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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 4, 2012 - 04:52pm PT
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The talk about the Bolt on Surprise and the bolts on Double Cross (JT)got me thinking about something.
It's about time we stopped replacing the fixed pins on Etude. Sometimes there are two of them sometimes 4.
They are always in the wrong spots and replacing them over and over is causing damage to the cracks. This is making the route easer.
I propose we give Mr. Clark Jacobs two bolts and hangers and have him locate these in good spots.
I trust him.
I know of a few pins that have been replaced with bolts on other climbs around there and no bolt wars got started.
What do you think?
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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There is currenly one pin (not two, not four...we climbed it a couple weeks ago). It protects perfectly fine without the others. Take a green C3. If it is time to say goodbye to fixed pins (and I generally encourage that stance), then one bolt will suffice given the readily available gear.
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Johnny K.
climber
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^^ Exactly.
If anything remove the last pin and it may open up another bomber c3 placement.Bring a couple extra green and red c3's,the climb is well protected.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Interesting thread. The only pin that I remember being necessary is/was (sorry, haven't climbed in a while) the knifeblade just before the crux. Maybe I need to go climb it again, but I don't recall thinking that a cam would have worked there.
If the pins have required some maintenance, it seems reasonable to consider placing A bolt instead. If the bolt is every pulled for any reason, the hole can be filled. It's not like they do that with pin scars. My only concern about placing a bolt is that guyzo unwittingly raised the question of how many to place. There already appears to be a disagreement over that already.
Also, I know some folks don't ascribe to the slippery slope argument, but if you place one bolt next to a crack like that, you start legitimizing the placement of bolts next to other cracks that may accept gear more readily.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
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One bolt will do just fine.
Last time I did it - 2 years ago- there were 4 pins.... some in the holds.
If you can now place c3.... well that shows how much the holds are growing.
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lcote
climber
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Ever since I learned that the 5 fixed pins on Etude has been reduced to 1, I've given a lot of thought as to whether it was time to place bolts. My initial reaction was that adding bolts was appropriate; the cracks will no longer be degraded by placing pins and the pins will no longer intefere with the climbing. But the climb is still being boldly done on lead. Let's move climbing forward. There is a lesson to be learned from the Cerro Torre Compressor Route. Perhaps the climb may now be beyond my reach as a lead, I can live with that. Lets leave something so that the future of climbing can advance.
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dustonian
climber
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Etude would be perfectly fine without either fixed pins or bolts.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Lucas Dunn (The_Kid) led my weak ass up it no falls, with just the sh#t pins...
Etude would be perfectly fine without either fixed pins or bolts.
Very true. I think modern gear can protect it without the pins in place, right? Before I have any opinion on it I need to climb it again in its current condition. Otherwise, you know, I'm just talking out of my ass. Which is normal.
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Johannsolo
climber
Soul Cal
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I pulled the two pins out about a month ago as they are not needed. The first one left a bomber small cam placement and the top one is just before the jug out right. Clean fall potential on a great pitch. I did discuss replacing the pins with bolts with Clark and they are not needed.
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E
Social climber
Tujunga CA.
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how about removing one of the bolts on top of vampire mantle. climbed this several weeks ago and belayed in the crack -the old station. the belay now totally screws up the route. next time i will remove one of those bolts and trturn it to its original condition
is there a new bolt on surprise?
E
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 5, 2012 - 11:36am PT
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E ... Hi.
Good idea about the Vampire, I just love the long sling that hangs down from it... a extra hold.
The bolt on surprise is not true... someone got the info wrong.
About Etude, If the crack is now getting pounded out from repeted pin placements so be it.
We can have our own version of Senerity Crack.
Soon it will take #2 camalots.
I kinda liked climbing it when it was pretty much holdless.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Etude would be perfectly fine without either fixed pins or bolts.
+1
how about removing one of the bolts on top of vampire mantle. climbed this several weeks ago and belayed in the crack -the old station. the belay now totally screws up the route.
I never really understood the logic of doubling the old protection bolt and making this the belay (except, you don't have to belay down and right). While it did change the character of the first pitch (a bit longer and more sustained), having done it both ways I'm not sure it really makes much of a difference.
It has been doubled/belay stance for a very long time now. It would seem that if you removed of one of the bolts now, it will likely create problems for most people doing the route now-days (guide books show it as the belay and few remember the old way). Removal seems counter-productive and I imagine it will quickly re-appear.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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hey guyman nice thread!
when the old folks die off i'm going to march right in climb and add the bolt to etude.
until further notice i've boycotted stupid "ego-driven climber" roots!
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mite
Ice climber
New York
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My first reaction was that adding bolts was appropriate; the cracks will no longer be degraded by placing pins and the pins will no longer interfere with the climbing. But the climb is still being boldly done on lead. Let's move climbing forward.
http://www.siamvisit.com/
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 5, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
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My first reaction was that adding bolts was appropriate; the cracks will no longer be degraded by placing pins and the pins will no longer interfere with the climbing. But the climb is still being boldly done on lead. Let's move climbing forward.
Mite... I would agree but what is going on is this: If someone wishes to climb Etude, they show up with pins, pound them in, sometimes 4 or 5 sometimes they get left in place but mostly they get removed. Only the scars are left.....
not exactly clean climbing IMHO.
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froodish
Social climber
Portland, Oregon
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I haven't climbed regularly at Suicide since the 80's and it's been that long since I've done Étude, but seems like the handful of times I climbed it there were only 2 pins. Those seemed sufficient and I can't remember ever seeing someone with a hammer up on it. Are people really driving new pins into that thing these days?
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Doug Tomczik
climber
Bishop
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not exactly clean climbing IMHO
Don't place bolts if it's clean climbing you're after.
They are always in the wrong spots
What are the right spots? Are there right spots?
Let's move climbing forward.
Clearly put Lcote. Let's maintain this philosophy that Suicide is rooted in. Sometimes leaving things as is moves climbing forward.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 6, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
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Clearly put Lcote. Let's maintain this philosophy that Suicide is rooted in. Sometimes leaving things as is moves climbing forward.
Its a rare situation, the fixed pins have been getting changed out for bolts on a few climbs at T & S. The world has not stopped turning.
I think its a far better solution to use a bolt than some pin you can't trust to even be in place, or to hold.
And this stops the scars from growing and becoming very ugly....I think this really keeps the "clean" philosophy going.
Leaving things as "they are" means that folks WILL keep adding and subtracting those fu-kers and causing scars.
That makes the whole climb into one big growing pin scar....
And to edit... Dr. F .... when you "did it" "it" had pins... 2 or 3 and very thin wires.... now you can use cams. That should tell you something.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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think its a far better solution to use a bolt than some pin you can't trust to even be in place, or to hold.
i can agree having a pin but only if i have a pin hammer to test/ring test it.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Guy makes a point. When I did it, it took thin wires. That fact that you can get cams in speaks to the deterioration of the crack. To me, that begs the question, just who is heading up there with pins and a hammer? Do they really believe they are performing a service to others every time they wail away fixing some pins? I wouldn't.
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henny
Social climber
The Past
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I agree with the no bolts/pins approach.
The climb has been done off and on since the dark ages (prior to small cams) without the pins since they would come and go. Obviously I would then also think that if something fixed just "had" to be there that anything more than a single pin/bolt would be complete overkill. Etude is somewhat similar to the first of the Cross. Used to be a fixed pin in it also, but with the likes of RPs and small cams there's no need for one. That pin wasn't replaced with a bolt because it kept disappearing, in fact, over time it has come to be expected that a pin won't be there because there are gear options.
Adding a single bolt may not stop pin damage. People see the "p" in the guide that's missing and figure the missing "p" needs to be put "back" in. How to stop that is another question. People need to quit bringing pins and hammer to Suicide, and quit taking guides as final word. Just because it used to have fixed pins doesn't mean it still needs them (or even worse, bolts). Gear technology has advanced. Bolts sound like a knee-jerk reaction to the symptoms instead of the disease.
In general I do feel fixed pins should be avoided by FA parties. They seem to go bad, people need a hammer to check them, etc... They just don't seem to be a good sustainable choice. Just my take. Bolts for pins becomes a more difficult question when it is an established route and there are no natural alternatives. Etude isn't one of those cases.
Now, if we're trying to restore the route to as much of a pristine state as possible, let's rip that convenience anchor out of there as well. Used to be a gear belay for many, many a year. The convenience anchor additions at Suicide have been out of control for a long time.
Leaving it like it is now is the best choice, for the rock as well as climber commitment. The trick is getting people to accept the change when the guide shows there should be fixed pins.
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Nate101
Trad climber
Aliso Viejo, CA
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I climbed Etude today (with a fall), and found the protection adequate with the single pin. I brought a purple c3 and purple tcu, but didn't place anything smaller than a blue tcu.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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This weekend I watched AJ Burch and Dr. Tom Michael both lead Etude w/only the one piton.....they did just fine with that...
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2012 - 06:29pm PT
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Todd.... Hi....
How long will the pin be good for???????
How long till some one plants 3-4 more, making larger pin scars?
10 years from now, it will "go" with one pin only, but with no hands!
And Todd I am calling fake, those fellas in your photo-shopped pics are not even wearing proper climbing pants!
You need to think these things out.... sharp eyes are watching you.
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vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
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Will ballnuts remove the need in fixed gear? They often work great it thin pinscars.
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Someone mentioned The Vampire, and T&S are both being brought up. I have to throw in my two cents. I hope that no one ever replaces the bolt by the finger crack on The Vampire and it fades into obscurity. It is immediately next to a perfect finger crack, and unnecessary with modern gear and climbing standards. Does anyone know the history of why it is even there?
Josh
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