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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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Oct 31, 2012 - 06:44pm PT
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Other than leaving trash behind, how do climbers break the law at NJC? I see few climbers camp there. If you could get away for an overnight stay, why on earth would you go to NJC? Camping in designated campsites, not a problem for most climbing folks. Burning wood with nails or other metal fasteners? How many climbers have you ever seen bring firewood out to NJC?
I believe most of these problems are from the ATV crowd but I could be wrong on this.
I am happy to pick my trash along with anyone else's I find but the rest of the rules are most likely not being broken by visiting climbers.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Oct 31, 2012 - 06:50pm PT
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Is this "host" the guy with the two big ass german shepherds?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 31, 2012 - 06:59pm PT
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NJC is clearly a climbing area with little to offer to the general public.
the general public seem to be enjoying it plenty.
This land is our land, that land is your land...
edit - seems completely reasonable, as a popular sport crag next to ~15 million people (with rapidly increasing traffic) it should get buckled down. A lot of high impact user groups there, and though climbers are closer to the bottom, there IS impact.
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middle joe
Trad climber
OC
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 31, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
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One of the few things I think is a true improvement, is that the OHV have been banned from the camping area, which effectively keeps them from camping there too. The camp host mentioned the OHV crowd don’t like this rule, but he was very clear he was having trouble with climbers now.
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Oct 31, 2012 - 07:03pm PT
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Camp "hosts" are typically people looking to have a free place to stay with their RVs. They are not really BLM employees. This one sounds like he's on some kind of power trip, and is also misinformed. It's probably worth calling the local BLM office and talking to the person who has real authority over what's going on. You would at least be able to get specifics from the BLM site manager about what the perceived issues are.
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middle joe
Trad climber
OC
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 31, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
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Elcapinyoazz – Didn’t see any dogs last weekend, He looked to be mid to late 60’ies, with the attitude of a retired marine.
GDavis - No trails, no nearby attractions, no OHV anymore, no shooting, not all that pretty, not much for families to do but climb, the only attraction is free camping (for now).
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 31, 2012 - 07:11pm PT
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Thanks for bringing this to our attention!
I had missed the part about the OHV's being restricted, that makes sense. Really, that was all I had seen besides climbers.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Oct 31, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
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so much for SushiFest at NJC ;-)
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Oct 31, 2012 - 07:19pm PT
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Those rules are pretty damned simple to follow. Why the fuss?
It is hard to piss off the BLM, but if the campground manager is their only contact, then maybe the campground manager is getting a little over their job description.
I only say that because BLM land is unlike other federal lands. Normally you can do almost anything you like.
I would research how those rules even came into effect. If it isn't an archaeological site or sensitive habitat, the BLM tends to let it go. There would be a revolt if you couldn't take your dirtbikes and guns into the BLM land in Nevada.
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middle joe
Trad climber
OC
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 31, 2012 - 07:22pm PT
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plylp - I feel the same way, but he is in charge out there. Pre-improvements NJC was pretty much an “anything goes" area. The BLM may have had some rules, but there was nobody there to enforce them. I’m just trying to let people know that if they go out there with the old “anything goes/free-for-all” attitude they may make things worst for other climbers.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Oct 31, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
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Sounds like a different "host". Last guy I saw had two burly dogs and would just drive around in his giant diesel dually and stop it at the bottom of crags idling some sweet diesel fumes while staring at you. Not even a greeting.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Oakland, CA
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Oct 31, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
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That camp host was a creep who would just stalk you in his truck. Not sure if its the same guy or not but it doesn't sound like much of an improvement.
Everything about the BLM handling of NJC is super weird. Gravelling roads right through washes... tons of gravel washed into the desert after the first storm.
Installing a camp host. WTF for?
Putting a fake dinosaur skeleton playground in the middle of the desert.
Trying to enforce rules in a place like NJC.
All that camp host can do is get on his phone and call a BLM ranger. THen wait 20 minutes for the ranger to show up. He can't write tickets, all he can do is make noise. BLM does a good job of picking fascists for the job though.
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middle joe
Trad climber
OC
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 31, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
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You're right, it is weird plan. No input from the land users (climbers) that I'm aware of. The new camp host is a bit aggressive about enforcing the rules, he came and talked to us 3 times in the first hour we were there. I heard he was stopping cars as they left and lecturing/questioning everyone.
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Oct 31, 2012 - 08:10pm PT
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I went there several years ago on my way to JT. Pulled in at night. It was a free for all. Guys riding horses with Josie Wales outfits shooting their pistols in the air, while other guys shot potatos covered with glow stick liquid out of PVC tube. We called it Yahoo City!!
The next day my buddy Donny bailed of a really overhang .12 and Josie came up on his horse and retrieved his draws. I thought I would have to drive my truck in and step on the camper shell to get them.
Besides all this, the broken glass, it was fun convenient climbing for a day or two. Always wondered how things would progress there with higher usage. Not just climbers but everyone.
Scariest part was pulling into the McDonalds in Barstow right before the turn off for HWY 247? I did not go inside!!
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Oct 31, 2012 - 08:15pm PT
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If climbing is threatened, nobody will go there. Certainly not enough to operate a campground.
If Climbing IS threatened, then get organized. Get the word out and then flood the BLM with emails and letters. Make sure that you CC the head of the Dept of Interior.
That leaves a paper trail which is useful later.
Start off easy. Don't let anyone go berserk and write threatening or batshit crazy letters.
The Wichita Mountains Wildlife Refuge came THIS CLOSE to having all climbing banned.
The USFWS quoted a biologist and a couple of other visitors as reason enough to shut us down. Wrong thing to do, as the climbing community had a number of PhD's onboard with way more experience in all facets.
The USFWS first did an environmental review that was totally bogus. Some of it had some geology in there, and since Oklahoma Climbers were filled to the gills with geologists, we tore the environmental review to shreds. I mean, they didn't do their homework, thinking it would be a cakewalk to get their way, and we tore them to shreds.
We started a very efficient organization and were lucky enough to have a senate aid in our group. He wrote a few letters to the head of the USFWS over the matter and they ignored him.
In the next big bill that came through the senate, he inserted a small law that required that the USFWS to do a thorough review before banning any recreational activity. That wasn't a big deal in the Wichita's, but it affected jetskis on some lakes, and other things that the USFWS was up to.
After that bill passed, the refuge manager took "early retirement," and a new manager who had a brain, was put in place.
We never wanted to hurt anything at the refuge, so we came up with our own set of rules to keep climbing from getting out of hand with the rising population of climbers. Mainly this involved a bolting committe, which has been no big deal, because it is a trad area and most of the bolting consisted of replacemnent and power drills in the wilderness part.
We did insist on banning sport rappelling there. The Refuge adjoins Fort Sill to the south, and there had always been a steady stream of drunken off duty soldiers who were rappelling with zero knowledge and getting hurt or worse now and then.
We also built a proper trail into the best climbing area, financed in part by the Access Fund. We bought a ton of trailbuilding equipment and donated it to the refuge. They use us as an annual slave labor unit to keep our trail and others in shape. I never realized how important proper trails are until then. Without an obvious trail, there ends up being a spiderweb of eroding trails all over the place.
It all ended up good for climbers and the Refuge all around. We never intended to really punish the USFWS, because they generally do a good job, or at least they do here.
What followed is 20 years of peace still going strong.
Another climbing area about an hour west of the refuge is a big slabby dome that was on private land, but the farmer loved climbers and we used to pretty much live there in a mini-camp 4 situation.
He died and a developer wanted to buy it. We raised half of the money and the Access Fund matched it. So we bought our own climbing area. Since the Access Fund and the climbers aren't in the land owning business, we donated it to the state and it became part of an adjacent state park.
In the deed it says that climbing will always be allowed. We had an attorney write up a really solid deed.
It was a big deal, Probably 150 routes were saved, and the governor even showed up for the ribbon cutting.
Everyone has to win something when negotiating. Climbers have to kind of get their act together to prevent the area from becoming a gigantic trash can, and land managers need to realize that climbers are a legitimate use of the area. If all parties walk away with something, then it is a win win situation.
Our fight took three years or so. When that legislation went into effect, heads rolled all the way to Washington, or at least to the District Office.
One little refuge manager went on his own crusade and got his ass handed to him, but in the bigger picture, we created a framework that everybody could deal with. Mainly that we could keep climbing.
A word of caution: Don't lose your cool and write a bunch of angry letters that will be used against you down the road.
I played the "bad cop" in the whole situation. We decided that I wouldn't be a part of the climber's association so that I would be free to bombard them with FOIA requests. Man, do they hate FOIA requests.
That was our template. It might not work where you are. It sounds to me like the only one in control of enforcing rules is the campground manager, and those characters are usually seasonally hired old folks who collect the money. They should have zero power over rule making.
So if there is a problem, start a dialog with the local BLM office. Good communication can prevent all sorts of problems.
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rurprider
Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
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Oct 31, 2012 - 11:23pm PT
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As middle joe, GDavis, and BASE104 have indicated up post...with improvements comes regulation. New Jack City was like the wild, wild west, but with the OHV, shooters, and partiers gone it should be a pretty pleasant destination for law abiding climbers. If there's an issue with the host, contact the BLM office and be vocal about your concerns. I'm sure if everyone who posted on this thread contacted the BLM and viewed their concerns, and had a friend or partner do the same, we'd have this sorted out, in our favor, in no time.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Oct 31, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
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Alrighty then! Cans it is!
I remember the creepy truck-stalker guy.
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susan peplow
climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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Oct 31, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
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^^^^^^ruprider^^^^^
Agreed, climbers are typically in compliance. Maybe this is is a new dude and not familar with the law-abiding climber type? If so, let's try not and be combative but educate the man that we are on the "good-side" of things. For now I plan on being respectful and assuming the host is trying to protect our public lands.
I certainly hope they're not one of those power hungry host type. If so, he doesn't know what he's in for. Lots of educated, professional climbers willing to go to the mat if needed.
As it has it, we're going to NJC tomorrow. This post couldn't have come at a better time.
~Sooze
edit: Yeah Erik, I was with Caughtinside when the slow-down motion came at 3 mph and the cruise throught the loop. WTF Host-Dude, shouldn't you be manning your 4 sticks of wood for a $5 "donation"?
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Yeah- we are heading out there this weekend too as a matter of fact.
I suspect the camp host is misinformed, or just on a power trip inflating issues that either don't exist or are easily addressed. Hopefully the BLM is willing to open a direct line of communication. Some random "host" is not a reliable source of information about BLM management IMO.
Seems like climbers are generally in compliance with that board. Since they installed the campgrounds, banned the ORV's and made the NRA junkies unwelcome, it's a million times better. The only issue might be cars parking in random areas but there are currently no signs in place dictating the BLM's guidelines on that. Climbers are generally in and out in daylight hours (not violating the quiet time) and I haven't noticed large amounts of trash being left behind at the base of the climbs. Speeding might be an issue.
I dunno. Jus' speculatin'
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susan peplow
climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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Well my experience with the Barstow BLM is limited but I have some communication with them in the past. Not regarding NJC but other semi-unmonitored land use (Drylake bed in Joshua Tree). I found the BLM office to be extremely thoughtful, helpful and pleasant to deal with. They provided "off the record" insight and was happy to communicate.
Not sure what all that means regarding NJC but I'm hopeful any problems are limited to the current camp host who may/may not be new to the "position". I'm not fearful of standing my ground, but in this case I'm hoping that cool heads and compliance prevail. I for one am not going in looking for a fight and hopefully the same if for others. Once the host realizes that climbers are of no consequence he'll go back to his scrabble game and leave us alone. Right?
I'm glad this post came up; it arms people with potential problems and lets them think about it before anything actually happens. Remember, you can't control other people only your reaction.
edit: Riley, your experience is the general feeling I received from the BLM. Any issues I suspect are those from the host, not the local office.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Can we expect another free TR then? I am so tired of paying for the good stuff...
Another way of saying that current updates on this are appreciated...
Erik
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susan peplow
climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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Not much of a trip report other than no 5.7 is safe from Blitzo! The man is on fire!! Basically had the place to our little group with only one other couple climbing across the way. Peace, quiet and nice temps were found just as we like it.
Regarding the host..........
(snip)
We arrived without so much as even a wave of hello. No heads poking out, loop driving, waiving us down or any questions asked. For all we know they're passed out in their RV. It appears to be the same set up as last year, nice and tidy area for their residence and reports of maintaining the cleanest bathrooms in the BLM.
Best I can tell, it's hit or miss as to whether you get accosted from the guy. I'm still sticking with being respectful and I'm sure he'll reciprocate.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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no shooting
F**K THAT!!!
I'm gonna get me some property near Mariposa!
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bajaandy
climber
Escondido, CA
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Couldn't help but notice in the picture of the rules that "someone" changed the actual speed limit from 15 mph to 5 mph by painting over (and badly, I might add) the numeral 1. Check any BLM campground in the state... they're all 15 mph near camps, people and animals. Me thinks someone is making up their own rules.
But screw it... I'm not going anymore since I can't belay off the bumper of my buggy whilst I plink a few beer bottles with the rifle. Where's the joy in that?
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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While "the locals" who live nearer to J Tree are paying attention to this thread, it might be a good time to ask what the attraction of NJC is? I've never been there - is it worth a visit if passing by the area? I'm curious why people who live so near J Tree, which has 1000s of routes, would travel to NJC. Different weather? Different rock type? Different type of climbing?
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susan peplow
climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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NJC was developed long ago and for many years was considered somewhat of a chossy pile (Sorry Jack). We quite literally drove right past it on our way between JTree and Bishop dozens of times with no desire to even look at it.
Ultimately we did and happy for that. The routes are interesting and often bring up the discussions of what type of rock it is; much cleaner than anticipated with fun square edges to pull on. It's likely some sort of conglomerate which I'm sure people will add their opinions of. Some routes are short, some long in a wide range of grades. It's able to feed the masses by providing pretty quality routes to the newbies as well as experienced gym climbers chasing the numbers. Easy access with a variety of rock aspects that provide sun/shade for your day. Great shoulder season crag and often warmer and preferred to J-Tree in the winter when the winds are kicking up and crack climbing is feeling too cold.
I can't speak for all the locals but me, I like sport climbing and there isn't much to be had in Josh for that so travel is required. Plus, for me it's hard to get strong on 5.8 hands.
IMO, it's absolutely worth a visit if you're driving through. When traveling across the Country is it a destination crag? Probably not, but certainly fun to be had for a day in/out of your primary destination with easy drive up access and plenty to choose from.
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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We have spent a LOT of time out at NJC over the years. These improvements are good as long as the host does't go overboard, kinda sounds like he/she is behaving too militantly (and is creepy, an added plus, right?!).
We stopped going to NJ regularly for several reasons, not the least of which was the uptick in crazies, shooting, crime, noise, rif raf, gangish OHV people, etc., especially after a particularly bad experience with the latter (pulling up in a huge, container sized trailer right next to where we were camped and sleeping, drunk, terrorizing us on 3 wheelers 2 feet from our friends' tents, lighting huge logs on fire that were left to sit smoldering in the dirt, yelling, screaming, partying and so on)...you get the picture.
It was nice to see that they kicked those guys out of the area and I think also put in a second toilet (?). Disheartening to read that a new problem may exist especially as it relates to where you can camp. BLM = camp anywhere, preferably in already used spots (plenty of those at NJ). This isn't forest service. How many campsites are there and what do you do if they're all taken? Camping out there is a matter of convenience (not for the beauty of the place) so you can climb 2 days and not drive 5 hours in one day...maybe have some peace and quiet, see some stars, enjoy the desert in the early morning.
Phylp it's a fun sport crag - like Sooze says, lots of different grades, easy access to climbs...it helps keep you in shape! There are sunny walls for winter time...like anywhere it can get too cold if it's windy and certain areas can get crowded. I'd say it's worth a stop though, especially if it's mid week.
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froodish
Social climber
Portland, Oregon
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NJC is a great place to throw down when driving straight through from PDX to Joshua Tree. Almost always has campsites available. Get up in the morning, do a couple of routes, then head to the monument.
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Susan and Crusher, I appreciate the info.
I just ordered the 3rd edition of the Mayr guide - I had the first edition but nothing about NJC was in that one.
Thanks, Phyl
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Update
We were out there this weekend. I did not personally have a conversation with the host, but a person we were camping with talked to him.
The host was polite and only seemed interested in keeping everyone happy and safe so the host-bashing may be undeserved.
The issues/crackdowns are all items listed on the sign and are as follows:
Speeding is a huge issue. A camper's dog was recently killed by a speeding vehicle, so they are trying to keep campers and their pets safe. The dust from speeding tends to linger and sucks ass for the campers
...so please observe the speed limit.
Trash dumped in the restrooms is a big problem. There are no dumpsters, so people (not sure if it is campers or climbers) are dumping huge amounts of trash in the privies and it is a pain in the ass to clean up.
...so please pack out your trash.
Large loud parties have been camping and violating the quiet-time curfews. Evidently some (not all) of these groups have indeed been climbers, and they were not kicked out .. just asked to please quiet down when the party went too late.
...so please respect the quiet-time curfew.
All of these things seem like reasonable requests for a pretty nice free campground with tons of climbing, so it behooves the climbing community to respect them and help keep things kosher with the BLM IMHO.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Actually.. it was a guy that talked to him.. not me... ;)
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Evidently a couple of pre-dinner margaritas puts me more on my game :)
Edit to add: I dunno.. guy could be a bi-polar dick-wad and we just caught him on a nice-guy day. Just reporting what I heard this weekend. The concerns seemed legit.
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susan peplow
climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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Oh yeah, my attraction is strictly week-days which is pretty quiet and host guy mellow. Although, I have been there on a Saturday before and not my preference. I'm fortunate that I no longer fall into the weekend warrior title and generally leave the sport crags to those who are less fortunate punching the M-F clock.
I couldn't agree more with Crusher, it's a good place to go and relatively convenient to work on strength. Low desert, nice temps for 8 months out of the year doesn't hurt either.
The Mayr guide is pretty weak with many mistakes but Mountain Project does a good job of identifying the issues; plus with any experience you'll quickly be able to decipher the mix ups between line numbers and topos. It's still a good reference, just beware, it is not the gospel.
Justhemaid, did you guys have fun? Busy?
~Sooze
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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I've been out there for plenty of day- trips, but this was our first time actually camping there. It's not scenic, but the campgrounds are quite nice with the covered tables, fire pit, and even a built-in charcoal grill if that's your thing. Can't beat the price... that being FREE and you don't have to dodge gunfire and junkies like the good 'ol old days.
We had fun. Got my ass kicked since I'm not used to all the upside-down holds.
If you got the new info off Mountain Proj and actually took a walk somewhere other than Raven or Boyscout there wasn't a soul around.. even on the weekend.
\
BTW Locker... we went looking for "Bloot" and ended up lost in the choss-piles climbing some other random mystery routes LOL.
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