Discussion Topic |
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Katattack
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 23, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
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Hey All,
I work at Nomad Ventures in Idyllwild, CA. I found out what happened today on Tahquitz Rock.
A pair of climbers were heading up Angel's Fright (5.6) but got off route and ended up on Jonah (5.10c). The leader fell and landed on a flake, breaking his ankle.
They attempted to air lift him from the route, but the wind was too gusty (around 2pm you could hear the helicopter). They also attempted to lower a medic, but again--no cake. So search and rescue climbed up, lowered him to lunch rock, and they brought him to Humber Park. The rescue team kicked ass and had him down by 6:30pm.
No fatalities!
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Sep 23, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
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hey there say, katattack.... whewww, graet to know that folks are okay, from this...
thank you so much for sharing...
:)
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ec
climber
ca
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Sep 23, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
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'Been thru the injured ankle scene, bummer. Good all are alive.
When on 5.6, one must constantly think of staying on 5.6...
'Can be difficult to do.
 ec
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Sep 24, 2012 - 12:22am PT
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5.6 to .10c...
Such a common mistake at Tahquitz.
Glad it turned out well for everyone.
I was over at Suicide this morning (fending off the usual dogs & their thoughtless owners...see another thread...)...and watched a couple of young dudes learn about route finding and error correction on 'Graham Crackers'...the dialogue went something like this...
Lead: I'm gonna build an anchor here...
Belay: There's supposed to be two bolts at that ledge...
Lead: Yeah...I think I climbed past it...it's about 30' below me..
Belay: Climb down to it, then...
Lead: Just lower me....
Belay: No, just down climb to it.
Lead: No, dude..just lower me!
Belay: Downclimb....it's not a big deal...
Lead: So you're not gonna lower me? WTF?
Belay: Dude, it's only 5.6, right? It's good skills to downclimb..
Lead: No way! Lower me!
Last night, from a viewful spot, we watched 4 separate parties descending by headlamp off of Tahquitz via both the N & S routes....one of them topped out (Open Book?) sometime just after dark, then had to find the descent slabs in the dark...
Ah, yes...just another epic weekend at Tahquitz/Suicide!
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Sep 24, 2012 - 01:39am PT
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A friend of mine just told me about an epic he had a few years ago on Consolation I think he said. Partner, relatively inexperienced was leading and hit a ledge and busted both ankles. They managed to lower off and the guy crawled back to the parking lot on his azz, no rescue needed. Took until 10 pm he said, that used to be the norm.
Apogee - you need to switch after-shave, your attracting dogs!
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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Sep 24, 2012 - 01:55am PT
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It amazes me how SAR entities continue to risk thier lives plucking dumbasses off stuff. They should just leave the bleached bones up there as a warning to future parties.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Sep 24, 2012 - 02:02am PT
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That was a pretty retarded comment, even from a guy who calls himself Biotch.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 24, 2012 - 11:40am PT
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I don't think there should be a SAR .... for climbers at all.
Learn how to take care of yourself and your friends.
OK, call me dumb.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 24, 2012 - 11:44am PT
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You might be onto something guyman.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Sep 24, 2012 - 11:48am PT
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I'm with guyman an that.
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JEH
Trad climber
Ramona, CA
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Sep 24, 2012 - 12:14pm PT
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On Mountaineers wall I blew my ankle out after falling from a roof onto slab. I actually hung upside down by my foot when it snagged on a quickdraw after smashing into the slab. I got down with the help of my friends after rapping down on one leg for three pitches. Normally it takes an hour to hike out. This took longer with all the hopping and scooting. Eventually my friends had an intervention with me a made me get into a sleeping bag stretcher they made. They dragged me out through the flats and the rocks of the lower approach. Then I got in my truck and drove myself to the 7-11 for a slurpee. Then the Urgent Care clinic. If I would've had an open fracture I would've consented to a rescue. It was all closed up and we were all capable enough to get out of there. Calling for a rescue depends on whether you can help yourself or if you even know how. The main thing is you make it back down.
Edit to add- I'm glad the injured party made it down safely.
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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Sep 24, 2012 - 12:29pm PT
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Glad to hear things ended better than they might have!
When I was dating my (to be) wife, I took her up something 5.4ish for her first Tahquitz outing. I got off route, and went angling up a long runout slabby 5.9ish thing, ultimately reaching a belay stance without incident. I didn't tell my wife what I'd done, in hopes that she'd still be "thinking" 5.4, and maybe just cruise it. She didn't. She slipped and went swinging about 40 feet to her left, and slammed into a snag sticking out of the rock. She still has a few scars on her hands as a memory (33 years later).
That was her one and only Tahquitz route. She's a trooper, though...she did continue to the top. AND, she still loves me.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 24, 2012 - 12:42pm PT
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JEH.... I like to hear stories like that.
Gives me hope that climbers are still... special people.
I know it sounds cruel, but the no SAR is something I believe in.
Being able to handle "IT" has always been part of climbing.
If they need to keep calling out the choppers - every weekend- they might just want to charge climbers for all the expense.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 24, 2012 - 01:10pm PT
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Locker.... we need Doctors.
Im just saying.... calling out SAR is an expensive thing.
It will start to add up down at Riverside County Hqtrs... questions will be asked.
They have just started charging folks extra if you live in a FIRE AERA.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Black Rock City
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Sep 24, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
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I just spent my first weekend out on the rock after shattering my heel bone on a leader fall. My surgery was 5/8 and I was out climbing again just shy of 20 weeks. There was a lot of pain, but I was climbing. Props to my sweet and amazing climbing partner, Rob Yang, for leading me the whole weekend.
So, to the injured climber, take heart, you will be able to get back out there if that is what you want.
I have much to learn as a leader. I've had many hours to replay all the mistakes of mind and skill that led me to my downfall (pun intended). I was out on the rock with a partner who has 30 years of experience. When I fell, her response upon hearing of my complete lack of ability to put any weight on my foot was that a SAR response would be needed. I was horrified by the idea, both because of the immense drama that would entail, but also of the expense. I have totally stupid major medical insurance.
The next team up (thank goodness we were at a capacious belay ledge that could handle us all) were wilderness first response trainers. The leader of the third team up (an army reservist) came and offered an ankle splint he always carries. I had already taped my ankle up and the splint was further support.
We were able to self-rescue me. I crab walked on my butt through the descent gully and was getting into the desert when the army reservist showed up and carried me (!!! I am NOT a petite woman) back to the car, first over his back, then with the rope carrying harness made by the first response team. THere is NO WAY my partner could have carried me with that harness. I was willing to crawl through the desert back to the car and it would have taken another 4 hours to do that. 6 hours from the fall we were in the car on the way to the hospital. No stop for a slurpee.
It was due to the combined wilderness wisdom and amazing heart and courage of my partner, the first response team, and the army reservist that I was able to self-rescue. It is probably true that many newer climbers do not have the combined wisdom and training of 6 people, totalling many years of experience when they venture out onto easy to moderate climbs. Or perhaps, the physical strength needed.
Whew, a I just deleted a rant.
Anyway, if you are judging climbers on this thread, I hope that when you have been injured and have suffered past your endurance and you need a rescue, you remember your hubris on this thread.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 24, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
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I try not to judge too much when I hear about accidents like that, since I was once a 14 yr. old newbie leading stuff up there in a pair of tennis shoes and a rack of about 8 stoppers and hexes.
Still, is it me or have the number of clueless, hapless climbers increased of late? Even as a inexperienced teen, I really don't believe that I ever would have the same mistake this guy did. One, I think you'd have to work pretty hard to get off route on Angel's Fright. And two, even a blind climber would have realized the difference between that and Jonah pretty quickly.
Kind of hard not to fall into Guyzo's camp on this one.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 24, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
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But, Guyman, I thought this was a case of rescuing 'special people', not
just your normal 47% run-of-the-mill dumbsh!ts?
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Sep 24, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
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Climbing has evolved from an obscure niche activity to the sport du jour. Millions more taking part, only natural that rescue becomes more common. Same thing is happening with hiking. Sure, it would be nice to think we can take care of ourselves,but it will not always be the case.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 24, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
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Daphne.... glad to hear you made it out OK.
The folks who helped you are TRUE climbers IMHO.
I could relay a story of "what went wrong once the SAR got involved" but I won't.
AND
You know nothing of my own little stories.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 24, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
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Locker.... we need Doctors.
Im just saying.... calling out SAR is an expensive thing.
It will start to add up down at Riverside County Hqtrs... questions will be asked.
They have just started charging folks extra if you live in a FIRE AERA [sic].
I have to agree with Locker's perspective. If there are more climbers, there will be more accidents. Europe faced this problem fifty-plus years ago, and their solution remains: Keep SAR, but charge the party rescued for the services. This had the effect of promoting not only self-reliance, but rescue insurance. That way, SAR services remain, but aren't free.
I'll admit I have a lot of trouble seeing how someone could mistake the route on Jonah for that on Angel's Fright, but I first did Angel's Fright after I'd been climbing for seven or eight years, so I knew what was trivial and what was serious by sight. In contrast, my first year in the Valley, I tried, and almost succeeded, getting seriously off-route on a couple of very easy climbs, because I had no experience leading anything harder than about 5.6, so I couldn't tell 5.7 from 5.10 just by sight. I had to fall to know it was 5.10!
John
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Sep 24, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
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Guyzo blew his knee to pieces in the Gorge of Despair. We were up on a big back-country FA when it happened, and SAR was not an option. Getting off the wall was extremely serious but we made it.
After icing the hugely swollen extremity in snow for 24 hours, Guyzo strapped an ensolite pad around it and proceeded to hike the 12 miles out in a push, up about 4K over Harrington pass and down about 6.5K to the road. After he was done barfing we slept by the car.
The next morning he asked me what I wanted to do next? Perhaps go to the Needles for a few days? I thought he was in shock and had gone delusional, but he was serious. He was on hard earned vacation time and told me the knee would wait, I should pick up a partner and climb. All I would have to do was drive him in to the Ponderosa in the morning and pick him up later.
He got to know Red, the barkeep there back then, quite well.
Regarding the party on Tahquitz, I suspect they got off route fairly low down on the route? If they actually did the correct P2 (or second half of a long P1) of Angel's Fright, ending up at the long obvious corner it would be quite something to get off route.
Anyone know how far off the ground they were?
Glad it wasn't worse, & hope the guy makes a full recovery.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 24, 2012 - 02:31pm PT
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Locker's too nice. That analogy might be persuasive if we were talking about people crashing into each other. Here, we seem to have lots of folks getting into trouble without any interference from an outside party.
If you've made a habit of the reading the AAJ's Accidents in North America, etc., you know that people have been doing some really dumb stuff forever. (Anyone remember that guy bailing off the Nose who got his shirt stuck in his rap device and used his trusty knive to cut both his shirt and his rap line)? Between the gyms and number of people climbing nowadays, there just seems to be that much more bad decision making.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Sep 24, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
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"Self rescue is becoming a lost art."
esp. at Tahquitz/Suicide...
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Sep 24, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
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I don't agree.
Yes, we should be as independent and as capable as possible. That should always be the norm before heading into the wilderness. A first aid kit, some training and a plan for the unthinkable... Yet the unthinkable never can be foreseen, you really never are fully prepared and that's the kicker.
I remember a story of how Bob Kamps crawled a few miles out after being injured. He and his friends self rescued but that must have sucked. I am also thinking of Mal who needed to be helicoptered out after a really horrific fall. That also much have been mind boggling. I am grateful for SAR. I won't depend on them but... I am sure as heck grateful for them. I am not as tough as Bob, I don't think I can manage crawling for miles and Mal... Yeah, I am so glad that man is alive. I really like him.
AFS
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Sredni Vashtar
Social climber
Far West LA & UK
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Sep 24, 2012 - 02:55pm PT
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Theres a story from Malham cove in Yorkshire UK i love. back in the day, two well known climbers got benighted on a route and had to abseil off. the first guy went off into the darkness then after a few minutes called up to his buddy to follow
His buddy duly followed and abbed off the end of the rope falling 20 feet and shattering his ankle. he looked over at his partner who had suffered the same fate, asking why he let him come down knowing the rope was too short his partner replied that there was no way you would have followed had you known. they then both crawled a couple of miles to a phone.
wish i knew who that was
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 24, 2012 - 03:21pm PT
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No Slurpee?
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Damn this looks high
Trad climber
Temecula, CA
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Sep 24, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
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It's easy to criticize someone else's rescue. We'd all like to think we'd not need it in similar circumstances.
The description seems pretty straight forward on this one--have your partner lower you then rap the route. If you leave $300 worth of gear, so be it. Better to be self-sufficient. But I wasn't there, so....
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 24, 2012 - 03:54pm PT
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^^^^
I think the issue that many are raising is that the facts seems to be just that. The party could have probably rapped off on a single line. They coudl have asked for someone to climb up to them and help them rap, etc. It appears (and I understand that this may not be the case) that they didn't do much of anything to aid in their own rescue.
BITD, a buddy of mine on the Nose had a block shift and crush his knee when they were above the King Swing. He rapped off--15 full length raps or close thereto, on one leg. That's an extreme example, but it shows the lengths that people will resort to to self rescue.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 24, 2012 - 04:09pm PT
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Heay.... Don't get me wrong. We don't know about what went down at Taquitz last weekend. I am knot passing any judgment on rescue wright or wrong
All I am saying is that there seems to be more Chopper rescues now.
Heck I cant recall ONE ever in the whole decade of the 70's......
and some really crazy stuff was going on then.
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rokclimbah
Big Wall climber
Socal
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Sep 24, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
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I was on the first pitch of angels fright when the incident occurred. To their credit, the injured party (3) were actually able to self rescue and lower themselves to the ground while SAR awaited at the base. We stayed put on the top of the first pitch and offered help as they lowered by us but they were doing fine on their own. SAR's challenge was getting him down the steep approach trail since one ankle was very swollen and not weight bearing, and the other was minimally weight bearing. Copter came by but aborted due to wind; looks like they ended up belaying him down the trail on a stretcher. But since he appeared to be hemodynamically stable and was in good spirits, they probably woulda been fine with the help of a few more climbers to help carry him down. Nonetheless, SAR was on the scene remarkably fast and in large numbers!
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Sep 24, 2012 - 04:33pm PT
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Yeah, let's tell our good friends who's lives were saved by SAR teams that they didn't deserve to live due to the unfortunate accident that chose them.
When it gets heavy, there is only so much a partner can do.
Particularly shamefull comments here.
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Sredni Vashtar
Social climber
Far West LA & UK
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Sep 24, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
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I think i am correct in saying he French are quite happy to invoice you for your rescue.
I think we have a duty as human beings to one another and i wouldnt sit by and not help if i could but i also think we need to able to get ourselves out of situations we get into (self reliance seems really old fashioned). Calling mountain rescue because you are tired = hefty charge and a round or four of beers for the volunteers, calling SAR when you have a spiral fracture of the femur = accident, valid call IMHO
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 24, 2012 - 05:00pm PT
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Monday morning quarterbacks are in full force.
First heli rescue in Yosemite was robbins bailing out Harding.
Everyone can use a hand.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 24, 2012 - 05:13pm PT
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mucci.... why the hate?
please explain shamefull
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p-owed
Trad climber
Ramona ca
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Sep 24, 2012 - 05:23pm PT
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Crazy Saturday was my first time to Tahquitz. I dint climb anything just wanted to get eyes on the stone. I am planing to return soon. It will be my first multi pitch climb. I hope the injured climber get back on the rocks asap.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Sep 24, 2012 - 05:36pm PT
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Guyman-
Shamefull was directed at those who think there should be no SAR for Climbers, yet what about hikers who are experienced in self rescue, or mountain bikers etc...
NO hate here, just try and think back to when you were helpless to the massive trauma your partner incurred.
No amount of self rescue could have saved my friends life.
So, according to you guyman, and donini, and the other old dadz, he should have died.
That is shamefull, but from behind a screen the edge is not so sharp.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Sep 24, 2012 - 05:40pm PT
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mucci, I don't think any of them were suggesting such a thing. Ease back, captain.
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John M
climber
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Sep 24, 2012 - 05:51pm PT
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This is what he said..
I don't think there should be a SAR .... for climbers at all. .
Sounds to me like Mucci got it right.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Sep 24, 2012 - 06:24pm PT
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John, to clarify, I don't think that..
"...guyman, and donini, and the other old dadz..."
were suggesting that...
"...he should have died."
Capiche?
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Sep 24, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
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Without SAR, a broken ankle could easily become a death sentence under the right circumstances. I fail to see how this is a "good thing." Why not just make people pay for it financially?
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John M
climber
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Sep 24, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
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I capiche, He shouldn't have died. He just likely - would - have died.
Same difference if you ask me.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Sep 24, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
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i share the concerns over possible consequences of rising costs of mountain rescue in our current political climate.
but i don't see enough info yet to make a serious judgment on thisd case.
i've so far seen one sentence in an online post. early reports may be accurate or may not-- i trust that the op is being straightforward, and i appreciate the post, but i don't even know if the op was an eyewitness, part of the team, part of sar, at the rock on an adjacent route, or just relaying stuff 2ndhand.
i'm also having some trouble visualizing wehre this happened-- wandering out over onto that slabby bit of jonah on the 2nd pitch? that wouldn't be all that far off the deck. close enough it's difficult to imagine a helivac being an obvious response.
and even if the initial reports are accurate, i still don't know what "busted ankle" means. a bad break causing arterial bleeding would be really serious and potentially risky to self-evac.
a sprained ankle or a minor break would be an entirely different story.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Sep 24, 2012 - 06:55pm PT
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As a responsible climbing partner performing self rescue, you should be able to make a accurate assesment as to the life threatening condition, sight unseen.
If your not capable of managing the rescue, your partner is sh#t out of luck.
Right Guyman? Donini?
Please enlighten me as to what you both really meant with those comments.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 24, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
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Mucci.... sorry for your loss.
When I said "CLIMBERS should not have SAR" I really mean it.
It (SAR) makes climbers weak and not as fearfull, or thoughtfull as they should be.
It seems like people get a hangnail now and they want that helo ride.
Almost all climbers I meet say things like: "I want to go climb in Peru, or Patagonia or ?????????"
Well guess what.... NO SAR in those places, at all.
Having that helo at the ready, makes you complacent, I think.
But I'm just a dinosaur....
I still kan't recall if a chopper ever had to make a pick up at Taquitz or Suicide during the 1970-1980 decade.
Any of you old guys recall??? Locker, x15x15, cant say, levi..., app
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 24, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
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It seems like people get a hangnail now and they want that helo ride.
I would wonder what the reality is from someone in SAR.
Sometimes they do it even if the climber refuses, because certain type of trauma, like head trauma, it is a precation.
Unfortunately the world isn't so simple... Some of the baddest climbers on Earth have been helicoptered out, and many wish they could have been.
I still kan't recall if a chopper ever had to make a pick up at Taquitz or Suicide during the 1970-1980 decade.
Good question, a woman did bleed to death on Sahara Terror around that time. She was a REAL climber, though, by some definitions here...
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Sep 24, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
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A helo extraction is a choice made by IC, not by the victim.
Funny how often you see a helo...
Maybe that's because SAR uses all tools necessary to save lives.
They don't take chances, and I would wager a bet that they never even think about the cost of a short haul when a persons life is in question.
The first short haul in Yos was to pluck my good friend off of half dome.
Glad they didn't question the severity of that situation.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Sep 24, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
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Drivers have AAA towing, boaters have Vessel Assist, on water towing. Maybe it is time to privatize mountain rescue. Seriously, the rocks are packed, I am seeing dollar signs.
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Alois
Trad climber
Idyllwild, California
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Sep 24, 2012 - 07:34pm PT
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I have lived here in Idyllwild for 13 years now full time, climbed on Tahquitz some 39 years. From our deck we can see the rock and the heli pad at Saunders Meadow real well. In the last 10 years, almost every summer weekend there is SAR action or paramedics at Humber Park; I'm not kidding, almost every weekend some rescue action is going on. Years back, this just did not happen. It is NOT just more people climbing, it is what their skill level is that is the problem. I meet people every week, who guidebook in hand, walk the base of the rock and ask about routes that are on the other side of the formation,people who construct cairns on the climber's trail because they don't know how to get down etc. I pick up garbage Monday-Friday at the rock left not by hikers but us climbers. Tahquitz is a mess and building more trails and improving things will make it even worse. Unfortunatelly, people think Tahquitz is the best place for that first ever multi-pitch lead and with experience or without, they go for it. Notice that almost no accidents in the last 20 years occured on routes at or above 5.9.. skill level is the issue at Tahquitz...
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 24, 2012 - 07:57pm PT
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Alois.... thanks for cleaning up.
And to Kos... at a Motorsport event, part of what you get for your entry fee is Medical Personal, expectations of a safe track and some sort of order or control.
And Jon... $$$$$$ true. Even if it is in a round about way, just add on to the cost of park entry or that Golden Eagle and a percentage goes to SAR.
I figure when I go Skiing, at a resort, pay my $$$ and go have fun, one of my EXPECTATIONS is that I get a nice, cute Ski Patrol person who knows how to handle things when I break my leg.
But I never have that expectation when I go climbing, ever.
Climbing is so obviously dangerous that to expect any help whatsoever is to fool yourself.
OH YEA... to GDavis... that poor women died in the 80's
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em kn0t
Trad climber
isle of wyde
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Sep 24, 2012 - 08:53pm PT
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I just spent my first weekend out on the rock after shattering my heel bone on a leader fall. Daphne, very glad to hear you're back on the rock and thanks for sharing the story of your epic self-rescue. Friends and friendly strangers rock. I've looked online for the full story of how you fell and found nothing; understandable if you have self doubts about your accident. Believe me, I beat myself over the head on a regular basis for the mistakes that led to my fall & broken ankle. (Yes, I also self-rescued with the help of friends but the descent and hopping on one foot through the forest back to the car was trivial compared to yours.) Hope you continue to heal up and climb well.
As for the bigger picture on rescues, several thoughts from the peanut gallery:
HUGE RESPECT and thanks to anyone who commits time and efforts to SAR missions, plus all the training required to do so. I believe a lot of SAR folks are unpaid volunteers. Respect also for paid SAR staff, EMTs & paramedics; jobs that take heart, dedication mega-training and maybe crazy hours & hazardous conditions. Donate to your local SAR folks!
PAYING THE PIPER: For heli rescues it seems only right to pay the cost if some public safety agency is not covering it. Some medical insurance will pay this; apparently this was the case with a friend's wife who was injured in a long bike race and needed heli evac. Check your own insurance?
American Alpine Club (AAC) membership includes Global Rescue insurance:
All members are automatically enrolled in a $5,000 Global Rescue Trailhead Benefit and a $5,000 Domestic Rescue Insurance Benefit. .
In addition, the AAC discounts page has optional accident insurance which sounds pretty reasonable especially for young folks who get a deal on AAC membership and may have no medical insurance but few other medical issues:
Accident Insurance Benefit* Starting at only $18 a month, you can get coverage for all accidents no matter how they occur. This includes climbing, skiing, snowboarding, or any other sport that you enjoy. In fact, it covers any kind of accident 24/7 worldwide whether you’re on the job or just enjoying yourself. If you’re not a skier or snowboarder, plans start at $15 a month. This plan is a perfect supplement to any health insurance policy and is critically important to those of us without health insurance. http://americanalpineclub.org/p/insurance
SELF RESCUE: Often non-trivial. Few beginner or even some advanced climbers would have the skills or knowledge for self-rescue techniques like escaping the belay, ascending to a fallen partner, hauling up or lowering an injured person or doing a counter-weight rappel. All these are described in David Fasulo's book "Self Rescue" (Falcon 1996); there may be other books by now. Better yet, take a self-rescue course because this stuff takes hands-on practice to understand. Anyone know of upcoming self-rescue courses offered?
WILDERNESS FIRST AID: take a WFR course (or at minimum a basic first-aid class, but community first aid will not prepare you for non-urban situations.) Better yet make sure your primary partner does this too; like avy beacons, when the poop hits the fan and you're the one in deep doo-doo, it only helps if your partner knows how to save you.
Please forgive if this is preaching to the choirmasters; just trying to channel my inner Brutus and think what he might say...we did all of the above training and were glad of it. I only wish Brutus were here to bring his true wisdom and insane humor to the subject. Humble apologies for excess verbosity, misteaks or stoopidities.
Donning my fireproof turn-outs & helmet to survive the flame wars (glad I belong to volunteer fire department). Head down, broken ankle elevated & back to the wall at the old climbers home,
em of wyde
Edit: To clmbrbell, I hope you don't consider this post to be harsh comments or that I think the climbers were wrong to not be more prepared. Sh!+ happens, and I fully support the decision to call SAR in this situation. I for one would NEVER want to self-evac down the steep trail to Humber -- even being carried by friends would be hazardous for both the injured and the rescuers. Very best wishes to the injured climber for full and uncomplicated recovery.
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clmberbell
Social climber
the astral plane
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Sep 24, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
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Wow! Harsh comments. I saw the fall and pretty much everything after from The Vampire. They were attempting to lower and take care of their buddy. At some point he passed out. This is when everyone started screaming for SAR and rightly so.
Show a little compassion people...
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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Sep 24, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
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Alois +1 I agree I posted a thread on Mountainproject "tahquitz isn't for beginners" and was roundly thrashed for it. I still have that opinion. But I also realized telling other people what they can and can't do isn't the answer.
However I do know several climbers who have been climbing for a little more than a year who do have the skills, climbing ability, disposition, and desire to climb there. They were all mentored by X15X15.
Glad to hear that these climbers made it to the ground on there own. Hope for a swift recovery without mobility issues for the injured climber.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Sep 24, 2012 - 09:58pm PT
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Alois comments above are spot on.
I'm not saying that SAR should not have been called out in this case, but in general there are many rescues on Tahquitz, and skill level is the issue. Tahquitz is a dangerous alpine crag in perhaps too easily accessible a situation.
Sure once in a while something just happens by chance, but even in cases where "objective dangers" like rockfall are the cause it turns out that someone made the choice to climb a dangerous loose alpine crag below other parties. This is not a skillful decision. Get up earlier.
I have nothing but compassion for the injured climber and respect for the party as a group to get themselves safely off the wall into the hands of SAR, but getting off route from 5.4 to 5.10 is a skill issue and I hope that they are able to enjoy future climbs but with a bit more wisdom as to their route finding decisions.
Sorry to be wordy but route finding is a real issue at Tahquitz. Folks need to study the rock from a distance to understand the major features, so when they are at the base they can see where they are and where the routes are, and then when they are up on the rock they can navigate because they understand their surroundings.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Sep 24, 2012 - 10:01pm PT
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I saw the fall and pretty much everything after from The Vampire. They were attempting to lower and take care of their buddy. At some point he passed out.
thanks, that's helpful.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 24, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
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A broken ankle...a thread that should die after a half dozen posts.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Sep 24, 2012 - 10:43pm PT
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You were post #9 Jim. Just sayin.
This thread IS worthy. You can tell a lot about folks from what they write.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 24, 2012 - 11:35pm PT
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I am happy nobody died. We don't need that now do we?
Far to many this year.
I'm always interested in how people "TAKE" or interpret just what is written on the net.
Far to many miss it when the conversation goes up a notch.
New question/statement: SAR gives people a un-realistic portrail of SAFTY in climbing.
And to EM's execlent comments: You self rescued because you knew how to do that, you are a true climber, Tough and self reliant.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Pebble Wrestling.... Badly lately.
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Sep 25, 2012 - 12:14am PT
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Of course Guy, if we didn't have SARs I think Jeff would be dead now, as would my wife, as would Hershey. Be careful what you ask for....
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leopop
climber
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Sep 25, 2012 - 01:19am PT
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And yet another condescending string of emails about an accident. Climbers are such pompous as#@&%es sometimes. People get in accidents, experienced and amateur alike. People are hired and trained to rescue those people when something like this happens. Let's leave it at that.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 25, 2012 - 01:53am PT
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"And yet another condescending string of emails about an accident. Climbers are such pompous as#@&%es sometimes. People get in accidents, experienced and amateur alike. People are hired and trained to rescue those people when something like this happens. Let's leave it at that."
What are you stupid?
You calling us pompous ....
How do you think WE learn about just what goes down???????
Way back we did talk about this stuff, around campfires, long into the nite.
That is why we don't:
Set up anchors on one bolt.
Use those carabiner "Break Bar" tings.
Make long "sport draws" that are not bar tacked.
Carry runners over two shoulders.
and on and on.....
And now that we have a "internet forum" reaching around the globe YOU don't think we should talk about accidents?
You think its condescending?
Really?
I find that pretty odd.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Sep 25, 2012 - 01:58am PT
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Take it easy on leopop...that was their first (troll) post....
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 25, 2012 - 02:24am PT
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lol. Hook, line and sinker.
You calling us pompous ....
Speak for yourself. I EMBODY pompous....ness....iousity, and work damn hard to keep it.
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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Sep 25, 2012 - 02:42am PT
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Man- if there was no tuolumne sar I'd have to go back to illegal bivys again.
I agree- too many people don't have the skillz the should- but I'm also glad that all my sar and paramedic buddies have work!
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 25, 2012 - 03:06am PT
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I agree, many people are unaccustomed to climbing at tahquitz early on. I plan to remedy this by bitching quite loudly on a number of message boards, as divisively as possible, and hope that rather than be offended the suckling little noobs will bend to my will and become rock jocks.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Sep 25, 2012 - 09:30am PT
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I'm glad the guys who had the accident are OK. There was some harsh banter early in this thread. Give these guys a break - turns out they didn't call for rescue until the guy passed out. Sure, better decisions could have been made but sh#t happens.
Aye aye to Dave and Alois ^^^
There is simply a greater density of climbers with a lower skill set out there these days. More accidents are going to happen. Tahquitz is serious. Route-finding... especially on some of the long moderates is extremely difficult. People are lulled by easy ratings and it is not a beginner's area.
Anyone who joins SAR knows the deal and accepts the job. For every Vegas-guy dangling and having a seizure and off-route broken leg there are going to be yahoos calling because their feet hurt. Comes with the territory. I do believe climbers should acquire self rescue skills and not rely on SAR. SAR should definitely have the discretion to charge people for negligence.
Side Story: Years ago I had a climbing partner got off route.. on Angel's Fright.. into 5.10 territory... and fell... and broke his leg... probably in the same spot. He later regretted not just leaving a bail anchor and getting off the thing. $100 worth of gear left would have saved years of pain, $ and therapy.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 25, 2012 - 11:04am PT
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That was some Funny, focused, erudite, skewering, Gdavis!
Poignant, informative and helpful words as well, Em
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Sep 25, 2012 - 11:11am PT
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I agree, many people are unaccustomed to climbing at tahquitz early on. I plan to remedy this by bitching quite loudly on a number of message boards, as divisively as possible, and hope that rather than be offended the suckling little noobs will bend to my will and become rock jocks.
Well played, sir!
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Sep 25, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
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"There are more climbers today, there are more rescues."
"There is simply a greater density of climbers with a lower skill set out there these days."
Like many other ST greybeards, my immediate reaction is to conclude the latter, but a little bit of rational consideration makes me wonder if it isn't as simple as the former. Probably a combination of both.
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Alois
Trad climber
Idyllwild, California
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Sep 25, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
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Maybe what some of us learned from the old timers that tought us could help some of the readers here. This is what I was told repeatedly when I was just a teen (ages ago)
"Never - not even for a second - think that rescue is an option. Rescue is totally opposite to safety. Once we need rescue, we already screwed up big time and passed the threshold of disaster. Expecting to be rescued is totally irresponsible. Nobody owes us rescue. Let’s use our own backcountry sense and skills to make the kind of decisions that will make rescue unnecessary".
BTW I understand that accidents and problems happen. Climbing is a dangerous activity. But I'm very alarmed with the frequency of accidents on Tahquitz. I think Kris nailed it. It is not easy to follow the Tahquitz guidebooks when you never studied the crag's major features from a distance. People, especially the young climbers, please be careful out there!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 25, 2012 - 01:53pm PT
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New question/statement: SAR gives people a un-realistic portrail [sic] of SAFTY [sic] in climbing.
If we can refocus from blame to guyman's hypothesis, I strongly disagree with that statement at places like Tahquitz. I don't think anyone thinks "Oh, I can fall and suffer serious injury but I'll be OK because SAR is here." The real fallacy is the belief that climbing is inherently safe if the climber "follows all the rules."
In the primitive days when I started climbing -- decades before climbing gyms or sport climbs existed, I actually believed that climbing was relatively safe, if you placed proper protection, knew how to belay and rappel, used good equipment, etc. Then I started reading Accidents in North American Mountaineering and saw fatalities that could only be prevented by not falling, or not being on the mountain at the wrong time. A year or two after I started climbing, Madsen died rappelling, and Harding and Rowell had to be rescued from Half Dome, and I learned that excellent, experienced climbers were perfectly capable of making mistakes "only a beginner could make."
I remember the discussions about how the existence of rescues made big walls devoid of adventure in the late 1960's and early 1970's. Maybe they did, but it's too late now. As mucci implies, if we refuse to rescue someone in the name of preserving "purity" of the sport, we're condemning people to death to preserve our recreation. I find that immoral.
In truth, I think the biggest enemy of adventure in climbing is knowledge. When I started, we were so few that just leading 5.4 (e.g. Angel's Fright) could be something done in isolation, and a step into the unknown. Now, climbing on El Capitan is rather like climbing at a small popular crag; it is neither solitary nor unknown.
The problem isn't the presence of rescue. It's the absence of experience. Lest we get too smug, remember our own beginning experiences. The best summary of mine was given by someone else (I don't remember who [sorry]): "Good training, if one survives."
John
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Sep 25, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
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"I don't think anyone thinks "Oh, I can fall and suffer serious injury but I'll be OK because SAR is here." "
I'm sure that's the case...human beings, even in this day & age, have a pretty intact sense of self-preservation and generally try to avoid injuring themselves.
Once injured, however, it's the availability of rescue that probably makes the call for rescue so much more common these days...and many times, it's hard to blame someone for resisting that option, esp. when they are in pain, and don't have the knowledge or skills to try and deal with it themselves.
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Sep 25, 2012 - 03:05pm PT
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I know this is just a tiny thing but it's kind of bugging me:
(io) capisco - I understand
(tu) capisci? - Do you understand? (to a friend)
(Lei) capisce - Do you understand? (more formally)
Em, I was with Daphne on her epic day from hell, and have never spoken about it, as it only her story to tell. But that has kept me from giving her public praise for the MOST AMAZING grit determination butt-crab walking descent for almost a mile over steep rocky terrain. And it has kept me from giving public thanks to the two wonderful passing climbers who gave up their day on the rock to help us with what we needed most - a second rope to do the unexpected 3 raps down to the ground. And to the other party of three who caught up with us on the descent and their leader, an army ranger who carried Daphne the remaining half mile uphill to the parking lot. Accident around noon - out of the ER at about midnight. What a day!
Phyl
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Lord Wolf
Trad climber
west hills, CA
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Sep 25, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
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I was on suicide rock and watched them attempt to rescue the climber, We went into town for burgers and beer and ran into the man who broke his ankles, he told me he wandered into jonah and took the fall, it was his son, not the resuce workers that got him to the base of the crag. His son told me that a week prior he had been practicing self rescue in the trees in his backyard. Kudos to the young man who got his father out of that mess. on monday though we were on suicide and watched another chopper trying to get someone off the wall, couldnt tell if he did or not, does anyone know what happened?
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Magic Ed
Trad climber
Nuevo Leon, Mexico
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Sep 27, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
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While I'm all for the self-reliance thing, I'd be willing to bet that guyman has never been seriously injured while climbing and in need of a rescue.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Sep 27, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
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While I'm all for the self-reliance thing, I'd be willing to bet that guyman has never been seriously injured while climbing and in need of a rescue.
I have been with Guy when he was injured in a very remote place and he self rescued (a brief description of this event is posted upthread or you can read about it here.) Granted his injury was not the kind where you bleed out and die, but were that the case then he would have died as help was not readily available. His injury did make it very difficult to get off the wall, after which he had to hike 12 miles, much of it off trail in steep rugged terrain, while disabled and in pain.
His knee was the size of a melon. Many people would have stayed put and let their partner go out and arrange for a helo. It would have been a 36 hour wait minimum.
Guy is a friend of mine. He tends to say things with emphasis to make his point. I think he and I agree that in recent years, especially for a variety of reasons at Tahquitz, the number of SAR events has gotten out of control. So be safe up there folks.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 27, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
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I'm sure that's the case...human beings, even in this day & age, have a pretty intact sense of self-preservation and generally try to avoid injuring themselves.
I'll be honest, a few times in my career proximity to a possible rescuer has a part to play. I won't necessarily take MORE risks closer to a SAR, but I'll take far LESS if I am deep in Mexico (Pico de Orizaba - or did I just pussy you? YOU BE THE JUDGE!)
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 27, 2012 - 01:58pm PT
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^^^^
You need to go back and read earlier portions of this thread. Sounds like Guyzo endured a major epic to self rescue.
Another issue this thread raises, but which hasn't been discussed, is the willingness of other climbers to put aside their plans for the day and help injured climbers if possible. Back when Williamson was still open, a young lady named Anya (or something like that) broke her ankle on a lead fall. Me and a group of seven or eight other climbers stuck her in the litter and schlepped it out to the highway. It was grim, but she got back to her car without waiting hours for a chopper and got a comfy ride to the hospital in her friend's car.
I suspect that most of folks who have urged greater compentency as a means of avoiding rescue have very likely been in the same situation where they've participated in one, either by saving their own bacon or informally helping someone avoid the chopper ride. I didn't form my opinions in an armchair. I formed them in the field.
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Tfish
Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
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Sep 27, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
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I don't think anyone thinks "Oh, I can fall and suffer serious injury but I'll be OK because SAR is here."
People totally think like this. If you don't have cell phone serivce and are deep in backcountry you will prolly be more carefull than if you are at a roadside crag where if you get hurt you'll be rushed to the hospital in 30 mins.
Same sh#t with skiing and snowboarding. If you are in the BC, you're gonna be more carefull than if you are at a resort with ski patrol.
But I'm all down for SAR cuz sometimes sh#t does happen, but it should be a last resort after you've done everything you can.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 27, 2012 - 05:57pm PT
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^^^^
yups.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 28, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
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Kris is correct, I DoTendto say and make outrageous statements.
That is just me being me.
I try to state my objections to easy SAR callouts as follows:
I have some friends who were climbing the NOSE, their dream climb.
They were prepared for everything, had some storm gear, extra food and water and were ready to last about 5 days if nessary.
So on day two they were up by Great Roof and it started to rain- Hard.
So they hunkered down, to wate out the rain.
Next am, Two French climbers .... Rap in on them... Freezing, hyperthermic and demanding shelter.
Of course by friends accominated these visitors.... Fellow climbers after all.
They never did the nose, cause the food and water got used up.
The French dudes admitted that they gambled on doing the climb in a push, so miminal - Read almost none- gear or food water, and knew that if they needed help YOSAR would be there if needed.... "like in the Alps".
Bottom line for me, and I know others will disagree, is that the prospect of quick easy rescue makes climbers complacent about just how serious climbing really is.
One of the things I have always admired about the old time CLIMBERS who taught me how to climb and how this "sport" works was their attitude about being self sufficient.
So I guess this attitude is losing favor with many of today's "climbers" along with many other attitudes.... like boldness.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 28, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
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Dave.....
True, statement ..... but at almost all places I climb at have no cell service.
And one of the best things to shake out of this thread are the stories about CLIMBERS self rescuing and all the help fellow climbers gave them.
And last thing.... The hard working SAR teams, who risk their lives, rescuing folks, deserve all of our thanks and gratitude we can give.
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matty
Trad climber
under the sea
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Sep 28, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
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I Do Tend to say and make outrageous statements.
Guy is one of the most outrageous people I know. Can we send out a SAR team to bring him back to reality?
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Sep 28, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
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25 or so years ago I helped rescue a guy off Tahquitz. The litter was not where it was supposed to be so we ended up dragging the guy down the hill on a poncho in the dark. Not much fun for anyone involved, but we got it done.
People made stupid mistakes back then as well. There were just fewer people climbing and no cell phones. Maybe gyms have contributed a bit as well. But it's a stretch to go from that to no SAR. Sh!t happens sometimes, even to the well-prepared. And if the choice is between death or long-term injury issues, and calling for help, then having the option to call for help is a good thing.
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neversummer
Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
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Sep 28, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
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I recommend David Fasulo's "self rescue 2nd edition"...being somewhat green by most standards ive been learning some pretty good stuff from it, last weekend i worked a 2 bolt rte on rope solo w/clove hitch to setup a scenario of my belayer being out cold and having to make it to the top on my own and it worked like a charm.
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Sep 28, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
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Does anyone remember a rescue of a guy who took a huge fall (100 ft)
in the vicinity of the Trough in the late 70's, maybe even Feb 77?
Snow on trail, civilians carrying and sliding the litter down, meeting
the SAR guys at Humber Park?
I always wondered how that guy fared.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Sep 28, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
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Guy is one of the most outrageous people I know. Can we send out a SAR team to bring him back to reality?
Better make sure they have those black helicopters...
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tbailey
Trad climber
canoga park
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Sep 28, 2012 - 04:16pm PT
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heard you did the South Face on the Hermit recently. Did it a couple of months ago. On fourth or fifth pitch after short jam crack went right instead of around corner of buttress. we rapped a sling around crappy detached flake and finished the route up the face of the buttress. i left a nut to back up the flake. First booty left in 20 years. Wanted to go home if you know what i mean. Went to big baldy last week or so i thought. Five pitch new route, not Baldy, oops! heading to Whitney Portal tomorrow to do Strassmans route,and Bony Fingers again. Still hate getting to the crack after the bolts on first pitch. Curious as to what you thought about the south face. Bitch to get off.
Sorry dont post much, but as my friend says "shut up and climb' unless your with Gene mayo then its "listen and climb followed by Gene shut up and climb"
Later!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Sep 28, 2012 - 05:05pm PT
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Classic post Bailey!
We started on some ledges at the bottom, did a nice crack up to a lousy dirty chimney followed by a wide crack to a ledge. We traversed the ledge and climbed the huge dihedral in the middle of the face for two long pitches and then found an easy way to the true summit. One rap off the north side to the talus.
It may never be clear where Beckey and McHale started, there are two main options and they don't really seem to know which they did, but it is very clear from talking to McHale and also from Beckey's entry in the 1971 AAJ that they got up to and climbed to huge dihedral. In the green guide the photo of Miguel in that corner is right, but the topo is another route done by EC Joe in 1977. Basically I think the route called Charlie Knapp in the guide is the original S Face Route. Carson, Patrick Paul and Laeger did a Charlie Knapp Route on the Fin over by CRS, not on Hermit.
Hey check yer email...
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Barnesfam
Sport climber
Corona CA
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Sep 28, 2012 - 06:02pm PT
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Wow, where do I start? Daphne thanks for the kind words and support. I am "that climber" I am 52 yrs old and was climbing with 2 of my kids. We climb regularly but are relativley new to Tahquitz. First let me say I made a BIG mistake by not backing down on the last pitch when I new I had to be off the slab portion of Angels Fright. I am not going to justify my mistake because I can't.... I just want to clarify some details for the haters out there. We were setting up for a self-rescue when Passed out and rolled off the flake that I was sitting on. I was only out for seconds but 911 was called during that time. My 17 yr old set up the anchors to lower me to the halfway point and my 21 yr old rapped down with me. Then we set it all up again and we got to the bottom of the climb.
The Cal Fire crew was there by then and they are the ones that called the helicopter. I tried to tell them that I could make my way down the climbers trail and they said no way.
When the first 2 guys from Riverside Mountain Rescue showed up they told me to relax and not to worry about all of the commotion. They said it is what they train for. In fact, both of them had been on my side of the rescue. All of the Rescuers were amazing and they took great care of me.
My son Isaac did a great job with the rescue and I also beleive that you need to train for situations like this. He is my hero for sure.
I know that there are many who will read this thread and learn something just as I have. KEEP IN MIND THE RATING OF YOUR CLIMB. BACK UP AND LOOK AGAIN. BE PREPARED.
Thanks again to ALL of those that participated, Dave and his friend (Tiffany I think) on the rock, John the paramedic, Donnie and Wes from RMRU and most of all Isaac.
With much appreciation,
Dave
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matty
Trad climber
under the sea
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Sep 28, 2012 - 06:10pm PT
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Thanks Dave-
It's always big when someone in your position posts up on a thread like this with all the different opinions flying around. Glad your OK and got down safely and learned from your mistake. Hope you heal up quick and get out climbing with your kid again. My dad just got in town and were off to yosemite to climb so I know the special bond you have. Sounds like yo uhad the situation under control on our own and youre sons knew what to do. Good for them (and you). Thanks again for sharing and never be hesitant to retreat in the name of safety.
Matt
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John Butler
Social climber
SLC, Utah
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Sep 28, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
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Dave,
Glad to hear all's well, more or less. Best wishes and major props to your boys :-)
Jb
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Daphne
Trad climber
Black Rock City
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Sep 28, 2012 - 07:17pm PT
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Yay Dave! I'm sending good vibes for healing.
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Zander
climber
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Sep 28, 2012 - 07:42pm PT
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Good luck to you Dave,
Sound like you have a couple of good sons.
Cheers,
Zander
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 28, 2012 - 07:43pm PT
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Dave.... sorry to derail the thread at the beginning, but I knew that you were not all busted up- Cause I got a call about your condition and no "hate" was directed at you. If you got that impression I am sorry for that.
I admire you for climbing with your kids. I stopped taking my 15 year old daughter out to Taquitz primarily because I did not wish to expose her to hazards encountered at that place.
We go sportclimbing but that is "fun". Climbing alpine (I consiter Taquitz alpine) is much more serious, one can easily get killed, and I think you need to make the decision of risk on your own. Anyway she watched " Touching The Void" and now wishes to go do that stuff. I let her know that she willneed to learn many many new skills before we get on ICE....
But I digress.
You should be very proud of your sons for rescuing you and dealing with a harry situation.
I have been thinking about SAR, and some of the very expert opinions expressed on this topic.
SAR is nessary and if I ever need to have them rescue me I will be grateful for it.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 28, 2012 - 07:49pm PT
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There is no regret to be had here, only an experience that will teach you great things.
Hope to see you out there soon buddy.
Greg (from Nomad Ventures)
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Barnesfam
Sport climber
Corona CA
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Sep 28, 2012 - 08:32pm PT
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Guyman and Greg,
Thanks for your comments following mine. I know that things are not usually what they seem at first light and I am just glad that I had a chance to clear some things up. I met a lot of awesome people that day and I know that even in the many comments of this thread that there are people who will learn from my mistakes. It's all good and thanks to all for the good wishes.
Dave
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sowr
Trad climber
CA
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Sep 29, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
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Wow - some hard people out there who've never made a single mistake. Must be nice to be one of the elite. I've never been rescued waved a helicopter off the Matterhorn North Face in the 70's and one off Jacinto Snow Creek back in the 80's. otherwise never been rescued and always managed to cheat my way out of trouble. But I am a member of a local SAR and have no problem mentoring or rescuing. Times are different, if someone is in trouble in the mountains you'd better go help them, or you're nothing more than an animal seeking its own reward.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Sep 30, 2012 - 12:37pm PT
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It was probably around 1990. I was mellowing out in Humber Park with a friend after a big day climbing. It was dusk when we heard a distant cry, “help!!” from high above. It sounded like it came from somewhere way up near the top of the White Maiden.
I recall commenting that it was a nice warm evening, no danger from exposure, and wondering if I was going to be going up there. Then there it came again… “Help!!”
I was talking with my friend. “What’s the plan? Hike to the top, try to figure out where they are? Rap in?” It was becoming clear that this whole SAR thing was not really my gig. I could get myself out of a fix, but to go up and find and rescue another party? I was getting psyched for an all nighter when a Riverside County Sheriff cruiser rolled into the parking area. Someone from one of the nearby homes must have heard the yells and made a call.
The Deputy Sheriff shut off his car and stood there listening. There it was again… “Help!!” He went to the trunk of his vehicle and got a megaphone. Aiming this amplifier in the general direction of the rock, his first question for the stranded climbers was “ARE.. YOU.. ANCHORED??” I was surprised, he seemed to know something about climbing. Moments later an answer drifted down from up high… “Yes… We are on belay…”
The Sheriff raised his megaphone again, this time asking “ARE.. YOU.. INJURED??” After a pause, my guess is that they were considering the implications of their answer, the stranded party answered “No… No injuries..!!”
After a longer pause, we heard another call from the stranded climbers; “Can.. you.. make.. a.. phone.. call..?”
The Sherriff immediately answered “..NEGATIVE!!”
Later that night RMRU rolled in, and in the morning they were escorting the stranded climbers down the trail as we hiked up for another nice day climbing, seeking our own rewards...
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HighGravity
Trad climber
Southern California
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Sep 30, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
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Dave,
Glad to hear you're doing well. Both Wes and Donnie are great guys. Hopefully some other will read this and help out the team or join up. I have nothing but respect for RMRU.
http://rmru.org/
Eric
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Sep 30, 2012 - 09:44pm PT
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Glad you made it out with relatively little damage.
a few comments, some general and not particularly aimed at the specific situation.
As neophytes back in the day we were armed only with Mr. Wilt's terse one paragraph descriptions that presupposed the ability to recognize tree varieties by their Latin names. Getting lost was an ever present possibility. Approaches were punctuated at every clearing that offered a view of the days agenda with a stop and discussion of where the route really went. You got really good at not only route finding, but knowing when you were in over your head and didn't often commit to irreversible moves without a level of certainty about where you were going to end up.
The change really started with the advent of the topo and dependence on it. Topos on a peak as complex as Tahquitz will not only be often inaccurate, but always open to misinterpretation. This is particularly true of the easier routes. With the harder routes there's only one way possible and it's relatively obvious. With the easier routes there may be plausible deviations that lead to dead ends or much harder / unprotected climbing. Sahara Terror, (probably responsible for more epics than any other climb there) or the often missed traverse on Fingertrip come to mind. The mysteries are gone but the chance to really f*#k it up have been perhaps enhanced.
Taquitz is an ALPINE crag! Don't let the proximity of town fool ya!
Self sufficiency levels should meet that standard.
Trails,
you can blame the new North Side trail on me. The impetuous for that was carrying Woody down the Lunch Rock trail with a busted ankle and the realization that there was no way in hell anyone was going to be able to self evacuate with much of an injury at all down the talus on the North side. There was also the secondary purpose of eliminating the multiple erosion scars and trail braiding that was becoming evident. I've had enough of giving piggyback rides.
The guidebooks are written in exquisite detail, the thundering herd is here and so are the cell phones and radios. Nothing is going to turn back the clock on that.
One community effort that is needed is getting the Stokes baskets back at Tahquitz and an additional one over on the North side. Get a hold of me or Jim or anyone else involved with ICA if you can help out on that.
I have the tools and skills to patch up some beater baskets if someone knows of an agency that has some they want to dump.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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"The guidebooks are written in exquisite detail, the thundering herd is here and so are the cell phones and radios. Nothing is going to turn back the clock on that."
For all the whinging and monday morning greybeard quarterbacking that can go on here, that's a simple, realistic fact.
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anneke
Trad climber
Monterey, CA
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I am on a SAR team (Monterey County), and as the subject of this rescue pointed out, things like this are what we train for. We enjoy the work, otherwise we wouldn't do it. In a situation like this, especially, where a mistake gets made and the consequences are pretty dire, we're very happy to help. Of course, there's the odd situation (getting more and more common what with SPOT devices, cell phones, and GPSs that lead to poor navigation skills) when people get lost and call for help when they really don't need it. All too often, we head off into the night searching for someone who subsequently manages to walk out on their own--and never even bothers to let us know. THAT is annoying. Helping someone in true need? That's what we're here for.
As for you macho guys who say people who take up climbing should fend for themselves even they do get hurt--if you ever find yourself in a situation where you need help, I bet you'll appreciate it. Don't be so arrogant. Not everybody's as (for want of a better word) gutsy as you. Don't prejudge a situation when you know nothing about the people involved.
Read Dave's post to learn a thing or two about humility and gratitude.
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eddiesef
Trad climber
san clemente
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Angel fright is such an obvious line, how does a person get lost?
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YT
Trad climber
Alhambra, CA
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I was there at Lunch ledge when the accident happened. By the time we summit, my partner BL, heard the commotion that the victim passed out. We supplied the rescue team the SCMA heavy litter chained to the tree below lunch rock. But thankfully, SAR has their own light weight titanium litter. The picture of the 16 able body young men on their way to the rescue mission was taken as I was going to leave Humber Park. I admired the SAR team for what they do. This photo serves the purpose of gratitude and good will to the father Dave and his wonderful two sons. Speedy recovery!
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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"We supplied the rescue team the SCMA heavy litter chained to the tree below lunch rock. "
At the risk of thread-drift, I've always wondered why the SCMA chains their litter (and other accoutrement) to that tree. Seems odd...the only people that can use it (w/o cutting the chain) are SCMA participants/outings?
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Times are different, if someone is in trouble in the mountains you'd better go help them, or you're nothing more than an animal seeking its own reward.
Way too many variables there to be conclusive with that statement.
I'm glad everybody is safe as well.
Man, I miss California!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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And will somebody 'splain to me why those guys are wearing those astronaut
suits to hike up a trail in 90 degrees? And in case any lawyers are tempted
to 'splain me you can STFU.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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If I'm not mistaken, those are CalFire folks...they've been doing most of the responses lately..they are 'multi-taskers' of sorts...
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Thanks for posting Dave, and I am glad to hear that you are doing well.
The fact that you and your kids got off the climb by yourselves shows a lot of self reliance and saved everyone a lot of time and effort. It also appears that you were prepared to descend to the parking lot on your own, but were instructed to do otherwise. It is unclear what more you could have done.
I'm unsure why there has been so much criticism of the availability of SAR. Tahquitz may be an "Alpine" crag, but it also a few hours from a population of over 22 Million people, has easy access and is loaded with high quality routes at all grades. That it attracts an increasing number of climbers -- and that with more climbers there are more mishaps -- should be no mystery.
I'm glad that SAR is available for these crags, and am always happy when a "rescue" has a good outcome -- like this one.
We've all made mistakes while climbing. Fortunately, these rarely have resulted in serious consequences. But, just because most of us have been lucky, doesn't mean we should not be charitable to those who were not.
R Vogel
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SammO
Social climber
Ohio
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Donini must define his epic with Malcolm in a different category, or was he writing facetiously? Perhaps only serious climbers, attempting Important New routes, qualify for special rescue efforts?
Touchy realm here, confusing personal responsibility with Deserving Status as a participant in a Worthy Arcane Ritual. Maybe Freemasons get first dibs on the lifeboats?
First, as a poverty-stricken climber, I still maintained at least a major medical policy thru my most risk-prone decade. I especially resent even middle-aged climbers who fail to fulfill even this most basic of social contracts, spewing anti-social rhetoric until obliged to beg and plead for financial aid when they finally deck out. Personal responsibility MIA in these situations. Does guyman believe that medical insurance weakens you? Is this Aynn Rand goes climbin? Then, you take offense that someone calls you on this, saying "YOU don't think we should talk about accidents?" when actually you basically dissed anyone by virtue of their having an accident - how was you post in any way insightful? Must we all go back in time to join you in your campfire think tank when you solved the Riddle of all Accidents?
Second, noone who spends hundreds of days outdoors is immune to the vagaries of weather, rockfall, just basic coincidences, and the like; polished skillsets reduce risks, but climbers stubbornly then usually just up the ante on harder, longer, more hazardous things (ref: Donini & Malcolm).
Variants on outdoor rescue insurance are widely available, although not nearly universal in coverage; still, where it exists, it is a ridiculous bargain, and you may be both a jerk and a fool to not use it. See emkn0t's post for more examples.
Third, the reality in most areas is that vast majorities of accidents happen to non-climbers, and SARs primarily exist for them, outside the rarified example of Yosemite. A couple years ago, the same guy was evaced twice within a week in RMNP, with like a sprained ankle as the worst incident? Few climbers would be willing to suffer the embarrassment this hiker was immune to.
Again outside the Valley, most SARs deal with non-technical, mundane, ugly, foul-weather middle-of-the-night lost kid searches and the like, many times ending as body recoveries; beyond the 'copter charges, most are volunteer units, with all levels of training. Pay = zero, and you buy gas, equipment, clothes, etc. for the privilege. The majority of climbers never consider joining, because of the time and effort that could be used to bolt their latest project instead, and it is often fashionable to rag on how slow and retarded the SARs nerds were on such-and-such a mission. The fact is their methods have evolved, over decades, with a mission priority to "first do no harm" - to the victim, and their rescue personnel, and when an accident is serious, I'd take them over a disorganized, panicked, uncertain bunch of climbers with 5.12 resumes who cannot assess or deal with life-threatening injuries.
If the actual numbers of evacs have escalated at Tahquitz, or elsewhere, a) it is more likely a function of changes in early introduction to climbing as a simple, cool indoor recreation, versus a scouting adventure; b) how exactly would anyone be better off, should all SARs services suddenly vanish? Will this magically make all the accidents go away?
After the later attempts to temper his 'enthusiasm,' perhaps guyman can be forgiven a bit; maybe it's the old teacher in me, but I continue to aspire to post only if I feel I can contribute something to the conversation, versus just ragging to preen myself. The number of folks who seem to live in this virtual world for no other purpose than to denigrate others, or pat themselves on the back, is very disheartening, and provides a learning or sharing opportunity for noone.
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laurel arndt
Trad climber
phoenix
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I had an 25ft lead fall onto a bomber #2 cam this summer in Tahquitz. Tried to finish last 80 feet to top, but no go. Actually tried to get two climbers to aid me off, but they didn't believe I could climb out with a the foot in its condition. Ultimately got a ride on a fellow climbers back up the last 80 ft to summit, BUT still needed heli ride down, killed me to take it. CAL Fire was the bomb AND no charge (my AAC insurance expired).
I have only one observation, if Idyllwild Fire shows up for the ambulance ride down, RUN or rather crawl down the mountain. They are in the money making business, they tried to force meds on me and insisted on calling me a Trauma Level 1 patient which resulted in a $2500 ambulance ride to Palm Springs. I had no cell to call anyone for a ride, I refused oxygen/meds and have been fighting with them over an outrageous bill ever since than.
Last thing you think of is: "what ambulance is my insurance company contracted with?" (by the way ambulances don't contract and that is why they get to charge so much). I'll ask next time.
Lesson learned: .....if I can talk, I can walk.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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I continue to aspire to post only if I feel I can contribute something to the conversation, versus just ragging to preen myself.
you have clearly failed to appreciate the primary appeal of internet chat rooms.
heh
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