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irene+
climber
NY for now
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 24, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
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Early this summer I had my double ropes get stuck while rappelling in the Gunks. It was a single rappel and we were on the ground, so getting out of the situation was relatively easy and with no gear losses...which got me thinking of the worst possible 'knot getting stuck' scenario.
-Say you have just finished rappel 3 and have 7 more to go. (perhaps even being rained on at a hanging belay)
-Rappels are almost 60m each
-The free end of the two tied ropes is already in the air, far from your reach.
Scenario A: the rope that you have been able to pull before the stuck knot is >30m, but let's assume that leading on those 30m is not an option because there is no route/gear to place up to where the knot got stuck OR the climbing is n grades above your ability
Scenario B: (the rope that you have been able to pull before the stuck knot is <30m (this presumably is worse than A, because you can't possibly lead on that portion of the rope)
(Assume you have a knife ...) What would you do?
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Jul 24, 2012 - 04:12pm PT
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For Scenario B:
Not sure whether you specified this as climbable terrain, but if it is:
Reach the free end and pull to get unstuck. It's still running thru the rap anchor so you would be pulling the knot in the opposite direction it got stuck.
Do this by leading with the rope you pulled to reach the other end(free end) of the rope and try to get it unstuck by pulling on that end. If successful then you could be lowered with this free end (or downclimb) back to belay and try again. If unsuccessful, then you would have to downclimb and clean back to belay.
If you were successful, you may just want to get the knot past the obstruction, so in that case, you could not be lowered and would have to downclimb and clean back to belay.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Jul 24, 2012 - 04:16pm PT
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I'd use the East Ledges rather than rap 1900', but if we're not talking about Elcap, can I assume that I have a full rack? And that the rock on scenerio B is climbable?
Can you Aid up in scenario A?
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jul 24, 2012 - 04:22pm PT
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If you get stuck like any of your examples: Your screwed.
After trying pulling with the weight of the entire team, from different angles, and it's still stuck.
It's time to get brave and ready to die.
If you have enuf rope left over, tie into it and get on belay.
Take the rack and go hand over hand up to the problem.
If you can get a piece while going up... that's good.
Find some sort of anchor.... the hard part....
Free the cord and rig a rap from the anchor.
Go back down to the station and pull your cord.
Have a few smokes and ponder what you just got away with.
I always use the EDK to join the rope ends.
I always yell at folks who only untie 1/2 of a figure eight....
leaving a nice knot to get stuck or jammed.
Be carefull
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jul 24, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
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It depends. On a popular route? Maybe just shiver through the night and wait for some help. On a route with potential anchors every 15m? Cut and go. In the middle of nowhere and an unknown abyss below? Someone needs to go back up and get the ropes.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jul 24, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
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Worst cases scenario you try to yard up the rope it pulls and you and or partners die.
How to avoid? Patience and thought.
Is there a safe protectable way to get to where the rope is stuck and will it be safe to descend from there or somewhere safely accessible once you do.
If no can you continue without the rope or using whatever rope you have managed to pull.
If not is there rescue of some sort available based on weather and provisions?
In 20+ years I have never had to leave a rope and I have never gotten a rope stuck in such a manner that I had to take any severe risk.
Cause I am damn paranoid about stuck ropes and will do a lot of extra work if needed to ensure I don't get an irretrievable rope.
And a bit lucky perhaps.
Some things are best avoided at cost to time and effort.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jul 24, 2012 - 04:55pm PT
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As usual, Prod's wright!!!!
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Jul 24, 2012 - 05:04pm PT
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in Early 2000 an experienced wall climber on a multi-pitch wall fell to his death 350 feet while climbing his stuck rope, somehow it got free half way up.
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Hannes
climber
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Jul 24, 2012 - 05:21pm PT
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The only time I've been in that situation we ended up chopping the ropes. It was a night rap after lots of hours (about 24) or climbing and descending when the ropes got stuck. Fortunately we could get to the ropes from a safeish place at roughly their half way point. My partner started up the ropes in frustration before we realised just how dangerous it was and gave up. Our problem was that the ropes were over a fairly sharp slate edge and they were 9.1 mm beal jokers. We couldn't climb up the rock either as it was at altitude, in the middle of the night, no food or water for 15 hours and seriously overhanging crumbling slate. It took us a long time and many dicey raps with our 30m ropes before we came down to some reasonable sections we could down climb (AI3 to AI3+). If it hadn't been for the fact that our ropes were over the sharp edge we could have climbed up both ropes using a pair of prussics but it wasn't really an option. At least the blessing was that we didn't even managed to budge the knot to begin with. If it was impossible to reach the rope end and it wasn't comfortable solo terrain I would probably call out for some kind of rescue. If that was impossible I suppose some form of top rope soloing would be the next option. Worst case, ascending the single strand of rope until I got to the second strand. If there was a full rack one could always put some pieces of protection in with a belay capable of taking upwards pull, essentially almost a lead self belay to make it a little safer.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jul 24, 2012 - 05:37pm PT
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Leading up on the stuck rope is a brilliant idea. This topic scares the sh#t out of me and Im glad I have always got my ropes unstuck.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jul 24, 2012 - 05:47pm PT
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+1 stzzo and Hannes
anchor the end and aid up the stuck rope protecting as you move.
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jul 24, 2012 - 06:02pm PT
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+1 for stzzo, or simply belaying the person from an anchor if you have 2+ people in the party.
I've been in 4 rope-cutting situations (2 on the same epic bail). It's ugly, and it's one of the reasons I climb with 2x60m ropes by default. You do the best you can to cover the "what ifs" and pray to your maker for the rest.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 24, 2012 - 08:19pm PT
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Cause I am damn paranoid about stuck ropes and will do a lot of extra work if needed to ensure I don't get an irretrievable rope.
That's what I always did.
There's no other way.
For thought and always look for potentials is the only way .......
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 24, 2012 - 08:35pm PT
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Do enough long routes that you will have to rap and you eventually find yourself looking up at one end attached to whatever. Usually friction.
First you both grab on and yard on the rope like crazy. If it passes the safety test, somebody is going to have to go up there and free it.
That is when you play rock papers scissors to see who will have to batman up and free them.
Come on, Werner. Don't say that you've never done that.
If that happens in Yosemite, grab your Iphone, call the SAR rangers, and get online beta from the YOSAR helpline. The actual location of the help center is in India, but be well assured that they have a list of all possible problems.
In other words, carry a telephone. Rescue is so much easier with them.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Jul 24, 2012 - 08:42pm PT
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Can't believe it has not been said yet...
Yur gonna die!!!
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Jul 24, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
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Jump
Bend your knees when you land, it totally helps.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jul 24, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
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Big wall help desk, I love the concept!
The mountain project app is almost that. Post up a question from mid pitch and get the beta. Actually you could post on ST and get some entertainment while you wait for SAR
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 24, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
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I agree with the many others who say that ascending a stuck rope is almost always a last and frightful resort. I can also say, having retrieved some stuck ropes without having to ascend them, that what keeps them stuck can be horrifyingly little indeed.
It is worrisome that the constant somewhat intermittent loading of a rope ascent is different from a few quick hard pulls of two people bouncing on it. Far more worrisome, intermediate friction points may be preventing the loads applied to the bottom of the rope from from reaching the sticking point, and once the ascending climber passes those friction points, the rope may no longer be able to hold body weight.
If you decide, after very careful consideration, that ascending the rope is necessary, and if there is any chance to place protection during the ascent, then I'd suggest the Inchworm ® Technique. Actually, if the rap lines are hanging down ground that is very protectable, then the availability of the inchworm technique might change the party's evaluation about whether or not to try retrieving the rope rather than chopping it, since the retrieval process in that situation would not be so dangerous.
So, here we go:
1. The belayer ties into the end of the rope that is down and anchors.
2. The leader ties into the rope so that the portion from the leader up to the sticking point is taut. This leaves a bunch of slack between the leader and belayer. The belayer reels in this slack and puts the leader on belay.
3. The leader prusiks, hand-over-hands, climbs, aids, whatever, and not only advances a prusik up the stuck rope but also tries to place protection on the way, clipping the rope the belayer is paying out.
4. As the leader ascends, slack builds up in the rope ahead between the advancing prusik and the leader's harness, while the slack available to the belayer decreases. At a some point, depending on how much rope was originally pulled down, the leader runs out of slack from the belayer, but now has a loop hanging between prusik and harness. At this point the leader either hangs on pro, or on the prussik if no pro can be placed, and redoes the tie-in so that the rope from leader to sticking point is again taut and the belayer gets all the slack back. The leader is now back in the situation described in Step 2 and can continue ascending and protecting.
Assuming some protection has been placed during the inchworming, the leader will be exposed to "ordinary" leader falls rather than the huge factor-2 nightmare that would otherwise occur if the stuck rope releases while being ascended.
Obviously, if the rope has hung before the trailing end dropped free of the anchor and if, during the ascent, the leader reaches the trailing end, then prusiks should immediately be installed around both ropes, at which point the ascent will be "safe" since it will be loading the anchor.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jul 24, 2012 - 09:57pm PT
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I had to cut ropes once, in the dark.
Yeah, had a knife...and herb and other stuff but no headlamp.
We were left with almost one full ropelength(165) but couldn't always get to the next tatty station.
Off rap, downclimbing to the next station in the dark with a ciggie lighter...not fun. Over and over, many times.
Found out later the stuck rope could've been ascended, as it was used as a fixed rap for a few seasons after.
Basically, a bunch of barney mistakes led to that scenario.
Survived. Lessons learned.
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ramonjuan
climber
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Jul 24, 2012 - 11:22pm PT
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If its stuck enough that the only way out is to go up and free it then god help you, that would be some scary shite. On a side note. You can cut a rope by smashing it with a rock a few times if you don't have a knife. It works really good if you have a chance of rock.
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o-man
Social climber
Paia,Maui,HI
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Jul 25, 2012 - 12:14am PT
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This thread brings back the memory of the time that Steve Morris and I climbed Primrose Dihedrals on Moses Tower in the Utah Desert. We hung our ropes while rapping down the route "Pale Fire" at dusk.
I volunteered to climb back to the summit and fix the problem and Steve agreed to lead the rest of the decent if I did.
I had to use some unique techniques to protect this unbelayed pitch. A little free, a little aid you know the drill.
Fortunately I could still see the crack to place gear and we were above the crux of Pale Fire. The climbing was all crack until the very last slab section and that was fixed with drilled pins and bolts. Mostly it was very steep on size hand and fist cracks in the 5.9, 5.10 range. I would climb up until I got a good piece in and then hang on it and tie an over hand loop and clip in to it then pull the piece and climb on to the next placement and repeat the process and untie the previous over hand loop. I repeated this process until I reached the summit. I also pushed a prussic along as well but I barely weighted it at all. I trusted my crack climbing abilities way more than I did a piece of string. We also had the other end anchored well and I really had a sort of belay. Sort of?
I made it back to the summit and swiftly fixed the problem as a magnificent full moon was rising over the horizon. The entire desert was instantly illuminated. That is except for the face that we were descending. I will never forget silhouette of Moses Tower stretching across the expanse of Taylor Canyon.
By the time I arrived back at the ledge it was so dark that I couldn’t see my hand in front of my face. With no head lamp or even a lighter, everything had to be done by feel.
Steve set the next two rappels in total darkness. How he found those anchors I will never know.
While having breakfast at the Moab Diner the next day. Steve was asked what we had climbed on this trip. His reply was, “well let’s see, we did Moses last night.”
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Steven Davis
climber
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Jul 25, 2012 - 03:15am PT
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Just wondering about freeing a stuck rope--how about setting up a 3:1? The force applied to the rope would presumably be greater than two climbers bouncing on it. This is assuming that the anchor is bomber. . . .
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irene+
climber
NY for now
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 25, 2012 - 06:35am PT
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Thank you STopians...I'll print and study at work today...(although it is best to set up a mock worst case scenario rather than just talk about it!)
PS: at the Gunks if you want to set up a 'real' mock scenario, do a double rap after climbing Airy Aria (even the guidebook warns of the potential for the ropes to get stuck!)
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 25, 2012 - 09:47am PT
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I think it is bad advice to tell people to go up on a stuck rope - take that chance only if you are going to die for sure. If not wait for a rescue. A night of suffering is in no way worth a lifetime of death.
Agreed in general. But note that if it is possible to place protection along the line where the rappel ropes are hanging, then I described above a way (the inchworm technique) that is "safe enough" to be an option one might choose before the only other choice is "you're gonna die for sure."
I came up with the inchworm technique to retrieve a stuck rope on a Devil's Tower rappel many years ago, which is not to say others haven't figured it out too. However, I've never seen it in any book or internet forum, other than my own occasional posts, so guess it really isn't well-known.
Note that it is considerably more useful than merely leading on the end of the rope, a technique that limits you to the available slack pulled down before the ropes hung. Regardless of the accessibility of the the end that isn't down, you can inchworm right up to the hang-up point.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Jul 25, 2012 - 09:54am PT
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Gunks if you want to set up a 'real' mock scenario, do a double rap after climbing Airy Aria (even the guidebook warns of the potential for the ropes to get stuck!)
Sounds like the perfect place to peactice this not happening.
Prod.
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James Doty
Trad climber
Phoenix, Az.
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Jul 25, 2012 - 11:48am PT
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Good post Dingus, I "came up with" that idea for silent rappel comms while doing night training with military dudes. Keeps with the tradition of every technique serving more than one purpose.
Great post as usual from Rgold. That really is a nice twist on the usual lead with the available end technique.
THANKS FOR CLIMBING CONTENT!!!
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 25, 2012 - 07:36pm PT
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Dingus, absolutely do a full pull test on every single rap. That one seems such a given that I hadn't even thought of mentioning it, but it is easy to overlook the simplest thing:
Do your best to make sure it doesn't happen.
It has still happened to me a fair number of times on Alpine routes, which tend to have more broken rock,
Which leads me to a second lesson. Don't look up!! you might get a rock in the face!!
During my heyday, it damn sure happened. Ice pitches seem particularly prone.
If you are rapping serenity/sons or something like that, with perfect stations and clean rock, it should never happen. Set it up right and always shout out which color to pull when leaving the rap station. A good reason to have different colored ropes!!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 25, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
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Somewhat elaborating, the first person down should always do a pull test. If the rope doesn't pull, then take remedial measures. If the rope does pull, then off #2 goes. Most of the time, #2 is also last, which means the second pull test is for real.
There are a myriad of small things that one can do to reduce the chance of a stuck rope, many of which simply require a good look around, and a bit of experience and foresight.
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Steven Davis
climber
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Jul 25, 2012 - 10:11pm PT
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No one wants to respond to this?
Just wondering about freeing a stuck rope--how about setting up a 3:1? The force applied to the rope would presumably be greater than two climbers bouncing on it. This is assuming that the anchor is bomber. . . .
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Jul 26, 2012 - 12:05am PT
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O-man...the same thing happened to Gordo and I on the descent from Moses. It was a little earlier in the day though. He lost "the carabiner toss" and went up the rope to fix it. I watched the ropes, he fixed it and we made it down.
I was so glad he went back up.
I'm not sure if it was mentioned above, but, always extend the anchor to below the topmost edge if you can, no matter how many runners or pieces of chopped off rope it takes. It is amazing how much friction there is on sandstone. Get the rap point over the edge. ....and...always leave double biners.
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James Doty
Trad climber
Phoenix, Az.
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Jul 26, 2012 - 11:04am PT
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I read Ol Skool's link about Denz. What a friggin animal. Is there more literature/info out there about that guy?
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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Jul 26, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
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I believe a fast pull reduces the chances of hang ups, as the momentum keeps the rope going thru rough spots and the speed means the rope bounces off the wall reducing contact with hazards. One way to reduce the chances of a hang up is to use twin ropes, but instead of 2 separate ropes use just 1 rope, twice as long, doubled up. Then there is no knot to catch on the pull.
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