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Tradboy
Social climber
Valley
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 4, 2012 - 12:37pm PT
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Just heard that someone decked over the weekend at Berkeley Ironworks due to a draw failure. I don't have any details and figured someone around here would know more. Is the climber okay? What part of the draw failed? Few times I climbed there I had to close a couple of gates by hand.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I've seen deckings due a broken jaw but never one from a broken draw.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Maybe it was a falling test?
Good thing the ratings and floor are soft.
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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It's typical there to see a huge loop of rope from the belayer's waist to near the ground and back up when the climber is reaching above themselves to clip a second bolt with their body not in a position to fall cleanly. I think they teach lead belaying in a way that encourages a big loop of slack, not discerning whether that helps a leader clip quickly while up high vs. triggering a grounder down low.
I guess that has nothing to do with failing draws though :)
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Good thing the ratings and floor are soft.
hahahahahha
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Did the climber have a current lead license?
License, registration and proof of insurance please.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Sometimes hangers rotate 90 degrees or even further then get stuck in that position (like, just before an overhang) from the falls/lowerings. This can potentially put a horrible loading on a carabiner. There again, most gyms use burly steel biners or maillons these days....
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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backclip? For the sake of discussion I have pasted this from http://www.abc-of-rockclimbing.com/howto/backclipping.asp
Common Mistake No. 1: Incorrectly Clipped Quickdraw
Before you clip the rope through a Quickdraw, the Quickdraw needs to be clipped onto the protection. This can either be a bolt on a sport route or on a wire of your passive or active protection (nut or camming device). Ensure that is clipped in such a way that it hangs naturally and avoid that it will twist when the rope runs through it.
Consequences of a Wrongly Clipped Quickdraw:
Chance of dislodging the wire placement (especially on Traditional Rock Climbing routes)
Back Clipping
By the rotation of the quickdraw, the gate of the Carabiner could be pushed against a rock, whereby unclipping the Carabiner.
In all three cases, your fall factor will be increased substantially.
Common Mistake No. 2: Back Clipping
If the rope runs along the gate instead of the spine of the Carabiner, then the Carabiner can easily un-clip itself during a fall. This often happens with beginners as one is not aware that this can happen. In addition, Back Clipping can also occur if the Quickdraw is incorrectly clipped so that the rope's movement will cause the Quickdraw to rotate with the possibility to Back Clipping (see section above).
The consequence of Back Clipping is: your fall factor will be increased substantially.
Common Mistake No. 3: Z-Clipping
Z-Clipping does not occur as often as the previously mentioned mistakes, but it happens. It occurs when you pull the rope from below your last clipped Quickdraw (instead of pulling the rope from the top end of the last Quickdraw) and bring it up and clip it to the new Quickdraw. It may sound strange, but it really happens. For example, when the protection is placed quite close to each other and if you do not pay attention where you get the rope from. It can also happen on overhangs where you do not see the previous protection.
The Consequence of Z-Clipping is:
■In case of a fall, Z-Cipping has negated the z-clipped protection. This will increase the fall factor.
■Increased Rope Drag. In the worst case, this could cause the protection to be pulled out, increasing your fall factor.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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from first draw ?
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decked
Boulder climber
Oaktown
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The climber took on the first bolt and the webbing broke under body weight. C'mon Mark, start inspecting and replacing the draws on a more regular basis.
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crasic
climber
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The climber took on the first bolt and the webbing broke under body weight.
I call bullsh#t. They use beefy petzl nylon dogbones, unless that thing was physically cut through its not snapping.
HAHAHHAHAA^^^^^^^^^^ "z" clipping.....
I always thought it was strange too, and then I tried to lead in a gym after never having done any sport climbing indoors or out. With those gym draws spaced 5 feet apart its pretty easy to zclip, did it myself on my first lead lol.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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One of their lead lines is a 10-year old, well used line I accidentally left there once and they absconded with!
They fled with your lead line to somewhere else? Weird!
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crasic
climber
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None of the gyms I've been to loan out lead ropes.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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I've been to a gym that required the climber to use their lead ropes. They said they couldn't trust the climber's rope. Some require gri-gris. Others forbid them. Some disallow any knot but the figure 8. Some require the belayer be anchored. Others don't. Lots of odd rules at assorted gyms around.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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gravity is boss,
we are her employees.
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crasic
climber
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I've been to three that do. That's weird how experiences can differ, huh?
Indeed, but I'm not convinced its unsafe, as long as they are replaced regularly. The fall nature is well known (low FF lead falls), so they just need to be replaced on schedule (like the TR static lines as well) and its all good.
The only known instance of a rope breaking in a gym fall as far as I'm aware was with a personal rope.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Is there any more info than the rather insane sounding draw breaking under body weight?
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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HAHAHHAHAA^^^^^^^^^^ "z" clipping.....
I always thought it was strange too, and then I tried to lead in a gym after never having done any sport climbing indoors or out. With those gym draws spaced 5 feet apart its pretty easy to zclip, did it myself on my first lead lol.
I've done it before. The draws at my gym are sometimes so close together that the last one will literally be at my belay loop when the next one comes up.
Edit: Fortunately I figured it out almost immediately (so much rope drag!) and fixed it before I went any further.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Here in SLC/Sandy, at Rockreation, you use their ropes. At Mo, you bring your own.
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crasic
climber
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If you z clip from the last bolt to the anchors, it actually works out okay. I learned that watching a guy accidentally do that at the gym.
I would assume thats because you don't keep climbing above the anchor and therefore is just short Top Rope fall with a directional.
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crasic
climber
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The biggest danger with z-clipping is that if you don't realize you did it, the next bolt you clip could easily have a FF>1 because the drag in the z basically eliminates all the rope before the z in your dynamic equation.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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My biggest pet peeve is when routes outside are actaully bolted that close. Z clipping shouldn't ever be a problem since you shouldn't be able to reach past the last draw. Unless you have two riduculously hard crux moves back to back i guess..
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crasic
climber
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Its usually a problem on "beginner" or easy gym lead routes (<=10c), where they purposefully put clips SUPER F*#KING CLOSE so that new leaders (AND new lead belayers) can't deck onto the padded floor.
I didn't know about it until I did it in the gym. If you have a habit of high clipping (which they failed me for on my first lead test :rollseyes: ) its pretty common to have your tie in knot resting on the lower draw when you reach to grab rope.
When I took the lead test I spent more time clipping then climbing, there was like a draw per move.
ALSO
To draw this thread back on topic.
Did the event stated in the OP actually take place? Any details?
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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I've seen some manky draws at Pipeworks. Maybe the draw was flipped, and they f*cked with it and only clipped it through the rubber piece in the middle of the webbing?
...I've seen it.
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decked
Boulder climber
Oaktown
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It was a draw that had been in place for a while. Again, the climber asked for a take and the webbing broke at the screw link upon weighting it. I don't know it was pure body weight only, in that sometimes people take when they're above the draw and swing on the draw; it definitely wasn't a whipper. At the gym this morning, I saw more than half of the draws have been replaced with brand new ones with Touchstone lettering sewn in. The old ones are the pro type Petzl draws that you can't buy at stores. It's no coincedence that the gym just decided to replace the draws en masse. If any of this is incorrect, then someone from BIW should come out and say otherwise.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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That could never happen at Rockreation.
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Matt
Trad climber
it's all turtles, all the way dooowwwwwnn!!!!!
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whatever, the floors are padded! no injuries? quit whining!
besides, the 1st and 2nd draws would be the MOST likely to wear as the falls or even hard takes (as you allude to) would be relatively inelastic, as compared to the falls on the draws higher up.
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Tradboy
Social climber
Valley
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
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How the f$#@ is it okay just because no one got hurt? It shows a disregard by the gym for the safety of the climbers by not replacing the draws more regularly. I guess nobody will feel sorry for you if you get hurt due to a draw breaking.
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Trad, you have just been trolled. A Trolling Tutorial:
Troll: Person who wants to start sh#t on the Interwebz, usually found on forums.
Trolling: Acts of said individual, designed to piss people off and make them respond angrily and/or destroy the thread topic.
Solution: Don't feed the trolls and they will go away.
I thank you for the thread, this should be put out there as much as possible so that people don't walk into a facility that is poorly maintained to the point where things are failing that never should.
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