Respecting local ethics...thinking Internationally

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 1 - 76 of total 76 in this topic
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 27, 2012 - 03:48pm PT
Yuri Kruglov reports from the Crimea that a visiting American North Face Team violated strongly held local traditions in establishing a new route on 300 meters high Morcheka, one of their premier traditional crags.
Bolting on abseil seems to have been the major infraction. I don't know the details, so I won't draw conclusions regarding this particular case, but it leads me to some questions.
Climbing, more than ever, has become an Intrernational activity. With modern transportation and the Internet, more and more climbers are road tripping, not just to a neighboring state or province but to far flung countries.
Some areas have extremely strong traditons and ethics- think of the sandstone towers in the former East Germany. Some areas, like Patagonia, never established local ethics or traditions before being overwhelmed by climbers from worldwide. In Patagonia power drills and bolting next to cracks are commonplace.
Questions:
1) I think everyone agrees that local traditions should be respected, but, who knows, maybe someone has a dissenting opinion.
2) What about areas, like Patagonia, that became worldclass climbing venues before ethical
standards and traditions could be established. In the end, all climbing resources become
expendable. There is only a finite amount of quality climbing terrain on this shrinking (and
warming) Planet. Should we somehow try to work cooperatively on an International level to
try to ensure that future generations of climbers have the same resources that we currently enjoy?











survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Sep 27, 2012 - 03:53pm PT
I wouldn't show up someplace overseas and start rap bolting.

I don't even do that in my own country. Too many established lines that I can't climb already....heh..heh...

But yes, local traditions should be respected in all cases. Consult with the locals and gain their acceptance.

I don't care who you're sponsored by.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Moundhouse Nev. and land o da SLEDS!
Sep 27, 2012 - 03:54pm PT
locals rule, the rest are just visitors. do as the __ do else ya might get popped!
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
Sep 27, 2012 - 03:55pm PT
yes we should.

In 30 years I don't want to have to skip bolts just so I climb Czech sandstone like it was done back in the day.

what does the right balance look like?

what existing examples are there to model after?

does the division become territorial (this side is abseil, this side is GU)

or by committee, keeping a Zoo-like preservation area of traditional ethics, while the rest is abseil?



JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Sep 27, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
I'm not sure it's possible for future climbers to have the same resources we have, if only because the quantity of unknown rock diminishes over time. Pushing a new route when you don't know if it goes -- particularly if the protection is also unknown -- requires a different skill set from climbing on a known route.

While I doubt that I've made even 1/100 of the first ascents Jim has made, I've done enough FA's to know the fear of leading in the face of uncertain difficulty, rock quality and protection. The ability of future generations to experience that challenge is something that I doubt we can preserve.

As for rap-bolted routes in areas where that is outside the mainstream, there's always the Dawn Wall "erasure" treatment.

John
10b4me

Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
Sep 27, 2012 - 04:09pm PT
so what NF sponsored climbers have been in there lately?
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Sep 27, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
Hard time making that happen here, why bother internationally?

Oh wait, some trustfunders are vested in say Patagonia, so the rest of the climbing world should care?

Pfft.

Rap bolt it all.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Sep 27, 2012 - 04:35pm PT
As the planet shrinks we must celebrate those who climb clean.

Do great things, leave no trace.


How bad do we need a V8 boulder problem on the side of El Cap? ...or anywhere?

If the local ethic is to rap bolt clean crack, that ethic is still idiotic, no matter what location.


Cat Spray: The stink of uncastrated felines.


MH2

climber
Sep 27, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
With modern transportation and the Internet, more and more climbers are road tripping,


Not to mention corporate sponsorship. Which you did.

You are teetering on the existential edge, Jim Donini. A sure sign of aging.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2012 - 05:13pm PT
MH2 do you know about my corporate sponsorship? I've had very little. I've gotten a fair amount of free gear and I've parlayed some climbs into articles for which I have been paid but I've never been on an all expenses paid expedition like the ones the North Face sponsors. I've had to work for my adventure.
Most importantly, I've never taken a power drill to Patagonia and put in bolts next to cracks. I've done quite a few new routes, some pretty long, in mountain ranges around the World. The sum total of bolts I have placed on those routes is 4, all hand drilled. The last time I even brought any bolts on a first ascent was 1976- you can't use what you don't have.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 27, 2012 - 05:13pm PT
I have a huge rack of big bashies and wooden wedges! I'm ready to do new routes!

Who's with me???!!!!???!!!!

Mucci???

Jim?

(((crickets)))
crunch

Social climber
CO
Sep 27, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
Yuri Kruglov reports from the Crimea that a visiting American North Face Team violated strongly held local traditions in establishing a new route on 300 meters high Morcheka, one of their premier traditional crags.

That's maybe part of the problem. There's no names, the climbers in question are a visiting "North Face team."

Most likely the exact same climbers, as individuals, are great people, and as individuals would take time to learn, respect and go with local ethics. Why visit a new place otherwise?

Sometimes sponsorship (free flights? Free gear?) can create a sense of obligation to perform. To do stuff that will look good in the blog the sponsors provide.

Most climbers choose climbing in the first place because it does not have the strict rules and teams and all the formality that goes with golf, or tennis or athletics. So we're not always well equipped to deal with the stress that can come from being given free stuff by reps with big smiles and bigger pockets.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 27, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
Where the Hell is my free stuff?

That's what I wanna know?

Hello??? Anyone???

BTW, Crusher is right on with his assessment. Throw some money at some people and they start to feel the pressure to produce. Tit for tat so to speak.

OH, and Jim is a troll.

Chef Wade

Trad climber
Sep 27, 2012 - 05:22pm PT
At least it wasn't Redbull again. Theres some pretty well known climbers on that TNF trip, it would be a shame to hear thats who is pissing off the locals.
fsck

climber
Sep 27, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
they should call the route Crimea River









i'll just see my way out....
Woody the Beaver

Trad climber
Soldier, Idaho
Sep 27, 2012 - 05:41pm PT
WWCD? I remember reading, a few years ago, about a grotesquely mechanized and expensive sponsored trip to spectacular new routes in Antarctica. I remember feeling kind of sad that a beautiful chance was lost to us all; the chance that those routes and peaks might, left alone for a bit, have been approached in the graceful and thoughtful way that Charlie Porter might have taken. So I ask myself, when it comes to many action choices, "What would Charlie do?" WWCD? Gosh, I'm such a romantic.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Sep 27, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
Tomorrow, Matt and I are waking up at 5am to repeat our journey. Only this time we'll be carrying a drill, bolts, and more ropes. Another Epic Adventure awaits.

http://www.neverstopexploring.com/blog/2012/09/crimea-the-great-fairytale-adventure-story-.html







Hmmmmmmmm, maybe we need to revisit the Spanairds and their atrocity in the Fishers. Seems there are some "Sponsored paid for Amerikans" doing the same B-shet over there.

Pathetic.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Sep 27, 2012 - 05:47pm PT
Matt Segal, Cory Richards, and I (Emily Harrington) have bolted a new line on a beautiful feature called the Sail, while Cedar Wright has bolted another route on a neighboring wall with Sergey.

http://adventureblog.nationalgeographic.com/2012/09/10/climbing-crimea-emily-harrington-on-getting-up-everest-and-off-to-crimea/
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Sep 27, 2012 - 05:51pm PT
Boy, Natl Geo is in on this as well.


Gotta love the new world of climbing. Get it done to make that buck, spray it and get the fame at all costs. Get them numbers.

And Roadie says it aint a sport.....



Now what was that essay old Messner wrote some decades back....hmmmm.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Sep 27, 2012 - 05:52pm PT
I have a huge rack of big bashies and wooden wedges! I'm ready to do new routes!

Planning some FAs in Spain Jeremy?
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Sep 27, 2012 - 05:54pm PT
Sick!

Love those guys!!!

They crush everything from EVEREST to Pebbles.


JEREMY


I am bringin the Hydrabeer, you get your chizzles sharpened.

Oh, and bring yer mom, cuz I heard she is good with the WOOD.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Sep 27, 2012 - 05:54pm PT
Gotta love them.... Corporate Sport Climbers!
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Sep 27, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
The limited international traveling I've done always reinforces the basic rule of showing humility and respect. The locals and you may not share the same language or customs but they sure can tell disrespect, regardless!
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Sep 27, 2012 - 05:59pm PT
The Murder of the Impossible....

Expansion bolts are taken for granted nowadays; they are kept to hand just in case some difficulty cannot be overcome by ordinary methods. Today's climber doesn't want to cut himself off from the possibility of retreat: he carries his courage in his rucksack, in the form of bolts and equipment. Rock faces are no longer overcome by climbing skill, but are humbled, pitch by pitch, by methodical manual labor; what isn't done today will be done tomorrow. Free-climbing routes are dangerous, so the are protected by pegs. Ambitions are no longer built on skill, but on equipment and the length of time available. The decisive factor isn't courage, but technique; an ascent may take days and days, and the pegs and bolts counted in the hundreds. Retreat has become dishonorable, because everyone knows now that a combination of bolts and singlemindedness will get you up anything, even the most repulsive-looking direttissima.

Times change, and with them concepts and values. Faith in equipment has replaced faith in oneself; a team is admired for the number of bivouacs it makes, while the courage of those who still climb "free" is derided as a manifestation of lack of conscientiousness.

Who has polluted the pure spring of mountaineering?

"Impossible": it doesn't exist anymore. The dragon is dead, poisoned, and the hero Siegfried is unemployed. Not anyone can work on a rock face, using tools to bend it to his own idea of possibility.

Anyone who doesn't play ball is laughed at for daring take a stand against current opinion. The plumbline generation has already consolidated itself and has thoughtlessly killed the ideal of the impossible. Anyone who doesn't oppose this makes himself an accomplice of the murderers.

I'm worried about that dead dragon: we should do something before the impossible is finally interred. We have hurled ourselves, in a fury of pegs and bolts, on increasingly savage rock faces: the next generation will have to know how to free itself from all these unnecessary trappings. We have learned from the plumbline routes; our successors will once again have to reach the summits by other routes. It's time we repaid our debts and searched again for the limits of possibility - for we must have such limits if we are going to use the virtue of courage to approach them. And we must reach them. Where else will be able to find refuge in our flight from the oppression of everyday humdrum routine? In the Himalaya? In the Andes? Yes certainly if we can get there; but for most of us there'll only be these old Alps.

So let's save the dragon; and in the future let's follow the road that past climbers marked out. I'm convinced it's still the right one.

Put on your boots and get going. If you've got a companion, take a rope with you and a couple of pitons for your belays, but nothing else. I'm already on my way, ready for anything - even for retreat, if I meet the impossible. I'm not going to be killing any dragons, but if anyone wants to come with me, we'll go to the top together on the routes we can do without branding ourselves murderers.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Sep 27, 2012 - 06:02pm PT
Hi, my name's Tad Stoneworth, and I just got a fully sponsored trip to Crimpistan.

We'll be sure to get a lot of use out of our fully stocked Bosch kit, and we'll be rapping with the hottest new gear.

Please make sure to check out our blog with all our sick FIRSTS!!



I'd like you to meet my partner Rip Shreddington.
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 27, 2012 - 06:04pm PT
Mucci,

I'm in! Where we going?

You better bring A BUNCH of beer Dude...I ain't no PUNK!

;-)


J
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Sep 27, 2012 - 06:06pm PT
Dude,

I send on the suds.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Sep 27, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
Meet your team.

Credit: survival




Credit: survival
Jeremy

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Sep 27, 2012 - 06:10pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#141991

We are on the MOTHER F*#KER.

BAM BITCHES.
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Sep 27, 2012 - 06:23pm PT
i am 100% with Donini on this..
yup i've been sponsored over the years..
yup i have drilled many many bolts, by hand, by drill ground up and some top down.
yup i have been busted by the rangers for drilling, on lead on el cap. we never added a single new bolt to the Muir wall, we replaced anchors and added few bolts on variations..
when i go to a new area i respect the traditions of that area..

this is a trend now, these modern sponsored climbers need to keep doing these climbs and promote them to get paid and live the life they want. nothing wrong with that except when it impacts the local environment or ethics of that area..

so it will be interesting to find out who these cats were and what the logic was behind the ascent.
KS



MH2

climber
Sep 27, 2012 - 06:41pm PT
Wasn't talking about you, Jim. I was surprised by the downbeat tone of the OP.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Sep 27, 2012 - 06:46pm PT

That's incredible, Jim. You never cease to amaze me.
One of these days I hope to tie in with you.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 27, 2012 - 07:09pm PT
Yes, the more respectful corporately sponsored climbers that have carbon footprints bigger than Sasquatch are sooooo much more ethical.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Sep 27, 2012 - 07:39pm PT
Crimea climbers do have different ethics but they post clips to youtube
just like us.

At 3:00 min into this vid a climber whips out a paintbrush and paints
the name of their new climb onto the rock face next to the belay tree
after 1st using a wire brush to scratch the surface clean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip4RPYQrKik&NR=1&feature=endscreen


Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Sep 27, 2012 - 08:00pm PT


photo not found
Missing photo ID#265445
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Sep 27, 2012 - 08:04pm PT
I wonder if Rip Shreddington is up to some climbing in Chechnya?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2012 - 08:29pm PT
M of K, more than two views in a lot of countries. No, not more important but, because cultures and languages can be so different, misunderstandings are more prevelant when climbers travel to different countries.
rick d

climber
ol pueblo, az
Sep 27, 2012 - 08:37pm PT
solution: hand drill.

I've seen Jim Waugh put a 3/8" x 2 1/4" in under 3 minutes during an August electrical storm on Babo. Deuce put an unknown size in 1 minute flat on flat ground. It can be done.

It is because you are weak and your skirt is blowing up in you face if it takes longer than that.

If you go to an area (that accepts bolts in the first place), you drill by hand, and go from the ground up there are far less chances to screw a route up and piss people off.

Better yet, 'shoes, shirt, and rack on your back' and do the damn thing without a single hole in a day and you gain respect from climbing peers anywhere in the world.
orangesporanges

climber
Sep 27, 2012 - 08:44pm PT
When you're up to your neck
Style is everything

Fall like a man
Drown in the dust
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Sep 28, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
Whole Morcheka controversy discussed, in Russian, here:
http://www.risk.ru/users/blondie/195596/#c233671

From what I read the main mistake NF team done was taking a 'local' guide Sergey who is a great climber and all that but lives in St Pitersburg some 700 miles from Crimea and different country all together. Big part of the blame is on him, for not learning what locals feel about their rock. Sergey has spent a bit of time climbing in the area and has done some great things - like freeing old aid lines. But seems like he did not pick much of the local's ethics.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Sep 28, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
This particular situation may not be a good example, Jim, as per vlani's post above.

It might have been language barriers and a poor decision on who to trust on the part of the TNF "team".

If the guide, Sergey, a Russian, didn't find out the local Crimean (Ukrainian) do's and don'ts and none of the "team" speak Ukrainian or Russian then OOOOOOPS!!!!

Maybe the "team" felt they had an understanding of the local ethics via their guide when ...............they didn't.


FACEPALM!!!!!

vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Sep 28, 2012 - 06:01pm PT
Tami there is no language barrier between Ukrainian and Russian climbers. In fact folks in Crimea usually speak better Russian that Ukrainian.

It is more of a case of 'Imperial' thinking on a side of Russian climbers who take Crimea rock for they own back yard.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Sep 28, 2012 - 06:41pm PT
Thanks for that link, vlani!

Below's a bad quality, auto translation, excerpt from the Russian thread. They do mention this ST discussion, btw. And Sergey, who accompanied the NF team, is posting there, too. The complaint seems to be "top down" rap bolting, done by outsiders, not respecting local tradition.

Blondie 7:41 p.m. 9.27.2012
In this incident, there are two precedents - one small and one large. Small - spoiled the existing route. Big precedent - what happened - the first and only project Morcheke when the route is made ​​from the top down, not bottom-up. Violated an unspoken agreement about Morcheka - territory free from such projects. If this precedent is left unchecked, then soon all of our routes will be surrounded by such projects as Morcheka not rubber. Therefore, the precedent left unattended will not.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Sep 28, 2012 - 08:20pm PT
Therefore, the precedent left unattended will not.

Classic.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Sep 28, 2012 - 09:44pm PT
Here is couple day's old Sergey's post on his blog, in Russian again: http://vk.com/wall-35794982_205
Oh well..
Guangzhou

Trad climber
Asia, Indonesia, East Java
Sep 28, 2012 - 10:29pm PT
While I have not traveled or put up as many FA's as Jim, I have to agree, most countries have more than one point of view and ethics.

Bolting, not bolting is always a hard decision. I've only used a hand-drill a couple of times. I prefer to avoid them, if we have the technology to place a safer and better bolt, and the person putting in the bolt is willing to lug the extra weight up the pitch, I see no issue with it.

I don't bolt cracks, just can't bring myself to it, but I have lead face climbs on gear, bolted a belay station, and on the rappel made it a bolted climb. Especially here in Indonesia and Southern China.

Here in Indonesia, local climber form "clubs" pitch in money to buy gear. A climb of 15 people may own a rope, 4 pairs of shoes a few harnesses, and a collection of slings and biners that they all share among themselves. When I arrived, I donated 2 dozen QD and a rope to the local club so they could climb more.

Same was true in China.The limestone towers I was climbing offer protection on some places. Not everywhere. Bolting routes meant that local climbers, who often relied on foreigners to establish routes, could actually climb. Developing fully bolted routes also meant that the areas could have a couple of hundred routes instead of four lines 3 hours from the nearest city.

In general, I agree, if a route can be free of bolts, I prefer it that way. I don't believe no bolts should ever be placed. Think Glacier Point Apron or Stone Mountain, how many great routes wouldn't exist without bolts on those two formations alone.

Respecting local ethics is fine, I prefer to discuss them with locals and try to understand why they are what they are.

In Indonesia, I often find cracks with bolts and climbers are still beating angles into cracks when free climbing. I am not willing to do either. A few climbers here think I don't bolt cracks because I am selfish and don't want locals to climb them, or that I am showing off because I trust nuts and cams when leading.

Bolting, like things in climbing, isn't a cut and dry issue. The more a climber travels, the more grey areas they are for him to interpret.

I've met several climbers over the years who say bolts should go in Ground up. Or bolts should be hand-drill only. When I asked, most of them haven't put up a single FA.



Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Sep 28, 2012 - 10:40pm PT
Guang, thanks for this insight that most people would never consider. In most parts of the world, no one could afford to do this sport. Aside from the difference in people's income, they would have to import all the gear. Sharing gear in a club is a great way to do it, and that's just not going to be feasible with trad gear. I would personally have no probem with people bolting all the routes so the local climbers can do them. Although our trad climbing ethic is integral to the sport and should not be lost or limited to the USA. It's essentially the wilderness ethic of packing out your trash and not wrecking the place any more than you have to.
Guangzhou

Trad climber
Asia, Indonesia, East Java
Sep 28, 2012 - 10:49pm PT
I agree, and I still leave plenty of routes as trad. Again, routes a=that are mostly crack, I tend to leave unbolted. Even the face climbing pitch between the crack pitches if they take gear.

The local cliff I developed has 70 routes roughly. 6 of them are trad routes because they were cracks. One of the sport routes had a crack for the last 20 feet, I placed a bolt on it to keep it consistent. (60 Meter Route)

In general, if I think I'll need to bolt a route, I prefer to rap-bolt. Rap-bolting means I can place the bolt in the best place.

The local gear has a set and a half of my old Camelots and two set of fairly new nuts from me. They use the cam to do easy aid, A1 A2 stuff, but they don't believe people should fall on cams. Working on it.

Only guessing, but Columbia most be a hard place for local to get started in climbing too?

Tami

Social climber
Canada
Sep 28, 2012 - 11:41pm PT
vlani, what I meant was the TNF team speaks no Russian languages and had to trust Sergey . Sorry I wasn't clear in my other post.
ElbrusRace

Mountain climber
Saint Petersburg, Russia
Oct 5, 2012 - 05:10am PT
I am following mentioned by Vlani discussions at Russian www.risk.ru during good few days and it is not quite clear for me what "local ethic" was violated by TNF and Sergey...
I directed some questions to proponents of "ethical violations" but was not able yet to get clear answers....
Sergey is not a just "'local' guide Sergey who is a great climber and all that but lives in St Pitersburg some 700 miles from Crimea and different country all together" He is climber of new generation who is opening idea of free climbing to eastern climbing society. So that is quite reasonable that he was the one who introduced Crimea mountains to TNF. This year he spend in total 7 months climbing at Crimea!!

IMHO:
Sure there are some people, whose opinion was violated in some way, but it is still quite not obvious if the personal opinion is the "local climbing ethic"!
Sure there are plenty of climbers having quite different opinion and supporting Sergey Nefedov position
It seems the conflict is not about "ethic violation" but rather between "fathers" and new generation of climbers different view to what climbing in Crimea is (or perhaps even what the climbing is at all)

I am not going to say that one's or another's party position is correct on not - I just wonna say - it is not so clear and obvious case!!
(I apologize for my English)
Andrey and Serguey (2 brothers) during free climb of Mochombo ...
Andrey and Serguey (2 brothers) during free climb of Mochombo route at Marcheka (Crimea) (first and the only free ascent)
Credit: ElbrusRace
steveA

Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
Oct 5, 2012 - 08:43am PT
Crusher wrote-"Sometimes sponsorship (free flights? Free gear?) can create a sense of obligation to perform. To do stuff that will look good in the blog the sponsors provide".

I feel there is huge pressure on sponsored climbers to "perform", and get those articles written in the climbing mags; promoting various corporate sponsors.

A case in point:

Several years ago, a large North Face team went into the Wind Rivers, and a few months later, there was a large, centerfold spread in climbing magazine.
The article featured a "new" 16 pitch, 5.10 route up Ambush Peak. In fact,these guys had climbed a route I had done with John Bouchard 16 years earlier.
I would excuse the error; except that there was a photo of this free route and an old mixed line I did many years earlier, published in the AAC, ONE YEAR PRIOR, to the writing of the article in Climbing.

I was a little shocked; to say the least; and couldn't fathom how there seemed to be no research, prior to the writeup. A simple search of the AAC would of exposed the line.
Climbing mag. did correct the error, in the next issue.

I expect, as the sport evolves, corporate sponsorship, will even be more prevalent, and who knows where this will lead?
stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Oct 5, 2012 - 09:06am PT
All you can do to establish ethics in a place where you are essentially all visitors like Patagonia is to throw ideas on the wall and see what sticks. It's going to be a constant battle as it is now.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Oct 5, 2012 - 09:25am PT
Just think how you would feel if a bunch of French climbers came to Yosemite with the attitude of imposing what they believed were international climbing rules for bolting. This would not be welcome at all.

It's great to see people connecting with Russians and Eastern Europeans. Has anyone ever used their titanium gear? Seems like a better material to me. Guang sorry I did not see your comment before regarding Colombia. Adventure sports in general are not popular in Colombia, mostly because the outdoors are dangerous and largely controlled by armed guerrillas. Aside from that, many people's first instinct would be to treat you as a tourist and they would be your paid guide. I am not speaking from experience in Colombia - in fact I think most of the climbing areas here are totally unexplored. There are too many mountains not to have them.
garikgarik

Gym climber
Oct 5, 2012 - 10:01am PT
Hi i am new here and only registered to participate in this topic because the second side of the conflict is not present here, which is important to understand if there is a real ethic issue.
My point is that No ethics been violated and no harm was made to the rock itself, the only bad thing which creating the route named Cold-War made, was hurting Yury Kruglov huge ego.
Before CW route the only way to climb Morcheka was 40% skyhooking (artificial holes)and 60% of climbing, and Kruglov's route "Skyway" which was violated by one station is no exception it is a path of artificial holes imagine "Kompressor". Sergey and Cedar called Yury asking the permission to establish the station on Yury's route "Skyway" and permission was granted.
Now there is one route that can be just pure climbed. It is interesting and new and never been done before here. And the only way to make it was from Up to Down.
Mr Kruglov is a head of a local alpine governmental organization and is trying to rule and reign in the region, he personally has a lot of objections on other climbers activities in the region especially those who promote region for foreign climbers, who are not ready to make holes for skyhooks and other artificial points, who fix the old routes thus he acts like a whole bureaucratic routine machine.
For many locals here is clear, that mr.Kruglov wants to freeze all activities and initiatives in the region at least on the level when he was a climber, using so valuable reasons like ethics and environment.
Which ethics was violated and what is behind ethics and violation in that particular case? I can't see how exactly making a new, fresh and pure climb route can harm anybody.
The only real concern of Kruglov's i can agree with is that he doesn't want this rock to became a sport climbing gym place, at the moment it's a skyhook paradise and a good place for mountaineers to exercise their climbing skills.
With all due respect to the community and both sides of the conflict. Please excuse my English.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 5, 2012 - 10:07am PT
Thanks for your input...that's the way an open forum should work- viewpoints from all sides.
When I started this thread I said I would not comment on this particular climb because I did not know all of the facts. I used the brewing controversy as a template to initiate a more general conversation.
ykruglov

Trad climber
Sevastopol, Crimea, Ukraine
Oct 5, 2012 - 07:15pm PT
Hi all,
my name is Yuri Kruglov. I am keen traditional climber like many others in our area who enjoy and preserve multi-pitch traditional climbs in the area.

We never do any harm to sport or gym climbing routes. Luckily, there are no sport climbing routes or gyms on Morcheka - too scary for them ))). Our ethics on Morcheka mountain has few simple rules such as:

 Yes for rebolting when neсessary
 No for retrobolting
 No for rap bolted routes

These and the other principles of Morcheka climbing community could be found on the page 45 of the first climbing guidebook to Morcheka which was published in Sevastopol in 1999 and is available in Ukraine and Russia. One of the copies of the guidebook is always kept together with climbing logbook which is stored in the camp-site at the base of the mountain.

Anyone who ever been ещ the bottom of the face and climbed this iconic mountain is familiar with climbing ethics of Morcheka.

Ethics declaration is also available online at http://www.mountain.ru/article/article_display1.php?article_id=5834 together with the list of Morcheka FA who are top climbers of Ukraine and Russia.

Regards,
Yuri

P.S. I wish we had any climbing organisations backed by government )))
alvivanov

climber
Oct 6, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
Hello,

My name is Alexey Ivanov. I want to say few words about traditions which kindly mentioned Mr Kruglov.

>>Anyone who ever been ещ the bottom of the face and climbed this iconic mountain is familiar with climbing ethics of Morcheka.

That's a lie. Big lie. I've been many times in there and never heard about this "rules". Mr Kruglov is highly egoistic person. Some years ago he was a strong technical climber. One of the best in that times. Now he represents local bureaucratic sport organization and by any means spoils anything what contradicts his personal believes and bias. Unfortunately this happens to some of best sportsmen. At some point of their life they are best. And then they get older and youth become better. And some of such sportsmen become acrimonious with an irritable nature.

>>Ethics declaration is also available online at http://www.mountain.ru/article/article_display1.php?article_id=5834 together with the list of Morcheka FA who are top climbers of Ukraine and Russia.

This declaration is posted on the 4th of October, 2012. Few days ago. Never published before. The list is really questionable.

>>P.S. I wish we had any climbing organisations backed by government )))

That's really showing Mr Kruglov attitude to climbing. He wants to be dictator in Crimea climbing.

My message is in that all these is not about respecting local ethics - all these about ego of Mr. Kruglov who is intentionally deceiving climbing society.

Thank you.
Alex
Drew

Mountain climber
Oct 12, 2012 - 07:03pm PT

http://www.rockandice.com/news/2296-cold-war-professional-climbers-rap-bolt-crimea
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 12, 2012 - 07:09pm PT
"Locals" aren't always right, wrong, or informed when it comes to access, conservation and stylistic matters, and neither are "Outsiders". (Bearing in mind that the lines can get blurry.)

Whatever, better talk talk than war war, preferably before war war.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
Oct 13, 2012 - 01:19am PT
Just read Andrew's Rock and Ice piece on the subject.

The proposal that 'some climbers maintain coming top down is actually a way to minimize fixed protection' is a bunch of tripe.

Minimization comes from selective placement, and tired arms, not counting holes. The choice to selectively place bolts comes after the decision to go ground up or top down.

However, in as much as the ethic of ground up is to preserve the sense of adventure and keep the "murder of the impossible" at bay for as long as we can, then deliberately making run out routes top down is anathema.

Conflating ethical approaches with the goal of minimizing bolt counts is completely inapposite. By the way, bolt counts is a decidely aid climbing issue, not a free issue. So to use bolt counts as justification for a top down route to remain, just does not pass the sniff test.

Keeping traditional areas as ground up is really quite difficult in today's age where the collective group's safety and lowest common denominator seem to drive the 'fun' factor toward clip ups.

Many of us have cut our teeth on GU stuff and later decided to do some top down routes too, but there is an entire generation that has yet to be born that will never get the opportunity to try ground up efforts if we unnecessarily bolt everything we can via rappell in the next mere 20 years.

-Munge

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Oct 13, 2012 - 02:25am PT
Sure there are some people, whose opinion was violated in some way, but it is still quite not obvious if the personal opinion is the "local climbing ethic"!
Sure there are plenty of climbers having quite different opinion and supporting Sergey Nefedov position
It seems the conflict is not about "ethic violation" but rather between "fathers" and new generation of climbers different view to what climbing in Crimea is (or perhaps even what the climbing is at all)

Yeah, f*#k all those people who established the lines ground up, and set the standard. Since new generation can pull harder, it is for sure OK for them to rap bolt and retro bolt existing lines to free climb them. If you pull harder than the dinosaurs from the past you can do whatever you want.
Technogeekery

Trad climber
Sydney, Australia
Oct 13, 2012 - 05:11am PT
Excellent and balanced article from R&I.

Always make sure your "local" is local, I guess...
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 13, 2012 - 06:23am PT
Jim, absolutely no sarcasm intended. It might creep in, it's Friday.

Have you ever read Talk To the Hand: The Utter Bloody Rudeness of Everyday Life (or Six Good Reasons to Stay Home and Bolt the Door)?

It's a recent endeavor by Lynne Truss, author of Eats, Shoots, and Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation.

Of course, she's a hero of mine, since she, like myself, I feel, has very good things to say about topics which ordinary people don't give a damn about.

It isn't my place to elaborate. Others, including the darling of dots and dashes herself, are better equipped, since I HAVEN'T READ THE BOOK. Don't you hate it when some jerk starts telling you about some book he hasn't read? I do.

One thing I will do is to put up a link so you can familiarize yourself. It's polite elephantism to the middle rank. You're welcome.

http://www.lynnetruss.com/pages/content/index.asp?PageID=13

I want you to know I enjoyed her words in that link immensely. "Forensic polemic" (Here is where I tell you you heared it hear first) is a description of what Lynne wirtes. I got to luv this Great Brit, she's got true grit. A reg'lar little Mattie Ross. The rest of her words about her other efforts are hilarious.

For example,
Making the Cat Laugh, first published in 1995, is a collection of columns from The Listener, The Times and Woman’s Journal. By contrast with Eats, Shoots & Leaves, this book had quite abysmal timing. They now deny this, but my publishers did argue with me when I suggested, in 1995, that there might be quite a big market for funny books about single women in their thirties. Oh well. Making the Cat Laugh was published in a low-key way, sold out quickly and that was that. And a year or so later, along came the wonderful Bridget Jones, with the result that, for the next ten years, any funny book by a woman that wasn’t about a single woman in her thirties (such as my own Going Loco) was seen to be insanely out of step, and was marketed as chick-lit regardless.

Back on topic.
Credit: turd
Remember that time that turd told the story about the Spanish guys having the American on about the turd in his pocket? And he reached in to check it out? And the turd yelled out "I'm still in here!?" And the Spanish guys yelled out, "Viva la mierda!?"

That was awesome.






mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 13, 2012 - 10:32am PT
We may be in the Circus Room Bar making a mountain out of a molehill, one of Batso's proclivities.

Long live Low Sierra Proclivities!!!

And High Sierra declivities!!!!

And funky funded foreign climbing activities?

(Best I can muster, without aid. All-nighter, Jim.)
le_bruce

climber
Oakland, CA
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:33pm PT
Looks like a wave of apologies coming from TNF crew:

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/cold-war-in-the-crimea

Rap and retro bolted. Ouch.

Hard to swallow the "it's our interpreter's fault" excuse. Rap bolted a line AND retro'd over long-established traditional lines?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Nov 2, 2012 - 03:50pm PT
Corporate apologies are like ptpp apologies, insincere and meaningless.

DMT
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 2, 2012 - 04:26pm PT
Sport climbing is now nicely settling in with the same sort of maturity as Chlamydia.
Juank

Big Wall climber
Barcelona, Spain
May 13, 2013 - 04:33am PT
There is a strong discussion here in Spain going on with last Sharma route project in Montrebei (Catalunya-Spain). He is opening one of the most difficult wall lines in the world, or maybe the most...which is amazing, but bolting the whole 300 meters line in an area where bolts are restricted to exceptional cases.

http://sensepell.wordpress.com/2013/04/23/montrebei-sharma-project-ii/

Personally I am fine with his initiative but some people believe there is a wall ethic that must be preserved.
Comments are written in Spanish or Catalan, sorry about this.
Cheers
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
May 13, 2013 - 09:17am PT
When climbers were re-branded as athletes by the sponsors and paraded around in cute little teams this crap was soon to follow.

Climbing had long been the realm of the anti-athlete; a far more fit and adaptable specimen than the athlete!

Long live the climber!
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
May 13, 2013 - 09:36am PT
This is a topic that applies to mountains as well as rock faces. Many of the same arguments have appeared on the Fisticuffs on Everest thread. The visiting outsiders with more skills and attitude offended the locals. In that case, the locals banded together to stop it and then most in the international community cried foul, because of the threat of violence. Individual visitor's rights in that case versus the livelihoods of thousands.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
May 13, 2013 - 12:08pm PT
As the planet shrinks we must celebrate those who climb clean.

Do great things, leave no trace.


How bad do we need a V8 boulder problem on the side of El Cap? ...or anywhere?

If the local ethic is to rap bolt clean crack, that ethic is still idiotic, no matter what location

What Spider Savage said! Well, at least strive to leave no (or as little as possible) trace of your passage. Yes, leave no trace is an impossibility, but an ideal we could all strive for.


solution: hand drill.

I've seen Jim Waugh put a 3/8" x 2 1/4" in under 3 minutes during an August electrical storm on Babo. Deuce put an unknown size in 1 minute flat on flat ground. It can be done.

It is because you are weak and your skirt is blowing up in you face if it takes longer than that.

If you go to an area (that accepts bolts in the first place), you drill by hand, and go from the ground up there are far less chances to screw a route up and piss people off.

Better yet, 'shoes, shirt, and rack on your back' and do the damn thing without a single hole in a day and you gain respect from climbing peers anywhere in the world.

And, what rick d said!
adikted

Boulder climber
Tahooooeeeee
May 13, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
I agree with Todd upthread.....im proud to be a climber...not an athlete....in fact i started due to my lack of athleticism...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 13, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
I was totally down with the local ethic in Sweden - Climbing Cat's Cradles.

Credit: Reilly
ydpl8s

Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
May 13, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
Toprope Heaven - Courtesy MAKB and Mp.com
Toprope Heaven - Courtesy MAKB and Mp.com
Credit: ydpl8s
Magic Ed

Trad climber
Nuevo Leon, Mexico
May 13, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
This is why I love Mexico so much. We have miles and miles of big unclimbed walls and anything goes. You want to climb it trad? OK! You want to place bolts? OK! Ground up? OK! Top down? OK! No need to go through a committee!

The only "rule" we have here is we don't mess with other people's routes.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
May 17, 2013 - 03:53pm PT
Regarding my timed bolt placements, it was 47 seconds to place a 1/4" by 1 1/4" Rawl buttonhead (drill the hole and place the bolt) in Cochise Stronghold granite. That was in prime position everything laid out on a flat stone in the campground. It was pretty much the same in Yosemite granite. On route, I could generally place a bolt in a few minutes given a good stance. In sandstone, 3/8" bolts x 3" deep took about 2-3 minutes. The Waugh record of 3 minutes for a 3/8" in granite sounds amazing--don't think I could have drilled a 3/8" that fast in granite.

On route, it's all a matter of stance. Even with a pretty wired drilling technique, I recall spending about a very painful and tedious 1/2 hour placing a 1/4" Rawl on a ridiculously difficult stance on the Autobahn crux pitch (one foot on the tiniest smear, the other foot dangling, no handholds) because I could only get a few hits before having to readjust my stance (over the roof).
Messages 1 - 76 of total 76 in this topic
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Trip Report and Articles
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews