/pocket and had frog plasma all over my hand.
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Iron Mtn.
Trad climber
Riverside, Ca.
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Dec 28, 2013 - 07:30pm PT
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Here's my 2 cents that I sent:
Dear Forest Supervisor Thomas A. Contreras,
Upon reading the Forest Service's Proposed Action in regards to access I felt compelled to comment on this.
As a rock climber and avid hiker I find the proposed actions for the most part fair and reasonable, especially the closing of the scree trail as well as certain climbing areas like the Mushroom Boulder, the London Wall and the Stream Wall in order to preserve the protection of the Mountain Yellow Legged Frog. These are small sacrifices that are very important on many levels.
After reading and reviewing the proposal many times I have one concern, the window in which climbers will have access to Williamson Rock. My concern is that with such a short window for climbers it will cause overuse of the area thus defeating the purpose of protecting the Mountain Yellow Legged Frog. While I do not know the scientific evaluations in depth, I would think a partial closure (as suggested in the proposal) of lower areas for certain months and extended access of the upper climbing areas would be a reasonable trade off especially given the fact that there are plenty of routes that would satisfy the demand of the Williamson Rock. Furthermore I would suggest that the impact of foot traffic of the PCT could potentially be just as or more damaging to the habitat due to the sheer volume of hikers accessing the wilderness would be greater than the amount of climbers using Williamson Rock.
I thank you for taking the time to read my concern.
Sincerely Yours
William L Tuck III
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Yafer
Trad climber
Chatsworth, California
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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^^^^And in that chasm is Ridin' The Storm Out, a stellar 2-pitch 10b that I still dream about.
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