Discussion Topic |
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MisterE
Social climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 22, 2012 - 11:42pm PT
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Chuck Pratt saw this years ago.
There ain't no short-cuts here, and the natural talent is rarer than a unicorn.
Discuss.
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0ri0n
Trad climber
El Portal
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Jul 23, 2012 - 12:59am PT
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Yeah, its just like a top rope. Super chill ;)
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JoeSimo
Trad climber
Bay Area, CA
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Jul 23, 2012 - 01:12am PT
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In a very sick way I want to climb more off-width. I might need professional help
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 23, 2012 - 02:42am PT
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It's definitely all in the doing.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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Jul 23, 2012 - 02:52am PT
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Face climbing is where it's at, not cracks (of any size).
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skywalker
climber
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Jul 23, 2012 - 03:08am PT
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The Bastion??? No, but if you know someone who likes, or well likes, a good friend indeed!
Cheers!!!
S...
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 23, 2012 - 03:39am PT
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I did it . I sucked. Flailed on a 5.9+. I thought I was going to die. At least I finished it. Not my cup of tea.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Jul 23, 2012 - 09:17am PT
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I disagree, I think it is a necessary, and usually avoided, skill set that is required to be a well rounded climber. As is face, slab, cracks or all sizes, etc.
I have also heard it argued that it is where the climbers who can't excel in other arenas flock to. OW and aid.
Prod.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 23, 2012 - 10:20am PT
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Werner posted a couple of years ago (paraphrasing) "Offwidth is the least intuitive form of rock climbing".
And now we have the Wide Boyz from England Tom Randall and Pete Whittaker who have taken the art much further, adding another dimension entirely to this arcane area of climbing.
to wit:
Pratt's great dictum, "Technique is your protection" no longer holds completely true as a challenge in the wide with the advent of large cams. It was for so long a bastion of go-it-alone; something Pratt so very much related to. But Kevin is right, unprotected runout face and slab....both remain pretty much the way they stood back in 1970, still a "last bastion" while the Wide has been largely tamed. No equipment has been able to mollify that monster, the way really big cams have taken down offwidth.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jul 23, 2012 - 10:22am PT
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This shoe device is for aiding offwidth cracks?
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 23, 2012 - 10:32am PT
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Their Century Crack is a gigantically long horizontal offwidth that then turns the lip and summits out in a shorter vertical/overhanging cruxy bit. Don, while turning the lip and to avoid the rope getting pinched between the rock and a #5 or #6 placed just there, they put this "unit" in as a jamming preventer. I point this out both in fun (with which the WideBoyz are always working as well) and to point out their improvisational and creative powers at work in that truly groundbreaking ascent of theirs.
for more:
http://wideboyz.blogspot.com/
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 23, 2012 - 10:44am PT
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The Warbler's point extends to all crack climbs, with modern technology you can sew everyone of them up to the point of making them a "top rope"
so that would take cracks off the list of "true climbing" if that were a measure of sticking your neck out...
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 23, 2012 - 12:56pm PT
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More like the Last Chance for people who can't climb hard in any other realm. The climber avoids all of the pressure, competition and comparison present elsewhere in rock climbng - and in most other competitive sports. The whole thing is a lot easier for the ego, especially if you call it a 13 and get it in just a few gos.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 23, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
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I'm glad to have come of age in offwidth in the run-it-out days.
I dont think any upcoming wydecrackers will have that
opportunity, unless they learn their craft in minimalist rack situations in places like Patagonia or farther afield.
As far as the last frontier in Bold climbing, cragging anyway, I think it's in soloing and gritstone, runout slabs seems to overlap that...
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jul 23, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
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More like the Last Chance for people who can't climb hard in any other realm
Funny, I though Rifle was the place for that. Only place I've been where you can climb "5.13" without ever pulling a move harder than 11b. (although, admittedly, I've never clipped bolts in the Red)
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 23, 2012 - 02:06pm PT
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I'm glad to have come of age in offwidth in the run-it-out days.
Me, too, although the run-it-out days were in effect on slab and face climbing too, particularly considering some of Kevin's routes on, say, Lower Cathedral Rock from the mid-70's, or early Apron routes like Coonyard Pinnacle. And even without grid-bolting, climbing, say, Coonyard in today's footwear feels quite different from doing so in klettershoes, or even RR's and PA's.
I think, though, that offwidth probably will remain unattractive to most because, even with modern protection, it's one horrendous amount of work for the uninitiated; the ergs go quickly, and the grace comes slowly.
John
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 23, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
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Only place I've been where you can climb "5.13" without ever pulling a move harder than 11b. Which route?
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jul 23, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
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Pump-O-Rama.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Jul 23, 2012 - 03:08pm PT
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Anyone pulling down, finishing, on anything rated 5.13 should be proud in my book. You two need to get a room.
Specializing is cool if that is your thing, but the best climbers, ones that I respect the most, are the ones who can get on a route at their grade limit and go. thin steep face, OW, run out slabs etc.
Prod.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 23, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
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Pump-O-Rama. How many goes to send, compared to other 13's you've done? Can't say I've heard anyone wanting to downgrade this route, certainly not to an 11b. Pump-O-Rama does sit at the bottom of the 13a grade. It used to be a 12d/13a slash grade.
Whatever you want to rate it for whatever reason - it does have, basically, international consensus as a 13 - period. The only other area in the US with this kind of upper end grade consensus is going to be Smith.
I think the only OW with similar "consensus", if you can even apply such a vernacular to the OW world, is the Generator, at 10c, maybe Ahab at 10b? What else? Where is the international 13 yardstick for OW? There isn't one, there never will be and I think that's the way the people who do these things like it. Is this what makes it the "Last Bastion" - nobody knows WTF you are really doing, so you can make things up and call it hard?
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
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Jul 23, 2012 - 03:41pm PT
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For wide-crack aspirants, here is an OW technique I've seen the masters use: lift beer gut and wedge in crack, raise feet, repeat.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jul 23, 2012 - 03:50pm PT
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I think we're talking past each other on this one.
When you said "last chance", I envision older people or folks without a lot of power, and the enduro style on a lot of Rifle routes caters to that...if you can't climb hard moves, just go where there are a lot of easier ones in a row. Same with the Red I'd imagine. Power seems to fade with age while endurance seems to continue to improve (if Ironman comp winners vs bouldering phenoms are any indication)
Not arguing that Pump-O is soft or whatever, just that it doesn't have individually hard moves, it's a jug haul that I think takes well to having it wired and sprinting it.
The consensus thing is easy to understand, there aren't as many routes for one...limestone clipups are everywhere, not so much on cracks of a certain size and/or geometry...and the body-size-dependency is critical, OW for some will be fists at 6 letter grades easier for others.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 23, 2012 - 04:35pm PT
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OW for some will be fists at 6 letter grades easier for others. These issues exist with all types of climbing. The climbs still get rated. At the top of one's grade, it's common to seek climbs that "fit", others at the same grade may well feel impossible.
More on this "Last Bastion" silliness -
Would the OP's premise imply it's easier to learn to face climb well? Seems to me the OW bag of tricks is a much smaller one than a sport climber's, comparing 1:1 for each grade. What's that Steve Hong quote on the subject?
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jul 23, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
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Yup.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
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I say this because off-widthing is pretty much a fringe activity, not understood by society in general in a time when climbing is showing up all over the place in advertising, etc. It is inglorious, painful and a crapload of hard work.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 23, 2012 - 05:08pm PT
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I think Elcap is right about individual move difficulty, at least most of the time. Most offwidths challenge us because you have to make a straightforward move a ridiculous number of times in a row. Rather like liebacks in that regard.
John
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The Call Of K2 Lou
climber
Squamish
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Jul 23, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
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^^^^^^
Damn! Beat me to it.
Chopping the Compressor Route, and a Tosh web redemption for getting the sharts. There ought to be some sort of special ranking on 8a.spew for that.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 23, 2012 - 07:48pm PT
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John, that is very funny (“a straightforward move a ridiculous number of times in a row”) and visual too, but you are being simplistic, let me assure you. Not everything in the Valley is rated hard because it is enduro. And this holds true for offwidth as well.
Hard OWs are not just "longer Pharoah's Beards". They get just as subtle, tenuous, and hideous as any face climb of the approximate grade. Perhaps more so in that the OWs are so unintuitive, as Werner has said.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Jul 23, 2012 - 09:51pm PT
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The Last Bastion of True Climbing
would still be chalkless, barefoot ascents.
much as I admire all involved in ow climbing, doing a hard one (>10a) barefoot would seem pretty unlikely.
OW may be the most shoe-dependent type of climbing in the upper grades.
I got on an ow in some old worn lasers and couldn't take the pain/bleeding. Put on some old ballets--seemed like a # grade easier.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 23, 2012 - 11:45pm PT
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Odd comments from some... not sure why JLP reacted with the post:
More like the Last Chance for people who can't climb hard in any other realm. The climber avoids all of the pressure, competition and comparison present elsewhere in rock climbng - and in most other competitive sports. The whole thing is a lot easier for the ego, especially if you call it a 13 and get it in just a few gos.
perhaps because of the recent spate of 5.13 OWs being put up... of course, after how long? OW hasn't seen a lot of attention for quite a while.
As far as MisterE's provocative OP title "...last bastion of true climbing..." well, really what is true climbing.
For me, it's seeing a line and going for it... to do that in a place like Yosemite requires a broad range of skills, OW included... in past years, being like a lot of people and adverse to expending a lot of effort and time, I just avoided OWs... but at some point you have to learn something about the technique.
In the OP find the assertion: "There ain't no short-cuts here" and that is also true to my experience. Lots and lots of practice to learn the technique, which one finds generally applicable to other forms of climbing, just as one brings those other forms to OW... no surprise there, or there shouldn't be. But even though "natural talent is rarer than a unicorn" there are some "unicorns" out there, always have been just a few, and they did amazing things in their time, and the contemporary ones are doing it now... so I'm also not surprised that those natural talents are pushing the grades, and even doing it at a rather brisk pace.
Not being a 5.13 climber (at least not an outdoor 5.13 climber) I didn't know there was a "number of attempts" minimum for a route to qualify for the grade... seems strange to me that such a notion would exist.
How would you support a statement like: "More like the Last Chance for people who can't climb hard in any other realm. The climber avoids all of the pressure, competition and comparison present elsewhere in rock climbng - and in most other competitive sports."? How hard is hard? Let's put it at 5.15? 5.16? how many people climb at that level, and if they can't then you're saying they're slouches for putting up 5.13 and 5.14 OW routes? Like that is some pathetic thing?
As far as I've heard, the current "stars" of the OW realm have had loads of negativity dumped on them for their recent accomplishments, and it was definitely not "a lot easier for the ego" by a long shot. A climb like Century Crack is an amazing line, who wouldn't see it as compelling, a person eating Separate Reality only longer by about an order of magnitude. It's been there, no one had figured out how to do it until this last year... it is an amazing accomplishment.
New development in Vedauwoo is equally amazing, that area had been the arena of many OW masters, and the center of the universe of OW climbing, and new lines are being pushed at higher grades... a climb from the last generation, like Lucille still hasn't many repeats, less than 10? yet it's grade is debated as not possibly that hard... by people who haven't ever touched it.
Strange...
One night drinking beers at the Fish compound Russ opined that his favorite OW was The Living Conjunction 5.11d at JT... pretty tiny grade there, but as he observed "it's smeared with the DNA of the best climbers of the day who couldn't touch it" what's that all about?
Isn't it all climbing?
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Jul 24, 2012 - 12:03am PT
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at least one of those ow Brits has climbed solid 5.14 sport.
always heard Schneider was one of the best ow climbers ever...he also climbed 5.14 at Smith, 5.13 knobs in the meadows, big walls, one of first uiaa cert. route setters, etc.
not sure what got stuck in jlp's ow either...
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 24, 2012 - 12:56pm PT
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I didn't know there was a "number of attempts" minimum for a route to qualify for the grade... seems strange to me that such a notion would exist. That's pretty much it. The number of tries for a particular person is a pretty solid indicator of difficulty and is mostly what is used to get consensus in sport climbing. Most hard sends are accompanied by the number of tries and/or days of work it took the person.
If you have a climber who sends an OW in just a few tries and calls it a grade they possibly can't even climb in any other realm, or can't in a similar number of tries, most are going to think it's pretty much BS.
The "special talent for OW" card is a f'n joke - as if other rock types and climbing styles don't have their own unique demands.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 24, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
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Agree with your premise, Peter -- the harder offwidths involve difficult moves, not merely endurance. I've fallen out of enough of them because of difficulty, not lack of endurance, to know that.
I intended my comment more toward my own early years in the Valley -- I could get up a 5.9 OW or chimney almost as soon as I started climbing in Yosemite, because I was fit and strong, but I struggled up even 5.7 face and friction moves, and was wondering why wide cracks seemed so much easier to me. I think it was because the wide cracks that I did were largely problems of endurance and patience (I often felt like I was making about 100 one-millimeter moves to get past tough sections. In truth, I still feel like that often!), rather than small holds.
Ironically, after four years of bouldering at Indian Rock (no small amount of which was spent watching in awe as you, Chris Vandiver and Ben Borson opened my already wide eyes to what good climbers could do), I got very confident in face and friction, but never improved in wide stuff. It was only after I left Berkeley that I got caught up in the siren song of the wyde.
John
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Branscomb
Trad climber
Lander, WY
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Jul 24, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
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Will Cottrell told me once that there were a set of techniques that had to be mastered by extensive practice and humiliation to do off-widths well. I never had the patience to hang with it and learn them and after having the holy beejesus scared out of me on a couple of the hard man circuit offwidths in the Valley, I pursued face and friction which is more my thing. I have to respect thems that can do it well. It's a real mastery.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jul 24, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
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Not so sure I agree with the last bastion description either. I see it more like the last crack type I want to become proficient at.
I actually like wide cracks because they require such different technique than anything else, but yes, they are difficult.
The way I see it, if you're living in California (and a number of other places), if you don't become proficient at wide stuff, there are a lot of great routes you're not going to climb because there is a gap in your skills.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jul 24, 2012 - 03:27pm PT
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if you don't become proficient at wide stuff, there are a lot of great routes you're not going to climb because there is a gap in your skills.
Yep. That's why I started focusing on them, the std "work your weakness" approach, and a few pants-filling episodes on classic long routes. Then figured out I actually like them...most of the time anyway.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jul 24, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
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I have no idea at all how to climb offwidths. Try to get inside and squirm. If at all possible, layback. I remember flailing on the first pitch of DNB, a 5.7 flared chimney, which looked like the hardest pitch on the route. If there are techniques to learn, I didn't.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 24, 2012 - 04:59pm PT
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Ed, ignore JLP, he's a troll that doesnt need to be fed. He keeps parroting that line about the ow ratings with with nothing to back it up. This has been pointed out to him and he remains myopic. I don't know of anyone rating an ow 5.13 that hadn't climbed other kinds of 5.13's. Maybe he's sulking about the britts, but like has been said, they have experience in that grade range. However the rating shakes out after more ascents, i'm sure it will be seen to be in the right ballpark. But there will always be people like him who don't let experience with something affect their incidence in rating it. Maybe it's simply projection.
To change gears, like someone up thread said. Not all hard ow s are enduro, some have distinct hard cruxes I'd describe Squat, The Owl, and Paisano that way.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jul 24, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
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One thing is pretty clear - the days of run-out wide crack climbing are mostly over (unless of course you can't afford it). My own personal history includes many variations on 'A Boy and His Tube Chock'.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 24, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
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I don't know of anyone rating an ow 5.13 that hadn't climbed other kinds of 5.13's. Is this your best defense? I am talking about flashing them or redpointing in just a couple goes.
A 13 in just a few tries is a very rare thing, but seems commonplace in the OW world. I remain skeptical, to say the least.
I think the well known "hardman OW circuit" in Yosemite is pretty solid with considerable consensus - topping out around mid 12?
http://www.monsteroffwidth.com/climbing-misc/yosemiteoffwidths/YosemiteOffwidths.html
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Jul 24, 2012 - 06:38pm PT
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A 13 in just a few tries is a very rare thing
C'mon, you're going to have to do better than that.
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ImplicitD
Trad climber
Boise
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Jul 24, 2012 - 07:03pm PT
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I do all OWs on a TR since I have a secret weapon OW ropegun... his name is Weeg.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jul 24, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
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JLP's not trolling. I don't always agree with him (or her, as the case may be), but do think he's one of the more realistic and experienced voices on either here or MtnProj.
Is a strong opinion, forcefully stated, that you don't happen to agree with, what constitutes a troll these days? Really?
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Prod
Trad climber
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Jul 24, 2012 - 07:24pm PT
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I do all OWs on a TR since I have a secret weapon OW ropegun... his name is Weeg.
So your the silent partner he is always bragging about.
Prod.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 24, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
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Nah Will, he's trolling. He whines on this subject every few months. Has nothing to do with how he does or doesn't climb. Just the way he manifests himself online. My answer to Ed s question.
Like i said, Just ignore him and he fades away.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jul 24, 2012 - 08:19pm PT
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Ed said:
One night drinking beers at the Fish compound Russ opined that his favorite OW was The Living Conjunction 5.11d at JT... pretty tiny grade there, but as he observed "it's smeared with the DNA of the best climbers of the day who couldn't touch it" what's that all about?
I done the thing, on top rope of course.
Or as we like to say: "I fokked the monster" or ... maybe it fokked me.
What that is all about = sandbag.
But not a sandbag in the classical sense. Just a ludicrous rating really.
Don't even remember any offwidth moves (maybe at the start?). Although it is an overhanging maw, the crux is a tricky double knee bar torso swinging maneuver (never doing that on the 5.11+ on-site lead), assisted by finger locks as I recall. Then some burly DNA scavenging wide hand jams through a very steep flare to gain the exit.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jul 24, 2012 - 08:28pm PT
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Last bastion of true climbing?
Why, it's always been and will remain the pub.
Or Peter Haan whacking in pitons to protect an on-site free lead of Meatgrinder.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 24, 2012 - 08:29pm PT
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I want to check that one (living conjunction) out sometime when we make a foray to the south lands again. I've never even seen it....
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MisterE
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2012 - 08:32pm PT
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I think I may have to concede to The Warbler's point about hard, run-out slab.
Since the protection is pre-established and one must sack up to the standard of the time of the FA, it gets the win IMO.
I still think the combination of physical ability AND mental determination put OW in a strong second position, even with the advent of modern gear.
Thanks for all of the input, it's great food for thought.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Jul 24, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
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Yes Mister E, counterintuitive, but fairly accurate.
We might start out by mentioning slab as a joke response, but when taking a closer look it's the only thing that's really limited constraint-wise in terms of protection and does have a sack-up-and-go element to it, just like offwidth used to have.
Keep in mind it's kind of silly dragging a ton of those giant cams around for the one nice offwidth pitch one is going to encounter during a 9 pitch route.
So the things haven't been completely tamed.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jul 24, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
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Yeah, Tarbuster...just walking around the store with ONE giant cam seems a bit, I dunno, flamboyant or something.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jul 24, 2012 - 09:17pm PT
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Hey. Just a question for you OW folks-
Am I allowed to wear an old wetsuit?
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MisterE
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2012 - 09:28pm PT
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Only if you have hand-jammies and a snorkel...
were you expecting a gimme? ;)
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jul 24, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
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And here's a photo I took a while ago near my house.
I specifically had Jay in mind, and this seems like an appropriate place to post it, finally.
Widefetish guys feel free to rip it off if you like it.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jul 24, 2012 - 09:51pm PT
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want to check that one (living conjunction) out sometime
Bring your hanta virus respirator, the "living" part of it is a stack of guano about 5' thick and 10' in dia.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 24, 2012 - 10:54pm PT
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I like J's predictable response to being told he's not wearing any cloths.
Sex with a rototiller hasn't hit the mainstream either. Maybe a few of you should try it.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 24, 2012 - 11:10pm PT
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Hanta Virus, eh?
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MisterE
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 25, 2012 - 12:11am PT
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True climbing, ah yes. What is the root? The Base from which we launch all future endeavors.
A good question indeed.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 25, 2012 - 12:13am PT
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So JLP is a 5.13 climber who's done the OW circuiit at that grade?
Or is the comment just his/her opinion?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 25, 2012 - 12:26am PT
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Who knows? He said once that he couldn't talk much about his climbs or he'd be stalked through his appearances in "Hot Flashes," whatever that is. Perhaps he means he has a crimnal record similar to Jesus in 'The Big Lebowski"....
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skywalker
climber
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Jul 25, 2012 - 12:45am PT
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I don't have a direct comment. But I will say I completely sucked at crack climbing. Over my early years I knew I wanted to be a strong teammate and I focused on my weaknesses.
Years ago I onsighted Maxilash at Vedauwoo.
I puked at the top.
One of the biggest smiles I have to this day! Try that SOB!
Cheers!!!
S...
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Jul 25, 2012 - 03:41am PT
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I think we have to impose upon ourselves some sense of
the style and standards of our forebears, the masters.
I don't mean to be self-righteous. Hardly, but I would not
attempt Cream or Twilight Zone in a way so as to defeat
what was/is the challenge. When I fed the rope out and watched
Henry Barber lead Twilight Zone, he did so virtually
unprotected, in Pratt style. I was impressed. I
have to ask, what good would it do to climb such a route
with some type of big Friend or other device I could
slide up, as I went along? Would I be able to say I
did that climb? That I had ticked that one off my list?
No. I mean sometimes, as I learned, I was able to
do a certain classic and get something where others before
had not. Right at probably the hardest part of Ahab, where the
initial long chimney tapers down thinner, I
found a kind of hidden hole that took a perfect
baby angle, and I happened to have one such with me and used it.
I was capable of climbing past that section without that point,
but since I discovered it I felt to use it. I never had a sense
I was about to fall on that route and did it several times,
my first time with Van Freeman, then with Larry Dalke, then
with Peter Haan. The challenge of that climb, though, is to
find the technique that makes a route solid.
I had the good fortune of climbing quite a lot with Pratt, and he
was indeed the crack master. His physical being seemed to have
been made for off-widths. He was thin-chested but had wide shoulders.
So that gave him great leverage at chest level. He also had wonderful
natural technique. Often, strangely, when I expected otherwise, he
had me lead the crux, for example on the Right Side of Reed Pinnacle,
that off-width at the very top. He was happy to follow some of those,
and I was happy to gaze downward and watch how he did it. "Sick," he
said, softly, as he began that off-width. Then he made the
critical comment, "It lends itself to technique." Many have rearranged
those words over the years or quoted them as something different, but
that's exactly what he said, and it's the perfect, succinct way to
say certain climbs more or less bring out in one the necessary
technique or inspire one to be the measure of a pitch. It seems
most off-widths lent themselves to technique, when he was around.
I think I climbed better when he was there, and I felt his inspiration.
A Colorado climber must learn off-widths by coming to the Valley,
which I did. I started when Royal brought me in '64. The first real
climb I did at that time was Sentinel North Wall (which later
became known as the Steck-Salathe). Pitches found on that
great climb I had not seen before, and I taught myself as I
went. In short order, back in Colorado, I led the Crack of Fear,
virtually all free but for a piton or so (later realized that
could be eliminated by facing a different way at the crux). And
there were a few isolated off-widths, but still to learn a
true Yosemite off-width meant to go to Yosemite and be there.
I was always solid in Generator Crack, a warmup we sometimes
did when the weather was sketchy for longer climbs. When I led
Left Side of the Remnant, I had no trouble in the chimney-off-width
at the bottom, but my partner Dalke found that to be hideous.
He then floated the higher crux. He simply had not spent as much
time at such cracks.
Pratt, Mort Hempel, and I did the Left Side of Reed, and I
recall Chuck having me lead some part right at the top, and
when I peered over the ledge at the end of the crack I came
face to face with a snake. I asked Chuck what to do. He asked
what color it was. I said it had red on it. He said, "Don't
worry, it's just a king snake." I passed by as invisibly as
I could.... Again, though, I remember Chuck simply walked up
the whole route, as though it was some type of practice climb.
When Bridwell and I did the Left Side of the Slack, Jim was
in his element and in about his best form ever. My experience
that day was a bit like Royal's, when Royal followed Pratt. I didn't
quite get that little crux move, but I soon returned with
Higgins and led it solidly. Higgins was perfect in the way he
followed the crux. He didn't do many off-widths, but when he
was forced to Tom had the skill -- simply brilliant at all types of
climbing, not just face climbing, as some speculated.
In '68 I did the Steck-Salathe with Pratt, and by then I had honed
my crack skills. We made a relatively easy day of it, but still the
goal was to do each pitch properly, and certainly Chuck did. He was
so at home up there, on one of his favorite climbs. I put up a
few new routes in the Valley, one a bomb-bay chimney-off-width
up behind Camp 4 on that big wall. I called it April Showers,
because the insides of the crack had flakes that rained down on
my partner.
When you spend enough time in Yosemite, off-widths become familiar
and great climbing. When you try such cracks without the necessary
experience they can be a real horror show.... And once good at
such cracks, you can let years go by and get out of shape for
them. Bates told me he returned to the Valley and tried an old
play thing, Generator Crack, which he once could easily climb, and
had real trouble with it. He hadn't seen an off-width for quite some
time.... In his best shape, he was one of the best.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Jul 25, 2012 - 03:49am PT
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Jul 25, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
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thanks Pat, that was interesting.
But, didn't Higgins write about an ow machine he had on the side of his house?
It's entirely different to lead something with the pro available at the time (where technique can be included as pro) or to eschew pro available to you now. Some may rail against pushing a big cam, but I think Schneider partially did that while onsighting 3 hard ow on excaliber. He could elaborate/correct the record. Judging from the photos, no one in their right mind would call those pitches light, or well-protected.
Anyhow, the reason for doing these climbs in a "lesser" style is not for bragging rights, but maybe to have an up close appreciation for just how good Pratt and others were, while not taking on nearly the same risk.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Jul 25, 2012 - 01:58pm PT
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Yes, and I didn't want to say I am critical of
others for the way they climb. I speak only about my
own sense of things. It would only be to pretend, were
I to push upward a big Friend. In fact I can't even
imagine how one can push up a Friend on a really hard
off-width, where you need both hands for the moves.... But
maybe that's the only way a certain person could feel
safe or right on a climb. I would rather not do a climb,
if I am not the measure of it. Pratt was simply the measure
of those climbs, and I guess I want to help keep alive
his memory and what he and others did. It's so easy to
change the game, so to speak, invent gear that protects
what in the past was unprotectable. That's a good thing,
I suppose, but maybe there is a way to have both worlds,
and, though, of most importance to me, to honor the boldness
and ability of a spirit such as Pratt. In my old age
I might be able to do a few of those off-widths again,
with better pro, but not deceive myself into thinking I
am anywhere near what was done by the original off-width masters
or even near what I once was able to do....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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In my old age
I might be able to do a few of those off-widths again,
with better pro, but not deceive myself into thinking I
am anywhere near what was done by the original off-width masters
or even near what I once was able to do....
I feel exactly the same way Pat, the new gear takes the risk out of it for sure, and we loose a lot for that assurance.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 26, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
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I was looking at some old shots.... I found this;
Its part of Patterson Bluff, just east of Fresno.
Its to small to be a chimney and is about the max size for OW.
And I hear reports that it is now bolted, both of them.
Anyone done it?????
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 26, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
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The bastion of true climbing is being able to do multi-pitch alpine rock climbs where some expertice in ALL types of rock climbing is needed: face, slab, crack, offwidth, chimney etc.
Ineptitude in one area can mean failure .
Just so happens that offwidth skill is where most people come up short.
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matty
Trad climber
under the sea
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Sep 26, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
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Our own Jaybro might know something...
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 26, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
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Thanks Matty.....
I'll add to my bucket list.
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yosemite 5.9
climber
santa cruz
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Sep 26, 2012 - 07:47pm PT
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I am building an offwidth climbing wall of 2 x 10's with cracks of 3,4,5,6,7,8,9 and 10 inches just to figure out my foot jams. I hope to finish it this weekend and work out on it his winter so I will know quickly how to jam my feet next year.
I did this out of desperation from gettng so frustrated about not knowing how to use my feet in wide cracks. I can smear some pretty polished rock and punish my fingertips on dime edges in the 5.10a to sometimes d range, but crack climbing has been my project for a couple of years now. I think I have my hand jams fairly developed finally.
I still can't do the second pitch of the direct route on Reed's Pinnacle in Yosemite in good style. That's why my moniker is stuck at 5.9. If I can't do it well, then I can't claim to be a 5.10 climber.
So I have to work on offwidths. No way out at age 58.
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Sep 26, 2012 - 09:31pm PT
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Once you get up to 4 inches, the 2x10 is going to be frustratingly shallow.
Look me up.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 26, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
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I LOVE offwidths. My left knee has the bruises to prove it after doing laps on Galen's Crack last weekend
Pam's quote about it being "ultimate fighting against a rock" is so true.
And so worth it. Especially in Dickies....those pants are like velcro.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 26, 2012 - 09:44pm PT
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I'll take it Dingus.
One thing about not having the smaller weight on me that I want, it's helped in OW's.
More to jam in.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 26, 2012 - 09:50pm PT
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Y'all should have climbed those puppies BITD, as in, before you could slide huge cams up with you as chicken winged up to the sky.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 26, 2012 - 09:55pm PT
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Jim, wish I'd been there.
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Sep 26, 2012 - 09:57pm PT
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What's up with Todd Gordon and no knee pads . . . gonna get shredded.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 26, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
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I have a small butt and big feet, a good combo for OW's...of a certain size. Let me know if you ever get out this way Flouride.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 26, 2012 - 10:00pm PT
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Kali, how did you know if he made it off the ground?
Kidding...love Todd.
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Sep 26, 2012 - 10:09pm PT
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Good one Fluoride! He probably sent it with no gobies.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 26, 2012 - 11:13pm PT
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Offwidth... possibly the FIRST bastion of true climbing. Throw some elbows and knees in, have a sick core, and hope for the best!
I used to do a bit of grappling and it is the closest it feels in climbing to that kind of a workout. Great sh#t.
(I tried to figure out the lip on BBBW and was spit off repeatedly. Just playing on it here)
(yes, I realize for most Men these are fist cracks, but I have a hand of a small woman, BD 3 is almost teacups for me...)
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 26, 2012 - 11:19pm PT
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Greg, all those folks makes it look like a boulder problem :)
Kidding. Keep killing it.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 26, 2012 - 11:20pm PT
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The trick was getting them to hoist me up there for the photo in the first place. That's why I pay my friends to hang out with me!
Hope to see you bunches this season, like normal :) and your friend too! I forgot his name, but he is always a stand up fella.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 27, 2012 - 02:38am PT
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That would be Steve. Best partner ever. On the rock and off.
ps Greg - we never left JT this season or any other. Climbed through the summer in the late day shade, only saw other locals (hey there medium Sooze!) and the shady routes that are too cold in the winter were great this summer.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 27, 2012 - 03:05am PT
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No bolts at all on the one on the left on that flake (the Passionate Life 5.11+ 2 pitch) guyman and the one the right will now go without the bolts if you have several 9" valleys giants / bigbros.
They're both waiting for a second ascent after 15, 17 years respectively. Though I think Squeezo is going to take care of that.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 27, 2012 - 10:11am PT
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What % of taco posters can lead 5.9 wide cracks?
What % of taco posters can lead 5.9 sport climbs?
big difference
Ask the same question on a crowded night at your local climbing gym.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 27, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
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No bolts at all on the one on the left on that flake (the Passionate Life 5.11+ 2 pitch) guyman and the one the right will now go without the bolts if you have several 9" valleys giants / bigbros.
They're both waiting for a second ascent after 15, 17 years respectively. Though I think Squeezo is going to take care of that.
I first saw those back in 88 while taking the long way home from Courtwright, the wife wanted to kill me when we were going over those one lane bridges.
Truly remarkable climbs, long,bold and unrelenting.
Good job on the FA.
So there is a trail of sorts?
Any other climbs right there at the flake? - not OW?
My friends have done some climbs way down on the left end of Patterson, on a little chip of stone not part of the main complex.
They did a climb named: In Sickness and Stealth, 5.11,4 pitches of low angle, pure friction. Chris tells me its so low angle its ridiculous, looks like you could untie and walk off at any point... but you can't.
IMHO..... all climbing is TRUE CLIMBING but some climbing is harder than others.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 27, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
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I first saw those back in 88 while taking the long way home from Courtwright, the wife wanted to kill me when we were going over those one lane bridges.
Your wife would find an ally in mine, guyman. I first climbed at Patterson Bluff in December of 1970, but near the left end of the cliff with the flake Mark Powell first climbed in the fifties. There were OW's all over the place, and we did a lot of good climbs. We also cheated and used a bit of aid. Interestingly, I went back there alone in late 1972 and free soloed the route that I'd originally aided, so I guess my technique must have improved in those two years!
Sad to say, I haven't been back there with climbing gear since the late 1980's, although Jaybro and scuffy b allegedly head that way, so I'm rather tempted to head there again. The temptation is particularly strong because about half of the time, I can see Patterson Bluff quite clearly on my commute home.
Although the rock isn't the greatest, there's so much to do there, and the isolation reminds me of what climbing was like when I first started in the late 1960's.
John
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MisterE
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2012 - 03:21pm PT
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IMHO..... all climbing is TRUE CLIMBING but some climbing is harder than others.
That crap David Palmada pulled at the Fischer Towers is NOT true climbing, even though he was technically ascending a wall.
Point, counter-point.
Erik
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gonzo chemist
climber
Fort Collins, CO
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Sep 27, 2012 - 06:22pm PT
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"What % of taco posters can lead 5.9 wide cracks?
What % of taco posters can lead 5.9 sport climbs?"
who cares. I'll be out at Poland Hill in The Voo on Sunday. Heard there's plenty of 5.9 out there. Be there or be square.
I'll report back next week, with pictures of suffering!
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gonzo chemist
climber
Fort Collins, CO
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well I posted this pic already......but why not again?
getting started on Fantasia. Had to get a piece in before going right-side-in.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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While I only did it on top rope, I finally got Galen's this year. Going to lead it in 2013 now that I have the sequences dialed.
As Jay would say, take pride in the wide!!!
It's where it's at.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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nice send Fluoride!
donini asks:
What % of taco posters can lead 5.9 wide cracks?
What % of taco posters can lead 5.9 sport climbs?
big difference
Ask the same question on a crowded night at your local climbing gym.
don't know the answer to that... given that many have trouble with the little bits of OW on Sacherer Crack and Reed's Direct my guess is that the numbers for wide crack leads, even at 5.9 is small.
At the gym they would ask: "what does 'wide crack' mean?"
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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"Wyde, don't we choost climb?"
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Hey there Jay....any sightings of my pup there yet?
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frisbee
climber
{this page left blank intentionally}
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Feb 18, 2013 - 10:31pm PT
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Bump for the Wyde!
Question: Am I alone in losing my offwidth technique in the offseason?
We got a bit of a warm spell here in WY so I was out at Vedauwoo on Sunday in mid-February. Both me and my partner got jacked by Handjacker, 5.7+ offwidth. Our main excuse was the icicles inside the crack, but the real culprit was sloppy footwork and general thrashing at the crux. All this after doing pretty good last fall with Vedauwoo .9 and even .10a offwidth.
So, is it true? If you don't use it, do you lose it?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 18, 2013 - 10:34pm PT
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You don't lose it, you just have to renew it- the next time will be better.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Feb 18, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
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Ed what I want to know is who is playing the organ. The interpretation is uncommon and reminds me of an old friend of mine back in NY last named McNeil Robinson. He recorded a lot of the Bach works for Deutsche Gramophone, but they are not easy to come by.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 18, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
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Off -width
No sane man belongs there .....
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gonzo chemist
climber
Fort Collins, CO
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Feb 19, 2013 - 12:01am PT
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frisbee,
you hit up the Voo in FEB?? If you get another warm spell, PM me. I'm seriously jonesin' for some wide. Sport climbing in the Poudre Canyon just feels so lame in comparison.
edit: Ed, I've climbed Fantasia right side in at the start, then switched and finished it left side in for the rest. However, if you climb right side in (like Mike F. did) from the pod to the top, is it easier?
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
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Feb 19, 2013 - 12:07am PT
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got all three ow at pg sunnyvale down woohoo! stoked to go climb some wide outside soon...never thought i would say that...also never though I would be stoked to "climb" ow in the gym
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
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Feb 19, 2013 - 12:17am PT
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Why would ya wanna carry all that big clunky gear, wear heavy clothes, and get all barked up on your knees, shoulders and elbows when you can dangle on steep faces with a rack of ultra light draws?
Because...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Feb 19, 2013 - 12:20am PT
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got all three ow at pg sunnyvale down woohoo! stoked to go climb some wide outside soon...
Ummm...
Yer gonna die!!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 19, 2013 - 12:25am PT
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An appropriate mantra for alpine rock climbs...."go wide or go home." Not always the case but often enough to make OW a part of your repertoire if you're serious about the game.
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briham89
Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
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Feb 19, 2013 - 12:30am PT
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Ummm...
Yer gonna die!!
Lol walked into that one...but if you only knew how hard one of them is...and the other two aren't that easy.
Although my fondest OW memory is following my buddy up the FA of a 5.11b ow on the Sonora Pass. Not only was it the hardest I've ever worked per inch of upward movement, but the lichen filling my lungs made it even harder haha!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 19, 2013 - 01:46am PT
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the music is on an mp3 file I have in a folder labeled "Bach>Organ Collection" that has no further attribution... I acquired this from a friend...
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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Feb 19, 2013 - 02:32am PT
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I've crack climbed, and I've face climbed. Face is harder. Face is more aesthetic.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Feb 19, 2013 - 02:38am PT
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Off topic but in the dialog...
the music is on an mp3 file I have in a folder labeled "Bach>Organ Collection" that has no further attribution... I acquired this from a friend...
Don't you find this disturbing, that such unique performances can be passed along so easily without attribution (or remuneration?)
You have just given a perfect example of why the recording of music as a business is dead.
No continuity. No credit to the various styles of interpretation. All we need to know is that it is Bach. Beyond that who cares?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 19, 2013 - 03:12am PT
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I'm unhappy that I can't attribute the performance, I was wondering why I didn't put it on the video... I'll see if I can track it down.... there are bits of the play list there...
the demise of the record industry is not something I morn... but I think the artists should be benefiting, obviously this is a case where they aren't
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Feb 19, 2013 - 09:13am PT
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I wonder if Mike could play that on the violin. Once upon a time he maybe could have.
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willybeamin
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Feb 19, 2013 - 11:46am PT
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My favorite squeeeze/OW out in Josh. I climb them to get better because it seems all the good routes I want to get on have wyde pitches.
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Easy Wind
Trad climber
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Feb 19, 2013 - 12:15pm PT
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Grippa
Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Feb 19, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
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Great photo of Ahab
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Grippa
Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Apr 29, 2013 - 09:51am PT
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Darwin
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 29, 2013 - 11:06am PT
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Thanks for the photo grippa. Is that in Little Cottonwood Canyon?
(also that Ahab photo)
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Apr 29, 2013 - 11:09am PT
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People still climb offwidth??
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Grippa
Trad climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Apr 29, 2013 - 11:40am PT
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Yea Darwin it's LCC. This is almost the place in the Green A gully to be exact.
Jaybro - making my first vedaewoo trip in 3 weeks. Getting psyched!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Apr 29, 2013 - 04:36pm PT
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If you're into it enough to actually make the trip, you'll love it!!
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Apr 29, 2013 - 04:43pm PT
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nutjob
Sport climber
Almost to Hollywood, Baby!
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Apr 29, 2013 - 04:50pm PT
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I confess my ignorance... where is that one G?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Apr 29, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
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Near where squirrel bought the store.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Apr 29, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
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nutjob,
Its Travelers Buttress at LLeap
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nutjob
Sport climber
Almost to Hollywood, Baby!
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Apr 29, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
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Well, we just verified yet again that my mind is a sieve. I grunted with my chest fully expanded to hold in place on that, feet bicycling helplessly, some time around 1998 but I have no memory at all of the particulars.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Dec 28, 2013 - 05:06pm PT
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With all the OW aficionados posting on this string, I was wondering whether anyone has ever got up this OW near the pull out for Olmstead Canyon on the north side of the Tioga Road in T Meadows?:
Found it last August just before the Rim Fire blocked access to the Meadows. Elliott Robinson said he tried it back in the late 80s to no avail, so it must be pretty heinous. Anyone?
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Dec 28, 2013 - 05:16pm PT
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Stuff like this seems like another planet to an oldtimer who bouldered in the 1950s and treasured and practiced minimal contact . . .
Goes to show how diverse climbing is.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Dec 29, 2013 - 02:59am PT
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Saw a little chalk back under the overhanging start. Think you can see it in the pics. However, that just means someone messed around on the rattly off hands crack at the base, not that they finished the whole thing. Lots of people seem to be bouldering in Olmstead Canyon these days.
The way the weather is right now I bet you could drive to Olmstead if the Tioga Road were open, but it's NOT. Sounds like a whole lot of tape and 5.10 rubber knee pads are in order.
Just holding my breath and waiting to get back to the Meadows, the sooner the better!
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 29, 2013 - 06:32am PT
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It's more like a prison than a bastion.
More like a bastille than a citadel.
Come down off your throne, and leave your body alone, face-climbing is the key.
More freedom to move.
I pity you masochists.
In the wide, one cannot see beyond one's nose a lot of the time.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Dec 29, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
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In the wide, one cannot see beyond one's nose a lot of the time.
And that's a distinct advantage, Mouse-ster: OWs require a "necessary blindness" as Paul De Mann would have put it. As everyone learns after a while, 6 or 7 inches can make all the difference in the world.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 29, 2013 - 03:55pm PT
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Been to it a couple times, never quite gave it my All
...
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Dec 29, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
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Good to know that other fellow over-achieving masochists have felt the lure of this little-known OW torture piece.
Perhaps the publicity generated here will get it done next year? The "crisis" turning the lip looks like it could send you to ER for 3 days.
Your All may not be enough!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 18, 2018 - 04:42pm PT
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Headed to the mother land, Vedauwoo, next week!
Guided an easy OW this morning, here in metro Moab, before the heat of the Day, 104°. Enough is enough! longing for the land of the Earthborn spirits!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 18, 2018 - 04:42pm PT
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If you’ve mastered offwidth you likely have a bagfull of other climbing tricks and are not just a one trick pony.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 18, 2018 - 04:45pm PT
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I like to think so! Like Felix the Cat, you reach into your bag of tricks!
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| Messages 1 - 146 of total 146 in this topic |
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