Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
yo
Sport climber
Fresno, CA
|
|
It's a mistake to consider grades an intrinsic part of a route, as though the grade 10c appeared with OL when its crystals were forged a jillion years ago (hit me with the actual number, Minerals). Grades are a reflection of human beings' opinions about the piece of rock sitting there, and opinions change, baby.
|
|
yo
Sport climber
Fresno, CA
|
|
Schinkees, people, get a life. This is an instant messaging argument.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
SF Bay Area
|
|
...and if we let them, they will all get diluted...
Cool, I've wondered how long it will take me to lead 5.16!
Yo- Dude- you messed up the whole sequence right there!
=)
|
|
Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
|
|
I don't claim to have a life. It's raining, I have to work late, and my boyfriend is out of town.
I dug up this great post by David in response to the Ultra Classic Original James Boracho Troll, "Ratings, I Scoff"...
You must have had the same experience I did. I went in to the MountainShop the other day and out of nowhere someone grabbed me. I felt the nose of a hand gun pressed up against my ribs. I couldn't believe it. I was being held up at gun point! Some maniac wearing a ski mask with a SuperTopo logo forced me to buy a guide book with ratings next to every route.
It was horrible but it didn't end there. I decided to go climbing the next day and from behind a boulder the crazed masked man rushed towards me. He opened the guidebook to the page which described the route I was about to climb. He forced the page in to my face. I shut my eyes. I tried my best but I couldn't help it...I caught a glance of the rating. The number was burned in to my brain. The horror!!
I proceeded to finish the climb with out incident but the experience was horrible. With the rating in my head I could imagine and predict every single hold before I even got to that part of the climb. I don't know if I'll ever recover.
Was it like that for you? What can we do to stop this madness. Ratings! The horror!!
|
|
NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Soviet Monica, Ca.
|
|
This is a great thread!
I’ve been wanting to post about grades for the last couple of days as I’ve flipped through different guide books and pondered why the 5.9’s at JT seem so much harder than the 5.9’s at somewhere like Williamson for example. I guessed (and I could be & probably am completely wrong), that since the standard roof back in the day, when places like JT were ‘developed’ was 5.10, that most climbs put up before that standard was upgraded, were graded down from 5.10 (which I’m assuming at the time was an ungodly feat of super-human ability). When the standard was upgraded, all the old climbs which were set at the high water mark of 5.10 stayed the same, whereas new routes, (which were probably as hard or harder) were pegged at grades in the 5.11 - 5.12 range.
Disclaimer: My climbing in Yosemite is limited to a couple of routes, so my experience with the relative stiffness of the TDS in the park is limited. If I’m completely off course, please keep that in mind.
That’s what I’ve been able to piece together, although I’m EXTREMELY INTERESTED in hearing others thoughts on the relative stiffness (or Viagra-craving limp-titude) of the grades in JT vs. Tahquitz & Suicide vs. Yosemite vs. Lover’s Leap vs. etc…
This has been bugging me for some time, someone throw me a rope!!
|
|
yo
Sport climber
Fresno, CA
|
|
Yeah, I apologize for typing out of order. I got so gripped I had to go to another thread until the dust settled.
It speaks proudly about the Valley that we all bitch and moan about a route getting upgraded from 10c to 10d or whatever. Even OL at 11a is stout.
I went to Table Mountain in CO (I don't know why) and my climbing jumped a grade and a half. Instead of flailing on 10 trad, I was sending mid 12. I was a god!
The Valley, once you get down to it, truly is the center of the universe. Everywhere else is apostate.
|
|
NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Soviet Monica, Ca.
|
|
Holy sh#t, there were like 8 more posts in the time it took me to type mine. I gotta speed up.
|
|
David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
|
|
That must have been Chris who accosted me. That guy is always trying to force his standards on the rest of us. I wonder where I can get one of those ST embroidered ski masks though. Kind of a cool look.
|
|
NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Soviet Monica, Ca.
|
|
Yo, that's what I'm talking about. I was leading 10c at other crags, went to the tree and got spit off a 5.6 crack. Not only did I feel dejected the rest of the day, but I had to rope down from the top of the rock just to retreive my highest cam (tail tucked).
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
It's funny that there is so much debate about Outer Limit's being 11a. The 11a rating is for the second pitch traverse. Anybody done it? Wadda ya think?
Awareness of ratings change and I welcome it. Serenity was downrated from 5.11 years ago. It might seem like 10c or b if you know the beta and had climbed it before, but if you're onsighting and trying to hang out and place pro, it will seem different.
I onsighted a 10d that seemed light for the grade a couple days ago. That was a relief! I'd rather have overrating than be sandbagged. Actually, I had the supertopo beta which kept me from screwing it up.
An anybody who thinks the DNB has only one 10b move, or that Steck Salathe is 5.9 with tons of 5.7, they have their head in the sand.
Peace
karl
|
|
James
Gym climber
City by the Bay
|
|
Ratings are also area dependent...if you climb at a specific area you come to know the rock and a 5.9 feels right on and not "old school"
I went to the gunks recently and watched as my partner's feet cut loose on a 5.8...I nearly sh#t myself. The route was still 5.8 I just wasn't used to climbing that way...
The supertopos books and more recent guides are targeting more of a traveling climbing group and so they rate climbs according to a non-local perspective...If you haven't climbed a lot of ow in the valley Mental Block will seem like stout 10c but if you're local it will feel like 10a...
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
SF Bay Area
|
|
Hey Karl-
I have climbed the 2nd pitch of OL- it wouldn't be so hard if the route setter had given us some friggin feet in there!
I continued this conversation verbally last night w/ a friend who stated that so many routes have argueable ratings that you can't hope to make them all "correct", and in that context it seems silly to try.
I still say a Yosemite Guide Book should be rating climbs at Yosemite standards. Concern for the welfare of gym climbers and out of town travelers shouldn't determine the grades. I am all for "user friendly" guide books, but that should be limited to map quality topos and other good beta.
I can't wait to fimd out how hard Midnight Lightning and some of the other bouldering problems are these days...
|
|
Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
|
|
> It's funny that there is so much debate about
> Outer Limit's being 11a. The 11a rating is for
> the second pitch traverse. Anybody done it?
> Wadda ya think?
Done it twice.
10c with backscum/shoulderscum against the roof to keep the feet sticking. 11a if you do it wrong, try strictly faceclimbing. Its easy to make climbs harder. Just do them wrong.
Brutus
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Bishop, Ca.
|
|
>Hey Karl-
I have climbed the 2nd pitch of OL- it wouldn't be so hard if the route setter had given us some friggin feet in there! >
Actually he did... the foot hold is/was chiseled.
Couple of thoughts on Williamson being ratings soft:
Joshua Tree new routes: put up by the big guns of the era.
Williamson new routes: put up by LA softbodies in lycra who got spanked at Josh.
carry on....
Russ
|
|
10b4me
Trad climber
Bishop(hopefully)
|
|
one person's 510c is another's 5.6, but i digress. Never Surfaced, I've climbed at the Tree for many years. Have found that the 5.x at Josh was harder than 5.x at Idyllwild most of the time, but not always. On some routes I've found the 5.x in Josh to be harder than the 5.x in Yos.
|
|
NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Soviet Monica, Ca.
|
|
What's wrong with lycra?
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2009 - 12:56am PT
|
old skool bump with a couple good one liners from the Brutus.
|
|
MisterE
Trad climber
Canoga Bark! CA
|
|
Nice bump, Mungie!
It DOES get easier...I mean harder...Crap, consensus? That's what we get to argue about in the Old Climber's Home. Looking forward to it, but not there yet...
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2009 - 02:52am PT
|
my second post in that forum.
what's funny is that I haven't been on it. One of those routes I was 'saving' for the onsight attempt, but loads of years later and not any lighter, I think I'd just like borrow a TR or follow on the first pitch this winter. You know, one of those routes we should sample before...
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!