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Stew
Trad climber
Colorado
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 22, 2006 - 06:26pm PT
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This is for those climbers who accept Dean Potter's ascent of Delicate Arch. I've been fortunate enough to have climbed and hiked in the canyon country for 37 years and I still do. Dean is a very good friend of mine. We have climbed some good routes together and even climbed in Arches together. I consider him a high quality person and a rad climber and he is for nature. Dean's ascent of Delicate Arch may not have been against the law because of a loophole, but this is not the issue.
Dean broke a trust that we climbers had with the Park Service to not climb the arches. Instead we left them for the ravens. We were allowed to climb the towers, the walls, the boulders, do new routes, and even place bolts with a hand drill if needed. Just stay off the arches! This ascent shows the Park Service that we may need rules on paper in big letters. This is not good.
I've climbed the Three Gossips many times and always seem to have some sort of spiritual experience up there. The Gossips know this...but they're not talking...Jimmie Dunn
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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May 22, 2006 - 06:36pm PT
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I think that your take on this is the best summation yet, Jim.
All the best, Roger
PS: Welcome to ST land.
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Webmonkey
Trad climber
Ca.
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May 22, 2006 - 06:58pm PT
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Blaming Dean Potter for the new regs is like blaming Saddam Hussein for 911.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 22, 2006 - 07:11pm PT
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Hi Jimmy,
like I said EVEN I knew to stay off that one.
When I first showed up in Arches ('76) they had some strange rules which led me to do the Owl as my first route because a rock had fallen from its summit disowning it of a name (which would have put it off limits). All rather capricious and arbitrary.
But the rock of Arches in general is remarkably fragile so if anything shouldn't be messed with (even "soft" rubber) then its something where "delicate" is part of the name.
I have the greatest respect for Dean's climbing ability but this is a brain fart that could end up being very regretable.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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May 22, 2006 - 09:43pm PT
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Blaming Dean Potter for the new regs is like blaming Saddam Hussein for 911.
i take it you voted for bush?
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 22, 2006 - 09:50pm PT
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There's always going to be people who put restrictions on us--that's what "authorities" do. It's always a tighrope act in trying to get away with as much as possible without having the authorities feel as though their hegemony is being usurped and then start shutting down entire areas. That's what I see Jimmy bringing to our attention--a case where a guy probably went too far. I personally don't hae a problem with Dean climbing the Arch, had he kept it a secret only to himself. No harm, no foul. But plastering the ascent all over the web is tantamount to flipping off the rangers and I'd bet if Dean (who I respect a lot) were to have it to do all over again, he'd still solo the arch but wouldn't tell anyone.
JL
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WBraun
climber
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May 22, 2006 - 10:19pm PT
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Thanks Jimmy Dunn for your thoughts .....
We are the architects of our own destiny. What we do will also affect others no matter how small.
Authorities actions are a direct reflection of our collective actions.
Conscious thinking is paramount to good social skills. (Not that I have any)
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MikeL
climber
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May 22, 2006 - 11:32pm PT
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When Dean Potter said, (ala Malabarista’s article): "I did no more than blow a little dust off a few handholds,” he’s playing to the press—and poorly.
Who today here doesn’t know that we live in a world of perceptions, spin, marketing, and promotion? It’s not what really happened; it’s what people make of it. A sport and its celebrities almost fully overlap in adventure sports, and every athlete should be aware that his or her career relies upon the perceived value and integrity their personal branding.
Dean and Patagonia have had big lapses in judgment, and those have now turning into mutual escalations of commitment. Patagonia and Dean were either ignorant, stupid, or they are pulling our collective legs. “But I didn’t do anything wrong” is naďve and disingenuous. Like some companies recently, they feel they have to deny the foolishness of their actions; but the more they do, the worse it gets for them.
Dean and Patagonia could take a cue from those few smart companies that stepped on their d*cks, admitted it, and fixed their problems as quickly and fully as they could.
In the world of business, when you screw up, even when it isn’t really your fault, say it is, do something significant to placate those offended, and get the hell out of the limelight. Werner said, “conscious thinking is paramount to good social skills.” I’d change “conscious” to “conscientious.”
-MikeL
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 22, 2006 - 11:43pm PT
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Slapping a little boycott on Pattagucci would do more to make the point than anything else.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 23, 2006 - 12:03am PT
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Before talking boycott let's see what shakes out from this. Besides, did they know before or after? It doesn't sound as though they've provided a ringing endorsement of Potter's choices but rather of his skill (and justifiably so).
I for one am not all that sure that today's climbers are willing to place preservation before their own ambitions and it might just turn out that a ban today preserves the resource for a generation that might treat it with greater reverence. I've long thought that the fragile climbs of the desert are like a canary in a coal mine that will serve as a warning of the greater destruction of what we climb.
But the canary must die to provide that warning.
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jeff benowitz
climber
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May 23, 2006 - 12:03am PT
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the ultimate solo is the one you don't tell anyone about.
all else is an ego trip or a poorly thought out business plan.
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10b4me
Ice climber
The Happies
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May 23, 2006 - 12:34am PT
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Slapping a little boycott on Pattagucci would do more to make the point than anything else.
think you are preaching to the wrong crowd. I'd bet most purveyors of Patagonia products are not supertopians, but rather
SUV drivin' yuppies.
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WBraun
climber
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May 23, 2006 - 12:37am PT
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jeff benowitz
You really believe that YOU are on an ego trip and have poorly thought buisness plans?
What do you really know about the Ultimate?
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Professor Fate
Big Wall climber
Vulgaria
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May 23, 2006 - 07:27am PT
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If a tree falls in a forrest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?
Humility is the worst form of conceit.
If human beings do not share their lives and what they do, they are meaningless.
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MikeL
climber
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May 23, 2006 - 10:41am PT
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Banal.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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May 23, 2006 - 11:01am PT
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You guys just keep following the rules set by the man!! Very sad.Dean, the solo was great,you should have kept it to yourself.The man is involved now, & as you can see above most people are programmed by him.rg
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 23, 2006 - 11:49am PT
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"If human beings do not share their lives and what they do, they are meaningless."
And here lies the core of co-dependency.
Sharing your life is crucial, but not the end-all.
JL
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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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May 23, 2006 - 01:02pm PT
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a conversation I overheard once in Boulder on Pearl Street...
dude: so how's camping with the homeless up there on the hill?
hippie: i'm not working for the man.
dude: the man?
hippie: you know, THE MAN
dude: what man?
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todd-gordon
climber
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May 23, 2006 - 04:26pm PT
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Jimmie Dunn is THE MAN......just remember, I understand he has an infant child at home now......he's looking at life differently now, probably not getting enough sleep, late 50's now, change of life...not climbing as much as he used to spending time with the wee one.....(sounds like somebody ELSE I know...)..........all influences on his perception of climbing and the world..........(Don't mean sheeeet, does it?)....I personally look at life and climbing differently now that I'm a dad......(So I guess Dean's only hope is that he and Steph start pile driving tonight so THEY can have a child too!)......AND....AND... I'm sure their kids will be so awesome and cute..... Patagonia KIDS catalogue.....(Problem solved.....).....The Park Service, being pro-family ....will back off.....they can't get much support on kicking around a new Mom and Dad..............That was EASY!!!
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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May 23, 2006 - 04:29pm PT
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todd, proves what I always thought. Sex is a cure all!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 27, 2006 - 10:39pm PT
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Dean is an amazing guy and there is much to admire about him.
Still, all humans, even our climbing heros, have blind spots and faults that allow us to make mistakes. I sure do.
I tend to believe Dean's ill feelings from some bad NPS encounters have tainted his vision in this case on how to be an "ambassador" of the sport wisely.
The fact that the ascent was photographed, taped and published shows that his public persona was part of this ascent, not just the private renegade visionary.
It seems that taunting the NPS was part of his vision. That's like pissing in the wind. You come out smelling badly.
Doesn't mean he's a bad guy. But I do think he made a bad call in this case.
Good could still come of it, particularly if Patagonia and the Access Fund (maybe even with Dean) took the opportunity to educate and communicate with NPS and the public about what should and shouldn't be kosher in the parks and establishing lines of communication to hash out issues before they become regulations.
Peace
Karl
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PDHMAN
Trad climber
Eastside N of Bishop just S of 395
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May 27, 2006 - 11:38pm PT
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"The responsibility for solving or preventing access problems likewise rests with each and every climber. Minimizing environmental impact and being sensitive to behavior which could affect access, will help prevent problems." John Long, p.151 "How to Rock Climb" 1st ed.
Hmmmm, sounds like a practical philosophy to me. Why then do many still display empathy for DP and his greatness, when his behavior has in fact created access problems that will and do impact us all with goals in Arches? There is a saying we had in the Navy, "One OH SH#T, erases all the attaboys that one has acquired throughout their career, and is destined to be all that one is remembered for."
I don't care if it was Jesus Christ himself, what DP did was WRONG, plain and simple. Quit sugar coating it and making excuses for what he did, regardless of who he is and what he has accomplished. It's called integrity and respect for others! This was his primary negative action, "Fu*k you all, I am going to do it regardless..."
Thanks Dean Potter for Fu*cking away the plans and goals of many of us, all for your selfish desires! What a stand up guy though, huh? Hell, just give him a weapon so he can terminate all the NPS Rangers, it's o.k. He's Dean Potter for God's sake. He's allowed to make mistakes regarless of how the outcome will impact the rest of us. Only in America. His actions are worse than Saddam's, they equate to those of George Bush. "F*ck you, I will do it anyway regardless of what you all think! I'm Dean Potter". Thanks to you DP, I can't finish my two projects here...
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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May 28, 2006 - 12:13pm PT
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You go PDH!
I am amazed how many people can fit up Dean's ass. You all talk about his climbing ability as some sort of excuse for being an azzwhole. I know Dean pesonally, and I DON'T respect him.
He's just another delusional drug addict, with a superiority complex. How well does that fit a sponsored "ambassador"?
Personally, I am going all the way. I have written several letters urging the government to ban him for life from all National Parks, monuments, and federal fee areas, as I believe he is the single biggest threat to the sport of climbing, and to the future enjoyment of the Natural Resources protected by the NPS. He's already killed slacklining.
All that Energy, Nature, and Raven BS, doesn't mean spit comming from a paid corporate shill.
This isn't new behavior. Way back in the twentieth century Dean cut down a tree in Yosemite because it was growing next to a super obscure boulder problem most people couldn't find with a GPS unit.
Let's see how Patagonia does over the next year, and if they attribute falling sales to Dean's antics. These decisions are based on numbers, not personal connections. No worries, there are lots of jobs for unskilled, inexperienced people who test positive for cannabis, and have a history of infamy.
And the arguement that the climb wasn't illegal is pathetically stupid. I've been there, and done many routes in Arches, to think you could legally climb DA, or any other arch for that matter is preposterous.
So how long do we have to wait for a Tammy Knight cartoon of all this...
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BrentA
Gym climber
estes park
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May 28, 2006 - 12:56pm PT
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bout time this started coming out.
Who cares if he climbed it. How gay (sorry to the gay boyz) is it to videotape this?
He's too tall to set the bar this low. I can't believe Patagucci stands behind him so stalwartly.
Fringe area of law my azz...
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lcoyne
Big Wall climber
Byron Bay, Australia
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May 28, 2006 - 01:04pm PT
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Arches NP has recently put into place a climbing management plan similar to, and based on, the CMP for Canyonlands. This was done as an immediate and interim measure pending development of a final CMP for this park. This plan was put into place as a result of the recent fiasco.
This plan will be open for public comment and feedback, so now is the time. In reviewing the plan (available on Arches web site) from a climbing perpsective I find the most (possibly only) egregious action to be the banning of fixed anchors (pins, bolts, hammers).
I would encourage anyone concernend with climbing in ANY US national park to provide feedback to Laura Joss, the Superintendent for Arches. The reprecussions of "the fiasco" will not be limited to Arches.
In particular, I would suggest you encourage Superintendent Joss to review the climbing management plan for the Black Canyon which I believe is a good model for Arches to follow. You can find this plan on the Black's web site.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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May 28, 2006 - 02:09pm PT
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Isn't it a banning of, New, fixed anchors?
Will check out the Black plan when I get back from climbing.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 28, 2006 - 02:19pm PT
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I won't be buying anything from Pattagucci, called em up and told em so.
Potter is a mirror of a certain sort of climber though-- there is a large group that will just do whatever they want, regardless of the consequences.
IT's not pretty, it causes a lot of problems, but it comes with the package, unfortuantely.
Not sure how you can get any segment of society to behave unless they want to.
laws are for after the damage is done, or for people who don't break em anyway, really.
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
Tahoe
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May 28, 2006 - 08:08pm PT
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While I don't agree with behavior (illiegal or not) that endangers access for the rest of us, I don't see what Patagonia has to do with it.
They didn't send him to the arch.
They probably didn't even know about it beforehand.
And they certainly haven't backed him up on it, while not getting on to him, either.
They took a neutral stance, which is appropriate, because it wasn't illegal, and the action didn't use up or damage natural resources.
Most importantly, they still make some of the best gear available. Do you really think it will make a difference not buying a capilene shirt?
Get real.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 28, 2006 - 08:18pm PT
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Yes, it will make a difference if enough people tell them they will not buy and stand by that.
The religious right has scared the crap out of businesses with even the threat of boycotts.
YOU need to understand what real is before you tell people to get some.
YOur claims about damage are debatable.
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PDHMAN
Trad climber
Eastside N of Bishop just S of 395
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May 28, 2006 - 09:13pm PT
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I just wish that some of the "Big Boys and Girls" would stand up for what is Right!!!!! Quit stroking an individual, DP, that deliberately goes out and does something that negatively impacts the masses. I hate the "Good Old Boy" syndrome. It sucks and is wrong! DP Fu*ked UP folks and many of us will be paying for it far greater than DP ever will!!!! Let's go all you Top Liner's, Stand Up for what is right and please start Walking the Talk and not just Talking the Talk. At least Jimmie Dunn has the balls too...do some of the rest of you????
Again, page 151, John Long's "How to Climb", 1st ed, ahhh????????
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
Tahoe
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May 28, 2006 - 09:21pm PT
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dirtyboy:
Please.
I remember the last time the religious right tried to scare Patagonia into doing something. Do some research and see how well that worked. That cause was just as ridiculous.
Have a great day.
-Aaron
edit: And why is it that in every thread, if someone were to make a prediction of the most ridiculous, knee-jerk, uneducated response that anyone could make, YOU come along and say just what was predicted?
You're a laugh, buddy.
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WBraun
climber
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May 28, 2006 - 09:25pm PT
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PDHMAN
Potter already knows he's toast, inside he knows. The heavy vibes he feels from the climbing community is already affecting his psych.
Ever read "Crime and Punishment".
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PDHMAN
Trad climber
Eastside N of Bishop just S of 395
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May 28, 2006 - 09:51pm PT
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It is really getting old to find a quiet area that affords great oppurtunities for us that abide by the rules and enjoy the challenges of putting up quality routes, quietly and with permission, that work up a good rep with the Landowner or Caretaker's of that area in order to play and have fun. Then some selfish, ego tripper, that has established themselves in all the Mags and in the Big Shot coot show, comes along and fu*ks away the previalges for some of us that have played by the rules! This isn't the first time that this has occurred. This same thing occurred nine years ago at Glenn Canyon Natl Mon when you know who BASED illegally, busted his ass and the SAR that ensued to save his selfish ass brought a really bad mark on many projects that I had on tap for Lake Powell. The area was shut down for four years to all climbing until further research was done by the Monument Super's for some sort of protocol for allowing any climbing in the region, to be drawn up and implemented. Come on folks, this sheet needs to come to an end. By some of the Major well known players stepping up to the plate and publicly denouncing this type of behavior and letting the culprits know that their actions are and will no be tolerated.
"What is right is right and what is wrong is wrong. There is no in between. That is the law of the land. May the bearer of either be held accountable for either action. Regardless of whom they may be."
Abraham Lincoln
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 28, 2006 - 10:17pm PT
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Tahoe climber says: Boycotts don't work!!
Right. Moron.
I still don't know how you get your shoes on. Does someone help you?
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Loom
climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
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May 28, 2006 - 10:17pm PT
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Ad hominem attacks can be a fun way to let off steam, but they don’t substantively move the debate forward.
Dean was videotaped and Dean is sponsored. Whatever your feelings are about these things, they are side issues. I think sponsorship sucks; it is part of what is leading to the Disneyfication of climbing, but this is not relevant to this issue.
Aren’t some of you really saying that Dean’s selfish action may prevent your selfish actions? And you want to use the strategies of the religious wrong to make things right? Maybe we could all call in our suggestions to the sponsors of our favorite sponsored climber, so we can force them to climb what we want them to climb. We can send Dean back to the real Patagonia!
Some think he is a selfish sell-out; a hypocrite. I haven't seen Dean for a while, but I've known him to be a person who staunchly defends everyone's right to be out on the stone whether they are bumbling n00bs, or Chongo working a multi-year project. (I’m less tolerant.) Whatever his motivation was and what kind of person he is--I don't know--but again I think this is something that is not relevant.
What is relevant?
Has Dean directly harmed you in any way?
Is there any evidence that he physically harmed Delicate Arch?
So what we're really b!tching about is the park service's reaction to Deans climb. Do you think that banning new fixed anchors was a reasonable response? What if they banned all climbing; reasonable? Dean's fault?
Preserve and protect from what? Preserve and protect for whom?
I see a bunch of Thebans bowing and scraping before Creon. If it's against the law it must be wrong???
It is ironic that Dean is compared to Bush, when to my mind many of you are acting like the mindless GOP cattle that hew to whatever line RoBuChensfeld lays down. Why not write a letter deploring the NPS over-reaction? Or just go place your fixed anchors anyway, but get ready, because when the NPS bans all climbing in response you’ll be our next whipping boy.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 28, 2006 - 10:21pm PT
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PDHman, you are so right.
Several prime crags in the south were closed because of ONE or TWO selfish idiots who mouthed off to landowners, asserting their right to do as they pleased on private property.
Tahoegoofball notwithstanding, anyone who feels that the arch debacle was wrong should call or write Patagucci and tell them up front you are not pleased with the acts of thier sponsee, and that if they do not take some action, you will not be buying pattagucci.
Potter drew a line in the sandstone, we should all cross it and put distance between ourselves and him.
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PDHMAN
Trad climber
Eastside N of Bishop just S of 395
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May 28, 2006 - 10:22pm PT
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LOOM: "Has Dean directly harmed you in any way?"
YES!!
NO MORE FA's in ARCH's!! Where have you been??? And my two projects, that I have been quietly working on the Tower of Babel for the past three years, can never be finished!!! I was on my way the week he climbed DA to finish them and then...BAM!!!
NO MORE BOLTING OR NEW ANCHOR's!!!!!
WHY?? DEAN POTTER...that is WHY!
LOOM...Until DEAN did his thing, ARCHES was a quiet and low keyed playground. The rapport between climber's and the NPS in the Park was great! Now, we are sh*t! Wake up LOOM and smell reality. One persons actions has destroyed the hard work of many. Ask Jimmie Dunn. That is the reality of all this. And it SUCKS and DP is sh*t, regardless of my political view, sexual preference, gender, race or....
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Loom
climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
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May 28, 2006 - 10:32pm PT
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Dean climbed Delicate Arch.
The NPS banned FA's.
Did one thing HAVE to lead to the other?
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PDHMAN
Trad climber
Eastside N of Bishop just S of 395
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May 28, 2006 - 10:52pm PT
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Regardless of "DID"...fact is, it has as a result of Potter! And many of us that worked hard to play there are now Fu*ked!!!
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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May 28, 2006 - 11:28pm PT
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Simple. Cause and affect.
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Loom
climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
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May 29, 2006 - 12:17am PT
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It's no different than opening a gate to let an historically agressive dog out which goes and bites someone. It's the dog that does the biting, so the person who opens the gate is not directly responsible, right? It's a bullshit argument.
Actually, it's a bullshit analogy.
I've been trying to cut back on my "over the top" analogies, but though it's extreme it's the one that comes to mind right now:
During WWII the German Army would respond to resistance in occupied countries by rounding up and executing 100 villagers for every German soldier killed, or 50 villagers for every soldier wounded during an act of sabotage. Sometimes the villagers would blame the resistance for the deaths of the villagers and turn on them.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 29, 2006 - 12:20am PT
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Good one stzzo
Loom, now htat you brand stzzo's words as BS, please provide the jsutification directly, not with another parable.
YOu can do that right?
Just lay out your refutation point by point, I'd like to see what is in your mind.
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PDHMAN
Trad climber
Eastside N of Bishop just S of 395
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May 29, 2006 - 12:26am PT
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Yeah, Thomas Jeferson screwed his slaves and made baby's! So was that right?
It is called accountability for one's actions. You drive drunk, get pulled over, get handcuffed, you go to jail, go to trial and then pay a fine, can't drive for six months etc.
LOOM, it is reasoning like yours that only enables this type of sh#t to continue. How bout I come over and take a giant dump in your living room and call it "Freedom of Speech". God you are as pathetic as DP!
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todd-gordon
climber
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May 29, 2006 - 12:32am PT
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I still believe the Park Service used Dean as a whipping boy and a scape-goat. I probably banged in more pins in Arches, and climbed more arches in Arches Nat.Park than Dean.....If it wasn't Dean, I honestly believe it would have been someone else, (Maybe me?) or even nobody.......restrictive laws and rules towards climbing are popping up all over the place.....some blame climbers for this or that, some just pop up on their own.... get used to it, bow down to the man, or go underground. I buy Patagonia stuff on sale, but never could afford to pay full price... not yet in my life, anyways......maybe some long underware or a hat....but that's about it for me. I would still buy Patagonia stuff (on sale) because I like some of their stuff, and I personally like climbing arches, I think climbing Delicate Arch is cool, and I think it's The Park Service and not Dean that is to blame. If you think the Park Service is after climbing and climber's best interests, you need to look at all the climbing regulations our government imposes on us, and look how they came about. And next month, or next year, there will be more.....who will you kick around then?....(Hope you'all have SOMEBODY to blame.... it's an easier pill to swallow.) I don't like the rules EITHER....never did, never will...but I realize that these laws can't often be stopped....so I adjust my mind, and my climbing plans to fit......I buy rock colored clothing, get dropped off so I don't even have a parked car, climb stuff that doesn't face the road, and I have at it!... it's fun....Be creative, don't give up, make a game of it, and realize that most of our dreams and plans and adventures can be done....just with alittle bit more behind-the-scenes planning, some walkie-talkies, some binos, and a headlamp. ....(Look at what McGiver can do with an air-freshner, a fingernail clippers, 3 rubber-bands, 2 hits of acid, and a baby's arm holding an apple...). Stay psyched, motivated, and remember when you were a kid on Halloween......it wasn't fun JUST to throw eggs at cars......it was BEST when they chased after you. I am a teacher....my profession is so full of rules and regulations,...it's twisted.....I follow some, but NEVER sell out, or bow down.....it's a game, and I still have fun with it EVEN will all the bullsh#t.... ya got to.
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PDHMAN
Trad climber
Eastside N of Bishop just S of 395
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May 29, 2006 - 12:37am PT
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So, Todd-Gordan, I shoot your ass dead. It's the Cops fault cause they arrest me and then the Judges fault that sends me to prison for life because I terminated your ass? Come on Man!
Chaos?
The NPS dudes at Arches were the low keyest and most hospitable I ever dealt with. When I rebolted many of the routes back 00-02', they applauded and supported my efforts 100%. You are wrong T-G about the NPS folks at Arches. They were cool to climbers till dickhead Potter broke the rules!
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todd-gordon
climber
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May 29, 2006 - 12:59am PT
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DPHMANN....you are correct..... The National Park people in Arches WERE cool....are they still? Hey, I love the place too.....It's one of my favorite places on earth. I am sad about these new rules. I wish it weren't so. I will still climb in Arches, and if I need to use a pin, I will (use a pin, save your skin)....and if a climb is illigal and I wish to climb it, I will be sneeky.......(I'm sure Dean wishes he didn't shoot the photos of Delicate arch now... too late.....)......everyone breaks the law......Let's just say, true or not, that last time a did a new route....(Maybe it was even today.....but I can't say, because that would incriminate me, wouldn't it?.... maybe it was a cool traversing thing on a cool white dike past 6 bolts in a very beautiful setting WAY up high.....on a beautiful day too..... maybe it wasn't too....).....but out here at Joshua Tree, people aren't allowed to do new routes in the wilderness....I try to follow rules, but sometimes.......I won't go on.... because I don't want to say I EVER do anything illigal. I wish these rules weren't here.....work around them........hasn't stopped me....and it won't. Looking back, it almost seems like half the fun of climbing Shiprock, Spider Rock, The Totem Pole, Cleopatra's Needle, and lots of other things I've been fortunate enough to climb, was the whole logistics of working around silly rules that I wish weren't there.... Don't loose faith in climber"s ability to adapt.....(Look at Chongo and the 2 week limit...) Cheers, and keep the faith....don't give up, give in, or bow down......you seem like a sneeky enough fellow, DPHMANN.......buy some red sweatpants, call up Dean for some climbing or beta(He knows the place well...) and a red Patagonia jacket and CLIMB ON! Yeeeehooooo!....(You think our Government restricts climbing?.... try having 3 kids... THAT will slow ya down WAY more than any silly Gov. rules......piss on the Gov.....I didn't vote for him anyways...)
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Loom
climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
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May 29, 2006 - 01:41am PT
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LOOM, it is reasoning like yours that only enables this type of sh#t to continue. How bout I come over and take a giant dump in your living room and call it "Freedom of Speech". God you are as pathetic as DP!
PDH,
First, I think we should all agree to put our analogies away.
But if you did take a dump in my living room I could probably make it so you'd never sh#t right again . . .
. . . but what would I really do? I'd say, "DUUUDE WHAT THE FVCK ARE YOU DOING!" and laugh my ass off. Then I'd tell you that you've had too much to drink and you should go to sleep, because you're climbing in the morning. Then I'd get out the dog-sh#t-kit. Then while you were in the can I'd put the turd in your sleeping bag.
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todd-gordon
climber
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May 29, 2006 - 02:23am PT
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DPHMANN. I do believe your projects on Tower of Babel are still WAY do-able.....Here's what I believe is up....so now the Park service has these new bullshit rules of no new anchors. So you go up on your projects, do your thing, place anchor bolts or pitons or what-ever it takes to do your new route. Have fun, challenge yourself, fix ropes, go for coffee, whatever. Chances are no Ranger will see you, ever say anything to you, and even if they DO see you, these rangers are busy, most are cool people, and do they know if you are on a new route?... probably not.... IF by the VERY slim chance a ranger talks to you, tell them you are on Jim Beyer's route, and it was rad. If they asked you if you were putting in anchors or banging in pins, just say you were replacing old anchor bolts....which is leagl EVERYWHERE. I know lots of rangers... ..they are NOT after ya, and most have much more to do than deal with climbers and silly climbing rules. Rangers are over-worked, underpaid, understaffed, and like to party! I believe you will do your Tower of Babel routes, and it will be cool. I've climbed that Zenyatta Entrata route long ago... before it had pin scars... it was fun!... those routes on the right side.....not for me... but if they are YOUR bag.....good on ya! Then head over to the Fishers and........(What if they ban pitons in the fishers?... never know.......)... Check this out... we SERIOUSLY considered hiring a helicopter to fly us off the top of the Totem Pole..........If you want if bad enough, The Park Service, Dean Potter, Patagonia, or George W. aint' gonna stop you. Good luck with your new routes. GET ER DONE! Raise the spunk bar and send em' reguardless. THAT is the spirit of climbers.....there are lots odds , and challenges, and hoops to jump through.....
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Loom
climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
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May 29, 2006 - 02:31am PT
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The enemy in your analogy does not respond to lobbying and negotiation, persistent demonstration that their concerns are not founded. The only way to keep such an enemy from knocking you down is to hit them back.
stzzo,
I said my analogy was over the top. Dean isn't a resistance fighter, the NPS isn't the NAZI party, though some rangers haven't gotten the memo.
Unfortunately, because of my imperfect analogy, I can see how one might think that I was arguing that Dean was part of some brave attack against the evil NPS. But you see that's just the thing, he didn't attack the NPS at all.
My point is that The NPS, like many powerful bureaucracies, reacts arbitrarily and vindictively. Attacking the group in a way that lacks rhyme or reason.
Climbers can sometimes effect change through lobbying, etc. Why isn't anyone protesting the park service's over-reaction?
In your analogy Dean intentionally let a vicious dog out that later attacked people. Literally speaking, if this were the case what should the response be? If we could show intent or just that an ordinary prudent person would know what could result Dean would be punished.
What would we do to the dog?
But the NPS is not a dog, and Dean doesn't fit the profile either. The NPS is made up of people. The NPS, as an organization, is responsible for the wrong that it does, just like Dean is responsible for what he does. If Dean is caught breaking the law he'll get nailed for it, and then we could lobby against an unjust law, or just sneak around it from now on. But the law was written ambiguously, and in their frustration at not being able to punish Dean they lash out against all of us.
We kill the dog, not because it is responsible, but because it is dangerous. The NPS is responsible for its over-reactions.
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PDHMAN
Trad climber
Eastside N of Bishop just S of 395
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May 29, 2006 - 08:13am PT
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T-G: The Ranger's already have seen us and they already stopped us(Partner was there 10 days ago recceing on P-1 of one of the Projects). I too have been playing at the Arch's since late 70's and know very well the rapport and lack of "Nazism" that the NPS Law Enforcement folks NEVER envoked on climber's. I am very familiar with the "Friendliness" attitude that the NPS gave us. Maybe it is becuse I was active duty USN then & now Retired, don't know.
But the fact remains, and Piton Ron, Jimmie Dunn, Eric Bjornstad, Charlie Fowler, Jeff Achey, Duane Raliegh, Jim Beyer, Allen Steck etal, can attest to this, The "Arches" was a very cool and low keyed playground for the past 40+ years. Hell, even Ed Abbey, when he was the first "Care-Taker" of Arches wrote in "Desert Solitaire" about the well defined "STAY OFF DELICATE ARCH" law. In fact, he was the first Govt dude to put up the sign saying so. We, as climbers, were pretty much allowed to play at will as long as we respected the wishes of the NPS and remained off certain well known and identified features. We could FA at will as long as it was discrete and aesthetic. Now, suddenly after the "Limelight" of DP and his selfish egotistical behavior, we are "SHUT DOWN" and the NPS is declaring the restrictions as they have in neighboring Canyonlands. The era of peace and good relations between NPS and the climbing community, one that was an example of cooperation between the two and that many worked delingently to acquire and maintain for many years, is DEAD! All as a result of one individual and their selfish and very noncaring attitude.
That T-G and the rest of you that display empathy and support for DP, is the WRONG in all this. That is what drives quiet, low keyed and discrete old fart "Hardmen" like myself, to the point of total disgust and anger. That is what drives me to ask the "Rich and Famous" elite of the climbing community to speak up for what is right and wrong and to publicly denounce individual actions and behavior such as this one, so that we that respect and play well with others, can continue to have a "Sand Box" with sand, to play in, and not have them all taken away!
LOOM: The fact remains that the NPS is simply doing their JOB! They haven't "Over-reacted", they have simply just mandated what the rest of the region has enacted as far as restrictions that were held off for many years at the Arches. Why, maybe and most certainly because of what I just described above. The law abiding climbing community that played in the Park for many years, has known for all those years that if anyone broke the unwritten code of respect for certain features, we would be shut down. It was like the old mean fart who is the care-taker of a fenced in lot that allowed the neighborhood kids to play "stickball" in the fenced in field, which had "No Tresspassing" signs all around and that had signs all over the shack that said "Keep Out". As long as the kids stayed out of the shack and took good care of the field, they could play and have fun. Suddenly, some punkass kid shows up, hops the fence and then decides not only to break into the shack, but televise it to show everyone he did it and then flips off the Old Man, all in the name of "Look at me you old Fart"! What a gonna do?. Thus, to protect his job, no one can no longer play in the field. Is it the Old care-takers fault, nope. Give me a break LOOM. Common Sense dictates here!!!!
Plus, "But if you did take a dump in my living room I could probably make it so you'd never sh#t right again . . ."
My reply is "Don't go there" as I have done it before and the owner simply watched with no intent of any replisal for fear of the ensuing mayham that would occur...Hooooyaa!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 29, 2006 - 08:37am PT
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THis stay off the scenic value stuff is everywhere.
NPS at Sunset had made certain climbs off limits because climbing them distrubs someones idea of the historical view.
NPS in the BSF says no climbing on certain overlooks.
BUT also, in teh BSF, a group of rangers in aa training course came and socialized with us on the O & W bridge, While we were all drinkning beer, and BTW that is OK in the BSF. Ranger Rick was the one I remember, they wanted to let us know how to get along and keep things on the good side, told us in effect that they were happy we were there, and as long as climbers were responsible there would be no problems. Being responsible included not cutting trees!! DUH, seems simple, but more than one silly climber has seen fit to cut what could be gone around.
By working WITH the NPS officials, climbing responsibly has been permitted and even supported by the rangers-- at sunset supported AGAINT the wishes of wealthy land owners up top, some of whom offered to write a check for whatever it took to get rid of all climbing at sunset. And climbers built and maintain the damned trail these dolts walk on!
Furthermore, ONE ranger at sunset in particular has taken grief from climbers for doing his job, even though he has fought FOR climbing. Sure he will ticket you for breaking the laws of the park, and sure he has not been happy with ill treatment from certain stupid climbers, and that has made it harder for everyone.
Once again, we see that ONE stupid, thoughtless, selfish climber can ruin it for the rest of us.
Tar and feather this pariah, and let the NPS know that most climbers are against wanton disregard for their ideals.
You want to keep climbing in the parks, work with the NPS, not against them.
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PDHMAN
Trad climber
Eastside N of Bishop just S of 395
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May 29, 2006 - 08:49am PT
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HOOOYAA! THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT A CONCEPT!
AHHHHHHHHHHH............
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todd-gordon
climber
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May 29, 2006 - 10:14am PT
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DPHMANN. Maybe you are right. I don't know. IF you are right, then Dean blew it for Arches, Gilge blew it for Canyonlands, Nichols blew it for Traprock, Chongo blew it for Yosemite, Ron blew it for Valley of Fire, I blew it for Joshua Tree, Gaines blew it for Tahquitz, etc.....each climbing area will have its lame-o rules and the "bad" man who made the rules come about. We need a cage for all the bad guys in climbing, and we bow down to the unstop-able Government. It IS a scene that HAS been played out in many places, and it DOES frustrate, piss off, and spoil the fun, doesn't it? Climbers are notorious rule stretchers and breakers too. IF you are correct (which you might be...), then what now?.....Like I said...I don't like it either. Our options are limited... change Park Service, Tar and feather Potter and others, go underground, or hit the gym climbing circuit. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and frustrations, which we all share. Might be time to hit Texas Canyon, Lake Powell, Canyon de Chelly, Valley of the Gods (oh no...), and Colorado Nation Monument......(Or the local watering Hole for a few beers.). It's a tough situation, aint" it? I know, I sound like I'm trying to play Devil's Advocate, and maybe I am. I just know that I have gone through the same frustrations that you have for my local areas at various times in my life, and had to work around these situations....it aint' easy either. And...(on the good side) there is alot of rock out there, and only a few gov. officials to enforce rules made, for whatever reason. Good luck, and good climbing.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 29, 2006 - 10:41am PT
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As long as folks are talking about letter writing mode, it might be the best idea to write the Arches Superintendent with ideas along the lines of:
"The climbing community appreciates the history of reasonableness and amicability between NPS and Climbers in Arches National Park. While we understand that the recent rule change might have been a necessary stopgap measure to plug a loophole in the regulations, the climbing community looks forward to a positive dialog aimed at preserving the ability of climbers to use and enjoy Arches National Park while protecting the resources there for all users and future generations. Lets work together to fine tune the regulations to allow appropriate access while assuring protection."
While NPS has a certain groupthink culture, it is composed of individual human beings that respond well to being treated as such, which respect and consideration. The best way to win a war with the "the man" is to avoid war in the first place.
Peace
Karl
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 29, 2006 - 11:13am PT
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Well THERE"S a good idea to come out of this mess, indeed.
Thanks Karl.
Why don't you or someone who has it post the address too?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 29, 2006 - 11:14am PT
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Hey, slow down guys. I'm still trying to put up a route with three rubber bands and a baby's arm holding an apple.
(The apple is the wrong size.)
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 29, 2006 - 11:36am PT
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ROnbo! that is really good, austin powers, gold member, baby holding an apple, LOL.
Shouldn't that be in the Dr Laura thread?
I bet you could protect a climb great with a rocket powered vibrator, built by Juan.
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jstan
climber
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May 30, 2006 - 10:57pm PT
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I have just found out about "supertopo" because one of my posts was recopied here. I had no idea those little buggers could run around like that. Anyway I then read the posts on this thread. Do you ever get the feeling that lessons you have learned, sometimes at great cost, might be helpful to others? I have that feeling now and I will leave it to yourselves as to whether I am misguided in this.
Many years ago in the piton question I was advised by well-known personages the only way to make climbers do what you want them to do – is to ridicule them. While this was well-intended advice and I took it so, on reflection I could not name one climber I knew who would yield to such a stratagem. To boot I was not interested in having people yield to anything but their own best judgment and the counsel of their friends. The answer lay in people dispassionately examining separately and together the options remaining to us, and together making a good choice. Which is in fact what we did.
I will describe one of the mistakes I made. In an attempt to see if trails might answer the problem of damage to the mountain laurel I spent a couple of days putting up ribbons in hopes I could then stand back, look at the whole picture and see if there was a way to help it survive. Some good friends took offence to what appeared to be a unilateral action, and took the ribbons down. In subsequent discussion they were, not surprisingly, heated in their feelings. Now I could have got off by being heatedly self-righteous. But was it more important to me to feel righteous or was it more important to solve the problem? Angry people have a hard job weighing facts and options. Indeed anger often appears when people are simply unwilling to face problems and unwilling to choose the things they will give up. I admitted my error, as it surely was, we got past the anger and ways of approaching the problem better than mine were found. All of us continued on, together, in search of answers. It proved to be one of the best mistakes I ever made. I learned a lot.
As I have before stated I was the worst possible person for the task I had taken on. My decision to learn rock climbing came in 1963 when I snowshoed into Avalanche Pass in a raging blizzard and saw the dark awesome mass of Mt. Colden being swept by waves of snow. I wanted to be up there, alone. People, are not my strong suite. I was wrong for the task, and that is precisely what made me right. I knew I had a lot to learn and I knew I had to change. I suspect young climbers today are not a whole lot different. I can tell you this. If you reach down, double knot your shoelaces and say, "I am going to do this damn thing come hell or high water." you will never regret your decision. I never did. Not for one moment did I regret it.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 31, 2006 - 02:40am PT
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SO, you think your trying to mark out a trail to save the laurel from the trampling of everyone just charging up the hill any way they felt like was wrong?
I think you are too politically correct, and seeking a concensus that is not in the best interest of saving anything.
Sometimes you do have to beat people over the head with something to get a point across. It's unfortunate, but some people just don't realize the damage that they do, and will continue to do damage until you stop them.
If someone breaks into your house do you try to reason with them?
IF someone had vandalized this arch with black spray paint swastikas would you feel the same way as you do now, or would you be calling for their head?
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ThomasChermack
Trad climber
Minneapolis, MN
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Hello--- I just returned from a three week trip in the Indian Creek / Castle Valley / Moab / Arches area. It was my 5th trip there and I am repeatedly called to return.
What is so magical about this area is that it is one of the few places without strict rules and regulations -- one of the few places where one can still experience the desert solitude so beautifully written about by Abbey. (Think of camp slime in the gunks....what a difference, eh?). Nature is trusting us in these areas to behave as respectful travelers of the land. The WAG bags at Indian Creek and at Castleton are a good thing and I hope climbers will make every effort to respect and preserve these areas and all they have to offer.
Regarding the recent events in Arches I can only really say that I am scared that the impact will be far reaching. Consider a wost case situation of no camping at Indian Creek -- what if we had to drive in from Moab everyday? This may be an exaggeration, but is it really that far fetched?
I do not consider it my place to offer any judgement here -- what is done is done. My purpose is to urge climbers to move forward toward establishing the best possible relations with park managers and rangers.
The incident has inspired me to write a respectful and apologetic letter to Laura Joss, to write to the head ranger at Canyonlands, to increase my contribution to the Friends of Indian Creek, and to increase my contribution to the Access Fund.
I urge you all to do the same.
With respect,
Tom
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
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Bump. Now there's someone in tune with rocks and nature, and people too.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Nature is trusting us in these areas
I TRUST NO ONE!
carry on....
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